that will do it for me. alex is back tomorrow. now it is time for "up" with david gura. this is "up." two months after the hanoi summit collapsed, kim jung-un puts the world on high alert test firing what south korea is calling projectiles. the latest developments and the careful response from the united states. plus president trump discusses what he continues to call the russian hoax with russia. a conversation between president trump and president putin that

lasted longer than an hour, what the two leaders talked about and more notably what they didn't discuss and a fear 2020 could be a repeat of 2016. >> he actually sort of smiled when he said something to the effect that it started off as a mountain and it ended up being a mouse. >> and the countdown continues in congress, democrats have given bill barr an ultimatum. where it may be headed. >> it is see the attorney gener misrepresent the facts, indeed lie to the congress of the united states, impeachment is they ever ohave neveever never . >> and i sit down with john hickenlooper has he makes his case to voters and to beer drinkers. >> most americans want to vote for somebody that they want to sit down and have a beer with, right? why not sit down with the guy who made the beer. >> it is saturday may 4th.

with some 20 men and women running for the democratic nomination, can we assume the field is finally set? >> we'll start off with reports that mayor de blasio apparently ready to announce a run for the white house. >> apparently not. with me now, co-host of unredacted. and now korea chair for the center of international studieses. and also senior correspondent at business insider. and also national security analyst, spokes than during the obama administration. let's start with tensions rei go nighted by north korea just two months afters collap the collape summit in hanoi, news that north korea launched several projectiles. a stark rebuke to what president trump said about relations with north korea just last week. >> i think we're doing very well

with north korea. a lot of progress is being made. when i came here, there were nuclear tests, missile tests, rocket tests. there has been no tests, no nothing. so at some point you're going to report the facts. i have a great relationship with kim jung-un. >> this morning that relationship being tested. john bolton telling nbc news the president has been fully briefed. white house press secretary sarah huckabee sanders issuing this statement late last night, we are aware of north korea's actions tonight. we will continue to monitor as necessary. south korean and u.s. authorities are working to analyze the details surrounding the launch. this is a week after kim jung-un traveled to russia by train to meet with president putin. help us with the distinction here. initially it was reported this was a missile test. and then we saw the word projectile. is there a distinction without a difference? >> i think it is a big difference here. the important thing, this is a

short range missile test. so this is c it is not a intercontinental ballistic missile test. they would have gone there, but they didn't because they still want to engage with trump. so north korea is -- what kim jung-un is doing is he wants to pressure the trump administration, right, while projecting strength at home. but we're at an impasse. no question about it. so president trump is not, you know, direcorrect when he says e is no threats. and kim jung-un wants to remind everybody what we could return to, which is 2017. >> president trump saying some day they will report the facts. so he is claiming there haven't been tests and you're bringing up the nuance as well. so that still stands. he can still say that, that they haven't -- >> exactly. and kim doesn't want to completely blow it up. kim wants to still deal with trump, so he is trying to pressure the trump administration to return to the talks. united nations agencies just came out with a report that said 10 million north koreans are dealing with food insecurity.

so north korea's economy is not doing well. kim's trip to russia, meeting with putin, did not really yield anything substantive. he needs to get something out of trump. he still thinks there is a deal to be had and the best way to get there is to pressure the trump administration by doing this. >> and the controlled tension here that kim is putting on. >> yeah, you pointed out the contrast between what trump has said and what north korea is doing. we shouldn't be surprised by that. we've been reminded that donald trump has this perverse set of incentives. i don't think donald trump's top priority is denuclearization or a halt to the missile tests. yes, all those things would be good. what donald trump wants above all else is a foreign policy win. he wants something to be able to present to his base to say look, i in-hir ratherited a bad probl made it better. he wants to camouflage over all the messy stuff, the fact that the north koreans after the hanoi summit began

reconstruction on a missile site. he wants to present it as though this was a massive success. no small wonder that on the campaign trail before the midterms, he essentially led the crowds in chants ev s of nobel, nobel. and he encouraged reports the japanese prime minister to recommend him for the nobel prize. very clear what he is doing here. >> i want to ask you about the path of diplomacy here. cindy warmbier was he speaking in washington, d.c. late last week and she talked about certain stances surrounding her son's death. i'll read a bit. there is a charade going on, it is called diplomacy, how can you have diplomacy with someone who never tells the truth. i'm all for it, but very skeptical temperature skept. he l -- vent cal. he lies. and that is referring to kim jung-un. >> and the problem is for someone who lies constantly and

a easily as donald trump does, you'd think that he could spot it in other people fast and he can't. that is heartbreaking. when otto came back, his parents did an interview that was one of the most jarring things i've ever seen about what this was like when they went up on the plane and his mother was so struck by his screaming that she couldn't go in. his father said his teeth were rearranged. this is kim jung-un. this is someone who knew what we were doing and by the way wants $2 million to bill us for his lack of medical care. but he is being naive. and ned hit the nail on the head. only difference is that it is not that he wants foreign policy, he wants a buddy, who just says i love donald trump, says i got another beautiful letter. and here we are. you joke about we're going to hear a few more days of there were no tests, but that is what we're going to hear. we'll hear congressional republicans saying projectiles

aren't missiles. god forbid on twitter you can have anyone saying they were missiles. a water balloon is a projectile. i don't want a projectile like they are testing to hit my house. i mean that will kill you. we shouldn't pretentends otherw. in fairness, everyone can vouch for that, north korea is a wicked problem. otherwise. in fairness, everyone can vouch for that, north korea is a wicked problem. so we're being my eefr abonaive >> a tough week for john bolton and mike pompeo as well. >> yeah, venezuela was a very strange case because it seemed like john bolton and the rest of the administration were really playing for an audience of one there. their messages weren't even in spanish. they weren't helpful to the people on ground. it was like what are you even doing. it was very clear that trump was sending his guys out to say show that you are tough, show that nicolas maduro can't mess with

us. we're the ones -- and there are very serious issues with venezuela, with it becoming a failed state and with the vice president's ties to terrorist groups like hezbollah, that is a very real threat and we're not engaging in any of this, we're turning it into nicolas maduro is a bad embrey and we'll get him out and these are my american guys who will do it because we're tough. this is like the simplicity of donald trump's mind. it is like stunningly simple and scary. i wish i had a joke for this, but i don't. >> i think that facial expression means we're deemed. >> so where do we go from here as you see it? there is talk from kim jung-un that he would do another summit here by the end of the year. how much of that is a distraction? >> we are at an impasse because unless we're going to give sanctions relief, and this is exactly what north korea wants, we won't get there.

so i think that we will be kind of stuck. and we'll see what the north koreans could offer up something just to have the charade continue, just look like there is going to be a deal. but if we are looking for cooperati denuclearization, we're not going to get there. >> thank you very much. and when we come back, the president who would not talk to robert mueller about president putin, does not seem to have a problem talking with president putin. we continue to get more information from the russian government than we do from the trump administration. what the two leaders said, next. . hi. maria ramirez! mom! maria! maria ramirez... mcdonald's is committing 150 million dollars in tuition assistance, education, and career advising programs... prof: maria ramirez mom and dad: maria ramirez!!! to help more employees achieve their dreams.

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welcome back to "up." president trump says he discussed the, quote, russian hoax in a phone call with president putin on friday, but one topic that did not come up in their hour long discussion is russia's meddling in the 2016 election and concern russia might try to do it again in 2020. russia news agency released this photograph of president putin on the phone call which the president claims was initiated by prud. here is what president trump had to say about their conversation. >> he actually sort of smiled when he said something to the effect that it started off as a mountain and it ended up being a mouse. but he knew that because he knew there was no collusion. >> did you tell him not to medal in the next election? >> excuse me, i'm talking. i'm answering this question. you are very rude. >> did you tell him not to medal

in the next election? >> we didn't discuss that. >> that was the first exchange between the two leaders since robert mueller stated the russian government interfered in the 2016 election in sweeping and systemic fashion. chris wray warned things could get worse in 2020. >> our adversaries will keep upping their game, so we are very much viewing 2018 as just kind of a dress rehearsal for the big show in 2020. >> the panel back with me including a professi including a professor of law. ned, we were introducing some lingo here. what is the message here? president trump making this phone call discussing what he did. i should say we used to get official readouts of the calls. we don't get those now, we get the tweets. >> kremlin put out an official readout and what was so interesting, in president

trump's tweets, he mentioned that they spoke of the quote/unquote russian hoax. and you compare that with what the kremlin put out. kremlin put out what sounded like a pretty professional document. it said they discussed the situation? venezuela, regional issue, shared global threats. but president trump made clear to say that they talked about mueller. it was almost like the american president was much more intent on putting out russian propaganda, the russian hoax, than the kremlin itself was. but i think the much more sober -- what we should be concerned about is the sobering message that president trump by all accounts didn't bring until election meddling that chris wray the fbi director has warned of. the dni coats before congress warned of. everyone seems to be concerned about this except for donald trump. and by not bringing it up, it is not just a sin of omission, donald trump is in many ways essentially sending the signal to vladimir putin that we won't care about this, you do what you have to do and you know he what, if it works to high benefimy be

the better. >> the mixed metaphor, mountain and mouse. >> it is a mole hill. i'm glad i got to say it. >> and a clear conversation -- >> a lot about mixed metaphor, i think a lot about his inability to use email and how in jail he might already be if he could use email. i think a lot about donald trump's limitations especially when it comes to the russia situation. it is a long phone call, an hour. we definitely don't know what happened on that phone call. and russia is definitely involved with venezuela for years. so i don't know what else to say. i mean we can't believe anything that comes out of the president's mouth. >> so what is your reaction to all of this, and all the while the storm continues on capitol hill, will bob mueller be brought up to testify, will we see contempt of congress with bill barr. >> and i think it will be a great episode of the americas for next season.

that is the first thing. but it is concerning that this question of russian interference has been established by the mueller report. it is uncontroverted and yet they don't discuss it at all and the president says nothing about it. so again, i think it is an open invitation for russia or any other power to step in and interfere with the 2020 election and perhaps that is what the president wants. >> pivotin ining to capitol hil. nancy pelosi yesterday saying impeachment is not off the table, something that she has avoid tackling head on i think you could say. how does that change the conversation, how does that testimony that we heard from bill barr this week change the conversation about impeachment? >> i think in the last year, two years, there probably has been only one or two people that has done more damage than bill barr has done. you read the stories about donald trump watching the tv and cheering him on and i fine apple have a loyal a.g. this guy was screwing up left and right. he is all but daring bob mueller

to come and tell it like it is. he was making fun of mueller, subm snitty letter, not really a career prosecutor. and now the issue of not showing up to the house is a serious one. i'll be a debbie downer for a minute. as someone who workeded hill for almost a decade, congress has very little power. it is almost like a london bob about i who doesn't carbobby wh carry a gun. stop or i'll yell stop again. only three things they can do. typically they can go to the department of justice to try to compel a witness. i assume that is not going to happen. second is to go to court which would take exactly what trump wants, it will burn years. and then there is the third option that everyone is loving, this inherent contempt that the congress could physically go and get someone. and i think democrats are having this fantasy about him being arrested. it is not happening. what is going to happen now is

barr basically is calling a bluff. and the democrats are going to -- democrats in congress know this already. there is a reason why nadler is saying i'll send another letter, we'll negotiate, because he knows he has nothing after that. and in-that the democrats putting their faith in oversight and in congress, people will get a very hard civics lesson in the next couple weeks about how toothless congress can be. and how, you know, speaker pelosi is right to be cautious about impeachment. we might be on that path and we might need to step on the gas a little bit. >> and i'll ask melissa, there is a familiarity talking about robert mueller as bob, there is this open question where is bob mueller, what happens and how many agency does he have at this point. >> i actually think bob mueller is the democrats' best hope. if bill barr won't come before congress and testify, the next best thing would be to have bob mueller come before congress and talk about all of the things that bill barr won't.

and again, bob mueller is a very careful sir consu circumspect person. and that is really their last best shot here because this is usually about negotiating with the department of justice and it is clear that bill barr sdudoes want to negotiate. >> and i think congress does have another tool that we're overlooking and that is the tool of public messaging. they can go to oversight through the committees and hold consistent back to back to back to back hearings about donald trump. we have this 448 page report, some of us around the table may have read all 448 page, but i don't think that lot -- >>? will pretend to. >> but i don't think very many people beyond those at this table have. and that report is cholk full of are information. the more donald trump stone walls subpoenas, the more he intimidates witnesses, the more he pressures them not to testify, the stronger that case

is. >> the problem is both in there at the same time. because it is not just with barr. the trump white house has said no to every subpoena since january, whether it is about the clearance issue with jared, whether it is about -- anything. and it is not going to change. and the public messaging is a great point because, you know, it is very oneoff. nadler should say -- by the way i think we're lucky that jerry nadler and nancy pelosi are the tip of speer. but they should say we're having barr next thursday whether he comes or not. we're having don mcgahn the thursday after that, bob mueller the thursday after that. just keep it going, not these o oneoff could people could break the momentum. >> coming up next, the 2020 candidate who says the race could come down to the economy. my sitdown with john hickenlooper as a he tries to break out from a very crowd of candidates. y crowd of candidates

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today american capitalism has gone wrong. in so many ways. but we can rescue it.

>> next up, that is the former colorado governor john hickenlooper making his pitch to new hampshire voters friday as he makes his way across battleground states. he is polling near the bottom of the nearly two dozen candidates. he is in new hampshire this weekend meeting with voter, discussing his plan for the which i. i spent friday with the governor. and we talked for a good half hour at buttering jam. you are such an optimist when i listened to you deliver this speech, worry came across time and time again. help me square the two things. your optimism about this country and the worry that you feel, that you said you feel about the economy. >> i'm still an optimist. i can't be a successful entrepreneur without being an ocht mis optimist. persist insience and grit is whe

entrepreneur needs. >> and i see you in the center and a left ward poll. a lot of your opponents are moving more toward the left. why are you such an ardent believer that there is a space for a centrist right now? how hard is to resist that pull? >> you know, the bottom line, it is not hard to resist. i came out to colorado as a geologist. i thought i'd be a geologist my whole life. commodity prices tanked. i got laid off. and there were no jobs. and government didding in t not retrain me. i had to rein-vechts myself and i was lucky. turned out i was an entrepreneur. i was 100 times better at running restaurants than i ever was as a geologist. so my good fortune. but a lot of people don't have that option, especially

nowadays. >> you made the case that you are worried about the u.s. economy. you saw the jobs report that came out friday morning, unemployment rate we haven't seen since 1969. what do you say to an american who says why should i be worried about how things are today. >> first, after the great recession which was the result of george w. bush's approach which are very similar to donald trump's in many ways to get rid of regulation, let capitalism run rampant, we saw what happened in 2007, 2008. recovering from that great recession, it has been almost continuous increase in jobs, dropping in unemployment. i mean the economy has been going great and trump even with a gigantic borrowed tax cut which most of the companies used for stock repurchase bs didn't really help the workers, but most of that was to the largest

corporations, rich ees richest the country, and even with that, improvement hasn't changed. what was happening is continuing to happen. i'd say just because you've got stock market high doesn't mean that the country is any stronger. >> there is a big debate about whether this primary is about personality or about policy. i look at what you leased oyou friday. a detailed list of what you want do. is this about policy, is it about personality at this point? >> historically american politics has always been about both. there is policy and you've got to know what you're doing. your policy has to make sense. but in the end, historically most american want to vote for somebody that they want to sit down and have a beer with, right? why not sit down with the guy who made the beer, right? seriously. i think there is a level of people vote based on likability as much as they do policy.

>> is post-trump washington something that can be changed were there to be a democratic president? >> i learned something, we had the worst flood in the history of the state in 2013 in colorado 13 people were lost. and governor from vermont had had a similar catastrophic flood a couple years before. and he called me while the flood was still happening. and we talked for a little while and i said have you got any advice. he said when you go through the worst that people can imagine, don't promise that you will get it back to where it was. promise that you will get back to something better than what you had before. and i think that when you look at what donald trump has done to our international relations and 1,000 jobs unfilled in the stapt department rig state department right now, and i was at the munich security conference and people in nato didn't know who to call in the u.s. government anymore, they

have no contact point at all, these are senior diplomats, it is a train wreck. but we were struggling, we had real challenges before. this might be the perfect opportunity to come back and rethink how do we make it better. just after a natural disaster, i think it is fair to say that president trump is a form of a natural disaster in very real way, let's go back to a better place and take the opportunity to rebuild our structures and our framework and get more people together on it. >> i want to ask you about the timing of this. he is releasing this economic plan a day when trump is trumpeting how great the economy is. here is a guy looking for his lane. waiting for his breakout moment. this i guess could have been it. he has a small business background. yet on the day he announces this plan, you get the report that unemployment is as low as it is and the economy at least in that way is doing well. >> but what you have to say is that unemployment is low, but

what are the jobs doing for americans. are these jobs allowing americans to feed their family, buy a home, build equity. and you also have to remember that the jobs report is a lagging indicator. so what is coming in the future. we know that the white house seems to be scared of what will happen in 2020 to the economy because they keep pressing to keep interest rates low. and all these economists are forecasting that the economy could slow down in 2020, 2021, so donald trump doesn't want that to ruin his election or potentially his second term. so this is why he is putting so much pressure on the fed. john hickenlooper is not spli splicing those hairs and he is also not getting into the weed of anti-cooperate corporatism. he doesn't want to go into that. and i don't think that you can stay in the middle. i think that americans -- you bring up the financial delay sis, you brought up with george w. bush did, i come from the

world of wall street, i will bring up what wall street did. that was fraud. and nobody went to jail for that and nobody was punished for that. so until you address the fact that we have corporate america that is a bunch of rent seekers and that we need to change our laws and restructure the way that we think about antitrust and capitalism, you are not going to really speak to the american people. because they have jobs. their jobs just aren't doing anything for them. >> he took a stand in the speech that he gave against democratic socialism, against socialist ideals. what do you make of that move? instead, he is jabbing the left. and there is a compulsion here as you look at the democratic field to embrace some of those issues like medicare for all. >> yeah, governor hickenlooper more than anyone has sort of epitomized the inability to get the socialism straight. it was on msnbc where he was asked if he was a capital list and he couldn't bring himself to say yes. >> he did declare yesterday that i'm a capitalist as it were.

>> that should be a gimme. like is he a capitalist. is your name john. he did start a business and he is pro government and there is a way to say capitalism is part of america. should we let it run amok, should we let taxes be inverted? of course not. he is trying to find that lane. and frankly, when i see him running, everyone jokes about, oh, there are 20, 21, 100 different candidates. he is in public service for the right reason. everyone is inputting discussion. if his discussion is wage growth and whether the obama economy is still humming along, then that is great. no harm no foul. but they do -- sort of ironic these guys are all running to challenge donald trump who says the dumbest things on an hour by hour basis and they are all worried about what they say. just let it rip.

>> and to your earlier point, elizabeth warren who is progressive has no problem saying that she is a capitalist. she knows what she is doing on this topic. and it seems like hickenlooper is still a little confused. maybe it is because elizabeth warren keeps handing out policy papers to americans telling them she has the answers which is great because somebody needs to, but you you've got to be pretty firm on this. >> and the idea of the republican attack and everybody needs to get it right. >> we'll play more of the interview in the next hour, his thoughts on the mueller report and the push to impeach president. and tonight pete buttigieg will sit down on saturday night politics. and up next, there could be a vote next week to hold him in contempt of congress. many wondered what happened to bill barr. several sendicentrist democrats backed his nomination now filled with regret. stay with us. hey!

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we have a document that shows over 200 connections between a presidential campaign and foreign adversary. sharing information that would be legal if you did it with a super pac, we know that -- >> what information was shared? >> polling data was shared, sir. it is in the report. i can cite you the page. >> bill barr questioned about the contents of the mueller and that the trump campaign shared polling data with a man linked to russian intelligence. barr saying he had not reviewed the underlying evidence that mueller relied on. in the huff post, barr's mueller report testimony has everyone wondered what happened to him. the man that many previously viewed him as an institutionalist is facing calls for resignation from democrats who see him as little more than donald trump's coverup man. matt miller in that article telling the you author the

evidence was sort of staring us in the face that he got picked to land the plane for the president and he did. ryan rhyme riley for huff post joining us. a great piece. and as you note, it took just 76 days for this metamorphosis to happen. what is your sense of what happened? >> yeah, i mean it is sort of like line up with what the washington legal establishment has gone through. there are certainly some republicans saying this is bad the way barr a has been handling this, but a lot of people have just been going along with this and been com police it complici is handling this. >> and this is something that we've seen with many people around donald trump. i think he said he eats your soul was the kicker of that piece. your sense of what happened. you heard the calls from people who have known bill barr, who have made that argument that he

had been attorney general, he had respected reverence for the institution and were fairly comfortable with him being in that position again. >> garbage, garbage. it was crap when it was said and crap today. the only power that he answers to is the fact that there is power and they want to keep it. this man wrote a memo to audition for this job arguing that the president couldn't be indicted, that the president enjoyed unfettered executive power. what did we expect? all these people who thought he was an institutionalist, garbage, garbage, garbage. >> and ned, were you one among them, your thoughts on what he said about the fbi during that testimony. >> i think that there is a misimpression that bill barr leveled only one lie before congress. you look at his record over the past six weeks or so, and you see a series of lies that i think point to that very point. it was all garbage. he said that mueller's decision was left up to him and that is why he took that on.

he said that mueller he's decision had nothing to do with the underlying olc opinion. he claimed that the white house fully cooperated with the probe which we know donald trump refused to speak to investigators. and he repeated this term no collusion, no cluks, ollusion, cluks, wh collusion, when the report made clear that it didn't examine the issue of collusion. i think what is so striking in that exchange you showed with cory booker, bill barr made the point he didn't read the underlying evidence. it seems that he habit enread the report. he did not know a key point in the report that paul manafort shared this polling data with konstanin kilimnick. how can you be surprised by that when you were rendering the judgment on that very report. >> and what are you hearing about why bill barr took this job? he was in the private sector, was beckoned back into government to do this. and you heard mike lee praising

the long time public servant here. he was in the private sector, he had left public service. why did he decide to come back, why did he decide it take up this mantle in. >> i think that is a good question because there are reports about him having discusseses with friends about how tough of a job this would have been to get back into. there were certainly issues in his previous tenure at attorney general, but i think overall his reputation, like we said, semi retired, in this position where he could have just gone out easily. and now this is going to completely rewrite history on barr. he will be seen sort of as this guy who was just there for donald trump. his rep pew takiu donald trump. his rep pew takitation i think major hits. >> and there are moderate democrats who backed him. joe manchin. >> from the state of my birth. >> is that right? >> yeah. fun fact about me. >> it is the mouse state. >> i mean there are a lot of

democrats who were like this is a guy who has served before, he looks like a good guy, we'll just ignore -- as a woman and as a brown person -- >> and west virginiian. >> and west virginiian, it seemed like they were supporting someone who looked like them, sounded like them, they had seen before. >> and hhad not distinguished hf well in the prior outing. >> no, not at all. and there is an amazing faith in washington for other people in washington that they feel like they have known for years. but the game has changed. so you need to look for different players. >> and we were joking with who has actually read the mueller report in the last segment. but how about this 19 page memo. when you talked to senators, are they looking at that on a different light, this unsolicited memo that bill barr then private citizen wrote to the attorney general? >> yeah, that was strange to write that memo basically laying

this out and apply turning it over to rod rosenstein during some sort of lunch he had with him when he was sort of in private practice. it was very strange and i think that that is obviously sort of a glaring sign now that he really didn't believe in the obstruction of justice investigation. and i think it is clear from his testimony that he sort of was focused on the volume two, that obstruction part of the mueller probe rather than volume one which lays out this extensive campaign. because he didn't really know the details. he was sort of fighting back and forth with the senators about some very basic details of volume one. and i think that is what reporters did initially when this report came out is sort of jump to volume two with the obstruction part and then come back to volume one. but that volume one, you have to read it, it is really important stuff that lays out this entire campaign and was really a major part of the mueller. >> thank you very much for joining us. lowest unemployment figure since 1969, but you might have missed it after the president

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jobs, high wages, big consumer confidence, major productivity, and no inflation. it's totally awesome. we're killing it on the economy. >> bill shon may be gone but his legacy lives on at the white house. the white house tweeting that video of an exuberant larry kudlow, the president's top economic adviser hours after the release of the latest jobs report. these are the headlines, 263,000 jobs created in april, 80,000 more than economists expected. unemployment at 3.6%. are those numbers the entire story. this caught me by surprise, releasing this press release, so proud of the numbers yet she gets them wrong and says 283,000 jobs were created. this is emblematic. >> this administration's press releases, i'm trying to keep my brain agile. so okay. that is a great jobs number, wonderful, the devil is in the details, a lot of people left

the work force. that was the only sad thing, lower labor force participation but again, why is the white house trying to keep interest rates low if they really believe the economy is doing this well, and the answer is the jobs number is just one indicator of what's happening in the economy. we have seen a softer housing market, we have seen other, you know, grumblings in the economy that are telling us things might not be okay and so the white house is looking at that, they're looking at the rest of the world, trying to just kind of put a band-aid over its bullet wounds and kept running. now we here in the united states are looking at the world, we're looking at our own economy and saying, okay, a slow down could very well be coming and the white house is trying to talk out of two sides of its mouth saying everything is going great. we're amazing, we are taking all the credit for this. by the way, though, we should keep interest rates low because we want the party to continue. and, you know, everybody else in financial markets is like that could be a bad idea. >> let's spend a few moments

talking about expertise. we saw the whole debate over the fed nominees and there was an amaze piece in the hill -- herman cain writing the disgraceful attack of moore is proving what trump knew, the political liberal establishment will protect the federal reserve from the growth hawks, but as demonstrated, trump is not afraid to take on the washington swamp, the president will appoint someone else as his growth hawk at the federal reserve, perhaps someone like herman cain. i love this notion of steven moore, a guy who has inhabited the heritage foundation for two, three decades. >> what is the growth hawk? i would love to know. >> rare breed. >> i think herman cain sells pizzas, i don't understand what he's saying in that. there's so much that disqualifies steven moore, more than just his crank views. >> the beauty is nominating them both at the same time.

that's beyond -- i mean, i knew herman cain wasn't qualified. >> i knew herman cain -- no, i didn't know herman cain, i went on fox against her maman cain, was sitting there thinking, if you're on with me, you should not be on the board of the federal reserves. >> i have been on cnn with steven moore, and he is a partisan hack who knows very very little about the economy and has made it very clear that he is here to do the bidding of rich republicans who want their, you know, political thoughts and economic thoughts out there. >> he comes out fine from all of this. he has been able to be on tv, as an economist. >> i go on up with david, i don't know what they're talking about. i think steven moore is just like donald trump. steven moore wants air time. steven moore wants his name out there. i have repeated it twice already, and that's giving him more than he deserves. when you talk about character assassination, steven moore is the person who wrote these

things. no one else wrote them and put them in his >> nobody asked him not to pay child support. >> you could have said ten minutes after they were each nominated they weren't going to make it, and that was like a month ago. >> let's tie this all back together from what john hickenlooper told me, he can go toe to toe on the economy, we heard linette talk about the cold water, is that where the election is going to be won or lost on the issue of the u.s. economy? >> i think these are bread and butter issues, kitchen table issues that voters care a lot about. that's going to be a big part of this. i also think this election is going to be about, i hope the trust the american people feel in their government, and if that is on the table, then i think it's a much harder road for the trump administration. if it's just about the economy, yes, it's a great economy. history suggests it's not going to be a great economy for much longer. this is almost the longest economic upside we have seen in

a while. >> are you saying it started before donald trump? >> well, i mean, thank you, president obama. thank you so much, president obama. i know we're not supposed to think about what happened before donald trump. >> there was a time. >> if the economy is going to be the most important thing in the election, donald trump's approval rating should be higher than it is, but it's not, and people are very scared about the direction the country is going. >> it's the ball game for them. which is why they're lying about numbers. >> thank you all very much. ned price, linette lopez, joining us tomorrow, a lot of great guests, kurt brabella, berit berger. today the newly ignited controversy, the latest chapter in the saga that is transformation of senator lindsey graham, and john hickenlooper on everything from

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i'm david gura we start the hour with controversy president trump ignited with his hour long fool with vladimir putin. now we get tweets from the president, quote, had a long and very good conversation with president putin. we discussed trade, venezuela,

ukraine, north korea, nuclear arms control and even the russian hoax, very productive talk. but there is one topic the two men did not discuss that is drawing scrutiny. >> did you address the election meddling issues. >> we discussed it. he actually sort of smiled when he said something to the effect that it started off as a mountain and ended up being a mouse but he knew that because he knew there was no collusion whatsoever. >> as president trump celebrated one more no collusion victory lap this time in the company of president putin, it's worth revisiting robert mueller's report. the investigation did not establish members of the trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the russian government in its election interference activities, it reads but it did establish this key fact on page one of that report. the russian government interfered in the 2016 election in sweeping and systematic fashion, an assessment that even

his staunch ally and supporter, senator lindsey graham emphasized in a rare rebuke of his pal the president, on wednesday. >> i would like to do more to harden our infrastructure because the russians did it, it wasn't some 400 pound guy sitting on a bed somewhere. it was the russians. and they're still doing it. >> as putin smiled or chuckled or laughed, president trump bristled as reporters continued to press him on the issue in the oval office. >> mr. president did you tell him not to meddle in the next election. >> excuse me, i'm talking, i'm answering this question. you are very rude. >> did you tell him not to meddle in the next election? >> we didn't discuss that. >> the question came up the day before when president trump sat down with fox news and asked if president trump warned president putin to back off in interfering in 2020. >> i don't think i have spoken about the 2020 but i certainly have told him you can't do what you're doing, and i don't believe they will be. >> have you been very firm with

the russian president on that point. >> president trump has held firm on election interference. the russians did agree with president trump's assessment of the phone call he initiated yesterday. the two heads of state expressed satisfaction with the business like and constructive nature of the conversation. that's according to the kremlin. as david graham writes in the atlantic, it is helsinki all over again. quote, he still refuses to acknowledge russian interference or do anything else about it, but don't expect this reprize to elicit the same reaction whereas trump's refusal to defend was once shocking, it has now become expected. susan del percio, republican strategist. tim o'brien is executive editor and msnbc contributor. glen kirchner a former prosecutor, now legal analyst. let me start with you and him making this phone call, president trump saying that he did this. his goal, the message, what he

was trying to communicate by placing that phone call and have this hour long, it's a long conversation. >> i think to begin with, he was spiking the football in the end zone. i think he was saying i have gotten through this event and i'm going to put it in everyone's face, and i'm going to call vladimir putin and talk to him about whatever i want. he did the same thing after he fired joe fired james comey. and gloated. >> i think the larger issue is he clearly doesn't care about national security and he doesn't care act protecting the 2020 elections from russian interference, and why is that? either he doesn't care or he knows he would benefit in 2020 from russian interference. either one of those isn't a good answer. i think secondly when you move beyond the elections themselves, what he is doing is opening a door to putin to flagrantly think about saber rattling in eastern europe, you know, remember russia moving into crimea was spurred along by the fact that he resented nato inviting ukraine into a membership there.

and all of the states have been concerned. sweden is worried about that. that's why putin has been interfering in sweden's elections. i think what he has done goes beyond what trump has done, beyond the u.s. elections, he's allowing putin to have this sense of himself on the world stage that is going to be unfettered and unchecked by the u.s. military, the u.s. national security apparatus, and good faith, and i think that's problematic. >> and putin loves that, by the way. putin loves that because he is weak domestically and every time he can look like he is standing with the president of the united states and looking his equal, to add that he had met with kim jong un, and then was relaying messages, now all of a sudden you have two of the worst dictators out there basically getting recognized and being seen on even ground with the president of the united states. and i think to tim's point, it

goes to the president just doesn't care or respect what it means to be president of the united states of america. he doesn't care about its citizens, he only cares about himself. >> alexa, i made a joke about the fact we used to get read outs and now we get tweets. it raises two serious issues, it's another conversation that we have no sense or no record of what the two of them talked about, at least not one that's at all publicly digestible. the second is when you got a read out in the past, the past administration, it was an opportunity for the administration to say what they disagreed about and safe to say when it comes to venezuela, when it comes to ukraine as tim brought up, there are a lot of things the u.s. could have pushed back on the readout that would have been useful internationally. >> and that's what's so interesting to tim's point about sort of how president trump may be validating president putin on a larger global scale. the u.s. and president putin are at odds on venezuela because they don't want the u.s. interfering in that election, and on north korea because they want us to continue to lift sanctions on north korea and to my understanding, that is not what we are doing, and that is

not what we want, and a readout from the white house like you were saying we previously got would have been a helpful thing for them to paint the narrative about how president trump is pushing back on these things that we are very much involved in, and that we are very much following that president putin want that is we don't want. when president trump was running for president, all had e talked about was easing the relationship between the u.s. and russia and we are seeing in the lack of readouts and in the hour long phone calls and in the way he talks about president putin or at the g20 summit, leaves out note takers, he wants to handle this on his own as the kremlin calls it in a business like manner bat at the end of the day, donald trump is a businessman who wheels and deals in personalities over politics and that speaks to the lack of readouts, because he wants to fix it alone, and he's doing that in these interpersonal ways rather than a political way. >> how dispirted are you, joining a chorus of people

saying this is a problem, it's going to be a problem as we approach the next election. this isn't a partisan issue. the intelligence community dwredwree agrees on, and -- agrees on, and the president continues not just to ignore it and full count it. >> can i go hyperbolic this morning. >> this is another reason impeachment hearings should have opened weeks ago. we just saw the president of the united states tell the american people, i shared a laugh with vladimir putin over essentially what bob mueller found to be sweeping systematic interference in our elections. he smiled or he giggled or guffawed, whatever he did. think about the implications. he's telling vladimir putin, keep it up, 2020 is coming, i'll be up for reelection, not only is he not trying to deter it, he's encouraging it so 2020, if he is still with us, he could be

reelected with russia's help. let's look forward to 2024, though, what does it mean for 2024, if we are unfortunate enough to have trump for another four years, who might russia support in 2024? lindsey graham, i don't know, jim jordan, maybe steve king or should we cut right to david duke because this is the tone the president is setting. he's welcoming and encouraging russian interference in our elections. the time is now. >> tim, what does a john bolton say monday morning when he walks in the oval office after this phone call took place, after what we saw with north korea overnight, he, mike pompey yoer -- pompeo, how can they possibly react? i don't want to go as far as how do they continue doing their jobs, but maybe that's the question. >> and i think that's the trick for anybody working in the trump administration is if you are a

principled person with a velocity on how the world works and you have a set of values and a skill set you bring to your job, do you walk into the oval office and speak your mind, and talk in a sensible way about what u.s. policy looks like or do you think about the fact that trump puts people on the plank every day. if you speak your mind and have a difference with the president, he's likely to nuke you. i think if you're john bolton you probably try to leverage this through jared kushner or you probably try to find these end runs to get the president's ear. you know full well if you go right into the president's face, he will probably stop talking to you. the problem with donald trump as a manager is he doesn't authentically recruit topnotch people who he empowers to speak their mind because he's not intellectually sophisticated, so he breeds this environment of insecurity around him. i think that pompeo, and bolten have made their own beds. they chose to join this

administration, but if they thought they were going to be able to enact or see their values in the world through donald trump they're going to be sorely mistaken. >> i want to get everyone up to speed on a story that broke overnight. a 737 sliding off a runway into a river. this is a live look at the plane in the st. johns river. all 143 people aboard miami air international flight survived. 21 were sent to local hospitals. none with critical injuries. that plane was flying from guantanamo bay in stormy weather last night. the ntsb is investigating. we'll stay on that story over the course of the day. he called donald trump a bigot, crazy and unfit for office two years ago and now heaping praise on the president at every turn. the curious case of lindsey graham, next. frgz the curious case of lindsey graham, next frgz -- next. -- next here's one you guys will like.

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republican senator lindsey graham has changed his mind, ended up inviting robert mueller to testify before the senate judiciary committee, asking whether he would like to comment on any of attorney general's bill barr's characterizations. senator graham has been one of the president's most vigorous defenders. we saw that this week when bill barr testified. graham made numerous false and misleading statements about the russia investigation including this claim on obstruction of justice. >> as to obstruction of justice, mr. mueller left it to mr. barr to decide. he said, mr. barr, you decide.

>> that's false. robert mueller said it should be handled by congress, not bill barr. he said there were zero instances of trump impeding mueller: that is false. we know the president did try to have him removed. and the senator contradicting himself when it comes to subpoenaing the president. listen to him speak about democrats versus his comments in the late 1990s during the clinton impeachment. >> our congressional subpoenas optional? >> no, no, you go into court and you fight it out. you just can't subpoena a person because you're a member of congress. you can't ask for a person's tax returns because you want them. you got to have a reason. >> richard nixon as president failed to comply with subpoenas of congress. the day richard nixon failed to answer to that subpoena is the day that he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from congress. >> let's take a moment to note how much of senator graham's feelings about the president have changed. here's what he said during the

2016 presidential campaign. >> he's an op portunist. he's a race baiting, sooe knxen bigot. he doesn't represent my party. i think he's crazy. i think he's unfit for office. >> i want to turn to the panel in a second. first let me go to this great political cartoon of the atlanta journal institution here looking at president trump doing some wall building as mike put it there, as he puts bill barr on the top of so many others. susan, let me start with you, and let's talk about that transformation. we talked about bill barr's transformation that we witnessed in the hearing room this week. what do you make of the way senator graham's tact toward the president has changed. >> i used to think senator graham was a man of integrity, and had strong core republican values. it is clear that he never had it and basically fooled all of us. you can't go dfrom one position

in 2016 to where he is today and a lot of politicians are on both sides of the aisle, he was concerned about a primary. he saw what happened to his former colleague mark sanford in south carolina, and knew if he got on the wrong side of the president he would be facing a primary. that shows besides having no core values, he's a coward. >> you watched the hearing i'm sure, and was supposed to be in headline about the mueller report and very quickly from the opening statement that the chairman of the committee lindsey graham gave, it became focussed on the former secretary of state, hillary clinton, about her e-mails again. >> i can't help but laugh. >> don't you think it has never ended. it's just another example of how lindsey graham has become this trump acolyte, this person who will stand by his side no matter what and go out of his way to defend him. to me, it's not that surprising if you read the profile that i believe mark did with the daily

times in feb or listen to the podcast. it's incredible about what he claims nothing happened to him. what he reveals he is concerned with relevant and staying relevant, in which donald trump is the king maker of many things, and explained that politics to him is figuring out what works and what brings your desired outcomes ch one of senator graham's greatest outcomes or interests is getting reelected for a fourth term in south carolina, and he knows that president trump is the king mak maker especially over republican primaries in any number of races as we saw in the 2018 midterm elections. if he makes it through the primaries and getting reelected during the general. that is something that is weighing heavily on him, and the idea of staying relevant at a time when everyone else could turn against the president or watching fellow republican colleagues coalesce, he has made the decision, susan characterizes, cowardly to do

everything possible to stay relevant, and not anything else. >> i want to get your perspective on how this change is taking place. the transformation has taken place in the heart building, the kavanaugh hearings and saw his explosion after that lunch recess, and then at the beginning of this hearing you see him quoting liberally and out of context between the text exchanges between two fbi agents and dropping the f bomb in the course of doing that. there has been, he went back to the james comey piece that he wrote for the "new york times" this week, he's taken on some of what the president offers when it comes to personality, hasn't he? >> he becomes a kind of a prism under what happens to people who exist closely to donald trump. do they maintain a sense of themselves and their own values. we got into this earlier with the pompeo bolton discussion. i think alexi put her finger on something, lindsey graham is worried about not being relevant, and that's one of the broader long-term dangers of donald trump, he has polluted the national and civic dialogues

are what are politics, do you talk in a fact free existence that's laced with just opposition, and partisan divisions and isn't about achieving results and he's clearly throwing his hat in with that. he has other options. jim mattis showed us what some of the other options are. you can say i will be part of this agenda if i can enact my values in the world and if i can't, i will leave. i didn't agree with jim comey's perspective on barr that bill barr suddenly got bent. bill barr has been doing what bill barr has been doing for decades. he did it for george h.w. bush during the iran contra investigation. he has tried to neuter the congress when it comes to executive oversight. >> i was going to ask, you have covered the president so long, is it the people that they become these sycophants or are they weak individuals that he knows how to prey on to bring into the administration. >> it's both. if you're hitching your way into donald trump's star, what do you want out of that? if you're somebody who's a

nobody, and there's a lot of them, or if you're a third tier talent and there's a lot of them in the white house, you're getting your resume stamped. if you're somebody who wants to get an agenda, mitch mcconnell has held his nose because he can get the courts packed. lindsey graham is holding his nose for multiple reasons, he lacks a spine, he didn't stand up for john mccain, and i think he wants to stay relevant. >>st it also power, and i want to get your reaction to what happened at the end of the hearing, he leaves and tells reporters, it's over. his intention was not to call bob mueller before the committee. you have seen the letter he wrote to the attorney general and bob mueller saying that he could come and testify. what do you make of that, the power he's harnessing for this. >> it's all about power. we have seen the amazing shrinking senator, lindsey graham, and you know, as a fed for 30 years, i labored under the hatch act so i was never political and it wasn't the person i was. i got to vote. beyond that, maybe we can put a bumper sticker on our car as a federal government employee but

we're not allowed to participate in campaigning and really in the political process beyond voting, so maybe i was and remain naive because i talk to people, and i'm like, well, it doesn't seem to be about ideology because trump doesn't really have any principled ideology about anything. what in the world is driving these people? how could lindsey graham one day say trump is a cook, he's crazy, completely unfit to be president, and lindsey graham stands skpup and says that's my man. >> i don't think it's power as much as fear. if it was power, you wouldn't have mcconnell and ryan abdicating their power to the president and more or less afraid of getting tweeted, you know, president tweeting at them or having their legs cut out from underneath them. >> i think it's fear of losing power. so i think all goes back to power. >> why would they abdicate that power? >> because they want to keep it

in the long run. they want to get reelected at any cost, ideology be dammed, principles be dammed. that's the only thing they can say one thing on one tape, and another thing one day, and sleep with themselves because they want to retain that power. >> it reminds me of michael cohen's testimony, being around trump is intoxicating. that's a great way of this phenomenon, whether it's inspired by wanting power or fear, there's a sense of intoxication that some people get, especially republicans in congress being around someone like donald trump, and that's what we're seeing with lindsey graham. >> the foursome when the president goes out to golf. we head to new hampshire to check up with 2020 contender john hickenlooper as the former governor tries to set himself apart. he's willing to give up a shot

at another elected office to do it. >> are you weighing at all running for senate if this doesn't work out? >> senate would be meaningful, but i hate it. meaningful, but i hate it. this is the story of john smith. not this john smith. or this john smith. or any of the other hundreds of john smiths that are humana medicare advantage members. no, it's this john smith. who we paired with a humana team member to help address his own specific health needs. at humana, we take a personal approach to your health, to provide care that's just as unique as you are. no matter what your name is. ♪

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david gura, john hickenlooper, is in new hampshire this week, and i spent some time following him around on friday. he released the campaign's economic plan and fielded questions from voters about a number of issues including the mueller report and impeachment. topics i returned to sitting down with the candidate in a diner in nashua at the end of the day. >> a big discussion about what should happen to the attorney general and the testimony he gave on capitol hill. >> you mean what should happen after he's fired? >> my question is are you among those calling for his removal at this point? >> you know ir, i usually try t restrain those kinds of bleacher seat commentary, but you know, he is clearly not representing the american people. and that is his primary responsibility. i understand he's appointed by the president, i understand there's a relationship, but if you go back and look at what happened around watergate and there are any number of

documentaries to watch these days on cable on all of the streaming media, i mean, clearly rule by law, where the attorney general has to be, i mean, archibald cox stood up and he was responsible to the american people, not to president nixon, and we should expect no less of our attorney general today. >> nancy pelosi on friday said impeachment is not off the table, as you sit here looking ahead to the election, do you think it should be? is there a point at which the window closes and your message would be let's focus on 2020, let's stop talking about impeachment or do you think it's something that should stay on the table? >> certainly so far we're still getting information. the letter that came out this week that robert mueller wrote saying you have mischaracterized my entire report, that's an interesting new piece of information. let's see the unredacted report, why is that at least congress should get to see it.

why can't the american people see it? why can't we get mr. mueller to testify before congress? can we get the attorney general to testify again before congress? >> you talk a lot about your experience as an executive, as a mayor, as a governor, one of your proposals is to make a new federal minimum wage, make it $15 an hour, but scale to cost of living around the country as well. you have worked with other mayors in the past, as governor worked with mayors, what gives you optimism that were you to be elected president, you would be able to do what's so difficult this day and age, that's to work with the legislative branch, in other words, it seems so intractable, how do you propose to change that? >> every thinks, we are not running for president, we are in a crisis of tradition. we are more divided than we have been since the civil war, and you know, it's keeping us from addressing things like climate change or automation, artificial intelligence, what that's going to do to the workplace, and i feel i've got that track record

that everyone said was impossible, that that track record of bringing people together. when i ran for mayor, and i was at 4% for the first seven weeks. no one thought i had never run for student council or anything, and suddenly here i was, i broke out, i was ahead and people said just because you got elected you preach you're going to work with the suburban mayors, most are republicans, denver hates them, i went out and talked to the suburban mayors, we got all 34 mayors, 2/3 of them republicans or conservative independents, we got all 34 mayors to unanimously support fast tracks, 122 miles of new track. that's the only place in the country where we had, you know, a regional effort like that for something that mattered. >> you mentioned your early polling when you were running for mayor, i imagine you're aware of your polling now. >> it's almost identical. i started out at 3% for the first couple of weeks and then i got up to 4%. that's where i stayed until i broke out. you know, i feel i'm different than any of the other candidates

running. i've run a business. i was out of work for two years, i know what that means. i have put together some really successful teams both as a small business person and as a mayor and a governor and we have been able to achieve things that people thought were impossible. >> are you weighing it all running for senate if this doesn't work out? >> it's awful hard to imagine that i could be successful in a senate campaign or as a senator. what i love and what i'm willing to sacrifice, you know, i have been a public servant for 16 years, that's 70 hours a week, i can't imagine a week when i didn't work at least 65 hours, and i love it. you know, i'm not complaining u but i'm putting teams together. i'm attracting the most talented people, and i don't care whether they're republicans or democrats, tall or short, where they came from, business people, academics, nonprofits we put teams together and we decide to chae

achieve the unachievable and i hold them accountable. i love that. find that spiritually transforming. a senator doesn't get to do that. a senator has to go to washington, and it's vitally important what they do, to debate, and try to improve the laws that govern this country is some of the most important work you can do, but it wouldn't bring me any kind of satisfaction or delight, and life's too short. i'm willing to sacrifice a huge amount of my private life because i lowe what i'm doing, and i feel it's really meaningful. being a senator would be meaningful, but i'd hate it. that's a no, you wouldn't consider it. >> it's hard to imagine. >> i want to start with you, let's go back to the top of the clip we played there. there was a moment, we went to the stony field farms yogurt factory, and a woman stood up, it was more of a statement than a question. i want you to take the gloves off. when it docomes to donald trumpi want you to take the gloves off. you heard the first answer about impeachment, bill barr, he's not

attacking donald trump head on. we are seeing that with a lot of candidates, how emblematic of what we saw from john hickenlooper. >> you talked to him about carving out a centrist lane for himself, and i think avoiding attacking donald trump is a way that he's going to continue billing himself as this bipartisan human who can address this crisis of division as he referred to the state of the country. so i'm not surprised that he's not willing to sort of take the gloves off as that woman asked to fight against donald trump. he doesn't see that as his path forward. when i saw him in iowa, he was in one of the most republican counties in the state, look, there's a lot of things president trump has done that i don't necessarily disagree with, talking about different things with trade and tariffs, but he was like, you know, the way he's handled it, i don't agree with that. and i think that's how he's going to try to carve out a space for himself. i talk to voters all the time who are like democrats are too soft. they're going to get bullied on the debate stage. i want someone who's going to fight back. for the democrats that leaves a

question of do we stoop to his level or find a way to fight back that's both smart and clearly showing to voters a way toward for the country that's not necessarily just against donald trump. >> something struck me as surprising, i have heard a lot of people say, when you get out of washington and new york, people aren't talking about the russia investigation, a keen interest in the mueller report. i was surprised by how many people did want to talk about the process of impeachment or donald trump. talk about how they are distinct. i took as you're not interested in the granular part of the mueller investigation, now there's this thing you can get your arms around, donald trump's presence in the oval office. >> and we saw in 2018, people have had it with a donald trump, and they don't like the way, even if they like some of his policies, they don't like the way he conducts himself as president of the united states, so they are against him, and if there is something -- and they do believe there's certain things he has done wrong. there's no doubt, so if there's a way of punishing him, that's ha they want. they want to see that, and

understanding why you would have the articles of impeachment is a little dicey. there is something to be said with the democrats message out of washington. let's not forget, for the last six weeks, we've heard from speaker pelosi, let's wait, let's see, i don't think he's worth it. there hasn't been a strong enough message, but people are angry, and frustrated and as much as we're in a good economy right now, they're not feeling it. and while they want someone to just fight for them, they want someone to also represent them, so if it's not hickenlooper's way to fight, you can't make him a fighter, nor should you. but let him go forward with his ideas on how he can improve your quality of life and show that he cares about your values. >> last question to you, i want to ask you about policy incubation, he gives a speech on the economy is a press gaggle to the side. he admits that all the candidates are looking at proposals and borrowing a bit from them. you look at his economic proposal. there's a big antitrust component, something senator

klobuchar and warren have talked about. minimum wage is something other candidates have talked about. he drew a line when it came to medicare for all. how does that play out over the next six, nine months, the way they borrow from each other. how difficult is it to distinguish yourself and look at what others are doing. >> i wouldn't discount how shrewd voters can be when they want answers to their problems, and there's a lot of americans who are worried about health care. there's a lot of americans who are worried about their jobs and their futures and i think they will start to separate these candidates out around how much they can actually articulate a policy driven response to their problems. i think the sort of fading of beto and the emergence of buttigieg, i think one of the things that distinguishes those two people is that buttigieg tends to have very thoughtful policy driven answers, and beto didn't. and i think that voters will be turned on by the new for a little while. if the rubber doesn't meet the road, i think they'll turn away

from you. >> since there's no shortage of candidates, mayor pete buttigieg sits down with donny deutsch with saturday night politics, debuting at 8:00 p.m. eastern time on msnbc, and coming up here on "up", president trump compares the border to disneyland, new details in the exclusive reporting after the growing list of reasons why a statement like that is so far from true. t like that is so far from true. hmm. exactly.

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exclusive report reveals the trump administration has no clear prose for reuniting children separated from their parents at the u.s. mexico border. my colleagues show e-mails privately admitting the government had information to reconnect 60 parents with their kids. almost 3,000 were separated under the zero tolerance policy. the same day nbc news published that exclusive, the trump administration requested $4.5 billion in emergency funding for managing the influx of refugees and family units at the southern border. the acting director of the omb wrote a letter to the president of the senate, that's vice president mike pence, with a break down of the funding request. the administration specifically asking for $3.3 billion for humanitarian assistance. another $1.1 billion for border operations like detention beds and finally, $178 million for missions support. the letter then goes on to state that the unaccompanied alien minor program could run out of resources by june. meanwhile, cbs news reporting

former white house chaff john kelly has joined the board of caliber international, that company is the largest operator of shelters for unaccompanied migrant children. let me start with you and get to this john kelly news in a moment. this request, what does it signal? this was not money for wall as the administration says. what is -- what shift does that signal to you? . >> it shifts that they are potential think thinking about ways to address the so called humanitarian crisis that i think donald trump and his administration has created by not addressing these problems sooner and i think that's fair to say because the whole time the immigration reform that president trump and his administration has been proposing is a border wall, simply a border wall, and that is to keep people out. that is not to address the crisis and the climate and the situation that people find themselves in when they cross the border or they are being separated from their parents and so i think that it signals a shift that, look, a border wall is not going to make things better. it's not going to solve this

crisis. does he want a border wall? certainly. does he know he's not going to get money for a border wall with house democrats in control, yes. democrats are going to be understandably nervous about giving him any sort of money when like i said, he created the problem himself. >> under the egress of crisis, there are crises, the humanitarian one and a judicial one, there's an understaffed judiciary incapable of dealing with all they have to deal with on the border. >> and with kelly profiting off the detention of migrant children, you just shake your head. i'm not sure which circle of held he belongs in for that -- he wil hell he broelongs in for that. whether it's the department of justice, homeland security, they're in a tough spot. most of them, like i said,

115,000 employees at the department of justice, 98% of them, good, hard working, doing the work of the american people, trying to keep us safe. that's what they do. homeland security is the same. judiciary is the same. they have such an impossible decision to make. do i stay there and remain part of the machinery carrying out trump's plans or do i stand up and be a jim mattis or quite frankly, a chuck rosenberg when he stepped down as director of the dea when he could not buy into the president's policies. my heart breaks for them, and i think they're all making their own calls. look, they have to put food on the table, that's important. i understand. but at what point when people are ordered, okay, let's start to put up the concentration wire, the razor wire around the areas where we're going to now detain migrant children. at what point do they say i'm done. >> susan, as we look backward and forward, you look back, they

didn't have what they said they had, they lied about that, that they had the ability to pair these children with their families, looking forward, what plan exists at this point? here we are how many months after this national emergency was declared, and where do things stand? >> there isn't a plan, and the president doesn't care about people. he doesn't care about the people who are crossing the border in any shape or form. what he does care about is a visual. that's why he wanted to see, you know, you saw fox news in 2018, showing the caravan. what he's concerned about and the humanitarian crisis that he sees is all of these people and the press showing what's going on at the border. that scarce him and -- scares him and leaves the democrats to authorize funds and the funds they see will make the biggest difference. and the president doesn't care. he'll take anything because he sees this as more of a political problem and a visual problem than anything else. >> we're going to come back in just a moment. up next, what is next for stacey abrams, that's coming up.

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united states senate. but let's be clear. i will do everything in my power to ensure georgia elects a democrat to the united states senate in 2020. >> for now focusing on voting rights nonprofit group fair fight action. down in texas she was giving a speech on the heels of this and said what she said time and time again which is, "we won." using that as the focus of all that she's talking about here as she moves forward. what power does that give her going forward? how resonant is that message within the democratic party? >> depends on how long the legs are. clearly she has a lot of political capital and goodwill behind her now, a strong social media presence, people care what she says. she has a chance now to -- and she's not wrong when she says that. i think republicans should be worried about texas in georgia becoming blue states. she obviously embodies i think potential for georgia to become

more blue, or majority blue. so that should scare republicans. i think the issue is, what does she do with this tactically going forward? voter suppression, a key issue for her. something we as americans should care about and she's a great ambassador for that issue but has it move beyond that issue and needs a menu of responses. >> what's wrong with the deliberative body? we could spend the whole hour of the show talking about that. what's distasteful about this? why is abrams and hickenlooper not interested in running for the senate? >> there's the old paradigm of governors and executives hate going into the senate. they're used to being the ones making the call and go in and are one of two from their state and it rolls out. influence is diminished. the other thing is, right now good people don't want to serve.

that's a tough problem. just going a little back to stacey abrams. i think her biggest role could be kingmaker. if she endorses in the democratic primary that can be huge. i think it's a way of taking her message and keeping her relevant and moving forward for the next 18 months, because that could be part of her challenge. i think potential kingmaker or queenmaker. >> we're seeing that happen. meeting with candidates, embodying, playing that role? >> certainly . to her filling a public ochs just because it's open is not as bolsters fair elections and making georgia more competitive against republicans in the future. she said something recently in an interview, running for senate or the white house is a job, end of the day. she wants to make sure she is the most qualified person to hold that job p. i think she's thinking about it in a critical and smart way and others are returning, i believe,

it's a why not? presidential election cycle. why not when running against somebody like donald trump. she wants to make sure the infrastructure is in place for people are color to have their voices heard and counted via voting in a place like georgia, could be crucial for senate and congressional races in the future and recognizes that's a bigger issue for democrats and the future of the party than her necessarily representing the party being a senator or a democratic candidate for president. >> something she talked about a lot in the "new york times" magazine interview. favorite part. written eight novels under a pseudonym. >> really? >> no. feels a sense of mission and refreshing. thank you all for joining me. what happens when the country's top law enforcement officer refuses to comply with your subpoena? my colleague joy reid will sit down with a member of the house judiciary committee to find out. up next. ind out. up next. directly to petmeds.com.

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was being falsely accused. good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy." we have a lot to get to this morning, including donald trump's brazen phone call with russian president vladimir putin where not surprisingly he did not confront putin on russia's interference in the 2016 election but did get a smile. that's nice. start with what you just heard from attorney general william barr this week. that is everything you need to know about his view on obstruction of justice. namely, that essentially a president, at least a republican one, cannot commit it. barr is among several legal minds on the right to hold a particular view about presidential power based on the theory called the unitary executive theory. according to politico supporters of this executive argue the constitution grants presidents broad control of the executive branch to take a salient trump era example, the power to fire