deal with unfairness i would not be able to do. so i cannot not play my part and you cannot play your part because those kids will be looking to us to do for them what was done for us and that's keep moving this nation forward no matter how difficult, no matter how challenging. that does it for me. thanks for watching. see you back here tomorrow at 5:00 p.m. for a new live edition of politics nation. up next, "deadline: white house" with nicolle wallace. ♪ o. hi, everyone. 4:00 in new york, it's donald trump's ukraine. the personal attorney, rudy giuliani, who was the very first to defend the president when robert mueller's report revealed more than 140 contacts between

the trump campaign and russia is heading to ukraine to dig up dirt on the democratic front-runner and his family. it's a story you have to hear a few times to believe. on the very same morning donald trump bestowed the honor of a double insult nickname on a man who beats trump in early head to head polls sleepy creepy joe biden we learned that rudy giuliani is heading to the ukraine to meddle in two elections. he will urge them to pursue inquiries that can yield new information about intense interest to mr. trump. one is the origin of the special counsel's investigation and to -- into russian's interference in the 2016 election and the other is the involvement of joe biden's son in a gas company owned by ukrainian oligarch.

giuliani said we're not meddling in the election but an investigation which we have a right to do. there's nothing illegal about it. somebody could say it's improper, i'm asking them to do an investigation that they're doing already and that other people are telling them to stop. and i'm going to give them reasons why they shouldn't stop it. because that information will be very, very helpful to my client. and may turn out to be helpful to my government. so the next time someone asks you how bad things are here in our politics, you can tell them they're so bad that the current president publicly depends on foreign governments to prop him up. all this as trump bears down on biden who has clearly taken up residence under his skin. and there's reason for trump to worry about biden. polling averages have biden up seven points in head to head match-ups with donald trump. the largest lead of any democrat hoping to beat trump in 18 months. last night on fox news, giuliani talked about going to ukraine.

>> all i want the ukrainian government to do is investigate and don't let these people buffalo you. that's what they're trying to do. it's a big story. it's a dramatic story and i guarantee you joe biden will not get to election day without this being investigated. not because i want to see him investigated. this is collateral to what i was doing. >> let that sink in. all i want the ukraine to do is -- dot, dot, dot, and that is where we are. after two years of donald trump trying to convince the american people he didn't work with the foreign government to dig up dirt on his political rival. donald trump is now announcing ahead of time that his lawyer is going to work with the foreign government to dig up dirt on a political rival. that is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. with us on set, donnie deutsche, host of "saturday night politics" and who do you have tomorrow? >> probably the stunning example

of greatness is -- >> stop it. >> nicolle wallace, if you like nicolle wallace on "deadline" you'll love her -- she's there because she's helping me get the show off the ground. >> i'm excited about it. now an independent, david jolly at the table. "the washington post." former u.s. attorney joyce vance and a former assistant director for counterintelligence at the fbi. frank, we sat here for 15 minutes before the show started before how i can figure out how if bleep is this happening? i'm going to let you answer it. how the bleep is this happening? >> boy, that's a great question. because we have to ask ourselves is this the same rudy giuliani who cried foul when the u.s. department of justice accepted information and intelligence from former british intelligence officer christopher steele? is it the same rudy giuliani who bemoaned the fact that george

papadopoulos talked about it and there's lots of questions here. emoluments clause, is he -- will he receive a thing of value from a foreign government that helps trump get re-elected? at his prompting are the ukrainians going to do something they would not have already done and therefore provide assistance from a foreign power to a presidential re-election campaign who is paying for rudy expensive trip over there? coming out of campaign funds for the president? lots of questions here. all of which i think is going to take us down a rabbit hole that we don't want to go to as a nation which is that it's okay now for us to rely on, seek the help of foreign governments, even adversaries when we get a president elected. >> joyce, don't we have rudy giuliani's answer to the question frank poses whether or

not it's something of value and rudy giuliani says this. i'm going to give them the ukrainians reasons why they shouldn't stop it because that information will be very, very helpful to my client. rudy giuliani has already said in advance of the trip -- i guess this is a legal strategy that you have to pay extra for, confess your crime on fox news and then it won't be found a crime when the special counsel's appointed to visit. . >> apparently this administration continues with the strategy it's not a crime if you do it in front of the public's eye but this is a very curious situation. whether it's criminal conduct or not, i think the devil is in the details as frank points out and this is in progress, it bears very careful watching. but just to take a step back and think about how absurd and how bizarre it is that we now have an american president through his personal emissary going to a foreign country to ask for a criminal investigation. if there was a reason to investigate, i feel confident

the fbi and american law enforcement would be more up to it. >> and david jolly, after william barr's performance last week why would he think he'd meet any resistance? >> well, they're asking the ukraine to do something that not even barr has the audacity to do, which is investigate public corruption by former vice president joe biden. our own department of justice if there was reason to investigate it, would, but they are not. we frame this as rudy giuliani as a direct agent of donald trump. this is the trump administration and the campaign asking for foreign assistance. again, to investigate a former white house vice president. >> the top democrats are reacting today. here is judiciary chairman nadler and chairman schiff. >> i haven't read the details, but my reaction is we have come

to a very sorry state when it's considered okay for an american politician never mind the attorney for the president to go and seek foreign intervention in american politics. >> it's just appalling and his defense that he's not seeking a foreign government's help in the election just an investigation. yes, it's an investigation designed to affect one of the canadas they fear -- candidates they fear the most, biden. >> ashley parker, there's almost an exhaustion that comes across in the two responses. you know, we just got through a 2 year long investigation into conduct that at least is recognizable in this. this willingness, this openness, to aid political aid in the domestic political campaign context. now you have the president's lawyer, who got away with it once. save yourself the step of investigating us, i'll tell you about it ahead of time.

where are we? >> well, one of the president's sort of chief attributes to be honest is his shamelessness and his audacity and his willingness for him and the people around him to do stuff that a lot of reasonable people they have seen on sort of norms and societal rules absolutely would not do. so you have seen this all along. you have seen the president you know come out in the campaign and say, russia if you're listening, release the emails. the president came under scrutiny for the trump tower meeting, well, wouldn't you want opposition research on your opponent? he's paid very little political price, he's faced little blow back from his own party in congress and so it's not surprising that his lawyer would go ahead and sort of continue that trend of sort of being shameless and doing this stuff out in the open and in public

view. >> i concur with everything that ashley said about donald trump's comfort with shameless conduct. what i don't understand is that the reason he could never acknowledge russia's malevolence is because it would undermine his victory and now he's saying i can't beat biden on my own. i can't do it. i need a foreign government to help me beat biden. if the whole direction of u.s./russian foreign policy was rooted in his insecurity, he couldn't have won without russia's interventions how is he so down with rudy giuliani saying i can't beat biden without the ukraine? >> because there's a sense of fraudulence. the two that you played is something that the democrats should hit hard. your reaction to nadler was mine and schiff's that's the scary part. that's where trump is winning. when you start -- here you have jerry nadler. he is sighing.

it is such overload, the despicable conduct and the despicable characters that it is becoming the norm. we have a rogue presidency and there needs to be rage. there needs to be fear at this point. there can't just be now the dems very left brain, yes, you need nancy pelosi with a calm hand. but there needs to be rage. we have a president sending over his hit man to basically say i'm going to get -- by the way, the whole thing invested in biden is off by -- the timing is off. there is nothing to investigate. what he's talking about, biden getting involved with an oligarch, somehow his son was making money off the business sale, they're a year apart and there's no there there. i have said it many times, trump is doing what the worst players and actors in the history of man many kind has done. he's taking every single step

and every other country they say it can't happen here. it can happen. it's starting to happen here. between barr and this later incident, it's a new level of dictator playbook. we're getting there, folks. at the end of the day there's only one thing that changes it and people voting. that's i. we're moving to the final dance in november of 2020. the american people better get it because four years of a guy who doesn't have to be running again, take wherever your mind can take in a bad place and we can go there. >> frank, with all of the fog and all of the lies that come from the president, the truth tellers get drowned out but one spoke out today, former fbi general counsel jim baker who talked about enough being enough with all of the lies and all of the smears around the origins of the original russia investigation. here is jim baker earlier today. >> honestly, there was a point

in time relatively recently where i just became sick of all of the bs that is said about the origins of the investigation. i just got fed up with it. this incident the papadopoulos information is what triggered us going down this path. again, it's against the back drop of a dump of emails that were attributed by various entities to the russians in one way or another. and then other things going on this summer and then this thing lands in the middle of that. that's what then focuses us and triggers this chorus of investigation. >> frank, it seems like we can never share enough original source information about the truth of the russia investigation. your thoughts about jim baker speaking out and what he had to say. >> i applaud him speaking out. again, the fbi and particularly counterintelligence is a culture of secrecy, but this time in history calls for us to set the

record straight. i think that's what baker is trying to do. our attorney general is doing the opposite. so he's put out there this notion that he's looking into the predcation of the russia ci investigation. well, get it over with, get it out now. because the longer he takes doing this and implying there's something wrong with it, the more the public will think there's something wrong with it. the ag doesn't want to see it resolved. >> joyce, i want to bring this back to the man who spent 22 months looking at the questions that emerged from that original suspicious conduct from papadopoulos which was the match. robert mueller found that his investigation established multiple links between individuals tied to to the russian government. those lengths included offers of assistance to the campaign in some instances the campaign was receptive to the offer. so most parents recognize

patterns. we learn pattern recognition if our kid lies about brushing the teeth, and they go to the dentist we are not surprised they have cavities. they lie about contacts with foreign governments to cover up the dependence on assistance. they can't take their case to the american people. is that where we are again with the ukraine? >> you know, sometimes it takes cavities a while to show up. you might not see them at the first visit but down the road six months or a year later suddenly they're more apparent. mueller was very careful in his report to point out that he was not in the first instance making a decision about collusion because it lacked a legal definition. he was looking at whether there was -- between russia and the trump campaign. i don't think that we can say that enough because the president continues to say no collusion. and that's not what mueller found. he did find a pattern of this

repeated outreach from russian and there was maybe some parallel play by the trump campaign. but no evidence of an agreement. we should carefully scrutinize what's going on in the ukraine and be very careful. keeping in mind that prosecutors who decide there's not enough evidence to prosecute today might view that decision differently six months down the road when new evidence comes to light. >> ashley, i want you to try to wrap this up for us. when you talk about a white house that spends as much time and energy wanting to investigate political enemies as this one does, you're so far beyond the norms that norm busting doesn't do justice to sort of wrapping that conduct in the right frame. i mean, this is a white house that spends precious little time talking about spreading democracy, precious little time sort of being in touch with any sort of granular details of a policy process. but a whole lot of time and energy punishing their enemies.

shuttering the windows of the white house so no one can see in. finding out how to grind the axes of those who made them mad. who's your take on the state of play as this extraordinary week wraps up? >> this is a president again who is sort of in a number of ways chipped away at democratic institutions to the point where stuff happens every day that would kind of end the political career of any other politician and that was sort of what you got at with that exhaustion. we're seeing that level of exhaustion just with the sort of clashes between the white house and what's going on in congress, with not turning over any documents, making them fight for anything with subpoenas. i wanted to add one more thing, this is what has the -- has not learned its lessons or has frankly learned the wrong lessons. you have a president who in theory should be so grateful to be out a little bit from that mueller cloud, and it's almost as if he seems to on the one hand miss that opponent. he's still attacking mueller.

still going after them. and he's allowing, you know, either tacitly or implicitly again, you know, his top emissary rudy giuliani to behave in a way that could cause another scandal, another cloud that could embroil his presidency. >> ashley parker, you're about to celebrate your first mother's day we hope it's a great one. >> thank you. >> thanks for spending some time with us. after the break, a top democrat threatens to use a new tool as the trump administration defies subpoenas but will it work? and with the political mayhem at home are enough of us paying attention to a world on fire? we focus on today's hot spots and as the 2020 field of democrats sharpens the attacks on donald trump, fresh polling shows that the democrats are hungry for a confrontation with this president. all those stories coming up. -that's how a home and auto bundle is made.

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i think it's far more practical to consider levying

individual fines on the person, not on the office until they comply. courts use that practice. >> you're talking about a big number? >> yes. yes. well, you know, you can fine someone $25,000 a day until they comply and that will get their attention. >> can you do that? >> we can do that. but if there is going to be this across the board stonewalling we'll have to consider extraordinary remedies. >> wow. house intel committee chairman adam schiff talking about the next potential step for democrats fighting a white house more committed to stonewalling than transparency. and judiciary chairman nadler told reporters a few hours ago that talks to have mueller testify before that committee are ongoing. >> it won't be next week, but talking -- we're negotiating with him. >> do you think -- >> we're talking with him and the justice department. >> are you committed to have -- are you sure that mueller will come before your committee? >> i won't comment on that at this point.

>> is there any benefit -- >> well, excuse me,ette let me change that. he will come at some point. if necessary we'll subpoena him. >> is there a benefit -- no. he may prefer to do that because he's in more free from the instructions of the department of justice. but that should be only a matter of weeks anyway. >> joining our conversation, former "time" magazine managing editor rick stengel. rick, your thoughts on this sort of extraordinary moment, this extraordinary standoff between the white house and congress about so many consequential things. >> yes, i mean, the fact is the executive branch is basically not entertaining any of the offers and compliances that are necessary to the legislative branch. it is kind of unheard of which is why you have the two chairmen saying we have to go to extraordinary remedies. i mean, the house basically had this subpoena power and the ability to punish people who

didn't answer the subpoena power and that existed through the '30s and '40s and then it kind of waned but they should bring it back. in the sense that i don't think there's a constitutional crisis, but a constitutional crisis if the executive branch doesn't comply and there's no remedy for it. this can solve the crisis. >> what, the fines? >> the fines, the imprisonment. all of these things are possible. >> so you think that the congress needs to accelerate -- >> yes. there's been a decline in congress' power for i don't know the last 100 years and a rise in executive power. then and the problem is this rise in executive -- the unitary power of the executive combined with a president who has autocratic tendencies that's why congress needs to -- >> it's a slippery slope. so now you're giving the party the ability to imprison that's

dangerous. look, nobody -- >> it's the institution. it's not a party. >> but it's politically driven institution at all times. >> let's get to the person who was -- >> sorry. >> look, i'm an institutionalist and i think for that nancy pelosi owed it to the country to open up the impeachment right there. >> let's just -- the president today is an unindicted co-conspirator in the hush money scheme. >> this is how it was different from john edwards. donald trump is named in that guilty plea. so are we going to allow him to commit small crimes? >> that's big one. >> a big one. right. this goes to the campaign finance violation. i put it out in 14 tweets you can impeach the president in the mere length of a tweet thread based on what's in the mueller report. i think where congress -- >> so why haven't they? >> honestly, because nancy

pelosi was speaker once before. and she presided over the greatest loss in house seats of any majority since world war ii, 63 seats. it was a disastrous end to her speakership and i think she's reflecting on that. she knows this may be politically unpopular and so she's waiting for it to become more politically popular. >> it is moving in that direction. impeachment has gone from 40 to 45%. >> it shouldn't matter. >> i agree with you. can we have this conversation? because i think that -- i think the fact that impeachment is unpopular is all of the cover that the democrats need to simply do the right thing. >> because you're also defending the house of representatives by holding the president accountable. you're not just requiring better fitness of the occupant of the white house. the constitution gives us this authority we are obligated to use. i understand she does want to do it. but if you're an institutionist who sees the view point of the institution of the house and not the political party in charge, you don't have any option. i think what they should do is set a deadline and say on july

1, the house judiciary committee is taking a vote whether or not to open up an impeachment or not. if you want to join us for the conversation and testify before then we'd love to hear from you. if not we're taking -- >> let me just add our two law enforcement voices to the conversation. because i think if you head down this road -- i think the political frame around impeachment which is a political process and i understand why there's a political frame around it but i think it's a toxic conversation absent considerations about the rule of law and what that means in this country. frank, you and i started this conversation at the beginning of the week. if you know that mueller does after 22 months you cannot say that donald trump did not commit crimes how do you not take that document and pursue an investigation into those crimes that robert mueller found in his report? i mean, the justice department had entertained the possibility that after the mueller report became public with the

underlying evidence and the witnesses that it would be turned over to a congressional process, frank. >> yeah. so look, let me add yet another reason for impeachment. not only because we clearly have at least ten incidents described in the report of obstruction, but now we have a president who is essentially walking away from the founding principle of our government which is that we have three equal branches of government and that the american people hold the executive accountable through their elected legislative branch and he's rejecting that by stonewalling every possible attempt at oversight. that alone is enough to bring impeachment proceedings against the president who is saying i don't buy this form of government anymore. so we're undergoing a stress test of almost unprecedented proportions of whether or not we're going to stick with three equal branches of government and what we'll be find out is

whether or not the legislative branch has any teeth to enforce their equality and i'm not saying that we're in the constitutional crisis as chairman nadler is saying but if the remedies fail and the enforcement fails we'll be at a point where there's -- there is a crisis. >> joyce, let me just ask you to do the same thing. leave the politics to the hacks -- i only call myself a hack. leave the politics to me and just lay out from your perspective the case for examining both the crimes alleged to have been committed by this president in -- by the southern district of new york and that illegal hush money scheme, a part of the reason that michael cohen now sits in a prison. and the crimes that robert mueller wrote in english language you could not exonerate donald trump from in the mueller report. >> you know, as you point out i'm not a politician, i'm sort of a little country prosecutor and one of the things that i know from trying cases to juries

for more than 25 years is that as a prosecutor, you have to make a hard nosed call about whether your evidence is sufficient to convict with the jury and the jury pool that you will be drawing from. and so part of your calculation is to continue investigating until you have sufficient evidence. impeachment is sort of a parallel process, right? where you're looking at the evidence you have available and thinking about whether or not it's enough. and nancy pelosi will look like a rocket scientist if in one or two months that 40 to 45% jump in americans who believe in impeachment is suddenly 45 to 50 or 55. as you point out, she has really solid building blocks. the process that democrats should be engaging now is this evidence gathering proposition. they should be looking not only at what's in the mueller report but what's in those 12 investigations that have been sent to other u.s. attorneys offices compiling evidence to

make a decision about high crimes and misdemeanors. >> i want to talk as a ceo. as a ceo i look -- this is all noise. i have a corporation in this country in crisis. i only fix it if i get trump out of office. everything else is discussion. that is it. the world starts to collapse. and i work back from that. and until i get to the point that the evidence is so overwhelming that i'm going to bring an impeachment process and even if the republicans shut it down which they will, that the american public can clearly say no, donald trump -- they're not -- he's not a victim. until that point strategically i don't hit my end objective of getting to trump. i'm out of the political game. i'm out of the theoretical game. i'm in the one simple strategic objective get this guy out. so until i can get an impeachment that even though it won't end in him being thrown out of office the american public as sitting as jury will

go, no this guy is guilty. >> the only thing i will add, accumulating evidence for a criminal trial is one thing. you know i have enough evidence to convict somebody of murder one or whatever. but remember impeachment is a political trial. high crimes and misdemeanors. there is not a definition of that. no judge can say what that means. so what is sufficient evidence to get to the bar of high crimes and misdemeanors, nobody knows. the congress taking that vote and saying yes, we vote to impeach. >> let me give you the last word. >> bob mueller uses the term substantial evidence repeatedly and donnie, i get your approach. but if you were ceo and the corporate bylaws required specific performance you couldn't ignore those because they contradicted your end goal. the constitution requires impeachment and not everyone agrees with that. >> so ceos, members of congress,

mommies don't let little infractions go. but you deal with in front of your face. but it's an abundant -- a mosaic of conduct worthy of heading down this path. thanks so much for spending so much time over the last two years. after the break, with the president trapped on twitter and the white house not sharing anything with congress it's no wonder it feels like the world is on fire. we'll talk about the hot spots after the break. 'll talk about s after the break. so...your student loans are holding you back? it's time to refinance with sofi. with lower monthly payments, you could save big. see your rate in two minutes. ♪

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as the white house settles in for the long war with congress, there are several foreign policy crises in the making. donald trump renewed his trade war with china this morning tweeting about a dozen times about tariffs. the two countries ended the talks today with no deal and china vowing retaliation. u.s. bomber jets in the middle

east to counter threats from iran and trump's north korea pen pal is show nothing love. the country launched the second short range missile in a week yesterday and kim jong-un called for full combat posture. according to new reporting in "the washington post," the relationship was so friendly it caused rifts between the two leaders and their aides. quote, in april, kim demoted his point man for the nuclear talks and rebuking a former spy chief who had an aloof demeanor. and donald trump is trying to preserve a positive atmosphere for a deal. and according to one quoted in the story, what's really striking is how in boast systems the bureaucracies aren't always moving in the same direction as the leaders are signaling. joining the conversation, the rev al sharpton, host of "politicsnation" here on msnbc. your thoughts on the chaos that

the president is presiding over? >> when you look at the fact on the move over china, playing the trade war, putting us in a position that tariffs will go up, it is going to hurt his voter. i mean, you're talking about farmers that are now going to lose. china saying we'll buy our soybeans from brazil. when you look at his romance with kim blowing up in his face. you're talking about a man though that i think we've got to clear a -- clearer picture this week a man in the middle of losing over $1 billion writes a book "the art of the deal." so you're talking about somebody who doesn't know what they're doing. he didn't know what to do in his own businesses. he's going to advise people on how to cut a deal while he's going into bankruptcy. it is no wonder why we see all of these fire spots around the country. i mean, around the world. he have's the one starting the fires as he did in his own personal business. if he didn't have daddy, he

would have been totally out of business and there's no daddy to come protect him this time. >> rick, if you were still picking covers for "time" magazine what would go on the cover this week? the standoff with congress? or the trade war with china? or the ships moving in to war posture with iran or the two missile tests in north korea? >> yikes? i think i'd do the constitutional crisis. in part because of social media we feel like we're living in constant crises and never ending crises. i want to go back to the ukraine issue speaking -- >> please. >> 30,000 foot view here. this is a potential area of collusion between trump and putin. why? putin annexed crimea, he had a soft invasion of ukraine in 2015. the only country that was backing ukraine from basically being conquered by russia was the u.s. and nato. now you have the president of the united states basically saying, let's make a deal about

this. if you're ukraine, you're caught between these two corrupt administrations. that's a really dangerous thing for europe. >> well, give us one more bead on that. i don't think people maybe are -- our viewers are very smart. they educate me on the topics but sort of put in context what a shift that is in u.s. foreign policy. >> remember part of the reason we are so worried about the connection between trump and putin is that we created the very heavy sanctions against russia in 2014 and 2015. we came to the rescue of ukraine with billions of dollars in money, supported the for schenn coe administration. it was a cold war around ukraine. now ukraine had always looked for the u.s. for backing and now you have a representative of the president of the united states saying give us a little stuff that will help us in the 2020 campaign or maybe we won't help you against russia anymore that's really scary.

>> okay. so i have a microcosm of why we never get to the world on fire. i was handed breaking news about congressman -- issuing subpoenas to the treasury secretary and irs commissioner. ways and means committee chairman richard neil released the following statement after issuing subpoenas to steve mnuchin. last month the ways and means committee began an investigation into the mandatory audit program in an effort to assess the extent to which the irs audits and enforces the federal tax laws against a sitting president and to determine if the audits need to be codified into federal law. as part of that inquiry on april 3 i requested six years of the president's personal and business tax turns. pursuant to my authority i believe then as i do now that reviewing the requested documents is necessary. we can give our viewers -- obviously mnuchin didn't turn them over. they have been subpoenaed. i believe the president's treasury secretary right now is under subpoena. the unredacted mueller report is

under subpoena. don mcgahn is under subpoena. the white house posture do nothing. where are we? >> and what chairman neal is doing, he's going right at mnuchin and frankly barr's argument there's no legitimate legislative purpose. neal is saying we need to see the tax returns to see if he's leveraged by foreign interests. he's defining a definitive legislative purpose and the courts have wrestled with what is a legitimate purpose when it comes to oversight? i think this could be litigated for years and neal is striking out with that -- chairman neal is striking out with that position. but again, every time you're responding to the white house, you're playing on their field. reset the playing field. impeach the treasury secretary. because it's a matter of such grave consequence. do it and watch the president's

head explode. >> to put into context the importance of the tax returns there's an open question on the table. there was a question that the fbi viewed as open. there was an effort to sort of better understand the financial ties, the mueller report turned up a lot of lies around the president and his family's negotiations with russia. there's an open question about whether or not the president is at risk of being compromised by his financial entanglements. >> of course. you look at the levers that the foreign governments may have. go back to the moscow tower conversations and you can go to the domestic matters like we saw in the stormy daniels matter. what different entities has the president set up and moved in between. this is what the state of new york is doing. you can see what the state return is valuable. >> i guess we were here at 4:34 trying to spend 15 minutes

talking about the world on fire and a block to show our work a little. but we collapsed crises that under normal presidency could make up a whole hour. the mounting tensions, the posture with iran. the posture with north korea. the trade war with china. each one of those in a normal administration worthy of an hour of examination and analysis. we're handed a breaking news story about the treasury secretary subpoena from mnuchin. >> well, all part of the normalization of the insanity we have. i want to do back to what the congress was saying. i think this adds up to the impeachment and nonimpeachment and as the subpoenas continue for the democrats, when is the tipping point? that suburban moms, that independents, start to really comprehend it's not -- it's not the democrats trying to get their guy. it's the democrats really just standing for the rule of law and i don't know what that stew is.

i don't know the combination. it's restraint. when i say no impeachment, right now impeaching plays into trump's hand, but you keep the investigations going, keep it going and then at some point the amalgamation adds up to not the 36% but the other 10% that needs to get elected. this is not who we are. >> but -- >> i don't know what that is. >> i don't think we should rush pastrick's point. this is what mom needs to understand who you were talking about the voters. whether we go to impeachment or not. you're talking about people that said that they had nothing to do with foreign involvement in a campaign. but i'm going to send my lawyer to ukraine to find out something on joe biden's son. i mean, they're doing this in plain sight. in realtime. we're going to a foreign country to see if they will help us get dirt on who may be our potential candidate. we're acting like there's nothing normal about this? >> well, we're not. rudy giuliani announced that

endeavor on fox news with laura ingraham and did an interview with "the new york times" about that trip. it would seem what they got out of the mueller report is that committing crimes and misdeeds in full view is a good defense strategy. >> he's saying that in full view, that i'm going to go dig up something if i can on biden's son and americans are supposed to believe this now. and when you look at what the relationship has been between the u.s. and ukraine and by the way i'm going to see if we can clear up some stuff maybe with manafort and all of this. so we're openly dealing with a foreign government with political intentions. we're not expressing that. i hope the candidates start raising this going to his point. because they need to say, look at what they're doing in plain sight and we're running around investigating whether they're dealing with a foreign enemy?

they're going to the foreign country now to try to discredit the front-runner in the polls. >> skip the special counsel next time. after the break, joe biden woke up with a giant lead in new hampshire. we'll show you the latest polling on the 2020 democrats. stay with us. he 2020 democrats. stay with us up the years. but what i do count on... is boost® delicious boost® high protein nutritional drink has 20 grams of protein, along with 26 essential vitamins and minerals. boost® high protein. be up for life. shaving has been difficult for me. i have very sensitive skin, and i get ingrowing hairs. so it's a daunting task. oh i love it. it's a great razor.

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nominee, but already donald trump is making his pick on twitter writing this. looks to me like it's going to be sleepy creepy joe over crazy bernie. everyone else is fading fast. that prediction is actually new would double the support of second place bernie sanders. you've got a theory. >> i think that we are in a position where you've got to recognize we're in a street fight. and i think the problem is when you have people going in the ring and they think they're in a professional boxing match and they're waiting on the three-minute bell to ring and the referee is a referee, this guy's a razor and a broke bottle and you're going to have to fight him as a street fighter. he knows no regulation, you've got to fight him in the only way he knows how to fight, and that's a street fight. >> and there's some data that actually backs you up. in the poll on beating trump the

overwhelming majority, 68% of likely democratic voters prefer to have a nominee who would be a strong candidate against trump even if they disagree with that candidate on most issues. if they are forced to choose just 25% say they would favor a democratic candidate who they're aligned with on the issues even if that person had a hard time beating trump. that's unbelievable. >> this is an unbelievable moment in history. we haven't seen a president like this, and the american people are frustrated because we can't see congressional oversight. because they've never wrestled with a president that has had such a posture towards the legislative branch. those numbers are real. >> it's all right brain, it's visceral. when he came out and said i'd like to trump out back, he's going to have the safe teflon trump had with his voters. whether it's anita hill, whether it's bank regulations, whatever

sins of the past, even if he flubbed some things, they're going to keep propping him up. >> i'd say one of the danger, though, i'm going to pray press critic for a second and i've spent my life covering campaigns, i think there's a danger if the press overcovers the democratic campaign. it's already over covering, it right? let the democratic voters see the candidates, process their message and make a decision. us covering it will thus alter what is really happening out there in politics, and i have to say and i know it's a clishe. >> is joe biden's 20 point lead about his name recognition right now? and how do you overcome that in. >> through building up my own name recognition, coming to new hampshire over and over talking to voters about the issues they

care about and earning their support over time. >> so we will cover every democrat that goes to their front lawn and gets their paper. >> don't ask process questions. ask a candidate about someone else's polling numbers. >> i wasn't standing there. i'm not going to attack the reporters on the trail. that can be a thankless job. let me say this about what voters are saying. i don't care about polls showing people botch, and if you're at 9 and another person at 7, that means someone was on the phone with the pizza deliverer. these polls, i don't think it's correct to ignore them when joe biden announced his candidacy by taking a 2 by 4 to the most disgusting moment of the trump presidency and that was seeing good people on both sides of the kkk rally. >> i applaud he did that, i

applaud that you applaud that he did it. but then the voters will decide and say, yes, you know what i don't care what he thinks about health care or tariffs, i want someone who's going to take a up a 2 by 4 to donald trump. and that's why i'm going to vote for him. >> and just to racism. i think there's a feeling that our president gives safe haven to racists and that's where we are. >> when people stop me they go you have to do something. there is such a pent-up fear and rage if you don't hit that button it's not going to do to. we're in the seventh season of celebrity apprentice. his old tricks -- his bag of tricks that worked in season one of "the apprentice" i don't think it's going to work. >> this whole thing, if you're a

fox news viewer right now you believe joe biden tried to interfere to earn some money for his son, and you're going to believe that until you're chanting lock him up at the convention in a year, it's going to work. >> but his crowd, yes, they'll buy it. but if you're not talking to the other americans the democratic base and independents and look at what they're doing, this is blatantly what we said we did not want is foreign involvement. then you're expanding your crowd. don't forget he lost by 2.8 million votes. you just need to move those electoral states. and i think what we're saying is we're not saying that we want candidates that would go against them that don't have the right positions or major things we're concerned about, but we also want to know they're going to fight, because people want to know if this is the nominee are they going to take it to trump and have the ability to beat him with the right issues. you can have all the right issues. if you're the wrong one in the ring, you're going to get beat.

this is a man that was walking around the debate stage just standing over hillary clinton. they want a candidate that has the right position but that will say wait a minute, back up and go to your corner, what do you think this is? and initial you have a standup candidate you could have all the right policies but they will not feel you can beat donald trump and match him toe to toe. >> you've ran for office and i've worked on a lot of campaigns. it's never something you figure out in a lab. it's emotional. people vote on emotion. and the truth is people are anxious. people are scared, and people are angry. and for whatever reason, maybe it's because joe biden has the biggest megaphone, he's hitting the right emotional buttons at this point. >> and all of the social science of the last 20 years says people vote for how the person makes them feel. and people voted for trump because they were afraid, and they made him feel like he would

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talk to your doctor about chantix. i could talk to these friends forever but we're out of time. my thanks to donny, al, rick. it's our two year anniversary, and i'll see you back here monday for deadline white house at 4:00 p.m. i don't think today's actually about getting information. i don't think it's about getting the unredacted mueller report. i don't think last week's hearing was about having staff question the attorney general. i think as my colleagues said earlier oit about trying to destroy bill barr because democrats are nervous he's going to get to the bottom of everything. he's going to find out how and why this investigation started in the first place. >> this is all about impeaching the president. >> good afternoon and welcome to this special edition