>> that does it for me and i will see you back at 6:00 p.m. eastern this week. "hardball" with chris matthews is up next. countdown to mueller. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. with 36 hours until the mueller report gets released, a terrible anxiety inside trump world. those inside the white house are wondering who among them will be outed. who has given evidence against the man in the oval office. nbc news is reporting that current and former white house official who is spoke to pluler's prosecutors are worried that thursday's report will expose them as the source of

damaging information against the president. according to several witnesses of concern is how trump and allies react with who shared information with mueller. one former official said they got asked questions and told the truth and now they are worried the wrath will follow. william barr stated that the special counsel interviewed approximately 500 witnesses throughout the investigation and among them numerous current and former trump administration officials cooperated with prosecutors voluntarily and any of them could have provided damning testimony against the president. they include officials like don mcgahn and chiefs of staff reince priebus and most likely of all, michael flynn. what did he tell the prosecutors. current officials like jared kushner, stephen miller and sarah sanders participated.

several had first happened information about possible obstruction of justice by the president and may have known about trump's request to stop the investigation of michael flynn and trump's demand for loyalty from james comey. they could know the reason why james comey was fire and describe the pressure trump put on his former attorney general to end the probe itself. finally they could explain what happened when the president attempted to fire the special counsel. i'm joined by kristen welker who is covering the story. jamie rask up of maryland who serves on the house joefr sight and judiciary committee and glen kirschner. i know i will sound naive, kristen, but here's the question. why would anybody fear telling the truth. they were supposed to tell the truth. >> i think what they are

concerned about is some type of wrath from president trump himself. they told the truth and cooperated with mueller and of course some of those officials current and former who you listed off were there for some of the most difficult moments of this administration, particularly in the early days, chris. think about the moments that you named. the firing of james comey. but we also know there were conversations about the possibility of firing mueller. we know that white house counsel don mcgahn threatened to quit as you said over that very issue and he sat for more than 30 hours of testimony with mueller. that's just to name a few. there were other issues. michael flynn. remember why he was fired. he was fired, the president said, for lying to top officials including the vice president about having communications with russia's ambassador during the transition period. president trump said that's why he was fired. the question mueller wanted to

know is how many other people knew about the conversations and the content of the conversations. was he directed to have the conversations. those are among the question marks that hover over this. again, remember when they sat for the interviews with mueller at that point in time. it wasn't clear how much of the report might be released. that's still a big question. we know there are going to be significant redactions. will there be names and even if reda redacted, will it be obvious who is doing the talk something. >> as fascinating as the president talks, he is mumbling. we will save our guy. we have to get to the guy, comey. we have to get comey to give us a loyalty test and get rid of comey. it's like this cpopeye always mumbling and people are listening to him. >> let's compare and contrast two witnesses. general flynn and don mcgahn.

general flynn may have said damning things about trump, but they will attack general flynn. you were a cooperator and they asked for to six months in prison. emmet sullivan pushed back, but they will attack him because he had something to gain by cooperating. don mcgahn? what does he have to gain by telling the truth and providing information about trump. he has nothing to gain, but everything to lose if he lied to special counsel. let me spin this one y y ie y s. the president thinks it's a one on one and nobody will repeat this outside the oval office. the president makes a request to do something and don mcgahn said you can't do that. it's not lawful. he said i don't care, don. make it happen. we looked inside the president's mind and saw his intent and it's

corrupt. he could be a danger zone to the president. >> even that limited four pager and the key word is most of the charges of obstruction was publicly known. some haven't. >> not all of them. that's what the people in the white house are nervous about. we are going to get new information, presumably, possibly, about what the attempted interferences were with the mueller investigation. now remember, this is all going to be redacted. >> how much do you think? how much black ink will be on the pages? >> it will be color coded and it will be in a punch of different colors. it will be like a rainbow ransom node with the red outs and the blackouts. >> trump will know and will be able to say the only person in the room when i said that is this guy. >> he will be able to figure it out.

the catch all category is the one where the attorney general just plucked this doctrine oust thin air, saying he would redact information that might harm the reputational interest of peripheral third parties. for all we know since the attorney general is doing the definition, he could describe the president as a third party. >> that would be a joke. if you can't talk about what he did wrong, that covers 100% of wrong-doing by the president. >> the ag is using a belt and suspenders to say we can't prosecute the president for anything because he can't be prosecuted and the president as a matter of law can't be guilty of obstructing justice. he excluded the president from inquiry. i think that the independent -- what do you make the claim that the president of the united states has executive authority over everything? he owns all the power?

>> it's an extravagant and extreme claim that is rejected by basic constitutional doctrine. the president cannot decide to drop criminal charges against this or that person. the president can't interfere in a law enforcement investigation to say this person is off limits. that cuts against two centuries of understanding of the relationship between the white house and the department of justice. this ag goes along with it and is asserting this unitary executive approach that the president is like a king and can pronounce you guilty or innocent or say prosecute this person and not that person. >> cooperating attorney general. nbc news is reporting that trump's legal team met to prepare for the report's release. the white house staff will do the same. rudy giuliani told politico in middle of the night texts that the president's counter report has been edited and is at 34 or

35 pages. the more concise the better. that's a novel. retaliation. that's not exactly what you call human resources, but the president of the united states may not like the behavior of his team if they talk the truth. >> that's right. that's why you have this county report at the ready that has been prepared by the president's legal team. they want to rebut anything that they find to be damaging once that report is released even though we know that significant portions will be redacted. i have been told based on my conversations that they haven't made any final decisions about how much of that counter report they are going to release and what the final language of it will be. this is still very much a moving target and we know the white house and the president's outside legal team want a rapid initial response, but they are going have to sort through the

details in the report as we all are going to have to. after that, you will see a more robust response, possibly an hour or several hours when we have time to digest all of it. the count counter report they have been holding on to because if there is information, they want to be able to respond forcefully. >> it will be three categories of people. there will be more that watch this mueller report when we get our hands on. one will be the president who can figure out who is talking. congress members know who is talking. read by the new york times and other organizations will be able to figure it out. they are skeptical about how much can they cover? he said they can cover up people who haven't been indicted. the president of the united states has not been indicted. the mueller report on trump has no dirt on trump. what would be the point of the damn thing. i'm questioning the logic.

>> it will be a tech color cover up. this new category that they made up, a peripheral person privacy privilege. there is a lot of alliteration. >> that's supposed to be what he did to hillary. >> that dog doesn't hunt. hillary wasn't president. trump is. that gives everybody enough information to actually glean what's going on. it's all coming out at some point whether through a court battle and the un redacted report will come out and if barr is perceived as having suppressed damaging information to try to protect the president, it will end badly for the president and for barr. >> i want to make one more point. witness intimidation is a crime. that violates 18 usc and 1315. not just violent retaliation or

intimidation, but nonviolent where you interfere with economic livelihood and try to get them fired. that's serious business. the rule of law or system of justice -- >> does trump know this law? he said he believes he can do anything to any employee. >> his attorney general agrees with him. the point of having a democratic system of government is nobody is above the law. >> he attacked treating the greatest scam in political history. if the mainstream history were honest, it would be more important than watergate some day. here's what he said in minnesota last night. >> i heard it's going to come out on thursday. that's good. there can't be anything there because there was no crime. there was no anything. the crime was committed by the

other side. this crime was all made up. it was a fabrication. >> the talking points. no collusion and obstruction is ilrelevant. >> i find if anything that they reput the mueller report. if something exonerated me, i wouldn't reput it, much less suppress it. we have to wait and see. thursday morning will be sort of the truth or consequences moment. >> his argument is i was not one of the watergate burglars so you can't get rid of me. >> just because there is no collusion, there was no obstruction. collusion is not a crime. it's not true. martha stewart went to prison for obstructioning justice, not "the insider" trading. people can obstruct justice because they think they are guilty or because they are

guilty and the prosecutors can't find the evidence against them or because they are trying to protect someone else or keep secrets. they are convicted of obstru obstructing justice without the underlying crime. >> that was an education. thank you. >> professor as congressman in all these things. thank you. kristen welker. jamie is our congressman now. bernie's fast start. he is one of the front-runners right now and that makes some democrats, shall we say, nervous. divide and conquer. how trump's attacks on omar is part of a winning strategy. how to survive in trump world. single page memos and flash cards and if you are gina, relying on spy skills to get through to them. much more to come. stick with us. stick with us.

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i guess the president watches your network a little bit, right? hey, president trump, my wife and i released 10 years. please do the same. let the american people know. welcome back to "hardball." taking a shot at president trump in a fox news town hall. the democratic socialist generated a lot defending his newfound wealth from writing and got unexpected support for his national health plan. >> this audience has a lot of democrats in it. it has republicans, democratic socialists, conservatives. i want to ask the audience a question. a show of hands of how many people get insurance from work. private insurance right now.

how many get it from private insurance? of those how many are willing to transition to a government-run system? >> sanders was the first 2020 candidate to appear in a town hall on fox. not lost on one of his most viewers. president trump wrote on twitter so weird to watch crazy berno fox news. the audience was so smiley and nice. very strange. >> sanders's recent momentum has some of the democratic party agonizing. how some are beginning to ask, do they thwart a 70 something candidate from outside the structure immune to intimidation and while support from an unwavering base without reinforcing the establishment is out to get me message.

the same used by trump. the director progressive for cirrus xm. the rnc chair. your thoughts about senator sanders is doing really well. a lot of people thought it was a one-trick pony and he's over the hill. he's not. he's clearly in the running and see him getting up to 40%. he might win the whole contest. what does that do? a self-proclaimed socialist not a member of the democratic party going into a general election against trump? >> that's an interesting dyna c dynamic. you have someone with the title democratic socialist, but we are living in a capitalist society. it's not as if bernie sanders put policies out and out socialism. yes, some government-run programs like health care, but a lot of democrats are talking

about that. your question to what is this going to look like in a general election? i don't know. we never had a candidate and incumbent president like donald trump. some of the difficulty we had as a clinton campaign against a candidate who lies all the time and you can't fact check him because he doesn't care. it is difficult to navigate. if bernie is the nominee which i think all of the candidates have an equal shot at this point because we haven't met any voters yet, he is going to have to navigate that difficulty where you can't push back against a candidate who has no shame. >> here calls himself a socialist. he never called himself a democrat. i don't know how it's going to work. >> if you look all across the west at left of center parties, the center left disappeared. you see it in britain and france.

>> what happened to the labor party of tony blair? it's gone. >> for devoured itself. he is despised the way that clinton is deceased pized by many on the left today. even barack obama is getting a bit of shade in this campaign. we are in a different world. the inequalities are getting tense. the insecurity of living in this economy is becoming worse. people want to be reassured. that's what the strong want to do. i don't know what's the best. i suspect that a full we are going to take care of you, we will make sure your entitlements are secure and give you health care. that kind of works. the last british general election, jeremy corbin who makes bernie sanders look like bill clinton ran is on a manifesto. >> he's not the government. he has one.

>> he put the manifesto out there and gained 20 points in one campaign, but he didn't win. whether the left or right populism are equally strong. >> let's talk about the president. he is good at exploring minorities and women on the other side. especially immigrants. omar is going after the congresswoman. impressive, but she's a woman and minority and immigrant and she's number one for the target practice. >> for the press and the left spend a lot of time tracing behind to capture the story and tell the story. he is creating the narrative. >> he's ungrateful. that's the big word. >> it's a powerful word. for those americans who feel that her rhetoric is harsh and antagonistic to the 9-11 memory, she is in that view, ungrateful. grate as many targets as

possible and for everyone to respond to meanwhile, he will continue to shore up that base that will deliver that vote this ti time. >> is it enough to win? >> his numbers are unbelievably strong. 46 to 53% job approval. >> no, it's 41%. >> the latest poll a couple of weeks ago that came out was 46% job approval. not anything else. >> that's way off the current polling. >> he has 58 on economic performance which is unbelievable. back in 2016, i pressed sanders on one of his proposals with free access and tuition to public colleges and universities. >> you are asking me how do i pay for it. >> how do you pass it through

the senate? >> we are going to pay through a tax on wall street. >> who supports that tax? >> chris, you and i look at the world differently. you look inside the beltway. i'm an outside the beltway. >> the people who vote on the taxes are inside the beltway. >> they are going to vote the right way when millions of people demand it. >> his ability is aspirational optimism about how to get 60 votes on economic structure on every front. it could be the economy, but generally it's education, free education and health care and o placing obamacare. even if you have the house and bernie as president. this is not easy. it's going to be a revolution. there will be a revolution.

that's the answer. >> you hit the nail on the head in terms of your question to bernie, how are you going get it damage? my number one critique of sanders while i agree with his policies, he is great at articulating the problem, but not good at telling me how he is going to solve it. that's where the winning strategy will be. you can't say to voters, look at all these problems, they are terrible. you have to tell them how you will get it done and how you will fix it. what are the solutions? we are forming the filibuster or getting rid of it. that's a part of it. that conversation is happening. elizabeth warren is talking about that and other democrats are talking about the structural reforms in the system that would allow the transformation. >> the fact is if you get rid of the filibuster, they repeal everything you pass.

it's just like racing everything you did. i want to ask andrew the same question. can they come in and do the nuclear option? bernie wins. he has the vice president tow break the tie. he needs 50 votes. get rid of the filibuster and pass the whole social agenda. >> that's what he is i think intending to do. whether or not it works, i don't know. i want to preserve the filibuster. it was created for a world in which two parties can have a reasonable discussion and there was a capacity for compromise. it assumes that. much of the system assumes that. priblism has taken over. if the filibuster is taking over, you can't have judicial nominees and threatsen to do it on legislation. >> i wasn't arguing to scrap it,

but democrats are having that conversation and bernie sanders should come up with ideas and present them to voters. how are you going to get the policies passed? >> we will come right back. you are sticking with us. trump's 2020 strategies are coming into focus. divide and conquer. the warnings about immigrants and words about a muslim member of congress. can that be enough to energize his old trump base? there he is with his people. there he is with his people.

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welcome back to "hardball." november 9th, 2016 and donald trump just won the presidential election. the lead of the "new york times" reads drum ele-donald trump ele 45th president of the united states and took aim on the long held ideals of american democracy. we may not be able to predict who will win, but predict how they will win. imagine it's 2020 and trump just won reelection, the lead might be donald trump was able to squeak by whoever it was and

exploit anger over muslim minorities and a democratic party tilting towards socialism. trump is ramping up his divicive playbook and found a foil in congresswoman omar. omar faced criticism for a speech saying on 9/11, some people did something while talking about islam phobia in america. watch. >> far too long we lived with the discomfort of being a second class citizen. i'm tired of it and every muslim in this country should be tired of it. care was found said aftered aft. they recognized some people did something and all of us were starting to lose access to civil liberties. >> that was taken out of contact

and lead to backlash for president trump. >> she has been very disrespectful to this country. she has been very disrespectful to israel. she is somebody that doesn't really understand, i think, life and what it's all about. it's unfortunate. she has a way about her that is very, very bad, i think, for our country. >> i think trump is picking his enemies and wants to run against congresswoman omar or maxine waters or somebody else he likes to go after. that's what he wants to pick as the leader of the democratic party. >> he might want to learn that black women are the base of the democratic party. one in five muslims is a black person. her identity and the intersections of the identity will be a problem for trump. what he is doing is making me as

a black woman really pissed off. he is signalling her out based on her identity and not based on something she said. he said she is anti-semitic and went to a jewish republican organization last week and did the thing that he accused them of dual loyalty. the idea that he is the arbiter of who is anti-semitic and who is not is a joke. >> i know where you are going. you are engaging in the same reparty they do. that's fair. they referred to your prime minister, meaning you are loyal to him. >> he accused her of that, but he is actually engaging in that on a regular basis. that was not the first time. kevin mccarthy and donald trump george w. bush. they had literal nazis. they attacked more on her

identity more than on the substance of anything she said. >> i agree. she is right in terms of how this is playing out. the question is not how white woman react. she is not concerned about getting the black female vote. going back to the point i made before, he is putting in play, fires that people will go and he keeps bouncing back. in a few weeks it could be cortez. we have tond how he is playing with the democratic candidates if they want to get in a fogs

outmaneuver that strategy. >> and clarity works. he's not easily distracted by trump. he had the same opinions about everything his entire life. he had the same views when he was 16. >> nobody's done that. >> he is capable of keeping his focus on the issues. the other one that is able to do that is beauttigiebuttigieg. pete. this is a time where people don't want tax cuts for the rich. they want national health issues. all the issues are on the democrats's side. if he runs on what trump ran on last time and delivers, if the democrats say we will have the same tax cut, but unlike this guy, we are going to take it from them and give it back to you. the same tax cut. that's a simple thing and

exposes trump's complete fraud lens. >> trump runs on the devil you know. this guy will be worse for you. >> he's going to run on this country doesn't exist anymore because there was an entirely open border at the south and no democrat wants to stop uncontrolled immigration and that is why he will win, if he wins. >> and democrats want abortion in the trisemester, first semester, it doesn't matter. for them to use as fodder and -- >> immigration is beyond him and it has been around for a long time. it's the most important factor and scrambling every europe eastern country and bringing neofascist governments. >> what does that tell you? >> in part this is the result of -- if you read

malcolmenance's book, it goes through the chronology- you recommending that guy? >> yes, i am. >> he's a complete fant sift. >> i'm -- >> this is nonsense. >> i wanted to articulate the point i was making. he ties it historically to the rise of white nationalism throughout europe. that tied to the debate over immigration. >> of course it is. it is being created by mass immigration. you have to choose between mass immigration or liberal democracy. you can't have both. >> thank you so much. thank you all for joining us. coming up, survivor, white house edition. what does it take to hold on to your position? skills as a spy may help. we will get to that after the break. help we will get to that after the break. when you rent from national... it's kind of like playing your own version of best ball. because here, you can choose any car in the aisle, even if it's a better car class than the one you reserved.

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welcome back to "hardball." donald trump was the first reality star to compete and win the pedestrian. two years in, we continue to watch in realtime a political game of white house survivor. the secretary kirstjen nielsen is the latest to be cast off the island. the keys to surviving the president are praising trump, that works, mastering skills that he values and forging alliances. if all that fails, plant yourself in front of a tv camera and press the boss. both senior policy adviser steven miller and kellyanne conway have been rewarded for their ability to play the game. nobody seems to thrive like the president's dutiful deputy, mike pence. >> thanks to the leadership of president donald trump, welcome to the beginning of the end of obamacare. thank you for your faith in the american people.

president trump has been making history since the first day of this administration. >> i know i speak on behalf of the cabinet and of millions of americans when i say congratulations and thank you. you restored american credibility on the world stage. you signed more bills rolling back more red tape. you spurred an optimism. >> that's the greatest privilege of my to serve as vice president to president trump. he's a man of his word. >> he is praying to trump. it's like we are in church. the vice president's support and adoring gaze have been a hallmark of his term. let's take a look.

it wasn't going to notice. the adoring gaze has rarely been seen since the days of nancy reagan. he said i would like to look at me for one day the way mike pence looks at president trump every day they are together. that would be special. stay tuned now to find which cabinet official is using her skills as a spy, literally to get what she needs from the president. you are watching "hardball." fr president. you are watching "hardball." hins can be a big deal. that's why there's otezla. otezla is not a cream. it's a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently. with otezla, 75% clearer skin is achievable. don't use if you're allergic to otezla.

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other side effects include gas, stomach area pain, and swelling. i'm still doing it all. the water. the exercise. the fiber. and i said yesss to linzess for help with belly pain and recurring constipation. ask your doctor. welcome back to "hardball." gina haskell joins the individual who is tried to figure out how to get this president's attention. she utilizes her career as a case officer trained to handle informants. she relied on the skills of a spy. good listening and empathy and the ability to connect and make sure her voice is heard at this white house. last march according to sources close to her, she put the skills to the test as president trump and officials were discussing how to respond to russian agents poisoning a russian intelligence

officer in britain. in order to persuade the president chose the retaliatory option. the british government supplied her with young children hospitalized and showed a photograph of ducks. ducks. they were inadvertently killed by sloppy work of the operatives. the associated press and omarosa, former senior white house officials and author of unhinged. i want to go to jonathan first. you have to take real skill. you have to come up with a special skill to make it in the white house. did these seem familiar to you? >> this was the extreme version of it. there is a real art if you will, in order to brief president trump.

you don't want to be seen as giving too much publicity or credit. you don't want to be the power behind the throne or trump a brain like steve bannon be baseball and that person be exited from the white house. you need to brief him and this is according to our reporting as well, this terrific "new york times" piece. with a couple of different tact tactics. you want to flatter him and don't want to publicly disagree or bears him and make your case on television, particularly fox news. he will see this. sometimes he is more receptive to what he sees on the screen than the briefing room. find a way to convince him to your point of view like images and we know he was convinced to ordering an air strike and when he saw images of sick and dead children. or convince him that it was his idea. that's flattering him and mike pence used time and time again.

>> omarosa, thanks for coming on. do you think he likes people rivalling him to see how much flattery he can throw at him. >> here loves to see the staffers fight and disagree and scratch each other's eyes out. he knows there is tension between collaborating and computation. i used my skills as an elementary school teacher. >> what are grade was trump in? >> fourth grade. low attention span and limited vocabulary and inability to process difficult information. i drew from that information. he's looking at the lord and it's strange. >> he's like a stepford vice president. watching him faun over donald trump in those cabinet meetings and private meetings in the studies, it really was alarming.

>> we didn't give his name and he was an arms control expert, i like to have my wife look at me just once the way he looks at the president every day. what do you think about that in the eyes of the vice president? >> it's a few things. mike pence knows he owes his career to donald trump. he was facing a tough reelection bit for governor when trump picked him. he is also someone who has seen what happens if you cross donald trump. secretary of state tillerson and james mattis. he was shown the door. pence is a much bigger deal. nobody suggested that was a consideration. pence was a loud voice. he wants to preserve it and knows that trump is popular with republicans. i'm sure part of this cozying up to donald trump is an eye to not only his short-term survival in

his own party. trump becomes the odds on favorite for the president in 2024. if trump defeat next year. he hasn't alienated other republicans. >> what does it feel like being a pander bear? you pander to everyone. >> he wants people to go on television and defend decisions that are morally reprehensible. and the moment you don't, like me, he will discard you. >> thank you. up next, how the city of lights managed to protect it's glean after the devastating fire at notre dame. at notre dame -and we welcome back gary,

who's already won three cars, two motorcycles, a boat, and an r.v. i would not want to pay that insurance bill. [ ding ] -oh, i have progressive, so i just bundled everything with my home insurance. saved me a ton of money. -love you, gary! -you don't have to buzz in. it's not a question, gary. on march 1, 1810 -- [ ding ] -frédéric chopin. -collapsing in 226 -- [ ding ] -the colossus of rhodes. -[ sighs ] louise dustmann -- [ ding ] -brahms' "lullaby," or "wiegenlied." -when will it end? [ ding ] -not today, ron. ♪ -when will it end? [ ding ]

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with notre dame in flame last night, the people of paris could still sing in serene harmony. let's listen. ♪ ♪ >> all right the president of france vowed to rebuild what has been lost, but when the sun rose over thes en river, the power saved and the flying buttresses surviving the fire. the city of lights and its jewel above all managed to hold its glean. look at this froof showing the crucifix in almost radiance reflecting a french heart said even no on notre dame's joy us

resurrection. parisians gathered to reflect and honor god and surviving as a memorial to a country and its faith. that's "hardball" for now. all in with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on all in -- >> she's got a way about her that is very, very bad for our country. >> he attacks congresswoman omar. >> she doesn't understand real life. >> drawing on the bigotry that fuelled his campaign. >> a total and complete shut down of muslims entering the united states. >> the kind of bigotry that fuels the republican base. >> she is infatuates with al qaeda and hamas. >> words of incitement and the party's eagerness to pump it up.