hillary clinton will join rachel matto. adam schiff joins lawrence o'donnell. he said barr should never have gotten the job. he got the job and now what are democrats going to do about it. i hand you off to my friend and colleague. chris matthews with "hardball" start now. >> water fight. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. in an own senate hearing, william barr walked into a mine field set by last night's revelation that he had and undermined the report of robert mueller. perhaps because of it, the attorney general is backing out before the house judiciary

committee. barr had been refusing to take questions on the lawyers and now he is refusing to comply with a subpoena for the full mueller report. here's chairman jerry nadler on those developments moments ago. >> attorney general barr informed us that he will not attend tomorrow's hearing. i understand why he wants to avoid that scrutiny, but when push comes to shove, the administration cannot dictate the terms of our hearing in our hearing room. the department of justice told us they will not comply with our subpoena for the full un redacted mueller report, a subpoena that was returnable today. compliance of congressional subpoenas is not optional and if good faith negotiations don't result in a pledge of compliance, the next step is seeking a contempt citation against the attorney general. >> this comes after today's hearing where in case after case

barr came across, defending the president rather than as the chief official. the mueller report said trump tried to fire the special counsel. barr said trump tried to remove him as if there was any difference. barr said trump's attempt to sway testimony was really an effort to discourage them from lying. however the hearing reaches the climax barr's admission that he had not looked at the evidence that the prosecute could not be exonerated. here's the attorney general in a dramatic exchange with kamala harris. >> has the president or anyone at the white house ever asked or suggested that you open an investigation of anyone. yes or no, please, sir. >> the president or anybody else? >> seems you would remember something like that and be able to tell us? >> yeah, but i'm grappling with the word suggest. there have been matters out

there that they have not asked me to open an investigation. >> perhaps they suggested? >> i don't know. i wouldn't say suggested. >> hinted? inferred? you won't know. okay. >> barr was masterful in obfuscating. senator harris nailed him down. another revealing exchange, the attorney general could not or would not say if they ever asked him implicitly or otherwise to open new investigations. we just saw this tape. let's catch this one. >> then reaching your conclusion, did you personally review all of the underlying evidence? >> no, we took -- >> mr. rosenstein? >> we accepted the statements in the report as factual record. >> did anyone in your executive office review the evidence supporting the report?

>> no. >> no? yet you represented to the american public that the evidence was not "sufficient " to support an obstruction of justice? >> the evidence presented in the report. >> i think you made it clear that woo you have not looked at the evidence. we can move on. >> senator harris tweeted what i just saw is unacceptable. barr must resign now. in doing so, she joined democrats calling for the attorney general to step down. senator kamala harris joins me now. she sits on the senate judiciary committee and is a canndidate fr president in 2020. you are calling now for his resignation. what was it that broke you on that conclusion? >> well, it's a culmination of things, chris. from the beginning, i was part of the judiciary committee

hearings to decide whether or not he should be attorney general. the confirmation hearings. i vote the against him because i thought he was less of a candidate. since then we have seen an attorney general who after a comprehensive extensive two-year investigation by bob mueller and an extraordinary team of lawyers and prosecutors, after two years of around the clock work, he in 2 days, submits a four-page summary of the investigation that clearly was intended to mislead the american public about the contents of the report and does a press conference reinforcing his biased and it's clear he is biased biased interpretation of not only the evidence that now we know he did not review, but his interpretation of the meaning of what had been gathered in the report. his biased view of the intent of

the actors who were the subject of the investigation. then today he admitted he did 23409 review the evidence. i'm going to tell you something as a former prosecutor. when you were talking about the attorney general of the united states who ispresented with the responsibility and the duty to represent the people of the united states on a question of whether the president obstructed justice, i think it is reasonable that the american public should expect that before that attorney general speaks, he would have firsthand knowledge of the evidence before he speaks and utters a word about whether or not he is going to charge a crime. but this attorney general failed to do it. clearly it is because he thinks of himself as the attorney of the president instead of the people's attorney. i think that's disqualifying. >> to put a sharp point on it,

it seems he overruled mueller and said basically, he can't exonerate the president. i'll do it. it seems as you point out without going into the evidence, he ash trarl made the judge evening if mueller won't do it. >> i agree with you. the report is a report. is if you have it in front of you, you see the cover page of that document that calls said because it is, a report. it is not a file of evidence. it is a report on an investigation. the findings of that investigation. he said it himself. after the report was filed with him, it was his "baby." what he's got his baby, then you know you have to figure out what exactly it is before you start representing what it is to the american public. he failed to doe that, chris.

listen, there is that piece about his testimony where he could not clearly answer it. i believe he can, but did not clearly answer whether he had been asked by the president or any member of the white house to investigate someone or anyone. >> if this is his baby, who is the daddy. i get the sense watching this. i mean this. this was a brilliant pr operation. it started with a two-day wait when he said the president was exonerated. i'm sorry to be like this. it's a serious day. he lets it marinate or justate for four weeks and puts the spin on it that morning. do you think the president has been directing this choreography? >> i have no way of knowing that, but i do know what i have seen in the attorney general and i see someone who clearly does not have the people in mind as

his first priority or his first or for whom heship of ultimate or important duty. he feels a sense of duty to th . president and does not feel the same sense of duty to the american people. as you mentioned, i'm traveling the country and meeting a lot of people feeling a sense of distrust in our defendant and institutions and leaders. when you have the person who was responsible for being the highest official in our land certainty our system of justice, presenting himself and conducting himself in this way, it compromises the integrity in our system of justice. there are people walking into courthouses be it state or federal courthouses being prosecuted and convicted on evidence less than the evidence of this report. this is a statement of our

system overall. we have seen that general barr is not contributing to anyone a confen confidence in this justice system. >> is he upholding the constitution. >> certainly we can call into question what is his primary duty in terms of of the way he thinks of his job. >> how far are you going to do. do you think he should be impeached? >> we should take it one step at a time, but i think he should resign and he intentionally mischaracterized the report. i believe he intentionally is misleading congress and the united states congress that has an empty responsibility as a coequal branch of government to have oversight and determine the integrity of the system and he failed to convince the congress that he conducted himself with

integrity. >> let's move ahead. don mcgahn, the attorney general said he would prevent the white house counsel from testifying before the congress. here he goes. >> do you have any connections of why don mcgahn should not testify before this committee about his experience? >> um, yes. i think he is a close adviser to the president -- >> never exerted executive prejudice. >> we're haven't exerted executive privilege. that's a call for the president to make. >> once he testified before special counsel investigation, how can he now say i won't make the same testimony in president claiming executive privilege. it's like virginity. once you start talking about a matter and you say you can't do it, i understand that's how

executive privilege works. once you have given it up, you can't grab it back. >> i'm not going to go with you on that, chris. i will say this. dick durbin did an excellent job of pointing out that there is no valid reason why he being the attorney general should object to don mcgahn coming before the congress and testifying. >> is he definitely going to testify before your committee? >> i don't know, but i urge him to i hope he was watching today's testimony. i would think and i would assume that certainly the mueller team, if they watched today's testimony, would know there are clearly other versions of this report and the process of the investigation and the underlying evidence and would hope that they would make themselves available to the united states congress and the people of our country to expose the truth about the evidence and the

investigation and what exactly it is that they were trying to communicate in the publication of that report. it is my interpretation and i think many of us that report waswas wassa an indication to look at the information and begin a process. >> most people who watch this program thought that the mueller report was going to be the first step congress would look at it. it would be a in terms of impeachment proceedings. the attorney general said no, it's in my court. it's my baby, as he said. i will decide. >> interestingly enough, what he failed to indicate and i think it remains a reasonable belief for us to understand that it was the office of legal counsel's opinion about the ability to indict a sitting president that may have been the one reason why the mueller investigation did

not result in an indictment. i think it's very reasonable to believe. nothing that contradicts that belief. >> i'm sorry about that metap r metaphor. i have been admonished. i heard that phrase used in this context. let me ask you about this stonewalling and your questioning of the attorney general. do you think it has something to do with the fact that he's not showing up in the house tomorrow. now he's not going to show up before the house judiciary. he doesn't like tough questions. >> i have a great sense of confidence in the ability of that committee and the chairman nadler to do whatever is necessary to make sure the american public has as much informs as they deserve and there is transparency and congress has the full ability to exercise the responsibility of oversight. >> do you think nancy pelosi,

the speaker, has many people said let's not do impeachment now and let's get more information. the administration is stonewa stonewalling on all the subpoenas and all the document requests. even the very statutory right of the congress to ask for the president's tax returns under 1924 law. they are stonewalling it. is this moving towards a situation where the only weapon to use a tough term, that congress has left is impeachm t impeachment? >> i don't think we exhausted everything yet. each day reveals a new angle and a new concern. my perspective is let's take it one day at a time. >> last question. looking at the report as i'm sure you have done because we haven't had a chance to look at it, the experience by the russians established by indictments, multiple indictments of russians, it

happened. sweeping attempt to intervene in our election process. a reality. do you believe that the trump people played ball with the russians in the '16 campaign? >> it defends on how you define that. they were aware of what the russians were doing and they were fully prepared to receive the benefit of what the russians were doing. as a next step, it is incumbent on congress and this attorney general and all of us to say that any campaign that plays with a foreign government and benefit from that foreign government's interference in one of the pillars of our democracy, our open and free elections, there should be severe and grave consequence. fundamental issue which is the issue which is the strength of our democracy and anyone running for the highest office of this land and purports to be a leader

should not be complicit with an adverse aerial country under mining who we are as a nation. >> member of the senate judiciary committee and candidate for the presidency of the united states. >> thank you. >> general barr continuing to distort and deflate the mueller report and never said the president did anything wrong. what he said mueller got wrong about the russia report. lots to talk about the way he intended the report. when are we going to hear from mueller. the plaintiff cry from president trump. where is my roy cohn. much more ahead on a very busy district attorney. stick with us. y busy district attorney. stick with us.

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think about what you want to say before you say it. or send it. here'sshow me making it. like. oh! i got one. the best of amy poehler. amy, maybe we could use the voice remote to search for something that you're not in. show me parks and rec. from netflix to prime video to live tv, xfinity lets you find your favorites with the emmy award-winning x1 voice remote. show me the best of amy poehler, again. this time around... now that's simple, easy, awesome. experience the entertainment you love on x1. access netflix, prime video, youtube and more, all with the sound of your voice. click, call or visit a store today. attorney general william barr acted like a defense

attorney and his client is president donald trump. he and not mueller was the man in charge. >> his work concluded when he sent his report to the attorney general. at that point it was my baby. >> testifies my baby. nearly six hour testimony he explained why trump had the right to do what he did. >> you think he fully cooperated to destruct a former aide to step down the investigation and declare the president did nothing wrong? >> i don't think -- well, obviously since i didn't find it was obstruction, i felt like the evidence could not support. >> i'm asking is that full in cooperating? i'm not asking is that obstruction. >> here fully cooperated. >> for came hours after the news that robert mueller objected to

barr's representation of the report, absence the presence of mueller himself. he was free to characterize the letter. >> it was an extreaaordinary ac memorializing in i know of no other instance of that happening. do you? >> i don't consider bob a career prosecutor. the letter is a bit snitty and it was rwritten by one of his staff people. >> on the record of his special counsel. mazie hirono from hawaii tore into the torn general. >> mr. barr, now the american people know that you are no different from rudy giuliani oracle know an conway or any people who sacrifice their once

decent reputation for the grifter who sits in the oval office. you said the job of attorney general is not the same as representing the president. you know the difference, but you have chosen to be the president's lawyer and side with him over the interest of the american people. you used every advantage of your office to create the impression that the president was cleared of misconduct and selectively quoted from the counsel's report, taking the most important statements out of context and ignoring the rest. you put the power and the authority behind a public relations effort to help donald trump protect himself. >> for his part, president trump was more than thrilled by barr's performance that the attorney general was really, really solid and did a great job. former federal prosecutor and michael schmidt and david corn, mother jones washington bureau

chief. i want to go with michael schmidt. this statement by the attorney general was pretty -- he said it's my baby and i'm in charge. mueller is finished. i guess it's a screen writer for a movie. i'm the boss. is that the way it works that the special counsel has no legacy role for having the two-year long report? >> not when mueller is not speaking up. some critics of mueller would say the fact that he did not have a facing effort during his time as special counsel and never spoke publicly and never heard his voice, they allowed barr to move into the vacuum. barr is showing himself as incredibly capable in ways that jeff sessions was and matt

whitaker, his predecessor and helping to protect the president crafting it in a way that is digestible for the average person to understand. we have not seen a cabinet member that the president has so effectively communicate and operate today in the president's effort as we did. i thought that was significant. very, very different that what we usually see. >> when the report came into the hands ever mueller. he saw the 10 examples of where the president obstructed justice and he saw the summary that said i can't exonerate him and he re he'sled. >> not only did he overrule, no way could he have read that over the weekend and digested it. he didn't read any of the underlying evidence. you know what else is shock. he didn't call mueller and discuss it. if you take a case and say i'm

going to do x, we talk about it. what about this or how did this happen are you sure this witness is -- he did none of that. the conclusion, he figured out what he was going to say and it didn't matter what mueller said in the underlying report. that's what was made so clear by senator harris's questioning. >> i'm struck that he will say mcgahn will not testify. he testified under oath to the mueller commission and saying no, we can still reach out and pull back in and tell him not to testify. >> they can try to do that. it may be up to don mcgahn to call and testify. we are going to have the same fight perhaps or whether robert mueller testifies. there is a lot of questions barr

raised in the meeting or what was memorized. when senator blumenthal said there were notes to that meeting and he said can we get them. barr said why would i give them to you? >> pretty daring. >> very daring. a lot of things that happened, we could spend the whole night talking about. what we will see on this front, the tax returns and other things, very major constitutional clashes when congress tries to get information and will barr come and testify before the house judiciary and put it off tomorrow and come back in a week or two. they may try to turn our constitutional order upside down in which they don't cooperate with any oversight. >> the special counsel's report listed 10 instances where the president may have obstructed justice. he cannot indict, but they have

a to play in that investigation. let's watch. >> i don't think bob mueller was suggesting that the next step was for him to turn this stuff over to congress to act upon. that's not why we conduct grand jury investigations. >> that's exactly what the report says. he goes through each of these instances and he finds substantial evidence of several things. one of which is the attempted firing of muler and the other is to try to get mcgahn to lie and the 30 is to try to get sessions to control the size and scope. from 50 ways on sunday from 19,000 footnotes, this is up for congress to decide. i cannot decide as a matter of rule. when barr says to everybody, no, that's not what he said. it's black, white, raining, not

raining. it's bizarre. >> here took it away from the zoor and said i'm going to judge. >> what happened is bill barr became sarah sanders with more graph tas. it was spin and saying things that were not true. >> trump loved it. stick around. stick with us. when we come back, more on the attorney general's sort of testimony including trying to figure out if the u.s. attorney understands the difference between surveillance and his favorite word, and trump's favorite word, spying. back after this. back after this. leave no man behind. or child. or other child. or their new friend. or your giant nephews and their giant dad. or a horse. or a horse's brother, for that matter.

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welcome back to "hardball." attorney general barr has been criticized for sounding more like the president's personal lawyer. he has been called out for parroting the talking points out of the white house about no collusion and spying on the campaign trail of donald trump. today barr defended his use of the word spying to describe fbi surveillance of the people connected to the trump campaign in 2016. >> i don't think the word spying has any pejorative coloneltation at all. it doesn't have synonyms because it's the broadest word incorporating covert

intelligence collects. i'm not going to back off the word spying. the outrage is commonly used in the press to refer to authorized activity. >> it is not commonly used by the department. >> it is commonly used by me. >> his word choice has no negative constation. here's what he talked about in front of congress. >> i think spying on a political campaign is a big deal. it's a big deal. generation i grew up in is the vietnam war period, people were all concerned about spying on antiwar people by the government. >> back with me is michael schmidt and david corn. this use of the word spying.

this talks about the deep state and the bad guys and the enemies of donald trump. >> he sword of strataled both sides of this. he has said he knows of no illegal spying that has gone on. he acknowledged this is something that the inspector general is looking at. he knows how to speak about it in a way that resonates with the president. he doesn't deviate too far from that and could put an end to all of this and say i understand people may interpret that word one way, i'm not going to use it like that. he is someone that likes to stand where he stands and is going to defend what he does. it allows him to keep up the notion in the conservative press with the emphasis being put on this inspector general's investigation and how the fbi handled the investigation into

the trump campaign. back in 2016. there is a lot of anticipation there and this stoked it. >> i watched the hearings and i get the feeling that there will be a turning and get the sense they are going to turn. the republicans on the committee in the senate judiciary committee have already turned am they will try to say they are successful stifling or suppression of the mueller report. they did halfway. they reduced had his firepowerm they will go back to hillary and the e-mails and how this investigation began. >> yes and no. they are putting their fingers in the dikes trying to keep the mueller report at bay and tax returns at bay and all this. where is the source of information here? house democrats. 3% of americans read the report.

you put don mcgahn on tv and you get him talking about the story. you call don, jr. to talk about the trump tower meeting. none of the investigations we have seen on the hill had law r hearings about this. why was he setting up meeting with putin's office in august of 2016. when he was a candidate, he was told the russians were doing this. there is a lot more to come on the story. it's not just in the hands of the republicans and the jet and bill bar justice. >> that's great as a concept, but most of the people are not going to come and they will drag it out. what's going to happen when the house democrats try to push the subpoena. bill barr will enforce it? no. it's going to go to the d.c. courts and be tangled up until the election. >> in the "new york times" op ed, james comey calls out

william barr and rosenstein's defense of the president and what it reveals about this. to stay with trump, you must be seen as on his team. you must make compromises and praise his leadership and timeout his commitment to values and then you are lost. he has eaten your soul. that's strong stuff from comey. he has eaten your soul. >> so maniy is someone who confronted this over the months of thing administration and did not give into the president. asking comey for his loyalty and asking comey to get out the word that he was not under investigation. holding firm on that until exactly two years ago this month where he fired him. the disclosures leading to the toilet of mueller and the obstruction. it's all coming full circle.

comey has experience and was not someone that gave in. it's interesting that we don't always hear from comey speaking in this detail. they wrote about this in his book. he didn't go into the complete impact that the president can have on you when you are a subordinate and he's the president of the united states. >> people have chosen sides. thank you. up next, it looks like the u.s. attorney general had enough of answering questions before congress. now, he won't testify anymore. no more scheduled meeting with the house judiciary. he said no. will democrats take this lying down? don't go anywhere. ying down don't go anywhere. this is the durabed of the all-new chevy silverado. the bed is huge. it offers a built-in 120 volt outlet. man: wow. plug that in for me. various: whoa! holy smokes! and the all-new silverado has more trim levels than any other pickup. whoa! (laughter) oh wow! woman : there's something for all of us. man 2: it's time to upgrade. get 0% financing for 72 months

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with congress by declining to testify before the house tomorrow. barr notes to taking questions from counsel on that committee's staff. jerry nadler said he wouldn't immediately subpoena barr if he didn't appear. >> the committee has the right to determine their own procedures. the attorney general has the nerve to try to tadictate our complete stonewalling of congress period. >> nadler said contempt proceedings. in this statement a spokes woman called the conditions unprecedented and unnecessary saying he is happy to engage with members of congress on the report. nadler was not surprised he didn't want to submit the questions by professional

staffers. >> i can understand how given how dishonesty has been since march 24th at the latest. i understand why he is afraid of facing more effective examination. >> one of the fellow chair men said he should defy every option. that means impeachment, i believe. that's coming up next. , i believe. that's coming up next. s. don't stoop to their level. s. draw the line with the roundup sure shot wand. it extends with a protective shield and targets weeds more precisely. it lets you kill what's bad right down to the root while guarding the good. roundup sure shot wand. got weeds in your grass too? try roundup for lawns. kills weeds, not the lawn. roundup brand. trusted for over 40 years.

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welcome back to be "hardball." chairman jerry nadler said he won't immediately subpoena general barr. barr said he is not coming and he joins a host of officials who stonewalled the request for do you means or testimony. in this morning oversight chair elijah cummings said it's testing the patients of house democrats who so far resisted impeachment. >> they don't mind investigating, but when they find they have nothing to investigate because we can't get information, why bother? i don't know what the white house is trying to push or to pressure us into.

we have to use every tool we have in the tool box, whether it's impeachment or whether it's inherent contempt. i don't know. we have to. >> i'm joined by clair mccaskill from missouri and raja krishnamoorthi from the intelligence committee. i want to start with the congressman. intmation from mr. cummings that maybe this is a at what pointing thing going on right now. maybe we are getting a bring it on, start impeachments, we will kill you in the next election or are they just being arrogant? how would you describe the motive? >> a little bit of all of the above. the thing from our standpoint is are we going to do nothing or something? vindidate subpoena rights and enforce foeblks in c.

adherence contempt is something they can do without requiring department of justice cooperation is something that people are leaning towards right now. >> can they hold people in contempt and bring them before the law without the respect of the justice department? >> it's been done in the past and we have a holding cell in the u.s. capital. i'm not saying we use that, however we can exact fines against individuals and their personal capacity and make sure that people personally feel the sting of basically not complying with the subpoena. >> this is a reduction that is absurd. i don't use these conversations because i assume having lived through watergate that people played by the rules. a subpoena is honored and not

ignored. in contempt of congress is something to be feared. he said i will think about it and may 6th maybe. someone else will say that's premature and they admonish the congress to leave them alone. >> it's interesting that my republican colleagues like to weigh the constitution and talk about the constitution. our founding fathers did smart things. the coequal branches of government and the checks and balances. all the kids learn about the checks and balances. this executive branch is not paying attention. because it's really important that congress can do this. the notion that barr won't be questioned by a star member. have they forgotten the republicans brought in a staffer to question dr. ford in the kavanaugh hearings and no one

complained about that. if dr. fort who is not the attorney general can sit and take questions from a staff member, surely barr can do it in front of the house judiciary. >> i saw the same vulnerability with the hive r five-minute rule. they were hold it a short period of questioning. the most common thing i heard from kamala harris is my time is up. what's wrong with one person grilling for maybe a half hour and get somewhere. >> you can get continuity. >> why not? >> because real what barr and the attorney general wants is for the public to get the information. the public needs to have the information about whether or not he is trampling on the rule of law for politics. >> let's go to the other thing. barr is saying i'm not going to

give you the un redacted document. you are not going to get the mueller report. you would say executive session, i will give it to the chairs or ranking members. no compromise here. congressman? >> i think the question that i asked in my mind is, what are they hiding? why aren't they coming forward with the information? we know of the thousand redactions, 80% are in volume one that goes to criminal conspiracy and contacts with russians. of the 14 cases that upper referred to other jurisdictions, 11 were blacked out in the appendices of the report. more wrong-doing is being investigated in other dur jurisdictions. they don't want us to know who the targets are and what the subject matter is. >> let me go back to the

senator. thank you for coming on tonight. how did you like the senate's performance? do you have a sense that they are a good way to get the information or not? >> there were moments that were illumina illuminating. barr said i accepted the evidence in the report and didn't examine it. just accepted it as true and tried to ignore all of the damning evidence about what trump has done and how he abused the office and how he told people to lie and tried to shut down the investigation. it was really everything that is up is down and down is up. it was hard to follow. senators have a tendency to -- kamala is a courtroom prosecutor. you learn how to do cross examinations. this guy can wiggle. >> it was quite a battle and i

think she won. >> raja krishnamoorthi and clair caskill of missouri. the guy will do what he needs to do for the boss. at he needs to do for the boss.

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what we witnessed today is a vivid come to life of what this president wants in the country's chief law enforcement official.

he wants someone on sworn to protect him. there was never any doubt how much trump recented his first attorney general. what he wants in his general is what he saw in the new york lawyer roy cohen do in manhattan. he made his bones-defending shadowy defendants that entered into criminality. serving as chief counsel in the early 1950s. trump wanted a legal body guard. after learning his white house life failed to get then attorney general jeff sessions to take control of the mueller investigation. trump got what he wanted n. william barr, he a general wonderful enough to turn into trump's advantage. mueller failed to exonerate

trump on obstruction of justice, did just that. never mentioning the heard of the mueller report that began the russian government interfered in the 2016 presidential election in sweeping and systematic fashion. even roy cohn could not have protected the president with such lack of shame. all in with chris hayes starts right now. >> tonight on all in -- >> has the president or anyone at the white house asked or suggested that you open an investigation of anyone. yes or no, please, sir? >> um, the president or anybody else? >> big new questions for the attorney general as the man attempting to clear donald trump meets the senate. >> you lied to congress. you knew you lied and now we know. >> bill barr responds to robert mueller's stinging rebuke.