that does it for me. i will be back at 8:00 eastern time tomorrow. a.m. joy with joy reid starts right now. i'm not going to go because i think i am walking into a group of people that are enemies of the president. in some cases, enemies of the united states. in order to remove any political suggestion. >> okay. >> i will step back and i will just watch it unfold. >> okay. good morning, welcome to a.m. joy. donald trump's tv attorney, rudy giuliani said never mind then telling fox news on friday he canceled his trip to ukraine. according to a "new york times" report on friday giuliani had hoped to mine the incoming government for information that could potentially undermine the successful prosecution of paul manafort who you will recall illegally lobbied for foreign clients do you go the former pro-russian government in you rain. giuliani also reportedly hoped to dig up dirt in ukraine on joe

biden and his son hunter that might damage ump from's potential 2020 rival who has apparently taken up rental space inside donald trump's head. giuliani's plan to go to ukraine was corruption in plain sight. before he backed out on tv giuliani told the times quote we are not meddling in an election we are meddling in an investigation which we have a right to do. all right. despite cancelling the trip the president sent a message to ukraine that collusion is not something they will be hiding. and on sunday he said it would be appropriate for him to launch an investigation into joe biden and his son. joining me chris advance, and malcolm nance, author the plot to destroy democracy and an

msnbc legal analyst glen krishner. thank you all of you. i want to start at the table. the impetus for deciding that collusion is not going to be hidden anymore, they are going to do it openly now. the predecessor is william barr, consignaturely year to the president and u.s. attorney general who said the following in an exchange on may 1st testifying before congress. senator chris coops is questioning him. take a listen. >> what if a foreign adversary let's say north korea offers a presidential candidate dirt on a competitor in 2020? do you agree with me the campaign should immediately contact the fbi? >> if a foreign intelligence -- >> foreign intelligence service. >> a representative of a foreign government. >> he why. >> says we have dirt on your opponent. >> yes. >> should they say, we love it let's meet. >> yes, if it is a foreign

intelligence service, yes. >> parnell there wasn't a clarity for giuliani, who is a former u.s. attorney to understand he shouldn't collude. >> it is a law change for the trump administration. if they are not going to enforce the law i understand why he is doing it. if you are not going to enforce open container laws i am going to have a beer on my stoop. the party has to understand that everything that trump did to steal the 2016 election he is going to do it again. because it worked the first time. he is going to try to get information from russia. russia -- we might as well have a democratic primary debate on kgb 1. apparently their influence is that important. it is beyond that. our elections are kploe myselfed and we are not doing anything to

stop it. swalwell has a bill to make exactly what krins coops is talking about explicitly illegal. where is that bill? >> it probably wouldn't pass anyway. it is like that sign put up in the bathroom saying you have to watch your hands. it is shocking. let me go the malcolm. literally, giuliani's quote is, i am not going to go because i think i am walking into a group of people who are enemies of the president and in some cases enemies of the united states. so that essentially says that he was going to go and talk to people who even he thinks may be enemies of the united states. and that's fine in his view. >> yeah. well, you know, i fear for this nation. we are in very, very serious trouble. when now we have a president and his ternl people have decided that laws that are out there

like campaign finance laws, accepting information, you know, reporting on espionage -- can i point something out about the barr statement? >> sure. >> he was explicit in saying -- his answer was related to foreign intelligence agencies, not foreign governments. and this is what russia did. they partially relied on the foreign intelligence agencies but they used intelligence subcontractors, oligarchs and people of influence to really carry out that campaign. what giuliani is saying by cancelling his meeting is that he personally is not going to go out and do this. he understand that is the mueller report defined conspiracy in a very specific way and he is not going to meet that standard. he will have other people go out that we will not hear about for years, go out and find that information and carry out this new apparently, you know, as secretary of dirty tricks for donald trump, and he will steal or impact this election in some way that will fundamentally

break our electoral process. >> you know, let me play what jerry nadler, the chairman of the house ju dish year committee had to say. >> we have come to a sorry state when it is considered okay that an american politician never mind an attorney for the president to go and seek intervention in american politics. >> is the challenge here one of the many many things we need to update in our daus is making explicit the thing of value that we include in our campaign not only needs to have monetary is value that things of dirt is illegal to trade in an american election? >> i think that's right. one of the things we will see coming out of this administration same process that happened after watergate is tightening up the laws making more explicit what criminal

conduct looks like. the mueller report did talk about things of value and there is sort of a hyper technical legal argument about an incomplete crime and how you put valuation to.that. this is something that congress can redo when they come to the law. but to the primary point, joy, i think the reason rudy canceled his trip here is exactly the reason malcolm puts forth, which is that his conduct was tantamount to a conspiracy and probably would have been an outright violation of the law. he said he was going to ukraine to get them to engage in an investigation that would benefit donald trump. he was going over to make the offer for ukraine to enter into a conspiracy with him. that would not have been difficult for prosecutors to prove even with that valuation issue. >> great point. glen kirschner i want to get you in on that. a lot of people forget rudy giuliani was a u.s. attorney. he now seems to be freelancing as a consignaturely year for

trump. after 9/11 he formed a firm that has a lot of foreign clients. he sounds a little bit like paul manafort to be blunt in the makeup of what he did for a living. how close would he have been skating? do you agree with joyce that he would have been outright violating the law going around the country and looking for dirt on donald trump's 2020 opponents? >> how close would he have been skating? he would have fallen through the thin ice. and how in the world -- it is not like rudy giuliani didn't know hmm there might be some issue with me colluding with a foreign power to get dirt on a political adversary. i think we have been discussing that for a minute now. elie i think is dead right here, joy, because by the president refusing to condemn this, he is encouraging it. he is all but saying russia, if you are listening, 2020 is coming up. we are going to need your help again. you know, if we don't start

wrestling with some of these reforms you know we are going to be in a very sorry place as a republic. >> yeah, i think the sad thing about it is elie, the democrats can pass all the reforms they want. none of it is passing in the senate. it is unlikely mitch mcconnell would even allow a bill that would protect our elections from foreign intervention to come to fruition because in part he is being reelected with president trump. they were things that help mcconnell and his party, too. >> one of the problems is that the republican party seems to be bought and paid for by these interest groups and foreign nationals apparently. i think it is still important to pass these bills. mcconnell has to run again. if i am the democrat running against mcconnell i want it on the record that mcconnell will not stand up to defend the american election. i don't know a lot of people in kentucky but those who i do know care about the basic legal

factors. being opposed to upholding the integrity of elections is important. >> just to get him on the record. and per joe biden he is the guy who refused to cooperate with the obama obama administration in issuing a bipartisan joint warning to the american people. >> quickly. it is important, as we are talking about russia's attempts to influence 2020, to me it is so important that all the 2020 democratic primary candidates condemn this behavior and and do not accept any support that might be coming their way from russia. et cetera important that all 22 of them get on the same phage and jointly done condemn russian influence. >> lets take a quick turn. there is a seeming openness by this administration to help from foreign powers because trump needs to be get reelected to be blunt to stay out of prosecution. the only way he can ensure he is not prosecuted for anything is

to stay president. we get that. on the other site, lindsey graham and william barr are assuming a policy of aggressive investigation. you now have donald trump threatening john kerry, also a private citizen. let's listen to that. >> what i would like to see with iran, i would like to see them call me. john krerry sfes to them a lot. john kerry tells them not to call. that's a violation of the logan act. and frankly he should be prosecuted on that. >> so that in and of itself sounds like seiko. okay? that sounds like what you hear in countries that we normally send election monitors to. that's one thing. the other thing is that republicans didn't used to mind calling iran. remember the letter that was sent in march of 2015 where they tried to undermine president obama's iran policy, the iran deal that was the one thing keeping iran from going forward with a nuclear program?

what do you make of this threat to potentially prosecute private sentence donald trump doesn't like but to prosecute fbi officials and investigatory people who tried to protect the american people from this kind of attack? >> if we talked about hip express and the republican party, we would be here for all eternity. let's just focus and be very clear about the legal issue here, this notion that the president can direct justice department and the criminal justice apparatus to prosecute, to investigate people he thinks are his political enemies, that is the hallmark, as you correctly point out, of a banana republic. that's the entire reason that the founding fathers were careful with the constitution, to make sure that american citizens wouldn't be subject to the whims of kings and queens as the founding fathers had been who could use criminal process to take out their enemies. the fact that the president is

doing this is frightening. it is dangerous. it is a sign there are no more guardrails for democracy. the republican party should be standing up. it is not a political issue. it is not a partisan issue. it is an issue about how the constitution functions and they will regret if they do not stand up because it will be very difficult to walk back from this quote, unquote, new normal in america where the president can decide to prosecute his enemies. >> glen, you have now the senate republicans, lindsey graham leading that charge seeking documents in the probe of the russia investigation's origins and carter page, carter page, who got his fisa warrants renewed over and over and over again including by rod rosenstein. lindsay graham requested documents and communications. they want to now go after chris teefr steel. they want to go after everyone who tried to uncover what russia is doing. your thoughts? >> lindsay graham is now basically leading the lock her

up chant. and he's including lock up obama-era d.o.j. officials who initiated this investigation into how russia was trying to interfere in our election. the chill effect that that might have going forward. think about it. if i am a d.o.j. employee an fbi agent or a prosecutor and i am told listen it looks like for example, north korea is trying to cyber attack our country and interfere with our upcoming elections and you catch that assignment, are you going to have in the back of your head if you id -- if i do this i might be attacked by a future administration for doing the wrong thing not the right thing to protect the country? lindsey graham i think going after these people it is dangerous, and a per version of what the department of justice is supposed to be about.

>> during the bush era we were torturing people in our custody in iraq, et cetera. and you know starving people in guantanamo. now you do have this situation, james baker was on with rachel maddow and said he heard rumors that that chilling effect that glen was just talking about is already happening. what effect does that have on our national security if people do that, if they are afraid of donald trump and william barr. >> in the bush era they were torturing people, water boarding, tortures. we had murder. matter of fact donald trump pardoned an army officer who was tried in military courts and convicted of murder. he took a prisoner, took him out and shot him to death. this is now where the white house is giving them a green light. they are green lighting actual offenses that are being done by people who support their side.

but the chilling effect, as you say is coming from they are going to investigate anyone that outs these terrible offensive things that come from the other side or that comes from the government bureaucracy. people will not be able to function. this government will come to a standstill. and i suspect that's what he wants. he wants people within the government to only do what he wants done, even if it includes committing crimes, lying, and holding up the system of justice. and then he will seek a pass for all of his supporters. we are in a very dangerous time in the united states where the president of the united states, as you say, he is the leader of a banana republic. >> yeah. there is a lesson -- we have to go but there is a lesson for democrats as well. when democrats took over the house in 2006 they immediately took impeachment off the table. >> right. >> which means that the one constitutional remedy for things like torture, the sanctions was taken off the table.

john u. walked away. john complainy, they all walked away. everything goes with the eun terry executive. elie and joyce will be right back. thank you malcolm nance and glen kirschner. happy mohr's day to all the moms in your lives. coming up. >> he ought to be put in jail. if he fails to comply with a lawful subpoena he has no privilege. >> talking about donald trump jr. who doesn't think he has to comply with subpoenas. we will ask elie and joyce what they think should happen to junior if he ignores those congressional subpoenas next. (music throughout)

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your father denied reports he is worried you might be in legal jeopardy because of the mueller investigation. are you scared that you could go to jail? >> i am not. i know what i did and i am not worried about all of that. that doesn't mean they won't try to create something. but, again, i am not. >> welcome back to a.m. joy. donald trump jr. seems awfully confident for someone who has the same name as the president but not the same immunity from prosecution. he is not just facing fed up democrats who want more answers following the release of the dedakted mueller report including about whether donald jr. told the truth to congress investigators in previous trips

to capitol hill but also at least one republican after the senate intelligence committee run by richard burr surprised everyone by dropping a subpoena on junior this week. despite calls from republicans to drop the s&p and end his committee's russia probe burr is standing firm so far. will don jr. comply? what happens if he doesn't? elie and joyce are with us and david jolly also joins the table. before i get to you, david i want to go through the two attorneys. what should happen elie if donald jr. doesn't comply. does the immunity of the president were prosecution based on the olc memo flow through to anyone who shares his name? >> no: right no. there is no immunity that don jr. has. >> the memo didn't say anybody named donald trump? >> no. >> just checking.

>> it doesn't extent to his children or mistresses or anything like that. it is just for the president. >> okay. >> what should happen is that he shows up. a congress subpoena is not spam. he can't crumb pell it up and throw it away. >> if it was spam the administration would let them text it to you. unlimited. >> burr is trying to help don jr. right? like michael cohen basically called him a lawyer and burr is offering him this opportunity to show up in front of the committee and confront the convicted liar and default. if he can't do that, then all he has to do is take the dave chappelle one, two, three, four, fail. >> i am sorry, you did that wrong. let's go to joyce. let me read a statement from a source close to don jr. not don jr. don is a private citizen who has

already been cleared by mueller after a two year investigation. a source close to don jr. who is so brave that he had a source close to don jr. anonymously call someone a coward. joyce vance, is what this source close to don jr. true, that no lawyer would allow his client to comply with a lawful subpoena? >> every lawyer would compel his client to comply with a lawful s&p. as a lawyer you can move to quash a s&p. you can assert an immunity argument. but if your client is s&ped and doesn't show up there are consequences. i would expect congress will impose consequences on donald trump jr. if he doesn't show up

pursuant to a lawful subpoena. >> let me play for you michael cohen's testimony that was described as blowing up don jr. let's play that from february this year. >> mr. trump frequently told me and others that his son don jr. had the worst judgment of anyone in the world and also that don jr. would never set up any meeting of significance alone and certainly not without checking with his father. i also knew that nothing went on in trump world, especially the campaign, without mr. trump's knowledge and approval. >> of course this also applies to the trump tower meeting with donald trump jr. and paul manafort and jared kushner as well met with various russians peddling dirt on hillary clinton. also said, flying home trump dictated a statement in which trump jr. said he and a russian

lawyer discussed a program about adoption of russian children in that meeting. the problem is that the father is implicated in everything that jr. might have been wrong because jr. even according to the mueller report was not bright enough on his own even to coclued. i shouldn't say bright enough. not knowledgeable enough. >> if he is an opportunity for him to clear his name, then do it. you would take this opportunity and junior's lawyers would say yes he will come. if not you can respond sought subpoena but you can plead the fifth. nothing says he has to confess to congress. but i suspect that's what they are looking at here, did junior commit perjury in his earlier testimony. those who are take is investigation into russia is

over, case closed jr. doesn't have to come back. listen, if he lied to congress he does have to come back. and they should understand you are defending the constitution for lying to congress no matter what the matter is. >> this man who votes with donald trump 92.2% of the time when you average the two previous congresss that this guy is trying to hurt don jr. and not let him basically update his testimony doesn't make sense. you can respond to that and the way the fellow republicans is responding to their former trumped out pro-trump member of the knights united states senator. >> yeah this -- >> let me play it for you i first. >> it is crazy. mueller spent two years and $25

million, and to me he's the final word. but i am not going to second-guess richard burr. >> donald trump jr. already testified for hours, more than 20 hours. i believe it is time to move on. i think they have it wrong. >> i personally believe the democrats are trying to keep this thing alive and it is their latest launch point. >> is burr keeping it alive? >> i think you would have to speak to senator burr. i stand by my comment. >> what's going on. >> they are sycophants. every last one of them. here's this week's version of how the world is upside down in washington. a republican chairman subpoenas done jr., democrats in the house pass an emergency spending bill for disaster aid. trump calls the house bill a republican bill and calls the subpoena of junior a democratic subpoena. none of this makes sense. burr is a colleague whom they respect.

they have respect for chairman burr. they don't respect donald trump or junior. yet they are willing to lay down their integrity in a sleight to a colleague whom they respect. >> mccarthy was famous for saying there are two people he thinks take money from russia, another member of congress and i think he said donald trump. it is not like they have great respect for donald trump. maybe they are afraid -- i asked my producers who is on the democratic side on that committee that would be questioning donald trump junior as well. i see kamala harris is on there. maybe they are scared she will own him. we are out of time. i know you have one more thing to say. tweet it. it is mother's day. happy mother's day to everyone who is a mom and to all the moms in your life. can we see the baby. >> we are going to try to pull it off. she's seven weeks. >> david brought with him his

boss. her name is -- what's her name? >> it is carolina claire, we call her cc. and she runs the show. i love this woman. >> she's adorable. >> i waited my whole life to meet this little girl. >> the new ceo of a.m. joy, little cc has joined us. thank you so much. >> joy, if i may, happy mother's day to my wife virginia. >> and happy mother'sday to all the moms in your life. up next we will tell you where there is a hashtag that's trending right now that you really want to hear about. we will tell you about it after the break. r the break. hey! alright, let's get going! and you want to make sure to aim it. i'm aiming it. ohhhhhhh!

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rewarded! learn more at theexplorercard.com. do not forget to tune in at 7:00 p.m. eastern tonight for a bonus a.m. joy episode. we like to call it p.m. joy, followed by saturday night politics with donnie deutsche. donnie will join me live at this table in a second. but first, "the handmaid's tale" comes to life. stay with us. tual customized my car insurance so i only pay for what i need. oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no... only pay for what you need. liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

that's what you get punished for. >> no. >> not for being part of the resistance. because officially also no resistance. not for helping people escape. because officially there is no such thing as escape. is this what freedom looks like? >> who knew "the handmaid's tale" was actually a documentary? already this year, four states have passed so-called heartbeat bills essentially banning abortions at six weeks before

many women know they are progress. georgia has a bill that criminalizes not just abortion in georgia but also leaving georgia to get a legal abortion. next week georgia will vote on a total ban of apportions. and a lawmaker has a bill that calls for the reimplantation of he can tonightic pregnancies a will it maehl medical impossibility this raises the question whether any of these men passed biology. all of these are uns constitutional under row v wade. joining us, the former mayor columbus, georgia. who is running for senate. and the president of narog. the bills are unconstitutional, seeming to violate roe versus wade. can you describe what is in the georgia bill and whether the goal is just to overturn roe? >> absolutely the goal is to

overturn roe. it is in the preamble of the bill it literally says that the object is to take the planned parenthood versus casey by ability definition and make it encompass the entire protections of roe versus wade, so therefore it would be meaningless, that viability would be and personhood would begin at the point of conception at which point a women, a pregnant woman would become a vessel of the state because the state would then take a compelling interest in her womb and there would be competing personhoods. of course as you point out that's theologically, legally and biologically impossible to have one person encased in the flesh of another, one person living off the life blood of another. but they have considered it to be such personhood that they have declared it to have taxing status so that this cellular life has taxing status, and also

ha has to be counted in the census. it is an extreme effort to overturn roe versus wade. you said it is patently unconstitutional. it is today, joy. but we are waiting to see whether they are junioris or identify logs on the supreme court of the united states f. they are idea logs they can rewrite the law any way we wish. >>. in theory then, this cellular life has to pay taxes along with the mother host who i just they consider a host. can a woman who get incarcerated who gets pregnant, then are they incarcerating another life. can a pregnant ride in the hov lane? how far would this go there are so many tracks, it is fodder for late night tv shows. and it is tragic what it is

doing to women in the most intimate sometimes painful decisions of their life. they are making a mockery of it but they are giving this cellular life tax exempt -- or tax credit, excuse me, and all sorts of other privileges, benefits. and the one interesting thing is to have it counted as part of the census. >> uh-huh. >> you have to have a birth date to be counted in the census. we are not sure how that's going to go. it is patently unconstitutional under the law as it is today. joy, these legislators need to stop practicing medicine without a license. we knew republican elected officials struggled with environmental science as they handled climate change. we knew that they struggled with math as they dealt with her deficit. now we know that they know nothing about biology. >> they should all go back and do seventh grade all over again. let me read you -- let's go over to alabama. the lieutenant governor of

alabama issued a statement following the raucous kind of what they went through to push their law through. it says since taking the gavel i have followed both the spirit and letter of the rules and i will continue. it is important we pass this statewide abortion ban legislation and begin an effort to overturn roe versus wade abortion is murder. what you have is people who is religious convictions state in their view abortion is murder. but when they are legislating it can you talk about the implications for applying what is sort of christine law to the precepts that we thought were enshrined. >> there is so much to unpack there isn't there? >> yeah. >> the paragraph that came after the one that you stopped at in the lieutenant governor's statement was he actually applauded donald trump for putting on supreme court

justices who were idea logs. i want to say millions of people, mostly women, actually fought the nomination of justice cavanaugh and what did we hear? we were hysterical and row v wade was settled law and they were never coming after it. and here we are months later with the gone putting their cards on the table. it is about overturning roe. it is about the fact that they have now stolen the court if you go back to merrick garland and now it is about ideology. there was a wonderful twitter thread that went viral by a raabi who explains in judaism there is a definition of when life begins. i go back to mario cuomo who gave a speech at notre dame proclaiming as a pro-life

individual raised in theth ka lick faith he was ethically obligated to govern in a pro choice manner. there were a lot of reasons for that in his speech including the damage and detriment to the women involved but a lot of it in unraveling democracy which we are seeing when you allow ideology to substitution abortion law. i say the abortion laws are the tip of the spear. it is really not about abortion and never has been. otherwise they would join hands and fight for contraception and mortality. it involves control. they start with women, they are always the first in the cross hairs. >>. what do you make of these calls to boycott the state, for the entertainment industry to pull out. there is even a sex strike called. it is trending at number two on twitter for women to make

incells out of all the men in georgia. do you support those measures to protest the law? >> you hear people's desperation to want to do something, to make their voices heard. of course i don't want to support anything that hurts the state of georgia and the people who would be impacted, people working these jobs trying to make a living and support their family, right? but the object of a boycott, the object of these various efforts are to get people's attention. >> yeah. >> what we need to come to grips with as a people is that women are the sole fiduciaries of any life they carry. if republican elected official cannot respect our most private and important decisions we cannot respect and support them in elected position. >> come back at that talk to us about your senate run at another time. >> we will. >> thank you so much. appreciate both of you being here. coming up, donnie deutsche is back with me on a.m. joy. we will be asking him about

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prices and charging my customers more. >> they're the biggest importer we sell here. >> it is getting to the point where prices keep dropping, corn drops, beans dropped. >> i would like to keep it going, but we need to fix the drop in prices before they get any lower. >> donald trump ran on a promise to help the forgotten man including formers, but as you just heard from those interviewed by my colleague vaughn hilliard, his policies have hurt their bottom line. >> i'm a world class business guy. >> i built an unbelievable company, very, very little debt. some of the greatest assets in the world. tremendous cash flow, treasumens cash sitting there. >> we're using our great business people to make these

deals. donny, always great to see you. one of the great sources of donald trump's esteem for someone he wants to hire is that they're on the tv. and he added larry kudlow. >> he was a reagan guy. >> pretty much everything that trump stands for is opposite of a traditional conservative. most people know him from kudlow and cramer. cramer is the bombastic one. you have jim cramer on your show tonight, and you taped this interwith him and i want to play a little piece of it. this is cramer's take on this new pro-tariff policy. >> talk to us about what that does to our economy. >> the good news is that we're only able to export about $150

billion and they're sending $550 billion. we can slap higher tariffs on them but there is a split in the white house. there is people, my old friend larry kudlow, they want to do more trade. >> but there is another group that says this is 1947, they're the soviet union, we must contain them. if you look at a speech given at the beginning of october last year, it could have been about stalin versus truman. >> is jim cramer giving trump too much credit? it feels like it is more credit. >> i think it is cultural. we could choose whatever words, and it's just i'm a tough guy. there is no planning or thought. he didn't sit down with economic

advisors. he looks at china like he does joe biden, it is me versus then, he doesn't understand we're a global economy. there was great stories, he used to take papers off of his death, gary cohen is a legitimate ex-coleman sachs guy. i have no problem walking up to the table with china. test the little guy that gets hurt, it is simple that washing machine where you buy one, it will cost more money now, the consumer will pay for it, retail is part of it? no. you look at losing 300,000 jobs because of it. the other thing that no one talks about is china owns more treasuries than anything else. they could bankrupt this country tomorrow if they want today

tomorrow. there is a co-defense. everything comes from a pure meg meglomaniac. >> some of the people that p harbor suspicions. look at everything at walmart, it all says made in china. the farmers that like him get hurt, why doesn't it impact him? is the messaging wrong? >> the message is, i'm going back to culture. the reason that everything peels off of trump is it comes back to the way he got elected was is a way a dictator gets elected. they say it's not your fault, it's the blacks fault, the

muslim's fault, and that gives enough rich people enough of a reason to believe, they say i have enough plight in life, that is the core reason that people look the other way even if it ends up hurting them. >> does it still work now that it is clear that he was not only not the successful businessman he acclaims, he was worst in america, they can't look away from that. >> my previous site, i ran an inside new york business baseball it was known to everybody that he was a promoter. if you talk to any legitimate real estate developer. he took a hotel, hiyatt, he licenses, he doesn't have assets. he lost a billion dollars in ten years. he says he is worth $10 billion, i think he is possiblyly worth half a billion, but he is

nowhere near what he said. he nas the-- nas there a $3 biln value on the trump name, but now we know it is negative $3 billion. >> that will be great, make sure you tune in tonight for 8:00 p.m. for saturday night politics, i'm his lead in, i'm on at 7:00 p.m., and then donny, nicolle, and all all of your friends after the break. y, nicolle, and all all of your friends after the break. this is the story of john smith.

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trump has borrowed so much money that he can't make the interest payments on his loan. he missed a payment on junk bonds that he sold to finance the trump castle casino. they are going to loan him more money to tide him over but only if he cuts back on his lifestyle, sell some properties, and put watchdogs in the company. trump is willing, but few banks are v refused to go along with the deal and he is getting little sympathy. >> he has no one to blame but himself. >> the signs were there in 1990 trump was not a good

businessman, but if you only paid attention to the tabloids, trump was a picture of wealth, a real winner. it was the brand -- it was that brand that ultimately got him into the white house, but in rae reality he was wasn't close to being a winner. indeed he was the biggest loser and that became clearer this with week a massive scoop on his taxes. the times reporters obtained printouts from trump's official tax transcripts for a decade in the '80s and '90s. they show trump's businesses losing hundreds of billions in a area. the times notes that year after year he lost more money than nearly any other individual american taxpayer, literally making him the biggest money loser in america. he avoided taxes for eight of

ten years, and he was peddling the lie that he had the touch, he had the audacity to show up in congress in 1991 at a time when he was a billion dollars in the red calling for change in the tax code to benefit the real estate industry. >> everyone? that didn't apply to his dad. trump's return showed a positive income with one major loss. $15 million invested in his son donald trump's latest apartment project. joining me is nick ackerman, former executive vice president of the trump organization, and david corn, david jones bureau chief pim going to you first,

the feeling that i guess i have is that that trump managed to convince so many voters that he was successful and that was a large part that he was able to win. people leabelieved he was an economic success. now that that is pumptured, what do you think the result with will. >> i think there won't be much political cost for this. i think his base, his followers, have a consult like devotion to him. they say this guy lost a billion dollars and he still got a jet. he still got to do whatever he wanted to do in his personal luf. he still got to a president. i they're so enamored.

and perhaps a way they would like to live their lives. don't think they will reexam their affection and dead diagnosis this guy. he says it shows how smart i am. i lost a billion dollars, i didn't pay taxes and look where i am today. >> were the signs evident? >> i worked in '78 for trump i believe. >> once his empire began to crumble, he was still on tv, still getting interviewed, still being mentioned in the tabloids, intern internally could people tell he was failing? >> he wasn't failing initially. . he was printing money practically from trump tower, and his casinos were initially

successful, but he went off of the rails. and i think we sort of knew about it in 90 or so with things with the casinos really started. >> was there confidence in his leadership skills in did they think he was an intelligent, smart businessman or that he had a rich dad. >> they have done so well, but he had certain instincts and things like that that were good an good. but this 1980 he stopped listening to anyone. that's where the beginning of the end -- >> by the time mark burnett met

him, financially he was a bum. he wanted to create a version of survivor in the city. by the time he had done it, let me read you what happened. a steep drop in the standard of living, most of it belonged to the others. and as the times earlier showed, he skrektly leaned on his father's health. he had to give up half his open, he agreed to limit his personal spending. he sold his yacht, the trump princess. he had to get out of the new jersey generals. you were on the apprentice and

he was selling the idea that someone like you wanted to work for him. that you all, that you, someone as smart as you, should astier to be taught by him. it was ever evidence that wait a minute, he has nothing good. most of us were selected by his team of producers. a lot of it also in looking back was scripted and edited. a lot of what went on was the magic of television, right, and mark burnett was a true genius, right? but we should talk about all of the people left in the wake of trump's illegal behavior. where i'm from, buying trump for

illegal loans, taking money out of the casinos while they were failing, taking advantage of what we call fraud, investor money, things other than what it is applicable for and other than what the investors gave it to him for. so trump got away a lot. he left contractors that were bankrupted by him, small businesses bankrupted by him. they are still recovering from the fact that it took them years to be repaid. that is an important part of this story that we need to don't highlight. >> point even that burnett and trump meet because they meet at wallman reed. the contractors that did the work never got paid. you used to prosecute white collar crime. >> and i also prosecuted a lot of tax cases including starting

with richard nixon's tax case. >> how did he escape the consequences of him and his father's tax cheating, refuting to pay people. >> he was on tv. >> yeah, but he wasn't on the radar. he was a clown. not somebody connected with organized crime necessarily -- >> even though he was it burnings out. >> he wasn't somebody that people looked at thinking that there was a crime here. i was in the u.s. attorney's office in the height of some of this stuff and i never heard his name mentioned once. now you look at what you see and there is just a whole series of criminaltivities related to tax fraud. all of the things they talked

about. on the judiciary committee. i think what you're going to find is that he cheated on his taxes, he cheated the banks, and he did what paul manafort did and manafort is now spending 7.5 years in piz for. prison for. >> for those that may not remember, remember every day seems like a 400 year span. this is mitt romney talking to a lot of donors. >> the president starts off with a huge number. 47% of americans pay no income taxes. our messages of lower income tax

opportunity relate. >> that tape showed he had no connection to ordinary people. it si built by a lot of polish laborers. they were going to pay their salaries, they are ripping out the wires, he uses undocumented labor. he is not just helping people and employing them, he is a cheater. i wonder if the romney stand argue has to apply to someone that helps no one and is one of the 47%. >> i like that you use theed word cheater because he is. he cheated workers, contractors, he cheated the banks and he

committed fraud along the way to cheat them, and he cheated the american taxpayer. the first new york times block buster story was that his family basically defrauded the u.s. government of $400 million in taxes and they called it fraud. that is what he has done. why did this video become so toxic and noxious when donald trump, who said the same sort of things, his own actions don't hurt him at all. what we have here is a situation where there are tens of millions of americans who want to believe in this guy no matter how much he is a con. we had the book "the audacity of hope." this is the "audacity" of the con. it becomes endeering, and i think, you know what the times

does, what we do every day, we try to ill luminate this. there are still some that want a cheater in the white house. and that is the scary thing. the politics is not it is just someone that cheated, but he is trying to change the poverty line. he wants to take away people's food stamps. he is destroying farmers, record bankruptcies among family farms because of his tariffs, and he is like we'll just give you a handout. this is someone that is hurting the very workers that he claims to care about. he is saying oh no, i wasn't a bad businessman, i was just cheating on my taxes because i'm smart, it doesn't compute for me. >> we have to connect his character to the policies and

policies on people's lives. that's where the dots can be connected. it detainee just be trump said this outrageous thing, it has to be what are the implications of a man like him being a con artist and a cheat. the consumer financial protection bureau that was created by elizabeth warn, is now in the payday lending policy. dplat people in this country and now they have had property dexs in place weakened by the trump administration. what does that do for these families that are not earning enough money. wages have remained the same for the past 40 years. not the trump voters and those

people that might be apathetic. >> my great friend, ali velshi, that said the job numbers are people with second and third jobs, and donald trump wants to let bill collectors text you unlimited. he is not for the common purpose. thank you all very much. coming up, one of joe biden's advisors is here, he is is coming up next. she is coming up next. she is coming up next. the bed is huge. it offers a built-in 120 volt outlet. man: wow. plug that in for me. various: whoa! holy smokes! and the all-new silverado has more trim levels than any other pickup. whoa! (laughter) oh wow! woman : there's something for all of us. man 2: it's time to upgrade. get 0% financing for 72 months on this all-new silverado.

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the last thing -- i'm not going to stoop down to his level. the president has deliberately attempted to divide this nation and he has decided to be president for his base. i will be president for all americans. president joe biden trying to take the high road since he started living rent free in donald trump's head. >> joe biden seems to have a lead. i would be very happy if it were

biden. >> happy why? >> sleepy joe. >> joining me now is simone. it is good to see you. >> i'm always good to see you. let's talk about this obsession that donald trump has, this negative obsession with joe biden to the point where rudy giuliani was going to travel to the ukraine to dig up dirt on him and his son. >> can we just for a second say we're in a dim and dark place where the president of the united states personal lawyer is traveling to a foreign government to try to dig up dirt on his his political opponent. that is why joe biden is in this race. he is trying to restore the backbone of this nation.

trump is shook. that is why he went on a crazy twitter rank when the firefighter union endorsed former vice president joe biden last week. the vice president will focus on his candidacy, on communicating and making his case to the american people, and i think donald trump will continue to do what he has done, act out on the internet. >> let's stay with the polls for a minute. it is still very early, new hampshire voters, 36%, and if you look at african-american voters, and this is one that has been surprising to a lot of people, young black voters, also biden, right? 35% for biden, sanders, kamala harris, corey booker. why do you suppose that is.

you chose to work for joe biden. there are a lot of diverse candidates out there. there is an lbgt candidate, an african-american woman, an african-american man, a latino man, all of these diverse candidates to choose from, five women, why is biden ahead of all of this diversity when diversity is what drives the democratic party? >> i think that voters, first i want to caution folks that it's early, if you live by the polls you die by the polls. the president lives by the stock market, and when it does bad he has to take credit for why it is not doing good. we're seeing an excitement for bid biden's kcandidacy. there are amazing candidates in this race and it will be something, this primary will be

long, folks will have to be battle tested, and former president biden is ready to get out and make his case to the american people. he is excited about the debate coming up. i think voters have the ability to make a decision. i think what is amazing about the american experiment is that we have the opportunity to go through a robust process and hopefully the best candidate will emerge, i think that is vice president biden and the person that i think can take on donald trump. >> as a young black woman yourself, why shouldn't it be a black woman, why not? >> who is to say it can't? who is to say it can't be a black person, the voter wills have to decide. i'm operative, i'm advising vice president biden's campaign. i think he is a very formidable candidate. i said he would be one if he got into the race months before in a number of news outlet's. it could be a woman or a person

of color, but i think biden has a strong case to make and he will take it around the country to aaron the votes from folks. >> i will play you talking about your former candidate that you supported, going after joe biden about his fundraising, take a listen. it's a big day in the democratic primary when we're hoping to end it strong, not with a fundraiser in the home of a corporate lobbyist, but in donations, may i ask why not sanders? he is who you believed was the best candidate before. now he is attacking the candidate that you're supporting now, so why not berne ie sander. i think you need to ask bernie sanders why not me. i can't speak to why they're taking the tone they're taking in this race. vice president biden will keep

the bar high and substantive. we're going to talk about the issues, make our case directly to the american people and we look forward to seeing all of the candidates next month. >> let look at the poll right here. there is a lot of use of polls to discourage democrats from taking pursuing impeachment, is senator biden in favor of impeachment. >> i think the former vice president will have to make his case. what he said about impeachment is this. the house and departments and republicans are the hill have a job to do. oversight is important. he is a former senator. oversight is an important part of the job. if any member of congress is falling down on oversight, if any member of congress is not doing their due diligence to get to the american people, they're not serving the american people.

they're toeing the party line and trying to serve the president. he said that congress has to do their job. i think everyone is very dmft nancy pelosi. >> all right, simone sanders. we appreciate you being here, take care. >> talk to you soon. >> coming up we'll tell you why the boston red sox self segregated before they wasn't to see president trump. i have an announcement after the break. president trump. i have an announcement after the break. with fidelity wealth management you get straightforward advice, tailored recommendations, tax-efficient investing strategies, and a dedicated advisor to help you grow and protect your wealth. fidelity wealth management.

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contrary to popular belief, there is still good news in the world. like tyra banks on the "sports illustrated" cover. and the duke and duchess of sussex was born, and i'm uncovering the cover of my new book "the man who sold america."

we'll look at how we got here and consider what will be left of america when the trump presidency is over. it is available for preorder where ever you preorder books right now. more "a.m. joy" after the break. . more "a.m. joy" after the break. open and honest with your doctor about how you're feeling. because how you're doing emotionally, affects your physical health - and vice versa mr. danson, would you mind? i love doing this thanks, but i just need you to fill out the medical history. that's embarrassing go in for your annual check-up, and check in physically and emotionally cigna. together all the way. do i have to do the age part? okay

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we still have a long ways to go and i put it in capital letters. this is our reality. i'm the guy that has lived it,

i'm the guy county there in the off season. and i don't feel right going while people are struggling back home. >> alex cora that lead his team a resounding world series skipped the visit to the white house this week. he is not the only one that steered clear, ten other players snubbed trump's invitation including mookie bets. all that skipped were latino or african-american. all but one of their white teammates did go. shouldn't their lacking solidarity with their teammates.

and author of million slaves. this picture, if you look at the way it was put together in staged, the white house advance team placed one black gentleman right in camera shot of donald trump, right? he is the third base coach, he is carlos, he is from the dominican republic. you a cuban-american there to the left, and then chris sail on the other side. this stageing, and the fact tha so many, all of the white teammates, decided they would go. >> that is the bigger picture. one of the things that has to happy, and that is great in that locker room. that is when stuff gets hashed

out, a lot of white -- and this has nothing to do with white teammates, they have a guy, they got it. a lot of white teammates told them about police brutality. a lot of the white guys in baseball are kind of tone deaf. i don't think they understand the pain that a lot of them -- a lot of them, 33% latin players, so -- >> i don't know if i have much hope in all of this taking place, no one should go to the white house as long as trump is there. once you go to the white house, the road garden, what have you, you say you're supporting racist and crazy programs. let's talk about what should happen. we should have about bunch of

peewee out there. they hugged and everything and that was okay. >> that was in '68. a white, i think it was a kb german -- >> no, it was peter norman. >> the myth about the white players supporting colin kaepernick. you can count on one or two or three fingers the number of white players that sat down. so here is what i think is good. at least the black players and the players of color, they're holding tight and saying we're not going to be part of this and it is driving donald trump crazy. >> they are saying listen, my job is being a manager but off of the field i'm just for a lot of spectators, i'm just like another latin guy. you have to see me as a human

being. i have a lot of respect for alex and the black players. you to deal with that. and david ortiz, big papi, this is what he said on monday. when it comes down to the way that immigrants have been treated it goes a long way. you don't want to shake hands with a guy that is treating immigrants like x because i'm an immigrant. you have people willing to stand up. david price retweeted, he was retweeting a tweet that said "it is the white sox that are going. he backtracked off of it for very smart reasons, but he amplified it in that tweet. >> i want to it has not matte d

mattered, they went above 500 for the first time. so that could be just a little overrated, but one thing that is not overrated is once you step today into that white house you're making a statement that you don't want to make? >> baylor takes the black women -- >> that's college, there is arm twisting in college. there is scholarships and you can make them go. the bailor women -- there was a lot of meme's, but they had to go, right? >> we don't have a picture of them in the white house, but their faces look grim and you're forcing them to stand with him in a photo op and they're being used. >> to me there is only one person that can get away with

being in the white house and be a man of color and no controversy, that is tiger woods. >> don't be fooled, he is a singular guy that can get away with it. >> and a business partner. there is the picture of the womens. i want to talk about this, it is normal to confer on a great athlete, but it is not just a great athlete, but there is something unseemingly about the guy designing his golf courses getting the medal of freedom. >> that was a big thing, i think the great essex change came when

lebron said they weren't going, and he said it used to be an honor before you took over. so from this point on, i think going to the white house is no longer a day at the beach. it is a referendum. >> one more thing about tiger, he is benefits from the mohammed ali thing. tiger woods, he had the dui and the programs, he was considered bad. >> but he was never a threat. >> to what? >> go back to 1997 after he won the masters people went crazy. you had them out there saying -- >> he was okay with it. >> yeah, but the other thing too, he also had the wrath of the black community back then, i

went on open rah rin frewinfreyd about this. now he is lovable because he is vulnerable and people are supporting him. >> i want to make you do a pod cast together. i would like the two of you together. this is so much fun. >> i need it to be a podcast. >> what? >> do you remember calvin coolidge. >> he was a friend of mine, he was my neighbor. >> bill covered him, i remember reading the story, remember when it was like -- >> i have lost control. >> calvin coolidge and ohmohamm ali in the same segment.

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♪ that music like that just makes you go yeah. that was filled in 1972 on what was supposed to be a return to church. and then the footage was lost for decades. aretha franklin's live recording of "amazing grace" is still the best selling record of all time. and it can be found in the documentary of the same name, joining me now is the creators

of "amazing grace." i between the see a preview of this and it was like going to church. you could see you could see the church people in the audience, we were jumping. it was incredible. tell us this story about how this amazing footage was lost and found. >> in 19272 sydney pollack was hired to direct the film and unfortunately he forgot to bring one of those. you needed that to sync the audio with the video because you needed film in those days. you didn't have one of these. so the film just need ed technology to catch up with it so it took 36 years and a lot of drama and here we are. now is the time. >> there's so much rich in the documentary. you see her father, who was considered one of the greatest preachers of all time that was even praised by dr. martin

luther king, mick jagger catching the spirit, slipped in the back. there's so much there. for people who have seen the documentary, you don't hear aretha speak, just speak through song. what does that say to you as a filmmaker? what is the meaning of that? >> i think aretha made us feel things. it wasn't so much what the words were, it was how we felt. the words matter, that's for sure. but her ability to make us feel is what brings us to our partnership with the prayers of preacher dr. william barber and the responsibility that the feeling she gave us is viewed with. >> and aretha franklin was more than just a great singer. there are a lot of great singers but she was a great president who was more about popular music

versus gospel music. you talk about importance and why it's important to see her in this way in this film. >> think about it, aretha was there at the civil rights movement. she was going to be a part of the poor people's campaign before dr. king was assassinated. her daddy preached one of the sermons her daddy would have preached about not bowing down at the campaign. if you listen to this music, joy, 1972, dr. king is assassinated, the war on poverty and richard nixon in office. it's almost like instinctively aretha knew the people needed the gospel she sang. born out of mississippi where people had to sing in order to live. if you go through those songs, she starts with "holy, holy, we need to come together," and we needed it then and now. then she talked about how to get

over. then she talked about a land that would never grow old. when you're facing domination and oppression, even if they kill you, there's a place you will go that you will never die and never given up fighting in the present moment. >> and she was a leadership voice, that is one thing that feels missing in this era, that leadership era in song. there's a great gospel tradition. but can you talk about what it would mean to have an aretha now? >> she talked to me before she died, i talked to her, after she heard me at the democratic convention, she just called and wanted to be part of the poor people's campaign. we need what we call feel musicology. now we have a woman rebirthing that movement and training. there are colleges across the country learning how to sing

songs, sometimes gospel, changing the lyrics. the poor people's campaign, we understand singing songs in the arts are a fundamental part of transformation. it hooks us together, it biepds us together. so we may not be able to sing exactly like aretha, but we have to imitate her. we have to follow her pattern. >> absolutely. alan, what do you think the people are going to walk out of the theater with, besides just feeling like you have been to one of the greatest church services outside one preached by william bishop barber, that you've ever been to? >> feeling the joy that aretha brought to us. it really is a joy us experience and to appeal to our better nature in the words of abraham lincoln. it is our responsibility. over the summer reverend barber and i are going to go all throughout the south and we know you will be with us doing some voter registration and showing a movie and spreading the gospel,

which is aretha franklin's joy. >> reverend james cleveland, there's a lot of people that people know the name that you're getting to see. and he's quite a singer too. he had a deep voice as well. >> and the choir and diversity of that choir. and people don't need to misinterpret that the shout in church is so you can stand the craziness in the world. it is a form of power. i just came from chula, mississippi, where aretha's daddy was from, poorest city, poorest county, poorest state where literally the governor is just dismissing these people. they are still singing the dpgo even as their fighting for justice. >> absolutely. that's a tradition that goes all the way back to the days of enslavement where song and spirituality was guiding people out of very dark places. thank you very much for bringing this film. and happy mother's day to

everyone out there. and we want to send love and sympathy to the entire "a.m. joy" team linda walker who are saying good-bye to their beloved grandfather tom franklin passed away at the age of 100. yes, 100 he achieved. we love you, bee linda, very much. nooooo... quick, the quicker picker upper! bounty picks up messes quicker and is 2x more absorbent than the leading ordinary brand. [son loudly clears throat] [mom and dad laugh] bounty, the quicker picker upper. now with new prints featuring characters from disney/pixar's toy story 4 in theaters june 21.

[spanish recording] so again, using "para", you're talking about something that is for someone. ♪ pretty good. could listening to audible inspire you to start something new? download audible and listen for a change.

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i mena is up for alex witt. >> thank you, joy. have a great day. it is 9:00 in the west, noon out east. alex is off today. the president, his attorney and new fight in the congress. shows no sign of ending. plus the two words washington can't seem to agree on. >> we're now in a constitutional crisis. >> we're going to hold the ag in contempt. >> i wasser fromming to it as a confrontational crisis. >> crisis or confrontation. >> i think we're approaching a crisis. >> i'm not even sure how you can say we have a constitutional crisis. mrs. political fireworks over a holiday tradition. the major changes the president wants to make to the july 4th celebration. and blonde ambition, a