at coming off authentic and making it look like he's not trying so far, but it's really a form of authenticity. where donald trump supporters say he comes off real to me where he knows they lie all the time. again, it's part of a kabuki he seems to have down in the democratic party. >> the kabuki will go on. we're out of time. thank you for harry and betsy who we lost earlier in the house of representatives. "mpt daily" starts now. >> hi, nicolle. if it's monday biden takes on president trump head on. good evening, i'm steve kornacki in new york in for chuck todd. welcome to "mpt daily." we've got a big show tonight. at this hour we're in the midst of a major dispute between the justice department and democrats

on the house judiciary committee over the terms of attorney general william barr's public testimony on the mueller report that was supposed to happen later this week. justice department officials saying he will not appear based on how democrats want to conduct that hearing. i'm going to speak to a top democrat on the committee about how they plan to respond. that is coming up in just a moment. we begin tonight however with the rise of white national violence and its inevitable collision with 2020 politics. right now just moments ago joe biden just finished a speech in pittsburgh. he launched his candidacy last week with the words charlottesville, virginia. wrapped up another speech as a 2020 candidate and you heard a reference to that as they are doubling down on white nationalist rally in charlottesville, one calling

those words darned near perfection. all of this coming in the wake of another tragic shooting over the weekend where a gunman killed one congregant and also shooting a rabbi who thankfully survived. you will hear more from him in a moment. biden just finished up his formal campaign speech out there in pittsburgh. this one was focused on the economy but here's how he launched the rally and it's moments ago in front of a firefighters union in pittsburgh. >> before i begin, what i want to do is i want to take a moment quite frankly to reflect on something that happened here in the state not long ago. as a matter of fact, very recently. it reflects on the anti-semitic attack that took place this weekend in poway synagogue in california. one dead, three injured. but, folks, we saw hate in charlottesville, we saw it again in pittsburgh at the tree of life synagogue in the attack of the deadliest american history on a jewish community and we're

reminded again that we are in a battle, we are in battle for america's soul. i really believe that. and we have to restore it. >> that was how he opened the rally. here's how he wrapped it up just moments ago. >> everybody knows who donald trump is. and i believe -- i believe in hope they know who we are. we have to let them know who we are. we democrats, we independents who have the same view have to choose hope over fear, unity over division. and more importantly, truth over lies. truth over lies. >> and from pittsburgh i'm joined by nbc national political reporter mike memoli. he is the guy on the biden beat for us. also with me, "new york magazine" national correspondent, msnbc political analyst and former clinton adviser zerlina maxwell and rodney chen, the policy director

of the rodney campaign in 2012 and adviser to the rubio campaign in 2016. thank you all for being with us. mike, who's in that rally and still in the room, let me get to you first, mike. there were two themes here it seemed to me, one, the clips of national unity the other the heart of the speech an economic message. this idea he said of restoring the soul of america. we heard that in the campaign launched last week. how much are we going to be hearing that from biden from this point forward versus that economic message? >> i think we're going to continue to hear both, steve. it was important to note the poway synagogue shooting did change the plan a little bit. he did open with that. being in pittsburgh, it gave him an opportunity to draw a link with the tree of life synagogue, the horrible massacre here last year. but in terms of the economic argument we heard from joe biden, i heard a version of his economic speech for so long but today really underlining the idea that it's in moral terms.

he talked about the tax law being immoral, he talked about what gm has done first in the recovery act which joe biden championed. they were bailed out by taxpayers, as he said but now benefiting economically from the trump tax cuts. they're still laying off workers, something he said is immoral. he talked about noncomplete laws, the noncompete clauses for salary workers that should be illegal. he framed all of this around this idea of economic dignity as you wouldn't be surprised, steve, as someone who followed the vice president a lot yourself, quoting his father, your job is more than just about a paycheck, it's about dignity. it's about your place in the community. in terms of that location here in pennsylvania, joe biden opened his remarks by calling attention to the facts. he said very clearly, the reason i'm in pennsylvania is because we need to win pennsylvania to defeat donald trump. this is a candidate now for president who is very clearly embracing this idea that he is

the most electable candidate in the race and drawing that contrast both with president trump on economy and in moral terms saying donald trump is the first president of the united states who intentionally is trying to divide the country. >> mike memoli again at that first campaign rally for joe biden. mike, thank you for taking a few minutes. let me bring this to the panel now. gabe, this is something you touched upon a little bit in a piece you wrote but there's an old cliche that came to us courtesy of the clinton campaign in '92, it's the economy, stupid, only thing that's going to motivate voters. one of the back drops starting out for this campaign is a lot of positive economic news, a lot of folks feeling the economy is maybe heading in the right direction right now. you hear in this biden message, an attempt to get democrats and all voters taking a different view of what's important. >> yes, and you see a lot of the democratic contenders do this. one of the reasons people are interested to see how biden does it is because he does it within the lens of labor specifically, that's at least what he was doing today. but the point being, yes, the

economy overall if you just look at the numbers especially that president trump is talking about, sounds like it's going pretty well. but hillary clinton talked about this all the time in 2016, democrats have been talking about it nonstop since then. the point that necessity make is it's not an equal recovery from the scratcrash of 2009 and the economy is not grow equally for everybody. joe biden is a skilled communicator of this message. it will be interesting to see how this changes and talks about different communities in all of this. where he is wheelhouse are the ones like pittsburgh today. he really loves this audience and they tend to love him back. >> we think of that and the polling showed really that's the art of the heart of the biden constituency. he does better with older folks, perhaps working class folks as well. i wonder is there a constituency when he talks about this idea of the soul of america, he talks about unifying the country, trying to give his campaign that type of person.

does he get other sections of the party that are not normally biden democrats but look at him and say yeah, there's an important mission here beating trump and there's something unique about biden that would allow democrats to do that, is there a part of the party that feels that way? >> i don't think so actually. i don't think there's a sweptsy that thinks only joe biden is the answer. i think we're looking at this as the full slate of candidates. each person has maybe personally a personal issue or maybe student loan debt because that impacted you directly, so i think people are picking their candidates or maybe not just one, multiple at this point, and i think joe biden is fitting in the swath of candidates in a strategic way a little bit more to the center than some of the other folks. i think it's important he touched upon the importance of union in a state like pennsylvania where donald trump's trade policies are actually impacting the white working class, those voters that went to donald trump in 2016 and

allowed him to win the state. i think today was strategic but i don't necessarily to answer your direct question there's a specific constituency in order to fight for the soul of america but i don't think there's an agreement about what that was. if you asked a black person what the soul of america is, it's going to be a different answer if you ask a white person, i will be honest about that. >> in terms of trump's re-election in 2020, we can talk a little bit about that here, in terms of biden starting this campaign in charlottesville, the comments we played for you today, that message he wants to take against donald trump if he's the nominee. trump put this tweet up today about his visit to pennsylvania. sleepy joe biden is having his first rally in pennsylvania. he obviously doesn't know pennsylvania is having one of the best economic year in history with lowest unemployment ever, now thriving steel industry. that was dead and now a great future. if you're seeing biden versus trump or probably any other democrat versus trump, trump's

rebuttal to a lot of the criticism against him as current economic conditions prevail in 2020 will be folks, look at the economy. look at the economy nationally in pennsylvania. it hasn't budged his job approval that much. will it work in the campaign? >> the president is on message, something he hasn't always been. certainly focusing on the economy is what a lot of republicans would love for him to do. the question usually with the economy is the trend more than anything else. what's the trend going into election day? you may recall back in 2012 when we were looking at the romney campaign and president obama's handling of the economy, the economy wasn't looking great in 2011 but it was getting better. and that's what mattered for president obama. the big question will be yes, i think the economy looks great today. how does it look a year from now? that will be the question going into the election. >> here's my question too, those are the rules as we sort of understood them in 2012, 1992, bunch of campaigns in between. do the rules apply now with donald trump with the

polarization, whatever you want to say, the tone he struck, are there voters out there who are willing to say i don't like trump in terms of what he said about charlottesville, i don't like him from a national unity standpoint but the unemployment rate is down? >> i think so, i think people will with their pocketbooks and all evidence indicates they do and i don't think trump who he is change that's dynamic. how people feel is largely driven by the economy. the other thing is what is the other side going to be proposing? what will joe biden be proposing? he talked about raising the capital gains tax. democrats have been talking about that since 1992. that's not as compelling in the same way as elizabeth warren has to propose a new tax or cory booker in work. so a primary of in big, bold stroke, what's his big, bold stroke on policy? where is it? >> we mentioned the idea of framing these questions in moral terms. here's another clip from biden's speech a couple minutes ago,

bringing up tax cuts and trying to frame it in moral terms. take a listen. >> the country wasn't built by wall street bankers, ceos and hedge fund managers. it was built by you. it was built by the great american middle class. and america, america middle class was built by unions, by you. the stock market is roaring, but you don't feel it. there are $2 trillion tax cut last year. did you feel it? did you get anything from it? of course not. of course not. all of it went to the folks at the top. >> gabe, we've been talking about this, there was so much anticipation of the biden rollout. we got fund-raising news last week. now we've seen him on the stump. i'm curious what you're hearing from other campaigns about what they make of the first week or so of the biden campaign. do they feel, whoa, we're up against something bigger than we thought here? how are they looking at it? >> it's a good question because

it's changed a lot over the last few months. the reality is everyone has known that joe biden would run and basically what it would look like for a very long time now. they also knew he would raise a lot of money. a lot of people were stunned, or at least very surprised, that he raised the most in the first 24 hours and came out and said that. but i think folks i'm talking to in other campaigns are saying what will he do to distinguish himself on the policy question but everyone knows joe biden but are the ideas he's going to put forth new and innovative or ideas democrats are already there for? i think people see him as a front runner but a weak one. certainly not front-runner like in previous cycles, hillary clinton in open democratic primaries but people know he will be very serious, very hard person to beat. i think a way a lot of them are looking at this is they're expecting a biden versus bernie sanders clash at the top and somebody will emerge and provide a contrast there. >> it was striking. he had that line at the beginning of the speech where he

said if i'm successful in beating donald trump, it's going to be because of what happens right here, western pennsylvania. i think there's that message he wants every democrat thinking of that electoral map in 2016 in those three states that had not gone republican in 30-plus years that trump was able to win. >> but russia never hacked other election before either. so there are a lot of factors in terms of the outcome of 2016. i sometimes think we over -- we overanalyzed the results of 2016 to extrapolate out what the future is going to do -- what's going to happen in the future when actually the more relevant data is in 2018. you're the data guy. in terms of the messaging that worked in 2018, that's what some of the candidates are looking at. i think it's true we have to win pennsylvania, wisconsin, michigan. that is true. >> the question of the midterm would always be, look, clinton had a terrible midterm, obama had the terrible midterm. midterms are really great at firing up the other party's base while the white house party is like yeah, we will wait until

the presidential. the question is do the folks in 2016 come back for trump? >> yes, because donald trump's never been the president before. so he's the ex-factor in the enthusiasm of the base. you don't have to tell why democratic voters need to turn out. i think a lot of folks who stayed home in 2016 now regret that season. i think as we look at the slate of candidates, again, it's any man or woman's race. i agree he's a weak front-runner and that's only because you have women in this race, and we've never had a woman president, steve. that means there's a lot of reporting around the idea women are nervous about making the nominee a woman because potentially she would lose because we never had a woman but the same was true about barack obama in 2008 until he won iowa. so keep an eye on that. >> you've just done a very good job for setting up and teasing something we will talk about later in the show. if you're interested in what

zerline is saying, stick around. ahead -- bar fight, the clash between white house and justice department. why it could lead to the attorney general being subpoenaed. plus, to impeach or not to impeach? the question dividing democrats. we will talk to the billionaire leading the charge for impeachment. stay with us. woman: this is your wake-up call. if you have moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis, month after month, the clock is ticking on irreversible joint damage. ongoing pain and stiffness are signs of joint erosion. humira can help stop the clock. prescribed for 15 years, humira targets and blocks a source of inflammation that contributes to joint pain and irreversible damage. vo: humira can lower your ability to fight infections. serious and sometimes fatal infections including tuberculosis, and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened,

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welcome back. there is a standoff under way right now for the department of justice and house committee with the power to begin impeachment hearings. attorney general william barr's much-anticipated appearance before the judiciary committee this week might not happen. instead a subpoena might. democrats on the committee want the ability to go into a closed-door session with barr to ask about the redacted portions of the mueller report. they are also calling for democratic and republican committee councils to be able to question barr in addition to the members themselves asking questions. that seems to be a deal-breaker for the attorney general. a justice department spokeswoman

telling nbc news, the attorney general agreed to appear before congress, therefore, members of congress should be the ones doing the questioning. how judiciary committee chairman jerry nadler responded with the threat of subpoena this afternoon. >> it's not up to the attorney general to tell the community how to conduct its business or we will decide what the most effective way of asking questions are. we told them we expect them to show up on thursday and we're going to conduct the inquiries we said we would. if he doesn't show up on thursday, we have to go to subpoenas. >> joining me now is a democratic member of the house jies judiciary, congressman cedric williams. thank you for joining me. if barr doesn't show up thursday, he said he will use whatever means we have to enforce the subpoena. my question is if there are subpoenas, are there any means at your committee's disposal that would have that subpoena enforced any time in the near future? >> i think so. i think the chairman is exactly

right on this issue. the three branches of government are all coequal and we have an oversight responsibility. just because you're the attorney general of the united states, just because you're scared of or unwilling to appear under oath in front of congress does not mean you're above the law. so i think he's right. i think we issue a subpoena and then i think we take it to its logical conclusion, depending on the actions of the attorney general. >> my question when i say in the immediate future is every precedent i can find on one of these is if the subpoena in a situation like this is ultimately enforced, we're talking years. in the case of harriet meyers about a decade ago, two-year process. eric holder, remember he was held in contempt of congress and the documents were finally turn turned over, it was a matter of years. can you explain the mechanism from committee's standpoint that would result in are b.a. being in front of you the next couple

of weeks or months even? >> if you say the next couple of weeks, i don't know but the next couple of months could be a route. then it's up to contempt. and then the lawyers strategies on what we do then. although you're a friend, i don't think saying it in front of the american people is the choice. the part of it is the american people have to stand up also and say what is the attorney general of the united states hiding? why won't he testify in front of congress? what's the fee of having lawyers question him? he's a lawyer. so i think that's a real important issue for this country, especially when you start talking about the russian interference. we have elections coming up and all of those other things. i think it's something people have a right to know. >> a number of your colleagues on this kbhity are lawyers too. i guess one question just from a practical standpoint, instead of having this potentially lengthy standoff here, he's willing to come and take questions from you and your fellow members on the committee, is there something to

be said for just taking that deal because you can do it now? >> look, i'm fine with asking him questions. you know the committee is set up five minutes and rotate between member after member after member, each member taking a different line of questioning and each member having the other things they want to bring up. for example, like me, i cannot understand why not one attorney general under this president has ever come to the judiciary committee with an african-american on his staff. there's not been an african-american in leadership. so we don't want to have to go down all of those different lines of questioning. so if you have attorneys with the ability in closed door to singularly stay focus the on those and followup questions, it's a very legitimate plan. and i believe the law allows us to do that. my other question is, why not both? >> you're shifting gears. we have started the hour with joe biden. first formal campaign speech wrapping up a few minutes ago.

you already endorsed the former vice president. you say he's the best person to represent the democratic party. you have about 19 other democrats out there. some of them are your colleagues. what is it that makes joe biden the best of them do you say? >> part of it is you have to look at his body of work. then you have to look at his experience, his wisdom, and the fact that he is not afraid to take on donald trump squarely where it matters. so when he talks about the soul of the country, we're not only talking about charlottesville, we're also talking about the fact that our values are at stake, the value of work, the value of diversity. we can't have a president that is actually promoting the division in the country just for his political gain. so i think that it's more than just charlottesville and the hateful rhetoric and rise of white sue prem six when we talk about the soul of the country. we're talking about rewarding people for work. when you think about our

families, they're working harder and owe more. they can't send their children to college. they have to worry about all of these economic pressure that's are on them while corporations are hitting highs in their profits. so i think that when it comes to that, he's absolutely the best advocate for working families across this country, and i think his body of work, most democrats will respect that and support that in a general election against donald trump. >> you look at the polls that have biden out there in front right now, one of the reasons he's out in front right now in front of democrats is he's showing strong support from african-american voters. there have been others like this who have biden, you see 37% with black voters in this poll. one of the questions that sort of surrounds biden's initial appeal with black voters is how deep is that? how much of it is familiarity, name recognition? a lot of folks look back to the example of barack obama in 2008

when he won the iowa caucuses in 2008, his national support with black voters exploded because suddenly this was very plausible, this was very viable. would the same thing happen here potentially if kamala harris, cory booker were to do well early? >> i think there's always that question, but i think your original question is why was he doing so well with african-americans. i think they see a guy willing to fight for them. they see a guy who abhors the abuse of power this president has and willing to stand up and fight against him. also, you have to remember when barack obama sealed the nomination, he could have picked anybody in the united states. he could have went in the united states senate and picked anybody that was sitting in the united states senate at that time. and you know what, he picked joe biden and he picked joe biden for a reason, because he knows joe biden and he knows he's a fighter. so i think african-americans respect that. i think they both respect kamala harris and cory booker. also both phenomenal people.

but the future of our country is at stake. and we need someone whose core principles are that and consistent with african-americans, consistent with working families, consistent with women. he's been a leader with lgbtq issues. he passed the only assault weapons ban in history. he passed the violence against women act. so when you look at his body of work, people know he's a fighter and he's not afraid to stand up to bullies. right now we have the biggest bully that the country has ever seen sitting in the white house and i think that's the value he brings. >> congressman cedric richmond, thank you for taking a few minutes. >> thank you. up next, we have breaking news out of the justice department, rod rosenstein has submitted his resignation. nbc's pete williams is up straight after the break. when you rent from national... it's kind of like playing your own version of best ball. because here, you can choose any car in the aisle,

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welcome back. we are following some breaking news, deputy attorney general rod rose rose ju rod rosenstein just submitted his resignation. this was expected and now it's actually happened. what do we know? >> right, the only thing surprising about this is how long rod rosenstein stayed in this job after it appeared he was going to leave. this is the letter, if you will come back to me here, steve. this is the letter he just sent

to the president and the key date is right here where he says, look, the median tenure of a deputy attorney general is 16 months and few serve longer than two years, but he said his resignation will be effective may 11th. so that's when his successor, jeffrey rosenstein, we expect, will have been confirmed by the senate and rosenstein did say early on he will stay until his successor was nominated and confirmed by the senate. there was some question here early on whether he would step down as soon as the new attorney general, bill barr, took his office. but it's clear he and barr got along well. you may remember barr has talked repeatedly about the advice he got from rod rosenstein in deciding what actions to take after they got the mueller report. he was standing next to bill barr at that news conference when the mueller report was released that morning. so they have worked together

very closely and it was clear barr wanted him to stay. now we know he is going to stay until may 11th, when his successor, we expect, will be confirmed. >> again, this is probably one of the most famous deputy attorney general's in american history given the last two years. i'm curious, obviously, we know the president did not look too kindly on the mueller investigation. we know about the reports at varying times, the report potentially rosenstein talking about wearing a wire. just a couple of days ago a reported phone call between him and trump after that was reported in which he talked about being able to land the plane when it came to this investigation. where, as he leaves the justice department, where does that trump/rosenstein relationship sit? >> i think it actually went through pretty rocky times because while jeff sessions, the toerl attorney general, was getting most of the president's barbs and now we know from the mueller report people in the white house

were saying the president repeatedly asked jeff sessions to unrecuse, which, of course, there's no such thing, the president also directed some of his twitter attacks at rosenstein and thing $sort of sour. but they did improve begin and rosenstein was determined to keep his position at the justice department to stay in charge of the mueller investigation and the two did for some reason, i guess we will know the details later, did seem to repair their relations to the point where he stayed on and in his letter today talks about what he thinks was the justice department was able to accomplish under trump's leadership. >> quickly, beat, any sense of what is next for rod rosenstein? is this somebody we're likely to hear from again? >> from what i understand, he hasn't really lined anything up yet. they tend to be careful about this so there's no conflict of interest. i don't think it will be government service but i don't know. i was going to ask him about the white house correspondents'

dinner saturday night. he was going to be my guest. but as you know administration officials were not allowed to attend after the president said no going to the dinner. >> who said there are no work opportunities at the white house correspondents' dinner. pete williams with the breaking news. the panel is back with us. gabe, this is, again, no suspense over whether rod rosenstein would be leaving. there was a little bit about when. obviously this in some ways closes a major chapter in this era of washington. >> an extremely long, convoluted chapter with many sections and plot twists. the rosenstein tenure, as you said, this is not something we're used to talking about, deputy attorney generals are not people we're used to knowing about. but he's someone who had such a varying relationship not only with the white house, attorney general whoever that was at the time, with mueller, with the press, with the national conversation about him, it's a long, complicated journey but by the end, as we know now, it does seem he was in good standing with the president.

what we just heard was very interesting, it will be interesting to figure out what happened there. as for the future of the justice department now, these are people left there who are on the president's good side and have been from the start. i think it's very interesting and it will be very telling when it comes to actually what comes next. >> and we already moved on to the next drama and that is potential subpoena for the attorney general if he does not appear thursday before the house judiciary committee. >> it's interesting to me the attorney general is afraid of being questioned by other attorneys. it seems like i can't believe this is happening moment in american history. certainly rod rosenstein's tenure was tumultuous and there were moments he was in the president's good graces and moments he was not, as when he appointed mueller, but even though he's resigning today, i think we need to know more about why he ended up in the good graces of the president. because i don't necessarily know he's supposed to be in the good graces of the president given

the history of the department of justice. yes, he's a trump appointee but that line of distinction between the administration and department of justice and the fact it's supposed to be separate from each other, and political influencers are not supposed to be this obvious, right, i think there's more that we need to know especially as citizens because it's very concerning to me that the department of justice is no longer independent. that's something we sort of skip over as if that's fine when in previous administrations it was concerning. >> what do you make of that? what do you think the legacy is? as zurline is saying -- >> eric holder was close to president obama. >> and republicans criticized that. >> so the justice department is an agency of the executive branch and in that sense the political officials at the department of justice report to the president of the united states. i don't think that's unusual. rod rosenstein, we will have to

see what the book is on him. it's unclear what his tenure produced. i know his successor quite well. i worked with him in the past and i think he will be a wonderful attorney general. he's somebody with a great reputation of thoughtfulness and administration of the law. i hope that will be a relatively easy confirmation. in this setting, who knows. but he will be for a lot of people a return to normalcy after a very tumultuous period. >> thank you very much. stick around. 2018 was a shattering year for women in politics. why are so many democratic women worried, perhaps, about nominating a woman for president? it's for real, not just satire like on "veep." >> senator might not be a choice for running mate. >> all-female ticket? the american people work hard for a living, okay. they don't need that kind of [ bleep ]. guaranteed. plus with most insurance, it's no cost to you. >> mom: really? >> singers: ♪ safelite repair,

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tailored recommendations, tax-efficient investing strategies, and a dedicated advisor to help you grow and protect your wealth. fidelity wealth management. is this a year where you feel there has to be a woman on the ticket? >> absolutely. i think it's time. i do. i think it's time. >> welcome back. those were some of the voters nbc news caught up with who are enthusiastic about the presidential nominee being a woman in 2020. with that enthusiasm comes anxiety from others whether a female candidate can beat president trump, in fact dozens of democratic primary voters across several states told nbc news that, quote, hillary clinton's loss in 2016 made them rethink how willing americans are to vote for a woman for president, especially when

pitted against trump. for some the risk of four more years of a trump presidency is not worth another attempt to break the final glass ceiling for women. associated press encountered similar sentiments among dozens of voters they spoke to. nbc's kasie hunt joins us now. she's also talking about concerns nominating a woman and democrats with us. kasie, let me start with you. this is one of those third rail topics. but what are you picking up on? what are you hearing out there? >> that's a good way to put it. steve. this is a good thing people don't want to say out loud but everyone is wondering but i would say there's a very high level of frustration among women democrats who have worked in some cases their entire lives to try to elect a woman president. they have been frustrated into how a woman has been covered compared to male candidates but they're frustrated about this largely unspoken candidate because they don't necessarily

feel just as though hillary clinton lost to donald trump that, that means it should be extrapolated so that means i woman didn't take on donald trump. just because we're having this conversation about does the democratic party try to appeal to progressive younger women, perhaps people of color, or do they try to win back over working class men, this conversation is part of it. it just tends to go unspoken. is it better perhaps to nominate joe biden? is he more electable possibly because he is also a white man who can stand toe to toe with donald trump? it's something people are very hesitant to talk about on the record. it's one of those kind of conversations that you start to pick up in hallways and casual conversations, and obviously, you pointed to some of the colleagues who have done work out on the trail on the ground. i would say i spoke more time in washington trying to sort through the nomination fight. the question itself from an analysis perspective, it's very

hard to answer this question. but we do know that this president has sort of shown the willingness to go places that we didn't use to think were okay. you remember he paraded bill clinton's various accusers and people that he had been involved at the debate, where hillary clinton was standing next to him on stage. we've seen him use tactics that are potentially problematic for a woman candidate. so that's one thing people point to. >> and it is also something very hard to mention. monmouth took a poll last week. they did ask the question of democratic primary voters is it better to nominate a woman against trrp ump or better to nominate a man against trump? a vast percentage said it doesn't matter. among female democratic voters, 7% is nominate a woman, and there's a margin of error, and 10% said nominate a man and 12% better to nominate a man.

so a little bit of a difference there. most saying no. zerlina, when you consider this issue and look at the polls, how real do you think this is? >> i think it's very real because women live in the world and we know sexism is a real thing. sometimes we skip over the fact sexism played a role in hillary clinton's defeat. but, again, we have to always remember she won more votes in the popular votes. a woman can win if she's able to get more votes in the appropriate places to get to 270. i think it's very possible. i do think there's a little bit of precedent here in 2008 as i said earlier. barack obama was way behind hillary clinton in iowa and in terms of black voters at the time, we were very skeptical about supporting president obama because we weren't sure if he could win a general election. again, as a black person, i happen to be black and a woman so i know about both, and black people understand racism is a real factor and could potentially be an obstacle to barack obama winning in the united states of america with its long history of race and

trouble on race issues. so i think both of these things are an interesting part of the dynamic at play because you have kamala harris in this race and she's both black and also a woman. you have a lot of different intersections of different levels of oppression and the way that our society is structured that play into the political system, and i think, look, the person who puts forward the best policies, has the ground games and has the funds raising is going to perform well and depending upon how the changes in the primary roles play out, we could see potentially a group of candidates make it far into the primary process and then i think we can have the conversation with democratic voters at that stage about whether or not they are still nervous because if you see women successful in those early primary states, i think that women will jump behind within of these women potentially to be the nominee. >> just talking about the campaigns again, whether it's

the top of the ticket or running mate slide, the urgency the nominee is going to feel to have a female on the ticket? >> they want to have a represented ticket one way or another but i think zerlina is absolutely right. the reality is there are people on the ground thinking about this question of what we like to call it in new york and d.c. electability, and what is not often externalized although it's internalized sexism and racism are real things in this country. there's a limited amount of evidence that voters are willing to take this all into account but, of course, we don't know what this next election is going to look like. when it comes to the ticket you have people on the trail accomplishing we're going to have a diverse ticket no matter what. cory booker pledged to have a female running mate, for example. i think you have basically universal acknowledgment in the party itself as far as the campaignes go but there needs to be a diverse representation on top of the ticket to be the base of the party itself. but they know there's a real apprehension, tremendous fear among the voters that they're going to nominate somebody who

can't actually beat trump. so that's why you see all of these people, especially some of the people, women, candidates of color saying this is how i'm going to beat trump. because they know this is a fear out there and in some cases think it's a legitimate one. >> i think the other question with trump is he won in part because given where hillary clinton's poll numbers were on election day, there was one person who could potentially lose to donald trump, given where his poll numbers were, and that was hillary clinton. the question is how unique is that to hillary clinton versus will anybody, male, female, black or white and gets into the arena as donald trump and donald trump doing things we have not seen presidents and candidates do before, will any candidate emerge looking like hillary clinton did in the polls in 2016? >> fundamentally how donald trump has to win this election is probably the same way he had to win the election in 2016 which is disqualifying his opponent in some way. so strategy and tactics the trump campaign will end up employing will be about disqualifying whoever the democratic nominee is,

regardless a person of color or whatever, the tendency for the trump campaign will be to run that same line as they did in 2016 because that's sort of the proven formula for success for them and, frankly, that's the kind of campaign donald trump is comfortable executing. so that's what they will end up doing. i think the dynamic very be very similar. whether the democratic nominees numbers end up where clinton's was, we will have to see. >> it seems to be if his approval rating is in the low to mid-40s, will he have to win by having a democratic candidate that's less popular. casey, gabe, zerlina, thank you for being with us. ahead, the growing rift over the single question, impeach or don't impeach? i'll talk with a billionaire who made it his mission to oust the president before the next election. [beep] you should be mad your neighbor always wants to hang out. and you should be mad your smart fridge is unnecessarily complicated.

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time now for the lid. congress is back today, and now democrats will have to really

confront their divisions over whether to impeach donald trump. according to a new poll, a majority of all americans, 56% of them say they oppose beginning impeachment. democrats favor it, though, by a 2-1 margin. one of those in favor of impeachment is billionaire businessman tom steyer. he has been running ads on this network and others urging voters and lawmakers to pursue impeachment. joining us now is tom steyer. he is the founder and president of nexgen america and founded the political group need to impeach. thanks for taking the time. we had the mueller report. it's been out there now for a week plus. folks have been absorbing it, absorbing the news around it. 37%, just over one in three americans say yes, impeach. nearly 60%, you see 56% say no. given the news coverage this has gotten, given a poll number like, that do you lock at that and say there is an argument to be made in the words of a past

impeachment controversy move on and fight it out in the neck election? >> well, steve, let's take a step back and see where we are. for a year and a half we've said that there is a moral and a democratic imperative to impeach this president, and as a result of the mueller report, i think that argument is over. i think everybody now realized this president deserves to be impeached. and the question is what are we going to do about it? and what we're asking for is televised hearings in front of the american people so that we can all see and make up our minds about what happened and what we should do about it. >> in that sense, the house democrats are saying there are going to be hearings, and we just talked earlier this hour. there is the whole controversy now. are they going to subpoena the attorney general. are there going to be other subpoenas. the plan they outlined which does not embrace impeachment, they say there will be months of hearings. is that good enough for you

right now? >> i think there is a question about how fast the hearings happened and whether they happened. i think that this administration is deliberately stonewalling the congress on virtually everything. so whereas we've said there was obstruction of justice, we're now watching this administration literally obstruct justice in front of our very eyes. what we want is the american people to see with our own eyes what happened so we can make up our own minds. the fact that the numbers don't support it right now doesn't mean that much. put the facts in front of the american people in televised hearings, which is how we actually absorb our news, not through a 488 page document that virtually nobody is going to read. >> is there an argument thewe a ayear away. this time next year we'll be in the mid of the democratic primaries. maybe there is a nominee who emerges. is there an argument that this should be put before the american people for them to decide through an election

rather than members of the house a year or even months before the election? >> well, i think there really is a question here, steve, about protecting democracy and standing up for the american people. and i think that, of course, if it comes to an election, and we can't get this done, we will push really hard on that level. but there is a real question here. are we going to normalize this kind of corrupt behavior? are we going to accept as a country, which we know this is the most corrupt president in history who has clearly obstructed justice and do absolutely nothing about it? because if we do do that, then we're making a statement about who we are and how much we respect democracy. and i think that's a statement that we cannot afford as a country to make. >> you say you want the hearings now. you think public opinion will change if you had those hearings. let me ask you this. is it a necessary condition for impeachment in your view ultimately?

if you pull the trigger, do you need to have strong bipartisan support from the american people to do that? >> i would -- we're big believers in grassroots. we're a grassroots organization. we're a direct democracy organization. we believe that the american people, if they see the evidence, will overwhelmingly understand that this president needs to be removed from office. >> do you agree with the proposition? jerry nadler has said this. he said impeachment can't be one party saying yes and the other party saying no. ultimately, do you agree that's where it has to be? you're saying you're confident it will get there does it have to be there to do it? >> i think ultimately, you know how the mechanics work, steve. you know ultimately on a voting basis this is going to have to be a bipartisan vote. but we're concerned with the american people. and i trust the american people, regardless of political party that if you put the evidence in front of them of this president's corruption and obstruction, that we will

understand in our bones that this is not right. >> quickly, for the health of democracy, though, is the argument he's made. you need ultimately bipartisan. yes or no, do you agree with that proposition? for the health of the democracy if you're going to have an impeachment, must ultimately be be bipartisan? >> ultimately it absolutely has to be, but you to start with the premise that you put it in front of the american people. an it's the voice of the people that will drive it, steve. >> got it. >> the bipartisanship isn't going to happen because people are going to look in the mirror and change. >> i take your point. you are confident that if it is put before them, it will change on public opinion. i just wanted to get clarification on this one point. >> yes. >> we really are out of time here. tom steyer, thank you for taking a few minutes. we'll be right back. oh! oh!

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and that's all from "meet the press daily." "the beat" starts right now. good evening. >> good evening, mr. karnaky. we have got a lot to cover. i am stephanie ruhle in tonight for my friend ari melber. get ready. we have a big show tonight. joe biden just delivered a speech attacking trump's lies at his first campaign rally in pittsburgh, pennsylvania. also, former department of justice insider neal katyal is here on the obstruction probe. and the nra in crisis. with the new york attorney general launching an investigation into the group's money. but we begin this evening -- i almost said this morning -- with this breaking news. mueller's former boss, deputy attorney general rod rosenstein officially resigning. he just sent his resignation

letter and will leave the