we can do it. >> good to see you. reverendal sharpton, the host of politics nations weekends right here on msnbc. that's it for me. "deadline: white house" with nicole wallace starts right now. hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. is the country grab lg with an equivocation hangover. donald trump's denunciation of anti-semitism after a deadly shooting this weekend, comes amid a days long regurgitation of his response to charlottesville in 2017. saturday's attack at a synagogue in southern california is being investigated as a hate crime. one worshipper was killed, three others injured. the shooting combined with joe biden's bringing up president trump's description of fine

people on both sides of the charlottesville protests, is bringing a question to the rise of domestic terrorism in america. for the white house, the president and his team are on the offensive, drawing them into a debate over one of the lowest points of the trump presidency. one his senior advicer kellyanne conway now describes as near perfect. >> when president trump condemned racism, bigotry, evil, violence and called out neo-nazis, white supremacist, that is darn near perfection when you're calling out kkk, neo-nazis and you're saying there were people there that hadn't signed up for that -- >> you know president trump left enough -- >> all neo-nazis, all anti-christianity, all anti-semitism should be condemned, dead stop full. that's the perfect respond. >> except it wasn't. in fact, president trump repeatedly hedged in his

condemnation of the white supremacists who incited the violence in charlottesville by placing blame on both sides. this hour we're watching the candidate shining a spotlight on that rhetoric. vice president joe biden in pittsburgh, pennsylvania. he's taking the stage any minute for a campaign rally. we'll bring you any response to the president's anti-semitism and hate rhetoric. but first we're at the table with our favorite journalists and friends. i've wanted to talk to you about this, because we -- you've been around the table -- you've been here for the most conversations about the trauma of that charlottesville moment. not just for the country, not

just for communities of faith, but for the white house staff, the white house staff we now know was rocked by the president's response to charlottesville. some of them visibly so. his former chief of staff john kelly grimaced when the comments was made. we know in some of the reporting that came out, his former economic adviser gary cohen threatened to resign that day. i know on the phone i said who quits and they gave me the 400 reasons they couldn't. but to hear kellyanne conway call it perfect is stunning. >> it's disturbing. i'm going to go up to 30,000 feet on this. what we've seen is a rise of white nationalist, white supreme schism around the globe. this grievance that these white folks have, the genocide of the white, you know, race is what they talk about. and what trump does is

unfortunately he primes the pump. i believe that he invented that expression, remember that? but he -- his language increases the devotion to that community and what it is too what we saw because we fought the extremism from the state department, the flip side of the same coin, the grievance. so the white house staff, anybody who's rational and moral has to be depressed about that. >> let me back up because this provocative thing to say because it's backed up by the facts and the words of the white supremacists. here's david duke who says, after charlottesville. thank you, president trump, for your honesty and courage to tell the truth about charlottesville and condemn the leftist terrorists. and the significance of that, and this was i think one of todd's most powerful messages when he ran unsuccessful in

florida. i'm not calling you a racist, i'm saying the racists think you're with them. dog whistles have been a nasty underbelly of the republican party sadly for a long time. i have two hunting dogs, dog whistles are silent to the human ear. these are mega phones. >> yes, and we have seen this from president trump time and time again. whether it's charlottesville or weaponizing nfl players kneeling during the national anthem in protest of unarmed black men being killed by police officers in this country. he doesn't talk about or express the underlying reasons for these protests. instead he uses it to create and identify and caricature and drag into this battle any type or form of enemy. months ago he's a nationalist, right. and there are other folks in the

republican party saying when did nationalist become a bad word or dirty word. it's as if they don't take the time to understand these things. maybe you can argue it's fine in their free time. when things like charlottesville happen or we have multiple shootings at synagogues across the country because of white supremacist who are writing these crazy, dangerous manifestos that are spewing the same white supremacist ideology, they should take it seriously, rather than what president trump did, which is basically diminishing their presence, it's a small group of people with crazy values. >> this was his response after the tragedy in new zealand. it would seem that russia is the existential foreign adversary that's banging on our door, or many people believe they're in our house, and donald trump says inane things like he did in

helsinki, putin denied it and i believe him. and the otherwise inexplicable of russia, their invasion of afghanistan and whatnot. it would seem the domestic parallel is around these issues. here's christopher wray testifying to the threat to law enforcement of white national m nationalism. >> the dangers of white supremacist, or violent extremism is, of course, significant. we assess that it's a persistent, pervasive threat. >> do you see today white nationalism as a rising threat around the world? >> i don't really. i think it's a small group of people that have very, very serious problems. >> you can see chris wray, the current fbi director at odds now with president trump. and the same way dan coats, his cia director and other folks are

at odds with him and remain so with russia. >> yes. first of all russia and white nationalism in the united states are not unrelated. russia loves to fan this stuff. when anything like this happens, the troll bots are out in full force. there is any number of russian agents trying to fan this. they see this as the achille's heel of american life and see donald trump as an important agent in exacerbating that divide, which i think he has done through dog whistles or susingt cli in some cases. it's unclear to me whether he were sitting here or kellyanne conway were sitting here they would say helsinki or charlottesville were mistakes. it seems that ambiguity is something they're content to sit with. >> one of the things i talk

about in my book what the rus a russians did during the election. putin's advisers talk about them being the last white christian state. they support a lot of these folks on fortune and gab and these places with content they are generating themselves or under pseudonyms from russians who pretend to be americans who support white nationalist viewpoints. >> i think that also connects with a broader problem which is that of radicalization. we're seeing, very much like you see isis fighters become radicalized in the west by consuming information online, people are self-radicalizing in this country and carrying out these hateful attacks. it's all connected. it's connected to the russia stuff, the dog whistles that become megaphones. and over years law enforcement

has had a blah say fair attitudes towards white nationalist groups -- >> why is that? >> i think there was tremendous overreach during the clinton administration. there were a number of tragic events and there was a feeling that they had gone too far in targeting these groups and there was a tremendous pull back. we've done some reporting about this. in the current climate, there's zero appetite for ramping up enforcement or investigations or gathering intelligence about these groups. >> why? >> why do you think? it's politically unpalatable. >> how can that be? how can we be -- the mueller report in trumpland has been chalked up to total and complete exoneration. when the vast majority of it, donald trump can stand up and say never again on my watch. he may have been criminally exonerated, i'm not sure that sally yates would agree with that.

but the russians have not. this is where republicans take to their grave the most shame. >> it goes to legitimacy. there was that episode last week with kirstjen nielsen and the conversations with mick mulvaney how you cannot bring this issue to the president because he sees it as a threat to his legitim y legitimacy. that's where the conversation ends with him. he doesn't want to see his victory tainted in any way. so acknowledging that is to say that. >> exactly. i think -- i agree with that completely because he's not taking seriously this issue of election security and infrastructure that needs to be updated in this country. but it's the same thing we heard from him during the election in which he was very much in favor of abolishing the electoral college because it's a political stunned. >> it's rigged. >> now it's his favorite thing because that's what afforded him the white house. >> in some ways the tragic shooting in southern california and the president's more robust

than usual response to that is half the reason we're talking about it. but i would posit his response is because he's on his heels because joe biden launched the video reminding people of this response to charlottesville. >> i think that's right. that's a gauntlet thrown down. it remains to be seen whether that's going to be a winning strategy. i think people are asking is biden making a mistake going directly after trump rather than talking about the pocketbook issues that other democrats have embraced. but i think that clearly trump sees biden as a formidable opponent and this is a very, very strong card to lay down at this point in the race. >> one of the differences between republican and democratic primaries. republicans let the media kill them, democrats eat their own. do you want to think about that? jeb bush died because trump went after him. it's interesting to me. it would seem to me, if i were a

democrat, who knows how it's going to end up, but i'd be glad that the president is on the defensive, relitigating, calling perfect -- he did some fox interviews i think over the last 48 hours where he too described his response as perfect. this was not something the white house thought was perfect at the time. >> no. this is what he does, though. you can have the conversation about how he doesn't -- he never apologizes and all that. as far as biden goes, this is joe biden, it's an emotional issue for him, he is not a policy guy. this is not -- he's not going to get into the weeds on prescription drugs and that -- it's also an emotional issue for him. and as something -- i think there's a hunger among -- within the democratic base to go after trump because so few candidates have been willing to do that. >> he can say everyone recognizes i'm a working class guy from scranton, pennsylvania we posit that already. i can go after trump and that satisfies the base in a

fundamental way. people want that. yearning for that. >> that's what he was for obama. he had the horrible quote, clean, articulate black man. and obama in his way was like that's the guy, my running mate. because that makes it okay. if i can forgive joe biden being such a, you know -- >> someone said to me this weekend, a mom friend, you cover the democrats the way you parent, giving points for improvement, focussing on everybody's strengths and weaknesses. again, my position is known, i will vote for any candidate's automobile, whoever the democrats nominate, i hope they prevail. but why can't biden play this role and let the elections, which are many months away, determine if that's a winning strategy. they now have the president of the united states on his heel for a fifth news cycle over the worst moment of his presidency,

that seems like a good thing. >> but like you were saying earlier, i think democrats do enjoy eating their own. i think especially with the rise of progressive activist groups that want to push the party forward in a direction that they think is bold. jo joe biden is not their candidate. he represents a vision of america that is something we saw in the past. when i talk to swing voters across the country, especially obama voters, they're looking for a sense of normalcy. that's where joe biden can bill himself as a candidate that's comfortable, familiar, stable and you know what life will be like under his presidency. it'll be a challenge for him to meet the moment politically, especially with the grass roots activists that want more on policy. but that's one thing he can lean into where other candidates are the wild cards. >> welcome to 2019 where being stable is something you can put

in an add. go ahead and there were other candidates responding. >> if the midterms taught us anything this is a fired up democratic base that wants to get out and vote for democrats. we saw progressives win, moderates win, all kinds of democrats win, we saw women. i think let this thing play out and see how it goes. >> here's kamala harris responding to the events of the weekend. >> my home state of california just on saturday night made clear what was clear in charlottesville and what was clear at the tree of life synagogue. let's speak truth, racism, anti-semitism, sexism, homophobia are real in this country. let's speak that truth. and let us speak it in a way where we all agree that these are born out of hate. hate which has received new fuel in these last two years. let us all agree that whenever

and wherever we see those expressions of hate we must all stand up and speak out. let us agree that anyone who is ever the subject of that hate should never be made to fight alone. >> there it is. that's it too. >> you know what could be great about 2020. there would be a lot of truth telling that we haven't had. remember barack obama couldn't talk about racism. hillary clinton couldn't talk about sexism. these candidates can. it's out in the open. >> barack obama gave the best speech on race ever given -- >> but it was one speech and that was it. >> and it was an hour and 20 minutes long. that's talking about it one time with a kind of subtlety that he should have talked about it all the time. did you say the press does eats the democrats or doesn't. >> i think the democrats get to each other before the press gets to them. >> i think the press eats the

democrats because the press is overwhelmingly democratic as every poll has shown, whom best i love i cross. they look at every democratic candidates -- i remember the year bs i was covering democratic candidates, your health plan says you get a cut here -- that's how the democratic press devours the democrats. what does it matter anyway, there's a republican senate your bill isn't going to get passed anyway. >> i would say the democrats do a good job devouring each other. i wouldn't give the press all the credit in the world. the anti-hate message from kamala harris is a powerful message. but there's a lot of splintering elements that feels what suppressed classes in the democratic party feels marge la ja -- marginalized.

and there's a lot of infighting. we'll be right back. ahead, who's afraid of the big bad congressional staffer, apparently the attorney general is. he's balking at facing questions from staff attorneys on the judiciary committee. will he pull the plug on his testimony this week? >> and biden goes big while pete buttigieg sits down with our rev al sharpton to talk about home mow sexuality. all that coming up. all that coming up my information getting out. why's that? [bird speaking] my social is 8- 7- 5 dash okay, i see. [bird laughing] somebody thinks it's hilarious. free social security alerts from discover.

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nearly 30 years i can tell you i personally prosecuted obstruction cases on far less evidence than this. and yes, i believe if he were not the president of the united states he would likely be indicted on obstruction. >> that coming from a woman who served as the acting attorney general at the beginning of trump's presidency. it's assessments like these that the house judiciary committee will likely want to pose to the current attorney general bill barr if they get the chance. justice officials telling the committee barr may withdraw from his testimony this thursday due to the questioning. they want house attorneys to ask questions for 30 minutes, and they want to go to executive session where they can ask about redacted sections of mueller report's. a spokesperson said, the attorney general agreed to appear before congress. members of congress should be

the one doing the questioning. judiciary chairman jerry nadler threatening a subpoena. >> it's not up to the attorney general to tell the committee how to conduct its business. we will decide the most effective way of asking questions and that's what our decision is. we told him we expect him to show up on thursday and we'll conduct the inquiry as we said we would. if he doesn't show up we'll have to go to subpoenas. >> this comes on top of other officials, including don mcghan, being told by the white house not to comply with subpoenas they receive for their testimony. let's add to the conversation, harry litman and betsy woodruff. harry, my question for you, if it's good enough for dr. christine blasey ford why is it good enough for the attorney general? >> totally. it's not just dr. ford. it's been done this way dozens of times, including watergate. it's not the provens of the courts or the department of justice to tell congress how it

should conduct things. it looks bad of barr to be making a stink about this. we're talking about the most consequential decision that the department of justice has made since at least the saturday night massacre and what barr decided in his counter man of mueller has not been explained to the public. and his decision to do it or not, depending on whether they play by the schoolyard rules that he now discerns, you know, it's really beyond the pale. it won't last. he could try to fight a subpoena battle and have some time stalled. but the overall justification for not coming forward and explaining this huge decision that has, you know, changed everything in the mueller report and the current posture of things, it's just a bad look for the attorney general, let me put it that way. >> harry, tell me what sally yates means if he were anybody else -- she's prosecuted cases

on obstruction with less than what robert mueller had on president trump. the hush money scheme where donald trump is named as individual one, the same is true, people in that role in an illegal hush money scheme would be prosecuted. these are two crimes donald trump is isolated from. >> this is debatable. of course, it matters that yates was the acting attorney general, but what matters more she was a 30 year prosecutor. when the first came out, the structure of mueller's decision confused people. but when you dig into the evidence you will not find a prosecutor out there, and you'll find dozens on the other side that says, of course, if the president tells white house counsel to fire mueller and then to lie about it, of course, if he tries to get a private citizen to curtail the

investigation, it is textbook obstruction. i haven't heard on the other side any kind of debate on the merits. it's just basically a fact that any prosecutor will, i think, affirm at this point and no one has not. >> betsy, the questioning of bill barr seems to me to be potentially explosive in light of all that we've learned since that original four-page letter. there have been news accounts in "the washington post" and the "new york times" and other places that mueller's investigators were not happy with the four-page summary that william barr put out. in the barr letter it's abundantly clear he made a decision, not that robert mueller couldn't but that he wouldn't. robert mueller releasing in the report that we read many days -- i think a couple weeks later, that if he could have exonerated him from criminal conduct he would have, but he didn't. it would seem there's a lot of lines of questioning. i would want to know if mueller had any thoughts about the

letter, about the prespin press conference. it seems this testimony could open new avenues of potential investigation. >> of course. and house judiciary committee democrats are bursting at the seams with questions that they want to pose to the attorney general. part of the reason that there is a push on the committee to make barr answer questions from lawyers who work for the committee and not just members -- conversations that i've had with folks close to this, the sense that i've gotten is they like to point back to previous testimonies by administration officials, in particular to matt whitaker's testimony earlier this year. there were complaints that whitaker answered questions slowly, restated questions. complaints about him sort of running through those five minute windows of time by taking drinks of water and taking quite a long time to answer questions. there was frustration about that

comportment in that hearing and part of the reason that judiciary committee democrats want barr to answer questions from the lawyers for a longer period of time is so that he won't potentially have the whitaker option of slow walking his answers to questions so they can get more information out of him. generally speaking when people who run departments in the federal government go in for these committee hearing there's usually not a lawyer there. as harry pointed out, though, there is abundant precedent for this type of questioning happening. but there would be lawyers asking questions for longer periods of time, and don't have an interest in going viral on cspan clips. >> there may be a moment about to go viral on v cpan in pennsylvania. where joe biden has taken the stage. let's listen. >> the backbone of this nation.

i also came here because quite frankly folks, if i'm going to be able to beat donald trump in 2020, it's going to happen here. it's going to happen here in western pennsylvania, with your help. with your help we're going to be able to do that. >> we want joe! we want joe! >> thank you. well, with your help, with your help, i think we're going to be able to do that. we're going to be able to do it in pennsylvania, western pennsylvania, northeast pennsylvania, places are lately we've had a little bit of a struggle. but the truth of the matter is, i think we're coming back. so please, please go to joebiden.com. there are three basic reasons why i'm running for president of the united states. the first is to restore the soul of the nation.

and the second is to rebuild the backbone of this nation. and the third is to unify this nation. we do better when we act as one america. today, today i want to speak about the second of these three, and that's rebuilding the backbone of america. and that is, we have time -- all my time in public life i've gotten involved, i've been referred to as middle class joe. it's not always a compliment. it's usually that not i'm sophisticated. but the fact of the matter is i'm sophisticated about why, how, and who built this country. let me say this simply and clearly. i mean this. the country wasn't built by wall street bankers, ceo and hedge fund makers. it was built by you. it was built by the great middle class. and the american middle class is built by unions, by you. look, folks, that's the story of

america. when ordinary people from neighborhoods like yours and mine where you grew up and went out and did extraordinary things. that's what happened. when i look out at the crowd, i see people from my neighborhood. i mean it. i see people with physical courage and brains. i see people who have busted their backs their whole lives to care for their families. i see people like the millions of people across this nation who get up every day, go out, work like the devil to raise their family, pay their taxes, volunteer in the community to make this country work. i see people who understood that being middle class is not a number. it's a value set. it's being able to send your kid to a park where you know they're going to come home safely. it's being able to own your own home and not just rent it. it's sending your kid to a good school and if they do well they

can go to trade school, college or beyond. it's about being able to take care of your mom when your dad passes and hoping your kids never have to take care of you because you earned a solid and decent retirement. that's middle class. that's not asking a lot. >> we want joe! we want joe! we want joe! we want joe! >> everybody knows it. the middle class is hurting. it's hurting now. 53% of the folks in america don't think their children are going to have the same standard of living they had. to the best of my knowledge, that's the first time that's happened in a long, long, long time. the stock market is roaring, but you don't feel it. there are $2 trillion tax cut last year, did you feel it? did you get anything from it? of course, not. of course, not. all of it went to the folks at

the top and corporations that pay no taxes. the number of corporations that pay no taxes now has doubled since that. look, guys, this is not good. what's happened here has happened for a lot of different reasons. but for me one of them stands out. the basic bargain that used to exist, the republicans and democrats used to agree to has been broken. you contribute to the enterprise of the welfare you live in, you share. if the enterprise had a hard time, everyone took a hit. but that bargain has been bro n broken. now the only people benefitting when a company does well are the ceos and shareholders. the people at the top. and the only people that get hurt when the company has hard times is the workers. it's a one way street. gm, i worked like the devil to see to it that gm stayed alive

in the white house. union workers took cuts in their future and their pensions to get gm working, to keep it alive. the taxpayers bailed them out. they paid back and paid back with interest, but what happened? the ceos and the executives did quite well. and the second they hit hard times, what did they do? they closed plants. they announced they're going to layoff or transfer 14,000 workers. they also got that last year over $192 million in tax breaks. they could have given everyone they laid off severance pay if they had to. could have given everyone. they did nothing. they bought back their stock, raised their benefits, raised their salary, announced they were going to build their new truck in mexico. fol folks, folks, look i just did a

rally for the commercial workers in boston. 31,000 workers went on strike to protect their wages, health care benefits and retirement benefits. was stop and shop in trouble? no no. their parent company made $2 billion the year before. $2 billion. what did they do? they were going to decide, notwithstanding that, they were going to buy back their stock and try to cut wages or freeze wages for their people. now here, upmc, one of the largest employers in the state. i think people have to understand it, you understand it. the sciu has engaged one of the most important organizeizing fittings in this country. folks, what was 200 years ago in steel mills and coal mines is true today in our big hospital systems. today the same is happening in

big hospital systems. it's going to take a strong union to get justice for health care workers. upmc, stop the union busting. stop. stop trying to keep your workers unorganized. i want you to know workers, i am with you, i have your back and when i am president i will fight like the devil to make sure you are not blocked. unions are not blocked unfairly by this. it's economically wrong. and it's morally wrong. >> joe biden's first rally. an interesting message on the economy that caught our ears here. we saw your tweets. we're coming back. this message caught our ear, though. the stock market is roaring, but you don't feel it. this seems to be elizabeth warren and bernie sanders impact on this field about income inequality. i remember two years ago when

they were first talking about it and it was sort of everywhere. it seems that -- and they may end up being the nominees. but one of their contributions to this conversation is everyone has to start by addressing that this economy does not work for anybody but the people at the top. >> i think you hear elizabeth warren talk about it. shareholder capitalism as exacerbating inequality. that's why you see lots of democrats embracing this message that a roaring stock market does not mean a great economy. we are seeing wages rising in a way that they have not been in the current economy. that's something we don't talk about that much but wages are going in a way we haven't seen for a decade. so it's going to be interesting for the democratic candidates to talk about the economy given that for people at the top it's going well and we are seeing modest gains in wages. >> i'm not a political consultant and i never have been.

when i talk to real voters, especially places like canton, ohio, who supported trump in 2016, this came up in the midterms and i've heard now. these folks talking about how they're still living paycheck-to-paycheck to make ends meet. they said the economy feels like it's moving in the right direction but i don't feel it personally. that can be a winning message for any democratic candidate to unify people based on this idea that the system is not rigged against you, it's what president trump did with the gop tax law that you thought you were going to benefit from. >> it's not partisan either. the beauty of that message for democrats and a primary republican against trump, it's not a partisan message. it's about bamboozling these voters. the voters he ran on are the ones joe biden is talking to right now. >> his problem i think one place

he's vulnerable is he confuses wall street for the economy. the stock market is way up. that doesn't help the voters in western pennsylvania. >> doesn't help the voters in staten island. >> if you look at pennsylvania, though. mrs. clinton, secretary clinton, lost pennsylvania by 40,000 votes, right. now are there 40,000 disenfranchised people in western people that can make it up? absolutely. but if philadelphia 100,000 fewer african-american voters voted in 2016 than in 2012. the question is is it easier to make up in philadelphia or getting the white voters in western pennsylvania or is biden the guy that can get both? >> also donald trump is the first republican to win pennsylvania since 1988. it's not like he's following this pattern of behavior we've seen from republicans. it's important to think about

who was the most strategic to get but donald trump was almost a flook in many ways. >> pennsylvania, michigan, wyomin wisconsin, those are the three states if you talk to both sides. donald trump's people, democrats, pennsylvania and michigan are in a better place for democrats now. wisconsin is more of a jump ball there's a reason donald trump was there saturday night. >> but the dairy farmers are mad at him now. >> yes. >> i spent a lot of time with two-time obama voters who voted for trump in wisconsin, erie, pa, and michigan. i think to your question about who do you go for, the democratic nominee has to go for both. i don't think the democratic policy is going to tolerate this viv section of the base. i think the democratic party is going to demand someone that can go to every corner. >> that's the strength for biden. >> i think, the way he started his campaign with that video and the message we heard a little

bit of today suggests that he's going to endeavor to do both, as i assume they all will. i want to play what he said on the story we led with. >> before i begin, what i want to do is i want to take a moment, quite frankly, to reflect on something that happened here in the state not long ago. as a matter of fact, very resently. reflect on the anti-semitic attack that took place this weekend in poway synagogue in california, one dead, three injured. but we saw hate in charlottesville, saw it again in pittsburgh at the tree of life synagogue, the attack, the deadliest in american history on a jewish community. we are reminded again we are in a battle. we are in a battle for america's soul, i really believe that. and we have to restore it. >> i just cannot imagine having this election this year and not talking about the soul of a

country led by a man who is an admitted and self-described sexual assaulter, a man who sees african nations as bleep hole countries and a person who yesterday had one of his top advisers describe his response to charlottesville as near perfection. to think that the soul of the country isn't on the ballot in two years is to not understand the bigness of this choice. >> yes. again, that is joe biden's biggest strength. he is seen as a candidate who -- he's not the vivsection candidate. he's someone -- sorry i wasn't going to use that word again. he was seen as the candidate who can reach back to the democratic past and step -- he has the stature to stand above certainly a lot of the smaller issues that people are fighting over. hate is a unifying issue. anti-hate is a unifying issue, especially in the democratic part and that is what donald trump is on his heels about. >> i think to rick's point you

need to think about where your gains can be. one of the big stories of 2018 and the midterms, i think, was really engaging and turning out voters. he talked about a soul of the country moment. in 2018, to me the soul of the country race was happening in florida where you had ron desantis, the famous quote you talked about from andrew gillum. he had a little bit of package but a compelling candidate. you thought if this guy can't win here and desantis pulls it out -- i think the soul of america is very much up for grabs right now. in some ways i think this can be a powerful and compelling way to roll out the campaign and make everybody feel good about themselves but i wouldn't bank on it. >> i'm going to do this, you're my friends. it's very american president meets the ideas lab. it's american president, fight the fights that need to be

fought. i agree with you, i think the soul of the country was on the ballot two years ago and soul lost, trump won. but i think you have to go to the ideas labs, come up with policies, democratic voters are hungry for policies. if they understand one thing about trump there's no policies. >> they're not. the candidate with the most robust policy agenda stuck in the middle or bottom end of the back. >> are you talking about elizabeth warren? >> yes. definitely elizabeth warren. >> but she's in the conversation. >> she's absolutely in the conversation. >> and she should be in the conversation. but the idea that the soul of the country was on the ballot two years ago and lost has to be part of the trauma that the democrats go into this one feeling. >> they'll coaless around issues. medicare for all, they're going to sign up for that.

nobody cares the deductible. i have to agree with you the soul of the nation was on the ballot last time and it lost. these guys want to win elections. and how do i get to 270, how do i get two out of three states. maybe the way to do that is talk about values and not policy. >> and pete buttigieg is trying it too. >> i think how to achieve those values, with specific policy plans and proposals is something i think elizabeth warren is good at. i was at houston last week saw her last week, she blew the candidates out of the water. even more so the candidates of color speaking to an entire room of people of color. elizabeth warren knew how to say these are our values and these are the things you've been left behind on and this is what i'm going to do about it. people don't just want you to make them feel good but make them feel good with specifics so they can latch onto you.

>> she's done both. her growth seems to be -- she always had the ideas. i read her book when she came on "the view" and i was an unsuccessful host -- >> you were totally successful. >> what she's gained -- i think she's one of the most skilled communicators in the field. there's something about the way she talks. i think that's why she was the first in the field to call for trump's impeachment. no one is going to question whether or not she has the policies. she now can sort of lead this field around messages and around where the party sort of -- she can do head and heart. >> i think she's trying to also thread the needle on the issues of identity versus overall empowerment and upliftment. if you look at her college plan, for example, it disproportionately benefits african-american because of the

pattern of lending but it's a program that anybody at that income level can benefit from. to me that seems like a deft way to make sure that you're speaking to a really important part of the base while also creating a program that lots of other people can get behind and benefit from. i think you're seeing can any politics there. >> that's the challenge in 2020 but always making people feel see, especially people who feel left behind, that's something that donald trump did in 2016. and then we heard a little bit of that with joe biden now, saying i see you, i see the people doing x work or y things. that's something that's like a small -- >> i don't think it's small. i think it's big. >> look, this goes back to the soul of the country on the ballot thing. let's be honest. donald trump was on the ballot and hillary clinton were on the ballot. these are people not without package and serious emotional charges attached to them, which

muddles any conversation of the soul here. it's going to be different this time. donald trump will be there but someone else will be there. >> there's an authenticity of wonkiness, the fact she's talking about policy and talking about it in a serious way. that's a contrast with the resident of the oval office. >> we're going to continue to listen to joe biden. we'll go back to him as we watch the kickoff of his 2020 campaign. meanwhile, after the break, mayor pete seeking the rev's advice on getting black voters and confronting homophobia in the faith community. that's next. g homophobia in the faith community. that's next.

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looch holes for multi millionaires. warren buffett said it best, he should not pay a lower tax rate than his secretary. that's because of capital gains. it's wrong. i'm going to change that so millionaires and billionaires don't pay lower taxes than firefighters, teachers and go on and on. we need to reward work in this country, not just wealth. >> that was a message hillary clinton made forcefully, she made effectively. but i'm listening to biden wondering if he will make it more credibly, and after two years of trump, if people will believe him. >> he has the authenticity to make it. his whole career, as he said and he has to tell you all the time, he's a middle class joe. he stands for that in a way she couldn't really persuade people she did. for her it was an intellectual argument. for him it's an emotional argument. in this time and place talking

about inequality, it has resonance with people and he has permission to talk about it. >> him calling hitchself middle class joe works in his favor. it will be interesting to see how other contenders in 2020 tie into his racial inequality messages. it's his first kickoff speech and he will have to figure that out. i think it is because he was vr vice president for our first black president and he will be held to a higher standard to articulately speak to these issues and maybe understand better than most the inequalities tied to the economy. >> on the wake of sort of a period where voters have felt quite disenfranchised by the elite politically, and bottom line in terms of billionaires, joe biden been in politics for

decades. it's not like middle class joe is coming out of the plants or anything. >> he doesn't have a helicopter? >> no, he doesn't. >> i wanted to cover this other story today because it intrigued me mayor pete buttigieg sitting down with our own brent al to talk about building support for himself in the african-american community but specifically talk to the rev about homophobia in the black church. smart, interesting? what do you think? >> i think it's a really important issue, right. one thing we really don't talk about is how there really is a difference and tremendous amount of daylight in terms of the social conservatism of communities of color within the democratic coalition. as opposed to the kind of white liberal base. pete buttigieg is doing really well with educated white liberals. i think what he has to do is

persuade people of color, he has to persuade women, other -- marginalized groups that he's going to be a fighter and fight for them. he's a guy that is a consultant, comes from the technocratic wing of the party. i think his playing ben folds on the piano to warm up before a speaking thing, it goes over really well with a lot of the upper middle class white guys i follow on twitter. but it's not going -- >> yeah. >> a lot of points in harlem. great "new york times" story a couple weeks back about mayor pete as a storyteller, mayor pete as a narrator for the new democratic party. here's comments from today -- >> coming from a racially diverse community, what has enabled me to build bridges at home is simply present who i am and validate advice from the reverend along the same lines.

if people know what's in your heart and know what you're about and they see results, then i believe you can reach anyone. >> it is the right message, but is he -- i wonder how ventive the targeted audience is for the message? >> it's unclear what the targeted audience is for the message. i don't think he's checking a box. that would be cynical. >> i don't either. >> we have a sense, but we don't know what they talked about. >> the rev will tell us. >> the rev will tell us. he's on our payroll. but it's part of a long squurny he journey and he seemed to comport himself really well. >> the question is it's the right message but is he the right messenger? and what happened in the past is it incorporates the people. >> i didn't mean is he the right message for home phonio.

of course he is. >> i mean the values message, any candidate can absorb the values message he already has. he articulates it beautifully but he may not be the person carrying it to the finish line. >> i love mayor pete. do democrats love mayor pete? >> i heard a lot of democrats on the campaign trail who say they like mayor pete. i say clearly you love bourque or kamala, who is your second choice. mayor pete's name is the first name to come up and a lot of people will say surprisingly mayor pete or randomly mayor pete. even they are surprised at how much they are really liking this human who was relatively unknown to the national stage until a few weeks ago but has really sort of taken off. i think just to the way he speaks had refreshing to a lot of people because it doesn't seem inauthentic or political calculus behind it. it seems like he's having a conversation, intellectual

discussion with someone bouncing ideas back and forth. that doesn't mean he will always get it right but he's authentic in the way he's a critical thinker and that's a strong contrast to what a lot of people experienced lately. >> and the contrast thing is very, very important. the democratic party has a long tradition of embracing youthful, energetic, incredibly smart leaders who could take the part r party in any direction. the contrast with trump is perfect. >> super. >> road scholar, served in the military, clearly devout christian. there are just so many -- >> et cetera, et cetera. >> layer upon layer of things. >> okay, there was a great message in "the atlantic" that posted about awe then 'tis and mayor pete's gift is really good at coming off authentic and

making it look like he's not trying so far, but it's really a form of authenticity. where donald trump supporters say he comes off real to me where he knows they lie all the time. again, it's part of a kabuki he seems to have down in the democratic party. >> the kabuki will go on. we're out of time. thank you for harry and betsy who we lost earlier in the house of representatives. "mpt daily" starts now. >> hi, nicolle. if it's monday biden takes on president trump head on. good evening, i'm steve kornacki in new york in for chuck todd. welcome to "mpt daily." we've got a big show tonight. at this hour we're in the midst of a major dispute between the justice department and democrats on the house judiciary committee