but it does bring this hour to a close for me. i have asked for more time and the bosses said no. i'll see you at 1:00 p.m. tomorrow. and 3:00 p.m. you can find me 24/7 on social media, twitter, facebook, instagram, snapchat and linked in. the better show coming up, "deadline: white house" with nicole wallace, starts right now. ali is too kind. i would have given him all the time in the world. it's 4:00 in the new york and perhaps the most precarious moments in donald trump's presidency, he doubles down on obstruction. this time it's the congressional investigations and his finances. his efforts to obstruct the mueller probe and the testimony of the official who ran the white house office in charge of security clearances that he's seeking to block. but the conduct is very familiar to anyone who's peaked at volume

two of the mueller report on obstruction. the president today telling reporters he will fight the subpoena from congress to question former white house council don mcghan who emerged as robert mueller's star witness. >> we went through the mueller chu witch hunt where you had 18 angry democrats that hate president trump, they hate him with a passion, they were contributors in many cases to hillary clinton. hate him with a passion, how they picked this panel, i don't know. now we're finished with it and i thought after two years we'd be finished with it. no, now the house goes and starts subpoenaing -- we're fighting all the subpoenaing. these aren't like impartial people. the subpoena is ridiculous. we have been -- i have been the most transparent president and administration in the history of our country by far. >> really? here's what the most transparent president in history is fighting real hard to keep under wraps.

his administration missed a second deadline to turn over his tax returns, something every other president has done since the jimmy carter administration. he's refusing to cooperate with an investigation into the white house security clearance office. that granted jared kushner clearance despite concerns raised by the cia. he's suing congress to avoid turning over his business records. and the big headline of the day, trump resisting subpoenas for white house aides to testify before congress. donald trump explained his reasoning if you can call it that to "the washington post," who quotes the president in a blockbuster piece of reporting, quote, there is no reason to go any further, especially in congress where it's very partisan. obviously very partisan trump said. the "new york times" adds this great reporting. quote, president trump's administration foreshadowed weeks if not months of trench warfare with congress on tuesday as it defied demands for

documents and testimony on multiple fronts in an effort to thwart expanding investigations mounted by house democrats. that's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends at the table joyce vance, john hileman, from the "new york times" annie carney and robert costa. i want to talk about your interview with the president, your reporting about what the white house plans to do on these multiple fronts. but i have to start with something that i just -- i just found amazing. the president tweeting on his twitter feed, i didn't call bob costa, he called me. i don't think i've said that to anyone since i was 13. take us through your night of reporting and interviewing the president. >> it's a very simple, unexciting story. no, i'm serious.

>> i believe you. >> so as -- as any reporter would do, i was working on a big profile story, still am, about a person in the president's orbit. reached out to the white house for comment for this profile story. the president decided to return my call, and grant an interview on that topic. and during the course of that interview, after i finished my questions on that, asked him as any reporter would about the news of the day, and i made sure to note the context of this conversation on twitter before i p even published the interview. so from my end of things, i have done just what any reporter would do to provide all the information to our readers and to our source about how everything went down. >> take us inside what you're actually reporting. with donald trump there's always the theatrical side of things. but the substance of your reporting is important for all these multiple fronts that the white house is on the receiving end for subpoenas and requests

for testimony on. >> what the president revealed in the conversation, and what his aides have been underscoring again and again in private conversation is that this white house wants to go to war against house democrats and refuse any sort of request, whether it's about don mcghan's testimony, the president's finances, the security clearance process at the white house. and they believe they can argue that he fully cooperated with the mueller probe in their view, of course, the president repeatedly attacked the mueller investigation throughout the course of the probe and called it a partisan witch hunt again and again. he believes because his officials testified to mueller and talked to the grand jury, he doesn't need to do anything with congress. congress and house democrats are saying, you just can't stop replying to congress. there's a constitutional right of congress to have oversight over the executive branch. this is something the white house is shrugging off, which will create an even more dramatic standoff in the weeks

to come as the white house tries to fight the house democrats building an obstruction case. >> annie carney you and your colleagues have extraordinary reporting today about what this looks like on both ends of pennsylvania avenue. i worked in a white house that was under investigation by democrats for most of the time in which i worked there. and the idea this sort of zero sum analysis that the president has to call them obstructionist and it's a win seems short sided to anyone who spent more than five minutes in washington. take us through the mechanics of some of the specific fights they're taking on. this is one white house. one white house group of senior advisers. one white house counsel's office that will be fielding document requests, email requests, aides testimony, those aides will have defense lawyers. this is a big burden to take on if you plan to fight it all.

>> it is. just to the bigger point here that the president is not wanting to comply because he calls congress a partisan organization. it is by nature a partisan organization. that's not news. that's how it works. this is how divided government works. and he's learning that the hard way. but the treasury department is making clear they're stone walling and slowing down any potential release of his tax returns. they are not -- so they're stone walling that. any more information about the security clearances and how jared kushner was granted one, they're stone walling that. not letting aids testify. the problem with the mcghan situation in particular is this question of executive privilege. mcghan has already sat for hours and hours in front of the special counsel. and the question here is how do you put the tooth paste back in the tube? how do you excerpt something you waived and let him testify

already in that setting and say now he can't testify in a different setting. that's the legal question they have to be arguing with and we'll see where that lands and if they can actually prevent these witnesses from testifying before congress. >> annie it's a good -- no, keep going. >> i was going to say, in terms of fighting with lawsuits, donald trump has been filing lawsuits -- it's kind of defined his entire career as a businessman. i think "usa today" did an amazing piece that showed he's been involved in more than 4,000 lawsuits either suing people or being sued since the beginning of his career. he uses it to slow stuff down, as a tool of intimidation. he gets to do a press conference and say he's fighting back. >> he's out ttalking about a bi one, saying how it's going to the supreme court. i wanted to play the pbs, how a

bill becomes a lawyer. but his lawyer putting out a statement that makes clear that mcghan is not enthusiastic to testify before congress, he's not reluctant. he's been subpoenaed and is interested in responding to that however the process takes him. it seems they have in him someone who, everything being relative, is an honest broker. >> that seems to be the way they're positioning him. it's not clear to me what don mcghan would personally prefer to do here. the statement from his lawyer makes it clear that he wants to follow the law and do as he's supposed to do, without a stake in the game. >> and that, seems to be the conumb drum they're going to face. when people are subpoenaed and they have hired defense attorneys on their own dime, they are not going to

necessarily fall into line behind a president who wants to sue people, things he says are nonsensical. it's not like these people paying for their own defense counsel are going to follow him down the rabbit hole. >> right and previously they didn't follow him down the rabbit hole. don mcghan probably did him a favor saving him from some of the obstruction of justice that he saved him from. there's a lot to say about the political strategy the white house is pursuing and whether provoking congress, pushing nancy pelosi into a corner to defend the institutional prerogative of congress, she is going to have nowhere to go but impeachment, which was something she was reluctant to pursue as much as four or five days ago. there's an element of high human drama when it comes to don mcghan, he's not under the control of the white house any longer. he's going to face a point where he makes a decision, this could

be tied up in the courts for some period of time. joyce is going to talk to us in a second i'm sure about whether there's any real plausible claim you can make to assert executive privilege over something that's been testified to or whether that has been waived a long time ago. but mcghan is going to have to make a call. his lawyer said he doesn't want to be cited with contempt of congress. he's going to face a citation for contempt of congress. so does he want to ride with the white house, hoping the courts will side with them, it's unlikely, or does he want to say i'll play this down the middle and where most good lawyers will tell him, of course, you don't have executive privilege anymore, you'll get slapped with a citation, the right thing to do is go testify and we'll see what don mcghan says. >> if the president were able to sort of arrive at any comfort around the fact that mcghan, as

annie's colleagues have reported, will be a nuanced witness, it's hit testimony that painted the most devastating and damming portrait of donald trump's conduct but it was also him refusing to carry out some of those requests, fire mueller, get sessions to unrecuse or fire sessions, that may get the recommendation from a charge. donald trump doesn't see any of that if he does he's incapable of overriding that knowledge with down right terroar. it's like the kato kalin if this were the o.j. trial. and i think someone like don mcghan, the president asked me to do crazy bleep, getting in his car, driving to the white house -- the theatrics of that, if donald trump seems to understand anything, he seems to understand how politically damaging that might be. >> i think that might be right.

to back up one step before we start, this is why the white house counsel represents the presidency not the president. to ensure the institution is preserved. because what this president does in many ways sets precedences for future white houses. the area of executive privilege, there's very little case law. typically there's an accommodation process between congress and the white house where congress says we need this testimony and the white house says we're not crazy about giving you everything and they try to work it out. so that won't be the process here. and with mcghan it's interesting. it's a lot like when sally yates testified and it became clear she could and would testify despite objections from the white house. there are a couple of benchmarks for whether or not there's a privilege. one is that the privilege cannot be used to hide illegal conduct or misconduct. so if that's what mcghan is going to testify about, there's no privilege. but also there's the waiver

issue, which looms large here, even if the white house could argue that talking to mueller's team didn't amount to a waiver of privilege because it was still a conversation inside of the executive branch. once the report is publicly released, i think privilege is waived. it's tough to maintain that one with a straight face at this point. >> i want to ask you not about the politics of impeachment because it's clear the white house arrived at a conclusion that benefits them, at least at some level. that would explain their blanket position on all of these requests, subpoenas and interviews and whatnot. but on donald trump who's so acutely aware of his brand, his weapon against hillary clinton was that she functioned as though she were above the law, she was hide things in her emails. is there any glimmer of doubt or any sign of life in terms of a c conscience in that white house that the picture of donald trump is someone that sees himself as

lawless and terrified of the transparency of congressional scrutiny and revealing things he wants to keep secret, his finances, taxes, and his businesses? >> there have always been presidents in american history, look at jimmy carter who comes in with the so-called georgia mafia who feel like outsiders in washington. i've only been a reporter for 10 years so i don't want to speak to the history. but you talk to people in the trump administration they say they feel like the outsiders still. they loathe democrats. there's no willingness to engage. they believe they are in the trenches, they were from day one, will be until at least january 2021. at this point they feel like the system is set up through the constitution and the way power works in this country to protect

them. even if the house democrats do move on impeachment, senate republicans controlling the majority there in the view of the white house will never pursue a trial that would actually remove the president from office. so when they see that is the scenario, they say why cooperate? and the president, with his roy cohn mentality, he's instoking that feeling inside the white house. don't testify, don't share documents. if we're going to have anything pulled out of our hands it's going to be by a federal court and not a lawmaker. >> let me play you the president in his own words about keeping all these things hidden from the voters. >> now the house goes and starting subpoenaing -- they want to know every deal i've ever done. now mueller, i assume, for $35 million, checked my taxes, checked my financials, which are great by the way. you know they're great. all you have to do is go look at

the records, they're all over the place. but they checked my financials and they checked my taxes i assume. they're great. they're great. they're all over the place. mueller saw them, ask him. your thoughts? >> this is back to -- trump keeps flipping back and forth on his reaction to mueller. is he the victim or the victor? was mueller a great american hero or is he the leader of a band of 13 angry democrats. he goes back and forth and i think in reality what he's responding to every time is the coverage, not the report itself. he claimed total exoneration and he seemed to be a happy -- in a happy place, until he saw over the weekend how the report was being covered and then his aides over the weekend had to talk him down and say it's not that bad. he's enraged by how it's covered. he keeps flipping back and forth, victor, victim. >> do you think mueller saw his

taxes? i agree with annie's assessmentment. i agree they have not read the report. it's not that long. >> it shouldn't be a mystery, he doesn't read anything. >> that's true. >> the reporting on this seems clear over time that he's not a reader. >> correct. >> we know other briefings take place, they've asked to be coloring books and pictures and pop up things, and special visual aids for him. so it doesn't surprise me he read it, it's 444 pages. that could be his lifetime of reading material. he does watch the coverage. >> correct. >> esteemed legal minds and people that have worked at doj, fbi and other places have said throughout this that they assume mueller saw the taxes and he started the investigation by looking at the taxes. everybody i asked, including joyce, said they're pretty confident that's the case. but to annie's point, i don't know what point he's trying to

make. the weird thing imbedded in that comment he checked my financials. as if he's getting his car tubed tuned up. the point of the tax returns is not that he cheated on his taxes. there's something wrong with the taxes -- although there might be. but they're val tour about the sources of income and they could indicate corruption and deals on the -- we would know about what's motivating him on the policy front if we knew where he was getting the money. the information to that mueller gave a thumbs up or down like h & r block doesn't mean anything. >> politico reports that there's potentially fresh charges of witness tampering and impeding a congressional investigation.

there's been reporting about how a question was on the table about whether they -- i know you tweeted about this today, whether they sought to obstruct the investigations out of sdny by having the attorney unrecuse, the thing we know he was desperate to have sessions do in the mueller report. do you think there's question of real exposure on this for him? >> yes and know. we know about the olc memo that says you can't charge a sitting president. mueller made it clear he took that seriously. on the other end of this, i think somebody needs to rush the graphic novel or comic book investigation to print quickly. the mueller report doesn't mention matt whitaker, the former acting attorney general, we know from public reporting that there were conversations between whitaker and the president about curtailing

investigation in the southern district of new york. i think we can expect to see the southern district protect its prerogatives vigorously. so there could be more to drop there. it's interesting how the president tries to make this point, congress isn't entitled to do any additional investigation of me, mueller has already done everything. and that's not true. mueller limited it to russia related conspiracy and obstruction related to the russia conspiracy. there is a whole universe out there that congress is obligated to engage in oversight on. it may not be sdny that looks at obstruction. ultimately that might be congress. after the break, the aversion to protecting u.s. elections to cyber attacks. the president's post mueller russia conduct is as troubling as the conduct that led to the investigation in the first place. also ahead, beto, kamala and

bernie taking the stage with our own joy reed today. we'll deep into the primary in the primary and some of the most powerful weigh in on the field of 2020 democrats. all those stories still coming up. don't go anywhere. e stories stig up don't go anywhere. ♪ like a drifter i was-- ♪ born to walk alone! keep goin' man! you got it! if you ride, you get it. ♪ here i go again geico motorcycle. 15 minutes could save you 15% or more.

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h harsher impact on our society. >> still shocking i've heard it three times since last week. it's the president's reaction to russia. one person said to me, they are validating the concern who feel the need to down play the russian operation from the beginning. and in the times today we learned for the first time former homeland security secretary, kirstjen nielsen was waived off of how to combat future attempts by russians or any other foreign power. in a meeting this year, mick mulvaney made it clear that mr. trump still equated any public discussion of russian election activity with questions about the legitimacy of his victory. according to one senior administration official mulvaney

said it wasn't a great subject and should be kept below his level. ms. nielsen eventually gave up on her effort to organize a meeting of white house cabinet to set up a strategy to protect next year's election. >> we assess foreign actors will view the 2020 u.s. elections as an opportunity to advance their interests. we expect them to refine their capabilities and add new tactics as they learn from each other's experiences and efforts. >> joining our conversation, professor eddie glad and washington post columnist, eugene robbertson. this is a stunning piece of reporting, one i read three times and checked the date on twice. how can we learn this today?

it's three news cycles since the mueller report is out and each one is instances that former acting fbi director andrew mccabe described as being ones that raised their suspicions. rudy saying there's nothing wrong with that. jared yesterday describing what other national security officials call a political 911 as russia taking out a few facebook ads. and today your paper's fantastic reporting that the former secretary of homeland security in charge of cyber security was fore bidden from raising russian efforts with the american president. >> i mean, it's -- first of all why are we hearing about it now, kirstjen nielsen is no longer in the administration, i think that's part of it. and jared kushner's comments yesterday this tells a lot why the personalties around the president are key to major moves

that he's making. jared kushner is not someone we're normally used to hearing doing a speaking for the audience of one move. and his comments were shocking i think because of the messenger, not the message. if we heard rudy giuliani tell me he agreed with jared kushner say that, i think it would have been we're used to hearing it. but to hear jared kushner is a reminder there's no one in the white house, not mick mulvaney, jared kushner, telling the president he doesn't want to hear. mick mulvaney told kirstjen nielsen to not take this conversation to the president because it's not something he likes to hear because he still equates it with undermining his own 2016 victory. and so this is where trump's owown ego is affecting policy decisions and future elections and it's concerning and how these personalities around here and these stories we work on

matter because it's these people blocking him from getting the information he doesn't want to hear. >> are there any republicans left on capitol hill who care about our national security? i'm old enough to have worked with people like john mccain who were very alarmed, who were constantly traveling to russia's neighbors to assure them that america would have their back when russia attacked them. now not only do we have people like that, we have people that don't want to protect us when russia protects us. anyone left in congress that saw russia the way john mccain did? >> if you look at your notebook, my notebook, you'll see many republicans who, when asked, will acknowledge that russia interfered in the election. they'll take a serious tone and say it needs to be addressed ahead of the 2020 election. then when you follow-up and say, will you challenge president trump's position and his handling of russian interference and election interference,

that's when they throw up their hand and say, that's maybe a step too far. they have a limited capacity. they also tell you privately, they have a little political capital to go after president trump on this important issue. so you have a republican party operating on its own institutionally with its certain believes and sharing the democratic belief on interference in many respects, but the president leading the party, having the party in his grip, he's effectively an island unto himself on this issue, though there are defenders on the right. the republican party prefers to ignore the president's position more than anything. >> there are no words to describe how galling it is that they're following -- you know, the republican party is bruce willis in the "sixth sense" they're dead they just don't know it now. if russia does anything in 2020, it's on those people in robert costa's notebook who say and do

nothing. >> we know for certain that the problems the country face are not reducible to donald trump. that there are other actors who enable him to do what he's doing. that there are other people who are complicit in the current state of affairs. what we know around this question there are two ways to account for what's going on. one is the obviously one, donald trump's ego, he's fragile. he needs to be hold he's bigger than he is. he needs to be coddled and nurtured in the ways we've been talking about the last so many ye months, years as it were p. then there's the disturbing account that donald trump is entangled with the russian interest. and the mueller report hasn't settled that. the question has something to do with his financial entanglements with russia. so the easy answer is it's his ego, that's why we can't talk about russia.

the more difficult question is, can we get a sense of where the money is so we can have a better understanding of whether or not he's beholden to interests that lead him to make these conclusions. >> i can think of a few words. >> share them. >> think for a minute how dangerous this is. how frightening this is. this is the united states. this is the biggest military and economic power in the world. this is our country and we have ap president, a chief executive, who can't be told news that he doesn't want to hear. can't be told bad news because of his fragile ego. that is astounding and that is incredibly dangerous, and it reflects, and i do repeat myself, i know, but his just gross and manifest unfitness to hold anywhere near this office. one could hope a year ago i would have hoped and kind of assumed that there were people in the administration, respected figures who were the generals

and others who were getting together and just not telling him about it, and coming up with a plan to -- to deal with whatever russia tries to do with the election in 2020? and they just weren't telling the president about it. they were doing it behind his back. >> i asked a national security official if they did that. they said it would be illegal. the national security office cannot run without the president as its commander in chief signing off on anything we would do to protect ourself. >> i wonder when history is written -- i know that's true, but i wonder if we will find episodes in the past two years, especially in the early years when substantial figures were in the administration we'll find times they did that. >> nicole, you asked a question, talking about donald trump, i think your question goes to the rest of the republican party. which i think is actually -- in this instance we have to focus

on this, right? because it is the case in 2012 when mitt romney ran against barack obama he stood up in that third debate and said russia is our greatest foe and he was laughed off the stage by democrats barack obama mocked him and republicans were enraged at this treatment because there was this consensus in the republican party about the threat russia posed in this modern age. now it's 2019 and mitt romney is in the united states senate. and romney has occasionally shown some backbone with respect to donald trump and this issue. but i ask this question, what explains, even if all the -- putting aside donald trump's dory designations, what explains the fact that mitt romney and the others are not rallying and standing up saying it's great bob mueller has proven there's no conspiracy with russia, but we still have russia who attacked our election in 2016 and in 2020 we must as republicans who believe this to the core of our bones, the fiber

of our being, we must stand up to russia and make sure it doesn't happen again in 2020, we don't care what donald trump does. this is the bedrock of our beliefs. where are those people? why are they not saying that? i believe there's a deep thing that goes to tribalism, something sick in the soul of the republican party that we don't see that on capitol hill right now. >> give you the last word. >> our government only works because people believe there's some integrity. sure we all complain and have things we don't like, but there has to be a foundational belief that the voting process is fair. it's shocking when you think about it, it's 2019 and the republicans won't stand up and say we need to make sure that russia isn't interfering in our election. hard to believe that. >> it is. annie karni joyce vance thank you for spending time with us. after the break, the 2020 candidates make their case in

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of the united states who uses her bully pulpit in a way that understands that if we are going to be strong, as a country, we must be committed to our stated values. that's part of what has given us strength on this globe. and right now we are ceding that power when we have a president of the united states that is using that bully pulpit to divide and to sow hate. we've got to end that. >> she's good. that was kamala harris appearing at the she the people forum in houston, an event designed specifically to speak to women of color. it's still happening. elizabeth warren is on the stage right now. but earlier joy reed spoke to beto o'rourke and asked him the question of the hour.

>> with so much diversity among those who are running, women, people of color, why should women of color choose you? >> so it's -- >> we'll wait. we'll wait. take your time. >> i will. you know, not something that i'm owed, not something that i expect. something that i fully hope to earn by the work that i do on the campaign trail, by showing up and listening to the people that i want to serve. >> joining our conversation, msnbc contributor, kareem, and tim miller communications director of jeb bush's 2016 campaign, and senior adviser for anti-trump superpac. let me see if i can say this and

turn it over to you. kamala harris is getting better by the day, by the appearance. she's looser, sharper, more natural. that was i think the best i seen her. and beto for the time he took, actually came up with a very compelling response. your thoughts on both of them. >> i totally agree. that's the beauty of this process, right. that's the beauty of the democratic primary or any primary is that the candidate starts to grow and feel comfortable in their own skin. they've been out there for some time, going to the different states, meeting the people and honing into their message and what they're talking about and why they're running. that's what you see with kamala harris and beto o'rourke. let me say this. this event is amazing. it's the first time we have an event run by women of color for women of color. i think what it says, nicole, it

speaks to the moment we're in today. it speaks to how diverse the democratic party is. you have two african-american, five women, a latino candidate. and i think that says a lot. also, what i watch the event, it culminates what's been happening the last three years, which is this resistance movement has been led by women of color. the elections we've seen these last three years have been led by women of color and these eight candidates coming today in front of this body of women, women of color in particular, is key and it's important. and we have to understand as well. any democratic candidate right now cannot win the domination or the general election without a strong overwhelming outcome of black voters. and that's just -- in particular black women. that's a fact we've seen that over and over and over again. >> i think this is really

important. the answer to that question that was being asked didn't involve talking about being raised by a woman of color, which we heard from my good friend cory booker or secretary castro. it involved kind of laying out policy, what is your position around child care, what's your position around education, how are you talking about health care? policies that directly impact women of color. so what we know is that in the midterms of 2018, when we wanted to see who were at the front lines, who were on the front lines, women of color. they were the activists. so we need a not a kind of pandering to ease the politics. we need policies that are consistent with one's position. when we talk about the boys, pete buttigieg, bernie, and beto. the boys will be white boys. we need to see what are the policy issues they're putting

forward that are going to impact the communities. and whether or not -- i want to emphasize this point, they're consistent with their view of the matter. how are they talking about voter suppression, thinking about issues of race as part of a broader agenda, not just when they're talking to voters of color. >> how do they stand up to what a lot of voters see as the most insidious impact of donald trump and trump-ism and that is his views on race, seeing good people on both sides of the charlottesville attack. what did you pick up with pete? >> such compelling points laid out by the guests here. i went to charleston, south carolina on easter sunday to a historically black church, pete buttigieg was not in the state because as a reporter i wanted to hear what those voters had to

say in this crucial primary state. they said they're listening closely to vice president biden as he prepares to get in. he has a history with president obama, they respect he's a seasoned hand. they want to hear more from people like beto o'rourke or pee pete buttigieg. some of the older voters don't know much about the candidates and they feel like they need to engage. they've seen a lot from senator harris, senator booker and senator warren. some of the older voters, to your point, they want to see someone who can beat president trump, speak to racial inequality, economic inequality, and think someone like biden or harris may be better to do so. >> my home state, south carolina, has become a retail politics state because it's such an early primary.

and all the candidates will go there, most have been. they will meet voters one on one. and so what i'm hearing from down-home is we still need to see more. you know, there's this question about -- there are questions about who's going to catch fire? who's going to unite this diverse democratic party coalition. who is speaking to african-american voters, voters of color in general with policies. >> i think one of the things that's changed that you see in this race that i've never seen before is not just the demographics of the democratic coalition have changed, because they clearly have. but it relates to something they said, the demographics have changed. we saw the fact for instance in 2016, there's only one reason why bernie sanders -- one pivotal reason that bernie sanders did not succeed against

hillary clinton. couldn't get black votes. when we moved to the south, hillary clinton was able to dominate non-white votes. the difference now is not just the demographics have changed. but there's an awareness now that among african-american voters and mispanic voters they know they are the key. along with female voters they now how important they are, the role they played in the midterms and they are demanded in a way that constituencies have been taken for granted, those candidates -- those constituents are saying nobody is taking us for granted right now. we are going to demand answers on policy, we are going to demand that you speak to our communities, to our interests, to our concerns in a very direct way, and if you don't do that, we are not going to be there for you. that understanding is going to change the dynamic in this race in a way we've never seen before in a democratic race. >> i think as much as things

change, there is sometimes the conventional wisdom moves faster than the horse. if you look at the polling in the democratic party, they did a poll, how do you align yourself, the number one answer was obama democrat, number two was moderate, above socialist was conservative democrat. i think this is true among black and white voters. it's true among people -- romney voters that left and voted for hillary clinton. so i think there's a lane there that has to be filled. >> i'm not saying there's a uniform move to the left. there are a lot of hispanic voters who identify themselves as moderate and conservative democrats. it's those constituencies are aware and they have issues they want to have addressed in a way with a directness they haven't asked for in the past. >> i think the labels are going to be less important than the

actual candidates and policies. >> so much to say. no one is going anywhere, except robert costa, he may have to take another call from the president. thanks for your reporting. woman: this is your wake-up call. if you have moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis, month after month, the clock is ticking on irreversible joint damage. ongoing pain and stiffness are signs of joint erosion.

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we're back. karine, i'm going to bring you back in. that's elizabeth warren on stage with joy reid doing the questioning. i want to put something out there because this always struck me. in the last presidential election, i believe it held true in the mid-terms, african-american women were the largest group of voters who rejected donald trump up and down, age didn't matter, geography didn't matter, state didn't matter. in some ways they were on to donald trump before anybody else. shouldn't we listen to them more than anybody else? >> absolutely.

nicolle, you just hit it right there on the money. we should just listen to african-american women all the time, yes. >> some of us do. >> here's the thing. african-american women are consistent voters. they come out all the time because they understand the importance of their vote. and when they vote, they're not just voting for themselves, they're voting for their families, they're voting for their communities. they understand that their vote matters. and i think that's the key thing that these candidates need to understand. but i do want to tap on to something that john said earlier, which is that they understand the difference now in the last three years is they understand that they can ask for more. they understand that they are owed something, right? it's not just being consistent voters, it's something that actually one of the co-chairs said this morning in the opening of she, the people. they want to know who will stand for us and who will fight for us, because our vote matters.

i think that says it really clearly. when you see this type of event, it sends a loud message as to where black women are today, where women of color are today. they understand their vote matters. they're going to study these candidates, they're going to study the issues. and i think that all voters, they're smart voters, right, and they're going to really decide who is the right candidate for them. >> eddie. >> i think that's absolutely right. it seems to me that we have to move -- in some ways we're coming out of the obama doldrums. there were eight years when african-americans particularly had to in some ways mute how they pursueursued their interes the public domain out of fear that president obama would get backed into a corner as being a black president. so we come out of those eight years and then there was the hillary clinton phenomenon and all of that. part of what we've seen is one of the effects of the obama presidency was a mobilization and excitement that has

evidenced itself now in a kind of political maturity. a kind of political activism, particularly among black women, that will have a definite impact on the 2020 election cycle. and so i think it's interesting to see how they're not just simply embracing kamala harris. how they're critical of her as an a.g. in california. >> on policy. >> on policy. how they're not just simply rallying to cory booker. it's not just simply about an easy -- >> not identity politics. >> i'll give you a quick last word. republicans aren't in this conversation because republicans are a travesty and an embarrassment on the question of race. >> is that a question or a comment? >> do you share my grief? it's pathetic. >> it's horrible. it's embarrassing. this is the thing about our party and what we have abandoned and what we have given up. when i was watching kamala speak there, we have completely ceded the field on speaking on values

to the world and as a pluralistic society in this country and bringing everybody together. that is something that the next president is going to have to be a leader on. >> we have to sneak in our last break. don't go anywhere, we'll be right back. k. don't go anywhere, we'll be right back until i almost lost my life. my doctors again ordered me to take aspirin, and i do. be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. listen to the doctor. take it seriously. oh! oh! oh! ♪ ozempic®! ♪ (announcer) people with type 2 diabetes are excited about the potential of once-weekly ozempic®. in a study with ozempic®, a majority of adults lowered their blood sugar and reached an a1c of less than seven and maintained it. oh! under seven? and you may lose weight. in the same one-year study, adults lost on average up to 12 pounds. oh! up to 12 pounds? a two-year study showed that ozempic® does not increase the risk of major cardiovascular events like heart attack, stroke, or death. oh! no increased risk? ♪ oh, oh, oh, ozempic®! ♪

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so let's get after it. ♪ everything is all right what would you like the power to do?® ♪ all right the conversation is going to go on and on and on but my show is over. my thanks to karine, eddie, john. mtp daily starts right now with steve kornacki in for chuck. >> if it's wednesday, defy, defy, defy. good evening, i'm steve kornacki in new york in for chuck todd. welcome to "meet the press daily." we begin with big news tonight. the president telling reporters at the white house that in the wake of the mueller report, he intends to defy every subpoena from democrats.