.90 a month. it's everything a small business owner needs. comcast business. beyond fast. that will do it for me on this hour of "weekends with alex witt." now it's time for "up with david gura." and candice is filling in. good morning to you, candice. sfloo > good morning, everyone. this is a special edition of "up with david gura." we begin with a report that rod rosenstein said, quote, he could land the plane when it came to the mueller report.

he triumphed in what he calls a coup in the russia investigation. >> they tried for a coup. didn't work out so well. >> democrats are at odds over an impeachment but a new poll shows most americans say no thanks. >> no, no, what was the question? >> and so much for unity pledge, the knives are out for joe biden amongst a field of democratic candidates for 2020, especially when it comes to his past. >> one of the biggest financial institutions in this country tries to put the squeeze on millions of hard-working family and joe biden is on the side of the credit card. >> it is saturday, april 27th, and, yes, it's official, biden is in. let the grumpy old men wisecracks begin. >> joe made the announcement on his social media platform western union. he does have hairplugs that are

older than pete buttigieg is. and i strongly disagree with those people who says joe biden doesn't have a vision. he doesn't have night vision. viks. >> and he kept going. he didn't use smoke signals a joke so that's one good thing. up with us this morning "the washington post" reporter andrew phillips, formally deputy chief of staff at hud, sir michael singleton here as well, a host of "considerate." and ashley prep and msnbc legal analyst glen kershner. welcome and thank you all. i came down because i heard there were doughnuts at the plate. the white house correspondents taking place, not white house correspondents dinner taking place and president doing the

counter rally in green bay. but this morning there are new questions about the man who was in charge of special counsel robert mueller's russia investigation. "the washington post" reporting deputy attorney general rod rosenstein walked a thin line between protecting mueller and appeasing the president. last september "the new york times" broke the bombshell story that rosenstein suggested wearing a wire to secretly record trump and talked about the 25th amendment after trump fired fbi director james comey. "the post" reports rosenstein tried to defuse the situation and assure the president he was on his team telling trump, i give the investigation credibility, and i can land the plane. nine days after the release of the redacted mueller report, president trump's victory lap continues. the president escalating his attacks on mueller and the russia investigation. the same investigation, of course, he simultaneously claimed exonerated him of any wrongdoing. trump gave his first interview since the release of the report

calling in to fox news with a long and lengthy chat with his friend sean hannity, reigniting his deep state conspiracy. >> it was like a one-sided witch-hunt as i called it. bob mueller, i turned him down to run the fbi, the next day he was appointed to be the head of this special counsel. really it's a coup e. it, it's , everything you can imagine. but the nice part is as far as trump is concerned and the trump administration, there's no collusion and there's no obstruction. >> and without offering any evidence to support that claim, he continued to repeat it yesterday to an equally friendly crowd. the national rifle association members. >> corruption at the highest level, a disgrace, spying, surveillance, trying for an overthrow, and we caught him. they tried for a coup. didn't work out so well.

and i didn't need a gun for that one, did i? >> and while he may not have needed a gun but he does get a fact check because while trump claims he's the victim and target of a hoax, the deputy attorney general rod rosenstein on multiple occasions told trump he was not a target of mueller's investigation. yesterday his fbi director chris wray put the ongoing effort by russia to interfere with our democracy in perspective. >> the fairly aggressive campaign we saw in 2016 and described in special counsel's report and has continued pretty much unabated we're very much viewed in 2018 as kind of a dress rehearsal for the big show, 2020. >> and people thought 2016 was the big show. so a lot to get into. let's start right there. glenn, i saw you nodding after we talked about what rosenstein supposedly said about landing the plane. why?

>> you know when i read that yesterday, i was reminded of one of my favorite sayings by abraham lincoln, be sure to plant your feet in the right place, then stand firm. nobody can accuse rod rosenstein of planting his feet in the right place and standing firm. this is a man who was so concerned that in a one-on-one conversation with president trump, trump could not be counted on to accurately portray what went on in that conversation, and rosenstein was so concerned about that, he's like you know what, if i'm going to talk to the president one on one, maybe i should wear a wire, which ill thi think is smart. we've all seen it play out. comey has a conversation with a president and takes copious notes and says accurately what went on and the president lies through his teeth. so rosenstein was well advised to wear a wire if he was going to talk to the president.

and now he's saying, you know, mr. president, i'm on your team. i can land the plane for you. this show, it exposes rod rosenstein for who he is. i think he's worse than just an opportunist, i think he's somebody that has no convictions and no principles. you're nodding on that. why? >> i think this white house is almost about survival. it's almost like "game of thrones" in this white house and who can outlast the others p it's amazing to watch all of these people flip around and now you find kelly conway is an ardent supporter and her husband anti-trump, calls him deranged, omarosa, so many people who put their careers on the line for the white house and i don't know why any sane person would do that, and then you see something like this. obviously the guy would want to wear a wire and to your point everyone gets fired or blamed as a scapegoat as things trump does

and says. that's the number one problem there. >> i do want to read a little bit more from "the washington post" article. it was an interesting point there where rosenstein points out in fighting for his job, told "the post" he said, the only commitment i made to the president, president trump, about the russian investigation is the same commitment i made to congress. so long as i was in charge, it would be conducted appropriately and as expeditiously as possible. still, shermichael, does this all raise red flags about his role there? >> i do wonder to something glenn said, i wonder how much of his remarks were an attempt to avoid the president taking actions that could be catastrophic? i do wonder if that was a part of his thought process when he was trying to provide some comfort to the president i could land this plane if you will. but to your point, i think the president hasn't shown loyalty to anyone that's worked for him but he does expect complete and total loyalty from those who do

work for him. that's why you saw people like michael cohen, for example. >> i know this too but i think someone like michael cohen, who took very detailed notes from years of working with donald trump said so from at least what we know now because he knew the president could not be trusted and he was not reliable a. if he had to save himself, even the mueller report showed he would throw his son under the bus, which protects himself and speaks volume to the president's character. >> but you have a unique view ever having been part of the administration, ands say what we will about him, rosenstein is a survivor. >> for now. for now. >> politics, look, i think one interesting aspect of politics, it is about self-preservation. i worked on a lot of campaigns. it's very difficult to sort of climb the ladder if you will when there are always people around you who are trying to get the edge up over you. i think for someone like rosenstein who was trying to

navigate this have complicated process while trying to stay true to his obligations and make sure the president of the united states did not just act in a way that was completely illegal by potentially firing him or firing robert mueller, i think that's a very difficult ball to juggle if you will. >> yes. real quick, i will say history will judge rod rosenstein. there is criticism on both ends. but reading this article, he had two goals in mind, get the mueller report out and don't get fired by a tweet. >> so success and success. >> right. >> what is it like getting behind this whole landing the plane? it seems like a code word that bau barr used as well. >> yes, it's the same phrase barr used. and coincidence or not, survivor is a dirty word. that connotes you're not going to compromise or stand for anything and put up your finger and see which way the wind is

blowing before you jump in and decide which horse to back. but i don't think -- a conversation about rosenstein is not complete at this moment without him standing behind barr at that press conference where barr, i'm sorry, i hate to say this about an attorney general after 30 years as a fed, lied to the american people about bob mueller finding, concluding no collusion, no collusion, no collusion. i read the report. nowhere is that the in the report. rod rosenstein with his hostage eyes stood there and co-signed and stamped everything barr says, that tells you everything you need to know about rosenstein. >> he did say his job was stand there looking with a deadpan expression and he said thursday night, he nailed it. >> mueller wouldn't stand there. >> in barr donald trump got everything he wouldn't have got with jeff sessions, an ardent defender who will twist this narrative and i will say did give them an advantage politically speaking. when he released that four-page

document. when he came out and gave that press conference before we were able to read the report, i have to tell you, a lot of people, average voters said i'm not surprised by this. and then hours later, days later, week or two later when people finally get into the nuances of this thing, most folks move on. that's a reality, it benefitted the president. >> amber, does this increase the pressure for rosenstein to be called in front of congress to testify? >> i think so but i think it really pressures trump to have to speak. he's the one who said multiple times which came out in that report, i do not recall. somehow all of the people working for him do recall what happened, which speaks volumes as to the fact he is potentially very guilty in this and has implicated multiple people. and if they can remember what happened, i'm pretty sure he can. so i would love to hear what he has to say to defend himself to the american people because this whole i didn't obstruct is not going to cut it. >> i do want you guys to weigh in oun one thing quickly here. the president listening to him at the nra rally using the term

coup, it seems to be a dangerous-type word to put out there to any audience. >> that's trump, it's baiting. >> and he said i didn't even need a gun to defense against this coup. that is a not-so-subtle message that if i did need a gun, you are my people, nra. so it's such a dangerous game. it's such a divisive game he's playing. and he's gone unchecked thus far and hopefully that will change. >> we're going to have to leave it there for right now. we're going to talk politics next. he's sitting on top of the polls, just two days since announcing the white house bid but for who you was the move for joe biden rollout and how is president trump preparing for this fight? >> i think we beat him easily. i'm a young, vibrant man. i look at joe. i don't know about him.

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i'm kendis gibson in for dav david gura. joe biden has officially jumped into the 2020 race. he's now the 17th candidate vying to unseat president trump and set to hold his first campaign event on monday in pittsburgh. biden enters the race as the clear front-runner, topping nearly every national poll out there. including this latest one from monmouth university where he leads the pack with 27%. the biden campaign raised $6.3

million in the first 24 hours. no matter what you say, that's impressive. if there's anything we learned from the past is being an early front-runner is not always a guaranteed path to victory. remember howard dean 2004? jeb bush 2016? they were leading around this time. biden's long career in politics is proven to be both an asset and liability as he begins the search for march to 2020. the showdown between him and trump has started already, bust it's not over policy, it's over age. >> i feel like a young man. i'm so young. i can't believe it. i'm the youngest person -- i am a young, vibrant man. i look at joe, i don't know about him. i don't know. >> if he looks young and vibrant compared to me, i should probably go home. >> joining us now is nbc's mike

memoli. mike, you have been with joe biden much of the last two weeks, what sort of challenges does biden have? >> much of the last decade. i have been following this guy longer than i care to admit. >> you know his level of energy. >> in fact, being half his age, there are times especially in the 2008 campaign where the younger group of reporters around him would be more tired than him. he definitely feeds off the energy of the campaign trail. you can tell this week he's really excited to get out there. it's interesting the rollout this week, there was a lot of pressure on him. his team is very nervous about this rollout. they know as the front-runner these first few weeks is critical when his argument is all about the guy i can beat donald trump, you can't show weakness in the first two weeks. so we saw him very blunt, direct-to-camera announcement video, raising the stakes, soul of the nation, and classic biden scene walking down the street with aviators on and pizza shop.

we also have the blast from the past, anita hill controversy around him won't go away and we saw him yesterday on "the view," the most practically begging him to make a more direct apology and him refusing to do it. i think they were very glad a few hours later to change the conversation to announce the big fund-raising hall and they're feeling good about him hitting the campaign in earnestness next week starting in pittsburgh and iowa. >> let's talk about fund-raising, because bernie sanders is taking a hit on joe biden for that saying his first fund-raising hall was this corporate dinner that took place of the owner of a comcast lobbyist lobbyist and bernie sanders coming after him for that. >> yes, and that's part of the problem joe biden will have as part of the establishment. in this race he's the definition of the establishment and you have another field of candidates

moving in the other direction, elizabeth warren saying i will not take corporate money. a lot of other candidates following her lead. right now it's difficult for me to untangle whether joe biden is leading in those polls and getting all of that money because of name i.d. and the fact he's a known quantity or just -- i don't know, like voters think he's the best candidate. i have a hard time thinking there's consensus already. >> pick upon that, shermichael. obviously, 27% before he even got in there, he's been in the business for 40-plus years. he's got the name i.d. whereas a lot of those other candidates do not, including mayor pete, kamala harris, many people across the country. joe biden got into the race kind of on second base. >> over $6.3 million that was raised was raised by almost 100,000 individual donors. i think the average donation was less than $50 i believe, which is significant. the notion that you shouldn't be able to raise money from fund-raisers or wealthy people is ridiculous to me.

the first quarter of this year the trump campaign raised $30 million. democrats need to get over that. this is going to be a very, very expensive election. to beat donald trump you have to be able to build the infrastructure in key places. that means you have to raise a significant amount of money to target the right people and mobilize those people. so this notion that you should prohibit yourself from raising money politically, at least in my experience, just does not make any sense. >> what's more impressive, the number of donors or amount? >> i think the number and amount. at least to me the numbers indicate there's at least the appetite for someone like joe biden and his candidacy. i think a lot of people who may sort of like some of the other individuals are at least open to the idea of a centrist individual who could beat donald trump, because the reality is, donald trump only won those key electoral states by less than 100,000 vote. you need someone with the ability to bring white working class voters back under the democratic tent. i think with the right running mate, joe biden is probably the best person to do that.

>> good you live in a white working class suburb of washington, d.c. who do you think is the candidate who will be able to answer to many of those people out there? >> kendis, i don't really see this election as all about policy. i really see it all about -- this is going to sound hyperbolic, the future vitality of the republic. we have a president and administration who really does -- they don't care about the rule of law. what we need is somebody who i don't think is necessarily a policy wonk but somebody who can be strong, be a leader and be smart and kind of highlight the fact that if we don't get back to the rule of law, if we don't get back to having some compassion and empathy for people, for human beings, whether immigrants or otherwise, i think we're in deep trouble. and i think maybe biden but it's going to take both strength and smarts, tactical smarts, to wrestle with trump. >> you're going to be traveling with biden over the next few

days. give me a sense of his agenda. i know he has a kickoff rally in pittsburgh. >> that's right. they talked about this campaign as three pillars. the first pillar we saw in the announcement video was the battle for the soul of the nation raising the stakes. pittsburgh is about starting his message about restoring the middle class. he calls that the backbone of society. then hit the early states that all builds up in a rally of in philadelphia, intentionally chosen as founding of our documents. >> a lot of people giving him heat saying the rollout has been a little rough. you think what? >> i think the question we hear, jeb bush, is this the front-runner that will immediately fade? i think in the joe biden world they wouldn't adds mitt to this but maybe more george w. bush, two-term president who ran in 1998, didn't scare aware other contenders but held steady and kept his eyes on the prize and ultimately won the presidency.

>> it is a marathon, not a race. i hope you have your running shoes. thank you for being with us. up next -- the pentagon gets set to expand its military role along the southern border and preparing to loosen rules to make it happen. as the president's son-in-law jared kushner finalizes his immigration plan. ♪ when heartburn hits, fight back fast with tums smoothies. it neutralizes stomach acid at the source. ♪tum tum tum tum smoothies. also available tums sugar-free. you get the freedom of what a 7-day return policy. this isn't some dealership test drive around the block. it's better. this is seven days to put your carvana car to the test and see if it fits your life.

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welcome back, everyone. we got word overnight the pentagon is planning to send troops to the southern border with mexico. all of this to encourage cooperation with the united states, according to the pentagon with information obtained by "the washington post," it would cost nearly $22 million for the end of fiscal year 2019. this on the talk earlier this week trump's son-in-law, jared kushner, is attempting to tackle reform. telling axios his neutral plan will be unveiled soon. by neutral, not raise the immigrants coming into the country. he wants the plan to increase

high-skilled immigrants entering the u.s. and number increased based on family ties. we're joined by nick rasmussen, msnbc national security and intelligence analyst and former director of the national counterterrorism center. thank you and welcome to all of you. >> great to be here. >> appreciate you being here. so he entered the white house with no political experience. got criminal justice reform passed. has worked on the middle east peace plan so far. is now working on immigration reform. nick, quite a to-do list and some would say unrealistic one. >> i think what i hone on is "the post" reporting you mentioned a second ago, kendis, that talked about an expanded role at the military border. this tells me a couple of things, one, this mission isn't going away any time soon for this military and that's something that has to make our friends in the defense department uncomfortable. usually when you think of troops doing a role here in the united

states, you think of filling in a role in extremes, plugging in the gap in a hurricane situation. what's happening here it seems like the homeland security department is looking for the pentagon to build long-term capability at the border and that is not something our military is comfortable with. >> mind you it's only a few hundred additional troops heading to the border but, still, it signals something to you? >> exactly. but this is not a tipping point or moment it's going to cross into ray crisa crisis with the department on this issue, but it says there are a whole number of roles and missions they're being asked to fulfill that's not the right answer to the legal perspective? i can't answer that but ears can. >> we know what they can do anyway at the border by legal statute, i think the administration has this completely wrong. we know by most studies out there, even conservative leaning

institutions, issest best way to handle the crisis is increase funding at the border control, high more judges to streamline and be more efficient. i think the president continues to hammer down on this because as he came down the escalator, this is one of his biggest campaign promises he has yet to deliver on. the base, a lot of his most ardent supporters are still asking where is that wall you continue to promise us? he will do everything he possibly can to deliver somewhat on that issue. >> i think to that point though the most important thing there is this is politically stupid to have kushner doing it for that reason. the far right is not going to approve of anything kushner likes and that's because he's been positioned as this very moderate i can make everybody happy with what i'm doing. if there is no wall and deportations are not sped up in this, far right is going to say we don't want this deal, even if that means bipartisan agreement among some moderates on the right and left. immigration has been something that has never been able to be

accomplished, at least in my recent memory, and it's always been a hot-button issue. and because this was a transform issue of trump's, this will lose support if kushner pushes this forward. we know it will be very moderate. >> what are some of the obstacles he faces trying to push this forward? >> i think cehe said it best an it's his boss. here's jared kushner trying to do to congress and strike a compromise and in the broader background of this is you have a congress that could struggle to even raise spending caps for domestic and military spending this year. that's like a basic function of congress right now. they're not sure if they're going to be able to do that in time. this is just naive on kushner's part. >> in the meantime kushner said he's an independent thinker and takes a different approach than most people. >> that's not what the white house takes though.

his father-in-law is nuts. come on. >> when trying to bring different sides together, is that what you kind of need in this sort of political climate? he's been attached to everything short of infrastructure. if he got infrastructure, then that doesn't matter. >> as soon as the work inside a couple of different white houses, the thing that's striking about this administration is really the lack of regular order policy making, working with the departments and agencies around the table in the white house situation room to develop proposals, to vet proposals, to reach consensus about what we can do, what we can resource, what we can work with the congress to accomplish. that's not how it seems to happen in this administration. this administration seems to send off individuals to come up with a plan, come off with a splashy initiative that will somehow solve the problem in one fell swoop and that's really not how government functions. >> we should mention he has had some success in criminal justice reform, middle east peace plan is still out there looking hopeful.

>> some credit to him for criminal justice reform. but the immigration thing, i think we need to find another subject matter expert. >> and justice reform, some on capitol hill which the president does not -- >> valid point. >> -- receive criticism. up next -- what was the trump administration's role in otto warmbier release? a new report says he was instrumental of warmbier's return. plus, a video scene around the world as vladimir putin steps in where the u.s. left off.

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welcome back to "up." i'm kendis gibson, in for david gurria. new information about otto warmbier, released by north korea and billed the $2 billimi for his medical care. "the washington post" is reporting trump agreed to pay this after speaking to his father rex tillerson. his father said he was never told about this but added it sounded like a ransom. president trump is dismissing the report. >> there was a big news report that money was paid, we don't pay money for hostage u.s.

the otto case was a very unusual case, but i just want to let you know, no money was paid for otto. >> and that summit with kim jong-un the president was asked about warmbier. here's the conversation with kim. >> we feel badly about it. a lot of people, big country, and in those prisons and in those camps we have a lot of people, and some really bad things happened to otto, really, really bad things. and he tells me he didn't know about it and i will take him at his word. >> let's begin this discussion right here with nick. you no he this areknow this are and politics much it very well. this is not the first time north korea requested ransom money. >> sure, and let's be clear it's a barbaric regime. the treatment of otto warmbier was horrific, resulted in his death and there's simply no way to hide or dis guise that fact.

it's also no surprise the wx regi north korean regime who try to extort money. they are poor and look for any opportunity to get a few bucks from abroad. this is a country that doesn't simply have investment flowing in. as far as the administration response, my view is that, of course, is something he would have been willing to say on the grounds in north korea if that would help you get otto out and help you bring him home at a point when we didn't know his medical condition and at a point we certainly hoped we could help him recover from his injuries. that obviously proved not to be the case but i have no problem with the administration made that commitment to the north koreans and not living up to it. >> it takes cajones to give you a bill for $2 million for somebody held hostage for so long and came back in a coma. >> that's exactly right. that is the north korean regime and as we entered into this

phase of diplomacy with the north koreans, it's worth keeping in mind at all times exactly the kind of regime we're dealing with. >> the president tweeted about all of this, many tweets, in fact, he said president donald trump is the greatest hostage negotiator that i know of in the history of the united states. many hostages in impossible circumstances have been released in the last two years. 0 no money was paid. chief negotiator officer, u.s.a. may have misspelled chief. >> and negotiator got miss spelled, but longer word. >> only gets you 20 points in scrabble but that's okay. >> spelling bee champ, i have issue with his tweeting. but the real problem here is would it be an issue had trump never said on the campaign trail multiple times, like i would never pay money or obama gave bags of cash to the iranians, he made it an issue. but the problem now and why this is so infuriating to have these reports come out -- which no one

would have faulted him for, these have been standard in these types of situations, is the fact he deems himself the master negotiator, "the art of the deal" was his book. so to have him be criticized how he got ott joe bao back is a hu problem for him. he doesn't want to be seen as paying money. if that's a tactic to get somebody back home safely, do it. and that's not what we're criticizing here. it's the fact the president made it an issue with other presidencies because he believes he would have been better at negotiating. >> let's talk about what amber said for a moment, what the president has done for kim jong-un in the meantime. a year ago they were still negotiating. the summit was off in singapore. wasn't going to happen. one year later, look at this, he's there in moscow -- not moscow, eastern russia having champagne and exchanging gifts. the ceremonial sword there with

vladimir putin. the president has really upped his pro fielt. p profile. >> exactly. you said it best. the president has made kim jong-un if wasn't already before a household name in america and across the world. the president uses his significant twitter platform, white house platform, to sort of play early on it was like this, you know, cat-and-mouse game if you will like threatening to what did he say bomb the crap out of north korea and letting kim jong-un enjoy the attention that came from that and fluffing up his feathers and meeting him. the president's critics will say he's raised vladimir putin's profile and i think he's also given kim jong-un a huge platform. >> nick, how unusual is it for a russian leader to be meeting with the leader of north korea? >> very unusual. hasn't happened in the last couple of decades. again, we can certainly use russian help in prodding the north koreans to live up to denuclearize.

if we're waiting for putin to be the actor that makes that happen, i think we will be waiting a long time. >> it isn't the day that he will only serve putin's interest, and i think they want to be on the world stage and this administration has not been surgical in their approach to how they handle north korea. to nick's point, the last time is kim jong-un's grandfather the last time there was a meeting between a north korean leader and someone from russia. i will say this, let's keep in mind that north korea has just really started doing tests, again a couple weeks ago. that doesn't benefit donald trump, the great negotiator, who said look, we're not doing anything and here we go again showing the president failed on this point. >> okay, leave it there for that. nick rasmussen, very much for being there. the rest of my panel will stick around. nine days since the mueller report's release and one big question continues to hover over the democratic fields.

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this is "up." i'm kend is gibson in

washington, d.c. a new poll shows the majority of parents oppose impeachment, even though they believe trump lied about the mueller report. and the topic is even dividing the listen. >> i've been really careful about talking about what we would do if an impeachment came before us. >> i've focused on replacing him the old fashioned way. >> we should open proceedings in the house and the house can take a vote. >> i think there has to be a thorough investigation and i think the how democrats will do it. >> this president and his administration engaged in obstruction of justice. i think congress should take the steps towards impeachment. >> impeachment could help president trump into 2020. how? following president clinton's impeachment his popularity skyrocketed. the majority of americans oppose

impeachment, but they believe that the president lied. >> there is no surprise that the president lies. that is why a lot of people who expected to get this -- >> what does this say about the american people? >> it says people know who the president is. we've had 2 1/2 years of the guy lying to us almost every day via tweets or at rallies. but politically, i think this process would take over a year. if i was to advise democrats, i would be very, very calculated how they do this. i would argue that the burden is on them to convince the american people why this should be a top issue for them. right now, this is not a top five or six issue for the average voter. i think you have to make the case to the american people why

this is important and right now it's not. >> are there legal grounds, glenn? >> oh, there are legal grounds. i don't look at this through a political spectrum. the president violated the law to acquire power by paying off playmates and porn stars and basically suppressing information that the voters had every right to know, right? so you lied and cheated to acquire power. then he lied just about everything with respect to what special counsel mueller was investigating. so now if we look at impeachment as a political calculation, if the democrats are like, well, we want to acquire power in 2020. we're not going to hold the president accountable for what he's done, then i think we're lost as a country.

you plow through and you know what? if mcgahn doesn't come to testify, you take his sworn statement to mueller and then you move on to the next witness and the next and the next. >> i think all the democrat candidates should take plays out of buttigieg's playbook. he has said let's take it to the ballot box. if this takes up to a year, we're already at election season. to that point, the only candidate i have seen so far who is making the case for a general election is joe biden. that has become the narrative since he got into the race that favorbility, polling, money is showing everything that i can go up against this guy which if that is the number one issue for democrats is to remove him from office, they need to focus their resources. >> he does have to introduce himself. adam schiff was talking about

the impeachment dilemma last night realtime. take a listen. >> at the end of the day, bill, there is only one way to deal with this problem and that is to vote his [ bleep ] out of office. >> some colorful words there. >> that gives me a clue as to where democrats in the house and the democratic caucus are deciding to go and they're deciding to go the pete buttigieg route which is let's just focus on the election. the problem with that is they wonder whether house democrats look like they let trump get away with this stuff. there will be no asterisk next to president trump's name after this mueller report. that is a extental question dealing with checks and balances and how do you get voters to think about these broader, long-term questions about our nation when they're worried

about health care costs. >> we always point out that former president clinton had success after his impeachment with the 73% approval ratings. but the republicans ran the gamut after that, they won the presidency and they won the midterms. >> let's keep in mind, democrats did not win back control of the house by winning districts like aoc. they won in districts that were flipble districts that were held by republicans. and i would argue if they are not careful, they risk losing some of those seats in 2020. i completely degree with glenn on the moral and ethical issues here. but at the end of the day, this is now about politics. can you not shift the needle earlier with the american people? i think it's possible. .but right now, that is not the reality. so democrats have to work with the reality that they're currently presented. but it is a lot about politics.

>> oh, it is, of course. >> and impeachment is political. and i think it plays to the narrative where are the polling issues? if americans are not in favor of impeachment, the democrats needs to play to the majority of americans so they will go to the ballot box with that. if the democrats lose, and i believe they have a lot to lose right now and everything in their favor, they've got to play to those suburban areas where there are blue collar voters who swung for trump in 2016 and change that to win the election. >> tune in tomorrow when david gura returns to the anchor seat. he will be joined by our all-star panelist including peter grier and that is tomorrow on "up" starting at 8:00 a.m.

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and welcome back to "up." i'm kendis gibson in washington, d.c. in today for david g you ra. we start as president trump

heads into a high stakes battle with congressional democrats. it was just over three months ago that the president stood in front of congress and issued this warning. >> if there is going to be peace and legislation, there cannot be war and investigation. it just doesn't work that way. >> that was a little bit of a warning. now trump stonewalls congress. we're fighting all the subpoenas. look, these aren't like impartial people. the democrats are trying to win 2020. they're not going to win with the people that i see and they're not going to win against me. >> well, this week, we saw a long list of white house officials and denying congressional requests. treasury secretary steven mnuchin ignored a subpoena to turn over trump's tax returns.

the white house fighting a subpoena for former white house counsel dawn mcgahn to testify before a committee and steven miller won't talk about the immigration policies. late last night, the white house appeared to reverse position saying they would make cline available, but only if his testimony is limited to policies and practices of the security clearance process. that's a restriction that democrats have previously complaint is just two narrow. politico noting that house democrats say the administration has at least 30 times refused or delayed turning over documents to 12 house committees. a half dozen officials have refused to appear before house committees. with us this hour, wanda summers

and david koren is with us, as well. and chicago sun times washington bureau chief lynn sweet is here and msnbc political analyst and republican strategist rick tyler. welcome to all of you. appreciate you guys coming because this is going to be a long time. white house correspondents, who is going to the dinners, who is going to the parties? >> i'm going. >> dinners or parties? >> dinner and parties. >> the president, these things he continually says. >> especially if you do collusion and obstruction as a drinking game. by the time you get to the afterparty, you'll be lit. >> i do not drink that much, so -- >> there you go. so water it is. so, david, this feels like we are inching closer to a constitutional crisis here. is it this obstructionist behavior confirming what we learn from the mueller report?

>> i think you're right. a president who has been accused of obstruction of justice is sort of a crisis to begin with. but as you've noted, there are several issues now all moving down the individual lanes. and it likes like one if not more will end up in the court, say congress taking steven mnuymnuy mnuchin or the trump administration to court. and then he is going to say, no. and then that is where the crisis hits. what does a court do? does a court try to impose some punishment? can it force trump to do something? these are coequal branches of government. and so i think at some point, he's going refuse to do something that he's ordered to

do and then you have a president who is breaking the law. >> don mcgahn doesn't work for trump any more. how can he order him not to testify? >> we should see multiple citations of attempt of congress and it could result in a remarkable showdown in this administration. it could change the fundamental principal of checks and balances for this white house. >> as you know, house democrats are threatening to jail those who do not answer to their subpoenas. >> you might remember that when president obama was in office, his attorney general, eric holder, was cited for contempt of congress. he's the only attorney general to have a citation on that. it eventually went to court.

amy berman jackson who is a player in some of the mueller investigations was involved. he never went to jail. but it was the obama administration's attorney general who was refusing to release documents in fast and furious. i'm saying this not to compare the specifics of it, but to do two things. to show everybody that there are multiple hands to play out, impeachments in that lane, the president instructing people not to go and at the same time, congress having the series of steps to take to try and compel them. >> so how does this play out? you've covered washington for a little bit. >> yes. it's messy, it's polarizing. congress has a capacity of governing at the same time as it does its itself.

but now we have so many fronts open at the same time and you have a president who is trying to make things hotter. as opposed to just this kind of -- eric holder was in a box, a bit isolated from the overall administration. here you have a president who is actively in a sense stage managing where people go and don't go and inflaming the situation. the other thing is, you have it in the back drop of the mueller report. fast and furious was a controversy, but not -- >> not at the level. >> so it plays out, in my experience, messy, polarizing. >> or in other words, washington. >> yes and no. and here is how you can see it play in policy. a debt ceiling vote is coming up and this now has turned into political showdowns from past years. this environment will make any negotiation on an easy deal in that harder.

>> rick, weigh in on that. >> yes, it will be megsly, but the executive and legislative branch are supposed to trade off powers. i'm enjoying seeing this clash. we don't know how it will play out. but that's the way it's -- it's working exactly as it was intended. you know a constitutional crisis because there will be tanks rolling on the capital and the white house will be burning. otherwise, this is figuring out how to trade power. impeachment talks, investigations, none of this is new. >> i think there is something new here. >> what is it? >> other presidents, they tended

to check the and recognize about idea of checks and balances. trump doesn't recognize that they're coequal branches of government. i think what he wants to do is to say he's above it all. >> the crisis comes in when trump somehow declares martial law successful and we can't go and vote him out of office. yes is in the whole role. he has the wrong country. >> and we're still about 18 months from that happening, possibly. but i want to show you this in following up on that discussion right there. i found this fox news headline curious. it asks, is trump trying to get impeached?

and take a look here. it says trump sees a political boost if democrats impeach im. any merits to that argument? >> i think it's a dangerous road to go just to think it's a political advantage. you may be able to turn it into a political advantage, but i wouldn't seek im out. >> it would give him something to run on. >> but being out with his supporters on the road is working fairley well for him. i'm not entirely convinced that running on a message of impeachment is a better message. >> he has 35% or so of the public behind him. most of the public, a majority, doesn't want to see impeachment yet. i don't think if the democrats move in that direction that that will convince the people who

aren't with him to go running behind donald trump and go to the berra cades to prevent his impeachment. there are independent voters and people in the middle who don't like the idea of a mess in washington. which is why i think the democrats should just investigate all these things down the road and then at some point come to a conclusion. it's impeachment without the name. >> yes and no. >> but it's overcited. oversight is the key thing. >> as we get closer to 2020, the house elections will be made a referendum on impeachment that the runs will say we have to win back the house in order to prevent our house -- >> shouldn't a house election be on what they've gotten done? the democrats ran on a lot of policies. >> in these swing districts where democrats won, again, they could do both. >> western pennsylvania. >> or the lauren underwoods.

but they also are going to be used against them. we know already some of the stuff being used against them. and this issue by some runs in some races and some are russ come fitted will be their position on impeachment. >> in the last 24 hours, you've had a poll, the majority of americans are not for impeachment. >> 56%. >> but joe biden, going head on into donald trump saying he's the only guy -- and collected the most money in a single 24 hours, 6.3 million -- >> he didn't say impeach, though. he said defeat, not impeach. >> so you have impeachment over here, political defeat. remove the president from office. >> one other quick point. >> really quickly. >> if trump is re-elect, if the democrats keep the house, they have an impeachment card to play

in the second term. >> that's way down the road. lynn, thank you. did you guys see this yesterday at the nra, this incident that took place? take a look. >> alarming moment at the nra convention in indianapolis. >> there was an unusual scene during the president's appearance at the nra convention. >> we just got new video which appears to show a telephone, a cell phone, being thrown at president trump. >> wow. >> maybe it wasn't major. but you kind of have to see it again. so an audience member threw a phone at the president as he was walking there on stage. if you blink, you missed it and many of us blinked. >> is that like throwing a shoe at george w. bush? >> it's sort of like the same thing. >> that person, by the way, had a stern conversation with the secret service. they are looking into it. apparently he was a fan, but it was just -- >> i thought maybe you needed a good guy with a cell phone to stop a bad guy with a cell

phone. >> oh, no. >> no? >> bada bing, bada bing. up ahead, we're now two months away from the fist democratic debate. the 2020 field may be set. but will it pay off? a good guy with a cell.

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joe biden steps into the race as a front-runner. candidates are being urged to sign a unity pledge to run positive campaigns against one another. but it may fall apart quickly. elizabeth warren was on the offensive only yesterday against biden. >> at a time when the biggest financial institution necessary this country were trying to put the squeeze on millions of hard working families, i got in that fight because they just didn't have anyone. and joe biden was on the side of the credit card companies. >> they're coming out fighting already. panel is back with me. lynn, you hear it right there. hundreds of days away from the first votes being cast. will this whole idea of unity last? >> well, what one candidate calls an attack, another one calls just making a contrast.

>> yeah. true. >> was that an attack or a contrast? >> contrast. >> that was a contrast. >> that's a good thing. >> there are like 137 candidates now and voters need to figure out how to make decisions. people want electability. and there is a tremendous fight between elizabeth warren and joe biden on that particular issue. other issues, they've agreed with. i thought that was modest and moderate and the right way to do it. and the question is going to be, as they get closer to iowa and as you get more and more desperate candidates to stand out, will they find less productive ways of distinguishing themselves and doing things that may hurt an eventual nominee? we're nowhere near that point now. but i think there will be pressure for people to, you know, take some knives out at some point. >> so many candidates. there are fewer -- rick, does

this remind you of the 2016 presidential race within the republican party and the contenders there where they went at it quite a bit? >> well, you have to. elections are won by contrast. people have to decide and they have to decide to differences. they're not up to the candidate not only put their best case toward why they can win. they have to have a rationale. that is new within the last 20 years. people who watched these networks are very sophisticated about strategy now. that was never true in the past and they want to know strategically how you're going to win and you better tell them. they said that's inside baseball, don't talk about that. people are not politically sophisticated. they're very politically sophisticated. if you wasn't do those things, that's your job. >> how are they distinguishing themselves in their crowded field? >> i think one of the big things we're seeing in focus, and i'll

take one candidate as an example, i covered bernie sanders and his campaign and the thing they told me they're focussing on in this new phase of the race is they are focussing on making the argument to voters, on he is not just a candidate, he is the best candidate to do that. that is why you see these slew of parties across the country and you saw him do a five-state tour through the midwest to those states hillary clinton did not win. that's why you see his camp receiving fund-raising solicitations to donors with the subject of joe biden who is going to be his biggest challenger in this case saying joe biden is out here now, but there's only one bernie sanders. those white working class voters, they are making a argument that they are better

positioned than biden to bring those folks back. >> 6.3 million is a lot of mope. >> they don't want to be beaten, though they have the early number out of the gate. they've been anticipating biden could get in for a while. >> in the fund-raising note that they sent out, when he announced, they talked about corporate establishment fund-raising because he was going off to a fund-raiser after announcing full lobbyists and a lot of rich folks. so that is one contrast there. you see, the doing, they started in 2016 calling hillary clinton the candidate of the establishment or the corrupt establishment and they're certainly moving to try to make that the dichotomy here. bernie, the revolutionary progressive versus joe biden, the establishment candidate who

doesn't really bring about change. >> but that is going to be the choice. and i think the establishment candidate in this election cycle is actually best positioned to make the case that can beat donald trump. the procedure progressive you are, i think it's going to be harder to attract people in the middle, attract regions who are upset with -- >> but republicans could say they had money from so many donors so they can get the corporate money and get many of the regular voters, too. >> and i remember to remind people, when we say corporate money, we're not talking about donations from corporations. you're talking about donations from people who work for corporations or who organized fund-raisers with their networks of people. >> or super pac. >> super pacs as a whole will operate independently. >> true. >> they don't make directs. >> rick, i want to make it clear

for the people. 6.3 -- >> but super pacs, though, where the candidate says yes, it's okay to give to that pac. >> but it's not part of the totals that we see coming out now. >> so what are dividing these candidates most at this point in the race? >> what is dividing them is as thick as a knife compared to the dinnerses they have with president trump. if you care about health insurance, hillary clinton and barack obama debated over whether or not there should be a mandate. and a penalty if you don't pay it. obama was against it. clinton was for it. it turned out obama went for the mandate, anyway. what's important so remember is if you did not have a democratic president who cared about health insurance, you wouldn't have had a change. within the democratic tent, there are differences and i

believe as the campaign evolves, trump will be there because if you're for the green new deal, you woerchbt get whit the republican president. you have a better chance of being close to it with any of the democrats. >> this is the big fight within the democratic party. those who want a candidate who push for a new deal versus those who say you care about climate change or you don't care. >> the democratic candidates have realistic ideas and unrealistic ideas and who is going to pay for it or not. >> when we come back, how the russian media dissects the

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. find anything, we will -- >> the best -- >> see you -- >> the russian knows full well that it didn't interfere in any elections in the u.s. for the groups that are mounting an argument on the legitimacy of an elected president are trying to cancel the vote. >> the russian president putin echoing president trump there and dismissing the mueller report and denying russia's election meddling. mueller's report was blasted this week on russian state owned television and the attack sounded like one we've heard right there from 1600 pennsylvania. >> robert mueller's report is a best seller. perhaps the 448 pages will put to rest the poisoning of the trump presidency for nearly two years now by u.s. media, an attempt to force the president out of the office by

impeachment. it is no surprise mueller claims russ russia meddled in the election from the start. why would you admit that the entire election process has been consumed by a hoax. it details the hysterical coverage of the mueller probe by the american press. the examples are in the thousands. stranger, mueller punted when it comes to trump. he says while the report does not conclude the president committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him. so trump is not accused, but he is guilty. a strange decision by a prosecutor. meanwhile, democrats on capitol hill remain shy when it comes to impeachment. having been burned on claims of collusion, they fear they would go down in flames if they tried to impeach the president. >> thanks to our russian translator there. there you have it, russia's take on mueller's investigation.

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the use of social media, fake news, propaganda, false personas, etcetera, to spin us up, pit us against each other, that is not just an election cycle threat, it's pretty much a 365 days a year threat and that has absolutely continued. >> welcome back to "up." i'm kendis gibson in for david

gura. that was christopher wray issuing a jarring statement. he says russia works year-round to undermine american democracy. it also tells the role that the trump administration played in that. new reporting by nbc news states, while finding no criminal conspiracy, the report shows trump associates met with russians after the intelligence community said in 2016 russia was interfering in the presidential election. and even after the obama administration announced a set of post election sanctions to punish russia for that behavior. joining us now, paul butler, happy to have you joining us, paul, especially with this. many wonder whether the trump campaign's behavior damaged national security in any way. >> yeah. this found that russia interfered with our elections in three ways.

they hacked emails, they might wanted social media and they went after trump campaign officials and then during the transition, trump's people who might appoint to office and what the mueller report finds is that there wasn't enough evidence to bring a criminal conspiracy case, but that the trump campaign benefited from material that was stolen by the russians, the fbi is continuing to investigation. we still don't know how much damage the russians did to our democracy and to our national security. >> there are r there are a couple of interesting headlines. you heard from christopher wray and hearing from homeland security saying she was trying to do something to stop russian hacking of the election. quite a few alarm bells that went off this week. >> navrd to what paul just said, the report makes clear that the trump campaign people were meeting with russians even after it became publicly reported that russia was attacking the united states. and so you've got to look at

that as possible encouragement to the russians and while the attack was under way, people may have lost sight of this, donald trump and his lieutenants were out there publicly saying there was no attack. so they were echoing putin's disinformation that helped the attack. so this whole issue of collusion in some ways has been a phony issue. they aided and abetted the attack this week. you saw putin saying, we didn't do anything. and you see jared kushner saying, there were a couple of facebook adds and you see what nielsen said to other people, that when she tried to talk to trump about the attack orb the possibility of future attacks, she was told shut up, he doesn't want to hear about this. this all adds up to betrayal on the trump campaign's party that leaves us open to another attack. >> what was one of the most

shocking parts about the mueller report to you? >> for example, jared kushner, the president's adviser and son-in-law try toes establish a back channel of communications. it's verified in the mueller report. with the russians. so what he's trying to do during the transition is to have secret talks with russians that the state department and the cia don't know about. what the mueller report secretly implies is the trump campaign was amateurs that got played by the russians. >> and with all of that said, the administration or trump has yet to responds to say anything about the russian interference after the report. >> so if the report had come out

and it was part of newspaper stories, the impact would have been more. i agree, you can't let this be normalized in any way. another big take away from the report was the country involve was always russia. we have a lot of countries in the world. it was never any other country. whatever is the issue, hacking, meeting people, back channel contacts, it was always with a russian. that is an enormous take away that i think will, in time, perhaps permeate more as the election goes on because that is something that is indisputable and it's not -- it's not either/or, maybe. what do you think? it is only one country in the report. >> and christopher wray right there saying that one country is upping its game for 2020. the do you get a sense that the

u.s. is preparing at all for this? >> i think democrats are. they are keenly aware of the role of meddling that russia did in the 2016 election. and you hear them talk about the fact that we need to be vigilant to make sure this doesn't happen again. one of the things i'm most curious about is what kind of internal preparations they're making to safeguard information to make sure these don't happen and how they can get this into the public consciousness so that the american public is talking about this. i don't get the sense that voters are necessarily as keyed into this yet. i think that's going to come. >> one quick thing, this had come out in the course of reporting, they confirmed the russians tried to hack into multiple state systems. these states know about this and some of them have taken measures. so that will happen and is happening independent of the political campaigning. >> but without clear guidance from the top, without clear guidance from the president, we saw this with kristin nielsen's

statement, a lot of things don't happen. and if he's out there saying, there was no attack or jared occur nesh is saying it's not a big deal, that is also another invitation to moscow or anybody else, we don't mind what you've done and if you are thinking about doing it again, that's up to you. >> until the meantime, there is still an ongoing counterintelligence mission by the fbi to investigate russia's attempt to influence trump and his team. do you think it will uncover anything? what do you think it will uncover and what will it be different than anything that mueller uncovered in his investigation? >> so now we know that mueller viewed his program as extremely limited. he had to decide whether people committed criminal offenses. and that's different than a national security investigation. so the fbi remains the world's best law enforcement agency. if it's on the case, i think we should rest assured.

and when we say dournt intelligence, that almost doesn't make us appreciate the stakes. when we think about cyber security, cyber attacks, hacking, that is war. so this sivent just about criminal cases or about some, you know, looking at people's email. this is about war. this is about attacks on the united states that even if the trump campaign didn't aid and abet these attacks, they benefited from them. >> and it doesn't seem ae though we're finding those attacks. >> and the counterintelligence angle is an investigation of whether russia was able to trump and his circle, and we saw it in the case of the agent sentenced to 18 months in the past week that in the court filings from the justice department, they all said what she was doing was part

of a broader scheme on the part of russia to influence circles. >> it looks like it will be a split screen tonight. for the third straight year, members of the press, politicians dining on one side, the president hold ago competing rally on the other. up ahead, why that may be the only familiar part of the evening as was gear up for the white house correspondent's dinner. an. with my annuity, i know there is a guarantee. it's for my family, its for my self, its for my future. annuities can provide protected income for life. learn more at retire your risk dot org. ♪

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i actually really like sarah. i think she's reresourceful. like she burns facts and then she uses that ash to create a perfect smokey eye. like maybe she's born with it. maybe it's lies. it's probably lies. >> tonight's white house correspondent dinner is trading jokes like that for a history lesson. but a comedian isn't the only thing that will be missing from tonight's galla. the president will be skipping the dinner for a third consecutive year opting snet to counter the rally in green pay, wisconsin. but this year, he's ordering

officials in his administration to boycott tonight's annual dinner. trump hasn't attended a white house correspondent dinner as president, but this time he is upping the ante with this boycott. and only a few days before the dinner. >> maybe the president is trying to spare his aids the indignity of trying to get into the all the after parties. it's clear the president doesn't like this event. he wants to draw a sharp distinction with the press corps that covers him. and lynn, normally i get an email from lynn around this time of year asking for an after party invite. but lynn, you're good this time, you're safe. >> lynn is going to all of the after parties. she's going to many of the

parties. and even the after parties are tough to get into. but i'm sure many people from the white house and the white house were expecting to go to this event and to get this notice from the so this year, it was more formal. last year, officials were waiting, waiting for clearance from the president on whether or not they could go with a few exceptions namely, people in uniform. one thing i'll be looking at is whether or not any one of the foreign services felt that they could go after the policity instructions from the president. in the past, you had a lot of military members there as a way to bring in nonpartisanship

there. >> the guest speaker is the author of the buyograpiography hamilton and grant. not a lot of jokes in there. >> but hamilton did make a good musical. >> what do we expect? >> i expect a great lesson. i don't know what it will be. i think he may address the trump presidency. >> i think he's going to talk to us about the 1850s. it was a very divisive time in america. we didn't get it right. we ended up killing hundreds of thousands of fellow americans. >> making similarities? >> i think so. when i read the book "grant,"

that is what came me. maybe trump has done a good thing ever day denigrating media and putting a target on our back to enable people to come and supe with us as if something is wrong might not be the right attitude. i think part of the war on the media, maybe they don't get a free glass of champaign. >> this is not the first time the white house correspondent event has happened. you were there. >> i was there. >> they went the complete opposite the next year. >> if you want to grow seedless

wat watermelons, what the hell do you plant? here is something else i don't understand. how do dear know to cross at those little yellow signs. >> to his defense, those are valid questions. but in the past, they've gone back and forth about this whether or not to have entertainers. >> i'm grateful the association is making the dinner less glamorous and more nerdy because for the first time, i'm invited. don't sleep donald trump's skills. he is crazy on twitter and has attacked the media. there will be split screens. there will be a free tv

infomercial for the trump campaign. >> i think, to your point, a very calculated move where he gets to go out and talk about how the press is the enemy of the people, there is fake news and everything we said up to the mueller report is wrong and stick it to us by not sitting down and dining with us. >> in all honesty, based on the michelle wolf jokes last year, it wasn't so cozy. >> i view this as a business event. you see sources there. you get a lot of work done. some of your guesses might be the association. it is fun for me to see people i normally wouldn't see because i'm free then to see my god,

there is the star of glee. i back that up because one year, the cast of glee was there. we know a lot of the political figures. business can be done at these things and gets done. we should know it is a scholarship. it raises money. the idea of you taking a selfie with the cast of glee blows my mind. >> i don't do selfies. >> we'll have live coverage tonight here on an msnbc special report defining america at 9:00 p.m. eastern only on msnbc. thanks for everybody for joining us. appreciate it. enjoy your evening. rs.

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going over the function to provide oversight of the president. when asked for information, richard nixon chose not to comply. the congress said you are taking impeachment away from us. the day nixon failed to answer that is the day he became the judge and jury. >> back in 1998, then lindsay graham. and now it is critics when it comes to the exact same behavior be president trump, republican. the white house said it will gladly refuse to congress and