we ran you've time. thanks to you to watching. that does it for our hour. mtp starts right now. if it's thursday, biden is in, and that is no ma larky. ma larkie. good evening. i'm steve kornacki in tonight for chuck tot. west begin with what might' well

be the campaign slogan -- i will beat trump. he ace described as an exist inchally -- in a video announcing his white house campaign, biden shows the neo nazis marches in the summer of 2017. he 'tacks the president's responsibility about being very fine people on both sides. he conjures imaging of europe in the 1930s, and paints trumpism as a threat until like anything he's ever seen and then he says he's running. >> i believe history will look back on four year of this president and all that he embraces as an aberrant moment in time. but if we give trump eight years in the white house, he will fundamentally change this nation and who we are. i cannot stand by and watch that. our core values, or very

democracy, everything that's made america america is at stake. that's why today i'm announcing my candidacy for president of the united states. and even on day 1, it's become increasingly clear he's running as are restoration candidate, who could, in his words, make america agreed again. do you have a message? >> yes, america is coming back like we used to, ethical, straight, supporting our allies, all those good things. i got to go. the big question, of course is whether democratic voters will buy biden as the best candidate to take on the president. if they do, if that's going to be enough to propel him to the nomination. will this democratic party, which has been changing, moving to the left, more college educated, less white, a record number of women in elected positioning, will they pick a 76

years old establishment fixture living on a vision of america's recent past. will they overlike he flaws, whether perceived or -- will they overlook that? we have a lot of smart people to break down this. chris matthews, host of "hardball," a longtime -- and cliff and susan del perc yo. i thought what was unique, chris, is you didn't hear anything about tax policy, health care policy, about nitty-gritty issues. he was trying to make a big and dramatic statement of purpose with his candidacy. is that something that somebody who's 76 years old, who would not conventionally be a candidate, be considered a candidate? is that what he has to do? >> well, the president of the

united states is a leader of the world. that's a role you don't hear the other candidates talking about. he's also head of state. he personifies in country to itself and -- these are the grande roles. that's why he's in the history book or she potential, but his real strategy today i think was strategic. he wanted to warn the democrat rank and file, look, hey, take this seriously. if we lose to trump, he's got eight years. i know you want to solve your simultaneous question and get a candidate and left as possible and still beat trump, but be careful, you have to beat trump, too. you can get your flavor of the week or month, but don't risk the chance to beat trump. that's number one. >> so, mike, in temples of what comes next, we got a video today, a couple minutes long. he was at the pizza shot today,

what is next? where what's the immediate plans for this campaign? it begins today. you see. >> reporter: first things first. behind me to the right, joe biden will be here in the next couple of hours attending a high fund-raiser, bringing in some much-needed cash to fund the campaign. the first public campaign event will be across the state in pittsburgh on monday, a union crowd, joe biden talking about the second pillar of his campaign, rebuilding the middle class, leveraging that reputation, of course, of middle-class joe. iowa, new hampshire, south carolina, nevada, plus california, now must be considered itself an early voting state. of course, also a good state for him to pick up some cash. it all builds back here to philadelphia on may 18th, his first first major public rally, where he will recall the founding documents that were written here in philadelphia and talk about bridging the divides

of this country in a highly polarized time. the biden campaign -- and i got to be honest, it feels strange to be calling it that after all this years of speculation, but the biden campaign feels the higher the stakes are to the voter, the better joe biden will do touch interesting, as we tried to pepper him, in the am track station at that pizza shop, you could see the wheels turning. he wanted to engage, he wanted to get into some of the issues, but the coaching, the idea he has to pace himself and be ready to the long haul, discipline showing here on day one, not taking that bait just yet. >> chris, joe biden is very popular with democratic voters right now, hi favorability score, it's plus 56, that's best of anybody that's out there. it feels like in the last couple years, since he decided not to run in 2016, hillary ran, she

lost, he kind of looms as this what might have been possibility to a lot of democrats. maybe it if we had nominated him. 2016 might have turned out differently. now there's incoming from a dozen or move rivals the media scrutiny he didn't get. how do you think he's going to hold up. you know, i think he'll have to deal with iraq war, especially the iraq war, but he's going to have to say something that he can use and mean something. how do you run on experience if you don't have experience. in part of experience is making mistake, and if i were him, i what i learn from that issue is -- what i've learned since is, i think he has to -- i don't think apology is the right word. you votewood your brains and

heart the first time. but apology is not the right word. thins then i've understood a lot more about women and the problems they faced and never really come to grasp they didn't think like this, and i think -- i really think he las to say i've learned from that, i've learned since, but don't get into this back-end feeling. there's no way he can change, 20, 30 years ago, and if anybody wants them to apologize and apologize, why would you vote for him? a leader is somebody who growing in maturity, understands more about human life, and becomes a better person. that's his claim, that he has that experience. >> we can also put this up. if electability is the backgrown this one 42-34, see if -- the

number i can tell you -- that's my bad there. we saw it in the video how explicit they evoked trump. he didn't quite answer that just yet, but of course that is sort of central to this argument. it was charlottesville that was the breaks appoint for him.

joe biden will keep his focus on home base if joe biden can win pennsylvania, that's one of those blue wall states that crumbl crumbled. >> yeah, chris, quickly on that. which they look at hillary clinton's loss, are democratic voters say she blew it, she's the only one who could have blown it or do they view

him with unique strengths to take out? i am from pennsylvania,ivity relatives and friends up there on all sides politically. a couple things, first of all, the issue of life, the antiabortion rights people, they will have a campaign, a -- no matter what else hamsness pot tugs, that could be a real problem for democrats, this whole talk about late-term abortion. this illegal immigration i think is huge in pennsylvania. i think biden is probably not vulnerable to those attacks.

in a way hillary, besides 20 or 30 years in political life. she personified the elite democratic party, the party that had gotten a little too ivy league, a little too secular. i think a lot of think say embrace and forgetting them. a lot of celebrities showing up. you don't want to look elise in a party of the working people. what are you think of him before

or since, he went to erie and scranton and showed up. i think he's not an elitist. he looks like it today at that pizza parlor. i think -- that retailer, by the way, you know politics, that thing was a setup. he wanted to be seen as regular joe today, as well as being on the video. >> you mean he didn't randomly decide he wanted pizza with all the cameras around? >> they had the pizza with his name on it. that was set up. >> my illusions have been centered. mike, you have to go to that fund-raiser, and chris, you have a show in a couple hours. and don't miss chris's interview with eric swalwell.

it's becoming younger, more liberal, all these things. 46%, now, it did not used to be that high. you still have a majority of the party saying they're not liberal. there more room for biden to run here -- >> we would have to unpack the categories. because i think or traditional labels don't net cal further what's happening and you can -- >> on that point, here's also

the latest poll. we have seen this. black voters, a poll out this week, this right now is how the candidates stack up. biden out front -- obviously it's early there might be some overlap. >> i think once we get into the thick of it, do we look backwards or forwards? once we seed the ideological divides that define the party as it currently is, biden will lose a little luster. i think he has a difficult climb. part of it involves, i think, steve, that biden is part of that red-and-blue that you write about. he carries forward that particular iteration of clinton democrats. he's going to have to have a case to make around the crime bill, around wealth fare reform. he's going to have to make a

case around the iraq war, around anita hill. >> is there a big enough is part of the party that's invested in that big enough to veto him? >> we have to tell the right story about how trump won. he did not win wisconsin, in part because milwaukee didn't turn out. he did not win michigan in part because of what happened around detroit, flint. we have talk about depressed turnout having everything to do with how the clinton report was litigated. we'll begin to see that biden has to make a different argument. this is why he wanted to reach out to stacey abrams. this is why he launches with charlottesville. he knows that pathway has to go through this dim men of the party that's black and brown. >> just to go back to your first question about biden's path, and can he get more of them, does it

help him? yes, we know that. how? in 2018, look at the voter turnout numbers, the extremes of either party always show up in primaries. that's who shows up. they also show up in off-year elections. what we saw in this past off-year election, everyone and their mother showed up to vote, who was even remotely democrats, especially in the suburbs, which tells me those voters are more likely to turn out in a primary than four years ago. so i think there is a lane for him to have and i think it -- which is also to stay ahead in those polls. if the true -- if it comes down to who can beat trump and his biden's poll numbers are the

best out of them, he will keep gaining support. >> the other thing about biden is this, how will he wear as a candidate? there's a representation for gaffs, he says whats on his mind. he did not get a lot of votes, but he was considered the winner, quote/unquote of almost every debate and it was enough to land him on the ticket. >> but back then, he got in trouble for plagiarism. >> there have been a couple biden campaigns -- >> but '2308. >> '88 was a story of his reputation taking a big hit. '08 is a -- i'm wondering if what we saw may indicate a strength. >> it is his strength. my point is the gaffs are nothing in comparison to what we live with today. those gaffords agaffs are very .

the solid -- that's not to say it's going to be easier. let's not forget, today is the highest popularity number he'll have. >> we'll have more on this. eddie and susan are staying with us. is joe biden really the democrats' best hope of beating donald trump? the challenges he faces, plus democrats bet the farm. i'm going to talk to the guy with a fight to win back the rural voters for the party. and wee talk to him about their efforts to win back voters in to 20. ♪ so, every day, we put our latest technology and unrivaled network to work. ♪ the united states postal service makes more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. ♪ because the future only happens with people

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i can customize each line for each family member? yup. and since it comes with your internet, you can switch wireless carriers, and save hundreds of dollars a year. are you pullin' my leg? nope. you sure you're not pullin' my leg? i think it's your dog. oh it's him. good call. get the data options you need and still save hundreds of dollars... do you guys sell other dogs? now that's simple, easy, awesome. customize each line by paying for data by the gig or get unlimited. and now get $100 back when you buy a new lg. click, call, or visit a store today. welcome back. joe biden is telling himself to the democrats as the best candidate to beat donald trump. and he already has some endorsements. joining miss is steven lynch. he's already endorsed joe biden for president. there are two other members from massachusetts, his delegation

running, seth moulting, and you're with the former vice president. thank you for a few minutes. we've been talking about this backdrop of the question of electability there. you said this wee to wgbh flip in boston, you look at the field, you think biden has the best chance. as a way of setting this up. when trump won pennsylvania, michigan, wisconsin, how much of that do you think was about the issue of trade? >> a lot of it. i think as some of your other guests are mentioned, democrats back then during the hillary clinton campaign, you know, we are talking about gmos and free range chicken and trump was talking about the millions of jobs he was going to bring back to the midwest and he was going to tear up nafta.

that spoke to those communities who had lost those millions of jobs. his message was more relevant. >> how does biden not fall into that same during that period? he -- wouldn't he be vulnerable to the same attacks? >> no, joe is a known commodity. look, if anybody as going to get the independents and centrists, the moderates, you know, moderate democrats, moderate republicans, it's going to be joe biden. he's a known commodity. i also think reputationally he's more resilient, because people know joe. president trump has this habit of demonizing or creating nicknames for his opponents like he did in the republican primary, people know joe biden, so whatever story he's trying to

spin, i think it will be more difficult, because people know joe biden. >> let me ask you this, too. his message was centered on donald trump and beating him in the general election. there are some democrats out there, these voices who look at those polls, they sigh right behind him in second place, in one poll i say bernie sanders, do you think bernie sanders, if he was nom assassinated by the democratic party, do you think he's capable of winning? >> look, he's a wonderful man, but is he going to be able to carry those states that we just mentione mentioned? s is he able to beat president trump? i tent to think not. for a lot of democrats, whether you're talking about the black vote or, you know, the environmental wing, you know, is the new green deal people,

there's one unifies purpose, and that is to get rid of president trump. that is the number one issue for all democrats, when you talk to them. if you give them a choice, well, you know, you can vote your issue, if it's your lower prescription drugs, or the new green deal, immigration, whatever it is. if you ask them to trade that, but they're going to end up with another four years of donald trump, they don't buy that. >> so what about -- >> there's a sense of urgency and purpose i have never seen before in my time. >> clearly in that video he was trying to capture that broader sense, but he did not take positions on some of those issued you mentioned. we talk about this, put the numbers up, it's undenied. the peat has more-to-mover to

have left. what is biden going to say when he's asked, are you for medicare for all? are you for the green new deal? can he be for those and win a general election? to me recollection, he has already said he does not support medicare for all because of the $32 trillion cost. that will have to come out, you know, during the debates, and i'm sure it will, as well, the new green deal, which right notice it's an aspirational document, so even if it passes, it doesn't really do anything other than establish climate change as a primary issue for the democratic party and for the country. how liberal do you think the democratic party is? how much pressure will be on all these candidates from the left that will force them to move

toward the left? >> well, you know, when i came to congress, the people who i thought were liberal, the far left of the party, now i look at as sort of moderate. now we have people who are outright bringing in outright socialist ideologies so that can scare people, especially people above 50 years of age who have a stronger sense of what socialism means. so, you know, it maybe come down to a situation where if -- if that wing of the party predominates, people will have to decide, what are you afraid of more? donald trump or socialism? i'm note sure how that will break, to you honest with you. you look around the world, socialism has not done that well. it would transform of rights and privileges that we have in this country today.

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welcome back. biden and electability, we've

been talking about it. it's going to be the central message of his campaigns, the idea that i can beat donald trump. so we figure we would go to the board and look at that question. how electable is joe biden? sometimes i look at it and say this is the simplest, easiest slam dunk things that the democrats can do, and others i think this could be the biggest mistake the democrats could make. there are two wildly different ways to look at the question. one i think he hopes that democratic voters are looking at. you remember this map, he wins in the electoral college, pennsylvania, michigan, wisconsin, first republican in three decades to win any of those states. look closer, pennsylvania, that trump margin, it was just 44,000 votes in pennsylvania. it was even closer, much closer in michigan, about 11,000 votes

in michigan. in wisconsin, that margin there, you add up his margin, trump's margin, in those three states, it comes to 77,744 votes combined across three states that no republican had won in three decades of. ed biden message is joe biden, scranton, pennsylvania, you think i'm not winning back those votes? i'm the guy who can do it. hoar's eye they've been taking it to years on joe biden, do you have a favorable/unfavorable views? very, very healthy, 56%

favorable. go back in time. look at this, this was the start. he was looking at the idea of looking -- these were the numbers. democrats looked at they numbers in 2014, 2015, a lot of them said joe biden is not a strong candidate. that's a big part of the be 'tis for democrats to get behind hilla hillary, and like what happens. he stop getting some of that scrutiny, hillary clinton loses an here, he becomes the what might have been candidate and now he enters the race. did he go back down now that he's back in the arena? that's the negative way of looking on it. coming up, the democrats enew tactic. stay with us. it's all here. ten detailed acts of obstruction of justice. robert mueller's report lays out a roadmap for impeachment proceedings against this president

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i think the heartland

elected donald trump. >> the turnout among white men, among rural white voters, was so large. >> who did you vote for in 2016? >> president trump. >> you voted for trump? >> i'm a republican, and i'm basically tired of the republican party. welcome back. that was an ad from a new initiative called the one country project. their goal -- helple democratic party win back rural voters. that's a voting bloc increasingly slipping away from democrats. it's hidy heitkamp and joe donnelly are keenly aware of this. they both lost their election bids. and senator donnelly joins me. >> thanks for having me. good afternoon. >> it is the afternoon.

it's not a pleasant memory, but this was the other story. on the house side they won 40 seats, they won back control. the suburbs were on fire for them. on the senate side, in places like indiana, north dakota, rural tennessee, reps came out strong for trump and against the democratic party. what was fueling that? >> to give you an idea, i got more votes in this election than any democrat in the history of the state of -- and it wasn't enough. president trump came back three times in the last ten days and his message was, who shares your values? if you don't vote for mike bronze, you're betraying donald trump, and he talked about caravans. did the caravan work in indiana? >> absolutely, 100%. the discussion was, well, if the democrats won't respect borders, next thing you know is they'll

be in your hometown. what do democrats say? >> we do respect in strong borders. >> become to daca children does not mean you're not astrostrong borders. the interpretation from the democrats is democrats want to let everybody in. i went to all 92 counties every single year. in wisconsin you mentioned we lost by 22,000 votes. you have to be in in kenosha, in racine. in michigan you have to be in flint, muskegan, and erie, and johnsonton. and 11,000 in michigan, well, you know if we had better turnout in places lie traverse

city, we would do better. >> is it ultimately national, that you were in all these places were you just overwhelmed by when people turn on television, social media, the version of the parties they get through that? >> donald trump won by 19 points. i lost by five. we made up 14. so you can make up a good portion of this. if you make up 14 points in pennsylvania and in wisconsin and in michigan, then strong democratic candidate can be the president. so the goal is to continue to work every single day to help move the numbers. by sharing the fact that we also believe in faith and in family and in country, and that not just one party is strong on faith. that we share those goals. that not just one party is strong on family.

this election is coming through the heartland. >> you mentioned faith, you mentioned family. how much is the issue of abortion? i can count on one hand of number of pro-life democrats who are in congress, but the parties nationally seem to have sorted themselves out. is that a deal breaker in indiana? >> what people want to know is things like the hyde amendment in 1975 was put in place, no federal funds would be used for abortion. that's been respected for 40-plus years. people understand that. people have come to an agreement on that. then you see it's pushed out even further. you know what? we're going to let federal funds be used. at that point people say i can't go there, and then you talk about 11,000 votes being a

difference. those kind of things. there's been an understanding in a long time to try to keep it, as bill clinton said, safe, legal and rare, was the longtime discussion. i happen to be a pro-life democrat. when that understanding was in place, it went much better for the democratic party. as you push out that border, what's happening is you're starting to lose mainstream moderate families throughout the u.s. joe biden says he with win back some trump voters who defected from the democrats. do you agree? do you think he can win? would you be with him? >> i'm not going to endorse anybody, but i support a whole bunch of them, including joe biden. i sure do think he can beat trump. let me tell you a quick story. on election night, when the race was called, i think it was called by you.

>> we were among those who called it. >> my phone range. i went in the other room to take the call. my daughter came in right after the call and she said was that joe biden? i said, yes, it was. he called to say how bad he felt? i said, how did you know? she said, because that's who joe biden is. >> he's made a lot of friends that way, through personal outreach, through staying in touch. i've heard a lot of things like that. thank you, senator donnelly, from joining us. >> thank you very much. surprising revelations how open the trump campaign may have left itself open to russian interference. that is next. joying a spicy tac. now, his world explodes with flavor. nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts for all-day all-night protection. can you imagine 24-hours without heartburn?

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there's nothing to stop you from moving forward. welcome back. we've heard jared kushner dismiss russian hacking, saying it was a couple facebook ads. we still haven't heard the president denounce russia's actions since the mueller report. now new reporting about how intelligence officials of sounding the alarm and how the trump campaign may have led itself wide open for 2016. you wonder if there's a risk of history repeating itself.

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all right. welcome back, time for "the lid." edie and susan are here with i. we have new reporting on the trump campaign in 2016 and how it was or wasn't prepared for russia in what it did for the election. what did you learn? >> volume i is written as a prosecutor's brief. it lays out all the facts between the trump campaign and the russian operatives before and during the election. but mueller doesn't pass any judgment on the propriety of this. my intelligence forces are saying this is a counter intelligence nightmare. when you look at what happened, all the meetings, particularly after the election, what we learned is that putin dispatched oligarchs to go meet with members of the trump team to push proposals like sanctions relief and u.s. reconciliation. and the thing that's dangerous

about that, the trump team including jared kushner took these meetings in secret without reporting to the u.s. government, without the cia and counsel. and intelligence says this is a classic russian information. to manipulate naive people in government. and there's concern that it has ramifications. even just this week, jared kushner was down playing the russian interference as a couple of facebook ads. even though mueller didn't find a criminal conspiracy, the fbi continues to conduct a counter intelligence investigation to look at the damage. this is all happening in secret but congress and adam schiff and congressional democrats want to expose this to the public. they think that while there wasn't a crime here, there was something that should be condemned. a campaign flirting with a foreign adversary, taking information and then opening the door to meetings during the transition.

>> are there particular steps for 2020 that the folks looking into this are hoping will be taken, or suggesting might be taken? >> sure. the basic step would be everyone to pledge not to use information stolen by a foreign adversary in their campaign. some democrats have already done that. the trump team has been notably silent and in fact, rudolph giuliani, trump's lawyer, said the other day it was okay and appropriate to use hacked materials by the russians. we never had to have this conversation in american politics before because it didn't have to be said that you don't participate. you don't act in concert with a foreign adversary who is attacking the united states. that needs to be said. it needs to be explored and that's one of the things my sources are hoping it will happen. >> how do you think this will play out and affect the campaign? >> probably not as significant as the democrats hoped. even though this is a real national security question and it scares the heck out of me. you think about how naive these

folks were. or not. most likely. like jared kushner wanting to have back channels with russia from the russian embassy in the united states, which is beyond frightening. i do think it also requires a stronger look into what is going on within the white house as far as national security and clearance. we know are jared kushner had a problem. we know this congress is looking into that. why his security clearances were initially denied that is worth looking at. that does go to how this white house has gone. it could go to the business ongoing of jared kushner's company or even the president. >> and remember, manafort delivered particular information to a russian oligarch in terms of particular areas that they needed to work in, in terms of wisconsin and michigan and pennsylvania. we also remember in the report, florida. the actual machines.

something happened in terms of the infrastructure in florida. so part of what follows from this, is our election infrastructure secure? can it be tampered with? and what we see is that for reasons that are unknown to us, trump and his administration aren't concerned. >> it was originally reported the chief of staph said he didn't want to talk about security and securing our elections in 2020. it shouldn't rise to that level because the president doesn't like it. >> so you have that on the one hand. we still don't know the financial entanglements of donald trump and his folk with russian oligarchs. so the mueller report said wasn't conspiracy but it didn't settle that. >> overall, do you take reassurance from the report? all the talk about collusion that was not established? >> well, no.

i think there are 12 or 14 cases that are ongoing. and the other big question -- to bring up to eddie's point, the polling data that was shared. one name i can't understand that didn't make it into the mueller report is cambridge analytica. they first denied they were doing business with russians. then we found out they were. was that polling data shared with them and did they come one a strategy to help them? >> two big milestones for two nbc icons. ♪

be right back. with moderate to severe crohn's disease, i was there, just not always where i needed to be. is she alright? i hope so. so i talked to my doctor about humira. i learned humira is for people who still have symptoms of crohn's disease after trying other medications. and the majority of people on humira saw significant symptom relief and many achieved remission in as little as 4 weeks. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. be there for you, and them. ask your gastroenterologist about humira. with humira, remission is possible.

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in case you missed it, we have two big reasons to celebrate on nbc news tonight. it is a big night for our chief foreign affairs correspondent andrea mitchell. she will be honored for her lifetime of achievement in her women in journalism records. fromti on the streets of philadelphia to investigating the most important stories of our time of she is a fixture at nbc news and all of broadcast journalism. so a huge congratulations to you, andrea, on that honor, and also, it was on this day 25 years ago, that an intrepid young reporter named kelly o'donal joined nbc news. and she has logged countless hours, broken countless stories. 25 years later she remains an indispensable member of our white house team so. a hearty congratulations to you,

kelly o on, this well deserved milestone. that's all for us. we'll be back with more "meet the press" daily. "the beat" starts right now. >> i will share and echo those congratulations to our colleagues and congratulations to you for finishing an hour of live television. it is harder than it looks sometimes and congratulations to you. >> i gave you ten seconds earlier. we've gone past it now but i was going to give you a gift. >> like in congress when they say, i'm happy to reclaim back that time for kel dree, andrea and a hearty congratulations to them. >> we have some special reports for you. later tonight, i dig into the key evidence from the mueller report that gets downright bizarre. how donald trump's aides were so worried about his potentially illegal obstruction, their view, not mine, that they haxd an elaborate plan t