♪ welcome back to "kasie dc." i'm kasie hunt. we're live every sunday from washington from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. eastern. tonight what can you say about another mass shooting at another house of worship in america. i'm joined live by the rabbi who survived the shooting. plus the attorney general threatens to skip an appearance in front of congress as his deputy turns heads, reportedly telling the president he could

land the plane on the mueller investigation. and later vice president joe biden enters the presidential race at the top of the polls and in fund-raising. but surprise not all the other 300 or so candidates are happy to see him. but first. yesterday a stranger entered a synagogue killing one person and injuring three more. it was six months ago that a stranger entered the tree of life synagogue in pittsburgh. it was one month ago a stranger entered the mosque in christchurch. four years ago when they entered the church in shacharleston. houses of worship welcome strangers but the 19-year-old white man in custody appears to have followed a playbook that has become far too familiar in other attacks on houses of

worship around the go globe. moments ago we heard remarkable comments from the rabbi of this congre con agree gags. >> i walk, two, three footsteps when i heard a bang. i thought someone fell or a table tipped over in the lobby here. i turn around and i see a sight that i -- undescribable. here is a young man standing with a rifle, pointing right at me. and i look at him, he had sunglasses on. i couldn't see his eyes. i couldn't see his soul. i froze. my first concern was what's with lori? where did that noise come from? what happened to lori? as soon as i did that, i took a look and more shots came running right at me. and i lifted up my hands.

i lost my index finger on this hand. after four hours of surgery yesterday, they're trying to save the finger on the left hand. i turn around and i saw the children playing in the banquet hall. i ran to gather them together. my granddaughter, 4 1/2 years old, sees her grandpa with a bleeding hand and sees me screaming and shouting get out. get out. she didn't deserve to see her grandfather like this. miraculously, the gun jammed. and in attendance at the synagog synagogue, there was a border patrol offduty agent, mr. jonathan morales, who recently discovered his jewish roots. he would travel 3 1/2 hours to pray with us at our temple. he felt great comradery here.

he felt this was his house of worsh worship. and many times i say jonathan you work for the border patrol, please arm yourself when you are here you never know when you need it. as soon as the gun jammed and as soon as the shouting was going on, he jumped up in pursuit. after the shooter left, this terrorist left, i turned around to assess the situation. and i walk into the lobby and i see lori laying on the floor unconscious. and her dear husband, dr. howard kaye, who's like a brother to me, is trying to resuscitate her. and he faints. and he's laying there on the floor next to his wife. and then the daughter, hannah, comes out screaming, daddy and mommy, what's going on? this is the most heart wrenching

sight i could have seen. i was frozen in time. i grabbed a prayer shawl, wrapped my arm, my fingers with it, that was just hanging, dangling, bleeding all over the place. my congregation was gathered outside of here. i said i have to do something. i got on a chair right there, and i looked at our congregation and i said, we are a jewish nation that will stand tall. we will not let anyone or anything take us down. terrorism like this will not take us down, but i do know that this is lori, this is her legacy. and her legacy will continue. i will never forget yesterday. my missing finger will forever scar me physically. but it's going to remind me how

vulnerable we are, and also how heroic each one of us can be. joining me now the rabbi goldstein, whose remarkable words you just saw. rabbi, thank you so much for coming on the program tonight. >> thank you for giving me the opportunity to tell the story that needs to be heard and told over and over again. >> you were speaking there about the -- what you lost in this shooting. your finger. but your life was spared. how is it that you think that you are alive, talking to us this evening? >> 33 years ago my wife and i decided to dedicate our life to the community. we decided that we were going to move here and we're going to build a community center and we started this whole organization here from scratch.

this was our life's mission. to be able to create a center that will do random acts of love and kindness to anyone that needs it. our doors are open to anyone and everyone. we established a preschool, a synagogue, a senior center, a friendship circle organization that helps children with special needs. that was our mission. and obviously our mission is not completed. god could have taken me yesterday, just 24 hours ago. the bullets came flying by me. and just a centimeter away. it could have been my heart. i could have been dead. but i was spared. and our dear friend lori took the direct hit. and in an active shooting, every moment is valuable. her direct hit must have prevented the little children and others from getting killed. it was a miracle yesterday that

the fatalities were so minimal where it could have been a far worse catastrophic measure. i stood there and i looked and saw the killer, the terrorist, and i couldn't figure out why would a person want to kill us for no reason. he writes he hates jews. such anti-semitism is something we cannot accept. it's almost six months to the date as the pittsburgh shooting. this must stop and america needs to wake up and say we cannot tolerate any anti-semitism or any type of bigotry wherever it is. >> why do you think it's happening? why is anti-semitism on the rise in america? >> my personal feeling is not

just what i think, but i look back on my teacher, the grand rabbi, and he explained that children need to be educated from a very young child about religious life. about spirituality, and he introduced a concept, which he was hoping would take track and that is introducing a moment of silence. that every morning in public school there used to be prayer and then they took that out. and the rabbi suggested how about a moment of silence. that every moment the school should pause for a moment and just let children think that there's more to life than just being and existing. every child has a mission. every person was created in this world in an image of god, regardless of your faith, and

young children need to be introduced that there is accountability to your action, there are rules and more to life than just existing. perhaps if we reconsider that and reintroduce a moment of silence, childrens will start understanding, childrens will introduce a children to a god, spirituality and think more about themselves and others. >> what do you think this killer wanted people to know about your community, you mentioned he wrote this manifesto that said he hated jewish people. bring us inside the doors of your synagogue and just tell us what would you like him to know about what your community is really all about? >> well, what he needs to know, and what everyone needs to know, hating jews is hating humanity. we are all humans. we're all created in god's

image. and having hate in your heart will only destroy. but he needs to know and anyone else bent on this type of action needs to know that the jewish nation is stronger than he can imagine. the jewish nation is alive. we've been alive for 3,000 years. and just a few days ago we were sitting at the passover table and talking about every generation they rise up against us. but god all mighty spares us. the reason is we are here to share love. we are here to make this world a better place. a spiritual dwelling that people can see far past the physicality of the world and need to know any of these type of terrorist attacks will not take us down but rather make us stronger. this coming weekend i appealed to all my colleagues, all my jewish brothers and sisters

throughout the world, go to your synagogue, your temple, no matter where it is, and show them we will not step down. we will stand tall. we will be there. i lost my finger yesterday, 24 hours ago, my index finger that will remain a scar on me forever. but it will also remind me not only how vulnerable we are, but how heroic we can be. when we were born god said the world cannot exist without you. each one of us have a mission in this world. i know what my mission is, my wife and i know what our mission is, to make light in this world. if everyone wakes up and asks what can i do today, what can i do to make the world a better place, the world will be a better place. so this young man, this 19-year-old teenager who had the audacity to breech our

synagogue, come to a house of love, house of prayer, house of companionship, where children are sitting up smiling, adults are praying to god. lori kaye was killed because she wanted to memorialize her mother who recently passed away. her daughter, hannah, drove from ucla to sit with her mother, she mourns her grandmother here she comes to synagogue and sees her mother being shot down just like in the days of the holocaust. this is not supposed to happen in 2019. her father, dr. howard kaye, like a brother to me, he's trying to resuscitate his wife and he fates and hannah comes running out, daddy and mommy, this is wrong. something has to be done. anti-semitism is a reality that needs to be fought. and it can only be fought with strength, with kindness, with light.

and that's what we got to do. one person at a time, talk about love, talk about bringing light into the world. a little bit of light pushes away a lot of darkness. a lot of light pushes away a lot of darkness. and every good deed does not go unnoticed. that will tip the scale in our favor. >> you're right this should not be happening in 2019. i know you said earlier you spoke with president trump in the wake of this tragedy. what did the president have to say to you and what are you asking him to do to try to make sure something like this never happens again? >> i was totally in awe and shock to receive a call from the white house. i thought it may have been a prank call to me, someone trying to lift up my spirits. and then our president took the phone, and i recognized it was really him. and i've never spoken to a president before.

he was so gracious and generous with his words. exceedingly comforting to me, my community. he spoke to me like a friend, like a buddy. i didn't realize i'm talking to the president of the united states of america. he was exceedingly kind and sensitive. we spoke for close to 15 minutes. i thought to myself, for the president of the united states of america to take time out of his day to talk to me about the issues at hand was just absolutely incredible and admirable. and we spoke about anti-semitism. and i asked him, mr. president, what are you doing about anti-semitism in the united states of america? and he was very generous in explaining that he has made it as a priority. he said, listen, i have a son-in-law who's jewish, a daughter that's jewish, i have grandchildren that are jewish.

i love israel, we're going to do whatever we can to protect the jewish people of united states of america and abroad. it was the highlight of the day after everything i've been through to hear from the president himself to be so comforting and consoling. it meant a lot to our community, meant a lot to me. and i also spoke to him about the concept of the moment of silence. and he was very, very taken by that concept of reintroducing to public schools a moment of silence. and i hope he will take it to the next level because we have -- something has to change. we have to do something about this. and we got to start it from early childhood education, because that's where it all starts. and if the families at home and in the schools teach to children to respect god and to respect each other as human beings and to be accountable for your actions, your thoughts, and your speech, perhaps children will

grow up with a lot clearer morals and ethics. >> rabbi goldstein, thank you for your time tonight. we appreciate hearing from you and our thoughts and prayers are, of course, with your congregation and those who were also wounded. so thank you. >> well, thank you so very much for giving me the opportunity to share my story. just like i will never forget this day, i'll never forget the kindness of the christians and the catholics and the protestants and all religions who really rallied around us. and it meant a lot to us to see in this generation such wonderful unity amongst all faiths to demonstrate how we'll win. god willing i'll heal well and others injured will heal well and we pray and hope for better times in the world. my panel is going to join us up live next.

we heard from the abrabbi on wh we need to do to address the challenges. in the 8:00 hour i'm going to joined by congressman scott peters who represents poway. and we'll dig into betsy woodru woodruff's reporting on the nra. and now the new york attorney general is issuing subpoenas. we're back after this. l is issus we're back after this. and outdoor allergens. like those from buddy. because stuffed animals are clearly no substitute for real ones. feel the clarity. and live claritin clear.

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welcome back to "kasie dc." with me here on set, politics reporter for the daily beast and msnbc contributor, betsy woodruff. msnbc analyst rick tyler. and senior vice president of programs for the anti-defamation league, george salem, he served in the administrations of presidents george w. bush, obama and trump. thank you all for being here. a very difficult day for the rabbi we just heard from. we're thinking of all of them, they've clearly been through a lot. he did say julia that he spoke with the president and seemed confident this president was combatting anti-semitism. however it's clear that since this president has taken office, a lot of the rhetoric around white supremacy has escalated.

what's your view of why this has changed? >> i think it's the president has rallied, the support he welcomes in his candidacy we saw it when his supporters went after jewish reporters. we saw it in the wake of charlottesville when he called people on both sides very fine people. 2017 was the largest rise on record since it's been tracked. 2017 happened to be the first year that trump was president. so it's right and proper that the president called rick gatab goldstein. and betsy also reported on how

this administration has closed and dismantled the unit within the department of homeland security that deals with home grown terrorism, white supremacist groups that engage in this violence. this is the second synagogue shooting in less than a year. i worry that we're going to be talking about these the same way -- a school shooting, synagogue shooting, a mosque shooting. this man, this shooter said that he was responsible for arson at a local mosque. you know, i just have to add on a personal note, i'm on book leave doing research about some of my family history in the russian empire. i discovered in the course of this that my great, great grandmother was killed in a synagogue exactly 100 years ago. the fact that it's happening in 2019 is not surprising. history is not linear, progress is not linear. it's cyclical, and we have to be on alert and we have to work all

the time to make sure these things don't happen. not just the jewish community but the black community, muslim community, lgbt community. unfortunately all these groups are experiencing a level of discrimination they thought was behind them. >> george, i want to get you to weigh in on her. julia mentioned the research you've been doing that underscores the fact this is a more significant problem now than it has been since -- when did you start tracking the data? what are you seeing. >> two points and she's spot on with the statistics. calendar year 2017 saw an increase in anti-semitic incidents across the country. this is the first time ever we saw an anti-semitic incident in every state, all 50 states. this was the largest increase

that we've seen in 40 years that the adl has been tracking anti-semitic incidents. the data the adl puts out every year, coupled with the data for '18, which is the spike in extremist related murders and homicide, where in calendar year '18 we saw 50 murders or homicides committed at the hand of extremist related incidents. the murder and homicides, increased in white nationalism and supremacy creates a volatile mix we've seen play out across the country. >> the president himself has stoked the flames. his closing at the 2016 presidential campaign looked like the protocols of the elders of zion set to film. he retweeted an image of hillary clinton with money and the star of data and claimed it was a sheriff's star or maybe a frozen

star. he is constantly playing footsie, at the least with these groups. it's great he took 15 minutes to call rabbi goldstein but he should be doing more. >> rick, do you agree with that? >> yes. he also said six months ago that there wasn't a problem. and kellyanne conway couldn't bring herself this morning, despite multiple attempts, to admit that it's a problem or have the president admit there's a problem. the statistics are clear. it's a problem. i want to say about rabbi goldstein, what a remarkable man. he has this -- it's a joyful defiance that he is standing up in the face of this, and he's rallying -- he literally lost a finger, may lose another finger and yet it's almost incidental. he has something to do and say,

this is an inconvenience for him. just an amazing man with an amazing message. >> betsy you've done some reporting and as i'm listening to rick listen to what the president is willing to say in public and what the rabbi said in private. when he's on the phone privately he often expresses that he's on their side but then you hear in public, it's quite different. and the policies that this administration is implementing is different than what the rabbi conveyed to him. >> the thing is to look at what the government is doing. we reported weeks ago that the department of homeland security disbanded a branch within its intelligence arm that focussed on the threat from domestic terrorism. it was a group of analysts who put together intelligence products shared with state and local law enforcement officials

p. they used these to assess threats that their communities might face from this type of attack that happened in california. it was within about the last year this branch was dispanded. dhs did it quietly. since my story came out, the department pushed back, released a lot of talking points claiming that everything is fine, there's no substantial change and this change doesn't matter. the truth is, according to sources in the department and close to it, people are concerned that dhs isn't doing what it should be doing to counter the threat of domestic terrorism. >> george, last word to you on this. what can we as a country do to counter this? >> some of the reporting that betsy brought up is spot on. it's important to understand the full context. the threat environment has changed. the threat of white supremacy and white nationalist is not an american problem it's a global problem. whether it's paris, pittsburgh

or poway we'll see white nationalism and supremacy rear its ugly head. while our government can do more, this is really a global problem that requires not just a whole of community but really a global set of leaders and commitments and communities coming together to find ways to eradicate extremism in our communities. >> thank you for coming on the show tonight, george. when we return, the warning lights are blinking again over russian interference in 2020. but other officials are saying don't lose track of china. r offg don't lose track of china.

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following the release of the mueller report, fbi director christopher wray is offering a stark new warning about russian meddling efforts ahead of the next presidential election. >> the fairly aggressive campaign we saw in 2016 and it's described in the special counsel's report and that has continued pretty much unabated. it's pretty much a 365 day a

year threat. that has absolutely continued. we recognize our add veryversare going to adapt and up their game. we're viewing 2018 as a dress rehearsal for the big show, 2020. let's compare and contrast that with president trump's senior adviser and son-in-law jared kushner who also characterized russian interference efforts this week. >> you look at what russia did, buying some facebook ads to try to sow dissent and do it, it's a terrible thing, but i think the investigations and all of the speculation that's happened for the last two years has had a much harsher impact on our democracy than a couple of facebook ads. >> his kmenlts came after the "new york times" reported in the months before kirstjen nielsen was forced to resign, she tried to prioritize preparing for russian interference in the 2020 election but white house chief

of staff mick mulvaney reportedly told her not to bring it up in front of the president. julia, you have a piece in gq called what putin has on trump. and i mean, what jared kushner there was kind of saying about what happened runs counter to everything we know in public to the fbi director, what mueller laid out in his report, and yet there is still this sort of refusal on the part of the president to acknowledge that this has all happened. in your mind, what is the explanation for that? >> it's also counter to what his -- i say his attorney general, bill barr said also in saying there was no collusion. he did say at that infamous press conference that, in fact, as the mueller report said, the intervention -- russian intervention in the 2016 election was systematic and sweeping. it contradicts intelligence

assessments. it contradicts pretty much everyone except for vladimir putin. you know, honestly i think it's that trump knows. trump was being briefed on the intelligence, especially after he got sworn in, that trump -- sorry, putin helped him win the election or at least tried very hard. and, you know, as that article in the "new york times" made clear and as we all know, president trump is extremely financial sense ti sensitive about the legitimacy of his victory. >> you're saying it's putin helped him? >> yes. that's a big one that a foreign adversary tried to tip the scales in his favor. i think he knows if he were to admit it, he undermines his own legitimacy as president and he, of course, can't do that. >> rick tyler, what i'm hearing t julia say is the president is willing to undermine national security for the sake of his

ego. >> there's no other way to put it. why defend putin? putin is smart, he's dogedly trained, he has a vision, he wants to undermine the united states, wants to see nato go away, those are his end games. this president has no vision which is why he believes impeachment talk, investigations, democrats, he thinks that's good for him because govern governing it turns out is hard. and having a vision of what can make people's lives better is hard, hard to implement. so this is his rational for reelection, the democrats hate me and therefore you have to protect me and put me in for four more years. i don't know who would be responsive to that message but that apparently is where we're going. >> the statements from the president and jared kushner are not just important because of the total divorce from factual

reality but because in practice, it's hard for governments to start new undertakings, to build new defenses without the buy in of the white house. and what we've heard from folks at dhs for forever now is their efforts to harden our defenses against meddling going into 2020 is not as effective as it should be because it's not a priority for the white house. the president doesn't want to talk about it. we have his senior adviser suggesting it was a couple facebook ads. there are a lot of people in dhs that care deeply about securing the election infrastructure and want to do everything they can to shore it up. without white house support it's hard to do -- >> and it's not just without support. mick mulvaney is actively blocking. >> those facebook ads were seen by millions and millions of people so they could be desigh sort of. in our next hour i'm joined

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ibd, certain hereditary cancer syndromes, or a family history of colon cancer. maybe i'll be at your door soon! ask your doctor if cologuard is right for you. covered by medicare and most major insurers. calls for stricter gun laws in the u.s. have been reignited following the synagogue shooting yesterday. police say the alleged gunman, 19-year-old john ernest, used an ar style assault rifle to kill one woman and injure three others. joining me now is jahana hayes, a member of the gun violence prevention task force. thank you for being here, congresswoman. >> thanks for having me tonight. . >> i'd like to start with the synagogue shooting. what was your reaction when you saw the news, and is there any

chance that there will be movement in the house of representatives on gun-related legislation in the wake of it? >> well, first of all i think like everyone else in this country my heart went out to the community in poway. the jewish community, and communities all over this country who have been experiencing this type of unnecessary violence. and i hesitated because i felt like my -- i'm going to have to send out another statement. i'm going to have to make another statement of thoughts and prayers and that's no longer enough for me. we have to do something more substantial than that. >> let's turn now to what we're expecting in congress coming up this week. i know everyone has been on a two-week easter recess as all of this has unfolded but quite a few things coming up, including william barr's expected testimony on the hill. do you need to hear any more information from barr, mueller or others to believe that this president needs to be impeached

or do you feel as though the evidence you've seen already tells you that he does? >> well, i was never one that was for impeachment. i was waiting for the mueller report but unfortunately like so many other people it gave more questions than answers. but i absolutely think we have investigative responsibilities as members of congress we have oversight responsibilities so i would like to hear more clarifying answers to some of those issues of obstruction. those 12 incidents that were outlined. we have to follow-up and see to make sure, first of all, that russia never or any foreign nation never interferes with our election but we don't fundamentally change the office of the presidency in what we allow anyone who occupies that office to do. >> what's your view on the obstruction that the white house has essentially thrown congress' way? this president has basically said we're not going to cooperate with any of your requests. is there a point at which you

feel that obstruction would -- should lead to opening impeachment hearings? >> well, i think what the president fails to realize is that congress is a separate but co-equal brand of government and we have oversight responsibilities. when i hear things like what came out of this report is more significant than watergate, then i think we have to do something. and the president if he is not guilty of anything should be open to saying, here's the information you need, talk to anybody you need to talk to so that we can make sure that our democracy has not been disrupted. >> there's a little bit of a disconnect between your leadership on capitol hill and nancy pelosi and some of these 2020 presidential candidates who are out on the trail on this question. kamala harris, elizabeth warren have both said we think impeachment inquiries should be opened. what's your view of how nancy pelosi is handling this? are you behind her? >> well, i think the wonderful

thing about democrats is there's so many perspectives, there's so many positions, and i think all of those people represent different people in this country. people are at different places what we need to do with impeachment. i can tell you there are no groups trying to rally support around their position, whether it's impeachment or not. people simply have their opinion and are waiting for it to play out. i am someone who does support the speaker's position that now is not the time to impeachment, but at the same time i'm not as a si fist either. we have responsibilities and if the evidence leads us in that direction we have a responsibility to do that. >> to stick with 2020 for a second. there's a record number of women candidates running in the democratic primary. but there's also this sense that some of the male candidates may be getting more media attention, doing better in the polling and nbc news wrote a story this week about how democratic voters are

concerned that a woman couldn't beat donald trump. do you think that's the case? >> that doesn't concern me. people said i couldn't win this race. i think we have to work hard, we have to convince the american people of the work we can do. i think we will have a robust primary season. and we will -- a nominee will emerge. it may be a woman, it may not be a woman, but the idea that a woman can't do it or the rules need to change based on gender is against everything we've talked about. we're saying we can do the same work as any person. i think the 2018 midterm elections proved that wrong. there were a record number of women who ran for office, first-time candidates in the house of representatives who all won their seats. so i think the climate and temperature of the country are shifting on things like women in leadership. >> do you think it's important for the democrats to have a woman on the ticket in 2020? >> i think when we look at the population of this country, it's

about time we had a woman on the ticket of the executive office. 50% of voters are women. there are so many women in our communities, so many women in jobs and part of our population. it's about time we had a woman in the highest office in the land. so yes, i do. >> all right. congresswoman jahana hayes thank you for your time tonight. i will see you on the hill this week. >> thanks so much for having me. >>, of course. when we continue infighting at the nra comes to a head. and join us on twitter and instagram at "kasie dc." and be sure to sign up for our pod casts. we'll be right back after this. . we'll be right back after this , claritin-d relieves 8, including sinus congestion and pressure. claritin-d relieves more.

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or home insight, to search for a new house within your budget. because, they really need their space. pnc - make today the day. democrat party, radical, left. they should change that too. call it officially the radical left democrat party. would drive our nation into economic and financial ruin very quickly. and they will take your guns away too, very quickly. >> president trump at his rally in green bay, wisconsin last night, picked wrap-up he left off at the nra convention on

friday. but yesterday, the group's president, oliver north, was ousted from his position after an internal power struggle with ceo wayne lapierre. the new york state attorney general announced that she's issued multiple subpoenas to the nra to investigate the group's seemingly tax exempt status. and on friday, maria butina, who inspired to infiltrate the nra was sentenced to 18 months in prison. daily beast politics reporter betsy woodruff has been doing some great reporting on the nra. she is back with me now. bet betsy, what is the extent of the problem at the nra right now? >> the problem is almost certainly bigger than we're currently aware. it's a little ironic that the president talked about the country facing economic and financial ruin when that is what the people leading the nra suggest their own organization may be on the precipice of. i have obtained a fundraising letter that wayne lapierre wrote a couple of months ago that the

nra may shut down, quote, very soon because of some of the financial and legal challenges that they are facing. these letters are often hyperbolic, but in this case, even given the hyperbole that you hear, it's going pretty far. >> pretty remarkable. >> in addition what we know are there are two camps within the nra. there is the wayne lapierre camp and the ollie north cam. ollie is obviously no longer there. the wayne lapierre has been pretty clear about what it views problem to be. they actually sued a pr firm that oliver north is connected with that has been working with them for decades. the court documents lay out fairly detailed concerns according to wayne lapierre's camp. what we also know is that ollie north has a number of allegations and concerns that he has raised to people on the board. i don't think it's the entire board, perhaps a small group within it. but we don't know exactly what those allegations are. we don't have the full detail of

what exact claims ollie north is presenting such a huge threat to the nra. it's unclear if that will become public given that he has now been ousted and the legal fight it's embroiled in against itself are likely to metastasize in the coming week. >> a potentially stunning fall for an organization that has been so at the center of vilified and et cetera. >> and what's weird about it too is the nra has long had a defensive crouch towards media as well as the democratic party and activists pushing for stricter gun laws. but in this case, the biggest problem facing the nra is one that is totally internal, totally self-created. >> it's its own fault. when we continue, the latest reporting on joe biden adds the field welcomes him to the race with open arms. and we'll have the kasie dvr. if you woke up this morning with too much history in your system from last night's performance by ron children now at the white house correspondents dinner, our correspondents watched the shows so you don't have to. so you don't have to

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joe biden announced his third run for president just on thursday. >> it seems like there is a biden comment that comes every 20 years. >> you can see the passion. you can see why he is rung. >> can joe biden evolve at this point to not be a loser like he was the last two times he ran. >> the problem with biden is he has started his campaign with an apology tour. >> do you think he owes anita hill or the american public an apology? >> he must show that he has learned from that period of time.

>> the politics of i'm sorry are difficult. >> president trump and joe biden are now sparring about who has more youthful energy. >> if you travel with joe biden, you won't think he is too old. >> president trump made it clear he is not about to cooperate any further with russia related investigations. >> look, if a court tells the president to comply with a subpoena, he is going to do it. >> democrats don't believe the obstruction case has been fully made. >> the most important thing is to hold this president accountable. >> i think the idea that this president obstructed justice is absurd. >> to me this looks like obstruction of justice. >> he knew from day one that he was innocent. >> is this the kind of conduct that we should expect from the president of the united states? >> if you're going let that be the standard of impeachment, then we'll have nobody serve. >> do you personally think impeachment should be considered? >> i think it should. >> would you welcome support from russia in your campaign? >> no. and i don't believe the trump campaign did. >> i personally prosecuted obstruction cases on far, far less evidence than this.

>> welcome to the second hour of "kasie dc." joining me on set politics reporter for the daily beast and msnbc contributor betsy woodruff. white house reporter for "the los angeles times". >> eli stokols, matt zapotosky. matt is the co-author of the introduction and commentary of "the post's" book version of "the mueller report". so you have to be on "the new york times" best-seller list, right? >> hope so. >> also with us director of strategic communications for the trump 2020 reelection campaign mark lauder. welcome all. in the wake of the mueller's release, president trump finds himself in the sort of fight he has seemed to relish for decades, back against the wall, throwing one counterpunch after another. this week the president called the investigation an attempted coup and overthrow of the united states government. he also vowed to fight all congressional subpoenas, setting the stage for a heated battle with house democrats in the run up to 2020. and if his rally last night in

wisconsin is any indication, he's likely to stay on the attack. >> the radical liberal democrats put all their hopes behind their collusion delusion, which has now been totally exposed to the world as a complete and total fraud. the greatest political hoax in american history. it really has been. so this was never really just about me. it was always about stopping you, the millions and millions of freedom loving citizens who rose up on that incredible november day. >> a new washington post/abc poll shows just 31% of americans think the mueller report cleared the president of wrongdoing, and 58% say he lied about matters the special counsel was investigating. but when it comes to

impeachment, just 37% are in favor of congress starting the process. that is a new low for this poll. take a look at that graphic there. that shows how support for and against impeachment has changed over the past months. so what, if anything, can move the needle? attorney general bill barr is set to testify before the house judiciary committee this week, although he is threatening not to over concerns with the hearing's format. even if he does appear, how much do democrats stand to gain? and could anything he reveal get nancy pelosi to budge? >> impeachment is one of the most divisive forces, paths that we could go down to in our country, but if the facts, the path fact finding takes us there, we have no choice. but we're not there yet. >> so i'm going to pick up on pelosi in a second. mark lauder, i'm sorry, this is becoming a repeated pattern with us, but i have to ask you, do you think there was an attempted

coup in america? >> when you look, you had actors in the highest levels of the department of justice, the fbi launching investigations, doing wiretaps on campaign operatives based on opposition -- >> not a campaign tap. fisa warrant. it's a completely different situation. >> they were still spying on campaign operatives based on opposition research that was provided to them by the democratic national committee and the hillary clinton campaign. >> it's a little hard to fight with you because the attorney general used the word spying, but i would say many people disagree with you, sir. >> we just found out last week from the former i believe it was the council of department of justice was talking about meetings he had heard about fbi agents that were secretly talking about putting listening devices into the white house and all of those kinds of things. that is trying to invoke the 25th amendment. it sounds like a coup. >> really? >> if you're trying to remove the president of the united states who is duly elected, if

they were doing those things to try to invoke the 25th amendment, that looks like you're trying to remove the president of the united states. >> betsy woodruff, what does your reporting on this tell us? does it support that? >> the reporting shows that during the 2016 election, very senior officials in the fbi came to believe that there could be potential counterintelligence risks because of the way russian operatives were targeting people on the campaign. we now know no question, it's a fact, it was russian-back state-backed efforts to interfere. >> russians spying and trying to influence. >> spying. now the word spying obviously has a lot of con tative ivive b. we know the fbi went to the fisa court and presented a case for opening and getting aughtization to surveil the campaign. we know they cited the dossier which many of the claims have not yet been corroborated.

but the dossier was cited in one portion of the evidence that they used to start that surveillance. people close to the fbi say that the surveillance would have happened regardless. the dossier was not a game-changer when it came to whether or not that surveillance. and again, it was authorized by a judge. it was legal. >> eli stokols, to get to the impeachment question here, i mean, the president clearly, whether we're talking about this coup language he is using or any of the other number of things that he said at his wisconsin rally last night, trying to rename the democrats i forget what radical kind of thing, he is taking the most divisive possible tact heading into 2020. nancy pelosi is seeming to say that part of why she deputy want to do impeachment hearings is because of how divisive they would be. which strategy comes out on top in your view? >> i don't know which strategy comes out on top. the president cranking it up to 11 in divisiveness in politics, that's nothing new to him. that's what he's always done and

he's done it to his own political benefit. we don't know. everybody is sort of trying to game out what would happen the democrats went towards starting impeachment proceedings. they're going to have a lot of hearings. they're not going to call it impeachment until, as nancy pelosi said, maybe they feel like they have no choice. but we don't know how that would play out. there is a world in which enough evidence comes forward. republicans in the senate block ultimately impeaching president trump. and it works out worse for republicans in the senate because of the evidence. we don't know exactly how it would go. the stakes are huge obviously going into a presidential election. i think the president, he's never been somebody whose been measured in his language. and he's asking the country now to -- he's holding up the top line conclusion of attorney general barr. he's saying no collusion, no obstruction, but he's also calling the entire 22-month investigation an attempted coup. mueller, who ran that investigation did not come to definitive conclusions. he is just passing the evidence to congress. so it doesn't necessarily seem

like a coup from the justice department, from bob mueller. >> certainly not robert mueller. >> but for the president politically to portray it that way and portray himself as the target of a political vendetta, that's something he has been doing for a long time and he is going to keep doing. >> he is. mark lauder, quickly, before we talk about rod rosenstein, you represent the campaign. would it help the campaign for democrats to launch impeachment hearings? >> i don't think it would. >> it's a yes or no question. >> it's a yes or no question, but it is divisive for our country. >> okay. >> and i think it is reserved by the founders from just those extreme circumstances. and i think a lot of people have said it doesn't rise to that. >> okay. all right. fair enough. there are also new questions about rod rosenstein's role in the russia investigation which of course he oversaw after jeff sessions recused himself. matco wrote a bombshell report this week in "the washington post" detailing the steps that

rosenstein took to save his job, that he suggested wearing a wire to secretly record the president. according to "the post," rosenstein made a teary-eyed plea to white house staff before holding a private phone call with the president in which he, quote, sought to diffuse the volatile situation and assured the president he was on his team. then rosenstein telling the president, quote, i give the investigation credibility, and, quote, i can land the plane. one senior administration official tells matt and his colleagues that the call ended with the president thinking that rosenstein was, quote, on the team after all. meanwhile, here's what the president had to say publicly following that "times" report about rosenstein offering to wear a wire. >> are you planning to fire rod rosenstein? >> i'm talking to him. we've had a good talk. he said he never said it. he said he doesn't believe it. he said he has a lot of respect for me.

and he was very nice, and we'll see. and he is a member of the trump administration in that sense. it's the justice department. i would certainly prefer not doing that. >> okay, matt, i don't even know where to start with this. there is so much here. i'm really most interested in this seeming character arc of rod rosenstein from the beginning where the reports are he is in these meetings, very concerned, offering to wear a wire. contradictory. some people say he was joking, but at the same time, the conversations overall were very serious. now all of the sudden you're reporting he is crying on the phone with white house staff? what happened to get him to that point? >> this was just like a super tense moment among many rod rosenstein has had in the arc of his career in the trump justice department. >> right. >> so "the times" reports this. this is getting close to maybe coup territory, you know, ousting the president with the 25th amendment, wearing a wire to secretly monitor him. so rosenstein's future is kind of in the balance. he gets summoned to the white

house to meet with john kelly, and he is extremely emotional, we're told. one person says he is teary-eyed. he is telling people now he disputes that after that happens, he sort of makes a general plea to john kelly, but he is not willing to discuss details of the story that's at issue. he wants to talk to trump. >> he wants to talk directly to the president. >> he gets on the phone with the president. and he says things that some people would view as problematic. he's supervising the investigation of president trump. he is giving him some broad assurances about that investigation, we're going to treat you fairly. he's also saying things like "i'm on your team." read one way he is part of the trump administration as trump just said, maybe not a problem. but when you look at a guy who is supervising the investigation of the president saying "i'm on your team," some people might say well, is that investigation really going to look at him hard? he says all these things, and president trump, as you just saw, is sort of left convinced. hiss status is sort of murky that whole weekend. i think this was a thursday or

friday. the weekend passes. he is still convinced he might have to go. plans are so -- he is so certain in his own mind that he is going to have to go that the justice department makes plans to get a successor in place that doesn't happen, though. the president is mollified. i think it's a couple of weeks later they finally meet, and he is cool, and everything kind of goes on as it was. >> why is rosenstein so concerned about the potential of being pushed out? because it's not that long, if my timeline is correct here, and please, do correct me if i don't have this right, if we're talking about the fall, rosenstein is already talking about volunteering to leave by february or march, trying to get out the door. what is so emotional that he is so concerned about getting kicked out right then? >> it's really mystifying. there is a number of things that he might be doing. one is protecting his own job, right? he is trying to stay in there. another is sort of protecting mueller. if he gets removed, what will happen to robert mueller's investigation. one person kind of familiar with his account said well, that's what he's trying to do here,

make sure nothing happens to mueller. but even now, you look at him each now, he gave a speech just last week and attacked the media, talked about being emotional. even now he is really trying to posit himself as a strong member of the trump team. and he is undeniably on the way out now. back then, yeah, there were kind of anonymous sources saying he is going to be out soon, he is going to be out soon. now a successor has been nominated and he is still saying things to posit himself as a member of the trump team. >> he is part of the squad. eli, quickly, before as we kind of wrap up here, which version do you think of this story is the right one? is rosenstein pleading for his job on trump's team, saying inappropriate things for the deputy attorney general to say, or is he simply going too far in an attempt to keep the system on the rails? it seems like you could read it either way. >> you could. we don't know. it's hard to read that story and know for sure. i think one of the things that president trump does is he puts

people in these sort of untenable positions. he forces these loyalty tests. he forces people to do things that don't look great, that they're not necessarily comfortable with, but they have to sort of choose. and if you're torn between trying to protect an investigation, save your job, or, you know -- these loyalty tests, he put jim comey in the same corner. comey ended up going in a different direct and he was fired. >> right. >> after seeing that, maybe that had some influence on what rosenstein was trying to do. i thought it was interesting that he said i don't want to go out in a tweet. i mean, it's hard to know how much of this is sort of saving face and saving the job versus trying to protect something bigger than yourself and your own job, but we don't know that. this is not the first and probably won't be the last time that donald trump forces somebody to sort of choose between loyalty to him and what may be on the surface, at least, appears to be protecting the principles of the justice department you're there to uphold. >> it's fascinating. great reporting, matt. matt, thank you. betsy woodruff, thanks to you as

well tonight. when we continue, democrats promised oversight when they took power, but will the white house stand in the way? plus, new reporting on the 2020 race. we're going to talk about joe biden's bid for president against donald trump. ashley parker put it as only she could in this week's "washington post" when she wrote two septuagenarian grandfathers sparred over who possesses more relative youthful vigor. "kasie dc" is back after this. feel the clarity of non-drowsy claritin and relief from symptoms caused by over 200 indoor and outdoor allergens. like those from buddy.

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biden did what no one was convinced that he might do this week by officially announcing his candidacy in 2020. i'd like to bring in our panel for this conversation. here with me on set, voto latino president maria teresa kumar. nbc national reporter josh lederman, and in pittsburgh, nbc news national political reporter mike memoli. mike, you the biden whisperer. i'm not sure exactly what you're introducing your title. i promise we'll work on coming up with something better. >> we'll come up with it. >> perfect. you've been covering biden for a really, really long time. and they've been sort of working out his message really ever since the end of 2016. take us through what's happened this weekend and what you're focusing on. >> well, kasie, we saw of course in that announcement video on thursday joe biden eager to take the fight directly to donald trump. but of course there is this historically large field of democratic candidates.

and i think joe biden's entry into the race is putting a new spotlight on that question of just how far, if at all is the democratic party moving to the left, and where is joe biden's place in that democratic party. let's remind everybody what joe biden said when i asked him about this just a few weeks ago. >> i was never labeled at a moderate. if you look at my record with the aclu, you look at my record with all of the traditional liberal organizations, i have never walked away from -- i'm not sure when everybody else came out and said they're for gay marriage. i'm not sure when everyone else came out and talked about a lot of things i talked about. the traditional judgments of whether or not you were, quote, a liberal was whether or not, what your positions on race were, on women, what your position on lgbt community, what your position on civil liberties. i'll stack my record on those things against anybody who has ever run, who is running now and ever will run.

i'm a biden democrat, man, and i'm proud of it. >> so you hear there, i'm an obama biden democrat and proud of it. what does it mean to be a biden democrat? we've of course -- in joe biden's case, there is certainly going to be some differences stylistically, and on a policy basis. for the vice president, this is as much about whether or not democrats are directly connecting with the type of middle class voters that joe biden considers fob his base. as i've been preparing for his launch of this candidacy, i keep going back at a time when i thought most democrats thought hillary clinton was about to be elected president in 2016. joe biden on the eve seemed to have warning for fellow democrats. take a listen on what he was saying on an election eve rally in 2016. >> god willing, we're going win this. there is a lot of people that are going to vote for donald trump. we got to figure out why. what is eating at them. some of it, some of it -- some of it will be unacceptable, but some of it will be about hard

truths about our country and about our economy. a lot of people do feel left out. that's the truth on both sides. >> i had a chance to ask the vice president about those comments just a few weeks later when i was a reporter for "the los angeles times" in an interview in his west wing office. he expanded on those comments. he said yes, he had a very deep concern while he supported the social gains, he moved towards equality on lgbt rights, women rights that democrats had been championing for years, it was his concern that democrats had taken their focus off speaking to the concerns, the anxieties of middle class, working class voters that he has appealed to his whole life. in fact, let me read a quote from that interview. joe biden saying i'm not saying we should be less progressive. we should be proud of where the hell we are and not yield an inch. but in the meantime, you can't eat equality, you know. so kasie, tomorrow in pittsburgh, we're going hear from joe biden have a chance to make that message for himself. he is going to be speaking at a

teamsters hall here, and those remarks are going to be focused on the economy and in his view how to rebuild the middle class. we got a preview of those remarks on thursday, the way he called it was economic dignity. of course, that venue was a high dollar fundraiser. this venue is going to be surrounded by union workers in a part of pennsylvania that is full of obama trump voters that he hopes to win back. >> very interesting locale. i remember being with hillary clinton there, and you really could feel that you were actually in the heart of trump country. really interesting to see whether or not joe biden can win bag that constituency. mike, that's fascinating. and maria teresa kumar, this quote, "you can't eat equality," you know, how does the democratic party grab well this? how is this received? biden is essentially acknowledging hey, we lost a lot of people in 2016, and it wasn't just for reasons of -- obviously there was a lot of hate mongering and not so dog whistles, but there is really

some there there. >> i think what the democrats -- i think the democrats have to recognize that one of the reasons we have this idea that you can't eat equality is because inequality is the breeder of economic injustice. and when you don't have parody when it comes to access to upward mobility, that is the crux of it. unfortunately, joe biden is not translating that appropriately. and when he is trying to identify himself as you're either an obama/biden person. that's 40 years of legislation he may not want to stand next to right now. i know joe for a long time. i have to say he is one of the few politicians that has really evolved in his thinking, and he does speak to this idea that there is a major grievance in this country, and the grievances that after the crash of 2000, 2008, not everybody made it like wall street did. >> right. >> we have to basically, we have to address those issues, but we have to do it through a lens that it's okay to want equality

and parity and economic thriving without having to sacrifice one or the other. >> josh, you and cara lee have some new reporting out this week. you mention the call to arms that biden has issued. you have a battle for the soul of america. but, you know, this sort of fight between whether it's you describe it as the progressives and the moderates or people who focus on economic inequality, or you need a new face, how you guys looking at how this primary is unfolding from that perspective? >> right. so this is really the fundamental question that democrats are facing throughout this primary. is this election about getting rid of trump at any cost, potentially at the expense of having a candidate who really moves the party where they want to go in the future, or is it going to be about embracing some of these much more progressive policies, empowering minorities who traditionally haven't had a fair shot at leadership, and purity when it comes to rejecting corporate influence on elections and the way democrats want to run elections, none of

which trump is going to do. trump is going to do whatever it takes for him to win. and biden entering the race is really forcing that issue to the forefront as democrats confront is this the person we want, or do we want someone that puts a new face on where the party wants to go long-term. >> it's a really good point. joining me now democratic senator bob casey of pennsylvania, who has endorsed joe biden for president. senator casey, it's great to have you on the program. welcome to "kasie dc." >> kasie, good to be with you, thank you. >> it's a great show for both of us. i want to start where the memo left off where joe biden is going to be in pittsburgh holding this rally. you ran in pennsylvania for reelection after trump had surprised a lot of people and won all these states across the midwest, including pennsylvania. what did you learn in your run that is applicable to this democratic primary? do you think joe biden is somebody who could win back pablo in the general election?

>> kasie, i think he could. and i think we have a number of democrats who could do that. but you've got to run a race like the one i ran in 2018, which was a race where we spoke directly to the middle class. and part of that is pointing out what the republicans did with that tax bill, that obscene tax bill that they rammed through which was a corporate giveaway and which gave away the store to the top 1% and did very little for the middle class. it was in my judgment a middle finger to the middle class. we should be very clear about why we have a lack of wage growth over the last -- not just the last ten years, but over the last couple of decades. the decline of unions and tax policy and other policies by republicans. so i think if he runs a campaign, i think he will, that focuses on the middle class, focuses on making sure that we're speaking directly to those voters, he'll be a very strong candidate in pennsylvania, as i

know he can. and we proved that last year. we pulled back a lot of trump voters in parts of the state where they were drifting away from us for years, and we got record numbers in philadelphia and pittsburgh and in the suburban communities. so it's entirely possible to have a very unifying message. . >> it's a great point. you dig up the numbers on your race, it's absolutely true you won over people who had voted for donald trump. how do you think a democratic presidential candidate does that when they're running specifically against donald trump? you have the luxury of not having trump on the same ballot. >> there is no question, president trump will do better in 2020 in pennsylvania than virtually any republican would have done in 2018. but i'll tell you, when you look at the concerns that most people have, most people are going to be focused again on economic issues. and i know in washington, everyone is saying oh, the unemployment rate is low. why would people be worried about that?

they're going to be focused on the economic issue called health care, their own health care security. and the republican party's official position now from the president all the way down is to support a lawsuit which will take health care away from 20 million people that got it and take it away from over 150 million people, the protections for 150 million americans. that's the official position of the republican party. and if we make that clear, make that a voting issue, we're going to do just fine. but in addition to pointing out this corporate agenda that sold out the middle class because they rammed through a tax bill for their friends, took away a deduction for union dues, i hope we talk than in the coming days, where workingmen and women used to have the deduction for their work expenses. the republicans took it away. so that's going to be a voting issue, i believe. >> do democrats need to focus on winning back white working class men as kind of the overarching

priority in this election? or do you think the path to victory is by mobilizing what the obama teamed called the coalition of the ascendant? >> kasie, i think you have to do two things. number one is as democrats, we've got to make sure that those in urban and suburban communities that have been the base of our party continue to be. that's what i did. i got a vote in philadelphia in this election in 2018 that was a higher percentage than even barack obama got. so we can maintain that core of our constituency, but i think joe biden can also speak to folks who may have drifted away from us. some of them might be termed blue collar democrats. i'm not sure whether they're male or female, but they're blue collar democrats. we can get them back i think at some of these economic issues. maybe not all of them, but i think enough to be not just competitive in these states, but i think we can win a loft these states that went the other way in 2016.

>> all right, senator bob casey of pennsylvania. always great to have you on the program. come back any time. >> thanks, kasie. >> maria thereeresa, the need tn back working class white voters. how does that play out? >> we can't leave any voters on the table and can't sacrifice this idea for one or the other, and that's what trump is going to try to do to us. the 2018 midterm election series a perfect example. not only did we have one in six voters be new young voters but we brought back a lot of suburban white women that voted for trump. we have to continue line. >> josh lederman, thank you for your reporting. mike pennbenoli, we'll work on nickname. which members of the trump administration can and can't be compelled to testify on the hill? more "kasie dc" in just a moment. e dc" in just a moment , we've earned.

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sees her mother being shot down just like in the days of the holocaust. this is not supposed to happen in 2019. this is wrong. somebody has to be done. anti-semitism is a reality that needs to be fought, and it can only be fought with strength, with kindness, with light. and that's what we got to do, one person at a time. talk about love, talk about

bringing light into the world. a little bit of light pushes away a lot of darkness. a lot of light will push away much darkness. and every good deed does not go unnoticed. and that will tilt the scale in our favor. >> a powerful message from our interview earlier with rabbi goldstein, who survived yesterday's shooting at his synagogue. i'm joined now by democratic congressman scott peters of california who represents the district where the shooting occurred. congressman peters, thank you so much for coming on tonight. >> you're welcome. thanks for having me. >> i'd like to start by asking you that very question that's inherent in the rabbi's remarks. what can we do about rising anti-semitism in this country? >> well, kasie, i want to start by saying, you know, we've talked about this as part of national trend of rising anti-semitism. poway lost a very important person tonight in lori kay, who was a mother, she was a wife. she was a congregant, and she was known as someone who did everything in her power for

other people, died actually trying to save the rabbi. so i want to acknowledge that loss. that's what really is hurting the community tonight. and our hearts and prayers are with her and the families of the victims who are recovering, thankfully. >> absolutely. >> what can we do? i think you can't argue with the rabbi about the power of love. i think one of the things that's happened over the past few years is that the rhetoric has taken on such an awful tone. american versus american. and this white supremism really has to be called out. we ought to treat this when it's combined with violence like terrorism. this really is terrorism. if we applied the same energy and applied the same resources and applied the same attention to this issue, as if it were terrorism, which it is, as we do with islamophobia or islamic extremism, this would get a lot more attention. and it deserves a lot more attention, frankly. this can't happen. >> what is your community doing

to try and protect religious institutions in the wake of this? i know there was some action on the part of the poway sheriff's department and others. why do you think this happened in the area where you lived and what can you do to try and make sure it doesn't happen again? >> well, i mean, i think it's going to happen anywhere. you've seen it happen all over the country. i think poway is a community you would not expect this to happen to. it's one of the safest cities in our region. san diego county is one of the safest areas in the country. this is someone who is deeply motived by hatred, by anti-semitism, by white supremacy. what can we do? first we need to call it out. second we need to cooperate with law enforcement to make sure when you see something like apparently this gentleman was involved with, posting these things on the internet, that you say something. i'm not sure we can catch everyone, but we ought to empower people. it's better to be safe than sorry. and then from a policy standpoint, you know, we do have to work on whether people who

are mentally ill like this young man, this disturbed hateful young man should have access to guns. and i think that's one of the issues in washington right now that is very important for us to deal with. >> can i ask you on that policy question as well, i absolutely take your point on that. but we've also seen some evidence that hatred, this kind of language, these kind of attitudes spreads like wildfire online. what can we do to fight back against that? what's the role of the congress? what's the role of the companies to try and make that, you know, less of a place where people can get these ideas? >> well, i think the president needs to speak out against white supremacy. i don't think he has done a good enough job of that. i think those of us in elected office need to do the same thing, whether state, local or federal. i think business leaders, you increasingly ought to look to them. i think folks in silicon valley see a lot of this traffic running through their platforms. we have to have a conversation about what we can do stop that and fight back against that.

everyone has a role in turning this conversation around. and certainly i think the rabbi points out that religious institutions and communities have a role too. we had a railroad ecumenical service last night at a presbyterian church with people of all faiths last night as a vigil to honor the people who -- to honor lori and the people who were shot. that's the kind of coming together we need throughout the country. we need to try to do it ahead of time as much as we can. and just to teach people that, you know, that it's important to love each other and care about each other, that americans shouldn't be fighting americans. we should be working together in community to solve our problems and to talk things through. >> congressman scott peters, thank you so much for being on the program tonight, and for honoring lori. >> you're welcome. thank you, kasie. >> when we return, checks and balances as democrats in congress and the white house fight over subpoenas. ubpoenas pay as much for insurance... as not safe drivers!

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that handles anything. that protects what's important. and reaches everywhere. this is beyond wifi. this is xfi. simple, easy, awesome. now the house goes and starts subpoenaing. they want to know every deal i've ever done. we're fighting all the subpoenas. look, these aren't like impartial people. >> the white house is setting up a protracted battle with congress, refusing to respond to subpoenas from multiple committees, and today nbc news reports that attorney general william barr is threatening not to testify before the house judiciary committee over the format of the hearing. marc lotter, does this

administration not believe that congress has an oversight role? >> i believe this administration believes the same thing that other previous administrations believe, which is i think jason chaffetz said it on one of the sunday showing this morning. when he was chairman of the oversight he sent dozens of subpoenas to the obama administration, never responded. treated them like a nuisance. >> but they never said they will fight all the subpoenas, no matter what. >> there is a very real issue here beyond just what the democrats in the congress want to investigate. if we get to a point where any elected official whether it's the governor or the president of the united states cannot have an honest conversation with his staff members because you're going to get hauled before congress and get forced to say -- >> we know they can't haul white house staffers in front of congress. that's protected by executive privilege. it's a different set of rules and the others that are being asked for. it's simply not the same. >> we're going to see how that works out. i think right now what we've seen is the democrats would rather investigate than legislate. and they'll have to have that fight. >> did you watch the benghazi

hearings? >> i watched a few of them, yeah. >> do you remember how many hours president clinton testified in the benghazi hearings? >> i don't remember that. >> it was a long time. >> 11 hours. >> and that was more than once. >> this clearly, eli, seems like a political effort to run out the clock as well, because every subpoena that they fight in court takes time. >> and there were people telling them even when the mueller probe was going on that they should have been taking more of an adversarial position and fighting the document requests for introduce. i think they're little bit emboldened by the top line findings of the report. the investigation is over with. they feel like the president can take that out to the country and say look, 22 months. no charges from any of this. now we just got to move beyond this. we've got to turn the page. and it's easier for him to make that case now. and he is not really concerned with the long-term implications about the separation of powers and the coequal branches of government. >> really? i'm so shocked to hear you say that. >> you're welcome for this earth-shattering news.

but he is just worried about moment to moment what is going to serve him best. he understands, i don't know if you put it this way, but he understands the constitution is not going defend itself. so with members of congress, the republicans controlling the senate, with the judiciary, he is going to take his chance. and he feels some softness, see going to keep pushing. he is going to see what he gets away, and perhaps the courts will compel some of these people to go and testify. but we don't know that yet. >> right. and the thing is is, maria, that is so different, normally this is a situation where you could actually find some bipartisanship on capitol hill. >> exactly. >> i've covered things where if you go -- it's one branch against the other. everybody kind of stands up. chuck grassley is king of doing this kind of thing. republicans on the hill are basically silent. >> normally you do have this back and forth negotiation, recognizing that you're trying to see how far you can move the line and where you're going to go. the administration says no way jose are we going to go ever to respond to the subpoena. and the republicans in many cases are complicit. and they're abdicating their duties why they were elected.

what this administration is trying to do is they're trying to push back the clock. they know if the courts get involved they're going to basically decide there is a new congress come 2021. and that's what they're trying to do. once this congress ends, you basically have to hit a massive reset and start all over. so they're trying to wear down the clock. the democrats really have to recognize that this is their duty. they have to keep charging forward. and hopefully, some republicans will see the light of day. this is your constitutional responsibility of having oversight. it's your job. >> it seems also to be a lot about 2020. >> absolutely. that's what it is. >> and it's not -- >> they're running out the clock for a new congress. >> entirely what it's about. marc lotter, thank you very much for being here. >> thank you. >> when we come back, lessons from history and a historian. like now your doctor may be talking to you about screening for colon cancer. luckily there's me, cologuard. the noninvasive test you use at home. it all starts when your doctor orders me. then it's as easy as get, go, gone.

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the worse under president trump. in an interview with the indianapolis monthly, he said, quote, the current president is not one who has demonstrated civility in his leadership. the use of his twitter account for other avenues have not been helpful. here is a historian at last night's correspondence dinner with a long view. >> i shutter at the savagery to which washington politics is descended. but we have also seen the wisdom of our constitution at work, an independent judiciary and a rejuvenated congress providing checks on executive power. we're being tested, fiercely tested, but i like to think that decency will prevail. >> historian ron churnow. when we return, what to watch for. when we return, what to wat for. oh...i needed this.

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i am a young, vibrant man. i look at joe. i don't know about him. >> if he looks young and vibrant compared to me, i should probably go home. >> that's an old joke. >> so are you. >> got to love it. before we go, let's talk what about you're watching in the week ahead. >> i'm looking at this incredible implosion of the nra, this idea that -- >> what a story, right? >> he's shocked that oliver north can double cross him. i think we should watch that

because that will have broad implications when it comes to the elections. >> after all the talk. >> on paper it is a quiet week at the white house, which is always scary. there is a meeting on tuesday, chuck and nancy are coming over to talk about infrastructure. i know infrastructure week is a running joke in washington. >> it is. >> there is limited time to legislate before it is all election all the time. nobody is expecting much, but you never know. the cameras will be in the oval. >> all right. could be interesting. that's going to do it for us tonight. we will be back with you next week from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. eastern. coming up next msnbc headliners takes on two democratic presidential candidates. joe biden and elizabeth warren. by the way, morning joe first look starts bright and early tomorrow morning at 4:00, so stick around for that. but for now from all of us here,

good night from washington. could joe biden have defeated donald trump. >> oh, i don't know. >> this is the great what-if. >> i say to democrats and republicans and independents alike, don't sell this country short, folks. >> joe biden has spent a lifetime as a political power player. >> he just had encyclopedic knowledge of foreign policy. >> one thing i know about joe biden, this is a guy i would take on a long patrol. >> he celebrated triumphs. >> i accept your nomination to run and serve with barack obama! >> weathered setbacks. >> you were on the verge of dying, weren't you? >> the hearings ca