it's 4:00 in new york. it's donald trump's ukraine, are you listening moment? the president's personal attorney, rudy giuliani, who was the very first to defend the president when robert mueller's report revealed more than 140 contacts between the trump campaign and russia is heading to ukraine to dig up dirt on the democratic front runner and his family. it's a story you have to hear a few times to believe. on the very same morning donald trump bestowed the honor of a double insult nickname in a man who beats donald trump in head-to-head poles, sleepy creepy joe biden. we heard that rudy giuliani is heading to ukraine to meddle in two foreign investigations. he'll reportedly meet with the president elect to urge him to pursue inquiries that allies of the white house contend could yield new information about two

matters dealing with mr. trump. one is the involvement of former vice president joe biden's son in a gas company owned by a ukrainian oligarch. giuliani tells the time, quote, we're not meddling in an election, we're meddling in an investigation, which we have a right to do. there's nothing illegal about it. somebody could say it's improper and this isn't foreign policy, i'm asking them to do an investigation that they're doing already and that other people are telling them to stop. and i'm going to give them reasons why they shouldn't stop it because that information will be very, very helpful to my client and may turn out to be helpful to my government. so the next time someone asks you how bad things are here in our politics, you can tell them they're so bad that the current president publicly depends on foreign governments to prop him up. all this as trump bears down on biden. there's reason for trump to

worry about biden. polling averages have buy dep up 7 points in head-to-head matchups. last night on fox news rudy giuliani talked about going to ukraine. >> all i want the ukrainian government to do is investigate and don't let these people buffalo you. and that's what they're trying to do. it's a big story, it's a dramatic story, and i guarantee you, joe biden will not get to election day without this being investigated. not because i want to see him investigated, this is collateral to what i was doing. >> just let that sink in. all i want the ukraine to do is, dot dot dot. and that is where we are after two years of donald trump trying to convince the american people he didn't work with a foreign government to dig up dirt on his political rival. donald trump is now announcing ahead of time that his lawyer is going to work with a foreign government to dig up dirt on a

political rival. and that is where we start today with some of our paifrt reporters and friends. with us on set, donny deutsch host of saturday night politics on msnbc. who do you have tomorrow? >> one stunning example of greatness, nicole wallace. if you like nicole wallace on deadline, you'll love her on saturday night politics. she's there because she's a good friend and helping me get my show off the ground. >> former republican congressman from florida, david jolly. and ashley parker from "the washington post." former u.s. attorney, joyce vance and frank figliuzzi former director at the fbi. frank we sat here before the show saying how the bleep is this happening. so i'm going to let you try to

answer it, how the bleep is this happening? >> that's a great question. we have to ask ourselves is this the same rudy giuliani that cried foul when the u.s. accepted information from former british officer christopher steele. is it the same rudy giuliani who bemoaned the fact that george papadopoulos was talking to an australian diplomat and the australians shared it with us? now it's okay to do this. lots of questions. emoluments clause, will he receive a thing of value from a foreign government? are the ukrainians going to do something they would not have already done and therefore provide assistance from a former power to a presidential reelection campaign? who's paying for rudy's trip over there? is it coming out of campaign funds for the president? lots of questions here? all of which i think is going to take us down a rabbit hole we don't want to go to as a nation.

which is, that it's okay for us to rely, seek the help of foreign governments, even adversaries when we get a president elected. >> don't we have rudy giuliani's answer to the question frank poses. >> i'm going to give them reasons they shouldn't stop it because that information would be very, very helpful to my client. rudy giuliani said in advance of the trip, i guess this is a legal strategy you have to pay extra for. confess your crime on fox news and then it won't be found a crime when a special counsel is formed to investigate it. >> apparently this administration continues its strategy it's not a crime if you do it in front of the public's eye. whether it's criminal conduct or not, i think the devil is in the details as frank points out. and this is in progress, it bears very careful watching. but just to take a step back and

think about how absurd and bizarre it is that we have an american president, through his personal emissary, going to a foreign country to ask for a criminal investigation. if there was a reason to investigate, i feel confident the fbi and american law enforcement would be more than up to it. >> david jolly, after william barr's performance last week, why would he think he'd meet any resistance at the u.s. justice department? >> the fascinating thing, to joyce's point, is donald trump and his attorney, rudy giuliani, asking the ukrainian to do something that william barr wouldn't even do. which is to investigate corruption by joe biden. our own department of justice if there was reason to investigate it would but there is not. so they're relying on a foreign government. we frame this as rudy giuliani, he is a direct agent of donald trump. >> correct. >> this is donald trump and the trump campaign asking for foreign assistance again to investigate a former u.s. vice president that even our --

>> ashley parker, top democrats reacting today. here's judiciary chairman nadler and chairman schiff. >> i haven't read the details, but my reaction is, we've come to a very sorry state when it's considered okay for an american politician, never mind an attorney for the president, to go and seek foreign intervention in american politics. >> it's just appalling, and his defense that he's not seeking a foreign government's help in the election just an investigation, yes, it's an investigation designed to affect one of the candidates they fear the most, joe biden. i think it's reprehensible. >> ashley parker, there's an almost an exhaustion that comes across in those two responses that we just got through a two-yearlong investigation into conduct that is at least recognizable in this, this willingness, this openness to

aid political aid in an american domestic political campaign context. and now you have the president's lawyer, got away with it once, save yourself the step of investigating us, i'll tell you about it ahead of time. where are we? >> one of the president's sort of chief attributes, to be honest, is his shamelessness and his audacity and his willingness for him and the people around him to do stuff that a lot of reasonable people, to be seen as norms and societal rules, absolutely would not do. you've seen it all along. you've seen the president come out in the campaign and say russia, if you're listening, release the emails. you've seen the president when he came under scrutiny for the trump tower meeting, saying wouldn't you have wanted to get opposition research on your opponent? that's just normal. so this is a president who has crossed a number of red lines repeatedly, paid little

political price, faced little blow back from his own party in congress. so it's not surprising that his lawyer would go ahead and sort of continue that trend of being shameless and doing this stuff sort of out in the open and in public view. >> donny i concur with everything ashley said about donald trump's comfort with shameless conduct. what i don't understand is the reason he could never acknowledge russia's ma lev lance is because it would undermine his victory. now he's publically saying i can't beat biden on my own. i can't do it. i need a foreign government to help me beat biden. if the whole foreign policy is in his insecurity, fear that he couldn't have won without russia's interventions, how is he okay with rudy giuliani going over there saying i can't beat biden without help from the

ukraine. >> your reaction to jerry nadler was exactly mine and schiff. that's the scary part. that's where trump is winning. when you start -- you have jerry nadler, and he's sighing. it is such overload, the despicable conduct and characters, we have a rogue presidency, there needs to be rage, fear, can't be just the dems. yes, you need nancy pelosi with a calm hand. but there needs to be rage. we have a president sending over his hitman to basically say i'm going to get dirt -- this investigation on biden is proven false already. the timing is off by a year. what he's talking about, biden getting involved with an oligarch, his son, they're a year apart. there is no there there.

there is no depth these people will go to. and i've said it many times on this show. trump is doing what the worst players and actors in the history of man kind has done. he's taken every single step. and how far and how bad does that go? every other country they say it can't happen here. it's starting to happen here. between barr and this latest instance, it's a new level of dictator play book. we're getting there folks and at the end of the day there's going to be one thing that changes it, people voting. that's it. we're moving to a final dance in november of 2020 and the american people better get it because four years of a guy, take wherever your mind can take you in a bad place and we can go there. >> frank figliuzzi with all the fog and lies that come from the president and rudy giuliani sometimes the truth tellers get drowned out. but one of them spoke out today

former fbi general counsel jim baker who talked about enough being enough with the lies and the smears and origins around the original russia investigation. here's jim baker earlier today. >> honestly, there was a point in time relatively recently where i just became sick of all the bs that is said about the origins of the investigation. i just got fed up with it. this incident, the george papadopoulos information is what triggered us going down this path. it's against the backdrop of a dump of emails over the summer that were attributed by various entities to the russians in one way or another, and then -- and other things going on that summer and this thing lands in the middle of that. that's what then focuses us and triggers this course of investigation. >> frank it seems like we can never share enough original source information about the truth of the russia investigation. your thoughts about jim baker

speaking out and what he had to say? >> i applaud him speaking out. again, the fbi is particularly in counterintelligence, is a culture of secrecy but this time in history calls for us to set the record straight and i think that's what baker is trying to do. in that regard, our attorney general is doing the opposite. he's put out this informationno looking into the predication of the russia investigation. well, get it out. the more he takes time the more the public will think there's something wrong with it. i predict we'll never come to an tend because the ag doesn't want to see it resolved. >> i want to bring this back to the man who spent 22 months looking back to the original conduct by george papadopoulos. robert mueller found after 22

months his investigation established multiple links between campaign officials and individuals tied to the russian government. those included russian offers of assistance to the campaign, in some instances the campaign was receptive to the offer. most parents recognize patterns. we learn pattern recognition if our kid lies about brushing their teeth we're not surprised they have cavities at at the dentist. but if this administration lies about their dependency on foreign governments, do you fear that's where we are with ukraine. >> sometimes it takes cavities time to show up. you may not see it at the first visit but six months or a year down the line they show up. and robert mueller was clear in his report making sure about collusion, because it lacked

definition. i don't think we can say that enough, because the president continues to say no collusion. and that's not what mueller found. he did find, as you say, a pattern of this repeated outreach from russia and there was maybe some parallel play by the trump campaign but no evidence of an agreement. so with that backdrop we should carefully scrutinize what's going on in ukraine and be very careful keeping in mind prosecutors who decide there's not enough evidence to prosecute today may view that decision differently six months down the road when new evidence comes to light. >> ashley, i want you to try to wrap this up for us. when you talk about a white house that spends as much time and energy wanting to investigate political enemies as this one does you're so far beyond the norms that norm busting doesn't do justice to sort of wrapping that conduct in the right frame. this is a white house that

spends precious time thinking about or talking about spreading democra democracy. precious time sort of being in touch with any sort of granular details of a process, but a lot of time and energy punishing their enemies, shuttering the windows of the white house, grinding the axes of people that made them mad. what's your take on the stay of play as this week wraps up. >> this is a president who has in a number of ways chipped away at democratic institutions to the point stuff happens every day that would end the political career of any other politician. that was what you got at with that exhaustion. we're seeing that level of exhaustion just with the sort of clashes between the white house and what's going on in congress with not turning over any documents, making them fight for anything with subpoenas, in addition to what you mentioned i wanted to add one more thing. this is a white house that in many ways has not learned its

lessons or has frankly learned the wrong lessons. they should be grateful to be out from under the mueller cloud, and it seems to on the one hand miss that opponent, still attacking mueller, still going after them, and he's allowing either a sitly or implic implicitty, rudy giuliani to go on and behave in a way that could cause another scandal and cloud that would embroil his presidency. >> ashley parker you're about to celebrate your first mother's day, we hope it's a great one. >> thank you. >> thanks for spending time with us. after the break, a top democrat threatens to use a new tool, but will it work? also ahead with the political mayhem at home are enough of us paying attention to a world on fire? we focus on the world's hot spots. and as 2020 democrats focus

on trump, fresh polling show that democrats are hungry for a confrontation with this president. all those stories coming up. president. all those stories coming up. woman: ahh! need a change of scenery? kayak searches hundreds of travel sites and lets you see how your baggage will affect the cost of your flight, so you can be confident

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i think it's far more practical to consider levying individual fines on the person, not on the office, until they comply. the courts use that practice. i think it's quite successful. >> you're talking about a big number? >> yes. yes. you could fine someone $25,000 a day until they comply and that will probably get their attention. >> can you do that? >> we can do that. but if there is going to be this

across the board stone walling we have to consider extraordinary remedies. >> wow, house committee chairman adam schiff talking about the next potential step for democrats, fighting a white house more committed to stonewalling than conspiracy. and jerry nadler said a few hours ago that talks to have mueller testify before the committee are ongoing. >> it won't be next week but we're negotiating with him. we're talking with him and the justice department. >> are you committed to having -- are you sure that mueller will come before your committee? >> i'm not going to comment on that at this point. let me change that, he will come at some point. if necessary we'll subpoena him and he'll come. >> is there any benefit on waiting until he's a private citizen and not an employee of the doj? >> is there a benefit, no. he may prefer to do that because he's then more free from the instructions of the department of justice. >> joining us now msnbc

political analyst rick stangle. your thoughts on this extraordinary moment. this extraordinary standoff between the white house and congress about so many consequential things. >> yes. the fact is the executive branch is basically not entertaining any of the others and compliances that are necessary to the legislative branch. it's kind of unheard of. which is why you have the two chairmen saying we have to go to extraordinary remedies. they existed a long time ago, the house had the subpoena power and that existed in the '30s and '40s and it wayined. they should bring it back. i don't think there's a constitutional crisis. there's a constitutional crisis if the executive branch doesn't comply and there's no way around that. >> what the fines? >> the fines, everything.

>> you think congress nieeds to accelerate. >> yes. there's been a decline in congress' power the last 100 years. and the problem is the uni tear power of the executive, and that's why congress needs to beef up and use the authority it has to compete against the executive branch. >> it's a slippery slope. congress is driven by one party. now you're giving the party an ability to imprison, that's dangerous. nobody wants to see the republicans -- >> it's an institution not a party. >> it's a politically driven institution at all times. >> let's get the person -- >> i'm an institutionalist and i think after the sdny matter, nancy pelosi should have opened up with impeachment because the president was named in a criminal conviction with michael cohen. >> the president today is an

unindicted co-conspirator. >> this is how it's different than john edwards. john edwards was found not guilty. michael cohen pled guilty and the president is named in that plea. are we going to just allow him commit small crimes. >> that's a big one. >> that's a big one. i put it out in 14 tweets last night. you can link the president in what's already in the mueller report -- >> so why haven't they? >> honestly, because nancy pelosi was speaker once before and she presided over the greatest loss of house seats since the world war, 63 seats. i think she's reflecting on that. she knows it may be politically unpopl unpoplar, so she's waiting for it to become more popular. >> it's moving in that direction. >> it shouldn't matter.

if it's 10% -- >> can we have the conversation? i think the fact that impeachment is unpopular is all the cover the democrats need to do the right thing. >> because you're also defending the house of representatives by holding the president accountable. you're not just requiring better fitness of the occupant of the white house. you're saying as a congress the constitution gives us this authority. we are obligated to use. but if you're an institutionalist who sees the institution of the house not the political party in charge, you don't have an option. i think they should set a deadline, on july 1, the house judiciary committee is taking a vote for impeachment or not, and if you want to join us in that conversation and want to testify before then, we'd love to hear from you. >> let me add our two law enforcement voices to the conversation. i think if you head down this road -- i think the political frame around impeachment, which is a political process and i understand why there's a

political frame around it. i think it's a toxic conversation absent considerations about the rule of law and what that means in this country. frank you and i started this conversation at the beginning of the week. if you believe as robert mueller does that after 22 months you cannot say that donald trump did not commit crimes, how do you not take that document and pursue an investigation into those crimes that robert mueller found in details in his report? the justice department had entertained the possibility that after the mueller report became public, the underlying evidence and the witnesses that it would be turned over to a congressional process, frank. >> so, look, let me add yet another reason for impeachment. not only because we clearly have at least ten incidents described in the report of obstruction, but now we have a president who's essentially walking away from the founding principle of our government, which is that we

have three equal branchs of government and that the american people hold the executive accountable through their elected legislative branch and he's rejected that by stonewalling every attempt of oversight. that enouis enough to bring impeachment. so we're under going a stress test of whether or not we're going to stick with three equal branchs of government. what we're going to find out is whether or not the legislative branch has any teeth to enforce their so-called equality. if that fails, i'm not ready to say we're in the constitutional crisis as chairman nadler is saying, but if the remedies fail and the enforcementment fails we'll be at a point where there is a crisis. >> joyce, let me just ask you to do the same thing. leave the politics to us hacks at the tail -- just myself. i'll call myself a hack.

layout from your perspective, the case for examining both the crimes alleged to have been committed by this president by the southern district of new york and the illegal hush money screa scheme, part of the reason that michael cohen now sits in a prison and the crimes that robert mueller wrote in english language, he could not exonerate donald trump from in the mueller report. >> as you point out i'm not a politician. i'm just a little country prosecutor. and one of the things i know from trying cases to juries for more than 25 years is that as a prosecutor you have to make a hard-nosed call about whether your evidence is sufficient to convict with a jury and the jury pool that you will be drawing from. so part of your calculation is to continue investigating until you have sufficient evidence. impeachment is sort of a parallel process, right? where you're looking at the evidence you have available and thinking about whether or not it's enough.

and nancy pelosi will look like a rocket scientist if in one or two months that 40 to 45% jump in americans who believe in impeachment is suddenly 45 to 50 or 55. and as you point out, she has really solid building blocks. the process that democrats should be engaging now is this evidence gathering proposition. they should be looking not only at what's in the mueller report, but what's in those 12 investigations that have been sent to other u.s. attorneys' offices compiling evidence about high crimes and misdemeanors. >> donny? >> i'm going to talk as a ceo. as a ceo, this is all noise. i have a corporation, this country, in crisis. i only fix it if i get trump out of office. everything else is discussion. that is it. the world starts to collapse and i work back from that. and until i get to the point that the evidence is so overwhelming that i'm going to

bring impeachment process and even if the republicans shut it down, which they will, that the american public can clearly say no. donald trump -- they're not just going after him, he's not a victim. until that point i don't hit my end objective of getting to trump. so i'm out of the political game, i'm out of the theoretical game i'm in the one simple strategic objective, get this guy out. until i can get an impeachment that even though it won't end in him being thrown out of office, the american public sitting as jury will go no. >> the only thing i will add to what joyce said and she knows 10,000 times more than i do. accumulating evidence for a criminal trial is one thing. you know i have the evidence for murder one. but remember, impeachment is a political trial. high crimes and misdemeanors, there's no definition of that. no judge can say what it means. so what's the evidence to get to the bar of high crimes and

misdemeanors. sufficient evidence is the congress taking that vote and saying yes, we vote to peaimpea >> bob mueller uses the term substantial evidence repeatedly. i get your approach. if you were ceo and the by jlaw required a specific performance, you couldn't ignore that. the constitution requires impeachment, not everyone agrees with that. >> ceos, members of congress, mommies don't let infractions go if you want your kid to get in college. you deal with the problem in your face and it seems to be am mosaic in front of us. after the break, with the president trapped on twitter and his white house not sharing

anything with congress, it's no wonder it feels like the world is on fire. we'll talk about the hot spots after the break. fire we'll talk about the hot spots after the break. xious sometimes. but if you could see inside my mind; you'll find i go to my happy place. see if we let tensions run the show up here, then our bodies won't perform at their best out here. wait, aren't we going to the sound check? priorities. so i'm partnering with cigna, to remind you that how you're doing emotionally affects you physically. go for your annual check-up and be open with your doctor about anything you're feeling. physically, and emotionally. body and mind cigna. together all the way.

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in for its long war with congress, there's several foreign policy crisis in the making. donald trump renewed his trade war with china this morning tweeting about tariffs, the two countries ended talks today with no deal. u.s. bomber jets arrived in the middle east to counter threats from iran. and trump's north korean pen pal is showing know love. the country launched its second short range missile in a week yesterday and kim jong-un called for full combat posture. according to new reporting in "the washington post," trump and kim's relationship was so friendly before this it caused rifts between them and their aides. in april, kim demoted his point

man for the nuclear talks, and former spy chief who exasperated u.s. negotiators. and according to one expert quoted in the post story, quote, what's really striking is how in both systems the bureaucracies aren't always moving in the same direction the leaders are signaling. joining the conversation, rev al sharpton, president of the national action network. your thoughts on the chaos that the president is presiding over? >> when you look at the fact that his move on china, for example, playing this trade war, putting us in a position where tariffs will go up, it is going to hurt his voter. you're talking about farmers that are now going to lose, china saying we'll buy our soybeans from brazil. look at his romance with kim

blowing up in his face. you're talking about a man that we got a clearer picture this week. a man after losing over a billion dollars writes a book "the art of the deal" you're talking about someone who didn't know what they're doing. he's going to advice people when he's going into bankruptcy. no wonder we see these fire spots around the world. and he's the one starting the fires. as he did in his own personal busine business. if he didn't have daddy, he'd be totally out of business and there's no daddy to come protect him this time. >> rick, if you were picking covers for time magazine, what would go on the cover this week? the trade war with china, the two missile tests in north korea or the middle east? which would you pick. >> i think i'd do the

constitutional crisis. because of social media we feel we're living in an era of constant crisis. i want to go back to the ukraine issue. >> please. >> 30,000 foot view here. this is also a potential area of collusion between trump and putin. why? putin annexed crimea in 2014 he had a soft invasion of ukraine in 2015. the only country that was backing ukraine from basically being concurred by russia was the u.s. and nato. now you have the president of the united states basically saying, let's make a deal about this. if you're ukraine, you're caught between these two corrupt administrations. that's a really dangerous thing for europe. >> give us one more bead on that. because i don't think people maybe -- our viewers are very smart they educate me on a lot of these topics but put in context what a shift that is in u.s. foreign policy. >> remember part of the reason we're so worried about the connection between trump and putin is that we created these

heavy sanctions against russia in 2014 and 2015. we came to the rescue of ukraine with billions of dollars in money supported the administration. it was basically a kind of cold war around ukraine, which is a country the size of france europe. now basically the ukraine has looked to the u.s. for backing. now you have a representative of the president of the united states saying give us stuff that will help us in the 2020 campaign or maybe we won't help you against russia anymore, that's scary. >> a microcosm of why we never get to the world on fire. i was handed breaking news to subpoenas being handed to the irs and treasury secret. richard neil released the following statement after issuing subpoenas to steve mnuchin. last month the ways and means committee began an investigation

into the irs, to the extent it audits and enforces the tax laws against a sitting president. as part of that inquiry on april 3rd i requested six years of the president's personal and business tax returns pursuant to my authority, i believe then as i do now that reviewing the requested documents is necessary. we can give our viewers who have been following this, but obviously they weren't turned over and now they've been subpoenaed. i believe the treasury secretary is under subpoena, mueller report's report is under subpoena, don mcghan and his notes are under subpoena. where are we? >> what chairman neil is doing is going after the argument there's no legitimate purpose. he's not saying we need to see the tax returns to know if he's levered by foreign interest. he says the congress should know

how irs does audits with presidents. i think the law generally is on the side of the congress of this, but it could be litigated for years. chairman kneneil striking out w that position. but every time you respond to the white house you play in their field. impeach the treasury secretary because it's a matter of such great consequence. do it and watch the president's head explode. >> to put into context the importance of the tax returns. there's a question on the table, a question the fbi viewed as open, there was an effort to sort of better understand the financial ties, the mueller report turned up a lot of lies around the president and his family's negotiations with russia over trump tower. there's a question about whether the president is at risk of being compromised by his

financial entanglements. >> you look at the levers foreign governments may have, go back to the moscow tower conversation, but go to domestic matters like we saw in the stormy daniels matter. what different entities and shell companies has the president set up and moved money in between. this is what the state of new york is doing saying you can see the state returns, it's powerful, as well as accessing states across the country saying if you don't release your taxes you're not on the ballot. >> we were here at 4:34 trying to spend 15 minutes talking about the world on fire, in a block to show our work a little. but we collapsed, crises under a normal president could make up a whole hour. the mounting tensions, posture with iran, crkorea, the trade w with china. each of them worthy of an hour. we're handed a subpoena for

steve mnuchin. >> i want to go back to what the congressman was saying. this all adds up impeachment, non-impeachment and as the subpoena continue -- strategically for the democrats when is the tipping point that suburban moms, independents start to really can comprehend it's not the democrats trying to get their guy. it's the democrats really standing for the rule of law. i don't know what that stew is. i don't know the combination. so it's restraint. when i say no impeachment, right now impeaching i believe plays into trump's hand. i do believe you keep the investigations going, you keep it going, and at some point it adds up to -- not the 36% but the other 7 or 8 or 9 or 10% he needs to get elected saying this is not who we are. i don't know what that is. >> we shouldn't rush past rick's

point. this is what mom needs to understand, you're talking about voters, whether we go to impeachment or not, you're talking about people that said that they had nothing to do with foreign involvement in a campaign, but i'm going to send my lawyer to ukraine to find out something on joe biden's son. they're doing this in plain sight. in real time. we're going to a foreign country to see if they will help us get dirt on who may be our potential candidate and we're acting like there's something normal about this? >> we're not. let me ask you, rudy giuliani announced that endeavor on fox news and did an interview with the "new york times" about that trip. it would seem what they got out of the mueller report was that committing crimes and misdeeds in full view is a good defense strategy. >> that's what he's doing because he's saying this in full view, i'm going to go dig up something if i can on biden's son, and americans supposed to

believe this now, when you look at what the relationship has been between the u.s. and ukraine. and by the way, i'm also going to see if if we can clear up stuff with manafort and all this. so we're openly dealing with a foreign government with political intentions and we're not expressing that. i hope the candidates start raising this going to his point because they need to say look at what they're doing in plain sight and we're running around investigating whether they're going to a foreign country? they're doing it now. >> skip the special counsel next time, right? all right. after the break, democratic front runner joe biden woke up with a giant lead in new hampshire. we'll show you the latest polling on the 2020 democrats. stay with us. g on the 2020 demo. stay with us too many people in pain settle

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there is still nine months left to go before the democrats

decide on their presidential nominee. but already donald trump is making his pick on twitter writing this, quote, looks to me like it's going to be sleepy creepy joe over crazy bernie.be. everyone else is fading fast. that prediction is supported by new polling out of new hampshire, showing joe biden would double the support of second-place bernie sanders. the table's back. you've got a theory. >> i think that we are in a position where you've got to recognize we're in a street fight, and i think the problem is when you have people go in the ring and they think they're in a professional boxing match, and they're waiting on the three-minute bell to ring and the referee, there is no referee. this guy has a razor and a broke bottle. you're going to have to fight him as a street fighter. he knows no regulations. there's no three minutes that's going to tell you to go back to your corner and clear your head. you've got to fight him in the only way he knows how to fight, and that's a street fight. >> there's some data that actually backs you up.

in the monmouth poll on beating trump, the overwhelming majority, 68% of likely democratic voters prefer to have a nominee who would be a strong candidate against trump even if they disagree with that candidate on most issues. if they were forced to choose, just 25% said they would favor a democratic candidate who they're aligned with on the issues even if that person would have a hard time beating trump. that's unbelievable. >> this is an unbelievable moment in history. we haven't seen a president like this, and the american people are frustrated because we can't see congressional oversight. not at the fault of the house but they've never wrestled with a president that has had such a posture towards the legislative branch. i think the takeaway from joe biden's numbers in the first few weeks and how deep and strong those are. those numbers are real. >> it's all right brain. it's visceral. when he came out two years ago and said i'd like to take trump out back, he's going to have the same teflon that trump had with his voters. they wanted trump so bad, i think people wanted to take out

trump so bad that whether it's anita hill, bank regulations, whatever sins of the past, even if he flubbed some things, they're going to keep propping him up. >> i'd say one of the dangers, though, i'm going to play press critic for a second. of course i've spent my life covering campaigns. i think there's a danger if the press overcovers the democratic campaign. it's already overcovering it, right? let the democrat voters see the candidates, process their message, and make a decision. us covering it does alter what is really happening out there in the politics and, you know, i have to say -- and i know it's a cliche and ronald reagan said. let the american public decide. >> i'll take your note. here's kirsten gillibrand on this topic. >> is joe biden's 20-point lead about his name recognition right now? >> yes. >> it's not -- and how do you overcome that? >> through building up my own name recognition, which means just coming to new hampshire over and over, talking to voters about the issues they care

about, working hard, not giving up, and just earning their support over time. >> so we will cover every democratic that goes to their front lawn and gets their paper. >> but don't ask process questions. you're asking a candidate about somebody else's poll numbers? >> i wasn't standing there. i'm not going to attack the reporters on the trail. those can be thankless jobs and i'm glad they're there. they're our eyes and ears. but let me say this about what it seems voters are saying. i don't care about polls that show people bunched, and you're at nine and another person is at seven, that means another person didn't pick up because they were on the phone with pizza delivery. but these polls, i do not think it is correct to ignore them when joe biden announced his candidacy by taking a two by four to the most disgusting moment of trump's presidency, and that was seeing good people on both sides of the kkk rally. no one else has done that yet. kamala harris has sharpened her message to include that. but people are hungry for

someone to stand up and say, this is frickin' crazy, and biden is doing that. >> i applaud that he did that. i applaud that you applaud that he did it. >> you don't need you to applaud. >> but then the voters will decide and say, you know what? i don't care what he thinks about health care, or i don't care what he thinks about tariffs. i want somebody who is going to take a two by four to donald trump. that's all i care about. and then that's why i'm going to vote for -- >> or just to racism. i think there's a feeling that our president gives safe haven to racists and that's where we are. >> when people stop you on the street and they go, we have to do something, there is such a pent up fear and rage that if you don't hit that button, it's not going to do it. one other thing about trump, we're in the seventh season of celebrity apprentice. the sleepy joe stuff doesn't work anymore. his bag of tricks that worked in season one of the apprentice, i don't think they're going to work in season seven. >> do you agree? >> yes, except this whole thing with the ukraine and giuliani is

going to work with the audience it needs to work with. if you're a fox news viewer right now, you believe joe biden tried to interfere to earn some money for his son and you're going to believe that until you're chanting "lock him up" at the convention in a year. >> but his crowd, yes, they'll buy it. but if you're not talking to the other americans, the democratic base and independents that look at what they're doing, this is blatantly what we said we did not want is foreign involvement. then you're expanding your crowd. don't forget he lost by 2.8 million votes. you just need to move those electoral states. and i think what we're saying is we're not saying that we want candidates that would go against him that don't have the right positions on major things that we're concerned about. but we also know that they're going to fight because people want to know if this is the nominee, are they going to take it to trump and have the ability to beat him with the right issues? you can have all the right

issues. if you're the wrong one in the ring, you're going to get beaten. this is a man that was walking around the debate stage just standing over hillary clinton. they want a candidate that has the right positions but that will say, wait a minute. back up and go to your corner. what do you think this is? and unless you have a stand-up candidate, you could have all the right policies, but they will not feel that you can beat donald trump and match him toe to toe. >> amen. >> i think you all know. you've run for office. i've worked on a lot of campaigns. it's never something you figure out in a lab. it's emotional. people vote on emotion. and the truth is people are anxious. people are scared, and people are angry. and for whatever reason, maybe it's because joe biden has the biggest megaphone. he's hitting the right emotional buttons at this point. >> in all of the social science of the last 20 years says that people vote for how the person makes them feel. >> right. >> and people voted for trump because they were afraid, and

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i could talk to these frernds forever, but we're out of time. my thanks to donny, al, rick, and david jolly. thank you all for watching. it's our two year anniversary. we wouldn't be here without you. that does it for our. i'm nicolle wallace. "mtp daily" starts right now with my friend alley jackson. >> happy two years, nicolle. congratulations to you. >> thank you. today, if it's friday, democrats are issuing another subpoena. ♪ good evening. i'm hallie jackson in washington in for chuck todd. welcome to "mtp daily." within just the last couple of minutes, democrats announced