entertainment world are offering words of condolences. ava del he made a huge impression and impact on so many of our lives. that does it for me this evening. i'll see you tomorrow morning bright and early at 9:00 a.m. and with my partner ali velshi at 1:00 p.m. i hand you off to my friend and colleague, chris matthews. "hardball" starts right now. why is the general so scared? let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews up in new york. the latest clash over the mueller report has pitted congress against the department of justice over the attorney general's testimony. it comes after william barr threatened to cancel his scheduled appearance before the house judiciary committee just days before the hearing this thursday. barr is objecting to the proposed format of questioning, specifically he's refusing to

take questions from counsel on the committee's staff. according to "the washington post," a justice department official said that if the democrats insist on following their plan, barr might not come. however, democrats are threatening to subpoena barr if he doesn't comply, accusing him of trying to dictate the terms of his testimony. here's the chairman of that committee, congressman jerry nadler of new york, today. >> it's not up to the attorney general to tell the committee how to conduct its business. we will decide what the most effective way of asking questions are, and that's what our decision is. >> have you spoken to the attorney general at all about this, what will happen if he doesn't show up? >> we told him we expect him to show up on thursday and we're going to conduct the inquiry as we said we would. if he doesn't show up on thursday, we'll have to go to subpoenas. >> in part because they are often more effective at pressing a witness. of course they're better than the members. for instance, robert kennedy made a name for himself in the

'50s as chief counsel for the senate committee that the rued out organized crime and corruption in u.s. labor unions. fred thompson served on the watergate committee in the early '70s. he famously asked the question that reveal the existence of a secret taping system in the nixon white house. that was a good job, don't you think? when it comes to the testimony of a sitting cabinet official, attorney general ed meese was questioned during the iran-contra hearings, and that was in the late '80s. however, a justice department spokeswoman argued in a statement yesterday the attorney general agreed to appear before congress, therefore the members of congress should be doing the questioning. i'm joined by berit berger and john heilemann. i want to go to john first on the politics of this. the cheek of these people at the white house. they put out statements, called to testify by the congress, which is an equal branch of government. they say that's premature to ask

me to come. they talk like they set the terms. here he is saying i will not be questioned by the committee's general counsel. where do they get this from? donald trump and his arrogance? >> they get it from trump who has been throughout his time in the presidency has had no respect for the notion of co-equal branches of government and an instinctive, i don't think well worked out of the supremacy of the executive. none of these rules apply to him. he's going to do what he wants. everything in organized crime families, chris, the fish rots from the head down. they all get it from trump. everything we've seen from barr, whatever his reputation in the past has all been blown apart from the moment he walked in to join this administration. he's become, as has been said on multiple occasions for multiple infractions, he's become a political hack and a trumpist, which is actually where this comes from, which is i don't have to play by your rules, you know, it's trump. >> you don't know, i don't know who is going to win this fight because i'm getting depressed

about congress' inability to get their way. if they issue a subpoena, will that work? pete williams was on today saying not necessarily at all. >> it may work but it's not going to win any time soon. nobody wins now that actually wants to get answer to their questions. a subpoena battle if it actually went to the courts and the context of like a civil lawsuit, this could take months or years. the whole issue is going to be moot by the time a court actually comes out with it. >> here's the question. maybe it's time for the congress to play hard ball. john, why in the world did the committee tell the attorney general we're going to use counsel to ask some of the questions? why didn't they just jump him? have him up there and the counsel asks him questions. he can't get out of the chair once he's sworn in? why did they tell him ahead of time? >> as many instances of brazenness as we've seen from the administration, it still seems some people are able to be caught by surprise. i'm sure the committee looking back at for instance the testimony in the kavanaugh confirmation of christine blasey ford -- >> right. >> who sat and had committee

staff question here. >> outside counsel. >> i'm sure that house democrats said, well, there's no way republicans will object to this. we just had these high-profile hearings and testimony a few months ago. they would never try to object on this baseis. you got to expand your imagination for the degree of brazenness this administration will pull. >> berit, i don't understand why they told them ahead of time. why did they tell the attorney general ahead of to me? maybe some of the questions will be asked by the counsel. then he says, well, i don't think so. then they get into this stupid argument. the testimony before the mueller report was released, barr repeatedly expressed his willingness to testify. he didn't set any conditions for the hearing and acted like he had nothing to hide. he obviously has something to hide. here he is. >> the report will be made public -- >> in reaching your -- >> hopefully next week and i will come up and testify at that point. >> as i said, once the report is out, i'll be testifying and i'll be glad to discuss all aspects of the process. >> i'm glad to talk to people about it after that and i'm

already scheduled to testify about that. >> i said i'd come up to the hill as soon as the hill will have me. >> you know, i think a lot of people who watch the way this came out honestly wonder about this guy's guts. i mean, here's a guy that comes out and distorts completely the mueller report. two years of research by an honest public official, a civil servant, robert mueller, who tried to find out what was going on with the russians. what was going on with the american politicians who were at least benefitting from what they were up to. what was done in terms of obstruction of justice. and this guy comes out afterwards, 48 hours later and sits there with his deputy, rosenstein, and says complete exoneration on all fronts. when in fact this 400 pages of the opposite of exoneration. you don't take 400 pages to say a guy's innocent. there are a lot of details of lack of innocence there. they'd like to talk to him about that. so he says i'll come up and answer all your questions until he finds out it's not going to be one of those stupid hearings

where every member of congress gets five minutes and goes off on their own tangents. in case, as the guys used to say in the '60s, bogaertss the answer. talks for four or five minutes, never answering the question. that never works to get the information. they couldn't get to hillary, even if they had a case. here's the problem. here we go again. >> you're exactly right. five minutes where they spend most of the time giving political speeches or grande stand, that grandstanding, that's not a way to get answers. he has a lot to answer for here. these are significant issues. he's got to talk about what were these legal theories that led him to conclude that there was no obstruction. he's got some significant things to talk about and it seeps like he doesn't want that done by real professionals. >> they don't want a half hour interrogation by prosecutors. i want to bring in democratic congresswoman sheila jackson lee of texas. congresswoman, thank you.

quickly, why did you decide to bring in counsel like in the old days of bobby kennedy and fred thompson and people like that? why did you decide that counsel would be more effective in grilling the witness? >> well, first of all, let me say to you good evening, and this judiciary committee, 2019 judiciary committee, is pa painstakingly going to really direct its questions to the crux of what we want to know. so there will be certainly comments made by members, but we are going to be focused on important answers to important questions. the reason, of course, because precedent has been set. it's been done in whitewater and watergate and a number of others. no, this is not an impeachment proceeding, but it is an investigatary oversight proceeding and there is nothing unusual. democrats are courteous, rather. they believe -- if they believe in the rule of law, they believe in the protocol of apprising the witness that they'll be under oath and there will be other aspects of the questioning, which was going to include not only the lawyers, but it was

going to include closed-door questioning by members of mr. barr. that has been done over the last year. i've questioned a number of witnesses on a number of issues. >> would you play "hardball" on this, congresswoman, and say if you don't come up under our terms, we don't want you? what are you going to say? >> well, let me say i'm not going to and i don't think the judiciary committee is going to accept any rejection or refusal by mr. barr. if we have to take this to the highest court in the land. we hope we will not have to do that. but let me be clear, he is following the tone and the admonitions set by the president, who wants to create a constitutional crisis. the president wants to lead us down a path that democrats are trying to be deliberate and thoughtful and to get to the truth. the president has now changed his tune on the mueller report. he's castigating director mueller. he's saying this report is not

truthful. he's attacking mr. mcgahn. he wants to now pull back on his complimentary words when he thought the american people were buying into his narrative that he had been exonerated. they know he's not been exonerated. they know he has been associating with russian operatives, the adversary of the united states. they know that that was wrong. as you well know, chris, i've introduced legislation to say that if you do collude with the enemy that you be subject to criminal fines and incarceration if you do not report it to the fbi. so the narrative that has been created by the administration, attorney general barr thinks he can play that on the house judiciary committee. we have subpoena power. we have the right to go to court. and i would hope general barr, who served under president h.w. bush in a manner of integrity. >> thank you. >> would not want to undermine his reputation in this unnecessary fight when we laid out the hearings in a fair and equitable manner. >> thank you so much, congresswoman sheila jackson lee

of texas, who sits on the judiciary committee. meanwhile, the president continues to attack congressional democrats and mueller's investigators on twitter. at a rally on the saturday night, he called some involved in the investigation of him and his russian connections scum. this is the president of the united states talking. here he is. >> when you look at what's happened with the scum that's leaving the very top of government. people that others used to say, oh, that's one -- these were dirty cops. these were dirty players. they got caught like nobody ever got caught. >> berit, what do you make of that? >> it's just so troubling to hear. as somebody who worked in the department of justice, to hear the president talking about the agents and the prosecutors who spent so much time at that is just disheartening. the president also wants to have his cake and eat it too. he wants us to believe portions of the mueller report that didn't find a conspiracy with the russians. when comes to obstruction, oh, they were scum, they were

radical democrats. you shouldn't believe it? >> why are democrats so courteous? they tell him what he's going to face. hard questioning for a half hour by committee counsel. by the way, any attorney general should be able to withstand a half hour of tough questions. he is in fact a lawyer. he ought to be able to handle. >> why are democrats so courteous? >> yeah, why don't they just do it to him? >> chris, this is the question of your career, why democrats care more about -- they care about process. they care about formal fairness. >> what's different in this case? >> a lose over and over again. not a if you phenomenon. >> all this tough talk about the subpoena. it hasn't worked yet. >> yeah. it's not -- look, the one thing i disagree with the congresswoman about is she says trump wants to provoke a constitutional crisis. all trump wants to do is stall out the clock. he's not thinking about constitutional crisis. he doesn't know what that means. thinking about if we can tie this up in court long enough to get to the next election day without these issues having come up or so close to election day,

it seems like dirty pool for us to be litigating them. this is a pure four corners office. >> he is smarter than the democrats? >> on this issue i think he understands he's playing a winning hand. he can play the process in a way that allows him to win in the short term, meaning the short term between now and november. >> see how hard it is to say that? it's hard to say he's smarter than the democrats, but he keeps winning little battles over the constitution. they've got to start playing tough. anyway, thank you, berit berger. coming up, joe biden holds his first campaign rally out in pittsburgh, scores a big union endorsement. the firefighters are already with him. is he the best bet for democrats, whose top priority, listen to how i phrase this, top priority is beating trump. plus, the latest deadly attack on a synagogue coming six months to the day after an attack in pittsburgh on a synagogue there. what's fueling the rise in hate crimes across the country and why does president trump's

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donald trump is only president -- is the only president who has decided not to represent the whole country. the president has his base. we need a president who works for all americans. we can afford this. we can do this. >> pretty excited. welcome back to "hardball." that was former vice president joe biden at his first campaign rally in pittsburgh about an hour or two ago. biden kicked off his first week of the campaign trail speaking at a union event there focussing on an economic message and two key themes of his newly launched campaign. let's hear them. >> by the way, i make no apologies, i am a union man. period. i believe that pittsburgh and my native town of scranton and my hometown of wilmington and

claymont, they represent the cities and towns that made up -- make up hardworking middle class americans. who are the backbone of this nation. that's not hyperbole. the backbone of this nation. i also -- i also came here because, quite frankly, folks, if i'm going to be able to beat donald trump in 2020, it's going to happen here. it's going to happen here in western pennsylvania. >> biden got a big boost, of course, from organized labor today with the endorsement of the international association of firefighters union, a decision that didn't sit well with president trump, of course. the president unleashed a series of tweets attacking biden and complaining about the firefighters' endorsement today. i'll never get the support of union leadership, those people who rip off their membership. later adding dues sucking, firefighters will always support democrats even though the membership wants me. some things never change. that's trump. biden responded writing, "i'm

sick of this president bad-mouthing unions." this afternoon in pittsburgh, biden drew a moral contrast with the president. >> everybody knows who donald trump is, and i believe -- i believe and hope they know who we are. we have to let them know who we are. we democrats, we independents who have the same view have to choose hope over fear. unity over division. maybe most importantly, truth over lies. truth over lies. >> joining me now is the great harold, general president of the national association of firefighters. thank you, sir. it's great to have you own. you only have a minute or so. tell me why joe biden? why did you move so quick? you're an international union, 300,000 members to endorse biden? >> well, chris, first of all, it's great to be back on "hardball" with you. it's been awhile. let me just say that this was an

easy decision. it wasn't that we gave joe biden an endorsement. joe biden earned an endorsement from the iff and firefighters that we represent. he's been supporting us every step of the way, going back to the early 1970s, which i can personally attest to. by the way, when you were working for tip o'neal, helping to pass the public safety officers death benefit bill, to extend overtime rights for firefighters and other public workers, to ensure collective bargaining rights for all workers, the fight against right to work laws, to protect our retirement plans and not let them go to wall street as the next cash cow as 401(k)s. joe biden has performed over 40 years in the united states senate, as vice president of the united states, and we are loyal. and chris, you know that. >> let me ask you about your votes. >> you have our back, we have your back, and he's had our back and that's why we endorsed him today.

>> well, everybody who has a brain and a heart loves firefighters. let me ask you this. about half of your rank and file voted for trump last night. a lot out of anger and resentment for the establishment of both parties. how do you get them to vote positive when the mood was so negative last time? >> well, first of all, i'd remind you with some of the polling that has been reported, which is true, about a number of our members voting for president trump at that time, the first factor is that joe biden was not in that polling and joe biden was not in that race. >> right. >> although at that time we also encouraged and were supporting and hopefully putting him to enter into that race. today i can tell you that on balance joe biden will speak to, connects with, is genuine, is not a phony. >> i know. >> and will be able to bring home a lot of workers, including a lot of our members that felt disenchanted by the democratic party and nominee in 2016. >> thank you so much.

harold, thank you so much. international president of the firefighters. thank you, sir be, for coming o in his tweets this morning, the president once again inserted himself into the democratic contest, taking shelf shots at biden. the media fake news is pushing sleepy joe hard. funny. i'm only here because of biden and obama. they didn't do the job and now you have trump who is getting it done. big time. i'm trying to get the rhythm right of his thinking. sleepy joe biden having his first rally in the state of pennsylvania. he obviously doesn't know pennsylvania is having one of their best years economically, and thriving streeel industry tt was dead and great future. back with me, john heilemann. he said basically biden wasn't on the ticket last time. hillary clinton, the former secretary of state was. do you think biden -- i think he might have had a better shot among the firefighters knowing in terms of class and friendship than hillary clinton, who seemed a little more elite in many ways. socially, academic, whole

routine. what do you think about biden? do you think he can get people to vote positive? because in the end it's going to be the gut punching of trump against him if he's the nominee. >> well, i don't want to skip ahead because i think the questions of biden versus trump, you don't know can talk about these all day long. the difficult thing that joe biden faces is this nomination fight where the party that has grown up in the era of obama, in the era of post-obama, the party that defined the 2018 midterms. >> yeah. >> is not the same party that joe biden was a stalwart of. >> i agree. >> the democratic party has changed. so a lot of questions relate not to union members, although they are important and an important constituency. a lot of them will be loyal to joe biden. he's got to broaden out. whether he can appeal to young voters, nonwhite voters, whether he can play with a huge chunk of the democratic party now, the most active, more energetic part being women. how does biden play out with those voters? he has on issues -- he has a history that raises questions

for some of the progressive parts of the party. all those constituencies. he has a manner that is a little -- that feels to a lot of younger voters like a little antiquated. that doesn't mean he can't overcome it, but he's got some challenges to face, i think. >> a new "washington post"/abc poll shows biden leading the democratic field with 13%. that's 87% against you. none of the other candidates are in double digits. you're not a political consultant. you never have been. i've been in politics. would you advise him to go the apology route or something more modified of i'm always learning, a learned a lot from that experience, whether it's anita hill. you have to apologize in certain cases. what would you say against abortion rights? he is against late-term, partial birth as it's called by his critics. how does he change things he had an opinion on and a point of view on? >> there are obviously different categories here. i think most voters will accept the notion of someone's views evolving over time if the person can give an honest, credible explanation for how that

happened. >> he doesn't like doing that. >> i think that is a problem. people want from their politicians, honesty and authenticity. everyone is allowed to change over their lifetime, but if you change just for political convenience, political calculation, you have a bigger problem. you got to tell the story. how did you get from the "a" to "b"? >> well, at the same time -- i would ask him a tough one. >> that's not an apology. that's not apologizing. >> what do you say about forced bussing, the hottest issue in the '70s. why should why might kid be driven to a tougher neighborhood? why does he have to be the social change agent. he said i'm against that. can he honestly say, yeah, i think they should have been bussed to that neighborhood. i don't think he will. >> i don't think he can. i don't think he should. as you started to explain, now as distant as we are from bussing, people now don't talk about the complexity of that issue and the number of families who were perfectly embracing of the notion of equality and integration who thought it would

disadvantage their children to have to spend many hours in busses. >> nimby, not in my backyard. >> i don't think biden is going to back away from that. >> he's going to be asked. >> he's got to explain that it wasn't a measure for him. didn't mean he didn't believe in integration. he didn't believe in racial justice and he's going to have to make that sale. >> i think he's going to get a large african-american vote, even with other african-american candidates in the field who are of color. i think there is something about him. we'll find out. but he thinks, i've talked to him, he thinks he has good chemistry, a good attitude. >> he has always been warmly received by african-american audiences. he's gotten along with them in the past. >> i think he'll beat bernie. two white guys talking, i still think he can beat bernie on that issue. thank you so much, heilemann. one of my favorite guests, even though i never see you. up next, a chilling series of hate crimes targeting houses of worship. why houses of worship? don't they believe in god? why don't they kill people who believe in god in a different

way? why does it matter? they're evil. what steps is president trump taking, none, none to stop this. a simple word, n-o-n-e. stay with us. ster. stress can affect our minds. i call this dish, "stress." stress can also affect our bodies. so, i'm partnering with cigna to remind you that your emotional and physical health are more connected than you think. go in for your annual check-up. and be open with your doctor about anything you feel. physically, and emotionally. body and mind. cigna. together, all the way. that's better. welcome to fowler, indiana. one of the windiest places in america.

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one that hasn't followed the family goldfish. pnc - make today the day. welcome back to "hardball." on saturday a gunman armed with an ar-15, that's a -- it's an assault rifle, charged in the chabad synagogue out in southern california near san diego killing a worshipper and

injuring three others, including an 8-year-old kid. the suspect, who is now in custody, was arrested a short time after the assault. police say there were indications his assault weapon might have malfunctions, in other words jammed after he fired numerous rounds inside. this weekend's shooting happened exactly six months after 11 people were killed at the tree of life synagogue out in pittsburgh, joining a growing list of white supremacist attacks from christchurch in new zealand, charlottesville, virginia, and the mother emanuel church, of course, infamously in charleston. president trump who called saturday's attack a hate crime has been under renewed scrutiny for his less than explicit denunciation of asked if he was concerned by the seeming rise in white nationalism. here's what he had to say. >> we see today white nationalism as a rising threat around the world? >> i don't really. i think it's a small group of people that have very, very

serious problems. i guess -- >> anyway, according to recent data from the anti-defamation league, white supremacist propaganda efforts nearly tripled last year from the year before. so what's going on? white house press secretary sarah sanders was asked what steps the president is actually taking to counter the rise of domestic terror. here's what she had to say. >> can you point to any tangible steps the president has taken? >> again, i think the most important thing he's done is to embrace the people of these communities that have been impacted, and to condemn this behavior and call it out by name. >> earlier this month, the daily beast, that news organization reported that the department of homeland security has disbanded, catch this, it's disbanded a group of intelligence analysts focussing on domestic terrorism. so they're breaking down in any effort by the government to stop this stuff. shortly after taking his office, the trump administration cut funding toe local organizations working to counter violent extremism, including that by

white supremacists. for more, i'm joined by kaiser khan, gold-star father. and rabbi chuck. rabbi, as a man who is a potential victim, his community, his congregation must be really on nerves about this. is this something that you sense is tangibly becoming a threat to jewish houses of worship? >> i believe it's a threat to all houses of worship, and i believe the question is not if this will happen again, i really truly believe it's when and where. people are afraid to go to synagogue. i heard a story today of a young lady, a mother whose daughter was scared to go out in the hall to play during services. and those of us who grew up going to services know that that's an important part of the experience. she's scared to go to sunday school. so, yes, i think --

>> what's going on? usually -- all we have is history. we have religion, but we have history, too. well, at times of economic crisis and people are looking for scapegoats. at times of physical fear from abroad, we look for scapegoats at home for fifth columnists or whatever. there is nothing -- let's go to kaiser on this. i don't sense any major threat to america right now. the economy is humming, pretty much. why would people all of a sudden be breaking out as individuals and killing people because of religion and race or ethnicity? >> chris, thank you. first, i offer my deepest condolence for the passing of lori gilbert-kaye and i pay tribute to her valor, standing up to that hate. to answer your question, chris, this is russia-directed. they have a person that they wanted to be in the white house. this president sits in the white

house aided and supported by our adversary, russia. and that is why his condemnation, this violence and this division is half-hearted. and this hate and this division is aided and celebrated by our enemies. >> why? why do they want us to go after islamic people and jewish people and other groups? african-americans obviously, emanuel church in south carolina. why do they like that? explain. >> well, first, that is the way they can sow the division, to weaken us, to divide us. that had been their goal, to weaken the united states of america. this break of this union, the only way they can find is that this time around it is the faith. first i thought that it will be only muslims, but then came charlottesville, then came

charleston, then came pittsburgh, and now san diego. as our friend, rabbi diamond, says that people are afraid to go to places of worship. all faiths are afraid to go to worship. the only winner in this kate and division is our adversary, and i want those hate mongers and those white nationalists, don't become the tool of russia. >> okay. >> they wish to use you to sow the hate and division in the hearts and minds of americans. don't be too -- >> on friday president trump once again defended his ambiguous comments on charlottesville. kellyanne conway called his defense darn near perfect. let's watch. >> when president trump condemned racism, bigotry, evil, violence and then took it many steps further and called out neo

nazis, white supremacists, kkk. >> was his response perfect? >> that is darn near perfection. >> sources tell "the washington post" president trump amid renewed discussion about his less than emphatic condemnation is not eager to relitigate his response to charlottesville and unlikely to give a speech tackling the issue. rabbi, you know, as a member of the jewish community, a leader of a congregation, you know the history of anti-semitism is long. it's worse at certain times than others, but it's there. i look at the sri lanka killing, the attacks on three catholic churches over there in sri lanka. so far from here. it just seems that -- what is it about going after housing of worship, whether they're a black church, a baptist church, a catholic church, a synagogue, an islamic mosque, why do they go after people when they're most close to god? maybe that's a rhetorical question. most fervent, the most devotional, when they're trying to be really good people. at that moment they go to kill

them. >> they're cowards. they're cowards. they hide behind their assault weapons and their bombs and they attack innocent defenseless people. anti-semitism has been around, as you said, chris, for a long, long time. it exists a lot of times under the surface, but the rhetoric coming from our leaders has emboldened a lot of people to step forward and to be inspired by the shooters. there are a lot of other people i'd rather be inspired by. >> well, i have a feeling -- i hate to say it, i'm not a marxist, i have no other ideology other than i study politics. i think trump doesn't attack the hard-right because he knows they're voting for him. thank, khizir khan and rabbi diamond. up next, president trump is doubling down on his rhetoric against illegal immigration. how do the democrats campaign against it? some republicans would like to campaign against him, too. more "hardball" after this. aftes etsy is the place to find new favorites.

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. welcome back to "hardball." president trump was in rare form this weekend performing, that's the right word for it, for his base at a campaign rally in wisconsin. i watched the whole thing. that's the state, of course, that helped him get elected to the presidency. the performer in chief commanded the stage for 75 minutes. highlighting accomplishments, attacking opponents. focussing on his base, the president made sure to hit the democrats on the three issues he apparently believes will get him a second term. late-term abortion, open borders and socialism. here he goes. >> they are aggressively pushing extreme late-term abortion, allowing children to be ripped from their mother's womb right up until the moment of birth. and we will say again tonight that america will never be a socialist country. ever. never.

their entire party has been taken over by far-left radicals who want to nullify and erase american borders. they want open borders. democrats want to allow totally unlimited, uncontrolled and unchecked migration, all paid for by you, the american taxpayer. >> that's going to be the trump trifecta going into next year's election. anyway, president trump told his supporters he's already begun transferring detained migrants to sanctuary cities, even as the white house has played down that idea since it was first reported earlier this month. but let's listen. >> we're sending many of them to sanctuary cities. thank you very much. they're not too happy about it. i'm proud to tell you that was actually my sick idea. >> well, that wasn't the only border policy that trump discussed over the weekend.

in an interview with fox, the president said it was a disaster for his administration to end the family separation policy. disaster. >> the problem is you have ten times more people coming up with their families. it's like disneyland now. you know, before you'd get separated so people would say let's not go up. now you don't get separated, so it turned out to be a disincentive. >> that's right, yes. >> that's obviously a disaster. it's a disaster. >> so who is it that has been helping him shape some of the president's hardline policies, somebody steve bannon refers to as being trump before trump. we're talking about the man that trump calls the great lou dobbs. we're back after this. ck after . the freshest stuff this planet can grow. not buzzword fresh. but, actually fresh-fresh. fresh. at panera, we hand-pick berries at peak-season. use creamy avocado. cage-free eggs. and a dressing fit for a goddess. oh and every ingredient is 100% clean. come taste what a salad should be.

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welcome back to "hardball." when it comes to shaping some of president trump's hardline immigration policies, his white house advisers take a backseat to a guy he watches on television. >> the president is threatening closing the border. as the president said when he campaigned, it's time to end the talk and to start acting. i really believe that the way forward here is for him to declare a national emergency. tonight we're calling on the president to fire these incompetents in the leadership of the department of homeland security and customs border protection. they can't act effectively -- >> anyway, "the washington post" details the close relationship between president trump and fox, especially fox business network host lou dobbs, writing the two

speak as frequently as every day some weeks. every day. the president told "the post" lou has a very strong opinion on the border and i do listen to that opinion. for more, i'm joined by danielle moodie-mills, host at sirius xm and noah rofman. the president, the great communicator of our time, seems to need help from sean and lou. why lou? >> you know, i think it's because he really identifies with birtherism. he really identifies with his anti-immigration stance. >> was lou on the birther thing? >> oh, yes, he was. he was one of the most hardline birthers that there was. and so for the longest time i always thought that it was fox news that was parroting trump, and now i realize it's just trump realizing whatever big anchor there is at fox. that's what he does. and so if you look at wikipedia, which calls him, you know, a conspiracy theorist and says all

of these different things about him, all of the notes that he has hit on his show are some of trump's greatest hits. >> let's talk about how politics works. right now you have polls. people on the left, progressive left, all the way left, moderate left. you've got people on the right, mostly on the hard-right. there is not much moderate right left anymore. how come when he goes all the way with lou dobbs, he's able to trail along and brings the whole 40%-something with him. >> a lot of the right watches fox news and agrees with fox news, the hosts. it's hard to say who is leading whom here. >> right. >> the positions become part of the ether in the fox news network. it's reflected in the base and the base reflects fox news. there is a symbiotic relationship. traditionally a president would appeal to opinion makers to get them on board with his policies. there is sort of an inverse relationship here. as the mueller report demonstrated, though, the president doesn't have great judgement and often times people around him will rescue him from his worst instincts. >> every time i hear him, i hear

a politician. maybe that makes fun of all politicians. almost everything that trump says, whether it's pro-life, i don't know if it's a moral position. i don't think he has one at all. when i interviewed him back in '16, he said a woman must be punished. who knows what that meant. punished. what? you know he got votes out of that. i know he did. moving the golan heights to annexation. moving the embassy. everything -- in many case, evangelicals, millions of them said, oh, that's my guy. he's always instinctively a constituent politician. how does he lose? >> i think that he -- see, i don't want to say that he is a great politician. i think that he is a great tv personality. and he -- >> but there is always a group he's pointing at that he wants. he knows who he wants. >> he wants their applause. he wants their applause. he wants their adoration. lou dobbs is calling him saying you're the smartest, you're the best leader. america loves you. you're the best president that we've ever had. he lives for that. he is a complete and total

egomaniac and a narcissist and he needs that adoration. fox news, like noah was saying, a repeated cycle that feeds itself. >> while president trump has received nightly encouragement from lou dobbs on his hardline immigration policy, it's not fully shared by members of his own administration. according to "washington post," when the idea first came up according to transporting detained migrants to sanctuary cities, a top official on immigrations and customs enforcement rejected the idea because it was rife with budgetary and liability concerns, and noting that there are pr risks as well. imagine that there is a bus that gets in an accident moving people to seattle or some place like san francisco, the government's responsible. anyway, as the president urges the administration to reinstate its controversial family separation policy, it was then homeland security secretary kirstjen nielsen who pushed

back. she knew how bad it looked. >> the first person that talked about that was then dhs chief john kelly. we may be using this policy as a deterrent effect. >> it looks like sophie's choice, doesn't it? >> that's a great way to out it. >> do you know what i mean? separate the kids from the parents. >> you have to do that because you can only hold people for 72 hours. that is something that dhs and hhs already did. this would be an entirely different thing. it would be a lot of strain on i.c.e. you have to reorient funds that appropriated for it to get people on busses to ship them from the border to the coast. it's a big deal. >> one thing we know, trump's not going to change. >> no, he's not. >> is he going to win again? >> i think there is a likelihood that he does. right now biden is trending really well, but also biden has run before and we know that he starts out really strong and then he kind of pitters out. we have, you know, 500-some-odd days left. we'll have to see who can step up. >> who can beat him? who is the best bet? >> i think the best on policy is warren. >> the best to beat trump?

>> i would say a combination of kamala harris and biden. >> i think so too. you're with me. >> i don't know either. >> anyway, thank you, danielle moodie-mills. it's like i'm thinking. thank you, noah rothman. up next, why don't the many candidates for president ever refer to their party's record of success? nobody's bragging about the democrats anymore. it just seems absurd what the democrats have been able to do on civil rights and health care starting with fdr and they all act like they're the first guy or woman in the game. what's the matter with these people? you're watching "hardball." re w.

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this saturday the white house correspondents association had historian ron chernow speak at its associations dinner. the usual thing is to have a comedian speak at the saturday night affair. the usual thing, let's face it, is to ignore history every day of the week 52 weeks a year. given the election next year, wouldn't it be more educational to have politicians speak at least a little bit about history when they make their pitches to voters? i am stunned by how little our many democratic candidates say of history. even the basics how we got here as a country. they don't even talk about the role of their own party in that history. how franklin roosevelt created the social security system, the greatest anti-poverty program ever invented in this country. yes, a democratic president did

that. how harry truman ended segregation in america's arms services, opening the way for what many people believe is the country's greatest area for equal opportunity. how john f. kennedy and his brother robert declared the american presidency for civil rights. how lyndon johnson won passage of the historic civil rights and voting rights acts. also the creation of medicare and medicaid. democrats did all of that. and how barack obama created the first national program for health care. yes, democrat barack obama did that. what bothers me is that in seeking the democratic nomination for president, today's hopefuls fail to lay out the role their own party has played in taking our country this far. it's the candidates of the past who built the country we have today, and the candidates of today have the potential to change the world we live in tomorrow. elections matter because who wins matters. it's not just about arguments day to day between the man in the white house and who wants to replace him, it's the direction, it's the direction we want history to go.

and that is entirely in our hands. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in" -- >> somebody was screaming, you know? hide yourself. shooting, shooting, shooting. >> domestic terror in san diego. >> it sounded like movies, like you have to hide so you won't get shot. >> tonight the growing threat of white supremacist violence in america and the president ill equipped to stop it. >> do you see white nationalism as a rising threat around the world? >> i don't really. >> then -- >> the president slumped back in his chair and said, oh, my god, this is terrible. this is the end of my presidency. i'm [ bleep ]. >> 2020 candidate cory booker on the trump showdown with congress over the mueller report. and my exclusive interview with beto o'rourke on his first big policy announcement. >> that means