i think we found one time over a three-week period that any of the nature candidates. >> voters do care more about health care, but i think the point that the democratic leadership is making is that you can walk and chew gum. there are certain committees that are designated to handle issues that if this was an impeachment referral, and we don't know if it was yet, there was language in there that read as if mueller intended for congress to weigh these issues of obstruction, and that is their statutory duty to do so. and so i think that from a messaging standpoint, you have many democrats like sherry bustos, head of the dpoc, saying, for the love of god focus on health care and infrastructure, but you have the committee chairs that feel

compelled in their duty. >> this is yet another infrastructure week that ended well. >> there goes infrastructure week again. >> by the end of the week, nancy pelosi was accusing the president's attorney general of being a criminal. is there any possible way they work out the bob mueller issue in the next three weeks or is the white house strategy like we said, go pound sand, democrats, and tryo extract it out of us, because in their mind, the trump admi there is any political price to pay right now for not cooperating. >> i think that's right, there is no indication that and, therefore, no indication that bewe're going to see a big infrastructure bill. although you can't rule anything out. >> conservatives aren't going to spend $2 trillion, that's the

problem. >> reporter: the white house is digging in on this issue. i spoke to steven groves, one of the top advisers here, that sort of reiterated that point. look, they think the allegations by nancy pelosi that the attorney general was lying was beneath the dignity of their ofr office, so they are fighting back forcefully. i asked the president if he is going to exert executive privilege to keep don mcgahn from testifying. the president said we're going to discuss that next week, but again, saying overnight to fox news that it's done, he doesn't want anyone else to testify. as the president prepares to head out on the campaign trail, chuck, i think he sees this as something that fires up his base as a political strength. he gets to say he's in battle. >> donna, what's left for the democrats to do? a contempt citation. i'm sorry, nobody cared when republicans held over in contempt, right? you thought it was going to be a big moment. mueller was like, whatever. >> i'm still in the minority,

but this is why i've actually argued from the beginning impeachment proceedings. because impeachment is a process. not the articles, but you develop the record so that at the end of it, then you have the ability to at least hold the president and his cronies accountable. and without that, the public is never going to be educated. >> if the public thought it was just an impeachment process for congress, right now they think it's a removal for office. >> it's the democrats' responsibility to educate them. >> kristen welker, thank you. glad it didn't rain on you. this has been a crazy spring. up ahead, how far did the fbi go to uncover possible russian collusion? we're reporting on a covert operation on the trump campaign that made its way into the white house. plus, remember when a traffic jam was worthy of being called a political scandal? ah, the white house days of

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i was happy to see on the front page of the "new york times" for the first time where they were talking about spying and they were talking about spying on my campaign. that's a big difference between the way they've been covering, but that's a big story. that's a story bigger than watergate, as far as i'm concerned. >> welcome back. you heard it there. president trump seizing on a new story from the "new york times," using it as ammunition for his unfounded claim for spying on his campaign. "the times" is reporting that in the early investigation of trump and russia, they sent an investigator posing as a research assistant to meet with george papadopoulos in london. she was set to meet with an informant for papadopoulos. that informant was cambridge professor steven hopper whose involvement was previously known. but hopper met with papadopoulos

and both campaign ads, in fact, hopper was in the white house in 2017 meeting with peter navaro. the fbi is investigating mr. hopper's work and is investigating agents of mr. papadopoulos' activities. if you're wondering where the genesis of this story is coming from, joining me is someone who knows how the fbi conducts this investigation, a former attorney and now an msnbc contributor. this story tells us a few things we did know, steve hopper, papadopoulos' assistant. when i found out that helper, before going into a meeting at the white house before being invited to the white house, is letting the fbi know he was invited to the white house. if i was trump i would be like, oh, my god, they were spying on

me in the white house. why shouldn't you feel uncomfortable about that? >> you should ask questions. it's probably one of the most risky things the fbi does. you have to monitor them carefully, they have to check in with you. if they're acting at your direction, fine, if they're freelancing, not so fine. i think it's appropriate for the inspector general to figure out if it's appropriate. but i can tell you about the "new york times" article, if you want. >> i do, and i'm curious about it. how complete do you feel like it is? >> it tells part of the story, but here's a good analogy. let's say the dea is working an important case against a violent and dangerous drug dealer and they're working it because an informant sort of told them where to look and who was doing what. the goal for the dea would be to remove the informant from the occasion and put an officer or an agent in that person's place. you have a professional, they

can testify in court -- >> but there's some pop culture terms like a donnie brasko? >> it's not good for me because i've not seen it. >> a moderate type informant. he worked for the fbi but he ingratiated himself. >> you want to get the informant out and you want law enforcement to work the case. in terms of "new york times" reporting, it makes perfect sense to me that the two people who originally had contact with papadopoulos would be ultimately removed from the equation and you put an investigator, a trained law enforcement official, into the relationship. that's actually the proper thing to do. >> bill barr keeps calling it spying. he's the attorney general, so this has now put a law enforcement figure on top of that word. is there any part of this that you would say is spying? >> no, this is a tried and true investigative technique. the fbi doesn't spy. to me spying means something

extra-legal, outside of the legal process. what they are doing is running a predicated investigation. now, they're running it with an informant which, as i said earlier -- >> would they have to get judicial information on the informant? >> no. but they would have a rigorous set of internal guidelines with a lot of vetting, careful vetting, to make sure the informant is doing a couple of things, being truthful and following the rules. and that is something that inspectors general look at. they want to make sure that federal law enforcement agencies are properly running their informants. it can be risky. but the notion that you would introduce an officer into the relationship is actually something that should give mr. trump comfort. instead of having an informant work the relationship, you're having a professional work the relationship. >> so a lot of this is going to be predicated by, was there probable cause? it struck me just today with the putin phone call at a time when the decision was made to open a

counterintelligence investigation on the president himself, and i know i'm in a separate aspect of this. do you see an incident like this, the president's calling it a russian hoax with putin who is it a fact that they interfered in the election, is that something that ends up looking like probable cause to folks that are in counter-intelligence? >> it's absolutely concerning. they would need probable cause if they wanted a warrant. but you wouldn't need probable cause necessarily just to open an investigation, to do a preliminary investigation. and by the way, you can use informants to obtain probable cause. so on the surface, i don't see anything improper, but it's always okay, it's always smart for the inspector general to make sure we're playing by the rules. >> this inspector general report, look, the president being so happy by this "new york times" article, there will be some people that think, oh, is there something being cherry

picked here? do you look at this report and feel like it's a fair reading of what's coming? >> i look at the "new york times" report and it strikes me as a normal traditional law enforcement operation. remember, russia interfered in the election. the fbi didn't disclose a word of that before the election. if they really wanted to get president trump as he seems to think they did, wouldn't they have disclosed it before the election? >> as the clinton campaign likes to point out, the fbi talked about one investigation before the election, not his. >> without picking -- >> that's the point. >> what i see happening is that they introduce the law enforcement officer to the relationship which actually gives the fbi better control over what's happening. it takes the informant and the diplomat out, and that should give the president some comfort. >> i doubt he looks at it as comfort. >> i doubt he does, too. >> chuck rosenberg, i have to leave it there, but before i go,

i want to promote something you're doing. don't miss the first episode of "the oath." it's chuck's podcast. subscribe today. the comey interview in particular very good. while you're at it, don't forget to prescribe to the chuck toddcast. up ahead, forget podcasts, we've got some burning tv. before he was a presidential candidate, he was a public access tv star. bernie's world. how sanders' past could be a problem now for his future. r hi. so no matter what, you're guaranteed to have a perfect drive. [laughter] (vo) go national. go like a pro.

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a 2020 vision. bernie sanders' old issues are being treated as new again. >> who knows about cocaine? anyone ever seen cocaine? >> yes. no. >> hold it, one at a time. what about cocaine? good thing, bad thing? >> that was then burlington mayor bernie sanders on his "public access" program in the late '80s. that's just one of the intriguing stories from sanders' past. that was actually reported during his last presidential run. that is now popping up again, like his conservative voting record on guns and his honeymoon in the soviet union. >> you know what i would love to think? sometime in the future, i would like to see families, your mothers, your dads and maybe yourselves go to the soviet union and learn about that country and people from there

come to here. >> but unlike the last time, voters are more than likely to put sanders' past record under a microscope. at this point in 2015, sanders trailed hillary clinton by 42 points. this time he's considered one of the front runners. and there are many more candidates to choose from with the frontrunners target on his back, the sanders baggage from his past could weigh a bit heavily. just a reminder, his message may be similar, but 2020 is going to be very different for bernie sanders than it was in 2016 because of that target. we'll be back with more on that and more 2020 after the break. r♪ (announcer) people with type 2 diabetes are excited about the potential of once-weekly ozempic®. in a study with ozempic®, a majority of adults lowered their blood sugar and reached an a1c of less than seven and maintained it. oh! under seven? and you may lose weight. in the same one-year study, adults lost on average up to 12 pounds. oh! up to 12 pounds? a two-year study showed that ozempic® does not increase the risk

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i happen to believe that our trade policies over the years have been a disaster for workers in this country. if you had the job loss as a result of nafta which joe voted for, joe is a friend of mine, and we're going to have this policy discussion in a very civil way. but joe voted for nafta, he

voted for pntr with china. add those two trade policies together, you're probably talking about the loss of 4 million jobs. >> welcome back. that was bernie sanders hitting fellow presidential candidate joe biden on trade last night. msnbc chris hayes. the 2020 campaign is shaping up quite a bit differently for bernie sanders, because this time people are taking him as a potential nominee. political experts are back to talk some 2020, heidi, don na ad michael. it's funny what seems new to people. we went through those tv shows at n brbc news four years ago. they were crickets of interest. we understand at the time that his going to soviet union and the gun issue didn't get the same attention. hillary clinton tried to go after him. it all looks different this time. >> we're trying to take him more

seriously. i think last time we wrote some of those stories -- >> we did this work, and this is sort of on the idea that we didn't. >> it just seemed to matter less. >> it just seemed to matter less. >> i had a question today about his gun record. especially now with young voters, i think there is every reason we should write that story again, because a lot of those young voters who are now powering that movement don't know about that record. so those stories will be written and they'll be elevated in a way that they weren't in the last cycle. >> you know, don, i find what bernie did with biden interesting just like how i found what biden did a few weeks ago. bernie and biden really need each other right now. i think they're their best asset which, if they have this fight, there is no oxygen for anybody else, and more importantly, they neutralize the issue that i think is the achilles heel for both of them. their age. >> that's true, and i think the

fight they each have waged in different ways against the president really sets them up, and then nobody gets to talk about the rest of the field. here's the challenge, i think, for bernie. he's got a lot of other people down there both pulling away at his natural base that are not the same as biden. and so he's got to distinguish himself, and i think -- we'll see, but there are some things that are being elevated now, like this gun issue, that really didn't have any resonance in the 2016 campaign, and this campaign is going to be all about that. >> welcome to 2019 where two candidates in their 70s are rehashing issues from the '90s. this is a reminder that these are very, very old candidates. >> putin is very grade school. >> that's right. and energetic in the party right now. what's crucial in the republican party is looking at the split. everything in the democratic party is younger and not these

guys. >> i was reminded looking at those things, there is some sanders supporters who want to relitigate 2016 and said, if he would have been the nominee, he would have beaten trump. i look at some of those, and i don't mean to assume that i think voters would react in certain ways, but how many of you want to go to the soviet union in 1987? i mean, you know, i think they would have hammered and sickled him to death. >> you see where this is going. this is the same thing that would have happened in 2016, which is that he lines up so perfectly with the label they put on every single democrat. that he honeymooned in the soviet union, and there was video of him today running around shirtless doing shots with a bunch of russians. >> it's the only way they do shots in russia, apparently. shirtless. >> donald trump is the cartoon image of a plutocrat, bernie sanders is the cartoon of a

liberal. >> you understand that republicans want him as a nominee. >> for democrats, that is why that vote that bernie got in 2016 is split in a lot of different ways. there was not the kind of focus and we're going to have that in this campaign. >> there was a posting today of an interesting story about kamala harris. i think we were all thinking this, and yet she had an incredible moment with barr that i think served her well, but she is trying to find what is going to be her non-prosecutorial thing, right? what's going to be her issue that isn't about holding the president accountable? >> well, i think that there is -- you know, the problem for her in terms of defining herself, but i do think that this campaign is going to be a campaign of a lot of different moments for candidates, and the question is how much they can hold onto, and for kamala, it's interesting, because when joe biden got into the race, you also saw these polls come out

about where the black vote is lined up, and it's not necessarily lined up yet behind kamala harris or cory booker for that matter. >> some of that was the same way with clinton and obama, in fairness. once obama proved he could win, something changed. i do think she's got -- you know, i agree with you about these viral moments but she's got to find an issue. >> black voters didn't vote for barack obama just because of the color of his skin, and they're not going to do that today, especially today. she's got to give them something to line up behind. let's face it, joe biden has done the legwork. he was obama's wing man. he's got many, many allies in the critical first voting state of south carolina, and so it's unclear that -- when you said "yet," i don't know that it will happen unless there are those issues that bring black voters over. >> michael steele, the president is at 45 or 46%. is it resilient or not enough?

>> i think it's extremely resilient. it is proven resilient in the face of gaffes, misstatements, statements of fact. john mccain stuff. it's been incredibly resilient -- >> can it grow? >> it's a pretty hard floor and he grows by subtraction. he grows by taking votes away from the democratic nominee. he can't get a mandate by himself, but he can make the other guy unacceptable, or other woman. >> heidi, donna and michael, thank you. up ahead, my interview with bridget kelly. plus, why i'm obsessed with a swarm of bees. obsessed with a swarm of bees.

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kraft. for the win win. the 2020 truth that really stings. michael bennett. >> michael bennett. >> booker. >> buttigieg. >> biden, bernie, buttigieg, beto, booker, bennett, maybe bullock and de blasio. see what i did there. the 2020 candidates are swarming with bees. they're underrepresenting our candidate names. it has to stop. >> english, it's a great language with the best words. but if you look closer, you'll discover something bleak.

a brouhaha. a big, bad, brewing brouhaha. >> a balanced budget. >> b. sure, it starts off with one or two, then suddenly there are more. it's time for a fresh start. choose q, x and z in 2020, bringing you great words like quiche and xylophone and z zanzibar. right for scrabble, right for america. >> all right, and if you think that's bad, don't let me get started on the j's. i'm looking at you, joe, john, john, jay and julian. what?? (laughing) what??d julian what?! what?! [crash] what?! haha, it happens.

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mr. christy, you are a bully, and the days of you calling me a liar and destroying my life are over.

the truth will be heard, and for the former governor, that truth will be unescapable regardless of lucrative television deals or even future campaigns. >> welcome back. that was bridget kelly. she's the former deputy chief of staff for now former new jersey governor chris christy not holding back on the feelings of her former boss. that was made after a judge sentenced her for the new jersey political scandal that became known in the press as bridgegate. she is appealing her conviction in federal court. bridget kelly, thank you for coming on. >> thank you for having me. >> let me start with something you said in that statement after the hearing. you said essentially that chris christy was lying. what's he lying about? >> his time frame in knowing about the traffic study. he was told about it by me in august of 2013. and then seven people under oath

during the trial testified to his knowledge prior, too. so there is a lot of things that he's, you know, had a very forgetful memory about. >> why couldn't -- if you informed him in august, how did that not -- what prevented that from getting established as fact am your case and in bill be beroni's case? >> i testified in court as did bill beroni as did others. it just didn't resonate, i guess, but it was the truth, it's how it happened, and we laid out a time frame and a timeline, and that was how it went. and, unfortunately, the seven people that even testified stating that the governor had knowledge of the traffic study all are people who have done very well by the governor after their testimony. >> i want to put -- governor christie put out a statement

again after your comments, and here's what he said. it's worded very interestingly. as i've said before, i had no knowledge of this scheme prior to or during these lane realign mts, and had no role in authorizing them. no credible evidence was ever presented to contradict that fact. anything said to the contrary is simply untrue. if everything was true, why add, no credible evidence was ever presented to contradict that fact. another piece of evidence is mr. christ christie's cell phone, correct? >> they couldn't find it, and then they found it. it's remaining in a desk drawer somewhere. i'm not sure where. >> and the government was never able to go in there and find out what text messages were in there? >> to my knowledge, no. >> if what you did -- if the

governor had said, yes, i ordered this, would you and mr. beroni have committed a crime? >> when i was told about the port authority was thinking about doing this and was going to be doing this it never dawned on me that it could be a crime. why would they do that? so when i told the governor that the port authority was doing that, he was planning to do this traffic study but there was going to be some residual effects with that traffic problems being one of them, it seemed like a normal action for the port authority to study this issue. so for me, it was one of many things that i ran either by the governor or by his chief of staff, kevin o'dowd. so ones i ran it by them and they didn't seem to have a problem, i kind of thought it was a done issue. and here we are. five and a half years later and i'm looking at time in prison. >> why are you going to prison?

why is bill barone going to prison? >> we shouldn't be. other people should be in more trouble than we are. we were convicted of nine crimes to begin with. and seven of which remain. two were thrown out by the third circuit court of appeals. and we are still appealing to the united states supreme court and hope to hear on that. >> what did you do wrong? >> the easy answer is that i should have not written emails and text messages in haste. when interpreted by others, this is where i am. >> let me stop you there. when you see your text messages that say, i feel badly about the kids, i guess. >> chuck, i absolutely, i am happy to answer this.

it is all banlt we are david. there was more to this prior to these text messages. the time for traffic messages which i have owned from day one was giving david back words that he used. it was a quick way to tell him that i had spoken to those that i had to in trenton. if could i rewrite it and write time for a traffic study in ft. lee, i would like to. what would i do differently? i wouldn't trust or stay in a situation that was as unhealthy as my time, and i love my career. it was a very unhealthy situation. i worked for a bully. when you're a single mom with four kids, you're not looking to rock any boats. i did love my career. but looking back now, i trusted way too many people. do you think governor christie was ethical in did you believe he was ethical and acted

ethically before this incident? >> i might have had a big title but i did not really have a lot of, my portfolio was not as large as others. i think that there was probably some questionable things that went on. the manner in which he treated me, you know, i have two incidents that i've talked about in court and i've talked about anywhere else. he threw a water bottle at me. i'm a staff member. >> why? >> because he didn't want to be a game show host. and i set up a meeting that he told me to set up and he didn't like the way i planned for it to go. it was immediately after the fires in seaside heights. and then he told me to set up a meeting with steve phillip right after he was elected. he came in and i was told by his chief of staff to cancel these meetings and he came in my office the next day and screamed at me that nobody is entitled to, curse word, meeting.

and i don't think that's a healthy environment. at the time, you know, you're in it. you have this job. you love what you do. they're amenable to the fact that i have four children and i xheetd two hours each day, each way. i trust and believed in too many people and it didn't, you know. >> why do you think he decided it was okay for you and baroni to be the fall people? for me difference lowest hanging fruitful he had enough information that he could turn. he knew how the system worked. and unfortunately, what happened with me was that i knew i told him about this. and then all of a sudden, everybody started saying they didn't know anything about it. and i was left on an island by myself. and you know, i think had he just. sure, i knew about the traffic study. this would have all played out much differently. if there was anything that the port authority or scores that had to be settled, they were

above my head and i was not aware of them. >> did you know that this traffic study was about punishing the mayor of ft. lee in. >> i did not. we maintained a good relationship with the mayor of ft. lee. so that would be something i was not aware of. >> there is a lot of people working in government today that are political appointees, that never get elected and they devote themselves to the elected official. what advice would you have for people that work in government as political officials, but working in government? >> i love that question. and i think that you have to be just wary. if something isn't right or doesn't look right, you need to ask more questions and you can't be afraid to ask more questions. i think the world is. not because of bridgegate but i think the world in which we all work, where people work, professionally, whatever the business is, especially politics. people are starting to ask more questions and i think that's important. i didn't ask enough.

>> bridget kelly, i know you have a long way to go and i know this has been tough on your kids. >> yeah. >> good luck. stay safe and stay healthy. >> thank you so much. thank you for your time. before we go to break, i want to correct something. i made comment about the president's tweeting and i casually mentioned turret's syndrome. i'm sorry that it took the president of turrets of america to remind me. it is important that we all do our part. anyway, to the president of the association, thank you for bringing that to my attention and we'll be right back. tremfya® can help adults with moderate to severe

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that's all for "meet the press" daily. good evening. >> i'm going to be watching sunday for sure. we are covering a lot of stories tonight. new developments in the fight for congress to get donald trump's bank records. plus, michael cohen's last weekend of freedom before his three-year prison sentence begins. and deep from the vault. newly discovered video of bernie sanders's 1980s tv show. it is a must-see friday. we begin with democrats giving trump's attorney bill barr a final