ll this stuff? no. i'm not even done yet. wow. business tv. cloud apps and support. comcast business goes beyond at&t. start with internet and voice for just $59.90 a month. it's everything a small business owner needs. comcast business. beyond fast. that does it for today. thanks so much for watching. a.m. joy will be back next saturday 10:00 a.m. eastern. and frances rivera picks it up for here, in for alex witt. so great to sigh you, frances. ? always great to see you, joy. >> have a great rest of your day. >> you too. >> good morning from msnbc headquarters in new york. high noon in the east, 9:00 out west. welcome to weekends with alex witt. i'm frances rivera in for alex. not again. another place of worship attacked by a gunman. new details about the victims and the possible motive. yes or no. why there's concern the attorney general may not testify this

week before a house committee. >> i believe if he were not the president of the united states he would likely be indicted on obstruction. >> new takes on the president's high-stakes battle with congress. plus a tale of two presidents. both speaking in the past 24 hours. we'll hear from both. and we begin with new details on that synagogue shooting in california. a rabbi shot during the attack is out of surgery and talking about his experience. it happened on the last day of passover in poway, a suburb north of san diego. police say a 19-year-old man walked into the synagogue and opened fire wan salt-style rifle. lori gilbert kaye was shot dead. a child and two adults including the rabbi were wounded. the mayor of poway said the city was somewhat prepared. >> shortly after the tree of life shooting six months and a day ago myself and members of our poway sheriff's department

visited with the chabad family and shared some thoughts and ideas with them on what to do in a situation like this. and i suspect that that session that we had with them probably helped save lives yesterday. but the rabbi was brave. it comes as no surprise to me. i look forward to visiting with him later. >> neighbors gathered at a nearby church last night to offer prayers and songs of peace. nbc's cal perry joins us from outside the synagogue in california. cal, what are we hearing from the leader of this congregation? >> yeah, as you mentioned, rabbi goldstein, who's overseen his congregation since it opened in 1986, speaking out after surgery this morning on the "today" show, recounting that harrowing experience from yesterday morning. take a listen. >> i 2ur7bdturned around and i face to face with this murderer terrorist. he was holding the rifle and looking straight at me. he started to shoot towards me,

and that's when i put my hands up and my fingers got blown away. and then he continued on and he just killed lori kaye right there on the spot. i turned around and i saw a group of children in the banquet hall including my granddaughter and i just ran not even knowing that my fingers were blown off and just curled all the kids together and got them outside. >> reporter: police today looking at two things, the scene in the synagogue behind me of course. they'll be going through that forensically. but also what they're finding online from the gunman. the messages that he put up. harkening back to that horrific massacre in new zealand. basically comparing this attack to that attack. inspirations that the gunman had of a similar type massacre, which is why many here are saying that it could have been far worse. we understand from authorities that the gun itself, that ar-15

which is such a popular weapon for these mass shootings, may have actually jammed while inside the synagogue. also reports that an off-duty customs and border protection officer at one point engaged with the gunman. unable to shoot at the gunman himself but hitting the vehicle as it left the synagogue. so a lot of questions here. we expect a press conference at some point during the day today, hopefully to clear up some of these issues, frances. >> still chilling to think of what could have happened if that rifle didn't malfunction like they reported it to be. all right. cal perry for us. cal, thank you. now to politics and developing this hour the justice department now threatening to call off attorney general bill barr's testimony before the house judiciary committee thursday. that's the word from a senior democratic aide for the committee, telling nbc the doj is taking issue with conditions being placed on the a.g. over his testimony. the committee wants to be able to go into executive session to ask about portions of the redacted mueller report. it also wants democratic and republican counsels to ask

questions for 30 minutes each. after all members finish their five-minute question period. a doj official tells nbc news things are still under discussion. barr is scheduled to testify wednesday before a senate judiciary and thursday before house judiciary. earlier senate judiciary member and 2020 presidential candidate amy klobuchar giving a preview of what to expect. >> when i asked you if it was obstruction to try to impede the integrity of a witness testimony, you said that it was. and now we've got all kinds of evidence of pardons being dangled out. we've got evidence of the president's counsel being told to change his story. evidence of him being told to fire the special counsel. to me this looks like obstruction of justice, which is exactly what barr had told me in those questions. so i view this as an opportunity to really push him on what obstruction of justice is. >> senate judiciary chair lindsey graham made clear he's

done litigating this. >> timing is everything in this business, and it's one thing to run out -- down a route toward impeachment. it's something else to lay a foundation, gather the facts, educate the american people so that we can see exactly what needs to be done and when we should do it. >> over for me. he didn't collude with the russians. obstruction of justice in this situation is absurd. i fought hard as hell to make sure mueller could do his job, introduced legislation to make sure he couldn't be fired. it's over. >> senate judiciary chair lindsey graham making that clear he's done litigating that. but also new today a poll on the democratic presidential nomination race. joe biden on top with 17%. bernie sanders with 11%. and pete buttigieg with 5%. kamala harris, beto o'rourke, and elizabeth warren earning 4%. to the white house now and nbc's hance nichols.

what more tell bus this possible barr testimony glitch? >> reporter: this is the beginning of a process fight that is actually a proxy battle for how forthcoming the administration will be with congressional democrats that are trying to get more answers, more information about the entire process. you're also seeing both camps line into their positions. you had a spokesperson on the house judiciary committee basically pushing back on this idea saying the democrats are overstepping. let me read that statement to you real quick. he says, "democrats have yet to prove their demands anything but abusive and illogical in light of the transparency and good faith the attorney general has shown our committee." you heard a version of this argument, frances, from the president himself yesterday when he was out there in green bay, or the green bay area, talking about how this is all just a witch hunt. he used some familiar language. he went a little bit further talking about these guys were scum that were trying to go after him. and then you have one of the president's closest allies, i believe he may be playing golf with him today, lindsey graham,

talking about what he thinks is the real goal here and he thinks the president got a clean bill of health. >> i think the idea that this president obstructed justice is absurd. he turned over a million documents to the special counsel. almost everybody around him testified. i can't think of one thing that president trump did to stop mueller from doing his job. he never claimed executive privilege. from my point of view i've heard all i need to really know. now i want to look at -- find out how all this happened. >> now, senator graham did say the president never claimed executive privilege. but clearly that's what the white house is telegraphing, that they are going to claim executive privilege as to the testimony of some of the individuals that democrats clearly want to hear from. that's don mcgahn, the former white house counsel. it could be rod rosenstein, the deputy a.g. it could be a whole host of people is what you're seeing on capitol hill. at least on the democratic side. is an attempt to reconstruct the mueller report but have people

raise their hand, testify under oath about what they did during that very tumultuous time. frances? >> we'll all be watching closely on wednesday and thursday. if thursday happens. thank you so much. joining me now is gabriel sherman, special correspondent for "vanity fair" and also charlie savage, washington correspondent for the "new york times" and also msnbc contributor. as we get started, we begin with you, charlie. how do you see the barr testimony playing out given how differently republicans and democrats are viewing his appearance? >> well, republicans are clearly lining up with president trump. there's nothing new about that. senator graham's comments this morning saying he doesn't want to hear anything more about trump's acts that may or may not be obstruction of justice. all he wants to do is investigate how the investigation got going in the first instance. is emblematic of the partisan polarization, allegiances on display here. but it doesn't seem tenable for the executive branch simply to stonewall and not show up for

testimony starting with william barr but also with all these subpoenas that president trump says he's going to fight. this is a collision that's going to be resolved somehow sooner rather than later. >> one of the focuses is redacted material, especially of that the grand jury. gabriel, what are some of the biggest questions here that congress will want to focus on? and based on what you heard there from lindsey graham, do you think that barr will get a pass from republicans? >> well, several things. i interviewed rudy giuliani last week, and the trump camp is really laser focused on don mcgahn's testimony before the special counsel's office. and specifically the notion that the president directed don mcgahn to dismiss robert mueller and when mcgahn didn't comply that president trump gave that directive to his former campaign manager corey lewandowski. that is one of the clearest-cut examples that be advanced by democrats to show that the president was trying to impede the investigation by making

overtures to fire the special counsel. so i think democrats are going to want to hear from don mcgahn under oath about whether the president did indeed tell him to fire robert mueller. and then in bill barr's testimony, the attorney general's testimony, democrats are going to want to understand why his summary was such a limited view and to what degree did the summary not reflect the views of the special counsel's office. >> and also in that press conference he had even before the entire report was released. >> exactly zblip want to talk about barr's testimony when it comes to the white house and the fight as far as all the subpoenas, this new battle between congress and the president. charlie, i know you were about this in your article here. talk about that. and when it comes to the white house, what are the ultimate goals here? >> i think the ultimate goal for the white house is to make this just part of the 2020 campaign and to show that trump is fighting and to run out the

clock. i don't think they have a legal leg to stand on in terms of not even showing up, answering no questions, trying to assert executive privilege over material the executive branch has already made public by barr releasing this report. just so they -- because they want to avoid the image of don mcgahn on television repeating the same information. i don't think a court is going to ultimately side with the executive branch on that. but between here and there maybe months and months of litigation to run out the clock. and just to add one more thing to the earlier segment, the episode that seems the most cleanest and most difficult case of obstruction for the white house to get around i think is not just the events of 2017 where trump tells mcgahn to fire -- to have mueller fired but the events of january 2018 when that comes out in the press and then trump orders mcgahn on threat of firing to falsify evidence, contradicting what had happened and mcgahn refuses.

the falsification of evidence in january 2018 order is really a big problem for the white house. >> speaking of that, gabe, in the aftermath here of the release of the mueller report you write about this meltdown inside the president's mar-a-lago. what's behind that? you say trump's furious with don, inside the president's mar-a-lago meltdown. >> when the president went to mar-a-lago for easter weekend i interviewed people who spoke to him that weekend, and it was a common refrain, just the unbridled anger that the president felt at being sort of the victim of the mueller report in his view. and the other thing that i found striking is that the president told people in private that he intends to go on the offensive and try to go after in his words the people that he blames for initiating the mueller investigation, namely, former fbi director jim comey, andrew mccabe, former fbi director peter strzok and lisa page.

the president wants his attorney general to call a special counsel to essentially investigate the investigators. and i think this is a case where the president is going to try to -- all the shackles have been taken off him. there's really no one inside the white house that is holding the president back. and so you're seeing this president basically try to go on the offensive and use the fact that there was no collusion in a legal sense proven to go on the offensive and try to discredit this investigation. which politically, we should point out, is incredibly problematic because as charlie mentioned there are very specific cases that could be construed as obstruction of justice. >> interesting perspective on "meet the press" this morning. i want to play you that. what former deputy attorney general sally yates told my colleague andrea mitchell this morning about the president on obstruction of justice. let's listen. >> i've been a prosecutor for nearly 30 years, and i can tell you i've personally prosecuted obstruction cases on far, far less evidence than this. and yes, i believe if he were

not the president of the united states he would likely be indicted on obstruction. >> charlie, is that widespread belief sally yates was fired by the administration. >> sally yates is no fan of the trump administration, obviously. so take that opinion with that understanding in mind. but what this really boils down to, i think, and to hook this back into the question of whether william barr will testify next week in a meaningful sense, is the mystery about how barr could have pronounced trump cleared of obstruction of justice after having a day or two to look at this report. now that we've seen the underlying report thanks to barr's transparency about it, it doesn't seem to make sense unless barr simply thinks the president by definition cannot obstruct justice, as he once wrote in a memo before he became attorney general. and so i think that's one of the things that democrats really want to grill him about, because of the huge mismatch between

what's in this report and how he portrayed it. >> we will watch and listen on wednesday and possibly thursday. maybe not. tbd. we will see. thanks to both of you. gabriel sherman and charlie savage. appreciate your time. bernie sanders tries to connect with women of color and he gets booed. omarosa manigault newman weighs in a little bit later. s in a little bit later. so it's a daunting task. oh i love it. it's a great razor. it has that 'fence' in the middle. it gives a nice smooth shave. just stopping that irritation... that burn that i get is really life changing. >> tech: you think this chip is well sooner or later... every chip will crack. >> mom: hi. >> tech: so bring it to safelite. we can repair it the same day... guaranteed. plus with most insurance,

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is he going to try to assert executive privilege? >> xeblth privilege is always on option. it's already on the table. but don mcgahn has already talked under oath for 30 hours. this is just presidential harassment. >> so he is? is he going to block -- >> i said it's his right. >> the president and administration officials are issuing new threats for house democrats today. this comes as the oversight and judiciary committees have called on former and current administration officials to testify on capitol hill. joining me now is democratic congressman from virginia jared connolly. he is a member of the house oversight committee. congressman, i appreciate your being with me today. >> my pleasure. >> before we talk about the investigation i want to get your response to the synagogue shooting in california. you look at this case, other shootings as well, and then the driver this past week who ran over pedestrians he thought were muslim. would you go so far as to say the nation has a domestic terrorism crisis? and how do we combat it as a face? >> there's no question that we

have a domestic terrorism problem. there's no question that a lot of haters feel enabled and emboldened in the current environment. we saw that in charlottesville. we saw that in the synagogue in pittsburgh. and we saw it again yesterday. i listened carefully to the rabbi from his hospital bed describe the horror that unfolded in his synagogue, a place of worship. you know, the united states has to get serious about cracking down on this kind of domestic terrorism and get serious about gun control. we cannot have the kind of random but frequent holocausts that occur throughout our country as if they are the new norm. they can't be. and we can't settle for this. >> i want to turn now to kellyanne conway. we played that at the top here before we introduced you. you heard her say that trump's executive privilege to prevent

mcgahn from complying is always an option. so would you consider that obstruction, has executive privilege already been waived here? >> i believe it has been. i believe the very argument miss conway just used can be turned against the white house. given the fact that mcgahn has already provided lots of testimony before the special counsel, there's zero reason for why he wouldn't expand on that in open session before a committee of the united states congress. secondly, i would also argue that he is now a civilian. he no longer works in the white house. so i would question whether executive privilege would continue to pertain. and finally, congress can compel testimony, and in this case i think it should. >> in that case given, that does your committee plan on calling him to testify? >> well, i think right now it's the house judiciary committee that's planning to call mr. mcgahn but at some point it's possible the oversight and reform committee could do so as well. but i do believe mr. mcgahn has an obligation to appear before a legitimate committee of congress

under subpoena or voluntarily. mr. mcgahn as a citizen is free voluntarily to say i will comply with the request. >> i want to turn now to the testimony of a.g. barr here. according to a senior democratic aide on the house judiciary here, a.g. barr is now warning he may not show up to a hearing this week about mueller's report. this isn't the only hearing the administration is stonewalling. we foe that they're suing your committee and instructed officials not to testify among other things. so what is your reaction to this stonewalling? because you've got the president who is saying and making it very clear on his side that he is the most transparent president. >> yeah. that's a nice try. he's perhaps the most obfuscating president and prevaricating president wheef ever will in the history of the republic. but with respect to mr. barr he has a lot of explaining to do because of the huge variances between his four-page summary and his description of the mueller report in his press conference and the actual 400-page mueller report.

they are radically different documents. and he has to appear before congress. he is the attorney general of the united states. he's accountable. and i will point out that although he seems to be objecting to the fact that a counsel non-elected member may also query him at the hearing there's a long congressional tradition of dpog that. rfk played that role in the hoffa hearings. you know, fred thompson did it during the watergate committees. and finally the republicans themselves hired independent counsel to query christine ford in the kavanaugh hearings, rachel mitchell. so there's a long tradition of doing this, and mr. barr has no leg to stand on in his objection. >> i want to delve in more into what you call the stonewalling here, an assault on the legislative branch. let's take a quick listen to that. >> an assault on the legislative branch of our government. and it's an assault on the constitutional framework of our government. we're going to resist. and if a subpoena is issued and

you are told you must testify we will back that up. and we will use any and all power in our command to make sure it's backed up. whether that's a contempt citation, whether that's going to court and getting that citation enforced, whether it's fines, whether it's possible incarceration. >> incarceration? would say strang word there, congressman. do you think there would be political backlash from this step, especially keep in mind you've got 2020 the election coming up. >> let me just say yeah, it's strong words. but so is president trump's threat to order all of his administration officials to defy any and all subpoenas. that is an assault on our form of government. it cannot be accepted. and it must be resisted at all costs. now, you know, somebody can be incarcerated because we go to court and the court upholds the subpoena, you don't comply oar now in contempt of court, that's a criminal defense and you're going to go to jail for that and you should.

but congress has its own independent power, not one used since the teapot team scanddome scandal. but that doesn't mean congress doesn't independently have the right to order the sergeant at arms to detain somebody, to arrest and detain somebody who is in failure of compliance. >> on the topic of impeachment i want to ask you about that because you said that calls for impeachment of the president were premature and not based on the evidence at hand. compare it to the boy who cried wolf. you've seen the evidence that mueller has. where do you stand on this now? >> i have to admit that the mueller report is probably causing a lot of us to reassess our position on that subject. i'm not there yet, but i've got to tell you, the mueller report is profoundly disturbing and very damning. and it absolutely does not exonerate the president either from the russia thing and certainly not from obstruction. i would say the mueller report all but says the president is guilty of a crime, i didn't indict him because i'm not

allowed to but you can. either in congress or subsequent prosecutor once he's out of office. that's an extraordinary statement from a special prosecutor. and he left a trail of breadcrumbs including documenting eight -- ten different times in i which trump probably crossed the line and commit aid crime of obstruction of justice. >> we will leave it at that, sir. representative gerry connolly, we thank you for being with me. thank you for your time. new insight from someone who witnessed the president's early days in office firsthand. omarosa manigault newman joins me here next. here next alright, i brought in

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i never told don mcgahn to fire mueller. if i wanted to fire mueller i would have done it myself. it's very simple. i had the right to. and frankly whether i did or he did we had the absolute right to fire mueller. >> president trump doubling down on disputing a key finding of the mueller report, that he ordered former white house counsel don mcgahn to fire the special counsel. joining me now, omarosa manigault newman. she is former director of communications for the office of public liaison in the white house and also the author of "unhinged: an insider's account of a trump white house." as we were playing that,

omarosa, you were chuckling here when you heard the president say that. so give us your perspective on whose version of the truth. >> i think this is why congress is so interested in talking with members of the team. it's because donald trump says one thing and clearly in the mueller report don mcgahn said another. and so congress needs to get down to the bottom of what the truth is. and donald thinks by lying he's making it go away when in fact he's making it worse. >> so you believe mcgahn here? >> i worked with mcgahn for a year, sat with him for a year in the meetings with senior staff every morning. he's a solid guy with clear integrity. there's nothing cloudy about his integrity. so what he said in the report i believe. the president has a problem with his credibility in this case. if you have to choose between don mcgahn and president donald trump on truth i would go with mcgahn. >> there you go right there. omarosa during the time you worked with him. are you expecting to be subpoenaed here? >> you know, it wouldn't surprise me. i made it very clear when i

talked to robert mueller's team about the things that concerned me including the two boxes of campaign e-mails and documents that the white house still has in their possession of mine. so i think that they'll be very interested in learning about the other things that the white house has done to kind of intercede in this investigation. >> talk a little bit more about that and what you expect them to ask you. what should they be asking you? >> well, i'm not welcoming it, believe me. my legal fees are high enough after being in the trump orbit for the last 15 years. but i think that they'll be curious to see where the inconsistencies in the report, part of the report that i'm in is redacted. so i'm not really sure about the ongoing investigation as it relates to my part. but i'm not welcoming it. >> but in that case how are you preparing or if at all? you're not welcoming it. and what are you expecting as far as the questioning? >> well, first of all, i have an incredible team who's advised me that if the president does in fact try to bar members of his senior staff from testifying by

saying executive privilege i think that that ship has left the dock a long time ago. once he allowed mcgahn to participate and many of us to participate in that investigation i think that he waived executive privilege. and so it's going to really come down to whether mcgahn actually wants to go on the hill and be helpful. >> are there worse things when it comes to this report that's going to -- as far as what's redacted, what's not redacted? >> i think i join the rest of america in saying we want to see the rest of the report, that we'd like to see the -- not the parts that have sensitive information but i think that the redactions need to be made clear. america's waited long enough to see what the 2 1/2-year investigation has taken place. but one of the things that i think is very clear in the parts that are not redacted is that donald trump was involved in things that were immoral, that were illegal, and were unethical. >> you made it clear this week that the president, it's obvious he's hiding something. but i also want to take you back

to something you said earlier this week about the trump team. we'll listen to it, remind our viewers and then we'll talk about it. >> i have this list of these very shocking proposals that would come up even when steve bannon was there and stephen miller. and they would just kind of keep them on the side. and whenever they needed to throw a hand grenade to just blow up the press or take over the front covers of the newspaper they would pull out one of these very shocking proposals. >> i want to hear more about this list, what's on it. when and how it's used. and do we expect to see more of it for 2020? >> early in the administration there was talks about separating children from their parent as a deterrent in the border fight. and i never believed that they would actually enact a policy like that. fast forward to it being on one of stephen miller's wish lists to actually coming true. what happened in the pentagon when the president announced that he was going to go after transgenders or block their funding. i mean, there is just this long list of things that were

discussed that we struck down that we thought would never, ever make light of day. and week after week anytime donald trump gets into hot water he just pulls out of this little bag of tricks to distract and to cause chaos. >> and is this list currently as far as you know, is it still -- is there stuff on the list that hasn't been used? >> thank god i left in december of last year. but i can only imagine because of all of the challenges that he's facing that this list has gotten longer. the one thing we should say is we shouldn't brie into it. we know that's his go-to thing, that he's going to throw a hand grenade anytime the spotlight focuses on him. as long as we not buy into this strategy that he's used to distract the american people from what's important right now, the importance is getting down to the truth. >> i also want to talk about those closest to the problem. you've got jared kushner. let's turn to him. something he had to say when it comes to downplaying russian interference in the 2016 election. let's listen. >> you look at what russia did, you know, buying some facebook

ads to try to sow dissent and do it, and it's a terrible thing. but i think the investigations and all of the speculation that's happened for the last two years has had a much harsher impact on democracy than a couple facebook ads. >> is this just a jared kushner perspective or is this something that's shared by others in the president's circle in the white house? >> that took my breath away. first of all, we know that russia was involved much more than just a couple of facebook ads. millions and millions of americans have seen that ad and it impacted the election. but let me tell you how the white house has really kind of ignored the threats of cybersecurity. tom bossert left weeks after i did. he was the head of cyber security for the white house and oversaw the guidance for this president. and this president has not replaced him. the highest-ranked adviser on cyber security, that position remains vacant. we have to be very, very concerned about this president's disregard for the clear and credible threats that we

continue to face from russia and other countries. >> we're talking about 100 pages in this report detailing the contacts between kremlin representatives and the trump campaign. >> and kushner just disregarded it as a couple of ads. >> we're running out of time but i've got to get this in. bernie sanders. talking about what he said earlier on the reaction, he gets booed. was that warranted at all? let's take a listen. >> for black women -- >> the black women will be an integral part of what our campaign and what our administration is about. okay? that means -- >> hold on. >> okay. >> you know, as somebody who -- i know i date myself a little bit, but i actually was at the march on washington with dr. king back in 1963. >> heckles and boos there. what was your reaction when you see him? >> it's just -- it continues to be his blind spot. i remember early on in 2016 when

you looked at his team they were all white men. and then they made a kind of correction. and they brought on members of his team like symone sanders and nina turner. but it continues to be his blind spot because there's a saying, you can't lead the people unless you love the people. and black women were not feeling the love, which is why in that room you saw the booing. he does not connect with african-american women because they don't believe that his desire to connect with them is authentic. >> yeah, that there at the forum we're talking about. we were talking during the break about beto o'rourke also kind of hedging and not really having a response. i wish we had more time as always to cover a lot more here but i appreciate the time that you've shared with us. >> thank you so much for having me. >> omarosa, thank you. sounding the alarm about russian interference. next, an ex-cia officer explains why the president didn't sound the alarm and why this is an impeachable offense. people tell me all the time i have the craziest job, the riskiest job. the consequences underwater can escalate quickly.

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the president is escalating his attacks on democrats and u.s. intelligence officials, accusing them of an attempted coup. my next guest disagrees, writing the president welcomed the russia attack and obstructed resulting investigations, an impeachable offense. joining me now is evan mcmullin, former cia operative, co-founder and executive director of stand-up republic. evan, welcome here. what's your take on the -- >> good to be with you. >> sure. what's your take on that? is it just scare tactics or should americans really be concerned about his comments? he's used the term numerous times in claiming the

investigation is the biggest scandal in political history. >> yeah, well, the president's now using the word coup to describe the mueller investigation and other efforts to hold him accountable, which are allowed by our constitution and in this situation needed. and i think what the president is doing by using that word is first of all trying to delegitimize constitutional efforts to hold him accountable. chiefly those that happened in congress. and he's trying to delegitimize them to dissuade the democrats in congress, especially the house, from conducting critical and justified oversight over his lawlessness. as he does that, there's a question of whether democrats will be dissuaded. whether they'll be discouraged. whether they'll start to think, well, maybe we shouldn't hold him accountable because it will hurt us in 2020. but i think that would be a mistake. the president represents, as i've written, a real threat to democracy and we've got to hold

him accountable. >> i want to ask but your nbc news think piece arguing the evidence revealed in mueller's report should begin impeachment proceedings because if the president isn't held accountable it will send the wrong message and "it's not an exaggeration to say that our freedom requires it." why is that? >> look, the way i see things is this. the president encouraged a foreign information warfare attack on the country that was intended to help him. he had an actual plan to benefit from it. the mueller report spells that out. and then since coming to office his campaign with the russian help was successful. he rose through that and became the president of the united states. and then he used his powers or attempted to use his powers to obstruct justice. so the combination of those tw things is an existential threat to our democracy. if you can welcome a foreign

attack on our country and then rise to the presidency and then use your powers to obstruct justice in the process and then you're just not held accountable because congress doesn't have the will to do it or for whatever reason, then what's to stop any other leader desiring to come to power in the united states from doing the same thing? and we just can't allow that. we have to check that. there have to be consequences. >> evan, do you think this is willful on the president's part or he doesn't realize what's happening here? >> no, i think he fully realized. certainly in 2016. we know from reading the mueller report that the trump campaign cheered about -- they were cheering, literally cheering when russia was attacking our democracy. >> but how about the president himself? you said the trump campaign. but how about the president himself? >> but him too. he had a plan. there's an episode in the mueller report where rick gailts, a senior campaign staffer, and trump are on the way to the airport in new york and trump took a call and got

off the call and told gates that wikileaks was going to release more hacked information, more information stolen from trump's opponent's campaign. at the time they were developing, they had a plan to exploit that, to capitalize on it for the benefit of the campaign. so absolutely he knew about it and he thought and they thought his campaign and the president thought they would benefit from it. so they had full awareness of what was happening and they intended to benefit from it. >> all right. and before i let you go, because we know about it now do we think this can be controlled in 2020? >> i think it can be controlled in 2020, but let me tell you, we have got to hold the president accountable for those actions both during the campaign and the lawlessness after, the obstruction after. if you don't hold him accountable now, i genuinely feel that what's to stop him from doing the same thing in 2020? what's to stop the russians from doing the same thing in 2020? i would argue the incentives

would be the reverse, would encourage them to do more of the same and even escalate those attacks. and so we have a chance to hold him accountable now. we've got to do it. >> we know how strongly you feel. and as you write after reading the mueller report you had a pit in your stomach. evan mcmullin, thank you so much. >> thank you. >> biden beware. the group that helped send aoc to washington could now be a big threat to joe biden's presidential bid. that's next. that's next. every day, visionaries are creating the future. ♪ so, every day, we put our latest technology and unrivaled network to work. ♪ the united states postal service makes more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. ♪ because the future only happens with people who really know how to deliver it.

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the president is very concerned if the radical democrats in the house get their way or if he -- or if somebody else is president in 2020 that all these economic gains -- we've had a boon, not doom and gloom. he's worried about that going away. that's part of why he'll get re-elected, and that's part of why when joe biden comes out, he thinks he's going to fight donald trump, but he has to fight the trump legacy. >> kellyanne conway trying to capitalize on the latest economic report and use it against democrats. let's bring in joe crowley and jonathan alder. let's start with you,

congressman. politico is out with a new article titled "democrats hunt for an economic argument to counter trump." so how big of a problem is this for democrats? >> i think there's no question we've seen a good economy, but it really was established during the last administration, during the obama administration, and it's continued. really, who's the economy working for? i think what democrats have to continue to focus on is really expanding opportunities for health care and better health care in this country, affordability of college, the expansion of the middle class, the things we've seen shrink in terms of opportunity in our country. so really a question, who is this economy working for? is it working for the average american for, quite frankly, the wealthiest 1%? >> when it comes to democrats, jonathan, where is that scene to exploit? you have these number, they're positive for the administration. what's the low-hanging fruit? is there some? >> well, i think people recognize the economy is not working for everybody, but the

main point politically is that donald trump is 20 points below where he should be given these economic metrics. he should be at about 59% approval rating, and he's at about 39. so if he's doing this badly when the economy's going well, if a year from now the economy starts dipping, he's going to be in a world of political hurt. on the other hand, his idea of, you know, running against what he calls radical democrats, that's a pretty good bid for re-election for him. democrats have to be careful they don't get stigmatized as radical and don't lead with their chins. they have to be smart about their progressive ideas in order to not give him ammunition. >> when it comes that, susan, you have contenders trying to stitch together policies that resonate. then you have the message eclipsed by all the of this investigation in washington. how much is at risk here for

democrats losing 2020 when it comes to that and their ongoing trump battles? >> i think what happens in washington kind of can stay in washington for the most part, and that shouldn't impede things like moving forward on impeachment against donald trump. if they accelerated that process, they can be done by the end of the year, and 2020 can be all about the issues they want to discuss. candidates on the trail, this is their time to appeal to voters. that's what they're supposed to do. they're supposed to react to different policy and other ideas that are coming out of washington and other states. so that's fine that's happening. it's time, though, that i think the democratic candidates decide which fights they want to fight and not necessarily get tripped up, as jonathan was saying, in taking the bait of what president trump does. >> and muddle their message there. congressman, you were primaried by the justice democrats group

and aoc, alexandria ocasio-cortez. the same group has taken a stand against one candidate for president, talking about joe biden. is there a problem for guys named joe? >> certainly hope not. it's a biblical name, so i hope not. i think, really, though trying to compare what happened in my congressional race and my loss -- and i say this with all humility. i was defeated by congresswoman ocasio-cortez, but it really was the replacement of one democrat with another democrat. what we need to be focusing on is how we win the heartland of america, how we win in the rust belt, in the bread basket of our country. those interface districts where democrats actually defeated republicans to win back the house of representatives. my loss, the loss of mr. capuano in boston, and other losses in democratic primaries didn't add a seat to the democratic caucus victory in november. i think that's what we need to focus on nationally as well. to take a microcosm of my district and apply it

nationally, i think, would be fool hardy. >> jonathan, i want to talk to you about what susan touched on. you have these democrats saying we can walk and chew gum at the same time. let's play that from our air yesterday. >> we have to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. we, yes, have to do the investigations and hearings and those kind of things, but we also have to prove to the american people, to our constituents that we know how to govern, that we know how to move this country forward. i think we've done that. >> so do voters want their democrats to walk and chew gum at the same time? is there a divide what rank and file wants versus leadership on the impeachment front? >> well, you know, there's a distinction between impeachment and just moving forward aggressively with investigations. either one can be done simultaneously with putting out important issues. you know, during watergate, when the impeachment committee was having its hearings, they were

passing important legislation at the same time in 1974. so if members of congress can't multitask, they shouldn't be there. i think the american people expects them to both perform their oversight functions and really get a record out there, really make sure the people like don mcgahn testify on the hill. so we see the movie, not just read the mooumueller book. that's very, very important. they also have to be raising these issues. >> got to leave it there. wish we had more time. all of you, thank you so much for your time. >> thank you. >> thanks. >> have a great afternoon. political storm clouds over washington. why this week could be mighty turbulent. that's next. turbulent. atth's next. oh! oh! ♪ ozempic®! ♪ (announcer) people with type 2 diabetes are excited about the potential of once-weekly ozempic®. in a study with ozempic®, a majority of adults lowered their blood sugar and reached an a1c of less than seven and maintained it. oh! under seven? and you may lose weight. in the same one-year study, adults lost on average up to 12 pounds.

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why did he do it? right now investigators are looking for the answers in the synagogue shooting in california. can you imagine sleepy joe, crazy bernie? >> on the offense, president trump takes a swing at the democratic front runners. which democrat is best to counter this in 2020? will he or won't he? why attorney general barr might not show up for his date at the house judiciary hearing this week. good day from msnbc world headquarters in new york. welcome to "weekends with alex wi witt." i'm frances rivera in for alex

witt. we begin with new details on the synagogue shooting in california. a rabbi whose finger was blown off by the gunman is out of surgery and talking about his experience. it happened on the last day of passover. a 19-year-old man walked into the synagogue and opened fire with an assault-style rifle. a child and two adults were wounded. the rabbi spoke to my colleagues at the "today" show. >> i turned around, and i'm face to face with this murderer terrorist, who was holding the rifle and looking sfratraight a me. >> neighbors gathered at a nearby church last night to offer prayers and support. nbc's cal perry joins us from outside the synagogue. what are the new details we're learning? >> reporter: well, we know police are really looking at two things. they're looking, of course, at the scene behind me in that synagogue. it's worth mentioning police have opened the main road behind

me. you'll see traffic passing. the gunman fled that synagogue and was picked up shortly thereafter by police, which is why some of these roads were shutdown. the other thing they're looking at is the online profile of the gunman. here in the community, people are trying to remember the woman, 60 years old, who was killed in that synagogue behind me. take a listen to what the rabbi said about her. >> she's a pioneering family member of our congregation. she's an activist. i started this congregation 35 years ago from ground up. there's nothing there. it was an empty lot. lori helped me secure the construction loan, and he's been a steadfast member, supporter, philanthropist. i'm just so heartbroken and saten saddened by this senseless killing. terror will not win. >> reporter: that was rabbi goldstein remembering lori, 60

years old and killed yesterday in this tragic shooting. authorities are saying, however, that it could have been far worse. in some of the online writings we've seen from the gunman, he compares what he wanted to carry out to the likes of the attack that we saw in new zealand last month where 50 people were massacres. we understand from authorities that the rifle of the gunman in yesterday's attack actually jammed during the attack. that may have been one of the reasons that he fled the building. another one of the reasons, an off-duty customs and border protection officer actually was able to engage the gunman, firing at his car as he left. one other thing worth mentioning, there was an arson attack about a month ago nearby in a nearby town here, frances. authorities say that in some of this online writing from the gunman, he's taking credit for that arson attack. so a history of violence, as it turns out. a history of hatred. >> certainly a lot of questions there that investigators will be pointing towards that suspect when they question him as well.

cal, thank you. now to politics and developing this hour, the justice department threatening to call off attorney general bill barr's testimony before the house judiciary committee thursday. that's word from a senior democratic aide for the committee, telling nbc the doj is taking issue with conditions being placed on the a.g. over his testimony. the committee wants to be able to go into executive session and ask about portions of the redacted mueller report. it also wants democratic and republican counsels to ask questions for 30 minutes each after all members finish their five-minute question period. a doj official tells nbc news things are still under discussion. barr is scheduled to testify wednesday before senate judiciary and thursday before house judiciary. earlier, senate judiciary member and 2020 presidential candidate amy klobuchar gave a preview of what to expect. >> when i asked you if it was obstruction to try to impede the integrity of a witness' testimony, you said that it was.

now in we've got all kinds of evidence of pardons being dangled out. we have evidence of the president's counsel being told to change his story, evidence of him being told to fire the special counsel. to me, this looks like obstruction of justice, which is exactly what barr had told me in those questions. so i view this as an opportunity to really push him on what obstruction of justice is. >> and senate judiciary chair lindsey graham made clear he is done litigating this. >> it's over for me. he didn't collude with the russians, obstruction of justice in this situation is absurd. i fought hard as hell to make sure mueller could do his job, introduce legislation to make sure he couldn't be fired. it's over. >> meanwhile, democrats are facing new questions on whether to begin impeachment proceedings as president trump stone walls subpoenas from congressional investigators. house oversight committee member jerry connolly discussing this new dilemma with me last hour.

>> i have to admit the mueller report is probably causing a lot of us to reassess our position on that subject. i'm not there yet, but i got to tell you the mueller report is profoundly disturbing and very damning. >> also new today, a poll on the democratic presidential nomination race. joe biden on top with 17%. bernie sanders with 11%. and pete buttigieg with 5%. kamala harris, beto o'rourke, and elizabeth warren earning 4%. to the white house now and nbc's hans nichols. what more it you tell us about this fight with barr's testimony? >> reporter: if barr doesn't testify, it's a clear escalation between this administration and the congress, at least the house controlled by democrats that wants to oversee them. now, it does seem like they're negotiating this through, but of those two requirements that house democrats are talking about, the idea of going into open and closed session and the second one having lawyers on both sides for 30 minutes sort of batting cleanup, you have to wonder which one is more

concerning to the attorney general, to the department of justice. republicans on the committee are clearly trying to block and tackle for the attorney general. here's a statement they have put out saying democrats have yet to prove their demands anything but abusive and illogical in light of the transparency and good faith the attorney general has shown our committee. at the same time, you have president trump doing that rally last night, some counterprogramming during the correspondents' dinner. the president repeated some of his familiar refrain on which he thinks is a hoax, a witch hunt. today he's on the golf course, out there with lindsey graham. here's what senator graham had to say earlier. >> i think the idea that this president obstructed justice is absurd. he turned over a million documents to the special counsel. almost every around him testified. i kaencan't think of one thing president trump did to stop mueller from doing his job. he never claimed executive privilege. from my point of view, i've

heard all i need to really know. i want to look and find out how all this happened. >> reporter: so it seems both sides are really digging in here. you have house republicans at least on the committee level, the staff level saying this is inproe inappropriate to ask for this. you have senators willing to block and tackle for the president. so we're having a process fight here, but behind it all are some very serious questions. frances? >> hans, thank you. joining me now, abigail tracy, writer for "vanity fair," and peter baker, msnbc political analyst. welcome. as we start with you, peter, based on this back and forth with barr's testimony, do you think, number one, barr will testify, and number two, if he does, had see going to do so in a meaningful sense? >> yeah, it's a great question. usually when these kinds of disputes come up on testimony, the two sides huff and puff and posture and so forth and end up

working something out, something both sides can more or less live with. but this is a different era. it's hard to see whether or not that's going to be the case this week. if he doesn't testify, if he does defy the house committee, that becomes a bigger deal. that's where it escalates this confrontation. remember just last week the president said he was going to defy all subpoenas by the house. not true. turns out they have given permission to their personnel security chief to go ahead and testify in one specific instance. but this is a big showdown right now between executive and legislative branches. >> so abigail, what are some of the big questions congress will ask barr? >> i think one of the things we can take away from the format that democrats are pushing for is this sort of 30 minutes of questioning that would be led by the committee's counsel for both the republicans and democrats. i think what that signals is they really want to put individuals out there who can kind of go toe to toe with barr in terms of some of the legal arguments that mueller presents in his report. also, kind of dig down deep into

this question of whether the president obstructed justice. obviously in his press conference before, we saw the release of the mueller report, barr said that the olc regulation say a sitting president cannot be indicted was not a factor. what you saw when you read through the report is mueller did note that as a factor in his decision not to say whether or not the president obstructed justice. i think what you would see is democrats using their counsels and themselves to open these lines of questioning around obstruction of justice, why barr and rosenstein sort of decided to make that determination on their own, and really dig into those legal arguments that mueller presents. >> peter, you touched on this a little bit, the white house vowing to fight the subpoenas, setting up this fight. you write about it in a recent article. so how do you actually see it playing out? and the implications here for both sides. >> well, look, i think from the president's point of view, there's nothing to be lost in seeming to defy the house.

he portrays them as partisans. he says it's part of the broader witch hunt that he's been talking about now for two years. and he likes to have an enemy. that's a convenient enemy for him. he says it's not a legitimate process, they're out to get me, out to impeach me. there's something to that, but the process has never been an objective process. that's the system. system is set up so the opposition party, if it's in charge of congress, has the ability to conduct oversight and hold the executive branch to account. we're going to see how this plays out. but it's -- you know, rather than moving on, neither side seem ready to let go of the mueller report and this question that we're going to be fighting out for weeks and months to come. >> former white house counsel don mcgahn one of the witnesses here that the white house doesn't want to see testifying. lindsey graham says he doesn't care what he said. how much does this help with the white house's case? >> i think one of the keys when we're talking about don mcgahn is the episodes that involved him. when we're looking at the

question of obstruction, a lot of the episodes involved him in directions that the president was seeking to give him, whether it was in terms of firing robert mueller or others that really kind of hit those three metrics of obstruction of justice as laid out by robert mueller in the report. so i think really trying to prevent don mcgahn from appearing before congress is certainly a priority of the white house, and it makes sense in terms of protecting and shielding the president from future questions. >> peter, to you, how do you see this playing out and helping the white house? >> i think don mcgahn is one of the most interesting characters here. the one who helped really bring down richard nixon was his white house counsel, john dean. is don mcgahn playing a similar role or not? he doesn't seem to be posturing himself or positioning himself as a whistleblower per se. on the same side, he's provided robert mueller with some of the most damning information that's in that report. so where does the come off? he looks like he's caught in the middle. he doesn't want to testify, according to people around him, yet it looks like he might have

to. if he does, how is he going to help or hurt the president? >> interesting take on "meet the press" earlier. andrea mitchell and former deputy attorney general sally yates. let's take a listen to that. >> i've been a prosecutor for nearly 30 years. i can tell you i've personally prosecuted obstruction cases on far, far less evidence than this. and yes, i believe if he were not the president of the united states, he would likely be indicted on obstruction. >> abigail, is that widespread belief -- keep in mind, sally yates was fired by the administration. >> yes, so i think you'll certainly have legal experts and lawyers who will argue that, you know, the president was acting within his authority as head of the executive branch in certain instances, such as the firing of james comey. getting back to this other bar you have to clear when it comes to obstruction in terms of corrupt intelligent and whether or not mueller proved that, but i think that when you're actually reading through the mueller report, the way in which mueller presented the arguments

for or against obstruction of justice really left open the door to the possibility of the president being indicted after he were to leave office. it's specifically noted in the report that the olc regulation that i mentioned earlier does not protect him once he leaves office. so i think there are arguments on both sides. but it really is a question as to whether the president's legal vulnerability is at its highest right now, particularly if there were to be a point, whether through impeachment or election, he were to leave. >> and this post-mueller report world, peter, you write about the president's changing response to that. how does he really view himself now? because he keeps talking about it. victor or victim? >> it's so interesting. he wants to be known as a victor, yet he can't help but portray himself as a victim. he airs his grievances at rallies, like he did last night in green bay, in press availabilities during the week. he sees himself as somebody who's been targeted unfairly by the deep state, by the dirty cops, as he calls them, by the fake news media. and you know, that seems to

resonate with a certain percentage of the population who see themselves as kind of put on by the system as well. it's interesting that a new york billionaire can position himself as an outsider who's been dissed by the establishment, but he has made that connection with a lot of people. that's an argument i think we'll hear a lot in the next 18 months. >> and see how long he's going to write it that way. abigail, peter, thank you so much. >> thank you. guaranteed basic income. only one presidential candidate has a plan to make that happen. we'll be talking to amber yang next. but first, breaking news. we've just learned that long-time republican senator richard lugar has died. he represented indiana in the senate from 1977 to 2013 and was known as a foreign policy leader who helped organize the destruction of thousands of nuclear weapons after the fall of the soviet union. richard lugar was 87 years old. you wouldn't accept an incomplete job

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battle for 2020. on the campaign trail, julian castro has five scheduled stops in new hampshire. beto o'rourke will attend a town hall in san francisco. cory booker holds a meet and greet in miami gardens, florida. kamala harris goes to cleveland to give a keynote for the democratic party. and in iowa are both eric

swalwell and our next guest, andrew yang, the founder and ceo of venture for america. andrew, i appreciate your being with us here. let's take a look at the latest poll in the democratic field. you have joe biden, bernie sanders there up on top. you didn't make this poll. you don't see your name there. so how are you going to work to get those numbers up? >> well, most americans are just tuning into the 2020 race. if you look at it, joe biden and bernie sanders have been in the public eye for decades. but i'm polling at 2% to 3% in various states and national polls around the country. it's just going up and up as more people find out about me and my campaign and the need for a universal basic income. >> that is kind of your signature platform. i want to look at your opponents here. joe biden, who changed the dynamic of this race. in his first interview since announcing, he addressed the fallout from his recent conversation with anita hill. let's take a listen.

>> i'm not going to judge whether or not it was appropriate, whether she thought it was sufficient, but i said privately what i've said publicly. i am sorry she was treated the way she was treated. i wish we could have figured out a better way to get this thing done. i did everything in my power to do what i thought was within the rules to be able to stop things. >> all right. do you think joe biden needs to apologize? >> you know, it's up to the american people. certainly i think the culture has changed a lot since the anita hill hearings in the '90s. to me, it would be appropriate for joe to acknowledge that and to acknowledge that maybe he'd act differently if it were his opportunity to do it over again. >> i want to talk to you about the numbers here. according to new data from crowd tangle and the hill, between march and april, your facebook following has grown 111%. so how are you going to translate that into voters in

real life here? >> well, we're seeing crowds around the country. i just had a rally in los angeles that drew 4,000 people. what people have to understand is that there are real human beings behind those facebook accounts, behind the instagram likes, and that they'll show up. we're having a town hall here in des moines later tonight. over 600 people have rsvp'd. the internet translates into real americans showing up to rallies and eventually the ballot box. >> i want to ask you about something you mentioned here, especially when it comes to this policy you're hoping will set you apart from the others. it's been central to your campaign. the universal basic income. so you have a plan here that would give every adult in the country a monthly payment of a thousand dollars. explain how that would work. >> well, right now we're until the midst of the greatest economic and technological transformation in our nation's history. it's called the fourth industrial revolution. artificial intelligence is about to come online in a way that's

going to disrupt many, many american jobs. we have to go to the companies that are the big winners in this revolution, which include amazon, google, facebook, uber and get some of those gains and return them to the american people in the form of a freedom dividend of a thousand dollars a month. we can completely afford this. our econo we just have to share the bounty from all these innovations with the american people. >> i know that is one of your platforms as well, protecting against automation. also, banning the penny, of all things. why that? >> well, it's not an important issue, but the fact is we're spending more than one cent producing each penny, which makes no sense f y, if you thin about it. it's also bad for the environment because we put copper into pennies we have to extract. it would just make everyone's life easier. >> i want to cover quite a few things here. you have to help me out by keeping your answers short so we can get through all of these. >> sure thing. >> it's going to be lightning round on some of these policies.

let's start off with do you support medicare for all? >> yes, i do. we need to move in that direction. >> okay. do you want to eliminate the electoral college? >> no, i'm for a proportional allocation of electors by state. if you got rid of the electoral college, it would center on urban areas. >> do you prefer a marginal tax increase or a wealth tax? >> we do need to make our taxes more progressive. i prefer a marginal tax rate that would be more in line with historical norms. >> especially in light of the shooting in southern california, do you support gun control legislation? >> yes, i do. i support common sense gun control legislation, gun safety legislation. we need to make it harder for people around the country to get weapons that can kill many americans in very short periods of time. >> do you think big tech needs to be broken up?

>> i think we need to solve the problems that big tech is now bringing to the forefront of our economy and our set. breaking up these companies may or may not be the solution in each case. you have to take it on a case by case basis. >> how would you handle the current situation at the border? >> we need to put more resources to work there. right now you have over a year wait to have an asylum hearing. we need to have more judges, more facilities, more caseworkers and more personnel down there. we have thousands of unfilled positions because we just can't hire and retain the right people. >> okay, and would you scale down when it comes to our military presence? would you scale that down around the world? >> we are spending hundreds of billions of dollars on the threats of yesteryear. i would try and channel those resources to the true threats of the 21st century, which include cybersecurity and nuclear proliferation and take some of the money we're spending on the older military infrastructure and channel them elsewhere. >> when it comes to climate change, how would you combat

that? >> well, i'm for a carbon fee in dividend. i'm for rejoining the paris accords. it's actually linked to the economic insecurity in our country. if you can't pay your bills, it's hard to be that gal ra nva around climate change. by putting a thousand zldollarsn americans' hands, we get closer to. >> do you want to increase the number of supreme court justices? >> there's no rule in the constitution about justices. it has been higher than nine in the past. i think that would be a good idea just to depoliticize it when someone steps down. >> do you support reparations for descendents of slaves? how do you propose it be carried out? >> there's a bill proposed in congress to study just that. i think it should move forward. i'm certainly for the moral case for reparations. >> all right. andrew yang, thank you. got those covered for us here. self-proclaimed numbers guy, the opposite of trump, the asian guy who likes math.

>> that's right, frances. >> i appreciate it. we'll look for those math hat, the caps we've been seeing all your supporters wear. thank you for your time. >> i almost wore one for this interview. >> i'm surprised you didn't. all right. thank you. >> i have one with me, but just for the rally. thanks, frances. >> you got it. from the asian girl who does not like math. i'll stick to the words for a living. thanks, andrew. all right. getting trump voters to flip. the new project that teaches democrats how to win over a certain segment of trump supporters. that's next. of trump supporters that's next. ♪

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two former senators who lost their bids for re-election last fall want to help their colleagues change the conversation in 2020. heidi heitkamp and joe donnelly both fell short in the efforts to get their senate seats in november, but both are from red states that president trump won big in 2016. well, this week they launched the one country project that's a joint initiative to help the democratic party win back rural voters. a demographic that left the struggle. joe donnelly joins me now.

i appreciate your time, sir. as we start, talk about some of the challenges you faced while running for re-election in indiana and trying to connect to voters as a democrat. what was different in 2018 from the last time you ran in 2012? >> well, sure. and i want to say quickly, though, i'm from indiana. we lost richard lugar today, the senator in the seat -- i followed him in that seat. an extraordinary american hero. i think all of america wants to thank his family for his contribution and for sharing him with us. >> yes, we did hear that in our breaking news. go ahead, sir. >> he was as good as it gets. but in regards to the challenges we face, you know, i outran president trump's numbers by 14 points in the last election. but it was a little bit shy. the problems we run into are that the message from washington, the message from the coasts is often the opposite of the message that rural communities are looking for. in rural communities, before

they care how much you know, things like broadband, things like making sure their children have skills so they can stay in those towns. when we talk about climate change, we actually talk to the farmers because there's no better environmentalists than them. their family lives on the land. it's incorporating our rural community and spending time with them. >> when you look at the numbers, the map doesn't look great for democrats. president trump won 60% of the nation's rural counties in 2016. hillary clinton won just 34%. you just mentioned the messaging and how there's a disconnect there when it comes to washington and what you see in your rural communities. but where did the party go wrong with rural voters outside of that? >> well, what happened is rural voters look and say, i want to

make sure the democrats share my values and are willing to show up. oft oftentimes we haven't talked about their values, like faith, which is important to rural voters. we shouldn't be shy about talking about it, about families, about country, and then being in places like racine and green bay and traverse city and john's town. we lost wisconsin by 22,000 votes. pennsylvania by 44,000. michigan by 11,000. if we had just put a little bit more effort in those places, i think you would have seen we would have won all of them. >> when you say effort, what did you mean in a tangible sense? as you're saying, the values are there, but do you think some of it could be caused by differences economically? what would you see when it comes to actually -- you know, what would you change or do over? >> well, first you have to show up. so in '16 in a lot of those places, we never showed up. when we talked, we didn't sit

and talk real issues with them. we presented to them our plan as opposed to listening to what they thought made sense, how we could incorporate their ideas. truly, people want to know that you want to listen to them. and we've missed the boat on that for a long time. >> when you say not showing up, are you talking about hillary clinton not showing up in those places? should she have made herself more visible? is that what you're alluding to? >> oh, i think it would have really helped. i think it would have helped in wisconsin, which was a razor's edge election. i think it would have helped in michigan and pennsylvania, when you're so close. if you come to those towns, if you stand with them, if you spend time with them, you'll have success there. like i said, i outran the presidential nominee by about 14, 15 points last time. time before that, by 17 points. but it's because we went to the rural communities every single year. >> your colleague heidi heitkamp told "time" magazine she thinks democrats could win more of the popular vote in 2020 and still

lose the electoral college. do you agree with that theory? >> oh, i do. i think we'll probably see increased numbers in places like california and in new york and in new jersey and others, but all of that increase with the electoral college system doesn't help you get any closer to a win. what you have to do is get another 15,000 in michigan. get another 25,000 in wisconsin. and we have to talk to those folks. >> i want to ask you how donald trump now is playing indiana. you have the mueller report where he's still talking about that. victim versus victor. how is that playing out? >> well, the mueller report has been put out, but in effect, a lot of the folks in my state have already factored all of that into their decisions. nothing new in their mind came out of that. what their decisions are based on are things like tariffs where our farmers are putting crops in the ground in just the next few weeks, and the selling price is less than it cost to put them in the ground.

on areas where they look at our rural community and we have county of county where population is dropping, where we're losing rural health care. those are the issues that are important. how do we strengthen and make health care more affordable? how do we make sure our kids, if they want to stay in our rural communities, can stay, that they don't have to go to the suburbs and the cities if they don't want to? >> sounds like somebody who could be seeing a run in their future. do we see a candidate joe donnelly any time soon? >> i'm actually in the process of trying to show up for work and pay my bills at the moment. so that's what i work on every day. >> sir, i am right there with you. we appreciate your time. hope you come back and join us if you change your mind. thank you. >> i sure will. thanks. shake-up at the nra, up next. what does the sudden departure of the organization's president mean in the battle for stronger gun restrictions in this country? country? every curve, every innovation, every feeling. a product of mastery.

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more now on the synagogue shooting in california. one woman was killed and a child and two adults injured when a gunman opened fire in poway. the 19-year-old suspect pulled his car over and surrendered shortly after the shooting. they say he had an assault-style rifle on the passenger seat. joining me now is robin thomas, executive director of the giffords law center to prevent gun violence. thank you for your time here. so what have your reflections been, and what have you been reflecting on most after this shooting? >> well, it's simply

devastating. i know i speak for so many americans when i say we are sick and tired of these devastating and terrible tragedies happening across the country. this clearly appears to be a hate crime by somebody who found it far too easy to find such a devastating weapon and to use it against innocent civilians. americans are fed up. this has been going on for far too long. over 80,000 americans have died since president trump took office, and yet we don't see any action being taken to make our country and our children and our schools safer. >> we know that police say the suspect left a trail of hateful chat rooms here. so how much of this type of incident is influenced by chat rooms, by political rhetoric, or access to weapons? how do you split that? >> i mean, i think it all adds up together when we don't take action on all fronts. this ep didemic in america has been going on for far too long. here in california, certainly steps have been taken, but until we take that action at the national level and really look

at comprehensive reform to resolving this problem, it's going to continue to happen. it's just simply far too easy for people who are bent on doing this kind of harm to get their hands on devastating weapons. >> it's happening way too much, the gun violence archive is tracking 59 gun-related incidents yesterday alone. you talk about comprehensive action here when it comes to this. you have the nra spending millions of dollars fighting gun regulation across the country. do you see the turmoil there? is it a possible in for that kind of reform and change? >> you know, in the last year, it's been really interesting to see how many problems the nra is facing from their legal problems. they're being investigated now by the new york attorney general. we filed litigation to push the fec to look at their campaign finance violations. their approval ratings are down. their finances are down. they clearly have some sort of internal turmoil happening, and i think we'll probably be finding out more about that in the coming days and weeks. clearly there is an organization

that no longer represents the will of the gun owners it claims to represent. it certainly does not represent the will of the american people. it appears to represent the will of its own executives and maybe the gun industry, and that's something that i think people are really fed up with. you're seeing it in their plummeting approval ratings, and politicians who stand by the nra are not doing well by it. >> there's one thing to have approval ratings. there's other things to see a legislative in. are you seeing that anywhere, where you can breakthrough? >> you know, we saw 67 new laws passed in 26 states after the tr tragedy at parkland last year. we're seeing a tremendous amount of progress at the state level. we now have a congress in place that is making gun violence prevention a priority, and bills are passing out of congress already since the new congress took seated in january. so we're certainly seeing progress being made. we know that's possible and imminent. looking to how we can change the rest of our federal government to step up to that and address this crisis is going to take

american people stepping up. >> when it comes to that and seeing common sense solutions for this and reform, how long will it take? we see shooting after shooting, and this conversation is happening over and over again. how long do you expect that to be? >> in states where you're seeing, you know, really strong gun regulations getting passed, you are seeing reductions in gun violence. so you do see change at the state level. if you're talking about the federal level, we have a really important election coming up next year in 2020. like the most recent election, the american people really stood up and elected candidates who were talking about the importance of gun safety and gun reform. so i think you're going to see that happen again in this next election cycle, and it's going to be really important that we see change come then. >> and if it does, i know we'll be talking to you then. robin thomas, thank you. >> thanks for having me. president trump and obama, the fear factor in dueling speeches. every day, visionaries are creating the future.

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♪ at first slice pizza lovers everywhere meet o, that's good! frozen pizza one third of our classic crust is made with cauliflower but that's not stopping anyone o, that's good! now to politics and two presidents taking the stage last night. president trump rallying supporters in wisconsin while in d.c. president obama made apparent jabs at his successor. >> there is always a struggle between hope and fear.

>> this witch hunt was never really just about me. it was always about stopping you -- >> leaders who -- who feed fear typically are also ones who avoid facts. fear induces closed mindedness. >> nothing is more dangerous than the democrats' crazy immigration agenda. >> a lot of our politics right now is people feeling as if their status and privileges are being taken away. >> the new agenda of the democrat party would drive our nation into economic and financial ruin very quickly. >> let's bring in policy stralist elena beverly who worked for the obama administration. don calloway and former and a half state gop chairwoman amy harkanian. welcome.

alaina, you worked under president obama. were you surprised to see him make seeming references to president trump? will. >> no. i think that he sees this moment as one where we need to call back a level of decency in politics. you know, we know that trump peddles in fear, in fear of the black and brown other, in fear of white privilege. i think that we are seeing that everyone has an obligation to stand up and call out the fake trump facts when we see them. it is not lost on the american public that trump went to wisconsin which is a severe battleground state which has decided presidential elections the last three cycles by very narrow margins. he went to wisconsin, trump did, and said i'm going to be loyal, when his policies don't bear out. where he's out there stoparking fear, where his policies are pushing dairy farmers in

wisconsin to the brink of extinction. i wasn't surprised to hear former president obama speak this way because i think all of us need to be calling it out. >> amy, what is the benefit the president sees in pushing fear? >> yoblg he is pushing fear -- i don't believe he is pushing fear. you have two personalities. you have president obama who is passively aggressively pushing fear, and then you have president trump who is very blunt and very honest with the way that he believes the country should be headed. and it's not including racism as your other guest is suggesting. >> all right. >> come on, amy -- can i jump in there? >> quickly. i've got to get don in, too. >> this would be a case study in jonathan metzler's book about how this is killing the american heartland. trump peddles fear every day, and everyone knows it. >> don, as these are coming here, fear or not? is the president right when he says our politics and what defines it right now have that

feeling of their status and privileges being taken away? >> yeah, absolutely. and to equalize makes some in privilege feel as though that they're losing privilege when, in fact, the world is just becoming a bit more equitable. kudos to your editors in the production room because that was a fantastic juxtaposition they put together to lead into this segment. we saw the defining characteristic of this president who is very small and very petty versus obama. and if he placed president obama -- even if you don't agree with his politics 100%, you have to place him in the context of great leaders. if you look at the churchills, the obamas, the bhutos, they thought of something big. they challenged. only americans but the world to lift our eyes and consider something bigger at all times. the antithesis is the defining characteristic of this president who tons think small and continues to be very small. the president is -- presidency

is a moral office. >> yeah. >> it sets the tone for the way americans think of and view ourselves, and he has made us small. >> quickly, last few seconds. ten seconds, amy, last word. >> sure. you have president obama who is very excellent at peddling identity politics with a smile. and that's something that i believe has caused a lot of this. >> okay. >> this current chaos that we have dealing with racism today. >> don, i have to interrupt. fair accusation there? and i got to go. >> i mean, amy knows i don't disagree. >> yeah. >> i think -- amy knows i don't agree. but i appreciate her counterpoints. >> i like your first comment. >> we've got to leave it at that. thank you so much. wish we could squeeze more in. thanks. >> all good. >> thank you. hillary clinton did an oral reading of the mueller report. will she read all 400 some-add pages? he read all 400 some-add pages? i wanted more from

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we're out of time here on "weekends with alex witt." alex will be back next week at this time. my friend, kendis gibson, picks it up now. you on all yours. >> thanks to you have. a great weekend, good day. i'm kendis gibbon at msnbc headquarters in new york. horror at a passover holiday celebration when a man opens fire in a synagogue near san diego. one person is dead, and three others are injured including the rabbi and yet another act of violence that appears to be motivated by hate. details of an open letter believed to have been left by the