"deadline:white house" with nicolle wallace starts now. hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. the question, how far will donald trump go to keep his finances hidden? the answer may lie in a new lawsuit donald trump and his kids, ivanka, don jr. and eric filed against banks subpoenaed by congress, deutsche bank and capital one. the lawsuit is designed to block those banks from responding in any way to the congressional committee seeking information about trump's finances. "new york times" reporting, quote, in this suit filed in federal court in manhattan, the president and his family members argue the democratic house committee leaders who issued subpoenas engaged in a broad overreach. representative maxine waters, the chair of the financial services committee and adam schiff, chair of the intel committee issued a joint statement accusing the president of obstructing lawmaker's constitutional oversight authority and added, "as a

private businessman, trump routinely used his well-known littid in littidgeousness. our friend from bloomberg adds this, quote, welcome to the first salvos of the post mueller battle between the white house and congress over separation of powers, executive authority and pandora's box of thorny, troubling problems stemming from the fact that trump is the most financially conflicted president of the modern era. this latest standoff, combined with the obstruction case laid out in the mueller report, leaving a democratic front-runner, joe biden, to say today trump's impeachment may become the only choice for democrats who are constitutionally bound to provide oversight. >> there are elements of the report, seven or eight things left undone, not within his purview to investigate. the congress is attempting to

take that up. what the congress is doing and are doing is investigate that. if, in fact they block the investigation, they have no alternative to go to only other resort they have, impeachment. >> that is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. ashley parker, white house reporter for "the washington post." the former assistant director for counter-intelligence at the fbi frank if you , executive edm bedroomberg opinion, already quoted, tim o'brien is here. let me start with you, tim. you've been following the money when it comes to trump for a really long time. where does it lead? >> it leads to his wallet. but also to whether he's

financially conflicted or compromised. mueller focused on it but didn't focus in-depth. he made a strategic decision to let other prosecutors or investigators or congress take a deeper look at that. it came up in the mueller report around trump tower moscow project. the reason that was an issue is because president trump, one, lied about its existence. he lied about depth of his involvement with it. i think the reason he did was because it raises an issue of whether or not during the election and his campaign and the transition he had money at stake in moscow and public policy decisions contemplating or possibly enacting which became a more fulsome issue. not just trump tower moscow. trump has decades of links with organized crime and very murky sources of funding that raise questions about whether anyone has a tether on him. that hasn't fully been answered.

mueller chose not to dig into that. we have several committees in congress looking at this issue, the new york attorney general and southern district of new york. i think what unites this shouldn't be a partisan or ideological issue. it's about good government. it's about transparency at the co-leadership and good public policymaking not corrupted by greed or self-interest. >> you've been sued by trump. i imagine you're not surprised that he took this route as a sitting president of roping his kids in, surprise surprise, and suing the banks so they can't comply. >> also ironically one of the plaintiffs in this case is the trust he set up to ostensibly keep him from conflicts of interest. that entity is suing about disclosures. trump has been doing this since 1973. roy cone taught him how to weapon size the legal system. after racial discrimination in

housing developments in the outer boroughs of new york. typically most of those developers when the federal government came after them, they paid their fine and shut up and moved on. they sued the justice department, counter-sued, saying it was a bogus suit. despite evidence they were discriminating, et cetera, et cetera. i think a light bulb went on in his head that year, 1973, donald trump is 27 years old. he realizes if you don't really care about the environment in which you say things, civility or the law you can wage war any time you feel like it. >> a light bulb went off, not clear if it's lit. frankie figliuzzi, i have a 7-year-old, don't look here, don't look here. i'm going to do everything but don't look here. the first thing i do when i leave the room is look where he tells me not to looken a he's busted. donald trump taking this step as president, don't look here, don't look here, deutsche bank

and capital one, deutsche bank a lot of questions about the role they played in financing his golf courses and businesses. capital one, i believe that's the checking account on which he wrote the hush money payments where he is implicated as unindicted co-conspirator illegal hush money. it would seem important by lmplt or congress to have access to those bank records, no? >> someone who has nothing to hide doesn't want to sit in the dark. the president is trying to stay in the dark and keep us in the dark. what i'm seeing, nicolle, is a link between corruption and compromise. he's compromised by his own corruption. he doesn't want this to get out. by the way, i see the link to counter-intelligence investigation that started this whole thing. if you're talking about compromise and finances, a portion of that may likely have been reserved tore the counter-intelligence investigators at the fbi.

because it's clearly not addressed in the mueller case. more evidence that there's a counter-intelligence compromise angle here, nicolle, is that it's been reported today that adam schiff and the house intelligence committee have hired the former chief of the financial crime section for the fbi. that's a major acquisition and tells me that it's the intelligence folks on the hill that are looking at the finances. we need to watch that closely. >> you know what, frank, let me stay with you. let's dig in on this a little bit. we have had a lot of conversations about the circumstances and the conduct that donald trump engaged in that led then acting fbi director andy mccabe to open full field investigation, counter-intelligence investigation into the president. you and tim are both right. that was not the investigative thread that we know of that mueller pursued, but it was behavior like the lifting of sanctions that mike flynn pleaded guilty to lying about those conversations.

the mueller report is out. we still don't know why that happened, the back channel. the first section of the mueller report that jared kushner wanted to set up with the russians in the transition, we still don't have the answer as to why that channel needed to be open. and donald trump's bizarre conduct. his flattery of vladimir putin. his practice of ripping up notes from the meetings with vladimir putin. his insistence on meeting alone with just a russian interpreter, not even an american interpreter when he met with vladimir putin on the sidelines of nato. those are still known unknowns in terms of donald trump's contacts with the russians. do you think those are active lines of investigation in whatever remains in that counter-intelligence probe and in what congressman schiff wants to do with the intel committee? >> i do, indeed. all the smoke is there but we can't find the source of the fire. i think the source of the fire is investigated still by

counter-intelligence division. and with the hire announced today, former financial crimes section chief, schiff and his team, i have to wonder whether, indeed, there's been a sharing of information from the fbi's counter-intelligence division with their overseers on schiff's house and senate intelligence committees and whether that's helping shape the direction those committees will go in. that's likely to have happened. that's the norm for the counter-intelligence division to brief the hill on significant developments in ci cases. i think that a partnership may be developing there. >> what would -- frank has now mentioned twice this hire. it does seem significant. help us understand as a former prosecutor what that person's skill set is and what that adds to the committee. >> what you're looking for on a committee is someone who worked

in the field. whether it's having prosecutors to help you understand or former prosecutors to help you understand legal theories,s whether it's people that worked in the fbi that actually understand what the nature of the threat is, who the actors are that are trying to threaten us, and where our vulnerabilities are. so i think that's really the skill set that somebody like that would bring to the committee. >> so ashley, i saw you on the 11, i'm trying to understand what's in trump's head, whether he's doing a kabuki dance, whether clinton had an approval rating when he was impeached, go for it. or a red line he describes in press interviews around finances. what's your sense about trump's state of mind and these tactics, these extraordinary legal measures to keep his finances, his bank records secret. >> the answer is both.

the vin diagram that overlaps and work out for the president. he has long said and believed impeachment is a political winner for him. it's a headache but believes it's a winner. it forces the democrats into a box already. you're seeing leader pelosi having trouble with her caucus, some absolutely believe they should move on on impeachment and others shouldn't, smoo move into legislating. in 2020 if he can paint the democrats as overzealous, that will be a huge win for him. at the same time he actually truly doesn't want these committees to look into his finances and look into his businesses. he's said that was a red line. he means it. there's a few things that he really cares about. one is his finances and his businesses, the other is his family and his children. so here he's trying to prevent -- he's not going to war with the democrats simply because he thinks it's a political winner, he's going to war because he does not want

these documents and forms turned over. the added benefit, he feels emboldened after the mueller report and thinks he can stick it to the dems in the process. >> let me put up past headlines about his finances. hush money payments to women, extraordinary reporting about what he was doing and all the days he wrote those checks to cover up alleged sexual relationship with a porn star. business deals with russia at trump tower, which tim started talking about. his history of lying about the size of his worth and suspicious tax schemes as reported in a new pulitzer prize winning account in the "new york times." >> yeah. you know, we were just talking about impeachment for a second. i do believe donald trump is playing a game of chicken with democrats when it comes to impeachment. i think he really is. regardless if democrats impeach him or not, he's going to run on impeachment. he's been doing that for a year. i do believe democrats should

call his bluff. they should have donald trump play on their turf, not his turf. >> what's that look like. >> i think eithit's starting impeachment proceedings, they hold him accountable. what they are doing, it's on his turf. he's saying no to everything. we're not getting anywhere. it's almost like they are chasing each other around. i do believe they need -- you know what he's doing as well, he's testing the guardrails of democracy which he does all the time. this the space he's operating in. they have to just step on that and say no more. >> so let me make that turn with you. these are the democrats, the 2020 candidates, joe biden, the front-runner, kamala harris, elizabeth warren, julian castro all called for the commencement of impeachment proceedings. i believe mayor pete buttigieg says he deserves to be impeached but not in congress. do you think those are some of

the forces within this democratic primary? do you think the rest will follow suit? >> i think they are going to have to. what we're seeing with donald trump almost every day, right, every day we're hearing what he's stopping, what he's not going to do, the subpoenas he's not going to pay attention to. the people he's not going to allow to speak to congress. it's almost as if he's forcing the hand of nancy pelosi. if that's going to happen, i think democrats in particular in i think it's this weird game of chicken. he's almost daring them to do don't do it. >> i totally agree with ashley's analysis like a right brain, left brain thing. the left brain wants it. in the abstract, yeah, man, impeach me. the right brain is, what? wait, what does that mean again? what's that look like? he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who is constitutionally suited for the intensity of an

impeachment. >> he is not constitutionally -- >> i don't mean the constitution. >> as a human being. >> yes. >> he's not capable of withstanding scrutiny or being patient with process period. none of this is about strategy. it's a mud fight with congress over what he believes his prerogative should be. i'm firmly with frank on this that the big motivating factor here is he wants to remain in the dark. i think that's why we have to think about this process as something other than typical washington mud wrestling event. there are principles at stake about congress's prerogatives in terms of oversight of the executive branch and what we think the executive branch should be constituted. trump is trampling over core values. it's not just about republicans versus democrats, it's about clean government, and it's about corruption. he's corrupting everyone around him that plays this game with him.

i think people have to take a stance. >> i gragree with you. we'll get to this. he removed rod rosenstein who was the target of that ire. >> look at rod rosenstein. >> he left with a love letter. do you as a former fbi official, do you think that someone like congressman schiff, the democrats who see the world and see these principles as worthwhile of protecting, do you think they can move public opinion along in their way? >> i think sunshine is the best disinfectant to use a cliche. i think if we begin hearings and we air out the key witnesses and we can get them to the table without going to the supreme court each and every time, i think the american people will begin to see and it will resonate with many that this is a krumt president. ironically impeachment may be the way not only to target a corrupt president, but as it's been said, to actually ensure we're not redefining the

presidency. that's what's happening here. like it or not or under it or not, the president is trying to redefine what being president means. trying to have three branches of government where one is more powerful than the other. if the only way to safeguard that and preserve our equal branches of government and the way our systems of checks and balances work is impeachment, that's more reason to go forward with it. >> ashley, i want to spend time with you on this idea that impeachment is this jump ball. robert mueller released a report where he explicitly says he cannot say the president didn't commit crimes. everyone is like, i don't know, that's close, so close. now you've got the banks. michael cohen, no angel, testified in an open session that he faked the books, cooked the books with deutsche bank to help the president buy a football team that didn't want him. the evidence -- it's almost how

he got off in the mueller investigation. everything i did wrong, i did it on twitter. you can't catch me for that. what is the strategy moving forward? he is continuing to obstruct investigations into himself with these tactics of congressional attempts at oversight. >> that's what the democrats frankly have to grapple with, even though a lot of them say that's not where public sentiment is necessarily and politically unpopular, as frustrated as they were with what happened with the mueller investigation, you have an increasing number, including committee chairs sort of saying he's continuing to obstruct, he's continuing to abuse his power. even if we don't have the public on our side, even if we don't have any republicans in the senate joining us, we have a constitutional duty to move forward. you have the mueller report, which democrats viewed as using -- regardless of what conclusion he came to and attorney general barr came to, democrats who wanted to use that as a roadmap, as a template to even if they didn't move forward on impeachment, call witnesses

before the committee and say, hey, we know from the mueller report, you took copious detailed notes. we want to see those memos, those notes, to subpoena documents. now the president is preventing them from doing that. so that's actually a real tangible challenge of where three go from here. from the president's point of view, of course, as i said before, he doesn't actually want them looking into autumn this stuff but he also believed to a certain extent that a bit of this is a public relations war. because the mueller report, 448 painless, not all of it but a lot of it was litigated in the press before. there was great reporting in a number of publications. so they sort of feel like it's not as big a deal as it would have been were it new information. there's a bit of fatigue on the part of the public, which, again, is why they feel emboldened to stymie the democrats at every turn. >> one last question, when is the president most detrimental

to himself when he feels emboldened or exonerated or when he feels like he's been caught doing something extra naughty, even for him? >> that's a great question. i don't know the answer. i think it's a bit of both. you saw the mueller investigation is a classic example. he sort of felt under attack just to have russian interference looked at. >> why would we want to do that? why would we want to know what our adversary did. >> therefore he felt under attack, so he began behaving in a way that then added this whole extra bucket of obstruction of justice to the investigation. so that's him behaving sort of poorly when he feels vulnerable and under attack. now that he feels emboldened he's exhibiting the same behavior but for a different set of reasons. the answer is both. >> i've got self help podcasts. ashley parker, thank you for

spending time. rod rosenstein would be aware of a wire when the president announces his resignation again and calls the president funny. the biden bouts, it's real. we'll go inside biden's launch into the democratic primary and talk about the hunger he's satisfying in terms of taking on trump. beto talks policy. we'll hit the campaign trail with o'rourke and ask our reporter on the boat how his second act is going over with voters. all those stories still coming up. voters all those stories still coming up

woman: ahh! need a change of scenery? kayak searches hundreds of travel sites and lets you see how your baggage will affect the cost of your flight, so you can be confident you're getting the right flight at the best price. kayak. search one and done.

you'you inspired us toht flight acreate internete. that puts you in charge. that handles anything. that protects what's important. and reaches everywhere. this is beyond wifi. this is xfi. simple, easy, awesome. describe our obligation to

follow neutral principles. as the president pointed out in law day remarks last year, we got ourself in accordance with rules of law rather than the whim of a few or dictates of collective will. >> i guess that was funny. deputy attorney rod rosenstein last week quoting donald trump, the same president who has waged a near constant war on his own justice department and on the rule of law. rosenstein gave his official resignation letter last night concluding his two-year tenure in the trump administration. while his resignation was expected after the release of robert mueller's report, rosenstein's warm emblaise of trump on his way out, not necessarily. in the resignation letter, he writes, as i submit on may 11: -- he's not gone yet -- i'm grateful to you for the opportunity to serve. for the courtesy and humor you often display in our personal conversations and the goals you set in your inaugural address.

patriotism, unity, safety, education, and prosperity, because the nation exists to serve its citizens. let's not forget trump attacked rosenstein many times on twitter, including one time he called for his deputy attorney general's imprisonment. associate editor for real clear politics, he quotes donald trump on the rule of law. nobody thinks donald trump believes or is an advocate for the rule of law except it would appear today the deputy attorney general, former acting fbi director describes this way. rod shifted his gaze as he leaned back in his chair, i could see he was not looking at me. his eyes focused on a point in space a few yards beyond the door. he was a little glassy eyed. he started talking about the firing of comey. there was emotion in his voice. he was upset. there are three reported incidents of his crying. that's fine.

i love a man who can cry. but the idea this man who brought him to tears over and over and over again has as his deputy attorney general the last act to be a human shield for bill barr put his finger on the scale the way mueller would not and sent a letter saying he was funny. what? >> never understand concept of how you can show such loyalty and say such glowing things in a letter to somebody who so publicly was vicious and attacked you. i think we recognize rod rosenstein was perhaps the most untenable situation that any dad could find himself in, right in this is an unwinnable situation. the ending to all of this raises a lot of questions. i think he's going to have to answer those questions when he's inevitably called to testify in front of congress. >> let me flip the script. i agree with you. i was one of those people who thought he was in an untenable position. when he went before congress to testify before donald trump's

lemmings on then republican led house intel committee, we celebrated his seeming courage. he has his signature on one of the fisa applications donald trump still tweets about. i don't mean to sort of push back against your assessment, you're better informed about the pressures someone like rod rosenstein would be under but what explains the zigzag? >> i don't know we have an explanation for that. i think you're exactly right. for every one act you think, wow, you're really speaking truth to power here, then you have the comey memo. i think it's a back and forth. i think this is somebody who clearly like i said was in a tricky situation. i think we have to give him that credit point but made a lot of really questionable decisions. at the end i think his legacy is up in the air on all of this. seeing how we wanted to post him up, like you let the mueller investigation continue, right, you protected that. that was important. but then how it all played out in the end, i guess that just raises a lot of questions.

>> frank. >> stockholm syndrome. they study this phenomenon of people held captive and abused where they start aligning their thoughts with their capitalors. it looks like rod rosenstein. he has stockholm syndrome, he's been beaten abused and giving up. there's another scenario, he's trying to restore confidence in the department of justice saying glowing things about the attorney general and president and how great his tenure has been and how safer america has been. the problem is by trying to restore the public trustees deluding the public. he can't defend with any data what he's saying in the resignation letter. he's saying elections are more secure yet we have a president and attorney general trying to walk away from the concept of our elections having been threatened by the russians. he's talking about how the public knows even more than ever about the foreign threat and

cyber threat and, yes, that's true. again, we have an administration that seems not to be doing anything about it. he says the department of justice was unbiased, objective fact finders. again, nothing we're seeing in the behavior of this attorney general is objective or unbiased at all. so historical fiction is what we're seeing in his resignation letter. i don't know where he's going but we're going to see him testifying on the hill. he's going to look like a deer in the headlights. >> so the president that he quoted, a.b., on the rule of lawh it was one of his last public events. he could have quoted anybody, dead president, founding father, he quoted donald trump on the rule of law. here is what donald trump said about 60 hours later. >> and if you look at what's happened with the scum that's loe leaving the very top of government. people that others used to say,

oh, these were dirty cops. these were dirty players. >> that's donald trump on law enforcement. >> yeah. i do think rod rosenstein did protect the integrity of the mueller investigation. what i expected when he finally left after all the abuse was that he would say nice things about bill barr, who is currently attorney general and would not go after and challenge him. but i expected more of a james mattis-like letter who would thank everybody fighting under enormous pressure within the department of justice to do the right thing and observe and uphold the constitution and rule of law and talk about what great patriots they are. and how much we depend on them and what a great service they are doing. so in a highly charged political environment, which rod rosenstein knows more than anyone, the idea he would want to pleats jim jordan and mark meadows and donald trump by really praising the president,

quoting him, and writing a letter in his final act that really sucks up to president trump is completely bizarre. he doesn't have to challenge him, throw him under the bus, attack anybody, but the idea he went the strat mile to go out on that note is incredibly surreal. >> i think rod rosenstein is no hero here. he's just like nielsen, just like sessions, barr who is the attorney general. donald trump demands loyalty from his cabinet secretaries and many of them give it to him, even though he has no loyalty towards them. this is -- donald trump is someone who went after the rule of law, as we saw, went after the doj. it is wild that rod rosenstein wrote this love letter because it makes no sense. i would have said this was his last stand. he could have done exactly what you said, a.b., and he didn't. if anything at the end when the

mueller report came out he stood next to barr and let barr lie and stood there. we later found out it was a lie once we got the mueller report. he's not a hero, he really isn't. >> two ways you last around donald trump. you either turn yourself completely over to him, give up civility, ethics in the process. exhibit a is sarah sanders, in my opinion, or you stand up and have a spine. jim mattis is an example of the latter. when he finally reached a point where he didn't feel he could carry out his role with purpose he resigned. he resigned saying clearly what his values were and they were in option of the president. rosenstein was the rubber band between those two poles. he sometimes wanted to have a spine but he also really wanted to please the boss. since he didn't have that sense of himself, what berit was pointing out this odd waiver between doing the right thing

and not doing the right thing. at the end of the day there's a lot of evidence that rod rosenstein wasn't in control of himself. >> not to drill down on that comment but you bring it to focus rod rosenstein wasn't in control of himself, wasn't in control of his emotions is the portrait painted by matt's breaking story on friday by "the new york times" report about his willingness to wear a wire to record the president, by this excerpt i read from mccabe's book by him being glassy eyed, other doj officials who attested to rod rosenstein's state of mind in the days between comey's firing and appointment of special counsel robert mueller. it is an interesting other layer of the onion to say his mental up and downs may have shaped the course of this extraordinary doj history. >> trump played him from the

beginning to the end. that's the story. donald trump and the trump organization never had highly skilled, intelligent, purposeful, independent people working around him. he was surrounded by yes men. >> he didn't take notes. >> he brought that to the white house. >> thank you for spending time with us. the biden bounce as biden soars to the top of the field, the conversation whether taking on trump is a strategy that can go the distance. that's next. strategy that can the distance that's next. alright, i brought in

ensure max protein... to give you the protein you need with less of the sugar you don't. (straining) i'll take that. (cheers) 30 grams of protein and 1 gram of sugar. ensure max protein. in two great flavors.

the fact of the matter is barack obama is an extraordinary man. you measure a man or a woman's worth and their courage based upon how they react to overwhelming crisis. i watched this guy. everything but locustjoke.

he had an incredible -- and his integrity, his dignity, his decency. you know, he was a president our kids could look up to. parents wanted them to hear what he had to say. >> in that sound you hear just might be the old powerful obama coalition wheel slowly starting to churn again, this time for joe biden. joe biden is in iowa today. he's got a reason to be in a good mood. here is what the democratic race looked like before biden declared his candidacy. the polling average had him at the top not by much. now latest this afternoon quinnipiac biden up by 26 points. he's sitting at 38%, more than the next three candidates combined. by the way, elizabeth warren is now in second place in that pole. at the same time new polling shows some possible trouble on the horizon for donald trump. a new "washington post" abc news poll shows 55% of americans

definitely would not vote for trump in 2020. on top of that 15ers of republicans and 30% of conservatives say they would definitely not support trump in the next election. joining our conversation from san diego msnbc political reporter garrett haake. i want to start with you a.b. i think the only thing he tweeted about as much as biden is when sanders appeared on his network fox news. >> are we going to have to read him calling him sleepy joe. >> we didn't read it. >> in our life. it's just very interesting that he does reveal too much. he's coming out and sort of barveg out the fact that biden is under his skin. it's driving him nuts. he doesn't want him in pittsburgh. he doesn't want him going after the working class. he doesn't want him joining union members. we know he's so obvious.

there's something about biden -- >> get off my lawn. >> look, biden has started off his first -- kind of his first campaign in pennsylvania, western pennsylvania, where donald trump had said this is his state where donald trump won, the blue wall, pennsylvania, wisconsin, michigan. you know, the person that gives him the most threat in those areas is joe biden, so it makes sense donald trump is now worried about that. look, you know, we're in a situation where things are still fluid. those numbers we saw are very impressive especially for elizabeth warren who shot up a little bit, second place. it is fluid. it's so early. we just don't know what's going to happen. we have debates in june. we're going to have one every month. we have to see what happens. we'll see where we ultimately end up. there was a "washington post" pole that came out 24 hours ago

before biden jumped in. he said 54% of democratic voters in the primaries still hadn't made their decision yet. i think this is where we are. >> let me talk to you former strategist to current star strategist. forget we're on television. if i were advising democrats, i would say taking a sledgehammer to donald trump's latent racism and immorality has to be part of the democratic message in 2020. do you agree with that? >> absolutely. you have to take it to donald trump. i think that's one of the things biden has done very well. he put the stake in the ground and said i'm coming for you, donald trump, and he went to pennsylvania. he sent a strong message. >> that's what that is about. >> i totally agree. at the same time, though, we are seeing one of the reasons elizabeth warren is in second place is the democratic primary base wants to hear about issues, policies, they want to hear how you're going to move the country forward, so you have to do both.

>> garrett, what are you hearing? how have the biden bounce polls landed on the campaign trail for the rest of the candidates? >> i think there's not a lot of reaction to the specific polls. it is entirely to early, still april. as i've been covering some of these other candidates and going to multi-candidate forums in which biden has not been present, at least so far. the sense i've gotten talking to voters interested in some of these other candidates while they would absolutely rush out to back biden as the nominee, there's not as much enthusiasm for him at this stage beyond kind of a safe harbor. this is the voters who come out to see other candidates. you can almost index joe biden's strength to the perceived strength of donald trump. what i mean by that, if you think any one of these candidates could beat donald trump, you're going to pick the person most progressive or most in line with your particular values. if you buy what joe biden has premised his campaign on, this

is a singular moment of terror for this country and he is the only guy who can beat donald trump, you're going to line up in his camp. i think they are still supportive of a lot of other candidates who say, i think elizabeth warren can beat him, i think cory booker can beat him, and i want a candidate that reflects more the values of what they want the democratic party to look like in the future. those are the folks in the 54% or so undecided or aligned with some of these other candidates. >> a.b. is right in terms of his twitter feed is a window into his soul. but his insecurities, biden makes him insecure. >> i also think when he says joe biden, he thinks pennsylvania, wisconsin, and michigan. i think absolutely the democrats have to focus on race and immigration. he's been heinous from public policy standpoint and civil rights standpoint. what democrats have to deliver in those states as well, they have to talk about jobs, the

economy and health care. those are going to be winning issues. trump right now is still on pretty solid ground on the economy. he's riding on obama's legacy but he's made it his own. >> all right. no one is going anywhere. after the break beto captured the imagination of texans and a lot of national democrats during 2018 midterms and he's at the top of candidates democrats still want to learn more about. now he's rolled out a big policy announcement. we'll head out to the campaign trail with garrett against to see how that went over. that's next. arrett against to see how that went over that's next. if you have a garden you know, weeds are lowdown little scoundrels.

draw the line with roundup. the sure shot wand extends with a protective shield to target weeds precisely and kill them right down to the root. roundup brand. trusted for over 40 years. need a change of scenery? kayak searches hundreds of travel sites - even our competitors - so you can be confident you're getting the right flight at the best price. kayak. search one and done. you get the freedom of what a 7-day return policy. this isn't some dealership test drive around the block. it's better. this is seven days to put your carvana car to the test and see if it fits your life. load it up with a week's worth of groceries. take the kiddos out for ice cream. check that it has enough wiggle room in your garage. you get the time to make sure you love it. and on the 6th day, we'll reach out and make sure everything's amazing. if so... excellent. if not, swap it out for another or return it for a refund. it's that simple. because at carvana, your car happiness is what makes us happy. or crohn's symptoms...

are holding you back... and your current treatment hasn't worked well enough... it may be time for a change. ask your doctor about entyvio®, the only biologic developed and approved just for uc and crohn's. entyvio® works at the site of inflammation in the gi tract, and is clinically proven to help many patients achieve both symptom relief and remission. infusion and serious allergic reactions can happen during or after treatment. entyvio® may increase risk of infection, which can be serious. pml, a rare, serious, potentially fatal brain infection caused by a virus may be possible. tell your doctor if you have an infection, experience frequent infections or have flu-like symptoms or sores. liver problems can occur with entyvio®. if your uc or crohn's treatment isn't working for you, ask your gastroenterologist about entyvio®. entyvio®. relief and remission within reach.

beto o'rourke is fighting to stay in that top tier of democrats running for the nomination. his support more than halved between march and april but as he keeps reminding us, it's early, down to 5% on the last quinnipiac poll. he's ready to evolve as a

candidate. garrett is back. we were just talking about the break, no one should count beto out. he's someone, sort of has that charming dell me what i'm doing wrong and tell me how i can fix it very sort of self-aware chip to him thatot you saw today? >> if nothing else they have proven they have an ability to adapt. has he had to adapt. when you think about it, this is a guy who essentially got lit on fire in the last quarter of that senate race in texas and from the moment he lost was speculated about being a presidential candidate, jumped into fanfare, then there was nowhere to go but down. that's what they have been seeing the last couple of weeks. what we've been seeing over the last four or five days is the o'rourke campaign responding either directly or indirectly to what has been the criticism he's faced. first the rollout of his climate plan they did just yesterday morning. the plan itself is very detailed but setting aside entirely, if you like, the actual plan, just

the fact they were able to do this, to peru this multi-pronged policy position, executive actions, legislation, and do this very competent rollout with the appropriate visuals, appropriate signoff from the an something that o'rourke in particular had to do because of the criticism that he's received about not being specific enough. then there are various stylist i can things they're changing up. you're hearing him talk more about why a loss in texas is not disquaood thing. he talks about how he got half a million people who voted for th couple weeks of this campaign. he's starting to play the media game we've seen mayor pete do so well. o'rourke did exactly one national interview between the day he launched and two days ago. and now he's done two in the last two days. so they are starting to engage in mid-season baseball here. this is july baseball. this is everybody is going to win some, and lose some.

how do you keep going when just being the on-fire candidate of the moment is not enough? the moment people start voting doesn't happen another eight months. >> i completely agree with that. also as someone who works for candidates, you'd much rather have the guy who in a room can create moments which beto can do around his belief about players having the right to kneel and protest, the way he did -- you'd much rather have the guy that had that walking away, but had to really get in a room and figure out how to do what garrett just said, roll out policy. >> but it's a really good sign that he' corrections. you said he's open to the fact he has limitations and he's new to this. he's smart to bring up texas because a poll out yesterday from emerson college shows everyone loses, it's too close for comfort donald trump to wind up against bernie and elizabeth and everyone in the poll. but biden beats him and owe rock and trump are 50/50. and votes explode trump's path to reelection. it is very good for beto who

brings the map no one else brings into the field into the conversation whenever he can. what's also interesting, i'm on board with buttigieg and beto doing the right paper piles with focus on energy. the idea of connecting first instead of doing the hillary first which is to wipe out white papers and be dry and nobody cares is smart premise. they have to connect with you and buy in. they'll get to the details later. there is plenty of time. debates -- this is a long, long haul. it's in the embryonic stages, corrine, that's right. as it is stunning that biden in the poll has 50% in a field of 20 with non-white voters. this primary electorate unless things change is proving far more pragmatic including voters of color. they want to win. they know this party is dead if they lose to donald trump next year. and the idea of risking that seems to dangerous to these voters. >> it also is a big blow --

>> i was going to call that the ee obama bump as well. biden is remembered foundly as being number two. you played that clip where he goes in about obama and talks about how wong derful obama is. that's what you're seeing. it's baked in in that way. >> don't you think the idea of identity politics is always used negatively? no one says that positively. the idea african-american voters vote based on race has always been a lie. >> it has always been a lie, and i really push back when people say we shouldn't do identity politics. it is incredibly important to talk about people's identity -- >> it's positive. >> it's positive and plays into how they vote and how they see candidates, how candidates speak to them clearly. i want to say something about beto. the problem that beto had was -- people were expecting so much from him, and so when he announced, yes, he got a bounce, but he didn't take advantage of it. and i think that's what

happened. and what you saw is you saw mayor pete all of a sudden just blow up and got all this media attention, and beto kind of fell off. so i think this is good that he's now talking about policy. it's incredibly important. you have to have substance. you have to have a vision. you have to know where -- you have to tell people where you're taking the country. >> you know, i'll dissent a little on this. >> please. >> i think a lot of people who aspire to the presidency do so because they think they're special, and they've been told their whole lives they're special. they're special kids and they're special in high school. >> who told donald trump that? >> oh, god, donald trump told himself that from like age 4. when he was told by his family for decades he was special. i think beto has been told from a's very young age he was a very special boy, and i think the presidency weeds out special people. charisma, the elections weed that out. charisma is important. having a message, speaking to

people's dreams and identity is important. you have to roll in with an articulated vision. trump, in my view, is a train wreck obviously, but he did stay on message as a candidate. he talked about the dangers of immigration. he talked about the chinese threat. he talked about the need to reinvigorate middle class jobs. he had nothing behind it, but he stayed on message. i think beto has to go beyond just being special. and to me right now he just feels like a very special boy. >> garrett, he should do interviews with reporters on the trail covering him every day. every day, free press advice for anyone -- i know, every day start his day talking to you. >> i will say this. there is a disconnect here between the new york media who feel as though o'rourke campaign is hostile to them and those who cover him every day. i've been -- i understand that. you may be in the small minority there. i've been able to ask beto o'rourke a question if not one every single day i've covered him. what they have not done is pull

him off the field and park him in green rooms. and i think there is a disparity there in the strategy. that may yet still change. i mean, it goes to the adaptability question. i'm go even farther on the question of special. i think everyone who runs for president is a baseline, has an ego bigger than the building behind me. to convince yourself you need to be the leader of the free world in -- you walk in the door thinking you're more special than everybody else. so i think we should set the bar there. and when we go to that discussion. >> as the mommy at the table, i'm raising a son to think he, too, is special. so hopefully we don't have to cover -- garrett, i want to break down that divide between new york media and media on the trail. you text me every day you get an answer from any candidate you're on the road with. we'll get it on the hour. thank you for spending time with us. we're going to 'nique in a break. we'll be right back. along with support, chantix is proven to help you quit. with chantix you can keep smoking at first and ease into quitting so when the day arrives, you'll be more ready to kiss cigarettes goodbye.

when you try to quit smoking, with or without chantix, you may have nicotine withdrawal symptoms. stop chantix and get help right away if you have changes in behavior or thinking, aggression, hostility, depressed mood, suicidal thoughts or actions, seizures, new or worse heart or blood vessel problems, sleepwalking, or life-threatening allergic and skin reactions. decrease alcohol use. use caution driving or operating machinery. tell your doctor if you've had mental health problems. the most common side effect is nausea. talk to your doctor about chantix.

man: i'm 53. but in my mind i'm still 35. that's why i take osteo bi-flex, to keep me moving the way i was made to. it nourishes and strengthens my joints for the long term. osteo bi-flex. find our coupon in sunday's paper.

we're late because all my guests were so amazing. my thanks to a.b., tim and garrett. that does it this hour. i'm nicolle. thank you so much for watching. "mtp daily" with steve kornacki in for chuck. >> thanks, nicolle. if it's tuesday, are they actually building bridges? ♪ ♪ good evening. i'm steve kornacki in new york in for chuck todd. welcome to "meet the press" daily. after casting 2020 as a mission to purge the nation of president trump, joe