problems we can all see. >> all right. thank you so much. good seeing you. that wraps up this hour of nbc live. andrea mitchell reports starts now. right now, rising from the ashes. the world grieves with france as a catastrophic fire rips through the heart of paris. >> the tragedy like this has to happen during holy week and passover. not bad. the say krecred message of both those is from dying, comes rising. ♪ at home. fear and loathing in the white house. trump staffers worrying about what robert mueller might reveal

about their own admissions to his investigators and how the president will react. >> the concern is the president will lash out. people around him will start to criticize and they will be targeted. coming out in a candid conversation. presidential candidate shares his personal journey with his sexuality and how his military service encourage him to come out. >> it was the deployment that put me over the top. you only get to be one person. by the time i came back, i got to do something. good day. notre dame still stands. it's famous stain glass rose

windows surviving the ravages of the fire. in the light of dawn it's clear the walls are structurally challenged. the wooden roof and intierior reduced to ashes. the flames are finally extinguished with no fatalities and a few injuries among the he officers. the twin bell still intact. the crown of thorns worn by jesus on the rose were saved. they were shifting their focus to construction workers working on a renovation. the french people in the wake of

viole violent anti-government valrallg around their president. telling the world we will rebuild because it's what the french expect of us. it's what our history deserves. the hail mary could be heard in the cities and the streets. ♪

overnight with the light of dawn, as we say. a lot is revealed. some hope but also grave concerns about future of the cathedral. >> reporter: as you mentioned, the big concern right now is about the structural integrity of the cathedral. yes, it's still here. it didn't burn down as many feared last night as the french government warned the world it might happen. because the roof burned, because the spire skracrashed into the center of the church. the crashing of the spire sent a shock wave through the building. the loss of the roof upset the structural nature of the building and there's a concern it could shift. it kboucould be a collapse. they are focusing on the northern corner. you can see there's a crane. if you zoom in on that crane,

you'll see construction workers there using a drill to remove one of the statues. that's a statue that's hanging in a very precarious position right over that area that they fear is the most structurally damaged at the moment and as a precaution to the public, authorities here have evacuated five residential buildings all around that northern end. this is what's going on here today. they are trying to hold this building together. picking off parts that could fall to the ground as they pick through clues to figure out what happened. investigators questioned 15 construction workers who are on the scaffolding last night working on the cathedral. they think it was there where this fire began almost 24 hours ago. >> richard, those of us here in washington remember what is a minor cause, the earthquake a

number of years ago. the national monument still being rebuilt. union station is still years and years later. this is so much more epic and the symbol that notre dame represents. it's inconceivable. will they rebuild with wooden timbers as the structure demands and commands or will they go to concrete? lots of big decisions coming up ahead. >> reporter: there's already a debate if they should try to replicate replicate what was there. they have 3-d scans. they should keep with adding new additions. spire was a relatively new feature. that's something that will be a debate in this country going forward for years.

right now there is not just the talk about how the new cathedral will look. there's a concern about saving it as it is. the roof is gone. it was made of timber. it was made of so many timbers it was nicknamed the forest. that like a top, has left the bottom wobbly and unstable. they are lifting the statue before it falls to the ground, hurts anyone and destroyed. >> this whole experience has been so heartbreaking for people around the world. pope francis tweeting today. today we unite in prayer with the people of france as we wait for the sorrow inflicted by the serious damage to be transformed into hope with reconstruction. ann thaompson, you and george

understand this. a magnet for tourism of lovers of art. the extraordinary stain glass windows. talk to us about that. >> i think notre dame was not just a tourist attraction but it was a spiritual magnet. it's just awe inspiring. everything makes you look upw d upward. when the light comes through, it really takes your breath away. you have the spiritual of the

church. then you have the cultural significance of this building. you think of all thoese things and you begin to understand why it's just not paris. it's not just the french people. it's people around the world who look at this building and it symbolizes and means so much to all of us. i think that's why all of us are very sad. then, of course, it happens during holy week. a week where the christian world remembers the death of jesus christ and then his resurrection on easter sunday and here you have the death of the church and now they are talking about its resurrection. it's very, very powerful.

>> this is an icon for people of all faiths. >> it absolutely is. >> it's become an icon, not only of faith. it's a church. it's a house of prayer and community. it's also an icon of art, poetry, literature, french pride and gratitude. french identity. it almost becomes the icon or what we call civilization. everything that is best, most uplifting and ennobling of the human project seems to go up with those spires that are now damaged. it really is an icon for what's best in human nature. >> ann, as you and others have pointed out, kenneth clark in civilization, the great bbc series back in the '60s, he began the first episode of

civilization in front of notre da dame. let's watch. >> what is civilization? i don't know. i can't define it in abstract terms yet but i think i can recognize it when i see it and i'm looking at it now. >> george, it was you who first mentioned this yesterday as ann and our colleague were involved in the live coverage and we didn't know whether notre dame would stand today. your thoughts about the significance of the art, the architecture and as ann mentioned all these innovations that lift us up as we walk in. >> about midnight looast night got an e-mail from a friend in paris.

it said we shall rebuild and not with stones. i think france is being asked to ponder the true roots of its civilization which doesn't just go back to the french revolution. it goes back to the stories from the old testament that were captured in glass and stone. it goes back to the new testament stories that were lived by christians there week. all of us sense grief and lost loss as we share the hopes of our friends that this magnificent testimony to faith and the power of faith to illicit beauty will be rebuilt. >> even in our country, our very young country, as we replicate these gothic cathedrals, i was

in the national cathedral sunday for the mozart. every seat was taken. there is something about the artistic education presentation of those gothic structures that lift us up. that just brings us closer to god whether we feel it in a spiritual religious or secular sense. >> when i was a boy there was a boy that we were given to read in catholic schools. it's called the 13th greatest of centuries. it's a debatable point. the ability of that period of history to produce this

architectural form and complete the buildings without steam engin engines, without electricity and funded by ordinary people. if you go to the great cathedral which i'm sure you've done, the glass windows include pictures of ordinary people whose faith driven gifts, money, talent, work, helped raise up this extraordinary temple which raises, as you say, every one else's spirit. there's something quite unique about the gothic that, for example, the kennedy center as magnificent as it is just doesn't do as a building. i do hope that the restoration of this cathedral will keep that achievement in mind. it's part of the living history of the western world. >> let's just say that as our nation was challenged aft after 9/11, which was not a

natural disaster but the terrorist attack on our country. as it brought us together, perhaps there's a larger lesson for people of france who have been so challenged as have all of europe by moral questions as well as political questions about their resolve in these times of crisis. thank you. extraordinary concontributions. coming up, running scared. panic in the white house as staffers worry about the president's reaction to what they told investigators. stay with us right here on andrea mitchell reports only on msnbc. mitchell reports only on msnbc. ning moment... ...when a plan stops being a plan and gets set into motion. today's merrill can help you get there with the people, tools, and personalized advice

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high anxiety at the white house ahead of thursday's release of the mueller report. not just in the oval office but among a dozen current and former staff members who cooperated but are worried about incuring the president's wrath for whatever might be revealed. one person close to the white house saying there's break down level anxiety among some current and former staffers who cooperated at the direction of trump's legal team at the time. joining me now is white house correspondent kristen welker, part of the nbc team that broke that story.

i gather you have some new reporting on the white house plans and the fear factor at the white house. >> reporter: that's right. first, to the white house plans. speaking with sources familiar with the matter we know that relevant parties here at the white house will be meeting throughout the week in anticipation of the release of the mueller report. i think we can expect to see a response similar to what we saw when attorney general william barr released a summary back in march. you'll recall sarah sanders released an initial statement. e hea we then heard from the president and top officials really flooded the air waves. we know the president's outside legal team have been hud li ihu huddling throughout the week as they try to discuss their next steps of how they will respond once that redacted version is

released. there is concern among some current and former staffers and those who talk to robert mueller about this report. will there be information they came to president trump that's deemed to be damaging to the president. one source close to this matter telling me this all comes down to redactions. that's the million dollar question this source told me. will there be names. will it be very clear who is giving information. every one bracing for the fact there will be some information that the white house isn't very happy about and all eyes will be on the question of obstruction. mueller didn't come to a determination about whether president trump obstructed justice and the attorney general in his summary said he didn't think anything that rose to a criminal level. all of that fueling democrats reports to see the entire unredacted report. >> obstruction being the key issue a lot of us focused on.

because even in that four page summary it was acknowledged by william barr there were key issues unresolved on obstruction. you have don mcgahn 30 hours with the mueller team, there's got to be something inpointed to him. >> if you look at the two pieces of the report, the obstruction piece is where i think you would see the least amount of redactions as the white house seems to understand. a number of white house staffers went in and gave voluntary interviews. the grand jury wasn't used to gather any of that information. there shouldn't be any redactions. that information also shouldn't be classified an shouldn't relate to ongoing investigations. we should see every piece of evidence from the obstruction piece of the investigation. the strange thing about this

report people in the white house are worried that the president will be angry or retaliate, the white house authorized the staff to do that. it was good thing for them to do. if the president is mad now, what he expected staff to go in and do is lie for him because otherwise if they went in and told the truth, you can't be angry about the information that they shared now. it raises the question that what the president really expected them to do was go in, do this interview and lie on his behalf. >> referrals for any indictments against white house staff for lying. it's clear they probably did tell the truth, to the best of the mueller team's ability to ascertain that. >> a number of them did. we'll find how many of them did go. we have seen reports of don mcgam mcgahn. hope hicks did interviews.

how much are we going to find out about pardons dangled. barr says there's acts of potential obstruction not yet known to the public. we'll find those in and out the report. you can see why the white house would be concerned about those. >> he said, barr said there will be color codings of the redaction. if there's a color coding this involved something that's a potential ongoing insgraivestig that could be compromised, that will be very clear as well and could be alarming to the white house. >> i think that is very interesting. he has to do it in way that does not reveal what is that matter under investigation. i wonder to what extent if there are matters of ongoing investigation within the obstruction piece which is unlikely to include classified information, unlikely to include grand jury information and so

the only basis would be ongoing investigatio investigations. it could be that very large chunks are concealed from the public then if that's the case because if all you did was remove a name, it would be obvious from the context around it what was going on and what was under investigation. it's a tricky thing to redact in such way as to make this information known to the public but protect that which is still under investigation. the good part of that is that even though it doesn't get disclosed perhaps today, if it's an ongoing investigation, that part should still be disclosed when that investigation ends. >> there's another little bomb shell that came out in the middle of all this which is the financial services have subpoenaed deutsche bank. what's the significance of that? >> you see house investigators going to the soft under belly of

the trump network. it's one. >> it can take months. >> trump controls those entities. he can direct them and see people like steve mnuchin decline to turn things over. that's different when you go to deutsche or trump's accountants. those people have their own rep t -- reputations to worry about. they don't wont to be hauled up to the hill or accused of stone walling by house committees. when you look at a fruitful way to obtain information without trump being able to stop them, going to third parties that are the custodians of those records are the smartest thing to do. >> you guys will be really busy the next couple of days. coming up, heart to heart. a remarkable conversation sparked by rachel maddow's personal question to pete buttigieg.

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in a remarkable and very moving interview, rachel maddow asked pete buttigieg after dealing with his sexuality and struggling with his identity. >> i was a rhodes scholar too. i went up in 1995. you enwent up a decade later. i was the first openly gay rhodes scholar. i applied as an openly gay person. it came up in the selection process. that was a decade before you. you went through college and then the rhodes scholarship process and getting it and going to work for mckenzie and joining the navy and deploying for afghanistan and coming home and running for mayor and getting

elected before you came out at the age of 33. i bring this up, and i acknowledge it's a difficult question. i think it would have killed me to be closeted for that long. >> it was hard. >> coming out is hard but being in the closet is harder. >> that's what i mean. it took me plenty of time to come out to myself. i did not the way you did or my husband did, figure out. i probably should have. there were certain indications by the time i was 15 or so that i could point back and go this dude's gay. i guess i really needed to not be. there's this war that breaks out inside a lot of people when they realize they might be something they are afraid of. it took me a very long time to resolve that. >> joining me now is ruth marcus.

i was so struck by this. first of all, a conversation on television between a gay host and a gay presidential candidate is not something we have seen before on such intimate issues. ruth, it was just stunning. it was so revealing first for her to have asked the question and revealed so much about herself which she's never done publicly before and then to get the response from him. >> it was stunning and moving. i was the first gay rhodes scholar, rachel said. she manages with that discussion to illicit this it took me a while to come out to myself conversation. it goes on with this very interesting discussion of what it was like to be in the military. what it was like to think about the consequences of that for your political career.

i think it's both a marker of how far we have come as a country to be able to have this open conversation about being gay and learning about being gay. i think also at the same time raises questions -- his own reticence to come out to himself or to others, the fact he needed to wait until 33 to do it might suggest some of the political pitfalls that are along the way because that reticence suggests the distance we'll still need to come as a nation before fully accepting gay and lesbian people. >> i think the question showed how important it is to have diversity in media and in politics. >> absolutely. >> it was proof that, not only was she a pioneer when it comes to be a rhodes scholar but the only queer woman in prime time news.

>> dominating. >> yeah. >> you wrote while lgbt rights may not be a top issue, getting behind a leader that will take the country guaranteeing more americans more rights than the current administration does appear to be of high interest to many americans. it struck me, this was in light of the question that roger mud asked of teddy kennedy, decades ago. why do you want to be president? this was such an unexpected question and received such an interesting response. another response from pete buttigieg is why he went into the military. take a look at this. >> the thing that put me over the edge was a campaign visit. i was knocking on doors as a volunteer for barack obama and some very low income, very rural counties in iowa and was blown away by how many times i would talk to a young person on their

way to basic training or recruitment. i began to realize how stark the class and regional divided had become. i began to feel like i was part of a problem. >> he lived the reality of what we talk about, the disparities in voluntary army and service and income inequality especially with you have a president who arguably dodged the draft through bone spurs. it's very striking, his reasons for enlisting. >> it's remarkable for someone of that background voluntarily to enlist and volunteer to serve. i think it's an illustration of the various ways in which we have this enormous class and socio economic divide and the

absence of military in our leadership ranks and the ranks of us journalist. >> it's beginning to correct itself in congress with this new freshman class. a few more veterans and women who had intelligence and pentagon backgrounds. the other thing so striking about that is that he was re-elected after coming out with 80% approval. >> i think his vote ewent up. >> that's telling. people have stereotypes of indiana and the midwest and these places that will not be tolerant to someone like pete. yes, he is a gay individual. he's so many other things as well that allow him to connect with people who might have a problem with his sexual orientation. i think that's going to be real question for him moving forward. will there be people able to accept that or look past that or be able to recognize that he is someone who can lead them despite them having different views on so many issues.

>> the times they are achange. >> they are. >> thank you. >> thank you for engaging in this extraordinary conversation that rachel started last night. president trump turning to divisive messaging to shape his 2020 campaign. stay with us right here on msnbc. n. stay with usig rht here on msnbc.

i never thought i'd say this but i found bladder leak underwear that's actually pretty. always discreet boutique. hidden inside is a super absorbent core that quickly turns liquid to gel. so i feel protected and pretty. always discreet boutique. [kno♪king] ♪ memories. what we deliver by delivering. president trump's recent threats to close the southern

boarder and shut down access for asylum seekers transcends politics. all this is explored by david brooks. congratulations on the book. you have been writing about the president's attacks. how democrats are responding or not figuring out a way to respond. how does this fit with what you're writing about in your book? how we find the moral center and not focus on these other issues. >> just think about the interview we saw with rachel maddow and pete buttigieg. there's a guy with fundamental decency. i met him before i knew he was running for president and there was a humility and you look at donald trump and you look at a man who is about ego, worship, career success, financial success. a man who was not loved and is

incapable of receiving or giving love. i think we should be prepared for how much the company will want to take a reset after the trump presidency or when they make the decision about 2020. they will want not only policy changes but a moral trending. trump grows out of a moral and spiritual crisis and the answer is a moral and spiritual response. >> the country has been moving toward a profound narcissism which we see in our president but it goes beyond just this president. it's the culture and the political conversation. sdp rig s >> right. we have a crisis of disconnection with people say no one who knows them well is up. the number of people committing suicide is up. the number of teenagers committing suicide is up. distrust is up. i've had it in on own life where i was working so hard on the job i valued time over people and over relationships.

i got to the place where i was mistreating my friends and i got to a lonely place. what happened to me is happening to a lot of people. i am lucky because i got a lot of privileges but everybody can find way to live where you reach out to others, where you live for relationship. it's very easy to say i live for relationship. it's very hard to do to see the people you meet on a day-to-day basis and speak to them and be vulnerable with them. that's the bottom up person by person relationship by relationship repair that i think the country will have to need in a time of real political pain. >> on the microscopic level and you deport a man whose wife has just died serving in afghanistan because he's not documenting leaving a 12-year-old child in

arizona. they say they are fixing that. how does that even happen? how do you get to the stage where he's under deportation? >> i know many people who are doing things in public that they privately lament. they have to figure out am i doing more right than good. i find early in this administration a lot of friends were asked to join and they could come to me for counsel. if i thought they were reasonable, i would say go in. if they were people i really cared about and close to, i said don't go in. you can't be in a toxic situation and not get some of the toxicity on you. we have seen that in case after case. the people who have gone in and their reputations have been soiled. >> you write there's always attention between self and society. if things are too tightly bound

then the urge to rebel is strong. it's what you discuss in your own life. i think we all feel that to a certain extent in these high tension careers. >> we all sort of absorb the culture around. in the 50s'50s we have very communal culture. we created a culture, i'm free to be myself. that was good for a time. we've had 60 years now of hyper individualism. we have sort of over done it. they revert to tribe. we get a lot of tribalism.

it's about our commitments to one another that won't be t tribalism. >> you can say amen to that. thank you. the book is "the second mountain, quest for moral life." coming up, burning up. senator bernie sanders releases ten years of tax returns and goes on defense about the millions he's made since 2016. take a look at what happened on fox news last night. you're watching andrea mitchell reports on msnbc. g andrea mitch reports on msnbc

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you recommended a wealth tax, 70% wealth tax. >> no, actually i didn't. that was -- >> 70, 77%. what would your number be? >> in 2016 we talked about 52%. >> so would you be willing to pay 52% on the money that you made? you can volunteer, you can sending a check. >> you can volunteer too. >> but you suggested that that's what everybody in your bracket should do. >> martha, why don't you -- you make more money than i do. >> i didn't suggest a wealth tax. >> she's not running for president. >> we're going to fight for a

wealth tax. >> bernie sanders walking into potentially hostile territory at fox news and doing pretty well. joining me now, rick tyler, former senior advisor to newt gingrich and ted cruz and an msnbc political analyst and ron klain, former chief of staff to vice president joe biden. now we understand that pete buttigieg according to josh letterman on our team is negotiating for a possible town hall on fox. pretty smart. it makes you wonder why the democratic national chairman, tom perez, said no fox debates. >> i think the dnc was right not to put a debate on fox. the voters were going to pick the next democratic nominee are not watching fox and it makes sense for the dnc to bring the debates to the place where the voters are. now, if candidates -- >> but in a general election don't you want to reach out to other voters, including large audiences? >> the general election debates will be on all the networks, all the channels. if pete buttigieg and bernie sanders want to take their time

and go on fox and make their case, that's something they can do. something i thought senator sanders did well last night, put in a good performance last night on fox. but i think it's a different thing for the party to take a very lucrative contract and hand it over to fox but to make money off the democrats on fox, that's a whole different deal. >> what about, rick, the crossover appeal that democrats need to have in order to fight off third-party challenges. look at what jill stein did, if you add up the vote that was the difference among many other differences that add up to 77,000 votes in three red states. >> i think it's smart to go on as many vehicles to talk to as many people as possible. bernie sanders did well last night. i think this was billed he was going into the lion's den, it was going to be very contentious. ultimately he seem to have won the crowd over. it's interesting, because i think there's a lot of breaks in the republican coalition. what came out of last night as i

understand it, on the fox news debate or in the fox news forum, bernie sanders still owns economic populism. trump tried to capture that, but his tax bill proves that he wasn't fighting -- he is not fighting for economic populism. so bernie is still firmly holds that contingency of voters that believe in economic populism. the wealth tax, et cetera. i don't believe in any of that. but he still has them. and there are some republicans who don't disagree. and i think if you look at all the new things, including the college admissions scandal, that plays right into it's a rigged game. there's people who are benefitting because of their wealth. it goes and speaks to the justice system, it speaks to the immigration system. it's a thread, a needle that threads all of these issues together is economic populism. >> and elizabeth warren and some of the others trying to voice those ideas, and she is a principal policy choice here

doesn't have whatever the zest or the appeal that bernie seems to have. he's got the largest financial base among small donors. >> look, i think it is an advantage to have run for president before, to have built the network that senator sanders built. that's a huge asset, both from a financing perspective and from having followers around the country. i wouldn't count out senator warren yet, though. i think she has developed a big robust policy agenda, she's a very effective candidate. we are just in round one of a 15-round prize fight. it's too soon to start drawing conclusions about how all this will come out. >> and joe biden? >> well, i think the vice president will make his announcement one way or the other in the next couple weeks. if he chooses to get in, he will obviously be a very formidable candidate in this race. >> rick tyler, he's going to get in. >> i think he's definitely going to get in. he will only be the establishment lane and his challenge will be to see which of the more progressive republicans so-called are going to compete with him.

it seems to be lining up pretty classically. >> we'll leave it there just for the moment for today. ron, rick, thank you so much. we'll be right back. hank you soh we'll be right back. with mtitis, i felt i couldn't be at my best for my family. in only 8 weeks with mavyret, i was cured and left those doubts behind. i faced reminders of my hep c every day. but in only 8 weeks with mavyret, i was cured. even hanging with friends i worried about my hep c. but in only 8 weeks with mavyret, i was cured. mavyret is the only 8-week cure for all common types of hep c. before starting mavyret your doctor will test if you've had hepatitis b which may flare up and cause serious liver problems during and after treatment. tell your doctor if you've had hepatitis b, a liver or kidney transplant, other liver problems, hiv-1, or other medical conditions, and all medicines you take including herbal supplements. don't take mavyret with atazanavir or rifampin, or if you've had certain liver problems. common side effects include headache and tiredness. with hep c behind me, i feel free...

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and before we go, we have some great breaking baby news. our friend, "today" show co-host hoda kotb announcing she has a new daughter, hope catherine.

hope is joining her 2-year-old big sister, haley joy. congratulations to you and your growing family, we are all thrilled. and here is stephanie ruhle. >> yes, congratulations to hoda. hello, everyone. i am stephanie ruhle. my partner, ali velshi, off today. it is tuesday, april 16th. let's get smarter. >> history in flames. the world watches in helpless horror as notre dame cathedral burns. >> there does seem to be a death in the family, right, and not just the catholic family but the world family. >> there's two magnificent towers still standing thanks to the hard work of 400 or 500 firefighters who are taking water directly out of the senne. >> french president emmanuel macron pledges to rebuild the moniment. >> new reporting from nbc news on the mueller report. why former white house staff are nervous about president trump seeing their namesn e