we have a special fall back with kate snow and comedian susie essman from "curb your enthusiasm." hope you join us. here's "hardball" with chris matthews. will don, jr. take the fifth? let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. donald trump is defending his oldest son's attempt to get dirt on hillary clinton and he could plead his fifth amendment right to not testify on the grounds it would incriminate him. led by richard bur, he served

the president's son with a subpoena. they want to question other things about the meeting with russians at trump tower in june of 2016, a meeting he took with the promise of negative kremlin oppo on hillary clinton. he was highly unlikely to appear in person. he could invoke his rights in a written response. the differences between what donald trump told the senate and what's contained in the mueller report itself. they want to ask donald trump, jr. about his account of what he told his father about that trump tower meeting. in his 2017 testimony, trump, jr. said he did not inform his father about the meeting beforehand. the mueller report shows that michael cohen said otherwise, recalling that trump, jr. told his father they were moving forward. he said he didn't know russia

was mentioned. now the president is defending his son and the meeting with the russians. >> the mueller report came out. my son is a good person. my son testified for hours and hours. my son was totally exonerated by mueller. who frankly does not like donald trump, me, this donald trump. frankly for my son after being exonerated to now get a subpoena to go again and speak again after close to 20 hours of telling everybody that would listen about a nothing meeting? yeah, i'm pretty surprised. >> should he fight the subpoena? >> we will see what happens. i'm really surprised. >> u.s. congress, raja krishna

moorth who serves on the house intelligence committee and washington bureau chief. i have to go to the congressman first. this is an amazing development. a republican is standing up to trump saying we have a problem and we have to talk to your son. >> this is not a partisan exercise. this is a republican committee chair in the senate issuing a subpoena to dron trump, jr. to explain himself. there is testimony needed about this very important meeting in trump tower in new york city. he is doing his duty. he's doing the job of trying to pursue more evidence, more information, and his counter intelligence mission as well. >> i want to say, you want

everybody on this one. he is asking the son to testify against the old man. he said if he said the old man knew about that meeting, the russian representative of the creme lip in june of 2016 and the old man said i didn't know about it, he said my father is a liar. >> that's right. that's what burr wants to discuss. in the counter intelligence component of the mueller report, we haven't seen any of that. we don't know about the methodologies the russians were using. that might be what he is trying to assess out. did the russians use these techniques to get to donald trump and did donald trump finally add that missing part of the game. >> this is your line of the country. the counter intelligence part, the russians were up to something.

they said we got nothing out of the meeting. what they were told is the russians wanted to help the campaign. donald trump, jr. said i love it. this was a signal, intentional or not, from the trump campaign to the russians, if you intervene in this election, we don't mind. if donald trump, sr. knows about this and it implicates him in giving a green light to the russians to do what you are going to do. this meeting happened a week before the russians started leaking information they had stolen from the democrats. a week before. they must have felt good they could get away with it. >> the testimony from donald trump about the meeting about the knowledge beforehand. >> it's important and also illegal to lie to congress. this is not the only example of

inconsistencies between his testimony and what was said in the mueller report and testimony given in front of senate committees. not just the trump tower meeting, but don, jr. discussing the project in moscow. michael cohen telling committees and they talked about it much more frequently when don, jr. admitted in the house committee. >> by standing firmly behind it, they are defending congress's right to fulfill oversight supports. "the washington post" reports that negotiations over the testimony dragged on. he believed they were defying the authority. trump allies are saying the republican shouldn't cross the president's family. what is this? the roman ofs? a person said catch this.

no lawyer would allow the pr stunt from a republican senator, too cowardly to stand up to his boss. and the rest of the resistance democrats. these guys sound like thugs and characters out of a memberster movie. several filed suit including house minority leader kevin mccarthy. congressman, this gets to the thing i wondered about. why don't they stand up to congress to get to the truth with their oversight? why don't they have the integrity. they are on the side of the congress when it comes to the constitution. he treats him like he is to be shunned because he did this.

>> that's right, chris. i have to say there is one other instance where another republican has actually called for more information and that is def devin nunez. nunez and schiff asked for the counter intelligence findings from the department of justice because we are statutorily obligated to receive that information. hopefully there are more republicans like mr. nunez and senator burr who want us to perform our constitutional duty to overtight. this is not partisan. this is about whether the president is accountable anybody. in this situation, i think senator bur is right. he needs to get to the bottom of what happened to the conversation with trump, jr. and his father. one issue with regard to counter intelligence. if it is a lie, what don, jr. has been saying with regard to the conversation with his father

and the russians know that, that in itself is called information that could be used against don who by the way is the head of the trump organization to get to his father. this is something that is very serious. >> the russians know all about that meeting. natalia was an agent of the essentially the attorney general of russia. she was sent there on a mission to see if the trump team would bite at what they gave them. we still don't know whether they really bit and used it, but maybe senator burr is standing up for the constitution and one step too much to allow donald trump, jr. to get away with what he said before and he wants to put him on the record and ensure his committee is not being used as a tool by extension of moscow. >> let's talk about the political and legal gain.

donald trump, jr. doesn't work for his father technically, mick mulvaney told cbs news they should have gotten a heads up about the subpoena. >> the fact that the president's son got a subpoena from a republican-led committee, i have no difficulty in bipartisanship, but the president of the united states's son and at least get a heads up is bad form. >> i have been thinking about this. i watched pelosi and i don't think she is indifferent. i think she is calculating. at some point, i think she might be moved less by the concerns about the number of seats she might endanger in 2020 to the paramount question. that means obstructing congress. >> her language has been shifting over the last couple of days or describing the situation here as a constitutional crisis where you have a white house that is refusing to comply. the president said he doesn't

want anybody, his son included, participating in this with people who are desperate for information. talking about finding people or talking about jails in the senate where you can hold people. you don't have to go that far to figure out what you can do. we will see, but she is still really stuck with the idea through public comments that impeachment will be bad for democrats and could compromise the election. >> what you and i have studied, this history of scandal. nixon went down on article three because he obstructed the investigation of watergate. joe mccarthy obstructed the investigation of joe carthy. he didn't abuse witnesses, they all do that. they could get him on investigating. if you let that break and say nice try, you're finished, that

gets to the most partisan of politicians. >> i think you're right, but i believe there is a story that has to be told. 3% of americans said they read the mueller report. that's an overestimation. >> what's the cardinal number there? how many people? i think you are way over. . >> what was so compelling about watergate? some of us are old enough to remember. it was developed through congressional hearings. don, jr. probably won't testify and we will see how much burr will fight that, but there are other people to talk about what happened with the campaign and how the campaign aided and a betted. there are people they can fight to bring up on the obstruction and taxes and emoluments. you have to tell the public the story and maybe that will lead to impeachment, oversight and truth first. they need to fight to do this.

>> that's the big question. the fact that mueller didn't find a crime in taking help from a foreign government because he was not sure about the law or the knowledge of the law by donald trump and the president-elect, the big defense of trump is he didn't know anything. his son didn't know nothing. it was illegal to take money in a presidential campaign. that's the defense he has. the prime reason to have this investigation is to find out what they could do again and what role did americans play with them? that's a bigger question. there were 140 contacts at least between trump officials and russian officials. even if those contacts did not rise to the level of criminal conspiracy, what happened during the conversations.

was there information that would be embarrassing or would be used against the officials and endanger our national security? hopefully people can start to see it from the long-term national interests and helps to explain why the heck does the president keep cozy iing up to vladimir putin. he then said vladimir putin didn't want to have anything to do with him. he said yes, the russians are involved in venezuela. we should-that we haven't seen yet starts to answer those questions.

i want to go to malcolm on that that. would be great theater and great history. it will be recording history in realtime. with exercising the ability of what could be crimes or could be malfeasance on the part of the government. robert mueller started this investigation or jim comey started it as a counter intelligence investigation to see if russia was influencing and impacted our elections. well, maybe we don't need to see it as a theater. maybe we need to see it as the great education of the american public as to what a foreign power has done to us. if they don't do it, we can do it again. >> this history is already there and people who want to find out

what the russians did to us and what we did with them is pair mountly important to us. going into the future. raja krishnamoorthi. democrat from illinois. ilcolv jill colvin, you are great. i love associated press reporters because it's the last reporting that you get from people who don't make any money. just kidding. up next, the secret of trump's taxes. he lost more than a billion dollars in the late 80s and early 90s. what else is he hide something the new york state lawmakers are trying to uncover the truth. the republicans's solution to deadly gun violence in schools. arm the teachers? after the massacre in florida, they want to put more guns in the schools. much more to come tonight. stay with us. much more to come tonight. stay with us if you have moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis, month after month, the clock is ticking

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welcome back to "hardball." the state instead made it easier to ob stain the state tax returns of any new yorker. this is about donald trump. the bill was passed along party lines and would amend an existing law to the state department of taxation in al ban tow release any state tax returns requested by leaders of the u.s. house ways and means, senate finance or joint committee on taxation, all in washington. they would have to show it would serve a specified and legitimative legislative purchasy purpose and the committee has made a request to the secretary of the treasury for federal returns or return information. it only applies to state returns and not at the federal returns at the center of the standoff. with steve mnuchin and the chairman of the house ways and means committee, richard neal.

the secretary refused that request for six years of the tax returns. the secretary shall furnish the requested information to the committee. they need the approvalful democratic controlled state assembly. the democrat said he would apply it as long as it applies to everyone and not just trump. a couple of things, the average person wants to know if you do succeed in getting you through the other house. you get it through the governor. will that give us a sense of the answers to the federal tax payments and does he pay any. to deutsch bank, how much is through state returns. >> the state returns generally do have a lot of federal information.

i expect it will be very useful to the house ways and means should we pass this bill. >> let me talk about the politics. it's a party line vote in new york in albany. did they say -- you are an attorney, of course. i wondered about the term of attainer. is this aimed at one person? me how you got it through the assembly. the senate. >> in the senate, they said the bill was too broad. they laid the case that it's not a bill of attain eer because the is no punishment involved. i feel confident that this is very, very firm on constitutional grounds. new york has ever right to pass any bill if it's constitutional and sharing tax information and we share tax files all the time with state residents with the

federal government and other states. you pass it to the sneat. you have done that. you pass the lower house. you probably will be able to do that. somebody takes the returns in a manila involve and walks them down to the chairman of the how it happens from al ban tow washington, his state tax returns are delivered by hand or whatever. >> i'm assuming it will be that way. again, the state of new york shares tax returns with the federal government all the time and other states. there is a process in place. >> i'm serious about the questions. i want to see how donald trump will stop you in your tracks. he lawyered up the kazoo. where do you see him drawing a

roadblock against you? he sues you and joins you and said the state commissioner cannot deliver the taxes. don't you expect that? >> i think we have seen as a private citizen and as a political figure, again, i think new york has every right to pass laws around tax privacy and the sharing of tax documents. that's what other states do. >> what do you expect to happen if he sues? >> we spent the first part of the show saying his son won't testify about something that never happened. he said no. he's a litigious guy and he will litigate. >> he will, but we are prepared for that. we have a fine attorney general in tish james. we have the firm grounding of the fact that we do this all the time. the federal government shares

tax information with these congressional committees. it's donald trump's administration as you have noted that is currently breaking the law by not sharing the tax information of trump with the three committees that have the legal authority to request that information. >> the statue, i want to ask you about the state. do you believe he's under audit? >> i have no idea, chris. who knows what to believe when it comes to his tax returns. one day he said he is under audit and the other day he is just stonewalling. i believe we need clarity which is why the bill is so important. it's important for new yorkers to not just stand on the sidelines as we face this showdown. we make a difference here as the home of donald trump, as the home for many of the companies and as a legislature that really believes that no one is above the rule of law. >> i think your constituents

agree with that since they voted 87% against him. i don't think they change their minds. good luck with the effort. sounds like it's going to happen. thank you very much. the republican governor of florida makes it legal for more teachers, here it come, guns for more guns. solve the gun problem with more guns. is it the best way to keep the children? i'm not sure it will keep the teachers safe. i will speak with a teacher from stoneman douglas high school in florida. douglas high school in florida. when did you see the sign?

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the communities in colorado in north carolina continue to mourn following the latest deadly shootings of a few days ago, lawmakers in florida say the solution is more guns. ron desantis expanded a program put in place shortly after last year's parkland massacre that allows some school employees with roles outside the classroom like coaches and librarians to carry guns. want your tennis coach armed? this makes all teachers eligible to carry guns and now everybody, the teacher in front of you has a gun. school districts need to approve which teachers are allowed to participate and they would have to go through a background check, psychiatric e valiation

and training. great to have you o. democratic congressman as well. everybody watching has an attitude about this conversation. there is nobody who isn't thinking and feeling about this. you are a teacher and in a classroom. talk about the feelings between teacher and student and what having a gun in a pocket or holster would do to that feeling. >> chris, thank you. since we had the shooting that took place on february 14th last year, we have actually had this discussion quite a bit with our students. we had debates with students in the classroom and the overwhelming majority of my students and teachers completely disagree with this decision by the state legislature and by the governor to increase guns in the classroom. it is a bad idea and miniscule

minority and a handful of teachers and a handful of students are remotely interested in doing this. just a bad idea. >> how does that echo or not with your team? that's the same district. >> people think this was a horrible idea. there is a reason that 70% of teenagers and their parents think it's a terrible idea. >> why do they think it's aed about idea? >> they are already concerned about school violence and the idea that we will address school violence by putting more guns in the school and creating more possibility that is something could go wrong and their kids can be exposed to violence is an awful idea and a ridiculous way to approach it and a terrible problem. >> you know what you are talking about. i never taught in a tough neighborhood where kids give lip to the teachers. what happens if you say go to the vice principal and check in,

i'm suspending you for three days. something that bothers the kid. you have a gun. what is that situation like. you are armed and telling the kid i have authority over you. take it. >> again, i have been in tougher schools and that's not quite the situation, but exactly. the kid may challenge you and depending on the experience level of the teacher, their blood pressure may rise and they may make a mistake and the students could overpower the teacher and get the gun. as the congressman said, there are many, many bad outcomes that can come of this and few positive outcomes. one other thing, the reason we are in schools is for students to learn. the number one thing students have said they would be worried about is where would the gun be? i can see the level of the students from what they were

prior to the shooting and after the shooting. they are not performing at the level they should be. they are having enough trouble as it is. i know if there was a gun in the classroom as i'm sure other students will wonder who has the gun and that would be the number one thing on their mind as opposed to being there for education and as far as if this is truly for safety, this is not the way to go. this is to sell more guns and has nothing do with safety. would you want a person with only 144 hours of training to be the one carrying a gun when we had a deputy officer with the sheriffs department, 33 years of experience and he was unable to use his gun being properly trained? how can those of us with minimal training be expected to use a gun properly, shoot the proper kid if a kid has it, et cetera, etc. i'm a gun owner. it's a terrible idea.

here's nra spokesperson dana loesh. he said it's not guns. >> there is something wrong with our youth. something is happening in our culture. we always had firearms but we never had this many incidents. a number of things are taking place. what we are looking is a respect for life. what we are lacking is clear boundaries for our youth. we are lacking that solid family home. >> that's an argument to have more guns. that's an argument for less guns. that's no excuse. >> we are raising this generation lockdown. kids are learning run and hide and fate from the time they learn their abcs. they are afraid and their parents are afraid and now we inject more guns and create more reason for worry. they look for every reason

except the gun to address the gun violence. >> why did she bring in abortion rights? everything is not related. respect for life. >> because everything other than guns we should be taking a look at unless it means more guns. that's always the response. that was the response of governor desantis and there was a reason he didn't publicize. they understand how unpopular this is and what the threats are to our kids. >> let me go back to greg. a friend of mine teaches high school in tampa. i think you guys are the frontlines and greeting the new generation and you are there all day. what is your reaction to that nra spokesperson about the younger generation being troubled? what is going on with the kids you teach that is different from the past. i'm curious. >> one of the things with a lack of responsibility that they are

learning from the president. they are learning from our elected leaders. perhaps their parents and others are learning that you don't have to live up to your responsibilities. you can say or do anything and get away with it. i think that we need to teach them that they need to be responsible for themselves and they need to be responsible for each other. there is a decision that you make when you choose to use a gun and shoot it. i think this whole question of our elected leaders unfortunately congressman deutsch has been a positive leader and positive in this area. as far as gun safety. i think the representative, i wasn't going to mention her name because i have been attacked by her because i expressed my opinion. she is only about selling more guns. if they were truly interested in what teachers thought, there

would have been teachers on this. the commission that studied this safety thing. there were only police officials and sheriffs or a few other elected officials. there were no teachers. the teachers are opposed to this. the students are overwhelmingly opposed to it. who are they supposed to listen to? it will be interesting when our students continue to get elected. one of the things i teach in the classroom and i guarantee my students will be doing in 2020 is voting. they will be voting along this issue and they will be looking and educated about our leaders and what they have done or not done. what they have and haven't voted for. i can only say you need to be aware or beware of your votes or lack of votes. these kids are going to be voting in greater numbers and we will see greater changes in 2020.

congressman ted deutsch, thank you sir for coming up here. what's more important in 2020. policies that resonate with voters or getting trump out of office. it's not so much flavor of the month right now. it's who can take trump down. more after this. ho can take trun more after this. straight from the world's best plant scientists comes miracle-gro performance organics. it's miracle-gro's next big thing. ♪ ♪ organic plant food and soil that finally work. ♪ ♪ and work... and work. ♪ ♪ and yes we did say organic. for twice the bounty, guaranteed. miracle-gro performance organics. organics finally grow up. and up, and up.

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as he launched his presidential campaign, joe biden cast president trump as a throat this country and its character. while biden was taking the fight directly to the president, several democratic rivals had taken the former vp's queue and opened attacks on the president in the wake of the mueller report and the president's en e ensuing standoff with congress. here they go. >> there is no political ink

inconveinco inconvenience exception to the constitution. if any other human being in this country had done what is do you wanted in the mueller report, they would be arrested and put in jail. >> if you wondered whether there was obstruction of justice, when the president fired the principal investigator into what happened in 2016, james comey, the director of the fbi. when he tweets in broad daylight to jeff sessions, his attorney general, to end the russia investigation, there can be no doubt that is obstruction of justice. clear as day. >> the real crisis is breaking down all the barriers. across the board. in the time he came in office, he attempted to diminish every branch of government. it's all about taking down the guardrails of the abuse of power. >> one candidate made especially pointed attacks on trump in recent days. we will tell you who it is. coming up next. will tell you ws coming up next maria ramirez? hi. maria ramirez!

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divide, with the intent to so hate and division and with the intent to beat down. >> that was of course 2020 candidate senator kamala harris from california speaking in michigan. she dramatically stepped up attacks on trump in the last week. the times reports two recent events miss harris's insisting questions with attorney general barr at the judiciary committee and joe biden's spat have been clarifying moments for ms. harris and her aides, demonstrating the value of elevating her voice and seeing direct confrontation of the white house. her campaign is drawing on polling of early nominating states showing the primary voters are consumed with beating trump. republican strategist, susan i want to start with you.

a couple of rules are at play. one shoots up in politics. you never shoot down. if you get a target like the president, you go after him and not someone ranking 1% in the polls. take on trump. biden is doing it and it's working. >> that are clip you showed leading into the segment was perfect. she is spot on and has the right temperament. it does follow her questioning of barr. she may have found her lane for now. it's still very early. i think she put herself in a front-runner standing so she just has to keep up her method of introducing proposals and attacking the president when you see it, when it's necessary which unfortunately for us it's practically every day. i don't think she needs a reset. what we will really see her shine is during the debates on

this network later next month. >> when i started in politics i learned a trick. if you want to run for congress, start talking to the press and talk about local issues like a pipeline disaster. as if you are in office. talk like you are running against trump. don't act like a little kid at the little kid table and there is third of you. >> the rest of these people, they are trying to be my vp. >> she knows she has vp in pocket. >> exactly. we know that there is sexism in voters and different things, but kamala harris tapped into something we haven't seen. she is a woman who can actively attack men and people root for her. >> why isn't trump shooting back? >> because she's a black woman. he is terrified. he will go after oprah because she's a celebrity. maxine waters has scandals. if you look at michelle obama

and susan rice, the one crypt night he faced is black women. that's a constituency that will be his doom in 2020. >> do you think? >> definitely. >> the identity part of this. i am being told in the democratic fight will be dominant because they look for somebody perhaps like themselves in the same group who are african-american women or pick somebody they are damn sure they want to beat trump with. they will be strategic. maybe more so. why is there a fear that clearly he went after all the bs the other day. he went biden, bernie, beto, buttigeig. he skipped her this time. >> this time. that's a great time. he skipped her this time. if you remember, he was taken back with her announcement. he mentioned what a great -- how big the crowds were for her and how well she did. that was an indication that he

respects her. as we know with women, he respects like nancy pelosi even if he disagrees, he is not apt to go after the same way. it would be a disaster because all he does is know how to demean. it would come off horribly if he went after a woman at this point. >> we have to figure out him and tiger woods. that speech giving him the medal of freedom was the most astou astounding freedom. he knows every hole of that guy's career. the devotion to the guy. he looks up to that guy because he's trying to play golf. >> too bad he doesn't feel that way about our country. >> you make an interesting point. as i just mentioned, president trump mocked several potential 2020 rivals at a rally in panama city. let's watch.

>> we have buttigeig. they say buttigeig. edge edge. he will be great. representing us against president xi of china. that will be great. that will be great. i want to be in that room and watch that one. and beto. beto. boy, is he falling like a rock. what the hell happened to beto. we have real beauties. crazy bernie. he had a choice between sleepy joe and crazy bernie. and i'll take any of them. pick somebody, please and start this thing. >> panama city, florida. big crowd. what do you think? >> it's weak. it's the white guys. he thinks he is going to face a white guy. he's afraid of facing someone like harris and not that he doesn't think he can beat her, but he would take a lot of damage in attacking other people. let's be honest. this is a president who has no

discipline or attention span. the top four or five, he will say something offensive about berny and make a homophobic slur about buttigeig. >> do you think heard is? >> he is dancing next to it and he will be there at the first debate. he has no discipline and no couth. >> he is thinking ahead and he thinks he can win. the economy is good right now. he did say let's do it now. bring them on. he wants to vote now. he gets the vote in a year and a half. >> the thing about going after beto, earlier this week, we saw a lot of polls that had beto beating trump by double-digits. that irks the president. that's the way the president works. someone gets under his skin and he will keep going and going and going. i agree. i think he will continue to

demean his opponents as long as he can get away with it. that will be what we will see for the next 18 months. >> part is loving this list. he thinks he can beat everyone. he can have an easy time with joe biden and the states he won last time. he may not get them again. you are smiling. i like when you agree with me. if you were here, i would like to know if you agree. up next, aside from the vatican at the moral distress of sexual abuse in the catholic church could be facing a reckoning. you are watching "hardball." ing. you are watching "hardball."

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>> we waited and waited and waited. how long the catholic church waited for fighting back for the sexual exploitation of our children. the endless cover ups and always the questions of why. why is the church which embodies our faith their secrets and what leads men who preach from the left from the light of the altar the high dark secrets. is it fear of discovery? hours ago came a sign from the vatican that this relentless dispress coudis pre tress could end. all 415,000 catholic priests and nuns around the world are

required to report any sexual abuse or cover up to church authorities. they are required to report old case of sexual wrong-doing as well and any old cover ups. in order that's these fe that never happen again, the pope declared, a conversion of hearts is needed. attested by concrete and effective actions that involve everyone in the church. let's hope this all leads to change. that's "hardball." all in with chris hayes starts right now. >> tonight on all in -- >> the senate intelligence committee subpoenaed don, jr. >> the first real crack in trump's red wall. >> i was very surprised to see my son. >> senator richard blumenthal on the uproar. >> if he fails to answer he ought to be put in jail. >> 'the leader of