that wraps up this hour of msnbc live. i'm phillip mena. it iswitt." >> that is a greatconversation. good morning. it is 7:00 a.m. in the east. welcome to "weekends with alex witt." why gann singling out

rudy giuliani. why the president did not stop to talk to reporters. what americans think? and blackout clues to the redacti redactions and if it could change what we know. developing this hour, don mcgahn is defending the findings of the special counsel. he is a central figure in the investigation on whether the president obstructed justice. telling investigators the president directed him to have the special counsel fired, but mcgahn did not follow through. it is a mystery why the president's attorney rudy giuliani feels the need to relitigate incidents and it was concluded it was not obstruction, but accurately described in the report. don pressurappreciates the pres gave him the opportunity to

serve. here is what mcgahn is reacting to. >> if it is true, it is not. those are not like real orders. i'll tell you, when he wants to fire somebody, ask james comey. yes, he got angry. he y yes, he got upset. these messages were never delivered. he did not mean them to be delivered. >> after the mueller report, democratic senator elizabeth warren is now the first presidential candidate to call on the house to start impeachment proceedings. >> this is about a point of principle. i get it. there are people who think politically no it will be too hard to do this. this is not about politics. this isn't evenly specifically about donald trump himself. it is what the president of the united states should be able to do and what the role of congress is. no one is above the law. that includes the president of

the united states. >> aides for nancy pelosi who has warned against pursuing impeachment replied back saying one step at a time and they are unredacted mueller report. the first poll after the mueller report. the president's approval dropping by 3 percentage points. standing at 37%. there are a number of angles to explore. we will do with the panel of journalists and experts. welcome to you all. let's go to the white house. mike, good saturday morning. what is the latest from there? what is the tone of things? >> reporter: the president and allies in congress are alternating between total exoneration and vindication in the wake of the mueller report and calling it a crazy report and the president once again criticizing bob mueller and the prosecutors working for him as angry democrats. it is the back and forth here.

democrats certainly not looking at exoneration or vindication. jerry nadler, the manhattan democrat who leads the committee in the house of ref and that wi not condemn the top leadership who will look eyes only at the un investigations will continue in the house of representatives led by democrats not with standing everything going on and many democrats believe bill barr put a thumb on the summary. hogan gidley had this response to many of the allegations. >> when does this ever stop? if we gave them the unredacted

report and all of the returns, he would still want something else. we will not deal with jerry nadler in that manner. we cooperated so much with the house democrats. we will continue to do so. this is just more political grandstanding. >> reporter: if it is political grandstanding or not, it will continue the investigation into the committee and house oversight committee. bob mueller willefore the congress. bill barr said he will not stand in the way. we can expect democrats to announce a date shortly. alex. >> i don't know, if they were to release the tax returns and full unredacted report. i don't know what else there would be. thank you, michael. joining me now is shannon petty and kevin cirilli and jeff mason. hey, guys and gal. shannon, my first question was going to be how the white house

has absorbed the report. the headline of your article summing it up well. that being trump's post-mueller euphoria. at what point did that turn? >> when he turned on cable news. he was in a good mood. people around him said on thursday that you teased this moment where he went out to departure at marine i. a mob of reporters. everyone expected him to answer questions. many believed it would be the press conference where he would put a spin on it. he walked past. that was recommended by him when the first lady told him to show defiance and confidence n thursday. of course, as we quickly saw with the tweets and those around

him, that grew to irritation as he saw the coverage here. his advisers have been trying to explain to him that this is a story that will fade and will be a short news cycle. by monday everyone will talk about something else. i don't know that is the case. as long as democrats are bringing this up, the president, he is a ck. they will spin the narrative. he will continue being on the defensive here. >> indeed. i think that is the expectation for sure. jeff, don mcgahn's statement that his lawyer put out last night. something must have triggered him and compelled him to do it. do you know why he spoke out? >> i don't know. there is a report that suggested he was irritated by what you played with rudy giuliani's there are players who are included in that report and don mcgahn is a key one. the irony of don mcgahn's role

is interesting. he was an important player in the white house. he has helped to get a lot of the president's policies through in the courts. the reports shows in some ways, he saved president trump from himself by not carrying out the orders that president trump gave him with regard to firing mueller. it is rich to hear rudy giuliani's defense saying look, the president never intended for the actions to be carried out. the president followedthat is a defense from giuliani and though mcgahn did not directly respond to that. his people were upset what giuliani was saying. >> kevin, your read on mcgahn? is that who the president's tweet is referencing by saying

statements made about me by certainly people are fabricated? probablycgahn. who else? >> the sub tweet of all sub tweets. i agree with jeff of where the president's frustration is lying with don mcgahn. the question for the administration officials will have to come out of reading this. in particular the president's mood as shannon and bloomberg reported. will he turn against those folks in the report who were going against him to the mueller investigation? now the white house has said no, of course, but behind-the-scenes, that could be painted a different picture. in the coming weeks ahead, the next data points on the story line where bob mueller testifies before congress and republicans have called on the special counsel to do. with senator warren's cries for impeachment, that puts a new

type of shadow over this entire conversation that is being had. it also places a lot of pressure on speaker nancy pelosi because senator warren is the first, but she is not going to be the last. >> shannon, i'm curious. what is the sense inside the white house right now among aides to the president and throughout the white house administration? is there a sense of dread? because the president to your point in the article and on twitter and the like, he is angry. so they have to work through all this. what are they saying about that? >> i would, of course, say it is mixed. the initial euphoria seems to have been zapped. yesterday and yesterday afternoon when the political implications of this settled in. we have the legal implications. at least the immediate legal implications of no indictment or charges against his family. when the staff stepped back and

got to see the obstruction issue with the avior and what they are concerned about i like what the president is doing with the economy, but not his demean demeanor. there is a concern this pulse will calcify of the chaotic white house and brash unethical president. that is the impression voters are left with. i think the big hope is the democrats overplay their hands here. they are hoping the democrats go a little too far and back sdfirn them the way with the republicans and bill clinton. the democrats could pursue this and it could mean months of hearings and further investigations and stories of the president's behavior in the office continuing to be rehashed. that is a risk. >> jeff, i want to talk about

the post-mueller report. the approval is down 3% there. concern in the white house that this report will linger and cast a shadow or is there a sense of hey, it is over. we will deal with this now and it may not affect polling in the future. particularly closer to november of 2020. >> i think shannon is right. i think it is mixed. i was outside both for the point where we thought the president would speak to us and a couple hours before when kellyanne conway was speaking to reporters. she declared it the best day for president trump since his election. there certainly was initial euphoria that shannon was referring to and they feel the same way. this is something that the president can go out and say i was fully exonerated and no collusion and no obstruction. despite the details in the report raise a great deal of questions. his base will not look at the details. democrats certainly will. swing voters may. i think that's what they have to

be careful about. that sliver of voters that is in the middle that he needs and certain swing states. so some of which he won and some which he did not. >> guys, i want to ask about sarah sanders and the admission of lying about all of this. take a listen to what she said. >> what led you in the white house to believe that he had lost confidence of the rank-and-file of the fbi and acting director says it is opposite. >> i can speak to my personal experience. i heard from countless members of the fbi that are grateful and thankful for the president's decision. i certainly heard from a large number of individuals and that's just myself. i don't know that many people in the fbi. >> to follow-up on the fbi thing. i'm not trying to be overly combative here. you said now today and you said again yesterday that you personally have talked to countless fbi officials and

employees since this happened. >> correct. >> really? so are we talking? >> email and text message. absolutely. >> 50? >> yes. >> shannon, what does this mean? does any trust remain? >> i don't really know where we go from here. i can say two things inside the white house. one from this report we know the president encourages his aides to lie and has no problem with that himself. i don't think this is a concern of the president's. we have seen instances where he asked don mcgahn publicly lie about a story. two, i know that sarah sanders is a close adviser to the president. she is one of the longest serving advisers in the white house. he has a lot of confidence in her. she is very close to the inner circle as well. >> i'm curious, jeff, is she any different when you interact with her one-on-one as opposed to the

public persona? >> i'll take a page out of the house playbook. i hate to talk about one-on-one interactions with sarah. she works hard with the press. the thing watching that clip that jump out at me is how hard the questions wm the reporter. the press corps did that itself the truthfulness of what she said. >> particularly approaching it delicately by saying i don't want to appear combative. you know you are going at her with a combative question, but be careful how you word it. >> it is our job in chthat case >> kevin. >> it is far from over. the questions will continue for all involved, i agree with shannon. sarah has ase relationship with president trump. that will continue. beyond this, everyone needs to take a step back and let's not

forget that russia used a propaganda machine to impact social media platforms and use cryptocurrency services to infiltrate democratic services. that is the issue over the past 24 hours. there is a rare opportunity con mechanisms that bolster security ahead of the 2020 election. >> shannon, jeff, kevin. legal and lift danny cevellos and ashley. >> good morning. >> ashley, we know there was not an obstr against the president from the office of the special counsel. mueller's account is damning. is it an attempt to commit a crime a crime? what is mueller's conclusion?

>> yes. it is. mueller would never indict a sitting president. this report makes it clear he was not going to do that. he laid it out for congress so that they can take it the next step and take it to impeachment. he laid it out so trump could face indictment later on when he leaves the presidency. what is important for you to understand is it started with comey. it continued. it continued with the president trying to influence people and trying to get people to lie for him. trying to get different advisers to fire special counsel and actually obstruct special counsel by doing that. they didn't do that. a lot of the people would not and they resisted that. so his efforts were actually stopped so the obstruction wasn't necessarily completed because he wasn't successful in doing it. that doesn't mean he didn't try. it is an attempt or an attempted obstruction where he tried. the evidence is there if congress wants to stay it to the next step and the evidence is

there if they want to impeach him. >> there are quote avalanche of facts against the president according to the mueller report. danny, is there an obstruction statute that could still be applied torailing in the attempt, but that's as a result of those around him who kept him from doing harm to himself. >> there are many statutes that could apply. mueller reached a binary conclusion that you cannot charge a sitting president. all mueller is doing is amassing facts and data and letting some unknown person or legislative body in the future make the decision. when you talk about attempt, attempt is one of the most fascinating crimes in the system. incomplete crime. where we punch tish the intent. not the action. the ultimate action is not

complete. a common challenge is what is a substantial and step. if i trip on the way to the bank as i try to rob the bank with a ski mask and gun, i had intent. if you order a gun on amazon and then when does intent begin? we need the substantial step. what that step is my differ. if the prosecutor investigating concludes that there cannot be an underlying crime. >> guys, we will have you back later and talk about redactions and legality of all that. sit tight. we'll see you soon. to impeach or not. the debate under way by the members of congress and why some say there may be another option. e sa y there may be another option. you wond that on a map. i'll take you there.

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deepening division among democrats over impeachment. in a tweet, senator elizabeth warren breaks with leaders and calls for the house to initiate proceedings against president trump. here is what the house judiciary committee chair jerry nadler said about impeachment yesterday. >> we're not there. we have to now because the barr misled the country, we have to hear from barr, which we will on may 2nd. we have to hear from mueller and ask him questions. we need the entire report

documents to make informed decisions. >> joining me now is the founder of need to impeach is tom steyer. part of what we hard there, one person calling for impeachment and one not. a chorus of voices behind each one of them. with whom do you agree and why and if jerry nadler is right we need to wait, why not put the brakes on more to get more information? >> what we really need, alex, which is consistent with impeachment and consistent with nadler is, publicized televised hearings. get all of these people in front of the american people and let us see what happened. let us make a decision. i think everyone is trying to keep this inside washington, d.c. we're a grassroots organization. we believe in the american people learning the truth and making the decision. we are intent of getting

publicized televised hearings so the american people can learn the truth so we can make up our minds. >> what do you think of the monmouth poll that says we want the entire unredacted report out there and yet, we don't really support doing much about it in terms of impeachment proceedings. how do you reconcile? >> easily. the american people need to see on tv what people are saying. if you think about the last year, two real hearings. one really about president trump. that was michael cohen. that moved people's opinions 6%. the other one was brett kavanaugh. we need a series of hearings now and moving quickly so the american people can see what happens. that's how we're going to make up our mind. not democrats. not republicans. not independents. the american people. i've traveled around this country. we are a decent, intelligent and

brave come papassionate people. will we stand up for what's right? that's what americans do. we do what's right. >> how many people are saying yes, we have to go for impeachment despite the divisive nature despite those in the trump camp and those opposing him. let's talk about the issues that make a difference. education, health care, infrastructure, employment. are people really clamoring got to impeach? >> let me say this, we can do both. we can walk and chew gum. in addition, there's a question here about doing what's right and protecting the system itself. if we cannot set a precedent that the president is above the law, this is a president who thinks the country serves him. that is the exact opposite of what is supposed to be true. he took an oath of office to serve the american people. when you see obstruction of justice and you see the kind of corruption he commits on a daily basis, he is putting his

personal interests ahead of the rule of law and ahead of the justice department and interests of the american people. that is absolutely unacceptable. >> when people see the word exonerated with regard to the mueller report, they think innocent, potentially, right? what is the difference with the criminal procedures, potentially, against the president of which it doesn't look like there is substantial evidence to pursue criminal by these. and impeachment? >> that is true, alex. what the special prosecutor said was he cannot bring criminal charges against a sitting president. >> what is the operative word? bring? he can't do it. >> you cannot indict a sitting president according to the doj. he said given that, i'll lateyo a case that proves that this president obstructed justice and i'll hand it to congress and say your job is to oversee and control the most corrupt

president in american history. it is now up to you. if congress, in fact, doesn't do their duty, they are passing on one of the most important jobs which is to take control of the most corrupt president in american history. >> you have been calling, my friend, for impeachment for some time. you are citing things in the mueller report. what is the difference with what you know now and what you started with when you went down this path? >> when we started, alex, we said he has been committing obstruction of justice and corruption in plain saight. we don't need to wait for the mueller report. when it comes, there will be a lot of information in there that we didn't know and there will be a fantastic job done by a serious professional investigator. that is what we got. what robert mueller said was you really don't need to wait for the mueller report. this was all in plain sight. here it is laid out for you. by the way, which we have been saying all along, he can't indict the president. all we can really do is rely on

congress to do its job and hold this president to account and stand up tofor the american people. that's what we are talking. give us our televised hearings. let the american people have their voice of, by and for the people. we have 8 million people who signed our petition. this is about the american people. it is not about people inside washington who say to the american people you can't handle the truth. we can handle the truth. >> that's what you got. i have a good conversation. thank you, tom. >> what a treat. refusing the president's orders. the staffers who said no. they're gone, but the president is not. the implications of that next. our coverage of the mueller report today includes a two hour special with chris matthews and then tomorrow with ari melber.

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i saw a president who was lucky to be protected by people from himself. >> are there people around the president doing this service for him? >> i think there are less people. i think the president needs to have people around him that are not going to conform their

penal personalities to him because of the bluster or awe of the oval office. >> former communications director anthony scaramucci about top officials who refused to do trump's bidding. joining me now is jess yo o'connell. ladies, welcome to you both. good to see you. lauren, to you first here. as scaramucci said, many of the officials and trump allies whom the report names and credits with limiting the efforts of the investigation are gone. what are the implications of this? >> i think that is yet to be seen. i think there are people within the administration that do serve as checks to some of the president's impulses. we saw it every day honestly when we were in the administration and i think it is important that we encourage good people to serve in any

administration. public service is a difficult job. a lot of time administration officials regardless of party, vilified by the other side. it makes it difficult to want to go and stay and do the good work that serves the american people. this is another reason for us to call people to public service and hope they serve well and serve the american people in the best way possible. sometimes that means saying no. >> yeah. there's an alarming amount of nos, jess. what does that say to you? how troubling is that that a lot of people say work for me and they say okay and do not do what he says. >> i'm glad to see some of them are not doing what he says. some of what he wants to do is obviously illegal. some of the things and he doesn't have respect for the law or institutions or government. i'm glad to see we have some career politicians and others that will tell him no.

this issue, this open issue of obstruction that the president faces that robert mueller has left to congress to resolve is open because there are some people who just told him no. just because he wasn't successful doesn't mean he and others were not trying to obstruct. that needs to be answered as we move forward. >> lauren, i mentioned you worked under former dhs secretary kirstjen nielsen. her refusal to bow to the demands of the president about the border was the issue that caused her to leave. >> i worked with general kelly and i worked with acting secretary elaine duke and kirstjen nielsen. there was a common thread there at the department of homeland security to make sure that our first priority was the safety and security of the american people. you did see these discussions. i think that is a generous way

of saying it with the president and with the white house on what was appropriate or not appropriate and how we could best serve the american people. that is a common theme. i really hope that the next secretary that goes in that is nominated also have that sense of purpose and mission when it comes to serving at the department. >> yeah. i know, jess, you worked for the department in 2016. what was your reaction to the mueller report about potential collusion? and the campaign did not collude despite all that wasuncovered? >> they tried. you have instances where president trump encouraged russia to look for emails, right? and that was at the same time -- and five hours later, there were hacks on hillary clinton's emails. that is chilling and alarming. in terms of the dnc hacks and hacks for hillary clinton and hacks for the dnc, this was a

coordinated effort by russian intelligence. what we see in the mueller report and what we see in other investigations that happened is that the trump campaign was willing to praise and inspire and uplift the work that was happening. the issue of donald trump and his campaign and russia and wikileaks is shady. the mueller report is connecting the dots on that. what we need to do is see the full report. congress needs the full rorepor. we need to move forward one step. this is frightening. everybody should be worried about this. the russian efforts inspired and cheered on by the trump campaign and trump himself. we see it. it is chilling. >> look, there are republicans worried about this. i'll give you the final word, lauren. charged with a crime, but he goes on to say he is sickened and an appalled by the behavior

in the report. what is your reaction and should more republicans express this sentiment? >> i agree with jess with the russian interference. they were trying to disrupt and remove integrity to the election system. >> let's talk about this. more republicans should echo those sentiments? >> i leave that up to the individual republicans. i think we have a diverse group representing different constituencies. i hope everyone encourages good behavior. >> just a reminder, there are 34 indictments around the work. it is not like they haven't found anything. >> point well taken. both of you. jess and what americans want post-mueller report? i'll speak with a member of congress about what his constituents are saying next. cons tituents are say ing next from finding out what's selling best...

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i think it would be perfectly reasonable for congress to open up impeachment proceedings. we can walk and chew gum at the same time. i'm out there all the time talking to the american people about what's important to them and their families. education, health care, jobs. one of the things we need to know is we need a president to trust. >> julian castro looking to start impeachment proceedings, but the house is warning one step at a time.

we have john yarmouth who is representing kentucky. good to see you. thanks for joining me. >> good to see you, alex. >> do you agree with julian castro and senator elizabeth warren that what all was revealed in the mueller report, impeachment proceedings should start in the house right away? >> i think we are essentially doing that. chairman nadler of the jew di judiciary committee issued a full subpoena for the documentation. he is doing what that committee would do if they were initiating proceedings. we are on a path that could lead to impeachment. we are doing everything we need to do. >> you know, the mueller report was exhaustive. particularly if you see the unredacted report. you will see more. why do you need to get more

information? is there not enough in what we have already seen? >> there certainly is enough in my calculation to say that the president has committed impeachable offenses. there is no question about that. you want a full ex-position. unless it is about full bipartisan, we will never dispatch trump from office. so i think we do need all of the information. clearly at this point, the only person who seems to be thinking about possibly voting to convict president trump is mitt romney. we have a long way to go to get enough votes to do that. again, i don't think there is any question. you know what julian castro said is very important. we have an administration now, not just the president, but administration that cannot be trusted. we have seen that with attorney general barr and with the spokes people from the white house. we have seen it from numerous

other cabinet officials when they come to congress or stonewalled congress. this is a crisis in government when you cannot trust virtually anyone in the administration. >> the poll from last weekend, this was before the redacted mueller report was released. it found 54% wanted to move on. what are you hearing from your constituents? what do they want to focus on? other issues? we heard castro saying education, health care, jobs. what are they telling you? >> i think my constituents wants a government that functions and congress that seems to be able to govern. i would say they want us to not just specifically move on, but to make sure we don't ignore our responsibilities to govern. i sit around every week. a meeting of kmit committee cha.

three committees are doing investigations. the oversight and reform and judiciary committee. it is going to be incumbent upon us to make sure that the american people know what we're doing because the risk is we will be legislatinlegislating, governed. >> we will try to stay on top of that. we want to cover all angles. >> not you, alex. >> how about the mueller report? is there something you were not expecting? >> i don't think i was expecting the information that the president said he didn't remember on 30 something different occasions when questioned by lawyers. you know, he once bragged about having the best memory in the world. certainly didn't exemplifying that. >> wasn't that nixonian?

>> of course. it would be recripple natukrrec himself. >> to read certain unredacted sections of the report under protected conditions. eyes only. is that enough for you? >> i think it is an interim step, but we need to have every bit of information possible. i understand when you have different legal processes going on. you have about a dozen investigations that were referred from the special counsel. i understand that we may not need to see all of that specific information. i think we need to know exactly what those investigations are. the intelligence committee, they have been really, really solid under adam schiff's leadership

in keeping things confidential that needed to be kept confidential. i trust them to deal with the material in a very responsible way. you know, we sit around the meetings and adam never tells us anything we're not supposed to hear. >> i tried to push him on things, too. denny see you. what is behind the black didn't see. what none of us saw. we have a look at the ongoing investigations. ave a look at th investigations brighthouse smartcare℠ is a hybrid life insurance and long-term care product. it protects your family while providing long-term care coverage, should you need it. so you can explore all the amazing things ahead. talk to your advisor about brighthouse smartcare. brighthouse financial. build for what's ahead℠

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a new york times analysis found that only about 10% of the report was redacted. a majority, 69% being made because they were related to ongoing investigations and back with me now legal analyst danny cevallos and ashley merchant. danny, 36 pages of redactions. what does that tell you and have you been able to learn anything from the redactions from terms of the location in the report? >> the data shows the majority of the redactions or the plurality is in the area of russia collusion investigation and specifically investigations ongoing investigations that relate to russian social media

campaigns and russian hack and dump campaigns of data and e-mail and other things. that implies that there are significant ongoing matters ongoing investigations and potential harm to investigative techniques as to those russian hacking and social media campaign investigations. >> curiously, ashley, witnesses told mueller the president privately sought information about future wikileaks releases and according to rick gates the president told him more releases of damaging information would be forthcomi forthcoming. you see the relax. right? why is this information important? >> right. and this is part of the ongoing investigations. these are things that they are still investigating to is reason they want the redactions and don't want to put the information in the public is they don't want to jeopardize the ongoing investigation. another area that's important for the redactions is the counterintelligence. we've got people who are

actually actively investigating, actively in the field, learning more investigation, and ongoing and we want to be able to protect those people. those are reasonable redactions. some of the future investigations, we're going to be seeing this information. we just aren't seeing it yet. we've got to wait until those cases are brought into court before the information is released. >> can you get a good sense of what overall most of the redactions pertain to? >> yes. and people who have crunched the data so far including vox, here at nbc and other networks, it appears it's harm to an ongoing matter provides the largest basis for redacting the documents and within that category it's the russian social media campaigns and the other ones i discussed previously. and that makes sense. harm to an ongoing matter means there are pending investigations. not surprisingly the smallest area arguably is the sensitive

private personal information. it is doj policy not to disclose names of people who are not being charged. but at the same time as i expected this would be the smallest category. >> okay. listen, thank you both, ashley and danny. the new questions about 14 other potential crimes uncovered by the mueller report is coming up on "up "at the top of the hour. not this john smith. or this john smith. or any of the other hundreds of john smiths that are humana medicare advantage members. no, it's this john smith. who we paired with a humana team member to help address his own specific health needs. at humana, we take a personal approach to your health, to provide care that's just as unique as you are. no matter what your name is. ♪

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that's it for me. i'll see you at noon eastern. now it's time for "up" with ali vels velshi. >> this is a great treat to be with you again. people forget at some point in recent history you and i used to be together every morning. >> i know. >> we used to wake up together, but don't take that the wrong way. have a good one. >> have a great rest of your day. this is "up". we begin this morning with the battle within the democratic party over impeachment. senator elizabeth warren among those leading the charge and calling on the house to begin the impeachment proceedings against president trump. >> it is about what a president of the united states what the r congress is. we'll ask a democratic congresswoman where she stands. plus spin city. house dems clash with bill barr over the muelleror