gig-fueled apps that exceed expectations. comcast business. beyond fast. that's it for me for this hour. i'll see you at noon eastern. now it's time for "up." kennel kendis gibson is in for david gura. this is "up." i'm in for david gura. what's turning out to be a very busy sunday morning. we have breaking news we're following from overseas that we'll get to in a few moments. we'll begin with what president trump told robert mueller or forgot to tell him. after refusing to sit down for a one-on-one interview for more than a year, the president's great memory failed him even after he boasted at this point. >> one of the great memories of

all time. plus, fearing the wrath of trump. those named in the report are scrambling to remain in the president's good graces, even though he reportedly hasn't even read the mueller report. >> he's a winner in everything he does so anybody who says that he was debbie downer so my presidency is over is an absolute liar. and follow the money. democrats are picking up where mueller left off, digging into president trump's finances and business dealings. but is it all a lost cause? >> hey, i'm under audit. from what i understand, the law is 100% on my side. it is sunday, april 21st. hbo is so over president trump's use of "game of thrones" imagery in his tweets. >> the instant barr's press conference ended, trump tweeted this "game of thrones" themed image. that picture is trump posing next to all the smoke william

barr just blew up his [ bleep ]. >> he doesn't say much. why not? why doesn't he speak? bran on "game of thrones." with me francesca chambers, ken dilanian and danny cevallos. >> i don't have a lot of time covering this president to watch "game of thrones." >> luckily the president gets a lot of time to watch "game of thrones." >> executive time. >> we do start this morning by diving into more revelations revealed by robert mueller's russia investigation. for more than a year, the president refused to be interviewed by the office of special counsel and in the end

agreed to respond to questions only in writing. okay, so we're learning now that trump told prosecutors 36 times that he had no memory of what they were asking. responding to questions with i do not recall. i have no independent recollection. i have no current recollection. it's funny because i thought that trump is always saying he has the greatest memory of all time. >> i have a good memory and all that stuff, like a great memory. i have a really good memory. i have a good memory. i have a great memory. i'm blessed with a great memory. one of the great memories of all time. >> it makes sense when you actually point to it. it helps you realize that you have a great memory but it seems the president's fails himself whenever he finds himself in legal limbo. >> do you remember anything else he told you about the lease? >> no, not at all. >> did you have conversations with ivanka. >> no, not that i remember. >> did you read and approve that statement before it was issued?

>> i probably did, but i don't remember. but i probably did. >> that was from 2016, one of trump's private lawyers defended his client's written answers to mueller saying they are answers, not speculations. my panel is with me. danny, are these actually answers to mueller's questions? >> as a criminal defense attorney, trump is echoing a well-known chestnut in the criminal defense community, which is it's better to not know stuff than it is to know stuff. >> okay. >> and in this case, trump knows the rules. he doesn't remember stuff because it's better for him if he doesn't. now, in fairness, also, when you're asked questions of such import as trump was being asked boy t by the mueller team, you better know for sure if you're giving an affirmative answer, a clear answer. no guessing, no assuming, or else you may find yourself on the hook. trump had attorneys all over him

when he was answering these questions and you can see that in the answers. they don't sound anything like what trump would actually say. >> he got it well oiled and well down pat with the do not recall. ken, do you think if he actually sat down for a one-on-one with mueller the results would have been different? >> first of all, he refused to answer any questions about obstruction of justice. one of the big questions that mueller could not resolve is whether trump had criminal intent. how would you find that out? one way you would ask the president what was in his mind. also by not sitting down for a one-on-one mueller could not confront the president with evidence that might refresh his recollection. this is a huge victory for the president's defense lawyers. they're very happy about this outcome. mueller said he felt he had the legal authority to subpoena the president but he decided not to do it because of the delay it

would ha would have posed. >> there were 35 times that the president said that he didn't remember something during a deposition in the trump university lawsuit back in december 2015. he was just citizen trump at the time. so what does this trend tell us about his character? >> well, i agree with what you're saying, which is if he had said something in the affirmative and it turned out to be wrong, that would have been very problematic for the president. one thing that he did recall saying in response to what you're saying before is that he wrote those answers himself. he said i didn't do this with the help of my lawyers. i sat down and banged it out in about an hour, something to that effect, so it did speak very legalese when you read it and it's very clear that he had the help of his attorneys to answer those questions. and rudy giuliani said so many times that they were guiding him on answering those questions and why they didn't want him sitting down with mueller.

it's because they were concerned that they would ask questions and he would say something that was maybe inflated or not exactly quite right and then that is where they would get him in what giuliani called the perjury trap. >> it's very easy to write your answers when all of the answers are i do not recall, i do not recall currently 35 times. sort of like selective memory. what do you make of this? >> the fact that mueller did not interview him is still quite shocking to me. i think a piece of this leads like palace intrigue and that becomes a little bit of a problem. we're a little bit obsessed with how trump can totally divide the truth. it's shocking how you can say one thing and say a different thing. the fact that he cannot recall on moments that should allegedly feel pretty important in his presidency and yet he has no memory of any of these, it does make you wonder how much memory is a value to him. but it does lead to the palace intrigue of how can he actually operate. we dig into the report and love the details of it. and i worry that it can actually

get us off track of the fact that this is actually a road map of what could potentially be a referral to congress for congress to take it up in further hearings and potentially lead to impeachment. so i do think we need to be clear on moving that piece forward. whether or not it leads to impeachment, it leads the thought process of moving it forward. >> danny, you're a defense attorney, you're an attorney. what would you make of a client that claims constantly that i have the greatest memory of all time and suddenly forgets everything. >> you mean every client in the history of defense? yeah. it happens fairly often that people don't remember things that it seems like they probably should remember. candidly, in defense of criminal defense attorneys, i would have advised donald trump to avoid sitting down in any way, shape or form with the special counsel. but that's a different inquiry as to whether or not president trump as the leader of the free world and the duly elected president had a moral obligation

to sit down with the special counsel. candidly, in most cases when somebody is a target or a subject of an investigation, they are not going to sit down with federal investigators. but i am astounded at the tales of how the president basically told the department of justice, basically told the special counsel's office, go ahead and subpoena me and the special counsel's office says we decided to back down. ask any criminal defense attorney if the doj ever backs down on a dare like that. >> why didn't they push to get an interview? >> that is going to be a huge question and i hope when mueller comes to testify they ask him that question. bill clinton was forced to testify about a lie of a sexual affair. and donald trump is able to blow off testifying about russian interference in our election and whether he obstructed justice. sources in his legal team said they didn't consider it acceptable for the president to take the fifth amendment. had mueller issued the grand

jury subpoena, he would have secured the president's testimony. >> and also if the president had testified or at least spoken to mueller for an in-person interview, he has since complained that some of the things in the special counsel report were not accurate. he said they're misleading, i never said that. he said some other words. but if he had done that in-person interview he would have had a chance to potentially refute some of those things. so we're seeing him do that in tweets. i'm very happiful as a white house reporter that we'll have a chance to ask him some of those questions that we're talking about today like why couldn't he recall so many of those instances. >> i do want you guys to stick around for just a moment because i want to update our viewers on something that's happening overseas right now. some breaking news out of sri lanka. the tiny asian island remains on high alert at this hour after a series of near simultaneous blasts at churches and luxury

hotels in the country's capital. the growth death toll at least 160 are dead, more than 500 others injured. with president trump saying the u.s. stands ready to help the terror attacks on this easter sunday, seemingly timed to inflict the most damage, ripping across the country as officials worry of even more damage to come. let's go to london to nbc's foreign correspondent, sara harmon, who's been monitoring the situation. we are getting word that there are several foreigners among the dead. >> yeah, hey, good morning. a senior government official is saying there could be around 30 foreigners among the dead. they're also saying seven arrests have been made. so far no group has claimed responsibility for these attacks. the first rounds of explosions that you mentioned began around 8:45 a.m. local time just as worshippers were attending easter sunday mass. the timing does feel significant here. these near simultaneous blasts ripping through three different

churches around the country on easter sunday. also targeted, three luxury hotels in the capital. the shangri-la, cinnamon grand and kingsbury hotel. these are popular with foreign tourists and the business community. according to the senior government officials, at least 160 killed, as you mentioned. but that number could well rise. hundreds have been admitted to the main hospital. the government is trying s desperately to contain this situation. they are telling people to remain in their houses and also shutting down major social media sites. the archbishop put out a statement cancelling all easter eve services. the pope condemning these attacks this morning on what's shaping up to be a tragic easter for the world's catholics after first that fire at notre dame cathedral and now these horrific attacks in see laungsri lanka.

>> the u.s. state department is monitoring the situation, at one point telling people to hunker down. you mentioned some of those hotels. besides the churches, it would almost seem as if by targeting those this was possibly an attack on the west as well. those are popular hotel names with foreigners. >> yeah, these are hotels that everyone knows lots of people will have stayed there on their travels abroad. it's really early days. we have to be super careful speculating who did this and why. given the information we're working off of now, it does appear that believers and perhaps westerners were a target. >> what a horrific easter sunday for many people there in asia. we'll continue to watch that story as it develops and it continues to develop. sarah harman there, thank you. up ahead, he was referenced more than any other white house official within the mueller report. did a former white house counsel save donald trump from himself? we'll have that debate after the break.

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welcome back to "up." i'm kendis gibson in for david gura. as we come up on 72 hours since the release of the mueller report, no person is emerging as a bigger player than don mcgahn. hundreds of people were interviewed in the two-year investigation but no witness testimony was cited more often in the special counsel's report than the president's former

white house counsel. i'd like to bring back my panel right now. i've noticed since we've sat down not a single person has dug into the "up" pastry plate. >> i'm fighting the urge and biding my time. >> you brought the cookies, right? >> i did bring the cookies. these are my mother-in-law's, she hand makes these cookies. she said to me today i want you to make sure that kendis gibson gets a cookie. he's such a nice man. i wish my daughter would have married him instead of -- well, i don't want to get into that. it's a whole family thing. >> i completely agree with your mother-in-law, by the way. >> that her daughter shouldn't have married me, yes, i know. >> i read the tweets. they really like this one. this is a fan favorite. >> that's the bunny butt. >> nobody has an excuse anymore that they gave it up for lent. >> i just can't handle pastry in

the morning. >> if you eat the carrot, i think that's healthier. >> also joining the panel is the distinguished professor and presidential historian, alan lipman. let's get back to the conversation, shall we. tell me what it is that don mcgahn told the special counsel that made him such a significant witness, ken. >> well, so many things, right, but perhaps the most intriguing part of it was essentially trump ordering the firing of mueller and mcgahn and others refusing to carry it out. and then going and taking notes about all these episodes and speaking to the special counsel about it. we knew this through media reports, but it's one thing to see it in the media, it's another thing to see it in black and white in the special counsel's report. to the extent that the obstruction of justice case is robust against donald trump, don

mcgahn is a key witness in that case. >> and that's the clear part there, alan, isn't it. don mcgahn sat with prosecutors for 30 hours and met with them more than nine times. we had to have known that he would have played a key part in the writing of the mueller report. >> no question about that. but i've got to put this in a little bit of perspective. don mcgahn is no hero simply because he didn't carry out the most unhinged orders of this president. you know, some of richard nixon's aides did not carry out some of his more extraordinary orders like firebombing the brookings institution. don mcgahn, when he was with the federal election commission, did his best to throttle the campaign finance laws. he has worked with donald trump to salt the federal judiciary with extreme conservatives. he is a major figure in

throttling our environmental regulations and subjecting every american to the threat of extreme climate change. >> don't we think he's a major figure based on the report in avoiding a constitutional crisis if the president had gone ahead and done some of the things that he's accused of doing in the report? >> you know, in a sense i wish the president had gone ahead and fired robert mueller because then we would have immediately done what the u.s. house must do under the u.s. constitution, begin an impeachment inquiry. but because the mueller report is so ambiguous, has so little that is new, i worry that the congress will shirk its responsibilities, that this president will get away with undermining the constitution and the law with no retribution whatsoever. >> danny, in the meantime, bob

barr wrote an op-ed. he says mr. mcgahn made it commendably clear to the president that he was an institutional lawyer, not his personal lawyer, and that their conversations about matters before the special counsel were not privileged. so would it be safe to say that the president got a roy cohn but got instead a john dean? >> he got a don mcgahn. don mcgahn was at least following the rules of ethics and the law. when clients give us orders, generally the client is right, like the customer. but if the client asks us to go beyond the rules of ethics, go beyond the law, we are required as lawyers to resist and to stop representing that person if we have to. >> and i think that the reason that we're actually -- he is in some way like a little bit of a hero in this story, i think it's just because the standards are so unbelievably low in this

administration. we've seen time after time of self-dealing, of use of power whether it's in the white house, out of the white house, in the administration, for clients, for self-enrichment, for self-dealing so i think that's where the standard is for this administration. we see someone who holds just the line of a constitutional crisis seems incredible. it takes me back to the beginning of the administration when there was a question of republican politicals, democratic politicals and career people in the administration saying is it worth it to stick out your post and try to contain him a little bit and try to get the work of whatever the job is done despite the president. i think what people are saying is it's not worth that deal. >> can i jump in here? >> go ahead, professor. >> yes. it is extraordinary that we have a president whose model for a lawyer is roy cohn who worked hand in hand with senator joseph mccarthy to facilitate one of

the most shameful and harmful episodes in american history, the great red scare of the 1950s. and by the way, we know that when he was sued by the justice department for violating the fair housing laws, who did donald trump turn to in the 1970s? roy cohn. it's also shameful that we have a president who is now considering using the power of his office to punish his political enemies, maybe even to funnish don mcgahn for not following his unconstitutional orders. this is putin-like and this is not american. >> francesca, weigh in, because danny is too busy chewing. >> i was also going to say about his model for a lawyer was michael cohen as well. and he says in the report why do you take notes, to don mcgahn, a real lawyer doesn't take notes. my first reaction to that was,

no, your lawyers are recording you and you don't know about it. so maybe michael cohen wasn't taking notes because he was recording you on the phone instead. >> roy cohn who said i don't know what the law is, i want to know who the judge is. >> might as well be trump. >> if mcgahn really wanted to be a hero, he would have gone public and said the president is giving me illegal orders and i'm resigning and the american people should do this immediately. he didn't do that so the question of whether he's a hero will be debated in history. >> and there's almost a model for that with mathis and john kelly to some degree. >> by the way, there is a "new york times" article that stated mueller witnesses who once served in the white house are now fearing the wrath of trump. do we know if don mcgahn is one of those witnesses? obviously probably might be, but who else? >> he doesn't work there anymore

and many of the people who were involved in this mueller report do not work there anymore. michael flynn, mcgahn, he's not there anymore. jeff sessions, he's not there anymore. rod rosenstein on his way out. so i think the current white house officials who are still there, that's a possibility, but it's a dwindling group of people working at the white house who were there at the begin and over this time that james comey was fired. >> there's a line of hedge right there near the rose garden but i get a sense that many white house staffers will look like homer simpson and just trying to -- >> any time in a presidency after some folks have been there for two years, three years, that's when people start to head for the exits anyway. maybe this will have facilitated some of those, that's possible. if you see people heading for the exits, this is roughly the time when you would expect that

for a presidency anyway. >> alan, you were one of the first to predict trump would be elected. do you predict impeachment or re-election? >> you know, for a long time i have been sticking to my prediction of impeachment, but i worry that the democrats have learned nothing, that they will once again play not to lose, avoid what is constitutionally their duty to hold an impeachment inquiry, not to rush into impeachment. by the way, it's not just the material in the mueller report. the obstruction of justice material, it's ten times more damning than the material against bill clinton when virtually every republican voted for his impeachment. but there are a whole host of other issues. let's not forget he's implicated in two felonies for campaign finance law violations. these are not technical violations. the campaign finance laws are

designed to avoid the corruption of our political system. he is implicated in violating the emoluments clause of the constitution. he's implicated in financial crimes. surely this merits an impeachment investigation if democrats have any spine at all. >> i'm a huge professor lichtman fan and he's absolutely right. the doj takes the position already that president trump, not yet president trump, violated campaign finance law when michael cohen stood up in court and said exactly that. that may be the next avenue. >> we'll leave it at that right now. professor, our thanks to you on this easter sunday. >> of course. >> is this keto? >> yes, it is. it is. >> perfect. good to know. so first it was sanctions are coming. then it became game over. how donald trump's baffling obsession with "game of thrones" knows no bounds and is starting to border on the absurd, next.

>> there is only one wall that matters, the great wall. >> we will build the great wall. billions of mouths.

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became a great show, very, very successful show, tremendously successful. i did it for 14 seasons, 12 years. so successful they put it on twice sometimes. >> so donald trump, the first reality tv star ever elected president, likes tv. he likes to watch it. he likes to talk about it. he even likes to live tweet about it. but lately his preference for reality tv seems to have veered toward fantasy. his current fixation -- that, of course, hbo series "game of thrones" and, yes, we're all aub said. 17.5 million people watched the premiere last sunday but what's to explain the president's obsession of "game of thrones." maybe he thought there would be more elephants? >> elephants? >> no elephants, your grace.

>> that's disappointing. i was told the golden company had elephants. >> what does it mean? okay, i digress. on thursday the president used the show to celebrate the release of the redacted mueller report tweeting this "game of thrones" style meme, no collusion, no obstruction, for the haters and the radical left democrats, game over. remember last november he blended western politics when he teased he would be imposing sanctions on iran with this tweet. the same image appeared as a giant movie poster during a cabinet meeting. and during the longest shutdown in u.s. history, trump tweeted, "the wall is coming." >> we have no border, we have no control. people are flooding across. we need to build a wall and it has to be built quickly. >> so some of it is funny,

really. while he might see himself as a character like john snow, they released this statement. though we can understand the enthusiasm for "game of thrones" now that the final season has arrived, we still prefer our intellectual property not be used for political purposes. "game of thrones" may only have five episodes left, but as rick wilson, a conservative writer and trump critic writes in "the daily beast" the implications of the mueller report are just starting. offering this spoiler alert. mueller's obstruction section practically screams for congress to dig deeper and exercise their right to hold the president accountable for his actions, including most certainly abuse of powers of his office and never take a victory lap until you're sure the race is over. trump hijacked the "game of thrones" font to tweet "game over" but it still looks more like winter is coming. from the fictional throne to the real one. how's this for a side step.

a happy 93rd birthday to the wuone and only queen elizabeth this morning. more "up" is just ahead. we'll be right back. more "up" i. we'll be right back. down. ah ah! that's one. up. that's two. down. down. get down, get down. hi, what's this social security alert? it's a free alert if we find your social security number on the dark web. good, cuz i'm a little worried about my information getting out. why's that? [bird speaking] my social is 8- 7- 5 dash okay, i see. [bird laughing] somebody thinks it's hilarious. free social security alerts from discover.

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♪ welcome back to "up." as paris begins to rebuild its iconic notre dame cathedral, they'll do so with an abundance of financial resources. since the tragic fire on monlds fund-raising efforts have topped

$1.1 billion. also, experience a bit of financial windfall, many churches back here at home. this is video of the palace in paris where the president lives. but back here at home, fund-raising efforts for black churches burnt down in louisiana are taking place. according to "the new york times," go fund me for the three historical black churches surged from less than $90,000 to over $2 million in the days after the notre dame fire, thanks in part to leaders like hillary clinton taking to social media to raise awareness for the southern houses of worship. i'd like to bring my panel back as well as bring into the conversation civil rights activist and my colleague here at msnbc making his big premiere on "up," wow, is it something i did? is it because i'm here? >> it's easter. >> that's why. >> we have risen. >> we have risen indeed.

"politicsnation" host reverend al sharpton. appreciate you being here. what do you make of the contrast, once notre dame started burning, already people were donating money. in the meantime you have so many churches that got very little attention back here in the u.s. and very little money sent to it. >> well, i, first of all, don't begrudge the outpouring of charity and concern for notre dame. i've been to paris, been to notre dame. what i do wonder is where was the american spirit and media in terms of the outrage with the three historic black churches in louisiana who were intentionally burned. we have been told with notre dame that it was an act that happened naturally. we know it was arson that has now been charged as a hate crime in louisiana. and what also is most disturbing is we've not seen one tweet or statement from the president of the united states.

the president who tweeted and came out rightfully so about notre dame, came out this morning about sri lanka and the massacre there, and he should have. silent, radio silent about three historic churches in his own nation where he's president. there is a political strategy around this president always distancing himself when it comes to things that affect black people or people of color. >> is it because of -- >> once or twice it's a coincidence. when it becomes a pattern, it becomes a strategy. >> on that note, are you at all surprised that it took the high-profile burning of notre dame, a church fire there, for all these public figures to come ahead and get attention as to what's happening there in the south? >> i think it's very heartening that public figures are using this moment to say, yes, again, like you noted, it is great that people are coming to support

notre dame but let's also look inward and make sure we're supporting not just -- again, this actually wasn't a hate crime like an act of violence. the fact that it's becoming not a cultural expectation but it is really. i think the culture is moving, that it is on elected officials and the public figures to use their platform for social good. we are seeing more and more of that. that piece i do find heartening. whether it's in sharp contrast purposely to the president, which is -- it's just so incredibly striking, if he's going to run on america first and then doesn't talk about things that don't have to be political. it's only political because he doesn't talk about it. >> and all of that said, these churches haven't received a single promise of federal money to help them out. >> not one dime. >> not a dime. >> and we're saying we're going to help in other nations, but we're not going to do so in louisiana. these are three historic churches. these churches are over century years old.

they were founded right after slavery during reconstruction. it was not only the faith but it was also the business and education and political place for freed slaves. so it's a real history of this country. to ignore that but you react to everything else, he reacts to a television show. but you don't react to hate arson in your own nation where you're the president of the united states? that's deliberate and he needs to be called out on it even on easter sunday morning. >> it is kind of striking that he has responded to "game of thrones" several times and not to these church bombings at all. apples and oranges, i know. francesca, what's at play for the white house? you cover the white house. why hasn't the president said a word about what's happening there but was quick to respond about notre dame as it was burning. >> i can't see inside the mind of the president, but what i can tell you of the perspective of how has it otherwise not come up, it's at these departures where he leaves the white house to go other places is often when

we have an opportunity to ask the president questions to force him onto topics that we would like to ask about. he has not been taking questions at those. and part of the reason for that would seemingly be the mueller report in the days prior to it. he did not have a lot on his public schedule. he didn't stop on friday, for instance, when he was going to mar-a-lago and walking with the first lady. so there haven't been opportunities to force him off the topics that he wants to talk about in his tweets. >> rev, it is easter sunday. we spent black history month meeting quite a bit. you mentioned that was the worst black history month that you've experienced. we've had notre dame burn this week. >> slri lanka this morning. >> these black churches this week. is this one of the most difficult, worst easter sundays you've seen us entering in? >> it is one of the worst and most tragic easter sunday mornings.

there's a message i'm preaching later in harlem's st. luke's church. one of the messages that we found that was not burned in notre dame was the crown. that to me was symbolic. we are going to have suffering, but the easter sunday morning sermon is that we will rise above the crown of thorns. we will get by the crucifixion if you believe in the resurrection. you don't have to be religious to believe that we can rise above that. we must do that but we must call truth out to rise above those who would lie and deceive. >> and i would say amen. >> that doesn't excuse you from church, by the way. >> happy passover for those who are celebrating as well. by the way, tune in next weekend i should mention for an msnbc special with the rev. he puts the 2020 democratic hopefuls to the test on race

andinand inequality. it is called not just black and white, race and the 2020 election. he is staring at you right there saying you better watch. all right, thank you. up next, it was the red line or one of the red lines the president warned robert mueller not to cross. the mueller report's big omission and how congress is picking up where the special counsel left off, next. left offt at carvana, no matter what car you buy from us,

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a warm welcome back to up". the final mueller report that contained details that were harmful and politically damaging to president trump. after digesting all 448 makes, there is one glaring omission, any mention of trump's finances. three democratic investigations are picking up the money trail mueller left behind digging deep into trump's taxes and business dealings including with deutsche bank. danny, we look into all of this. what are these house democrats going to learn from looking after his money right now? >> recall mueller's mandate was very narrow. that's why you saw about a dozen cases many of which we don't

know about yet that were farmed out, referred out to other u.s. attorneys' offices including, for example, the southern district of new york. mueller wisely knew that there would be attacks on any prosecutions that appeared outside of his mandate. exhibit a to that is manafort's attempt to throw out his prosecution as beyond the original mandate of mueller. mueller was right in predicting something like getting into trump's finances which seems far afield of russian collusion and obstruction of justice was not a tactically wise thing to do, which is why he sent it outside. he was prescient because that's exactly what paul manafort tried to do. he failed. but he tried and mounted a considerable legal argument that his prosecution was outside of the mandate. >> as you know, the president said ha if you get to his finances, that would be the red line there. clearly based on the mueller report, mueller didn't necessarily follow that as much. why did he say that and why is

that still the case? >> he's not going to be able to control at this point what other people investigate, whether that's in new york or virginia. it's out of his control. i don't think he's going to have a choice. what's been really interesting about this is that the white house hired a press person who handle the congress and all these investigations earlier this year. so that really showed that their realization, how important not just the mueller report but the congressional investigations, the southern district of new york and having someone able to answer questions about this issue. >> we don't know the for a fact robert mule are did not donald trump's finances. we know it's not in the report. there's a lot not in the report on the count are intelligence vein which is the question is donald trump or anyone around him compromised by a foreign

adversary. that may not be illegal. i reported on friday that the counter intelligence investigation continuing and something that house democrat and adam schiff said they're going after, an they're subpoenaing deutsche bank. >> the counter intelligence investigation, if that is still ongoing and say the president is the subject of that investigation. >> that's an open question. we don't know. >> if he is, would it be placed in the mueller report redacted or unredacted? if you're investigating? >> it's a curious decision they made to leave that out entirely after andrew mccabe said we opened a counter intelligence investigation into the president. i surmise it's classified, it's ongoing and farmed out. it's not just focusing on trump and the people around him but also on the russians and what they're continuing to try to do to interfere with our politics. often they don't result in

criminal charges. the remedy is mitigation. if someone is compromised their security clearance can be revoked. you can't do that with the president of the united states. that's the dilemma. it's unclear how the fbi which works for the president is going to make sure the president and people around him aren't influenced in some way by russia. >> especially when they've gotten this mess and from all the information coming out from the reporting and everything in the mueller investigation. if there's any clearer mess and from the top it's loyalty. it's stick with me and loyalty. i feel like republicans in particular are acting like there's no mandate right now to be investigating. there is. we just had an election. >> look at this message from the top. the president must be listening. here's his easter message. despite no collusion, he just tweeted this moments ago, no obstruction, the radical left democrats do not want to -- it's the same lines. this cost the dems big time in 2020. >> he clearly understands that

congress is not going to rest. these investigations are not over. there are all these other criminal investigations farmed out including ones we know implicate people around the president in the southern district of new york. >> sdny still a threat? >> 100%, absolutely. >> and state authorities, too. that is an area he cannot pardon himself. i should add a rather ominous thought that a lawyer advising him might suggest that now when you have the cleanest bill of health possible, now may be the time to try that self-pardon out and see if it sticks sfwhooks 1 months to go before the election, that would be interesting. thank you guys appreciate it, the panel for this hour, francesca chambers dilanian as well as danny cevallos. coming up the impeach emt. will congress act or pump the issues to votes? plus donald trump's team

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welcome back to "up." happy easter and passover. we're going to start this hour with a debate that has been ignited between the democratic party and political pundits over the fallout, of course, from the

redacted mueller report being described as a road map, a referral to congress for the impeachment of the president on the basis he obstructed justice. this morning, there is a clear divide stumping yesterday in new hampshire, senator elizabeth warren says yes, it's time. >> we cannot be an america that says it is okay for a president of the united states to try to block investigations. so i have called on the house to initiate impieachment pr democrats like harris who are talking a little bit more cautious tone saying let's wait and see. to come before congress to testify. i want to be able to see the full unredacted report. and specifically also the underlying evidence.

>> is that what is publicly available not enough for your eyes? >> i want to see the evidence. >> and mayor pete beauty egg said let the voters actually decide. >> i'll leave that to congress. there's more evidence still coming in as the subpoenas work their way through. you can see lots of evidence that this president deserves to be impeached but since i'm not in congress, i'm focused on replacing him the old fashioned way. >> for historical context, only two u.s. presidents have been impeached. you know about bill clinton. andrew johnson being is the person on the left. neither was convicted. richard nixon resigned before congress moved to impeach him. with republicans currently controlling the senate, it's unlikely that president trump would be convicted if the house filed articles of impeachment against him. a majority of americans are against it. 59% say he shouldn't be impeached. vox founder ezra klein says he

sees real political consequences with a presidential election just 18 months away. here's what he wrote. absent public support for impeachment and amid a strong economy, it would give the white house an opportunity to run the playbook, bill clinton ran so successfully in the 1990s. here's trump focusing on economic growth and there are the democrats focusing on their doomed vendetta against the president. while andrew sullivan is concerned about the consequences of not impeaching writing in new york magazine, here's what he says, he says that trump is not just a cancer in the presidency. his presidency is a cancer in our constitution and way of life. how long do we let they metastasize even further? >> kind of sounded like george conway, kellyanne's husband who wrote that there's a cancer on the presidency. so the demes are trying to answer many of those questions right now. up with me this morning reason magazine editor-in-chief catherine mango ward, jill pain

white, defense attorney and former chair of the national bar association pac, a. scott boldin msnbc politics editor, beth fuohy. we should mention in our washington msnbc national security analyst ned price. feel free to dig in on the dessert plate at any point. a. scott, i know you have to get back to make us all dinner at 3:00 p.m. >> you want me to leave with dessert, right? >> you could take a plate. it's acceptable. >> my waistline loves it. >> so let me start with you, joel, because this is a big question many of the demes are trying to figure out right now, to impeach or not. what's the gauge right now? >> this is the new parlor game in d.c. it's interesting because the pressures automatically turn to democrats. this is a time where the president is the person in peril but it's democrats that find

themselves under a lot of pressure. there's twos schools of thought. one is work within the system, there's a pathway to defeating trump at the ballot lot box in 18 months. another is not just let's impeach him now but it's a dare ligs of duty if you don't. that's what the democrats are starting to hear from constituents and activists on the far polls of the base. i think what democrats have to remember is the reason why we are seeing the mueller report is because of the system. there's institutions in place, controls in place that have made sure that we could see this report. democrats won five months ago because they ran on health care. that's the reason why people like jerry nadler and adam schiff can put this kind of pressure on the white house to show more documents and on bill barr. democrats have to be thoughtful about why it's important to work within the system and why maybe to not shotgun the impeachment process. >> they do run a dangerous zone

if they overplay their hand. >> keep in mind elizabeth warren for all her passion and strength there, it does not run the house of representatives. nancy pelosi does and she's against impeachment. she's used the term that president trump is not worth it. he's not worth putting the country through the kind of wrenching agony that will an impeachment would cause. and there are other means for democrats to act in congress short of impeachment. you're referring to adam schaff, jerry nadler, they are planning more nadler issued a subpoena for the full unredacted report. there are ways for congress to get on the record with this short of impeachment. out on the campaign trail, voters aren't talking about this. the democrats are very eager to replace trump. they've showing up at campaign events in very large numbers but not talking about russia or impeachment. there's a hard-core maybe after activists who want that.

most democrats want to run on other things. that's why you hear what nancy pelosi has been saying, let's not do that. >> you're saying all those people with the blue check mark are not america? >> twitter is not life. >> twitter is twitter. >> go ahead. >> i agree with everyone. i agree with the political ramifications. somehow doing nothing sounds insufficient. it is a political process. impeachment is a political process. the founders of the constitution made it political because they could have put it in the criminal justice system but didn't. here's why is i don't think we can wait. look who else has been impeached. bill clinton was impeached over lying and perjury in regard to monica lewincy. jackson was impeached. but here the obstruction which is the strongest claim whether collusion or conspiracy is there or not, obstruction of justice which you can doc about ten counts on, this is about

russia's meddling with our election, a candidate inviting russia or in acceptance of its help. that's very different of the other two occasions despite polling or politics. you've got to the make that move. if you don't then the investigations. what will our answers be to the future of this country if we don't acts. >> ned, weigh in all of this. you previously worked within the obama administration. you get a sense though that the trump administration itself, what hand would be a better hand for them to play to allow the democrats to run with impeachment or have that "i" word as an as rick next to president trump where he joins johnson, clinton and trump in the impeachment category? >> i think they are absolutely in a lose/lose situation. that's what they don't want to admit. if democrats don't run with this, democrats can focus on any number of issues from health care and jobs and the economy, if they do run with this, there

are 448 pages of talk of conspiracy and obstruction of justice that democrats can use to hammer president trump over the head. when we talk about this debate and i'm struck by the fact that only democrats seem to be called upon to render a judgment on to imimpeach or not. one party seems to get a pass which is something worth pausing on. it strikes meese ow different our political discourse been had the attorney general not seemingly lied to us several weeks ago in march when he sent his letter to congress. if he had been forth right there that there are several passages in the report where special counsel mueller and his team were quite clear they were referring this not to the attorney general, not to the deputy general but to congress, i think there would be much less question what we do now. it would be quite clear what mueller's intent was and

congress i think would be much more reacceptive to acting right now. >> you want to weigh in on that? >> i think the main thing here is exactly what you just said, no one is asking the question what are republicans going to do now that we out the mueller report. this was always a partisan issue. no one changed their mind after seeing this report. that's not surprising even to the founders, right? they understood impeachment was always going to be not only a political question but a partisan one. hamilton himself said this will inflame partisan sentiment when we use this tool. >> i want to return to ezra's article that he wrote in vox. he writes impeachment is not legal, it's political. with the election 18 months away, do you agree with him on that? go ahead. >> frankly, i would love to see the impeachment power used more. when you think about the presidents we have had, right? they're not a flawless crew. there are plenty of presidents who probably could be have stood

more scrutiny from congress. >> you're not talking about franklin pierce. >> i would never come after him. >> but i think that this is a role that congress is meant to play and they have historically abdicated that role as they are currently. that's why we're having this debate and this discussion. >> the system's working. > i'm an institutionalist. i worked in the senate for eight years. i don't know if i quite agree with that, but here's something else what i like to elevate. >> you like frustration. >> i like frustration. i look the pooling saucer of democracy. here's what i would say also, normally around this point, these presidential candidates start becoming the titular spokespersons of their parties, elizabeth warrens and pete boot enls and on and on. for democrats that is nancy pelosi. she is the spokesman for the democratic party and her voice

matters most right now. when that changes then you might see a change in democratic attitude. >> isn't it because there are so many of them snep warren saying i call for i'm peachment. pete says let's have an election. >> joe biden we expect to get into the race this week. he will immediately assume the mantle of front-runner till proven otherwise. he'll be closely questioned about this issue. he will be the one who will be asked most where he stands on this question. >> we're going to talk about joe later. ned, to you one more question there. you saw some of the mueller report. i assume you didn't read all 44 pages as yet. what is it that stood out the most to you and was most alarming as a national security person? >> i think what's most alarming is what's n not in the report. there are 448 pages divided between two volumes and several exhibits. but the mueller report is also explicit about the fact that the

counter intelligence findings of counter intelligence investigation that for all we know may be ongoing with not contained in the report and there's there's this is really interesting passage in volume 1 of the report that says for the last year of the mueller investigation, there was an fbi at least fbi agents embedded with the special counsel's team memorializing the counter intelligence findings. sending them back to fbi headquarters, sending them to fbi field offices giving us the impression there's pretty vol lummous if for a year they did this on a routine basis. we don't know the results of that. adam schiff made it very clear that he deserves and is going to requesting access to this. but to my mind, that is where the real meat of the national security implications of this report are. we know from the report president trump at least attempted to obstruct justice. we know from the report that the trump campaign wanted the

support of the russian government but what does all this mean? what does this mean for national security? that's something we don't yet know and we need to learn more about. >> intriguing. i didn't pick up on that part of the fbi agent embedded with the investigation. pretty good tee from ned price. thank you. >> the panel and rest of the panel sticks around. up ahead, the president's defenders hit the sunday talk shows in full swing lashing out against trump's opponents. so what they're saying and who they're going after next. t theyo they're going after next in fore) i'm sorry i don't understand... ♪ help! i need somebody ♪ help! not just anybody ♪ help! you know i need someone

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welcome back to "up." breaking news from overseas at this hour out of sri lanka, look at some of the scenes. the island on high alert after a series of eight coordinated blasts. they rocked churches and several luxury hotels that are popular are western tourists. this taking place in the capital of that tiny country.

the death toll growing to more than 200 dead and nearly 450 injured. this is expected to rise and the alarming thing we're learning close to 30 foreigners are among those killed according to a senior government official there. the terror attacks on this easter sunday seemingly timed to inflict the most damage ripping across the country with officials worried of more to come instituting a capitalwide curfew and shutting down social media. president trump monitoring the situation from mar-a-lago issued condolences this morning saying the u.s. stands ready to help. we'll have the latest on the breaking story there from have i lanka, at least 200 people are dead, many foreigners. more as we get it. we're going to switch gear to the story at home. president trump's personal attorney blitzing the major sunday morning news shows. i'm not talking about attorney general william barr although that's a valid giuliani.

here's rudy giuliani. >> is there anybody that believes michael cohen and would he even get past ten minutes of cross-examination? i could point to all sorts of things about michael dhooen should have been pointed out that he's lying about, some of it they know and they're withholding. > i have never heard him one time say this is the end of my candidacy. this is the end of my presidency. i'm never heard him utter those words. we've been in pretty impossible situations together. that is not the way he speaks. >> i've been next to donald trump dozens, hundreds, thousands of times and never heard him be debbie downer. anybody who says he was debbie downer, my presidency is over is buttigieg absolute liar. >> good time on the sunday talk shows no doubt. as i was saying what better way to break down all of this and the former watergate prosecutor who is with me right now, nick

akerman joining the panel, as well. welcome to you. >> thank you. >> and thank you all for being here. trump's inner circle last night and as well as this is morning, by the way we'll have more what are rudy giuliani was saying later. they went all out after their primary sources of the mueller report, don mcgahn and michael cohen. what do you make of this sort of offense that they cape out on? >> a pretty weak defense. all these people they're attacking are insiders within the trump organization. if you look at this you've got at least 10 to 15 witnesses including don mcgahn, what's her flame becca brand. they're saying these people didn't say this stuff but yet they've got contemporarious memos and notes things they wrote at the time all of this happened because it was so os studenting to them. >> and sworn testimony, too. throw that in. >> you've got people, here's rudy giuliani talking about

michael cohen before michael cohen flipped, rudy giuliani was saying michael cohen is a decent guy, he's electric. you can believe everything he says. now all of a sudden that he's talking about everything that trump did, you can't believe this guy. he's corroborated, as well by tapes that he's done with trump, by documents that they took in the search warrant. so all of this is really going nowhere as far as i can see. >> let me get your take on the report quickly, nick. former federal prosecutor for watergate there. you said to me during the break as you read on, it just gets better and more intriguing. why is it then it steams have landed on deaf ears for so many people in this political atmosphere. it is 400 and some odd pails. it took me two days to read through the whole thing. >> you didn't see your wife. >> i'm a nerd on this stuff anyway. i got into but most people will not get into it. if you really start reading between the lines, for example, page 176, if you look at

footnote 1278, there's all this discussion about no conspiracy. yes, they couldn't find a conspiracy but they actually did find collusion because the reason they didn't charge anybody here is unlike watergate where our laws actually fit the crime, you could actually charge somebody with burglary. you couldn't charge anybody with using the data and facilitating stolen data from the democratic national committee because our federal criminal law does not encompass the use. >> you're saying this is as much a burglary as watergate was. >> it's hi-tech. laws don't deal with hi-tech. that's the issue. >> kellyanne conway was on "this week" moments ago. let's play a clip and get your reaction into this report does not conclude that the president committed a crime. it also does not exonerate him. >> that's not the job of a prosecutor. the job of a prosecutor is to

gather evidence and decide whether to indict or decline to indict. they declined to indict about the the president is not going to jail. he's staying in the white house for 5 1/2 more years. not only was obstruction of justice not found, that there was complete compliance. >> come again? come again? >> i mean. >> even if you didn't make it to footnote 1278, the obstruction of justice laid out for half the report. >> i actually think it's generous of you to say the reason that the real key points in in report haven't landed is because it's so long and complicated. most of the people who are responding to this report weren't ever going to read those pages. it doesn't matter what's in that beautiful footnote because the real response is exactly what we just saw from kellyanne conway and giuliani which is the people who say our thing is a lie, are themselves liars, they are garbage people. never mind they used to work for

us look the other way. it's partisanship. >> it's also a hallmark of how the trump administration and insiders handle information is to tell you what you're seeing and reading those notes, those tarngs the sworn testimony isn't real. it's confuse fusion, it's sowing distortion. everybody is left saying i don't know what's true anymore. >> one of those items labeled as obstruction of justice, mueller analyzes each one of them. any one of those i used to convict people for less than that. i've represented people as a defense lawyer and i've had clients convicted for less than any one of these things. the idea that there is no obstruction of justice here is total nonsense. >> we'll get back to it. >> even buttigieg attempt of obstruction of justice is indictable, just the attempt. >> it's buttigieg endeavor, that's what the courts say.

>> whether it's a crime or not. >> we'll get back to that and more on this in a little bit. we'll pivot to the 2020 race. he is set to enter the field as front-runner. can he get past the number of challenges and challengers in his way coming up next. challenges and challengers in his way coming up next mornings were made for better things than

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candidates are still out on the campaign trail. kamala harris is in south carolina over the ageaster service today as she tried to pull ahead in a packed field of candidates. northbound's vaughn hillyard is with her campaign in columbia. yesterday he was at a fish fry nearby. today he's in columbia. i've got a dessert plate for you on this easter. what's the latest down there? >> reporter: please pass along the dessert plates. we've got buttigieg easter day to take care of here. we're now in columbia. yesterday. >> go ahead. >> reporter: yesterday, kendis we actually stopped for some saturday churching with kamala harris. she stopped at buttigieg ame church in holly hill, south carolina and this morning she is here in columbia, another easter service. i wanted to read you, at the other church she took a message when it came to easter saying in part we will go through dark

times but when we are deep in our faith and see the possibilities of what can be unburdened by what has been, we can get through it. that was her easter message to the church last night in holly hill. yesterday, along with going to church she talked about impeachment and the potential proceedings. i asked harris yesterday whether she agreed under knowing what is already publicly available everybody that redacted mueller report whether she would support impeachment proceedings. she told me at this point, what she wants is robert mueller to come before congress to testify. she said she also wants to see the unredacted report as well as all of the underlying evidence that was made available to the special counsel's office. at that point, then with all of that evidence, she said because she is a prosecutor by career, she said she would make that determination. she said though at the forefront of her mind at the moment she called william barr's press conference, she said it was a dereliction of duty and

shameful. one other note last night she tweeted out this is something throughout the spring kamala harris has made a point talking about ahead of the elections is her call for the transition to having paper ballots everywhere across the country. she has said last night in a tweet that russia cannot tap into paper ballots. that it has a trail and has a record and it's something that has been on her mind going through the states here. >> interesting take on what she's running on there in south carolina. vaughn hillyard, thank you so much. we'll save the dessert for you back here in new york. in the meantime, joe biden is set to end months of speculation by formally announcing a pressure bid. he will enter the race as the clear democratic front-runner. we know he's already flipped buttigieg announcement video at his childhood home in scranton. the big question, what will his opening message be? my panel is back with me.

beth, you'll be following it. i assume it's coming wednesday, we believe. >> there's been reporting it's wednesday. we believe it's this week and the exact day may be a little bit fungible. his message implicitly as a candidate he has been, let's return to america to a place of being respected, trusted, believed. i'm this elder statesman. i've been in public life for 50 years. the countries of the world know and respect me. i can bring together the democratic party. those white working class voters who helped push donald trump to victory in 2016 are my people. i can bring them back into the democratic party. it's going to be a discussion of unity and kind of a backward focused message. that's the implicit problem. it's not where most democrats are. they want to move forward and take their party sort of to a next place. joe biden's talking about experience as opposed to the future. >> there's another candidate with a backward focused message.

two years ago. who was it? >> almost like maybe we could do something to make america great again? >> good again? oh, great again. will that win with the democratic field? >> the candidate too though. >> this is the problem with joe biden. he has do decades of a record. that record is mixed, not where the democratic party is right now. we've seen kamala harris struggle a little bit with her record as a prosecutor and how she's tried to evolve herself presentation on law and order issues. he favored death penalties for drug dealers. in his defense, he has said i was wrong about stuff back then which frankly i'd like to see people like harris do a little more often. at the same time, right now, he's the only leading democrat who the doesn't favor legalizing marijuana he's old fashioned. that hurts in a place where the party as evolved especially on criminal justice. >> i agree with you.

biden's real message and i agree with you, you can trust me. i can beat donald trump. i'm the only candidate who can beat donald trump. the other democratic candidates want to be able to say that but they're in the single digits, not in the 20%. >> what's the point for that? >> what's the evidence? >> because he can pull the white working class voters back. >> here's why that's important because you have elizabeth warren out there talking health care, infrastructure, everything, breaking up facebook. all these issues supposedly important to democratic candidates. the number one issue on the ballot next year is who can beat trump. if you're running on that, that's buttigieg important thing. >> i've had conversations with a couple pollsters one close to the biden camp. they have been more months telling me we are in the media or the elite class so to speak, we're missing it, right? that voter care mostly about electability. what i would say as a second part, there's electability and viability which i've heard jason

johnson talk about before. electability and viability are not the same thing. electability means you present well to the electorate. viability means you can win in this cycle. is joe biden the best candidate? i'm not saying he's not. that's the test he has to -- >> he's got both those issues. >> we should not be orienting our politics around who can win this very narrow klyce you have white working class voters. i understand electorally that's what we're doing. >> i think we should. >> that's a general election. >> go ahead, beth. >> results in bad policy. >> so of course, the democratic electorate wants the person 0 who beat trump. first they need to win the primary. that's going to more challenging in this large field for everyone. so joe comes into it -- the former vice president comes into it with a lot of advantages. he is leading in all the polls. he's got the back story he needs

to talk about defend. he has no money right now. let's face it, that is a real disadvantage for him. bernie sanders has $2 million in the bank. how does joe biden catch up? he didn't have a big grassroots network of fund-raisers? eads never had to do that. he has real challenges. >> because he comes in as the leader, he will have a target on his back. this is not joe running in '80 or the '90s. this is the 2020. >> when does name recognition wear off. >> his history will be under scrutiny. you've got the internet. it's going to be a very different race for joe biden. he may be leading. you can see a pathway towards him getting down to the middle of the pack and what are they going to do about bernie sanders then? >> let me ask you, let's say joe biden gets in on wednesday. we have the iowa caucuses. february 3rd. a lot of people are saying maybe bernie wins that. let's say based on polling.

new hampshire, bernie, elizabeth warren possibly. south carolina. kamala harris is making a big play for that, right? where does joe -- >> i would throw in california the first day of mail-in ballots is the same day as iowa caucuses. kamala harris might be banking votes. i'm more interested is what is biden's impact on the rest of the field. there's 15 candidates. what that means is right now, bernie sanders is the front-runner because he comes in with the most committed support. he's got about 30% of the electorate still with him in a splintered field, you can win with 30%. so if that field does not shrink to 3 or 4 or 5, bernie sanders could walk to this thinging with 35% of the vote. >> i not want him to run for president. biden has been all over the map,

bernie has been consistent. >> leave it at that. i didn't do a very good job. >> what was your thought. >> with my etch a sketch there. visuals. you went with that? >> who needs graphics package when you've got this. >> the point of your handwritten note. >> really quick. >> joe biden does have strength in south carolina. years and years of relationships there. there would be some fight there in south carolina. >> fight for the black vote. he'll get a big fight for the black vote not only from cory booker but from kamala harris. >> appreciate it. coming up donald trump's closest confidantes defend their president rez outright ignoring mueller's report. that's next. outright ignoring mueller's report that's next. originally discovered... in jellyfish. in clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve short-term memory. prevagen. healthier brain. better life.

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this easter sunday and this passover weekend, members of the trump administration and legal team are on the offensive against the mueller report. here's what the president's personal attorneys said on cnn moments ago. >> he wasn't accepting information from foreign. >> i don't know if he was accepting information from foreign. who says the president accepted information from foreigners. you mean people on his campaign might have done it. >> the trump tower meeting is what he was referring to, the willingness to sit down with russians offering information on hillary clinton. >> what a hypocrite. any candidate in the whole world in america would go take information negative. >> from a foreign source, from a hostile foreign source?

>> who says it's even illegal? >> who says it's even illegal? >> shown up at trump tower, the first thing they should have done was to call the fbi. that entire place was teeming with federal agents. there were secret service agents. there were fbi agents. nobody ever reported any of this. you had it with papadopoulos who was told about the stolen documents from the democratic national committee. you had goldstone offering to bring in dirt on hillary clinton. and that the russian government was backing trump and nobody called the fbi. i mean, this is collusion. >> can we just wrap our head around the days we live in right now that it was rudy giuliani the president's current attorney but a former prosecutor saying who says it was even illegal. >> politics trumps everything. when you run the clip, the other clip on mary anne. >> kellyanne. >> kellyanne who says that prosecutors don't determine what's a crime or what are isn't

a crime, that's exactly what they do. they exactly say i'm going to charge you with obstruction of justice or collusion or conspiracy or what they believe their investigation turns up. it makes no sense. it shows you how the president and their people talking to 35 or 40% and do not talk to the rest of america and do not represent what's good and re, if you will, and truthful and justice in this country. it only matters politically what they say to their 40%. >> i worked with giuliani for a number of years. i was in the u.s. attorney's office. there's no way he wouldn't have approved, if you took trump out of the name in those obstruction of justice descriptions in the mueller report, if you gave him some other name in there, he would have approved every single one of those for buttigieg obstruction count. he is such a hypocrite at this point. >> did mention hypocrite twice, as well. so here's something else he said from "meet the press" moments ago. giuliani on the russia interference and how it helped

the president win in 2016. >> do you and the president accept the idea that the russian interference was designed to help president trump? >> i believe it was. i can't tell you for sure. i haven't examined all that evidence. >> does the president accept that. >> no reason to dispute that. i think he does. >> okay. iyad mit have i not read all 448 pages of the mueller report. but page 1 lays out that russia was trying to help the trump administration. >> it not only helped they accepted it, encouraged it. they took it. they were trying to find out when these reeses would come out so they could be the most effective of the stolen documents. they wanted that stuff to help their campaign. and that's what michael cohen has said and all of them have said straight across the board. >> what we're seeing on the sunday shows this morning is that the trump administration has always been excellent at playing this particular aspect of human psychology which is once you've chosen a team, any evidence in favor of your team

you hear loud and clear. and anything say is evidence vice versa. they know they don't have to make the case on legalisms. they can assert constantly whatever they want that sounds best for their side in that moment and that has worked. >> true or not. >> i had buttigieg old cnn anchor when i starred in the business who was like you don't need to know how to pronounce every location. just say it with conviction. so if you're saying ab. >> on the issue of what russia did, the fact he won't forcefully denounce what happened is shocking. you can say president trump is insecure because he feels if he admits that russia was involved that taints his victory. let's have him step forward and say this cannot happen again. here's the steps we are taking to prevent it. he's not doing that. by sort of living in that place of insecurity where he lives he's refusing to step forward and do the work to prevent it in

the future. >> it worked for him in 2016. yeah, it worked for him for 2016. >> there's one thing congress can do by bringing in witnesses and letting them tell the story through the administration's own words as to what donald trump did into kendis, can we strengthen our state elections systems too? the senate is blocking that $250 million that could strengthen our systems to prevent this in the future. >> can i get you guys to dig in on this dessert plate? it won't eat itself. >> nick akerman, thank you so much for being here. the rest of my panel is sticking around. so donald trump is really smart. just ask him. he'll tell you. why the man who says he has all the answers with the best smarts senior suddenly backtracking on his supposed smarts. >> i was a good student. i understand things. i comprehend very well. okay? better than i would almost almost anybody. then they say is donald trump

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opening up on the notre dame cathedral saying they should use water tankers to put the fire out and of course there is the special counsel, the president suggested every which way how to handle the new information unearthed by the mueller report, but now "the new york times" is reporting the president hasn't actually read the report itself. i'd like to welcome back my panel for some final thoughts. beth, is this surprising to you? >> that he didn't read the report? >> that he has not read the report. >> no, because we know his intelligence briefings are graphics and bullet points. he's not a big reader. you know, more sort of to the point that you're making. he assumes that he knows and then he'll put it out on twitter but, again, it's the saying the quiet part out loud. one might think it's smart to drop water on nuri al-maliki and you're a structural engineer, you shouldn't tweet it. >> he speaks his mind. >> they do.

it's a big question of the trust. part of his 2016 strategy was calling ted cruz lying ted as you remember and calling hillary world class liar when it turns out that he's nearing the 10,000 mark according to the washington post with his lies. >> i mean, this is, you know, i think lies. >> does his base give him a long leash? >> i absolutely agree that to point the finger and shout liar when you yourself are going to be doing some fairly strategic political lying is not the smarsest move, at the same point, i think donald trump on twitter is everybody's dad. they should dump a bucket of water on that burning church. i didn't read the report, but i have a strong opinion. that's how normal people are. while i'm not sure i would say donald trump is a fully normal person, i would say people recognize that behavior and that interaction with the news and they apparently like what they see. >> water on a degrees fire. >> that was our -- >> wonder if he knows that.

>> public service announcement. if you have a degrees fire in your easter cooking -- >> does a know it all president make him an effective leader? >> of course not. >> and just the idea, you know, he campaigned on this idea that i alone can fix it. this is a part of his brand. this is all about branding for donald trump. >> yeah. >> and anyone who kind of takes him seriously, i can't take them seriously. i'm sorry. i mean, i get that i take his job seriously as the president, but he is an individual and as a person, i have a hard time taking him seriously. >> i've been practicing law for 31 years on the defense side. >> you're a lawyer. >> lawyer, right. i've never had one client who hasn't been indicted who wouldn't read his own indictment and therefore he doesn't want to read this mrueller report, it i an indictment on his very bad acts. second, if i may real quick on the burning of notre dame, did you see that the french -- the elite french firefighters said we can have done everything we can to contain this by the way

except dumping water from above. that would kill the roof. >> it was a clap heard around the world. ten seconds, what's going to happen with the democratic phone call tomorrow? >> nancy pelosi, we understand, is going to do a phone call with the democratic caucus to talk about impeach. and mueller report next steps. she will listen to them. she will listen to the very diverse group of democrats who have different opinions. >> ultimately she'll make a decision. >> the phone lines might be burning up from a certain congresswoman in the new york area to nancy pelosi. thank you all so much. >> thank you. >> appreciate you all being here. katheryn, joel, scott, beth, thank you. up ahead, maxine waters and the democrat fight to continue where mueller's report left off. that's next on "am joy." i will see you in four hours. i will consume the rest of this until then. happy eastover. happy passover. no, probably not. hard pass. i'm driving. i can't eat this.

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