be a corrupt intent, because he was being falsely accused. good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy." we have a lot to get to this morning, including donald trump's brazen phone call with russian president vladimir putin where not surprisingly he did not confront putin on russia's interference in the 2016 election but did get a smile. that's nice. start with what you just heard from attorney general william barr this week. that is everything you need to know about his view on obstruction of justice. namely, that essentially a president, at least a republican one, cannot commit it. barr is among several legal minds on the right to hold a particular view about presidential power based on the theory called the unitary executive theory. according to politico supporters of this executive argue the constitution grants presidents broad control of the executive branch to take a salient trump era example, the power to fire

an fbi director for any reason at all. apparently according to william barr, any reason includes to stop an investigation of himself, simply because he thinks the investigation is unfair. if that sounds familiar i refer to you what richard nixon said to david frost as forced to resign from the presidency. >> there are certain situations, and the houston panel that part of it, was one of them, where the president can decide that it's in the best interests of the nation, or something, and do something illegal? >> well, when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal. >> by definition? >> exactly. >> joining me now, paul butler former prol prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst, ryan goodman professor of law at new york university and walter dellinger from duke university. and go to you first, since you're not at the table.

politico post add piece titled "the real reason bill barr is defending trump." barr made his first imprint as head of the department of legal counsel in the george h.w. bush administration authored a controversial memo giving the fbi the rise to seize fugitives abroad without consent of the foreign government in question as deputy attorney general told george h.b. bush he had the power to send u.s. military forces into iraq without congressional affirmation. a president has absolute power and cannot truly be checked by congress? is that what this is saying? >> yes, i think that's right, joy. the view that has been put forth by attorney general barr, his constitutional theory, that a president cannot commit obstruction of justice or that no one should inquire into the president's motives for exercising one of his article 2

powers, really thoroughly remolished in the report of robert mueller, who says that what kind of a country would we have if a president had carte blanche to unlimited authority to interfere with investigations as long as he did it by the use of hiring, firing, parten powers and similar article 2 powers? but i think, joy, it goes beyond his constitutional theory, because he has also shown, i think that he is being simply disingenuous in defense of the president. he's made argument he can't reasonably believe. one example. he said there's a difference between firing mueller and removing him for conflicts of interest. well, there would be a difference if there were any plausible conflicts, but when you read the mueller report, the idea that mueller had conflicts is just laughable. he's making up an excuse

defending the president has is embarrassingly unlike and different from the facts on the ground. >> ryan goodman, you've written a lot about the history of william barr, vis-a-vis his views for at least republican presidential power. is this a man -- one of two options. either just being roy cohn, for whatever reason decided to defend this man come what map at the risk of destroying his own credibility as a lawyer, or he really genuinely believed that presidents are a super power inside of the federal government and cannot be checked by congress? >> so strangely i think it's both. some of what we said before as well. extreme version of the president's power even making other unitarian executives blush. like executive pow other than steroids. an expert in the nomination hearings who warned the senate about him saying this isn't just

a usual eun terrill executive power, abnormal and imperial executive power. i think he has that vision and this is his opportunity to make good on him. and making factual arguments as though he's the defense lawyer for the president, and that's about the facts. not about any constitutional theory and making up the facts and twisting the facts. also deception towards the public. the public should be his client not the president in his personal capacities. that's a problem. >> the corruption of his office problem. the problem to what you just heard ryan say, essentially corrupting his office to be donald trump's lawyer. >> yes. >> the bigger picture. i'm old enough to remember the iraq war and this previous version of the eun tunitary exee and allowing torture to take place, that that's okay. the president can allow almost anything to take place. the ability to go to war has been stripped from congress.

during the george w. bush administration you saw this and even alberto gonzalez firing u.s. attorneys wasn't doing this. >> an extremist theory right wing politicians, judges have. think of the late justice scalia. robert bork. if the president does it, it's not illegal. so barr said that president trump could not have obstructed justice, because as the attorney general -- as the president, he has the power to stop any investigation. so when senator harris asked, what about those ten acts of obstruction outlined in the mueller report, barr said, well, the president was falsely accused. he could in any investigation, end any investigation he wants. the most extreme example, a scholar asked who holds this bizarre theory, could the president order the torture of a child? the scholar, john hugh, call his

name, said depends why the president would order that. >> the guy who authored ltz the infamous torture memo. another guy during the george bush administration then hired to a tenured position teaching law i think as berkeley. right? it's not as if these guys -- there's no cost to it. they're putting forward an idea that would essentially end us as a republic. is that's not a king? is what paul described a king? >> imperialism, autocracy. what a king decides to do is lawful and not only end an investigation, start any investigation. >> we'll go there next. walter before we go there, actually i want to read a quote. people forget this guy got confirmed after he wrote a memo essentially auditioning for the job by saying, i'll be roy cohn. i will do this thing for you, because let me tell you right now the mueller investigation is not legitimate. he writes a part from whether

mueller a strong -- a strong and a factual -- mueller has a strong and a factual basis for doing so mueller's obstruction theory is fatally misconceived. based on an unsupportable reading of the law. moreover, in my viewredited by the department would have grave consequences far beyond the immediate confine of this case and do lasting damage to the presidency and to the administration of law within the executive branch. that was written in june of 2018. before he knew what mueller's theory of anything was, because there was no mueller report. walter dellinger, did this man not telegraph to everyone in congress he intended it turn donald trump into an unchecked unitary executive? >> well, i think we knew. i think we knew half of it, joy. as both ryan and paul have noted. one-half is his rather extreme view of presidential authority.

the other half is his willingness to bend the facts and to be consistently misle misleading in the president's defense. could you have a, a principle execution of a unitaryve theory, but we can come up with numerous examples from his letter in his press conference where i think he has been deliberately misleading's that is a whole other aspect of what's going on here, and one that, you know, pervades the entire administration. j not just barr. their refusal to respond with information from congress is shocking given the roll congress was not to be merely a coequal branch but the primary branch of government. >> exactly right. paul butler, jerry nadler chairman of the house judiciary committee threatening william barr with contempt. a deadline looms for multiple things actually. to do to congress on congress

including tax returns due, bill barr's -- the provision of testimony from the white house counsel, former white house counsel don mcgahn. at this point the administration saying we're not going any of that. we're just going to ignore congress. what remedies does congress have? a. range of legal options including holding the president -- i'm holding the president or the attorney general in contempt. in theory, they could make them go to jail if they could only find someone who could enforce that law. >> right. >> they could also impeach the attorney general. these are legal options. there's a different political question about whether the determination will be that if it seems like they're so focused still on the mueller investigation, that that won't be in their best political interests. we'll have to wait and see what they do. you know, to ryan's point earlier about the president being able to order investigations under this bizarre unitary executive theory. >> yes, yes. >> senator harris asked barr at

the hearing on wednesday, has the president ordered you to prosecute anyone? >> yep. >> he did not answer that question. so we already know. the last time the senate, barr was asked a question he didn't answer, it was, did you give the mueller report to trump's attorneys before it was released to the public? >> yeah. he didn't answer that question. >> we now know he did in fact ueer report. it wouldn't be surprising if, in fact, the president has ordered the attorney general to prosecute people and barr given his bizarre extreme right wing views might have said, yes, sir, mr. president. >> right. you, we already know lindsey graham and other republicans are planning to investigate people on donald trump's behalf. subordination to trump, it's total at this point. they are not independent actors. just do whoever they think trump wants. lindsey graham telegraphing, the trump campaign sending 0 ut a text message promoting this to their supporters. we'll talk about that later in the show. but in theory, how far could william barr go? could he go off and try to

arrest former fbi officials to try to punish them for investigating donald trump? does he have the power to do that? >> he has the power of the state. so it's -- he has that power. >> and he seems to have the inclination? >> seems to have the inclination. i remember from the nomination hearing, the first exchanges with lindsey graham, graham goes to the litany of people investigated, each time barr says, yes, yes, i'll do that. i'll do that. being tasked with this and it's from the very beginning and now it's manifesting. >> walter dellinger what did congress do about that? anybody who remembers ma busso, attorneys for president that's not usual. it that happens here, donald trump say lock them up. i want people locked up and william barr starts doing it what can congress do about that? at least, well, not congress, just the house.

the senate won't do anything. >> well, you know, the house is actually in a very weak position on that particular question, because there is a lot of -- there is a long tradition of executive branch independence when it comes to carrying out criminal investigative functions without congress interfering and saying here's who you should or should not be investigating, but i don't want to diminish, i think, how extraordinary and distressing the present moment is, because you have what we're talking about now. the fact that if there is russian interference in the 2020 election, the attorney general has sent, and the president, have sent a message to anybody in the counter intelligence or fbi if you start to investigate leads that show that the russians are 25e6attempting to re-elect trump you will find yourself investigated, find

yourself called in front of a congressional committee, and when you couple that with the shocking fact that the president of the united states refused yesterday to defend the united states by asserting to vladimir putin that he should stop doing this or pay severe sanctions, the combination of those is extremely distressing. >> indeed. opening the door and warning the guards to stand down. what a situation we find ourselves in. paul, be right back. ryan, walter, thank you very much. coming up, speaker nancy pelosi thinks trump's attorney general comitted a crime. who's going to do something about that? that's next. ♪

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the thing is, you put this out there. i mean, the president went out and tweeted the next day he was xo exonerated. that was not based on the mueller report but on your assessment and now you won't elaborate at all how you reached that conclusion? >> would bob mueller support your conclusion? >> i don't know whether bob mueller supported my conclusion. >> that exchange between senator chris val holland and attorney general william barr is from april 10th. an april 10th hearing about the mueller report. we now know two weeks earlier, march 27th, robert mueller sent a letter to barr expressing frustration and concern with the

way barr characterized his report. leaving congressional democrats to draw one obvious conclusion. >> madam speaker, did the attorney general commit a crime? >> he lieds to congress. he lied to congress and anybody else did that it would be considered a crime. nobody is above the law. not the president of the united states, and not the attorney general. being attorney general does not give you a bath to go say whatever you want and it is the fact, because you are the attorney general. it just isn't true. >> should he go to jail for it? >> there's a process involved. >> paul butler back with me. joining me now is david korn of mother jones and natasha of politico. stay with you paul, legal eagle at the table. play one more sound bite that was even more blatant than the one we just played from chris van hollen. that is from congressman charlie crist of florida.

this is chiefly criarlie crist before, when he asked a specific question. >> reports emerged recently, general that members. special counsel's team are frustrated at some level with the limited information included in your march 24th letter, that it does not adequately or accurately necessarily portray the report's findings. do you know what they're referencing with that? >> no, i don't. i think -- i think, i suspect, in they probably wanted, you know, more put out. >> okay. no, i don't. no, i don't. i don't know. charlie crist asks very specifically, does not believe his letter adequately or accurately necessarily supports the report. march 27th, the letter, when it's dated.

and it says, from mueller, the summary letter, the department sent to congress, and released to the public did not fully capture the context, nature and substance of this office's work and conclusions. that's a lie. is it perjury? and if it's perjury, who's going to do something about it? >> the attorney general of the united states has gone gangster. the time he's not ignoring congress in its subpoenas he's lying to congress. so, yes. he was asked, did you know that the mueller team was upset, was angry about the way that you characterized the investigation. >> yes. >> he said, no, i didn't. >> yes. >> that's a lie, because we know he knew that mueller had written him a letter making that complaint. and he has the worst kind of most legalistic defense. his defense is, well, i was asked about mueller's team, and i knew that mueller was mad. i didn't know that the team was mad. that's perjury. robert mueller is putting people

in prison for lying to congress. the attorney general of the united states has lied to congress. if he were treated like any other witness he would be on his way to jail. >> you're a former prosecutor. if you brought someone in for questioning or if law enforcement brought them in for questions and you asked them, were you aware that person x disagreed with what you said? and they said, no. and then a letter turned up showing that that was a lie, would you prosecute that case? >> absolutely. you know what? if it were a regular person i would do it. if it were the attorney general of tunited states, he should be held to a higher standard. the nation's chief law ens enforcement officer. this isn't just about the criminality of lying to congress it's about the constitution, checks and balances, it's about whether the attorney general of the united states respects the rule of law. >> who could prosecute him? michael cohen's going to jail for three years.

okay? who could prosecute william barr for this? >> there's no, as a practical matter nobody. a federal crime. he's the head of -- >> prosecuted after no longer attorney general? >> you bet he could be. >> broad didn't out a little. david korn, a lot of william barr, but even before he took this job, should have raised huge alarm bells. huge. to say nothing of his audition letter where he basically said i will end this -- essentially said i don't believe this mueller investigation is legit. should have been enough. wait. there's more. a lot more. should it be at issue that mueller himself has a family member who's advising donald trump on legal issues? why did it not come up during his confirmation hearings that his son-in-law has a job advising the president on legal issues? here is a bit from "vanity fair." this is february 2019. the husband of barr's youngest daughter has been hired as an attorney in the white house

counsel's office where he will advise the president, executive office and without staff on legal issues concerning the president and the presidency. i want to note we did reach out to the justice department and to the white house for comment on whether or not this is a conflict of interests and did not receive a response. why is this not being made more of an issue, david korn? >> certainly it should have when barr's going through his confirmation hearings, and now we see a couple democrats who supported him said, oh, my god. if i knew then what i know now, well, a lot of us did know, because for decades he has talked about the president's having -- what i would consider undo power and involved with pardons during the iran/contra scandal, the final bit you of that cover-up. but i think that the larger point here is that basically donald trump said, you know, when he was trying to get rid of sessions that he wanted roy cohn. not the best attorney general

available, the best legal mind available. i want roy cohn. it's clear from the start whoever he hired, he had to feel assured that this person would care more about donald trump and his powers than the constitution and the american public. and so to that end, nothing that barr is doing is surprising, and what we see here is a trump classic playbook. that, you know, the mueller report is a gigantic scandal. shows that trump lied about dealing with russia. showed he lied about the russian attack. and showed that there were serious interactions, whether you call it collusion, conspiracy, certainly not a crime, between trump world and russia. tremendous scandal. what are we talking about now? talking about not that. the new scandal which is that bill barr seems to have lied to congress. this is what they do. as soon as they are caught they

change the focus. the best cover-up of all. we're not talking about the mueller report. >> and another issue, natasha. william barr telegraphed who he was and the great maya angelou said when someone tells you who they are, you should listen. he was trying to tell us he was roy cohn but might be more conflicted than for whatever reason a lackey of donald trump. april 15, a piece in "newsweek." question, should welcome barr recuse himself from the mueller report? legal experts say attorney generals ties to russia are troubling. a bit of that. a few of barr's previous employers are connected to key subjects in the probe. some argue even if barr didn't break any rules his financial ties to companies linked to aspects of the russia investigation raise questions about whether he should, like his predecessor, jeff sessions, recuse himself.

obviously he didn't and he's not going to even on the other 14 investigations that he has the power to interrupt or end. has anyone on capitol hill on the democratic side began raising questions about whether william barr himself has too many conflicts to be involved, because there are still 14 other investigations that the american people have a vested interest in? >> you know, i don't think that they've had to raise questions about this just because the other questions about his conflicts of interest having to do with the memo, of course, he wrote for the president back in 20, i believe last year, 2018 is so much of a conflict of interest in and of itself, but certainly it raises questions. right? why weren't these issues presented during his confirmation hearings? i just want to go back quickly to the question of his many conflicts of interest having to do with people in his orbit dealing with the white house. something that's gone under the ray dashgs his chief of staff now brian rabbitt actually worked for the white house legal

counsel for roughly a year and people who have pointed to his son-in-law working in the white house now have actually said that brian rabbitt's role as chief of staff arguably is much more problematic than his son-in-law working in the white house counsel's office. something to watch for. then with regard to the legalese he couched his response to lawmakers in, earlier this week saying, well, i didn't know that the mueller report, that mueller's team -- that mueller's team was angry rather than mueller. that doesn't make a lot of sense either. you recall, he called the letter mueller wrote snitty and that a staffer must have written it. clearly some awareness if not mueller at least his team was angry, but bill barr's conflicts are very much out in the open and i think that democrats now are just figuring out how they're going to move forward perhaps with a contempt proceeding and whether or not there's going to be a way to

hold him accountable for any of this. >> quickly, david korn before we go, 22 months of investigation was said, in two, three weeks after women barr comes on the scene. rachel maddow asked this question and looking into it. did women barr end the mueller investigation? any reporting that suggests he may have come in and landed the plane, to use a phrase? >> yeah. you know, there's speculation, but i do believe that in the letter that mueller sent or in other ways we did see some leaking, very little leaking, out of the mueller people at the end that if they felt they had been pressured to conclude business before they had finished on their own account, i think we would know that. but this is certainly one reason that democrats and others, i would hope others but maybe not, want to bring mueller to the hill and he's tentatively scheduled for mid-may. a great go ask him. right? there are thousands of questions and that's one at the top of the

list. >> see if we'll ever get to hear from robert mueller and if he ever gets to the hill. thank you all. coming up, donald trump phones a friend, or should we say a comrade? huh? as we go to break, take a listen to this moment from senator mazie hirono. >> you lied to congress. you told representative charlie crist that you didn't know what objections mueller's team might have to your march 24th so-called summary. you told senator crist van holland you didn't know if bob mueller supported your conclusions, but you knew you lied and now we know. america deserves better. you should resign.

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mr. president, did you address election meddling issues that came up in the mueller report with mr. putin today? >> we actually, he sort of smiled when he said something to the effect that it started off as a mountain and ended up being a mouse, but he knew that, because he knew there was no collusion whatsoever. so -- pretty much that's what it was. >> did you -- >> mr. president, did you tell him not to meddle in the next election. >> excuse me. i'm answering the next question. >> mr. president -- >> are you very rude. we had a conversation about many things. >> did you ask him not to meddle in the next election? we can't discuss it.

we really didn't discuss it. president trump attempted to bully members of the press including my colleague kristen welker and elicited a telling admission from the president. at no time during his hour and a half-long conversation with vladimir putin did he warn the russian president not to meddle in our upcoming election. instead, trump focused on putin smiling at hill. the white house clarified it was not a video call. so the smile, i assume, was implied. or the smile was real and why wouldn't it be? putin got exactly what he wanted when he attacked our last presidential election, to help get trump elected. and he now appears to be guess the green light from "the apprentice" star to get the band all back together again. joining me now, malcolm nance, msnbc contributor and author of "the plot to destroy democracy" also journalist and author of "the view from flyover country."

and a democratic pollster and host of the podcast strange days. and a former fbi double agent and author of "how to catch a russian spy." thank you all for being here. malcolm, you first. that performance by donald trump in the oval office essentially saying, no, i didn't ask about russian meddling. what did you take from that? >> my first thought reminded me of a classic film called "star wars" where darth vader kneels at the foot of the every fmper you know darth vader is evil and that's a higher evil power. utter boot licking by donald trump. a disgraceful display he would go on there and literally talk to the person who attacked the united states in the fundamentals of our democracy and praises him and work with

him to call this a hoax. worse than that, he dropped a hint very soon russian sanctions will be lifted. >> yeah. and he's the one who initiated the call. >> sure. called his buddy. had to call in, get that quarterly eval done. >> malcolm and i joked three-year anniversary on television coming up in july. yours and mine probably about the same on the same subject. talking a long time about donald trump's behaving as an autocrat, example, forcing subordinates to not talk about russian attacks on our election. kirstjen nielsen department of homeland security warned not to talk about it. don't talk about russian attacks. don't tell him, even though charged with protecting 20920 election. another aspect of trump, he is an incredibly weak person the

subordinate of an ougautocrat. he's the autocrat's under -- >> i think he likes to delude himself he's in control. as we know, he's had financial arrangements and political arrangements with russia and with the russian mafia going back several decades in which he owes them a great deal of money and they have control what they want to reveal. we saw him prostrate himself in helsinki, ask putin to be his best friend on twitter, beg russia for hillary clinton's emails. none of this is new. however, i think trump doesn't care necessarily if people know what they're relationship is. he wants to flaunt it. wants people to feel powerless. he wants the united states and the people of the united states to know they're effectively being treated lie citizens of a proxy state to russia. in reality what we've had, i've said on the show many times before, a transnational crime

syndicate massacre aqueradine i government with putin leading the charge, an aspect to all this, there are the republicans who display a learned helplessness and secretness to trump. >> then he displays, frauntlaun sarah used the right word. flaunting the fact, oh, no. i'm going to putin for advice on north korea. he's telling me what is happening in venezuela, and whatever my intelligence services tell me is not true. it's what he tells me that's important. it is -- it's an odd thing that he is both an autocrat and sort of a junior partner in an autocratic sort of string of regimes? >> definitely. i think i used the phrase myself a couple years ago. he's a wannabe dictator. just kidding, although in his head he's not really kidding.

revealing of his mind-set. sarah is right to use the word "flaunting". imagine any other president in this situation. quote/unquote cleared, totally exonerated. mr. president, move on. talk about other thing. don't bring up russia. you're done, in the clear. instead goes out of his way to say i like vladimir putin and told him it was all a russian hoax and he smiled. it was great. ta draw more attention to it and flaunting of it is a reminder what will happen now over the next 18 months. because my problem with democrats, you say, well, we can't impeach him. need to beat him at the ballot box what do you think will happen the next 18 months and what's happening at that next election? talked a lot about punishing trump or republicans for what happened in 2016. it's about looking forward to 2020. if you're telling the russian president all is good. all fine. there was no collusion. all a hoax. we've dealt with it. we're in the clear. saying this morning i think 45 minutes ago in twitter, a great,

good relationship with russia. why is that a nod to russia and the chinese other adversaries to interfere in the next election with the president of the united states saying it's fine, we're cleared and good to go? >> and not only the president essentially saying nothing to see here. it's all fine. his attorney general saying there would be nothing wrong with it. he couldn't say even when ben sasse asked him, a republican asked him, trying to give him a softball to give him the opportunity to say, no. there would be something wrong with that. we don't want that to happen. if not protecting, the department of homeland security can't even talk about russian interference, the attorney general says i can't answer whether or not additional interference would be wrong and the president says, no. i'm going to ostentatiously be the subordinate of the russian president, there's nothing you can do about it. i wonder if the response on the other side is disproportionately unalarmed? >> well, joy, i've been so disturbened and frankly chilled by what we've seen this week including yesterday's disgraceful call with putin that i'd like to address my comments

to the democratic members of congress in the house and senate that i know watch "a.m. joy" religiously and i know are watching now. we do a disservice mincing words so a won't do that. the united states constitution, the rule of law in this country at this moment and at this hour is under direct attack by a wannabe regime that is masquerading itself under the name of the trump administration. for nearly two and a half years now, joy, we have seen this administration act only in bad faith and under no circumstances in the national interest. and with democrats, in essence, not really confronting and underplaying this direct assault on the rule of law, on the constitution that we see transpiring before our very eyes every day, democratic

congressional leaders run the risk of abdicating their constitutional responsibilities to defend this country, to defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. we have to eliminate this threatening talk and start using the power that we have, because as was said, we may not get the opportunity in 18 months. >> and you know, from the perspective of the kremlin, 2016 attack, completely successful. donald trump says in helsinki, we want to have a normal relationship with russia. in fact, we want to be friends. he now is taking their advice on north korea. they just shot off a missile. president trump saying, that's fine. going to be fine. total success on their part. why wouldn't they but for some extraordinary reaction from the democrats i don't know what they would have the power to do at this point to stop it, why not

go further? why wouldn't russia go all the way and do it again in 2020? >> the only reason they wouldn't, every time donald trump does something i'm more and more surprised this guy has no idea what the hell he's doing and they don't have to do anything to create chaos. donald trump does it on his own. the reality when it comes to the mueller report, one thing that isn't contested russia as we've discussed over and observer again tried to interfere in our 2016 election. no collusion or conspiracy it's clear russia interfered and interfered in a way that was beneficial to donald trump. the thing that always gets me at the end of the day, joy, we saw it with the phone call with putin, is that the russians doesn't even give donald trump anything. i mean, they promised emails. there was talk about a hotel or something in moscow. they got donald trump for the princely sum of zero dollars. that's the thing we see repeating. that what i learned working counterintelligence against the russians, this is is all about

negotiations, all about leverage and donald trump is simply out-classed by vladimir putin. the fact that he calls up -- initiated call, you pointed out, to vladimir putin after this is a huge concession. that small piece alone, not to have pompeo or someone of a lower level reach out to the russians to have bilateral discussions, for him to pick up the phone and do it is essentially a clear green light to the russians to say, i will do whatever you want me to do. i'm going to roll over. goodness, the russians are reading that, assessing it and i can only imagine what comes next. again, it's more of the things that will keep me up unfortunately, up awake at night. >> indeed. go to -- raising a really important point. no republican impetus to do anything about this. democrats control one-half of the first half of government. control of house of representatives. their concern, sarah is political. if they try to go too hard to do something about this, they will pay a political price for it.

you wrote a book. is there any concern where democrats are worried about, the places you're talking about? places like missouri? any concern out there in the world that this is happening to our country or are people not paying attention to attention t it? >> of course people are concerned. people can see that we're living in chaos. people can see our country is in jeopardy. i don't know why there is a cliche about my part of the country, but i think it is something that the democratic leadership is falsely relying on. we need impeachment hearings. the evidence for trump and his crimes, they need to be presented to the country. people in this country owed that. we are owed that information.

this is just their actual job. >> we're going to come back in the next hour and have more on it. before i lose this feed this hour, you brief members of congress, you brief these democrats, what is their ren sen power they could use. >> there seems to be an unfortunate, we're poe lit sizing something that is a national security threat, and i think if the american public understood what that threat is, and we were clear and concise about this and we separated the question of collusion and conspiracy and donald trump and focused on the idea that russia is a bag actor and will seek to remain a bad actor and we present that to the american people and they have a perfect dove tail with trump, that is

something they can certainly do. >> that is why we have been having you back for all of these years because that is the whole point. getting people to focus to understand that we're not a country if another country meddles in our democratic process. this is so important, it is fundamental, it is your right to vote. if they're in your voter roles, that is voter suppression. thank you, i always appreciate talking with you. thank you, everyone. we always appreciate you. coming up, senator kamala harris pins down william barr. i think we're in a situation of a national security crisis that is only going to get bigger. i think the russians are running a strategic political warfare operation and we're at cyber war with them. they're running an campaign to

select who they want in the white house. katy tur hit it on the head, do you have any pause about what you're doing? no pause whatsoever. doing no pause whatsoever.

>> we have much more a.m. joy

coming up, and tonight i will be back with a special edition of "a.m. joy" at 7:00 p.m., we call it p.m. joy. donny is going to join me with a preview of his show coming up next. a preview of his show coming up next worried about my information getting out. why's that? [bird speaking] my social is 8- 7- 5 dash okay, i see. [bird laughing] somebody thinks it's hilarious. free social security alerts from discover.

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has the president or anyone at the white house ever asked or suggested that you open an investigation of anyone? yes or no, please, sir. >> um, the president or anybody

else -- >> it seems you would remember something like that and be able to tell us. >> yes, but i'm trying to grapple with the word suggest. there has been discussion of matters out there that they have not asked me to open an investigation, but -- >> perhaps they suggested? >> i would not say suggest. >> hinted? >> inferred? >> i don't know. >> you don't know. >> wow, good morning welcome back to a.m. joy. one of the single moments to come out of his senate judiciary committee that week was that exchange. donald trump repeatedly called for informations into his political enmys in familiar likt. also those that dared to investigation the campaign's ties to russia.

barr struggled to say whether or not the boss ordered him to open any such investigations. meanwhile, congress lead by lindsey graham are continuing to play the role of preplea deal. vowing to launch investigations into the people, and let's be clear but by people i mean fbi agents and other national security professionals that investigated the trump campaign as part of their duty to protect the united states, to protect you, against a foreign attack on our election. now with that in mind, now you can listen to this. >> this committee is going to look long and hard at how this all started. we're going to look at the fisa warrant process. >> starting with everybody leading up before the investigation, i hope they're being investigationed. >> what are you doing to

investigation unauthorized media contacts by the department and other officials during the department and russia investigation. >> we have multiple leak investigations under way. >> joining me now is justice and security analyst matthew miller. thank you all for being here, malco malcolm, during that we were talking about a column that i will definitely have to read now and you say there is an analogy to what is happening now. >> sure, he wrote a op-ed where he said the nation is at the he heels of a from administration. he said imagine a city where the mayor is corrupt, and the da is corrupt, and the chief of police is corrupt, and the city council is corrupt, that is where the

united states is. but at that point you have the state and the federal authorities to appreciate you. this is a corrupt criminal enterprise now. you have the attorney general of the united states acting as a hit man for the president of the united states not looking out for the people of the united states, and laws now no longer matter. i dedicated every second of my life to defend this nation. i love and believe in the constitution of the united states. my country is now under attack by the president of the united states. who will stand for it? who in our own congress right now wants to negotiate with him, right? their last bit of hour will come in 18 months of trushing pressure from a man that is all but in name a dictator. i would like to hear how we're going to handle this problem. >> matthew miller, to put a fine point on it, donald trump has been very specific that he wants the investigators investigated.

his campaign sent out a text message saying it is time to investigate the investigators. that may be written off, but he has been very explicit that he wants the people that opened the counter intelligence investigation into his campaign, because they had multiple ties with russia, he wants them investigated. are we going to see this attorney general start prosecuting the people that tried to protect the country from a russian attack? >> i think it has been the president's goal since he took office. there was the lock her um comments in the campaign, and early on in office we know he was pressures jeff sessions, and he has been saying the same thing about jim comey, pete struck, and all of the people at the fbi.

this is his political reelection strategy, too. you have seen it with reports of the president, rudy giuliani suggesting that they investigate joe biden. and bill bard's comments in the hearing this week were troubling because they suggested that he is having conversations about investigations or someone in the white house, or informativestig they should open, and he was asked if it was appropriate for the president to suggest who the attorney general investigate. instead of saying department should usually say, that they should have no conversations, he said anyone can suggest an investigation, it's up for me to decide what to do. he was unwilling to draw that line at his confirmation hearing, and i think we still don't see it as a red line and it is very troubling for what may be to come in the next few months. >> let's look at his exchange

with william barr. one, he could just start investigating or potentially prosecuting people that did their duty by trying to stop a russian attack, or he could intervene in the 14 remaining open mueller investigations that are out there. here is richard blumenthal talking about whether or not he will step aside from those? >> have you had any conversations with anyone in the white house about those investigations that were spun or spun off by -- >> i don't recall having any substantive discussion. >> have you had nonsubstantive discussions? >> it is possible a name of a case was mentioned. >> have you provided information about any of those investigations, any information whatsoever. >> i don't recall, no. >> will you recuse yourself from those investigations? >> no.

>> your thoughts? >> i don't recall, joy, that is the line from the master cover up artist. he has been a cover up artist for many years now. he helped george bush senior, he tried to get federal investigators to investigate the clintons. we know who he is. when he turned up to be confirmed by the nat his task is to cover up the mueller report. it is a outrage they voted for these guys, we saw him basically perjure himself. he needs to be impeached, removed from office, and i said this in the last hour, democrats keep saying we'll deal with this in november of 2020. some of them say this is a bad

precedent for future presidents, forget future presidents, he is in office right now. he is going to investigate his opponents. we know he wants hillary clinton locked up, they will target hillary clinton, bernie sanders, and kamala harris and more. >> that is a very salient question. let's go to the report on that. the democrats, to his point, have shown an incredible reluctance to act. there is some thinking they're trying to build up record that can withstand supreme court scrutiny that they went as far as they could to cooperate. on the other hand, if russia could easily meddle again, if they're being invited to it, if the attorney general said i'm open to investigating the investigators, what are the

democrats planning to do about it? >> that's a good question, joy. i think what you said it right about the school of thought right now. they are pushing and pushing and pushing to the limit. they have a record they can show in court saying look we tried as hard as we could. we pulled out all of the stops and the attorney general would not cooperate or give us the unredacted report. so they have a better chance of succeeding in that instance. but they're planning if they don't get their way next week to potentially hold him in content which house republicans did with eric general over the fast and furious informations. and that leaves a mark on the attorney general's record. it doesn't result in any stub stantive accountability. there is a lot of arguments that don't go far enough. i think we have known who bill barr is for awhile now.

since 2017 when he say investigating the yew ra uraniu investigation is more important than the russia investigation. the fbi's efforts in 2016 to monitor members of the trump campaign seem fairly anemic. that is the word he used, using a warptt and contacting members of the campaign, and those are exactly the things that republicans are pointing to as a over reach. i'm having trouble squaring those. but there is certainly impeachment talk. >> quickly i'm going around the

horn again, can building a record for the high court worked, does it work, has it been effective against erdogan. has it worked sf. >> no, and he uses all forms that other dictators have done, he seas what they have done. he talks about judges, and this is not just about trump, it is about the republican party. let's not fall into the joe biden trap. we know, imagine if barack obama was president right now, what the republicans would be doing, what if he was tweeting "i'm with him" for the uraniums. >> by the way, i'm with him is donald trump literally tweeted about kim jong un, the vicious murderous dictator of north korea that just launched

missiles, he tweeted "i'm with him." he tweeted that, he wrote that down. let me very quickly talk republicans. they have known shown no shame here. is there anything about the reputational dam that moves anyone to think there is any damage. they are rewarded for bad behavior on fox news and more. i think democrats don't have a strong hand to play here. it is an option, he will not be remauved by the senate, and

they're doing everything they can to try to pull documents out, and at some point the price is so high that they are moved to act. we have not seen it happen yet. it is a high rote, they are pushing as much as they can, but i think hoping for them to do anything is setting them up for disappointment. >> is become bar going to comply? any of that on monday? >> sarah, i'm sorry, natasha. >> that's why you're not answering, can because you're not sarah. >> he would be on solid legal

ground, so i think that is the kind of advice that the president is getting now and whether or not something happens that will prompt him to defy that. that remains to be seep, but with regard to the contempt threat being hung over the attorney general's head, democrats have been kicking the can down the road for awhile now. if bill barr does not comply with their demands, i'm not totally confident they will follow through on that. ultimately what is the political price going to be for democrats if they don't starting getting serious about this. >> a colleague yesterday likened it to clean your room, clean your room, okay, i will clean your room. what should congress be doing, what can they do, and how serious of a crisis is this? >> i hope they don't see him in the green room. you know i'm just astounded. i come on here and i try to be nice and calm and then i listen

to this analysis and it brings out the inner patriot in me, we have to stand for our constitution and our laws, and to say we're going to negotiate and create a nice paper trail, that is not fighting for this country. that is not fighting for what we believe, that is not fighting to defend this nation. they need need to just blow up the laws. they need blow up twitter, and they need to hold democrats available. not republicans, hold democrats available and say this nation in our laws, you will now stand and defend. if you don't we may not have much in 18 months. this white house feels they can do anything. robert mueller has given them permission to believe he is untouchable. and he is not what we all wanted and if this congress says okay,

we're going to have this decision, then that is what you will have, a harshly worded in a machine gunfight. >> matthew miller, thank you all very much. coming up next, my one on one with congressman jamie rasmus sen. jamie rasmus sen. ♪ ♪

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>> we are going to use what process we have in the courts and elsewhere to get the answers and the information we need. we got a letter late last night refusing to adhere to the subpoena. this is indefensible. we will make one more good faith attempt to negotiate and get access to the report that we need, and then if we don't, we will proceed to hold the stoerp general in contempt and we will go from there. >> on friday the house judiciary committee made a final counter offer to turn over the unredacted mueller report and under lying evidence to congress. giviing barr until monday at 9:0 a.m. to respond or they will

proceed with contempt proceedings. what does this administration have to do this merit impeachment. >> i do think that the investigation and getting more information and you never know that one thing can lead to another. >> we should start there. i don't agree with that. joining me now a member of the house judiciary committee. >> i'm warning you, there is a little delay between us, let's go to what the judiciary committee made as their counteroffer. they will reconsider their refusal to view redacted portions of the report. they will underlie materials for

immediate production. i think a lot of dcs are wondering why so accommodating. why are they continuing to make counter offers and allowing william bar and the administration to go through deadlines and giving them new de decklines. >> in every other administration, they have generally been able to do it, but understand that the trump administration is now engaged in bad faith defooins of congress, and of the law making branch of government. they're doing it to us over the unredacted mueller report. they're doing it to the ways and means committee over the president's taxes that they're refusing to turn over. and on the joer sight committee,

they're withholding up evidence and testimony from people about their corruption of the white house security clearance process in the personnel office, basically the president said we're not going to cooperate with congress and that was the basis for article three of the impeachment articles brought against richard nixon. we have to get the constitutional order correct. we're the article one branch. america is a representative democracy, we represent the people, the soul primary job of the president of the united states is to take care that the laws are faithfully executed. not forwards and not violated, this president is setting himself at war against the constitution and the legislative branch. yes maybe it seems a little old fashioned, but we want to show the courts what we're doing. we're going to move to hold this

guy it content behind the defense of the separation of powers, and our preemanant power. there is a precedent that if you're going to go to court that you hope it will get to the supreme court and there needs to be a a record in place that the house did all it could to try to achieve cooperation by noncoercive means. it confirms what you just said, what happens if congress keeps allowing this kind of lawlessness from the executive branch, take a listen. >> if trump can do all that he tried to do to impede an investigation into his own wrong doing and attacks by the foreign

government, it gives license to the next president, the next president, and the next president to do the same thing. >> there is a way that congress could get the underlying grand jury trerl. under impeachment it is a different set of rules i understand. the highest sanction that congress is allowed to infer is the worst, the most, that you can do. if this president is not impeached, will the next president have to go even further with the lawlessness, and do we essentially not create a king? >> i think you're right, senator warren is correct, we have a responsibility to accomplish that the president cannot convert the government into a money making operation for hipgs and friends, and he cannot be

included in ongoing investigations that include investigations into him. i think we would be shocked to hear that he was a president who is interfering in a law enforcement investigation into him and his family and his business and so on. but we have a speedometer not just to the future but to the past two because it was james madison that said this was the cardinal principal of our justice system that no man should be a judge in his own case. that is what donald trump has managed to effectuate. . >> you just made an argument to impeach donald trump, is that going to happen? >> remember impeachment has two thwarts to it. one is league. and i take those to be serious grave offenses against the character of our government.

and i have no question that there is overwhelming evidence that took place. the other part is the political question. this has not been vested in the article three courts to decide. we have a responsibility, those of us that took an oath to take impeachment, to lower prescription drug prices, to pass equal pay for equal work. the democrats are fighting for a progressive policy agenda for america. we have to balance those things as we move forward and defend the constitution and rule of law. i remember reading once that historians say that democracies in a military conflict are slow do rise because they're busy with real life, but after that they are determined to vindicate justice. i think you can say a lot about

the congress being like that and the democratic majority. we have been trying to do other stuff, but get us mad and focused on these breeches of the constitution and we're coming after you. >> i don't have a lot of time left, we know that druch did not ask vladimir putin on his phone call about election interference. we also know that there was briefs in more than 20 states in terms of getting involved, and being able to access the voting roles. we know in your state, a company with a russian investor now, essentially took ownership of a up, hosting maryland's election data, show that allowed to happen? i think the company is no longer allowed to -- does no longer own that company that has election data, but show that allowed to

happen. >>. >> well, first of all it is absolutely scandalous that the president could be speaking to vladimir putin yesterday and to refer to the russian hoax. there was not significant evidence, but special counsel mueller said there was sweeping evidence of the russian campaign. to me in is scandalous that donald trump would froefr it as a hoax. you're right, what took place is a russian oligarch took control of the company that owned the main election vendor in our state. when we learned about it, nobody knew about it, i introduced legislation, we're reintroducing

now to say our election vendors cannot be owned by foreign corporations, and it is part of hr 1 to clean it up. >> i think most americans would be more confident in that is the case. thank you, appreciate your time. more a.m. joy coming up. time. more a.m. joy coming up. at carvana, no matter what car you buy from us,

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we will not hear from the attorney general today. this committee atteintends to conduct what it needs to conduct this oversight and legislative responsibilities. we will make sure that no president becomes a monarch. >> jerry nadler called out attorney general william barr for failing to appear before the committee on thursday. he is now threatening to hold barr in contempt unless he turns over the mueller report on monday morning. hopefully that got a chance to hear -- can you explain what politico has written, that essentially the reason that the

chairman is taking these steps that look like equivocation is they're trying to build a record. if it seems likely one of the issues that will arrive is if each branch is trying to accommodate the others needs. they urge the judge to find it unreasonable. i'm stoorry that was in the "ne york times." it is that reasonable argument? >> no, it's not. i said on this program a couple years ago that donald trump and his administration is a cancer on the united states. i believed it then and i believe it now. you don't build a record when you're trying to deal with canc cancer, you attack it immediately and you remove it before it spreads and infects the body politic as we have seen

this do. we have seen this chamber approach of appeasing the auto accura crat and where did it get us? they say we beat him on a health care message in 2018, that's how we got the house, what has been the response? william barr, the chief enforcement officer said this week they were going to debt mate it including the elimination of pre-existing conditions. to keep the world war two metaphor, enough with the appeasement of this direct threat, where is our churchill that will fight them on the beaches, where is our fdr, our jft who said we will bear any price and bear any burden to defend the success and survival of liberty in the united states. i think this talk of threatening

will get us nowhere but closer to to what this regime wants, which is total control of this government. >> getting a nod of aproefl from sarah there, but what he is saying and to take his point, he is saying the democrats are trying to do two things at one time. to fight, you know, try to prevent donald trump from becomes a monarch, but to do business essentially. all things that donald trump would have to sign, is it off key for democrats to say they're holding the administration accountable but also saying we're going to do these other things to get him to sign them? >> i don't know why they're putting any good faith into this administration. i don't know why they're not taking into account that this is a criminal enterprise, that trump's own people don't seem to have total control of the government and they're influenced by outside parties.

there are things that congress needs to be doing. what we have seen on the gop end is obstructionism that is aimed at making american citizens weeker. they want a one party state, and trumpments to be an auto accurate with that behind them. they're working in tandem, doing it successfully. they're extremely confident, but they're not interested in governmenting, but they're interested in ruling. >> the department's mocrat's re that is that even though it is likely they agree, they're afraid if they take bolder action it will cause them to lose in 2020. it will cause them to lose house seats.

when you look at the data, does that matter if the stakes are as high as both of you are presenting? >> when you take the oath it doesn't say you defend it depending on what polls say, you defend it against all enemies out to assault the integrity of the constitution. remember the terminating film where it will be you don't get it, you will not stop, you cannot collaborate. if you collaborate, you're a collaborator. there is no time it is time, to do anything but that, joy, and let me be very clear again, to

do anything but that is to abdicate the constitutional responsibilities to defend the united states. >> i kind of thing, the way that the auto accurateic grow, and for most americans it is hard to imagine that they could become an autocracy, right? it is hard for people to imagine that that could happen to us. and i will ask each of you to comment on that quickly. do you think part of the disconnect is that there is a certain "this can't happen here mentali mentality"? absolutely and this is fatal. it doesn't happen overnight, it happens as it has happened.

the judiciary, and then you end up with a population that is helpless to this effect. i think people are effecting a movie version of autocracy that is obviously, but that is not how it plays out. >> i will let you get the same word. it happens really slowly and really quickly. >> i don't really blame the american people. right now what we have is the democrats in congress. they have access to the intelligence, they have access to the information, and they need to do a better job telling the people. >> thank you, i really appreciate you for being here. thank you for sounding the al m alarm. coming up, the star joins me next. m. coming up, the star joins me next

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i aassume i met donny deutsche before because i see you on tv all the time. this is the first time we've been on together. >> by the way, i love your work. thank you for having me on here. you're amazing. i'm walking through 30 rock and all of a sudden a young woman with baseball hat and sweats comes over and says you have to come see me. it took me a second and it's joy. when you're not this joy, baseball hat and sweats, and i'm thrilled to be here. >> yes. let's talk a lot about of democrats. we've been talking about them today. you're a messaging guy. it's what your career is based on. they don't seem to know how to explain what's in the mueller report is important and what they're going to do about it. >> that's the big challenge for the next 20 months for democrats, how to whack and chew gum at the same time. here's how to do it, like it or not, voters, we had an exciting

or frightening week, voters will not vote based on obstruction, but do you walk away from it? no. you turn it into a consumer issue which is there are two sets of laws out there. the overriding democratic message is it's a rigged system for the wealthy, they screwed you in taxes, rigged system for the powerful, and it's a rigged system when it comes to law. look at the president and his in-house counsel, and then i'm playing on the same laws. that's a message which resonates with voters. take it out from what it is and turn it into some means something to me. that's the way people vote. >> you have known donald trump for a long time. >> unfortunately. >> what is it? is he trying to be an ought crat in your view? that's what michael cohen said, he wants to be an autocrat, wants to be vladimir putin. >> one of my show's topics is do we use the d word, dictator. we nice and humbly say, he has

the athoughtative -- what's the word everyone uses -- >> authoritarian. >> take it to the next level, he's a historian of history, dictator playbook. what keeps us a free world and free society and free country? free press, separation of powers and independent judicial system and he's trying to take them all down. i believe, and this frightens me, study history and i believe some of the worse thing that's happen in history i think are capable. i think what authoritative figures do is show their hands. i think basically what happened this week with barr, since citizens unite is the most scary thing towards democracy as possible, people should frightened. >> if he loses, will he accent the result of the election? >> absolutely not. he did it last election. he was teeing it up. michael cohen said this and i know this, if he loses, he will get out of office but he will not be a graceful, peace.

transition. i believe he will say it's a rigged system. i believe he's not upon telling people to take to the streets. this is how dangerous and this ma is. >> you have a show coming up and to the and we will be watching. i'm your lead-in tonight. i'm doing "p.m. joy." >> don't screw it up! guys, can she handle this? is she up for it? do i need to put reruns of "full house" in here? >> you can do that. >> new york city you've go, you >> i have a little clip now of pete buttigieg. >> about 80% of the views of the various candidates on the democratic party are pretty well aligned. you're going to see differences from the left most and center most candidates. you will see differences in what wes which to emphasize. at the end of the day while there will be some disagreement over substance, the alignment is pretty strong. what will matter is what kind of message do we want to put forward? >> a lot of what the base is

doing is a assessment, a split screen of you and a young man. >> you calling me old? >> no, i'm just saying, the split screen of trump and him, will the american people be risk adverse enough, even though donald trump is not exactly qualified -- >> good question. it comes down to what happens on camera. i think the three best anti-trumps for different reasons are pete, biden and senator harris because of that. what you get with pete is everything that every democratic winning candidate going back to roosevelt has had, fresh, new face. the establishment doesn't win. the challenge is does he have the strength and gravitas? trump has that. the thing with biden that traditionally with work against him is that he's been there, done that. is the american public ready for comfort food? as kamala did the last two hearings, boy, prosecutorial gravitas in the way she handles herself. those three different flavors

are great anti-trumps for me. >> i look forward to watching you on our air, donny deutsche. welcome to the weekend! >> thank you. but this -- anybody can do the weekdays. it days weekend warriors! >> yes, weekend warriors. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> come back more and tell me what you're doing. make sure to tune in tonight for the premiere of "donny deutsche show" and i like that title. it looks like "saturday night live." and after a thing we call "p.m. joy" 7:00 eastern time. no pressure. ssure. finally organics that work. tested and refined by plant scientists... for twice the results, guaranteed. don't grow a snack, grow a feast. don't grow a flower, grow a million dollar view. this new organic collection of soil and plant food is what you always wanted. no compromise, just results, guaranteed. miracle-gro performance organics.

"a.m. joy" will be back tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. eastern. up next phillip mena is in for alex witt. phillip, happy "star wars" day and may the fourth be with you. >> may the fourth be with you as well, joy. it's also kentucky derby day! a lot going on this saturday. oh, yes. i need a hat. >> thank you very much. welcome to msnbc headquarters in new york. it's high noon in the east, 9:00 a.m. out west. what was left unsaid after the president's hour-long phone call with vladimir putin? the message north korea is sending to washington with its latest launch. a slippery runway into a river that some are calling a miracle. we begin with the new questions about trump diplomacy and how he handles two of the world's most