subpoenas of congress. going over the function to provide oversight of the president. when asked for information, richard nixon chose not to comply. the congress said you are taking impeachment away from us. the day nixon failed to answer that is the day he became the judge and jury. >> back in 1998, then lindsay graham. and now it is critics when it comes to the exact same behavior be president trump, republican. the white house said it will gladly refuse to congress and

the legal subpoena power. >> we are fighting all the subpoenas. these aren't impartial people. the democrats are trying to win 2020. >> president trump's blanket defy clues fighting a subpoena, former white house counsel of done mcgahn. refusing to allow stephen miller to testify on immigration. blocking a testimony on the census. suing the subpoena about his accounting firm and refusing to release his tax returns to congress despite the law requiring the irs to do so upon the request of the house ways and means chair. there could be consequences to openly defying congress. >> we are going to resist. if a subpoena is issued and you are told you must testify. we will back that up and use any and all power in our command to make sure that is backed up.

whether contempt or going to court, whether fines or possibility incarceration, we will go to the max to enforce the constitutional role of the legislative branch of government. >> joining us now msnbc analyst, author of "how to catch a russian spy," and author of "the plot to destroy a democracy." maya, you now have, i'll put back on the list all the ways donald trump is in open defiance of the article one power. telling a white house official iks do not comply with a subpoena. filing a lawsuit over house demand for financial records.

declining house request for tax returns, plans to fight house subpoena for don mcdan and saying stephen miller will not testify. we know bloomberg is reporting that democrats consider finding some of these officials who support subpoenas. according to a person who attended the meeting, they even mentioned jailing those as a consequence but he suggest a plan may be unrealistic. can the congress actually issue arrest warrants for people who defy their lawful subpoenas? >> no. this is where the conversation where what the consequences are and focus on the best interest of the american people and m

mandate. it is about the constitutional powers of congress to ensure oversight of the executive branch. that is called balance of powers. what congress should do. they can go to court to tell a court to supress a subpoena. the problem is, it can take a very long time. if you remember with eric holder on the fast and furious controversy around border patrol. they held the republican congress held eric holder in contempt as an attorney general for not appearing to testify. they were withholding some. what happened was, they went to the u.s. attorney and said we want you to insure ttitute exec.

you go to the criminal part of the process that is not within the power of congress. what congress can do is fight in court and get a court order that says, yes, you must come. it took three and a half years to go through the process. that is one of the concerns is how fast will it happen? >> and also, what kind of courts and what kind of department of justice you are dealing with. eli, you've already got a guy named karl klein, the house has moved to hold former white house official for failing to appear. klein was in charge of the security process. this is about the security clearances for jared kushner that was overruled for the white

house. the problem a lot of people have is the justice department an advocate for the president. is that where this winds up or in courts that trump has seated on the bench? is. >> there has to be consequences. it is important for people to understand that donald trump and his administration have no sount legal argument here. they are not fighting the subpoenas, they are ignoring the subpoenas. they are basically saying, mr. subpoena, wrong number. that's his argument. he's not making a legal argument, if he was asserting executive privilege, which he hasn't done, we could go to court and say, hey he's asserting a stupid argument. he's not even making the

argument. he's just ignoring people. that's why there must be consequences. if he can get away with this, everybody can get away with it. the point of a rule of law, if it does not apply to everybody, then it doesn't apply to anybody. i agree with maya the justice department is not where it needs to go. trump may be able to run out the clock and i believe congress has inherent authority to enforce its own laws. this is a violations of its own law. unfortunately the person who maybe has that authority is the sergent of arms. he's the mr. speaker, president. i don't know if he can fight. if he can't fight. if he can't beat up mnuchin, that's kind of where we are. we are at a point where we need to start asking who are the

capitol police loyal to? >> i'll go to maya one more time here. that is the challenge. you have the justice department saying john gore is not going to show up. i think he already missed one appearance. top officials in the civil rights division won't testify. he won't show up unless a minder can go with him. does he have a right to do that? >> you know -- look. i just want to say up front that what elie is absolutely right on, the issue here is whether our constitutional system of government works or doesn't work. the constitution is the highest law of the land. i don't think anybody ever anticipated an administration

that just decided it was going to cooperate completely outside the bounds of the law. the law concludes the constitution and balance of powers. you are posed with questions we never really expected to have to answer. even in watergate, the fights between the republican congress and obama. almost always with a few major exceptions. they negotiate and work it out. because there is a balance of power. you have essentially the discussion about whether or not the president of the united states can ignore the check and

balance set over that office. >> the whole point of what the russians did was to sow distrust in the system and destabilize a country that they really despise. so how far down the road of success would russia consider itself to be if you now have an american president in open defiance of congress. in open defiance in the case of the irs turning over tax returns with the law and getting away with it. >> there is clearly a constitutional crisis here. another part is that there is a nati national security element to this. the conversation is what does

russia do and what was successful? by not participating with the process, we will not be able to answer that question. until we answer that question, we will not be able to. that is very much their goal. unless we have a president, an administration that at the very basic element acknowledged that, which he still refuses to do. i don't know how we solve that. there is only one congressman today that proposed something. he has the duty to report act. it says if you are approached by a foreign intelligence service, you are running for office, you have a duty to report that. amazing we even need a law like that. from a national security view,

until we understand what happens and have open discussions that russia retains the intend to harm us, we are not fixing anything. if we weren't safe in 2016, we are not safe today after the constant refusal that russia is out to harm us. >> that brings me to our friend malcolm nance. we are almost at our three-year anniversary. three years ago, we started this conversation. now that we have the redacted mueller report which may also be known as the plot to destroy democracy 2.0 because it starts out a lot like your book. i wonder what it means that we still don't know whether or not there is an ongoing national --

ongoing counter intelligence investigation of this president. and then you have this president who is now in just open flagrant defiance of congress. what does that mean, when the rest of the world is looking at the united states right now, when russia is looking at us, what are they seeing? >> first off, you know, people want to know where i've been for the last couple of weeks. i started reading the mueller report, i read it twice and when i woke up, it was one hour before i had to come on the show this morning. there is a lot to digest in that report. there are two components to this. there was the attack on the united states by the russians. they flooded the zone with agents, assets, resources and dirty tricks to influence the election and get trump elected. the other part is how donald trump responded to that. let's take apart the first part.

the united states was attacked three years on this channel. that has been verified. every word we have said, spoken discussed. what people called conspiracy theories, actually occurred. the problem is, the people who have been elected in this government have flat out tied any belief that this occurred, that russia did nothing to the point that russia is benefitting and being rewarded by this administration. until we confront that issue whether that is done through congress, through the people power, then this nation will always be vulnerable. point number two, no one has investigated, was he compromised.

they looked into whether he colluded, whether he owes money to russia or has some personal fuel ty to vladimir putin, that has never been answered. until all of this is addressed, this nation is a national security nightmare. we know the information that 35 people in the white house weren't even cleared are working there. president of the united states, best friend is a former kgb. >> we need to continue this conversation, so we'll hold everybody until the other side of the break. when we come back, i want to ask how can we get answers to that if we don't have a justice department willing to participate and if it doesn't seem congress can enforce its subpoenas. we'll continue this conversation next. the latest innovation from xfinity

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i fight ever subpoena they issue for him, for a witness. >> why? >> because they are illegitimate. everybody knows they are prejudice and biased. they don't like the judge who decides you are going to die and there goes the trial. >> the president appeared in his first tv interview.

pushing an unfounded accusation about the investigation. >> i really say now we have to get down because this was a coup, this was an attempted overthrow. these are sick people. sick, sick people. let's see what happens with mccabe and those in on the act. it is inconceivable when it goes to clapper, brennan, comey, these people and others higher up. >> here is a response from one of the men mentioned in the rant, cia former director. >> the claimerings that there was an effort to keep him from being elected or unseat him. back to my panel.

i'm going to play you a little more of what donald trump said in his ram bellings about what he's calling for a coup. >> they tried for a coup, didn't work out so well. [ applause ] and i didn't need a gun for that one, did i? corruption at the highest level, a disgrace, spying, surveillance, trying for an overthrow. and we caught them. we caught them. >> does that sound like the way american presidents talk? it sounds a bit like the way foreign autocrats found. >> john brennan hit it on the head when he said socio pathic

ramablings. this man has utter contempt for the constitution of the united states. he just does not believe what we fought for here in philadelphia. he's talking, to be honest, if i can quote the immortal cozmo, cookie talk. what is he talking about? there was no coup. the laws of the united states investigated people who may have been involved with a foreign power. and it was determined in very narrow terms that they were not conspireing. they could have easily been caught in a conspiracy with a foreign power. this is when i put my intelligence hat on and begin making projections. he is trying to stoke a level of fear that he will utterly walk away from the law and

constitution. i'm afraid that's what we are seeing. >> to that very point, the specific things he's saying. talking about spying and surveillance, trying for an overthrow. it sounds like the way autocrats talk but then he specifically names brennan and comey and clapper and the former deputy director of the fbi. it sounds like he is setting up investigations of the people he believes are his enemies and a demand those people be investigated. we had a report that he wanted to make good of the lock her up chants and have hillary clinton investigated. this sounds like the president

for life prosecutes you. >> all he has to do, anyone else he mentioned for himself and russia. he's describing what the russians attempted to do in 2016 and in the administration today. it is absurd. this is a political stunt. it's meant to throw shade. of course, again, it comes down to this basic question. are we going to at some point acknowledge the national security threat. he clearly isn't. when there is a clear and present threat. and you have a president who refuses to do anything about it i don't know how to make it anymore clear. we law enforcement officers saying russia is a threat.

we have a president instead of that is trying to bring charges against his political opponents. congress has to act on this. it is becoming unconscionable that people are sitting back on this. >> the question is under the constitution, who can reign this president in? who can stop him from getting his justice department who is now under control of one william barr who is his man, his guy, who would open the investigation against the people doing their duty trying to investigate on an attack of our country in 2016 that he is openly saying he wants these people investigated.

what can they do about it? what can they do about it? there has already been a missed deadline twice for the tax returns. they are simply defining them at this point. what will the democrats do? >> first, i want to pick up on the previous point. i've got family from haiti. if there is a coup, he's gonna know about it. he won't be wondering. b, there is only one word that describes what needs to happen. that word is impeachment. since we have a constitution and we are a nation of laws, the only thing for congress to do now is impeach him. if they are too scared, they can start with steve mnuchin who is clearly in violations that requires him to turnover tax returns as part of his job. they can start impeaching

mnuchin and skill their way up to trump. he is now forcing the democrat's hands. if he is going to argue that congress does not have authority of oversight power. clearly they have the power under impeachment power. that is the only way to hold this man account able and democrats need to start doing it. >> maya, in the redacted mueller report, he writes, the president called mcgahn and directed had imto have the special counsel removed. that is the equivalent to the order to fire in the nixon case and he was impeached over this. he is now directly contradicting

what the mueller report says. there seems only one way to adjudicate this and that is to hold hearings. andr andrew johnson defied the act and for that, he was impeached. for defying congress and violating a duly settled law. donald trump has done things nixon has done, defied subpoenas. he's done things andrew johnson did. he's done more than bill clinton did. those other three men were dealt with. how do the democrats say that donald trump having done one of the things andrew johnson did, nixon and more than bill clinton is not subjectable and is not worth it to impeach him? >> what can i say to that, joy?

i don't think there is any question if we are going to hold the constitutional order of our system of government, our system of governance, our congress has no choice but to use ever leaver available to do its jobs that requires two things. it has to aggressively challenge in court the refusal to comply with subpoenas. the reason this is important is because we have a trump that says to the nation, we can and must ignore the law. i want to go back to something you said earlier, one of the things part of our order is an independent judiciary. donald trump has appointed a lot of people and ignored the

process of ensuring good judges by ignoring the american bar association rule of good judges. my hope is we talk about u.s. v nixon. the question was whether he could withhold the watergate tapes over three months. i think we have a sufficientien crisis and we might see decisions very quickly. that will be an important step for our country and constitution and for congress to demonstrate its authority. back to your point, if this is not a situation for impeachment proceedings, what is. what is? >> what future president would ever be subjected to it at this point? >> this is about principal, not

p politics. >> to all of you, thank you very much. we appreciate all of you. and we'll be back for the next hour. up next, my interview with presidential candidate elizabeth warren. shaving has been difficult for me. i have very sensitive skin, and i get ingrowing hairs. oh i love it. it's a great razor. it has that 'fence' in the middle. it gives a nice smooth shave. next on the agenda. priceline will partner with even more vegas hotels to turn their available rooms into amazing deals. ladies' weekend delegates, how do you vote? (wild cheering) just going to count that as a yes. the nightclub djs? (music plays) sample: yes... y-y-y-yes...

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former vice president joe biden wasn't the only one making headlines. at she the people forum, i sat down with eight of the presidential hopefuls. coming up next, ie'll share my interview with elizabeth warren who had some tough words for trump. >> we are not a dictatorship. we are a constitutional democracy. that means no one is above the law, that includes the president of the united states. free wi-fi... ...and the price match guarantee. so with hilton there is no catch. yeah the only catch is i'm never leaving. no i'm serious, i live here now. book at hilton.com

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>> here is how i see this, i'll tell you how i see it, we got a room full of people here who weren't given anything. we got a room full of people here who had to fight for what they believe in. [ applause ] we have a room full of people here who had to reach down deep no matter how hard it was, no

matter how scarey it looked. they found what they needed to find, they brought it up and took care of the people they love. >> senator elizabeth warren was one of the democratic that addressed the women. i got to speak with senator warren one-on-one. take a look. >> there is so many people running. distinguishing each candidate is difficult. do you think voters vote on policy or personality? >> look, for me, this is not so much about the vote. it is about what is right to fight for. right now, tens of millions of people are getting crushed by

student loan debt. the only thing they tried do is what america told them to do, go get more education after high school. technical, two-year, four year. they did it. the federal government said you are on your own. what they did was load them up on debt. i have a proposal now so that 43 million americans. 95% of those with student load debt could see their student load debt canceled. that would change lives. lots of lives. here is the thing, i've already got it paid for. this isn't fairy dust. this is real stuff. i have proposed an ultramillionaire's tax that is two cents on everything above $50 million. two cents and two cents on every

dollar after that. that would give us enough money to provide universal child care, universal pre-k, universal college and do debt cancellation for 95% of the people with student loan debt and by the way raise the way for all child care and preschool teachers to the professional level they are entitled to and still have nearly a trillion left over. that could change our whole country and open up an opportunity for millions of people. >> i feel like we are having the conversation in the country about wedge. you have billionaires saying we are doing all of this this philanthrope. where do you fall on that?

>> look, i believe in markets. we ought to have markets work. people who want to start small businesses should have a chance to grow them. but markets without rules are theft. one tenth of one percent hold this wedge. right now, you want to talk about fairness, this year, the people in that category are going to pay roughly about 3.4% of their total income in taxes. 99.9% of america is going to pay about 7.4% of their total wedge -- wealth in taxes. two cents is all i'm asking for. but we have so much inequality, so much has gone to the top. all we are saying to these

folks. nobody is mad or trying to punish but we are saying, look, you built a great fortune or inherited one but either way, that fortune was built on people we pay to educate, that was built on roads and bridges all of us helped pay for. you were protected in your business with police and fire all of us helped to pay for. all we are asking when you hit the big fortune, put the two cents back in so every other kid in this country gets a chance to be who they are. >> so elizabeth warren is running for the democratic party. the wealthy in this country is coming at you with everything they've got. there is going to be a mass mobilization of money against you. how do you defeat the kind of money that controls our

government. there is a whole lot more of us than them. if we get organized and build a grassroots movement on our side, we can fight back. this is a point where politics starts to break down. that wealth tax is supported strongly by democrats, independents and a majority of republicans. regardless of political party, there are a lot of people who get there is a lot broken in this country that is causing so much of the wealth to go to the top. we don't have to get rid of a system that works on markets and gives small businesses a chance. what we have to do is have a level playing field. they are not asking for a hand out, they are asking for a chance to get in the game. if those at the very top, 1/10th of 1% put in their two cents then all of our kids could get

in the game. >> one of the things great wealth buys is great power. one thing they've done is make sure voting is really hard for people that don't have any money and in some states people of color. we saw what happened in atlanta. >> let's be clear, they are going to fight us every inch of the way. we should say that openly. we have one of the two major political parties in this country, the republicans, who plan to hold on to power in this country by keeping american citizens from voting. that knocks one of the pillars of what a democracy is about. we can make a lot of changes once we are in power, 2020. to get there means it will take

all of us. we have to have a movement that we build face to face, neighbor to neighbor. friend to friend. community to community, all across this country. it will take all of us getting engaged. nobody gets to sit on the sidelines on this one. we come off the sidelines for basic fairness, to say my kid ought to get a chance, my kid ought to get a chance to go to a decent preschool and ought to have a chance to go to college without getting crushed by student load debt. we can come across and win not just the white house and not just the senate and the house but governor's mansions and state legislatures. that's what we need. but it is not just about winning in 2020 but about making real

change in 2021. that's where my focus is. we got to win in 2020 and that is going to take all of us but we are going to keep that same energy up and then we'll start putting our plans in place come january 2021 and making real change. think about what it would mean for the kids crushed by student loan debt now. $43 million americans who would wake up and say, that's it. that problem is gone. they may start a small business, take another job, it is life changing for people. >> the implication of what you are saying, a lot of these ideas would pass if the senate would even put them on the floor. popular ideas from getting to the floor. at this point, is mitch mcconnell as much a threat as donald trump? >> you bet. you are exactly right.

all kinds of stuff that is popular. student loan debt. there is a whole bunch of stuff we can do. that's why we have to get organized and mobilized and build a grassroots movement until that election in 2020 and really be ready to go. i'll tell you another thing, it will take having a president who knows where we are going and is willing to fight every inch of the way. >> last few minutes of my time, i want to ask about the current president. you have said you believe donald trump should be impeached. >> i do. >> a lot of people in your party are worried that impeachment would emboldened him and he would use that momentum to win reelection. what do you make of that argument? >> i never thought this is where we would be in the middle of a

presidential race. i was on an airport when the mueller report dropped and i started reading it. i read and a read. when i got to the end, i knew three things for sure. a hostile foreign government attacked our system to help donald trump, see the footnotes, it's all in there. part 2, donald trump welcomed that help. it is appalling, and it is all in there. part three when the federal government tried to investigate part 1 and part 2, he took actions, he tried everything that he could to derail, stop, move, distract, shut down that investigati investigation. we're not a dictatorship where the government all rallies around the dictator. we're a constitutional

democracy. and that means that no one is above the law. that includes the president of the united states. congress cannot read a report like that, american citizens cannot read a report like that and say "it is okay for a president of the united states to repeatedly, and it is documented, to try to block an investigation into his own wrongdoing and into an attack by a hostile foreign government. that's not okay. so mueller himself is our ears and our eyes. i core an oath to uphold the constitution of the united states. and the house most start impeachment proceedings. some people are more port than politics and ta is our constitution.

>> and despite the fact that you're seeking the presidency, do you believe the american presidency is too powerful and the constitution leave it's with too much room for the road? that it is not attainable by congress at this point? >> i believe the constitution is not what is being upheld here. we have a congress that has simply backed off from it's responsibilities. notice that it is just making an assumption that no matter what is in that report, that the republicans and the senate don't have to read it. the party needs to be above the constitution of the united states. that is deeply shocking. they uphold the intention of donald trump, they took an oath to uphold the constitution. they come times in our lives and

our history when you have to. >> there is a lot of women running for this office. what do you make of the argument that there is something wrong in the electorate where even women voters feel more comfortable, at least initially saying, i'm going to vote for a man. >> i have been around this block. when i ran for the senate in 2012 i never thought i would run for office. we had a very popular republican incumbent that just beat a woman, had plenty of money in the bank. they called me, you know, elizabeth, you should run for that senate office. you won't win, but you should win. democrats get a better sales pitch, but they said you should definitely run, but understand that massachusetts is not going to elect a woman. we had a very competent woman that just lost.

and we have not had a woman governor and they're not going to do it, i heard get in this fight, and i did, but at the beginning everyone talked about what i looked like, my hair, my clothes, but after awhile they listened to the arguments. in fact when of the things i was talking about back there was student loan debt. and talking about families getting a chance in this world. and after awhile, more and more people said hmm, so i went from down 17 points to beating that guy by 7.5. you know it's getting out there, making the fight, getting organized, building a grass roots movement. one thing i used to do every day. people would say they're not going to do this, i thought i'm going to make every day count, every time i met a little girl i

would say to her, i would get down and i would say hi, my name is elizabeth, i'm running for senate because that's what girls do and we would pinky promise to remember. now i say to little girls, my name is elizabeth, i'm running for president because that's what girls do. and that's how i'm going to be the first woman president of the united states of america. >> all right, we'll leave it at that, senator elizabeth warren, thank you for your time. good to be with you. thank you so much to senator elizabeth warren and make sure grow to our facebook and twitter pages and tell us what you thought about the interview. stick around, more "a.m. joy" after the break. pay as much for insurance... as not safe drivers! ah! that was a stunt driver. that's why esurance has this drivesense® app. the safer you drive, the more you save. don't worry, i'm not using my phone and talking to a camera while driving...

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so here is your opportunity, right now, to just say you apologize, you're sorry, i think we can clean it up right now. i did, i'm not going to judge if what was said was superintendent. i'm sorry he is was treated the way he is was treated. i don't think that i treated her badly. what i could not figure out what to do, and we still have not figured it out, how do you stop people from asking inflammatory questions.

>> one day after tending months of speculation, joe biden went on "the view" and confronted one of the biggest controversies of his political past. and still, he was not able to outright apologize to anita hill for how he treated. biden was the chairman on the senate judiciary committee at the time, but he failed to stop republican lawmakers from barraging him with incendiary, and at times sexually inappropriate questions. biden apologized to her personally, but again his apology was for how he is was treated. hill told the new york times that the call left her feeling deeply unsatisfied.

meanwhile biden is trying to moe on and creating the work done to address sexual harassment and violence towards women. >> look at what happened. when we got through that god awful experience, he is is one of the reasons why we have the me too mooumvement. one of the reasons i wrote the violence against women's act. so i went out and got a commitment that the i didn't mean they campaigned for would come on the committee. so he is is responsible for significant changes and he is deserves credit for them. >> joining me now is ambassador carol braun. he is was appointed to the judiciary committee. he is is a surrogate for his

presidential campaign. >> thank you, joy. it is a pleasure to be here. i volunteer for joe biden because i believe in his candidacy, so -- >> i appreciate you saying that. i tlaul you were inspired by anita hill's example and the abuse he is took in standing up and telling her story and facing down clarence thomas who was, at that point, a future supreme court justice taking the position that had a lot of african-american support at the time. you were inspired by her, and yet at this point, anita hill and you are on opposite sides of the joe biden question. he is said i cot be satisfied by simply saying i'm sorry for what happened to you. i will be satisfied when i know there is real change,

accountability and purpose to correct the finish that's are there. whether or not he should be disqualitied as president, he is says i'm biassed entirely to say whether or not everyone should this is disqualified. what i want to hear from him, and what i want to hear from all of the candidates, is this problem that we're experiencing now, that we're more aware of than ever before, women's integrity to protect their own bodies, that this is a big problem. what do you make of joe biden's attempt to apologize and that he is said that is not enough. >> that had to be one of the worst sfernss of her entire life. that had to have been grueling to watch and being in that frying pan had to be horrible for her, but what he is went through changed things for the better for millions and millions

of peep including myself. i know there is no way i would have been elected to the united states senate if anita hill did not stand there and go through what he is went through. it changed the climate, the culture, and it was a positive thing. change happens all of the time, but he is inspired positive chan change. forgiveness, as you know, is something you look forward to, not backwards at, it has to do with the future and not what happened already, but i hope that he is can reach a level of forgiveness for him because i believe that he is the most qualified of all of the candidates, and i have friends running in this race for president, but he is the most qualified candidate, he is the one that i believe can beat bozo in the white house. i hope we can come together as democrats to pick the best qualified candidate.

it is about who is the most kwul if ied to do the job. >> but it is also about getting the nomination itself, and you know the path to the nomination goes through black women. particularly the way the primaries are stacked, super tuesday is full of primaries, south carolina is about 50% african-americans, maybe even more, and black women look at anita hill as the starter of the me too movement. he is stood almost alone in defying clarence thomas. if he is is saying it's not good enough, then doesn't he need to say more than i'm sorry for what happened to you. can he get past the hurdle to get the nomination if he doesn't fix that? >> i'm not here to advise joe biden on television. having said that, i hope that he can reconcile with her. you're right, he isshe is a rol

model for so many, a shero if you will. he is really put it on the line for women and women's rights, but i say to you, i hold my feminist credentials up against anyone in the country, having said that, talking about black women as being the route to the white house, i agree with you on that and i'm hopeful that black women all over the country, women period will look at his qualifications, look at his record and what he has done. it is a moment in time that does not bode well for him, but sheer here is a man who put himself on the line for women, for working people over 20 od yed years. he has put himself out there, he has been a giver, and always tried to do the right thing. i think that -- and i have

worked up close and personal with him in the senate, even afterwards we stayed in connection. i have every confidence that he has the judgment, the instincts, the heart, the capacity to do the job that we need to have done for our entire country and that's why i standing with him. >> thank you, ambassador, always a pleasure to talk to you, thank you for taking the time. >> great to be here, thank you. >> we have a former white house senior director joining us now, thank you all for being here. i will come to jamil for your reaction. the reality is that the risk is that he is right now new england such high regard particularly yy african-americans and democrats. he gets the obama glow now, but once you run for president,

hillary clinton was very popular before he is rshe ran for presid then people started to dismantle her. is he able, in your view, to shake that off? >> it would help if he did apologize. he did not apologize for what he has dope and he failed to do his job. he failed to call the corroborating witnesses that would have helped her, that were available to her, to help corroborate her case. he left her in a position, he said he is sashe said, and made the situation was worse for her and more difficult for her. he could have made the situation better for her. there are other things he has to contend with. he has to contend with the allegations of inappropriate

behavior, that he was behind the 1994 crime bill. he has to contend with a number of thing that's will make it more difficult for him. >> do you think he will get the same -- hillary clinton was first lady and a lot of folks he held the crime bill against her and he is was just first lady. >> the fact that joe biden was chairman of the senate judiciary committee, democrats controlled the united states senate at that time, right? so you had clarence thomas that has been one of the most hostile to voting rights, and has been hostile to workers rights versus corporate rights, et cetera. and african-americans feel they're not necessarily looking out aggressively for their interests, but joe biden was one of these helped make sure he got on the court, right?

is that going to end up being an issue? >> he didn't vote against clarence thomas. i don't want to jump up and down on him because he could be the nominee, and if he is i'm going to vote for him, he is not a g bigotted lunatic, but the theory of his candidacy is exhausting right. even his supporters do not point to specific policies. they look at his general page, and they say that is what it will take to beat trump. why? what is, what is one thing that we know about joe biden, one thing we know about him is that he is very bad for running for president. he lost multiple times in the past. is he going to be better at

reaching midwestern voters than amy klobuchar? is he going to be better at rebuilding the obama coalition than corey booker that sr. try so hard to be obama that he is sch about to ask michelle on a date. >> that will be on twitter later. let me what is joe biden putting forward, essentially, he can win back. he can win back white working class voters, it is the theory that they have been running on that they will find the white working class voter, it's what they want to do and they're very obsessed with it. and let me just show you a little bit of the announcement video where he went at what he is promoting. it is to restore a certain

amount of integrity to the way that race and other issues are played in the country, here it is. >> a brave young woman lost her life, and then we heard the words of the president of the united states, he said there were "some very fine people on both sides." very fine people on both sides? with those words the president of the united states assigned a moral equivalent between those spreading hate and those with the courage to stand against it. and in that moment, i knew the threat to this nation was unlike any i had ever seen in my lifetime. >> you know, being biden there was a glitch. he didn't call me, and he mentioned my daughter's name. there was a glitch, but to make his point, then it triggered droump do this, take a look.

>> i answered that question, and if you look at what i said, you saw i was talking about people that went, they went very strongly about the monument to robert e. lee, a great general, he was one of the great generals. i have spoken to many generals here at the white house, and many people thought of the generals they think he was maybe their favorite general. people were there protesting taking down the monument of robert e lee. >> he was a vicious slave holder, your a witness, it is kind of -- trump makes the point that biden is trying to make. look, biden says charlottesville and trump doubles down on "very fine people." >> that is the great part of biden being able to trigger

donald trump. he is the candidate for people who want to get back to the idea of bill clinton. the theory of the case that this primary is about who can you elect that will beat donald trump, a lot of people can see that biden would be the great general election candidate. the theory of the case is that the primary is part of a new direction of the party. biden becomes the establishment guy, he becomes the person looking to really shake things up and change things for people that think things have been broken for a very long time. it is the difference between an open seat election, which obama had when he won, and when really you can feel free to vote for who you like. and that the difference between a incumbent election when many people are scared because of what they see in the white house, don't want to vote for what they like, and want to vote

instead for what they think everybody else will doe, and that is the big electability question. in terms of electability, yes we have not elected a woman president yet, but in 2018, 60% of the seats that were flipped were flipped by women who were running for office. the democratic party has not named a wom -- nominated a woman in the past. and we are moving ahead in ways and there is a positive momentum for change and it is a matter of how people will be changed by the trump specter. >> it's not so much about what you would do, people are afraid of what other people will do, what will my neighbor prefer, right? you have these people getting a leg up, people assuming my neighbor will only vote for someone like that, that is what elizabeth warren was pushing back on in houston. >> i think to counter that point a little bit, joe biden was

playing into donald trump's hands. it plays into a really misunderstanding of white identity politics that trump, you know, used to get into the white house. joe biden is really talking about what trump is saying and instead of playing clips of family separation, of neglect in puerto rico, people held up by the muslim ban, the racism done by donald trump's policies, we're talking about what he said about charlottesville two years ago in an op-ed that joe biden wrote about it, this is not really intelligence interrogation of what donald trump's presidency has been about. >> it is such an important point, i want people to really understand what he just said. donald trump wants to make this election about who will be best for white men. he wants to fight on this ground. democrats need to fight on the other ground of who will be best

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zlerchlgts the . >> they want us to be just like california. right down to tofu, and silicon, and dyed hair. >> california has been a frequent target of republicans, but the state is fighting back. so far california's justice department has filed 49 lawsu s lawsuits. that is nearly as many lawsuits as texas filed against the federal government during all eight years of the obama administration. joining me now, i'm happy to be in your state, i'm sorry we're not here in person, but thank you for joining us.

>> good to be with you especially when you're in california. >> let's just go through some of the lawsuits that you and the state filed against the trump administration. there is two lawsuits that you filed on consumer rights. 24 lawsuits on the environment, six on health care, 11 on immigration, one on lbgtq rights, five other lawsuits, you just recently temporarily halted attempts by the trump administration to deny money and they provide abortion referrals. is the trump administration at this point a major focus of your office and trying to fight them on behalf of the country? >> it is part of the work that we did you don't become the fifth largest economy in the world. and we want today continue to

create those good jobs. we graduate more people from college than anyone else. they are the innovator and the place and they live that life that is the american dream and we do what we must going forward. we got a $150 million settlement against morgan stanley. they cheated a lot of californians out of their pension and retirement money. and so we're doing a loet of different things beyond trump. if someone wants to get in our way, we'll do what we need to let us beat california. >> i get what you're saying that he is not the focus of everything, but donald trump recently this month, this month, threaten today essentially ship migrants to california city that's are sanctuary cities saying california always says we want more people, let's see if

they like it, and threatening to just dump people here. what did you make of that threat on the state of california? >> what do you make of something like that? especially coming out of a president. first it is unprecedented to hear someone talk like that when he know it's is against the law to target states like that. two, he doesn't recognize what his powers really are. we'll do what we must. i tell folks that i don't listen to what he says, i watch what he does. the moment he tries to do something that is a violation of the law we'll hold him to the same standards of everyone else, no one is above the law. >> also the state is leading a 20 state coalition to try to fight against this border wall funding by emergency declaration. do you believe that ultimately the state of california will be able to prevent the trump administration from expr expropriating funds, and putting it into a vanity wall project.

>> there are more than 20 states part of this legal effort that stop the trump administration from shifting the constitution. we expect that a lot of tax dollars will come back to our state. they fixed this morning, we want to steal those dollars from us. and we're going to send those dollars for a fabricated emergency on the border, we're going to fight. and we think we have a very good shot. >> your office issued a release talking about the in fact you filed for preliminary injunction. and it is essentially

restricting access to preventive health care like birth control. what do you make of an administration trying to force a very large blue state, a very populous and very economically powerful blue state to live under the red state dictates of people not in the state isn't the. >> and the restrictions that the trump administration tries to place on the family planning services, you could be hit just as hard bhap we -- but what we achieved, the thing that trump tried to do something illegally.

we're going to fight because a woman in consultation with her dock ter what is best for her, not trump and pence. >> and their epa is rolling back rules, california particularly where i am now fought hard to clean up their air. what do you make of the fake that the federal government is trying to force like california is trying to clean up their air again. >> the trump administration tried so hard, but it is the same thing when we took on the department of education.

folks that eat those foots are low income, and they require some assistant. and to go back to the old days when we allowed our foots to be less nutritious at school, this is 2019, not 1920. >> california attorney general, thank you so much for being here, i really appreciate your time here this morning. >> thank you, joy. >> coming up, a panel of impeachment experts. stay with us. that will be good, that is next.

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this week donald trump said they will flatly refuse to address the subpoena power, perhaps trump does want mcgahn to testify because he nears a john dean moment.

>> the president almost from the outset asked me a number of leading questions that was somewhat unlike his normal conversational relationships that i had had with him, which made me think the conversation was being taped and a record was being made to protect himself. i do not in fact know if such a tape exists, but if it does exist, it has not been tampered with, and it was a complete recording of the conversation, i believe he would corroborate many of the things that this committee asked know testify about. >> dean wound up spending four months in prison for his role in the watergate scandal. when we come back, the lessons of watergate. you wouldn't accept an incomplete job from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills? flonase relieves your worst symptoms including nasal congestion, which most pills don't. flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances.

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and reaches everywhere. this is beyond wifi. this is xfi. simple, easy, awesome. . the supreme court just ruled on the taped controversy and here is that ruling. >> it was a unanimous decision, doug, 8-0. ordering the president of the united states to turnover the tapes. it is an 8-0 unanimous opinion that president nixon must obey. >> july 24th, the height of the

water gate scandal. the supreme court ordered richard nixon the trove of the white house tapes. nixon resigned 16 days later demonstrating that no one is above the law. the white house is signaling it will assert executive privilege to block key aides from testifying to congress. >> we're fighting all of the subpoenas, these are not impartial people. the subpoena is ridiculous. i have been the most transparent president and administration in the history of our country by far. >> joining me now is jill winebanks. nick acreman, also a former water gate prosecutor.

and elizabeth holtzman, author of "the case for impeaching trump." first, two of the articles of impeachment, one of them making false and misleading statements. they believed a thorough investigation had been conducted. from article three, failing to produce papers and things as directed by dually authorized subpoenas. those sound like things that donald trump has done. how can it be arguable that what donald trump is doing in defying these seasons is different from nixon. >> it can't really be. and he doesn't really have a leg to stand on president the president covered up the break

in so he interfered second was an abuse of power including covering up the water gate break in, and third was the cover up in connection with the impeachment inquiry. that he refused too cooperate. and refused entirely to give us other documents. so here we have a president of the united states saying i'm not is your honoring anything over to congress. he can't pick and choose when to give information. and the refusal of nixon to turn over information to the house judiciary committee was an article of impeachment. >> and nick ackerman, that is

with nickson tuxon turning over tapes. he complied. and they refused to make officials available saying that one of them, cheryl cline, the former director of personnel security will only appear if he has a lawyer from the justice department with him. it is hard to understand how congress can allow the president to get away with that. bill clinton's articles of impeachment included asking witnesses to lie. encourts witnesses to lie. and to encourage the secretary to lie about the affair that he was having with monica lewinsky. they have encouraged feel tell lies by dangling par cons for

them. >> they have every right to get all of these documents into all of these witnesses. starting with the secretary treasurer who is refusing to turn over taxes thoech there is a specific statute that provides that the irs has to turn it over to congress, and on top of it there is good reasons to receive those taxes. one, congress has the constitutional oversight with respect to the emaluments clause, he cannot accept money from foreign governments without the approval of congress, and it relates to their impeachment power. i think congress has to take a very hard line and if they have to they have an inhaernt authority to hold people in con tempt for not producing documents and not testifying. and if the secretary treasurer

does not produce those income tax returns he ought to be held in contempt, put in prison, and he ought to stay there until he produces those tax returns and the same goes for the other witnesses. >> and on that point, a couple members of congress talked about what punishment should accrue for people that refuse to apply forcongre for congressional subpoenas. >> they need to hold individuals in contempt, and we ought to be preteared to imprison them. >> we need to do what we need to do. subpoenas, hearings, finding people, and if we have to put people in jail. >> can you explain thu would practically be done? how would this idea that if they don't comply that go to jail carry out in realtime?

>> it is a very tough question and because they don't have the authority, and they know that the department of justice will not exert, they will not bring a criminal content case against any of the witnesses. this is the beginning of the end of democracy if we do not have three sprat but equal branchs. if congress doesn't have the power to enforce in the end during water gate. richard nixon did believe in the rule of law, and when ordered by courts to comply. it leads to what can congress do, impeachment is one thing they can do, and i would say in terms of the process it's not a b bianry choice. between how they do it, it is

not a choice between their constitutional obligation, between their mor rial imperati and the political reality that he will not be convicted even though he would be impeached. it is a choice of process. and i say what they need to do is start educating the people who will then rise up and say to their representatives, i have seen the witnesses, and that is not barr and mueller, that is people like mcgahn who have actual knowledge, who can be judged for their red ability, i want to see how they come aclose like we heard cohen going from being a disbelievable fixer to a credible witness in the minds of people. so we need the fact finding hearings and then we can move to what is the next step?

is impeachment the right thing. he will have an asterisk after his name saying he did something wrong. we can't let it go unpunished. we can't let him skate away. he said last night if e had been the author, it would have been crime and no punishment. >> let me play what adam schiff said. >> if we don't impeach him, that sends a message that this kind of obstruction of justice, this use of a foreign nonimpeachable. if we do impeach him, and he is acquitted like he would like i will be acquitted, then the

message is they're not impeachable. there is only one way to deal with the problem which is to vote him out of office. >> is that real? only two presidents have the mark of impeachment on them and it is not something they want on their legacy. is it true that donald trump if not convicted he has escaped and the idea would be those events are not impeachable. or that they did something wrong. they did something beyond what a normal. >> it is a sign of impeachment, richard nixon resigned to office, just from the vote of the house judiciary committee. it wasn't even the full house. and that, by the way, had a lasting impact on history.

he was disgrazced for all time s a result of that. i think you can't poopoo that. i have said this before. you need though get the witnesses and educate the american people. they need to see mcgahn, the lawyers, that was another thing that mueller didn't do, he kind of stopped at the attorney client privilege, congress is not bound by it, there is much more information about what donald trump tried to do in terms of obstructing, interfering, and impeding the investigations. i believe the critical thing for congress now is to move forward, whatever they want to call it, but move forward to getting the facts so congress can then decide whether or not to impeach. right now it looks like there are potentially very strong cases and by the way congress does have the power to enforce it's own contempt citations. a little jail in the capital. personally i would get the rats

out, buy some clean sheets and show the white house that they can engage in a massive cover up which is what this is. this is a cover up on every single aspect. a president's taxes, whether or not he told his county till -- counsel or sessions. he can't engage in a total cover up. this is the end of his democracy. >> jill winebanks, should democrats be thinking about the polling that at this point a majority of americans is not for impeachment. people weren't for impeaching nixon either. when you were on those committeest, doing that work, were you worried about public. or more concerned about the plain old rule of law? >> we were concerned about the rule of law. we worried about not what people

would do although we did have the benefit of the senate hearings, letting people see the witnesses, and we had the benefit of tape recordings that you could hear. we only had a few tape recordings at the time he won 49 states. he won the popular vote. he a very high approval rating.

donald trump never had even a 50% approval rating and it's falling now. so if the facts come out, i believe his voters like paula duncan, a manafort juror who said i'm a loyal trump supporter, i think this investigation is a hoax and witch-hunt, but the evidence against him made me vote because the evidence was clear. >> and i'm not even sure what president might have had a lower approval rating at this point than he does so the idea he would somehow become a bill clinton level popular doesn't seem likely because of impeachment. but if they weren't called impeachment hearings, what kind of hearings were the watergate hearings? were they impeachment hearings or watergate hearings or something else? >> there were two sets of hearings. the first was before the senate selection committee that educated the public to what the narrative was.

we don't have that here yet. they had john gain as you mentioned before and a whole series of witnesses that basically spelled out the entire narrative between june and july and may of 1973. so the public was well educated and i think that is the middle ground we need right now, for the public to understand exactly what's in that mueller report. people are not going to sit there like i did and read through 465 pages of this court. no one is going to do that unless you're going on television to talk about it. so i think the public has to see these people in real life actually testifying before congress, talking about their personal knowledge, what the president did, what he said and give the details about this obstruction of justice. if you take any one of the cases that mueller outlines, would it and of itself justify a criminal prosecution. >> go on. >> and on top, just to follow up

i think with what liz said about the contempt proceeding, and also what jill said, the house does have a mechanism, they have the sergeant of arms who can go out there and actually arrest people who do not comply with subpoenas and do not comply with what the house is directing. so the same person that we see greeting the president every year for the state of the union address is the same person who would greet secretary mnuchin when he doesn't turn over trump's tax returns. he will take him to the prison and announce him as secretary of the treasurer. >> that i think is what frustrates a lot of democrats when they're watching the binary that democrats seem to be setting up, the only thing we can do is defeat him in 20 because impeachment would be unpopular, you're hearing these three experts lay out all of the

alternatives have from using the sergeant in arms to a contempt proceeding or try to get a criminal contempt proceeding going to just having hearings in the senate isn't going to do it, but could the house then maybe start a mueller-gate hearing or russia gate hearing, whatever you want to call them, and start that now and it's not impeachment yesterday. it's public hearings that are televised daily to at least let the public understand what happened. >> the answer is all of the above by any means necessary. like we just have to do everything we can think of to try to bring these people to the hill. i would add one more later on to this, we will just beat them in 2020 aspect, there is value, i believe, in putting senate republicans on the record as either supporting donald trump or impeaching donald trump. because people need to remember the senate republicans of today are the senate presidential candidates of tomorrow. and there is value in knowing if

tom cotton would have voted to impeach. there's value in knowing whether mike lee would have voted to impeach, kevin mccarthy. these are the people that are going to be running for office when trump is gone. democrats should be able to -- should be putting these people on the record, do you stand up for the constitution? do you stand up for democracy? or are you a trump sycophant party-first person? everything, democrats should be doing everything all at once at the same time. and if that seems exhausting for them, they shouldn't run for office in 2018 because they knew this was coming. >> i will give elizabeth holtzman the last word here. talk to your colleagues in the current congress. give them some advice. you made the point, jill wine-banks made the point, he was popular when this started -- >> people change their minds. the american people voted for him overwhelmingly so for the public to support our impeachment with a vote in the house judiciary committee, they

had to change their minds. and that's a big majority of people we're talking about. we don't have to change people's minds. we just have to persuade them of the facts. i think the other thing that's really important is the framers of the constitution had this debate when they decided to have impeachment power. should we have impeachment power? and a lot of people got up and said what do we need impeachment power for? we have elections. that will solve it. they didn't accept that argument. they said presidents are too dangerous in the interim. we've got to have the power of impeachment and put it in the hands of congress. we didn't, call, by the way, our inquiry an impeachment effort. we called an impeachment inquiry, when we started in october 1973, we did not know where we would end up, we didn't have the facts. we started a fair and thorough process. that's what they should be thinking about. >> thank you so jill wine branchs, elizabeth holtzman, all

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