you are poor. he's fighting for me. >> congrats to dave chappelle. that's going to do it for me. ari is back at 6:00 eastern. "hardball" with chris matthew starts now. >> whose afraid of the big bad mueller. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in new york. not mueller the report, mueller the man. who is it in the picture of mueller sitting and testifying before the senate judiciary committee that puts the fear of god in trump. we are learning that trump's dread of what the moral strength of mueller would look and sound like to spur him to oppose the

special counsel's testimony before the congress. it's clear that trump resents the credibility and clarity mueller might bring to the table, but above all trump fears and knows that mueller has the ability to cut through the smoke screen that protects trump's presidency. the associated press reports that in contemplating the special counsel's testimony, the president stewed for days about the prospect of the media coverage that would be given to mueller, a man trump believes has been lionized across cable news and the front page of the leading newspapers for two years. trump has known the images and feared americans would be captivated by seeing and hearing mueller who has not spoken since being named special counsel. it's that fear to say that bob mueller should not testify this weekend. likewise trump appears scared for the star witness and former white house counsel, don mcgahn

who was the center of the obstruction case against the president. he ignored for documents related to the mueller probe. it comes as the committee prepares to vote to hold william barr in contempt of congress for refusing to reply. given the developments would be in keeping with the strategy to stonewall inquiries at every turn. mimi rocah was a former district attorney in the southern district of new york. i want to start with mimi on this one. first of all, trump's fear of the witness, what do you count that for. people said once you see a witness in the recommend that

has all the power you heard beforehand. me what he's afraid of. >> it's a couple of things. remember unfortunately a lot of americans haven't read the mueller report. >> and never will. >> it's a lot to get through. i recommend reading the executive summaries and mueller testifying is something people will watch. more people will watch than read the report. even if mueller said nothing outside the four corners of the report which he is likely to do, he will limit himself. that's a worthy exercise. i think for a lot of reasons and thank in and of itself terrified trump. beyond that, if he gets into and even lindsey graham seems to agree that mueller should be able to testify about the interactions with barr and those phone calls about what was misrepresented, that's not in the report. that's not anywhere we can read it. we only have bill barr's side of it. that can be damaging.

i don't think mueller will trash barr. i don't think anybody should expect that. even if he just speaks the facts and the truth, it can be damaging. >> let's talk about the marginal value of his testimony on fact. for example, he never came to a verdict. he never told us whether there should be a prosecution or timeout. he never said whether he thought the congress should do that. he left the material and wanted congress to reach for it. should he go further and say yes? the 10 cases of obstruction of justice. will he do that? will he go further? >> i don't know what mueller is prepared to say, but some would ask him the questions and try to drag out of some sort of additional explanations for his

conclusions and testifying is so scary for president trump because it exposes trump's own misrepresentations. the president has been saying for a month now that he was totally exonerated by robert mueller when if you read the report, you know that's not true. if he were to get on camera and do the testimony before the congress tick through the examples of obstruction of justice under review in this report, it could be damaging to the president. >> a couple of thoughts, let's talk about the drama. hollywood big stars don't go on tv much. if you resist that and make your rare, people think wow. you see them. suppose this turns out to be a little confusing. suppose he comes on and someone on the democratic side said would you have indicted?

i left that to whoever was able to read my report. would you encourage congress? i left that. what happens if it's another one of the disillusioning moments. >> there is a risk of that happening and i don't expect him to flame throw or attack president trump and he will have that level of respect. the democrats can formulate questions that evoke answers. >> give me one? >> does the respect exonerate the president, yes or no? >> the attorney general did not give us the truth. >> right. that's facts. he can say no to that question because it's in black and white in the report. this report does not exonerate the president even though the president said the opposite. the democrats have an opportunity to formulate the questions from mueller understanding that he's not going to go further or get ahead of his skis in any way. >> ever another set of questions, why did you make so

many referrals. there is a lot of potential criminality here. >> right. it's a lot of referrals. that's one area where they are unhikely to get a lot of information. those they can ask categorical questions. are they under seal because of the investigations without telling us anything or are there indictments that are sealed? that's the area where the time is not well spent. what would be better time used is actually talking about the substance of the report. that's something that mueller is going to be more likely to answer because it's lbl public. there could be grand jury issues and the other thing about seeing mueller testify and seeing something that people who read the report know, it does not exonerate. mueller is going to come across as looking not like a witch hunter. >> that's the good side.

he also has the robert de niro. the guy on snl. the brooding presence that walks into the room. there is breaking news this hour. the "new york times" obtained 10 years of tax information about donald trump between 1985 and -- there is the news story. in 1995 he reported losses of $46 million from core businesses, largely casinos, hotels and retail space. they continued to louis money every year totalling more than a billion. according to the "new york times," year after year, mr. trump appears to have lost more money than any other individual american taxpayer. when compared his results with detailed information the irs compiles on a sampling of high income earners. this is coming oust nowhere. the first grab at it.

all the losses means all the taxes not required to be paid. these are all deductions. basically. >> this is trump's greatest fear of people actually being able to see he is not a great business man. and two, there is real tax fraud here. >> as joe biden would say, folks, it's time to reexamine the news report. what about the first look at the news breaking now? paf paf it follows on the heels of the investigation that the "new york times" has been pursue into trump's taxes. it's important to keep in mind the decade of tax returns predates the more recent years before he became president and shows a pattern year after year after year of trump not paying taxes and having severe business losses that gets to the heart of what mimi was speaking about. it undermines the narrative that trump created and spun for

himself as this master businessman, this super wealthy guy worth $10 billion. that number seems to have come oust thin air. what we have as documented in the report is suffered a lot of losses. >> do you know how many were created artificially? >> possibly. i don't know. i'm not a tax expert and i want to read the reporting. >> someone is smiling heavily. the democrats they know they want this information. is he has rich as he said and pay a fair share as most people make in 48 years say i pay this percentage? what's he paying? >> i want to know because he could have conflicts of interest that are dictating the foreign policy. that's the major reason. that has to do with his ego and how he feels about it punishally. that's not a concern to me as a

citizen. >> is he on the hook? do they have black mail material and is he indepth and making certain decisions as a result of those debts. >> is that the chief reason for keeping that to himself? >> u.s. congressman dan filty is a member of the house ways and means committee. your chairman has been trying to get this information base upon the statue. what do you make of this politically and statutorily. >> it's obviously interesting information and in some ways not all that surprising because this president has been the master of ob fussication with his own interest and wealth. he need seems to be poor when he needs to be poor and rich when he needs to be rich. he is exercising the authority. it has been used regularly and not always for the president,

obviously. we need to know whether or not the irs is properly auditing and enforcing the tax laws. all that much more important, but further the response from the secretary of the treasury s view that our inquiry does not represent a legitimate legislative purpose. it's just a bizarre thing for him to say. it is not up to donald trump,s his secretary of the treasury or a lawyer he hires to determine under the constitutional separation of power what is is a legitimate subject of legislative inquiry. that is up to the legislative branch. >> not that you need it, you have looks to me like he has huge tax losses that allows him to avoid if not escape taxes by

whatever means he has. one is huge tax losses and losses of revenue that he sets and claims no income. >> it's clearly elevating the need for us to get this information and to determine whether the legislation is necessary to ensure that the irs properly enforces tax law on the president. the president raises this question by the way he uses his unilateral authority as we have seen referenced in the mueller report and other instances to direct people that he believes to be under his charge and he thinks work directly for him rather than the american people. to do things to protect him. we have serious questions as to whether or not that is the case as it relates to the irs enforcing the laws of the united states on this president and this report just makes that question all that much more significant. >> if trump continues to use

every trick and ignoring subpoenas for documents or testimony, ignoring citations for contempt even if they can get one through the justice department. if he runs it all the way to the end and said i'm not doing enough because what i want you to do is show your teeth. impeach me. go ahead and do it. that will get me reelected. with a strong economy and you guys coming after me like wolf, i will be able to say, if it weren't for them we would have a stronger economy and all they do is attack me. what nancy pelosi apparently believes is that she figured out trumps wants to impeach him so you can be portrayed as a negative force in the country. >> it's a plausible argument and it seems he enjoys the notion of us versus them and he wants to really the troops and this is a big experience. i don't think we can make a decision on the use of the tool

of impeachment based on the politics of the moment or even trying to outthink the devious mind of donald trump. we have to do it based on whether or not the constitution is being i have latd. if we come to that conclusion, we don't have a choice. >> even if it hurts you politically. >> we absolutely have to put the short-term politics aside and think about the long-term precedent we are setting for this country. we cannot allow a president of the united states to just so completely ignore the constitution and the rule of law and think it might affect the next election, decide we are not going to do what the framers of the constitution expected us to do. >> sounds like great government. i wonder what the speaker is thinking tonight. thank you. as always, thank you, u.s. congressman. sticking around. we need her for another segment.

spy versus spy. attorney general barr believes the u.s. government spied on the trump campaign. fbi director christopher wrai has a different view. wray is a public servant. you can tell him apart from the hacks. the republican cover up. >> the special counsel's finding is clear. case closed. >> wow. republicans in congress are doing everything they can to protect the president from any oversight scrutiny. forget rules and integrity. protect the president while they are sitting in dangerous precedent and betraying their own institution. why is joe biden winning so much of the polling. what's going on here? they more than doubled the support of bernie and one big thing they see as the safest bet to beat the incumbent.

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the political campaign is a big deal. >> you are not suggesting that spying occurred? >> i don't -- well -- i guess you could -- i think there is spying did occur. yes, i think spying did occur. >> that was william barr igniting a firestorm alleging that the fbi spied on president trump's 2016 campaign. today fbi director and christopher wray disputed what he does for a living. >> when fbi agents conduct investigations against mobsters

and terrorists and other criminals, do i believe they are engaging in spying when they are following investigative policies and procedures? >> well, that's not the term i would use. >> do you have any evidence that any illegal surveillance into the campaigns or individuals associated with the campaigns by the fbi occurred? >> i don't think i personally have any evidence of that sort. >> barr faced intense criticism for his parodying of the president's talking points of fbi surveillance much people connected to his campaign. just last week he doubled down on the use of the term spying. here he goes. >> i don't think the word spying has any pejorative connotation. it's gad english word that doesn't have synonyms because it's the broadest word incorporating all forms of

covert intelligence collection. i'm not going to back off the word. up until the outrage, it is commonly used to authorized activity. >> it is not commonly used by the department. my time is up. >> it's commonly used by me. >> mimi is back with former chief policy director of the house republican conference. mimi, thank you for sticking around. i think that question sounds pejorative. >> in two ways. >> his statement was pe jorative and spying is imsupplying unauthorized by the deep state. whatever happened in the beginning of this investigation as we have discussed many times was court-authorized. like it or not like it, it was court authorized. the second thing is, he said

spying on the campaign. he's trying to make it seem like as trump does daily, the focus here was the deep state trying to get into the trump campaign. no. the fbi and other law enforcement was trying to investigate what russia was doing, perhaps in the campaign and trying to do it without blowing up the trump campaign and not saying we have to look at what russia is doing because they keep meeting with russians. they did it in an under cover way. >> thanks for coming on because you have so much expertise. any of us who watched the americans the whole way through understood counter intelligence. we, the americans, the real americans were looking out for what the rugsz were up to. that's called counter intelligence. that's not normally put down as spying. >> that's right. the word spying actually is not a word that is regularly used by

intelligence agencies or officers. or by law enforcement. it's not a word that is regularly used in that skpx that world. barr worked for the central intelligence agency and has been an attorney general before. he knows this. when spying is used occasionally, it's to describe fellow american who is have betrayed the country and who are working on behalf of a foreign power against the country or sometimes, but less frequently about the work our intelligence officer dos overseas. it's never used to describe what our law enforcement officers and counter intelligence does in investigating counter intelligence threats to the country. as much as barr tried to protect and defebt his use of the word spying, his true intent was revealed by who else he said about that. he called into question whether the investigations were

authorized and adequately predicated. he was trying -- by his own words, he was suggesting they may not have been on the up and up. they may not have been legal. we can understand through those words what he meant by spying and what his intention was. >> we have a hell of a story bricking. >> the "new york times" obtained 10 years of tax information. mr. trump reported losses of $46 million from his core businesses. largely casinos and hotels and retail space and apartment buildings. they continue to lose money totalling more than a billion dollars for the losses for the decade. according to the "new york times" report out this evening, year after year, mr. trump appears to have lost more money than any other individual taxpayer in the country.

let's bring david kay johnston. does this square with the information you had all along? >> absolutely this is what i have been trying to tell people. it is consistent with what i reported when i got trump's 20051040 tax return and what i reported back in the 90s when he arranged to shed a billion dollars of debt. these losses that the "new york times" shows are way beyond the losses he could take from dekreeshiating real estate. these show donald trump is not the moderned my ass who turns everything to gold. he is the to and the wizard pulled back the curtain and revealed the con man. >> i was thinking that word as we first got this report. one good way to roll up losses is depreciation. according to the new york times and this is the killer for

tomorrow's news. trump paid no federal income taxes for eight of the 10 years. i want to stick with you. you know the guy's character and mo. this is what so many people supported. he was able to drum up enough cost and other intangibles to justify not paying any taxes for all the people who don't make a billion dollars. someone who pays 40 a year and pays taxes and they pay a big check if it's not with held already. here's this character who pays no taxes eight out of ten years. that's what a lot of people suspected was the reason he kept it secret. >> there is not now and never has been verifiable evidence that donald trump ever had a billion dollars. what we know from public records and his actions and this report in the new york times is that money flows in and it flows out

faster than it flows in. one of the reasons we should all be concerned about that is someone in search for money to maintain the appearance that they're wealthy is likely to commit crimes and be open to various actions and we don't have a definitive answer. laundering money for russians and others through real estate deal, some of which i have written about that make no sense as a business deal, but absolutely make sense as money laundering and pay off operations. >> did you respect this? >> look, i think people have long wondered why the president has been so careful to hide his taxes. it is his red line. i think most of us expected that maybe they might reveal one or two or both things. he was not as wealthy which i

couldn't care less about, but more importantly, does he actually contribute to the country? does he pay taxes like every other hardworking american? you get into the other money laundering issues and potential compromise by foreign powers that david mentioned as well. at the most basic level for hardworking americans, to know that donald trump really didn't pay taxes at least for the bulk of this 10-year period while they are working so hard and didn't inherit millions of dollars and struggle to make ends meet and still pay taxes and this alleged billionaire in new york city paying essentially nothing. i think that creates a problem for him in 2020. >> i tell you the average person out there who gets out and puts their hat on or baseball cap or something to get through the hours they have to put their taxes together. i have to sit there with all this paperwork. i have to be honest.

you feel like a chump because you are just being honest. living in that house and living like he did with the plains and everything else and he came up with tax dodges, depreciation allowances and stuff that he justified to get out of it. what you are paying in dollars, he is evading in millions. >> one of them as you are saying, he didn't contribute in any way for a good chunk. >> to america. >> to the american economy while trying to pass it. this is where i do care if he's rich. i care that he was trying to pass himself off as this great charitable person and i'm rich and i have a charity and that's a cam, too. >> no wonder he was being audited. >> the other question is are these losses real? is this smart moving around money or is there tax fraud

here? my guess is if he was trying to hard to hide it, he's not a really rich guy. what scheme has he created so that he doesn't have to pay taxes? >> the one question i want to go back to, anybody can have a different reaction because they didn't want a bunch of think tank people. they wouldn't be so kind as to say you don't to have to pay taxes for 10 years. you get a sharpy accountant and you figure out ways to do it. he probably did it legally, technically and faces the fact that nobody is going to believe that's fair. >> chris, first of all, in an earlier story in the "new york times" they said without question, donald trump and his family have been commit tax fraud for years and as soon as the authorities began investigating the federal judge marianne trump barry, she

resigned because that stopped the investigation. donald trump had two fraud trials and lost both of them. he was excoriated by the evidence. he is a criminal level tax cheat and it's one of the reasons it's important that congress you should under this anti-corruption law that you and i talked about needs to get the returns and have them audited by staff experts. >> we are talking about this breaking story on "hardball." decade in the red. trump tax figures show over $1 billion in business losses. we have the author on right now. a "new york times" investigative reporter. two questions. the big headline story. how did he come up with the losses? were they all depreciation and intangibles? >> chris, a small portion of that is depreciation where you can write off the cost of the

building over a period of years. most of this is banks, money, money from bond investors that he put in his casinos that never supported them. he was able to record these colossal losses. some was before that and we see that there is a couple of odd income streams that keep him afloat in the late 80s. >> what about not paying taxes in eight of the ten years. explain how he managed that? >> it's the magic of recording business losses. you organize your businesses in pass through entities. it throws on to your tax returns. if you went unprofitable and you can still manage to live, you can use those losses to write off your income from everything else. in some years, he is making 10 or $20 million on stock trades and able to not pay any taxes because of his business losses. it's a wonderful thing.

it rolls over year to year. there is only one year in this 10-year period. >> questions on bad trade craft. how do you get the tax information to the senate and house ways and means that they haven't been able to get to. >> they don't go through the front door. donald trump was a busy fellow during these years and dealing with banks and casino regulators and had auditors for various agencies crawling up his business. there were a lot of places that this information was floating around and we were able to pull it together. i would have to protect it. >> you have eight oust ten years not paying federal income taxes. how did you get the information? >> it's a print out from what is his tax transcript. they create the database that is file and has every line item from the 1040 and schedules.

we have dozens of points of data in the cycle that includes whether you paid any income tax and if you paid minimum tax and how that was. i paid x dollars this year on april 15th and paid what i hadn't paid in my withholding. it's hurting me and i don't get to pay bills i would lying to pay and to hear this behavior by awfully unfair. i want to bring in right now, congressman, thank you for waiting around. this story is huge. for months, ever since this guy stuck his head up and said he wanted to be president, the american people said tell us about yourself. how much do you pay? are you paying a fair share? we find out that eight out of 10

years, he didn't pay nothing. nada. nothing. >> yeah. i'm seeing this with you for the first time. i'll start with what i think most americans, the vast majority believe. every president and everybody who runs for president should just release their tax returns. we shouldn't be learning about this two years into his presidency from a leak. >> if the american people found out the guy is prancing around from the airplanes and the skyscrapers and owns everything in the world, golf courses all over the world and doesn't pay tax, people would say that's not fair. you can't be our leader. he's not my guy. my people pay taxes. >> hope so. i have thousands of people in my congressional district. trump and the republican congress took away their state

and local deduction. they didn't do anything to take it away. >> they didn't vote for trump. he is screwing the taxes and the middle class because he wouldn't vote for him in new jersey and pennsylvania. now that you have this story and everybody will have it tomorrow morning or earlier online, the fact that trump didn't pay taxes for eight of 10 years and he had a billion dollars in losses rung up by what the times has been able to get and they are not able to get everything, will this change trump's power that he had seen and looks now like a guy who skated? >> i quit predicting when that's going to happen. i don't know if it will change the minds of his staunchest defenders, but it adds to our effort to get his tax returns through the front door and i believe we will. the law is absolutely clear that the chairman of the ways and means committee has the right to

request the president's tax returns. we will get those and hey, you know what? if he made the money back fair and square, we can tell the american people about it. >> under the inherent subpoena power of the house, would you vote to send the sergeant of arms to arrest mnuchin at his house or an airplane or whatever? >> i think we will win this in the courts. the law is absolutely clear. for all the norm this is administration violated thus far, they have respected court orders and i believe they will when they are ordered to deliver this information. >> an expert on trump, you are that. if you don't get the pulitzer for this, it's unwinnable. mimi rocah and evan mcmullen. trump's defenders in congress are trying to slam the door and

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the met morphosis of the republican party began in the campaign when donald trump remained the party's nominee after the release of that awful "access hollywood" tape. it accelerated when the party drugged off proof that president trump paid a porn star and playboy may plate to keep quiet about alleged affairs. the transition is complete. the congressional republicans have closed ranks defending him

against scrutiny and abdicating the constitutionally mandated oversight authority. let's take a look. >> have i been confusing on this? it's over. what else? >> now we know without a single doubt that there was no collusion by the trump campaign with russia. the real collusion was actually with the democrats. >> i would like to move on. >> sean hannity called democrats psychotic for wanting to do their job and accused some are using dictatorial tactics. watch him. >> they're lost their mind. democratic congressman wants to handcuff the attorney general of the united states and have the sergeant of arms drag him before the committee and go to prison. no trial, no charges, nothing. welcome to saddam hussein's usa.

how the senate majority letter has the kmeks and balances between the white house. all to protect trump. you want to hear what mitch connell had to say. mitch is doing anything he can for trump. mitch is doing anything he can for trump. but allstate actually helps you drive safely... with drivewise. it lets you know when you go too fast... ...and brake too hard. with feedback to help you drive safer. giving you the power to actually lower your cost. unfortunately, it can't do anything about that. now that you know the truth... are you in good hands? when i needed to create a better visitor experience.

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it gets worse. senate majority leader mitch mcconnell took to the floor today to trump at president

trump's claims of complete and total exoneration. the kentucky republican acting as judge and jury went further by declaring case closed. he's perry mason now. let's watch. >> two years of exhaustive investigation and nothing to establish the fanciful conspiracy theory that democr democratic politicians and tv talking heads had treated like a foregone conclusion. the special counsel's finding is clear. case closed! case closed. this ought to be good news for everyone. but my democratic colleagues are working through the five stages of grief. >> it's amazing the number of people going for a long time with americans and russians for something that didn't happen. steve israel is a director of cornell university of politics

and former rnc chair. what do you make about mitch mcconnell. i thought he wanted to believe in all the old processes and he has given away the stories or subpoenas or consechlts and subpoenas for the congress for demands of testimony for documents. he doesn't believe in any of that. he is a trumper all the way. >> chris, this is a reflection of how much the paradigm has shifted on capitol hill. senators supposedly are there to protect the institutions, particularly a republican side and now more interested in protecting themselves. the fact of the matter is this is all about reelection or maintaining control in power. the whole thing with the russia peace or the obstruction piece has never been a democrat-republican partisan

battle. this has been born out of the attack on our country by the russians. the fact that you have political leadership with the republican side that refuses to even acknowledge that much of the narrative is not surprising at this stage, quite honestly. at the end of the day, this is about how do we hold the senate and reelect the president and how do we maintain the power and control. nothing else is getting done much beyond that. >> revolt and development. both wealthy men worked to keep the president's tax returns from the public. and now we get pieces television and like a billion loss here and eight out of ten years taxes not paid there. we will get it in pieces. we are not getting it all. now the president is going to be forcing his flax to put out the truth to prove they are right when they don't want to put out the truth. >> this is a real dilemma for them. this administration is not

bothered by dielement as. they will double down. >> we don't know. >> politically i think this is how to plays out. this is a love or loathe electorate. 35% loves donald trump no matter what. the tax equivalent of shooting someone on fifth avenue and not losing koates. 45% loathe him and give him more excuse to vote against him. this is about the 20% in the middle who has not made a judgment. the fierce independence have a rigged system and we have a president who said support the troops and didn't fund them by paying his taxes. this could be his achilles heel for those who have not just made a judgment. >> i think most americans pay their taxes honestly and when they sit down they put the papers together and they hate it. they hate having to do it because they don't want to make a mistake and they want to walk away with it.

a couple of close calls, but i think i did the right thing. that's how the system works. you are the judge. it's a self-reporting system. there is nobody hanging over your shoulder. >> you don't want a president who makes that mistake. your president will pay his fair share. this president appears not to have done that. >> all the losses we will find out to the president's advantage. i think when you don't have to pay taxes, people wonder how come you are a billionaire. it doesn't seem to square. you are supposed to pay based on how much money you make. how do you stay rich and have skyscrapers and fleets of airplanes and any number of golf courses and you didn't make any money? a lot of this is played up into how real estate deals are done and particularly how they are financed and how the banks, quite frankly, carry those loans

and that debt on their books. there are a lot of moving parts here at end of the day when you are running for public office, the expectation is that you do come clean with the american people about how you have been positioned in the system. so there is no crime in being a billionaire and having wealth and nothing wrong with that. if you take advantage of the system in a way that to your point, chris, taxpayers look at it and say wait a minute. each year you continued to play the game that you didn't have to pay any taxes. what does that say to them. that's why donald trump didn't want it exposed. the narrative is not a good one. they got it to whether or not he has given charitably. we haven't gotten to the foreign entanglements yaunld the borders and how that shows up on his tax books. there is a lot that the

president didn't want to talk about. >> she still applied for a stage. his name is murray. she answered every question. people were tired of asking questions. a former congressman. still up next, one big reason the polls look good for joe biden, we know the big reason in a minute. we will explain it in a minute. i think. minute we will explain it in a minute i think.

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the latest 2020 poll numbers give us a glimpse into how this country see this is coming election. by that i mean both sides. 2020 looks to both republicans and democrats like it will be a tight one. the idea that the country was ready to dump donald trump in a fun filled splash is no longer in the picture. he has his approval rating ever. this largely explains the pattern of the poll numbers among democrats. joe biden is at 40%. two out of five democrats back him for the nomination. this is remarkable given the large number of candidates to choose from. except for biden and bernie sanders, all are in single digits. sanders is even dropping. this tell tells me that they are rallying around biden as the best chance of dumping trump.

seeing the challenge of beating trump, nancy pelosi wants her fellow democrats to place their bets and own the center left. own the mainstream. that's why they are taking off of the polls because people know him. listen to what biden said. >> i make no apologies. i am a union man. the country wasn't built by wall street bankers, ceos and hedge fund managers. it was built by you, the great american middle class. >> that's the reason biden is rising in the polls. democrats want to beat trump. they can withstand the coming assault on the hard left on socialism and open borders. one word of kaugds for me. there is no way to know with any precision how they will look

head to head in the full fire of the 2020 general election. no way to know now. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. all in with chris hayes starts now. >> tonight on all in. >> we took an oath not to protect donald trump. we took an oath to protect and serve the constitution. "avatar" mitch mcconnell tries to end investigations of the president and elizabeth warren persists. >> the way we do that is begin impeachment proceedings now against this president. >> tonight senator elizabeth warren on her resounding call for impeachment on the senate floor. plus, the leader of democrats in the senate, chuck schumer on the strategy for republican obstruction. >> of course he wants to move o. he wants to cover up. >> senator chris murphy on the trump administration's escalation with iran. john tester o