welcome to "kasie dc." i'm kasie hunt. we're live every sunday from washington from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. eastern. tonight the resistance. the president resists as congress tries to pry information out of the white house and tests the cofoundatio of our constitution. and mitch mcconnell says case closed. democrats press for testimony from robert mueller. plus nothing says mother's day like anthony scaramucci. the former white house communications director joins me after patching things up with john kelly. later, the calm before the trade war. but first, remember infrastructure week? >> we're very excited about the conversation that we had with the president. >> that was a very constructive meeting. >> we think we can work with the president. >> there was goodwill in the meeting. >> the purpose of the meeting is not to criticize the president of the united states. >> that just 12 days ago.

now, darkness has once again descended on washington. and the constitutional standoff between the president and congress has turned into an all out war. attorney general bill barr is being held in contempt. president trump is asserting executive privilege over the full mueller report. and talk of a constitutional crisis has grown louder than ever. "the washington post" reports the president and his allies are stone walling more than 27 separate investigations. and the "new york times" is reporting that the president is essentially daring democrats to follow through on their threats to impeach him. a strategy that has not gone unnoticed by house speaker nancy pelosi. >> trump is goading us to impeach him. that's what he's doing. every single day he's just like taunting, taunting, because he knows that it would be very divisive in the country but he doesn't really care. just wants to solidify his base.

>> as the game of chicken over impeachment drags on, the white house is readying itself for yet another multi-front battle. following reports that the president asked white house counsel, don mcghan to publically declare he never obstructed justice. house democrats have renewed their calls for him to testify before congress. that comes as the senate intelligence committee has issued a subpoena to donald trump jr. and as the house ways and means committee has issued a subpoena for the president's tax returns. with that i'd like to bring in my panel for this evening with me on set, bureau chief for "the washington post" philip rucker. former nrcc communications director matt gorman and congressional spore correspondent for the "new york times," cheryl ga stowberg. this battle still unfolding as the white house says absolutely not to every single thing that

the congress is asking for. what's the strategy to play the long game by the president here? >> what we're seeing play out is extraordinary defiance by the white house. there's not been an administration that's resisted congressional oversight in this way in more than a generation. the long game is i think the white house is trying to see how this will play out. presumably the democrats at some point are going to pursue legal action, take this to the courts and let the courts decide whether the administration has to compel with some of the subpoenas but the white house is not going to do anything to speed that up. their intention is to say no at every turn, deny the documents that the congress is asking for, the witnesses, and the president's tax returns that congress is asking for here. it's a dynamic that works in the president's favor as the reelection campaign heats up. >> cheryl, what's the view from the other side of pennsylvania

avenue, on capitol hill? it seems like there has been a real escalation in rhetoric from the democrats over the past week. >> that's right. they feel an increasing urgency to assert their rights as a coequal branch of government. we heard speaker nancy pelosi say this week that president trump is self-impeaching. by that she means the more he rejects their requests, denies their requests for documents, refuses to comply with subpoenas, the more he, in effect, lays a foundation for not complying with congressional oversight. and congress says we have a legitimate right to this information, and as fiphil said it is going to wind up in the courts. this week we'll see a court case. the president is suing elijah cummings, the chairman of the house oversight committee trying to quash a subpoena for the president's financial records.

we'll hear oral arguments on tuesday in that case. that will be an early test of who wins in this constitutional clash. >> the president's personal business strategy playing out in the political sphere. what's your take on which side is winning this battle? >> i think at this point, the president's side is winning. it's game of thrones moment, the queen says i choose violence, and the president is doing the same -- >> you spoiled it for everyone. >> sorry. >> continue. >> he wants a fight, he wants an enemy, he's at his best when he has an enemy. he wants democrats talking about process, subpoenas, and yes, impeachment. next year if he's disciplined enough -- big if. >> it is a big if. >> democrats are obsessed with me, i'm obsessed with you. i can tout the economy and these other things.

that's a clear choice for trump that he likes. >> can i ask about the subpoena of donald trump jr. in the intelligence committee. we know the subpoena was issued before the war of words escalated here in may. it came in april. but at the same time it does kind of conflict with where republicans stand. what's the view -- or seem to stand publically. what's the view inside the white house about the potential dangers of the subpoena for donald trump jr.? >> they don't want donald trump jr. to have to cooperate with the subpoena. and a lot of trump's advisers and the president himself feel like it's overreach. that mueller, in his investigation of russian interference, had the final word. did the exhaustive two-year investigation, case closed as mitch mcconnell put it and that the senate intelligence committee should not be pursuing this any further. that being said the subpoena was issued by the republican chairman of the committee, richard burr, republican of north carolina. that's an extraordinary move because we've not seen many republicans in positions of

power on capitol hill follow through with the oversight requests of the administration and with the subpoena of this nature with the president's son. which goes personally to the heart of this presidency. >> it must say how frustrated the committee is with donald trump jr. >> it is extraordinary, as phil said. and if you look at the senate intelligence committee's inquiry. it is the only bipartisan inquiry really into the russian meddling and the election. so democrats, especially on the house side, really thought this was huge news when richard burr issued this subpoena. but burr took a lot of heat for it from fellow republicans. and a number of them, especially politically -- >> and the president too. >> and the president too. this is a difficult situation for republicans who are running for reelection in tough races. some of them feel compelled now to stand up for the president. to push back against richard burr. so it really is quite a moment.

interestingly, though, this was actually kind of a routine subpoena in that donald trump jr. already spoke to senate investigators and as they wrap up their investigation, the intelligence committee simply wanted senators to have the right to question him as well. but it kind of blew up when donald trump jr. made a big deal of it, the president started pushing back and all of a sudden it was really dividing the republican conference in the senate. >> matt, i mean, who's -- what's burr's play here. >> he doesn't care about the political pressures and he hasn't for most of his career. so he doesn't care about the criticism, i think, and why his 2016 senate race is so competitive. he's publicly said. >> he's not going to run again. >> out of the all the candidates in many 2016, you can argue burr was the most supportive of trump, he campaigned with him, stood by him after the "access

hollywood" tape. he doesn't care what the pressures are. you're right 37 he and mark warner see a clear contrast from the house committee investigations of this. they want it to be bipartisan, drama free. we're not seeing them camp out in cable news green rooms or become rock stars because of this tact. you have seen warner give burr the benefit of the doubt, even when the report came out and there were conversations about did burr go to the white house inappropriately. you saw democrats privately taking a step back no we're not going to go after it. is the white house very concerned about what the senate investigation might show or do they feel it's irrelevant in the wake of the mueller report. >> they're concerned because there's a lot of unknowns. and they'd be concerned if donald trump jr. would comply with the subpoena and do the

interview because he could be giving a false statement. but they're not as concerned as if the senate committee is going to find any -- >> they already said no collusion. >> the senate investigation is a sirius matter they're looking into russia meddling in the 2016 election and what our country should do differently to avoid that in future elections. burr has the responsibility as the chairman of this committee to pursue this to the bottom, which he's trying to get to. >> that brings us to the next point, which is this broader question about whether we are finally in a constitutional crisis. >> we are now in a constitutional crisis. >> i do agree with chairman nadler. >> i agree but a different way. chairman nadler created the constitutional crisis. >> they're the ones that pushed us to the constitutional crisis. >> we're not at a constitutional

crisis yet. >> it is constitutionally unsteady. >> i would define it as a confrontational crisis. that's exactly what it is. how's that for hair splitting? >> and the president weighed in on this very topic on twitter tonight writing, quote, the democra democrats new and untrue sound bite is we are in a constitutional crisis. he went on to say the treasonous hoax is the crisis. is this a crisis. >> it's one of those things that's a self-fulfilling prophesy, you say it is, and it'll turn into one or people will believe it. i think 18 months outside of the election, both sides are going to their corners trying to be as bombastic as they can to raise money and inflame supporters.

if this is this way three months out i'd be concerned. >> shacheryl, is that your take well. democrats, nancy pelosi and her leadership, have been careful how they used it. >> here's my take. we're having a clear calash between coequal branchs of government. what is clear is that it's going to head to the third branch. what happens in the democracy, the judiciary resolves these kinds of issues. i think looking down the road if we got to a situation where a court ordered president trump to com comply with a subpoena or request for documents and the president refused, then i think we clearly would be in a constitutional crisis. and i think that is what democrats are kind of looking down the road and foreseeing. but my take is we're not quite there yet. >> the question, how long does it take that third branch of government to look at this, do

we end up in an election? >> democrats are saying they expect these cases will be expedited and they look back at history, the nixon tapes case in which nixon was ordered to turn over the tapes by the court. his refusal to do so sparked the articles of impeachment against him. so they're very mindful of that history. >> indeed. history lesson for all of us. we're going to talk about president trump's frustration with his attorneys past and present as he trashes don mcghan. and rudy giuliani rethinks a trip to ukraine, which i hear is beautiful this year. >> and later david cicilline joins me the next hour. and in the next hour, marian williamson joins me on set. she stunned many by making the debates this week. she's going to join me live for her first interview after

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the counsel to the president is an appointed position directly answerable to the president. it is not a career spot. i am appointed by president trump. the white house counsel's office has existed since about 1943. it is the primary legal adviser to the president. >> and that involves you in just

about everything. >> unfortunately, yes. >> yeah. yeah. hard for you to say i didn't do it. >> we now know that there are a number of things that former white house counsel don mcghan would not do. the mueller report revealed he refused to follow through on the president's order to fire the special counsel in the early stages of the russia investigation. now we learned within a day of the mueller report's release, the president asked mcgahn to say he didn't consider that to be obstruction of justice. but mcgahn refused. that was first reported by "the washington journal" and since been confirmed by nbc news. the president writing on twitter yesterday, quote, i was not going to fire bob mueller and did not fire bob mueller. in fact, he was allowed to finish his report from unprecedented help from the trump administration. actually, lawyer, don mcghan had a better chance of being fired than mueller. never a big fan. oh how times have changed. >> don mcghan's a really good

guy. been with me for a long time. privately before this he represented me. been here now, it'll be almost two years. a lot of affection for don. he'll be moving on probably to private sector, maybe the private sector. and he'll do really well. he's done an extra job. >> any concern about what he said to the mueller team? >> no. not at pull. >> phil i remember standing in the wings at now president trump's campaign announcement in trump tower with don mcghan, who was there from the beginning. and i remember being surprised to see him because he's somebody that was around here in washington, kind of part of the fabric in a way that very few people in trump's or bit were part of the fabric of the town before this all happened. the president's trashing him now, but in many ways it seems as though don mcghan may have saved trump from himself. >> that's right. don mcghan is a seasoned lawyer who joined the trump campaign at

the very beginning and helped guide the campaign through the legal parameters of the election and figuring all of that. but more importantly in the white house restrained the president from his worst impulses that would have gotten him into trouble or his administration into trouble. it's not just on the mueller investigation and these russia matters, but, you know, when trump wanted to sign executive orders that were illegal, it was don mcghan's job to explain what the law is -- >> that's illegal. >> -- and do things differently that would be legal and would avoid these court challenges that could be difficult for the president. the problem with mcgahn and trump is mcgahn is a lawyer and acted like a lawyer. trump wants somebody who's going to bend the law and break the rules and figure out a way to allow trump to do things the way he wanted to anyway. and don mcghan is a real lawyer. he was not going to do that. >> this is not the role of white house counsel either as we heard don talk about it.

>> certainly not. he's been part of the circles for a long time so he knows his way around washington. he's a pro's pro and a good lawyer. i notice how careful and diligent he was, how he reacted and acted to trump's orders and actions. he not only saved trump but isolated himself legally and ethically, and you can argue in the media by doing things he did, including as "the washington journal" talked about earlier today. and let's not forget, don mcghan is probably responsible for the most lasting achievement of the trump presidency, all the judges. president trump should be grateful to don mcghan for that. >> what's the next step here, because really the president is putting don mcghan here in a tough spot between congress and the executive branch. this is going to be a tough one. >> the house judiciary committee

is eager to hear from him. i talked tonight to a source of mine on the committee, and they said they're still working with don mcghan. as you know, the president does not want don mcghan to testify before congress. frankly, i'm not clear on why president trump would be saying things like not a fan. that doesn't sound like an inducement to don mcghan to stay quiet. as matt said, don mcghan saved the president from himself now don mcghan may be trying to save himself from the president. so i think we will see, william barr -- so i think we'll see, and we'll see if he refuses to come, if he'll be held in contempt the same way attorney general william barr has been held in contempt. and they're interesting in hearing what he has to say precisely because we know the president asked him to make a statement that he, donald trump, had not obstructed justice and don mcghan refused to do so.

why did don mcghan refuse to say that the president had not obstructed justice? >> a critical question and important piece in all of this. when we continue on "kasie dc," anthony scaramucci once called john kelly -- am i allowed to say this on tv? general jack -- i'm not going to say it. but now -- >> do you like politics? is it a fun job being in politics. >> no. no. >> that's one thing you and i can totally agree on it, it completely sucks. >> no, those are not people wearing john kelly and anthony scaramucci costumes. that's actually them. the former white house communications director joins me live up next for his always interesting look at his former place of business, the trump white house. place of busins,es the trump white house. ♪ limu emu & doug

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welcome back. joining me now former white house communications director and the founder of sky bridge capital, anthony scaramucci. thanks for being back on the program, sir. >> happy mother's day, kasie, thanks for having me. >> to your wife and family as well, happy mother's day. you just comprised your assault conference, which is something we were paying attention to before you joined the trump

white house. i couldn't notice but it seemed you had many trump officials frat erniezing with the enemy, people from the obama administration. was the dynamic behind the scenes at the conference as chum my as some of the pictures looked or is there still real friction between people who worked for these two presidents? >> i thought it was cordial. you're in las vegas, the setting is very relaxed. we tried to set it up with a dynamic that people weren't going after each other politically. i think what you find is there's a lot more common ground once people get unplugged from washington. and so i think we did a little bit of that as well. but, you know, ambassador susan rice was there with valerie jarred. robert wolf, who was president obama's chief fund-raiser, other people as well. ambassador crocker, former ambassador to iraq and parts of the middle east. at the end of the day what we're

looking to do at a conference like that is let's dial back the bipartisan and dial up the patriotism and remember we're all americans and we have to solve these problems together. we're not going to be able to solve these problems leaning hard right or hard left and the founding fathers put us together in a way which necessitated compromise. >> speaking of compromise and common ground. you seemed to publicly make up a little bit at least with general john kelly. i'm not going to use the phrase, if you'll forgive me that you used to describe him. but we have a document to describe what you once called him. how did you kind of get over there? >> for the record, i never said anything inappropriate on television. somebody did catch me on tape once, but that's washington and i have to own that. as i told the general when we first met in private, that i did something fireable. the fact that he fired me, i

don't hold him responsible for it and i tell juyoung kids when speak at colleges, when you make a mistake, own it. but i loved the fact he accepted my invitation. at the end of the day i'm a believer there shouldn't be any wining or complaining in sports or politics and as it relates to general kelly i have no grudge against him. whatever our personal differences were, i was hoping we could set them aside because we loved the country. our friendship started on a low side, like an i.p.o. that traded under water but now it's going in the right direction. we had a great time on stage. i think he was very candid on stage and very candid during the week. so i was happy he was there. i hope he accepts my reinvitation for next may. >> one thing that you talked about with him at this conference was immigration policy, and specifically child

separation, which many people view as something he has been a key architect of. here is how he described what was going on as that policy unfolded. take a look. >> jeff sessions makes that decision, has an immediate impact on dhs who does the policing on the border, and then they turn the families, particularly the children over to health and human services. and neither one of those organizations were ready. they were surprised by the decision by the statement, and then on top of that, to prepare the american public through the communications channels to make them understand what was about to happen. >> it really sounds like he's trying to pass the buck there. >> i read that a little bit differently. i think he's trying to spread responsibility more than pass the buck. i think he owns a part of that buck but i think what he was really trying to say, if you listen to the whole interview, was that there was a lot of moving pieces inside the government.

so when one string gets pulled in one direction, it has a direct impact on other governmental agencies and other governmental departments. so i think they were all admitting that mistakes -- >> sure. we're talking about little kids here. >> i think he admitted that there were mistakes made if you listen to the entire interview. you can go to salt.org and listen to the entire interview. i think he was suggesting yes, mistakes were made when one string got pulled over here, it necessitated other things to happen in a certain way. he also points out when they pulled that string they were following the law. so what needs to happen the law needs to get changed. i don't think he shirked responsibility there. i don't think anybody likes that policy and the president has stated publically many times they're trying to reverse that policy and put the children with their families to the best that they're capable of doing. you know, i came out very early

and spoke against that, kasie, i'm not sitting here apologizing for that, i think general kelly was explaining what was happening. >> our reporting show that there was still dozens of children separated from their families, may take years to reunite. >> it's a tragedy, kasie, we agree on that. >> let me ask you about how the president is approaching congress. we are potentially heading toward -- we are in the middle of a a constitutional show down, democrats are calling it a constitutional crisis. is it a constitutional crisis? >> i went to law school, took konsz tugsal law. i don't see it today as a constitutional crisis but i think both sides should be super careful. why put high pressuthis much st system. the constitution dictates the congress has subpoena power so i

think if people around the president decide not to abide by the subpoena power you are tipping things closer to a constitutional crisis. that will get resolved in the supreme court. it will be very hard for me to believe that even conservative judges originalists related to the constitution would revoke the subpoena power of the congress. so the flip side is, is the congress using that subpoena power appropriately or are they just using it for political purposes? >> do you think they are? do you think they're using it appropriately? >> in some cases i think they are. in other cases i don't. if i can say, i think in the case of don junior, he's a private citizen. i think there was no indictment in the mueller report related to him. i read through the mueller report, it's pretty detailed on what don junior did, and frankly i think it would be inappropriate to subpoena him and bring him before the congress. >> what does he have to hide from the senate intelligence committee? >> i don't think he has anything to hide. >> so why not come ply? it's a subpoena from a

republican committee chairman in the senate? >> i understand that. they're drawing a line in the sand saying it's an abuse of power. if he ultimately decides to comply you don't have a constitutional crisis. i know right now the decision looks like he's not going to. but that's happened in the past when people say i'm not going to comply and then they show up. sam nunberg was an example of that, he said he wasn't going to comply and then he shows up. i don't like the weaponization of the powers of congress -- >> if they subpoenaed you, would you show up? >> yes. listen, i passed the bar in the state of new york. i don't practice but i understand the laws very well. >> you'd like to keep your law license? >> i'm sorry? >> you'd like to keep your law license. >> yeah, i'm a money manager, my law license is in retirement. but if i was a barred lawyer and

i said, hey, i'm not coming to a subpoena, my guess is i would get disbashed or come close to getting disbarred unless i had some ridiculously substantial reason. i don't like it, i would like both sides to dial it down. anthony scaramucci, who knew one day you were going to be on television telling us all to dial it down. >> now you know. see that, kasie, now you know. >> thank you very much, sir. appreciate your time. in week hundreds of former prosecutors concluded the president would have been charged with obstruction if he were anyone but the president. coming back, congress tries to get robert mueller to answer questions directly in public. congressman david cicilline joins me next. man david cicilli joins me next. until i almost lo. my doctors again ordered me to take aspirin, and i do. be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. listen to the doctor. take it seriously.

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i think the first priority has to be get mueller before the congress and the american people. >> are you convinced that's going to happen? >> i am convinced that's going to happen. the american people have every right to hear what the man who did the investigation has to say. we know we can't rely on the attorney general, the man who misrepresented his conclusions. so he is going to testify. yes, it's true these additional acts of obstruction, the president having obstructed the investigation, and now congress, does add weight to impeachment. >> democrats are not letting up on their push to get mueller to

testify before congress. this week jerry nadler said the special counsel will appear for a hearing at some point, though the date is uncertain. and he'll issue a subpoena if necessary. joining me now democratic congressman david cicilline, sir it's great to have you on the program. >> happy mother's day to all the moms watching. >> indeed, happy mother's day. sir, are you convinced that robert mueller is going to testify before congress? >> i certainly hope so. i know the judiciary committee is in conversations with mr. mueller. it will not happen next week. i think the chairman has said that. but our hope and expectation is that mr. mueller will come before the committee, hopefully voluntarily, but if not as the chairman said by way of issuance of a subpoena. but congress and the american people must hear from the special counsel so he can walk the committee and the american people through the findings in his report, answer questions

about the context, clarifications, judgments he made but i think it's important he come before the committee. >> who's to say he would comply with a subpoena? are you convinced robert mueller would comply with a subpoena from the committee? >> yes, i am. i think mr. mueller is a person of extraordinary integrity, who under took this investigation on behalf of the american people, i think he has never forgotten this was about an attack by a foreign adversary on our democracy. he found evidence of contact between the trump campaign and russia and wikileaks, 140 or so contacts and the trump campaign welcomed the assistance of the russians because they knew they would benefit from it electorally. and they detailed ten instances of obstruction of justice by the president in an effort to stop, impede or end this investigation. i think mr. mueller has a responsibility to walk the american people through his findings. i think he's a person of great integrity and he will come

before the committee. originally the president said it was up to barr, then he wasn't, and then it was up to the attorney general but in the end i think it's up to mr. mueller to comply with the subpoena. >> what's the hold up? is it the department of justice, is it mr. barr, the white house? >> the president initially said it's up to the attorney general. the attorney general said under oath he had no objection to mr. mueller coming before the committee. and then the president changed his mind and tweeted out mr. mueller shouldn't appear. i don't think it's up to the president. i think it's up to robert mueller to comply with the subpoena. >> why is mr. mueller still on the payroll at the justice department? does that concern you as part of the conversation? >> we don't know for sure the reason but we can assume he's tying up loose ends and completing work. i think the expectation is he'll leave the department of justice shortly. and when he's not an employee of the department of justice that does change the calculation, the

president will have less of an ability to control the process. every witness is subject to a subpoena, including mr. mueller, if he doesn't come voluntarily, the committee is ready to issue a subpoena. >> the talk this week has ratcheted it up with your colleagues saying it's a constitutional crisis. one of your colleagues said trump is the best argument for impeachment that there is. do you think that democrats should be moving closer to holding impeachment hearings based on the administration's most recent conduct? >> i think there's no question that this is a constitutional crisis. this is unprecedented conduct by the president of the united states to impede oversight. it's not oversight related 209 mueller report, it's to the separation of children -- >> does all of that rise to the level of impeachment? >> for sure it can easily come a

point where the president's conduct in preventing congress from preventing oversight in and of itself constitutes impeachment. i don't know that we're there yet. i think every day that the president attempts to -- again, it's not stone wall the congress, it's stone walling the american people. we're there trying to get the facts and the truth and show no one is above the law. this is a stone walling and cover up and obstruction of the american people. we're going to issue subpoenas and attempt to get compliance with them. but there may come a day this in and of itself is a separate basis to begin impeachment, we're not there yet, we have a process to follow. but the question you have to ask yourself is why is the president so afraid for congress to conduct oversight and bring

witnesses before the committee so the american people can hear from them. >> nancy pelosi the house speaker said this week she believes the president is goading house democrats towards impeachment. is that what's going on here? >> well, i heard the speaker say that. look, i think the speaker has also said, and i agree strongly with this, we should never proceed with impeachment for political reasons, we should never refuse to proceed with impeachment for political reasons. we have to follow the evidence and the facts. we're still in the evidence collecting mode. so i think we're going to make judgments where they're based on the evidence we see -- >> you're going to in evidence collecting mode until november 2020? or move into the next phase before that? >> we have a number of mechanisms to compel compliance with our subpoenas and that process. we're not going to allow the president and his team to delay until the next election. we have a number of tools a at our disposal to compel compliance. we'll get the court issues

quickly. and that will compel the president. >> david cicilline, thank you for your time. i'll see you on the hill later this week. when we return, it's a big week on the stage, and the economic adviser admits the tariff battle is likely to hurt chinese and american consumers alike. t chinese and american consumers alike. just listen. (vo) there's so much we want to show her. we needed a car that would last long enough to see it all. (avo) subaru outback. ninety eight percent are still on the road after 10 years. come on mom, let's go!

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a lot of folks say when are we really going to get tough on russia? how much of the mueller report is going to come into the conversations that you have in the coming days. >> oh, that's crazy talk. that's absolute crazy talk. and i've heard it. i've heard it from the previous administration. they say oh, we're not talk on russia. i only wish they would have stopped the election interference. i only wish they would have put global magazinitsky on some of bad actors. i only wish they wouldn't have gutted the defense budget to the great benefit of vladimir putin. we have put real money into our defense department. vladimir putin can't possibly think that's a good thing for him. they got a defense budget. the actions that administration take i would put up against any in terms of our seriousness in terms of pushing back on russia and raising costs for them. we can do that at the same time we have conversations with them and see if there are places we can find to work together. >> that's secretary of state

mike pompeo in a new interview with cnbc's hadley gambel ahead of his meeting with russian president vladimir putin. also this week, the president hosts far right hungarian prime minister victor orban who last met with a president at the white house 20 years ago. calling him a state-of-the-art ought kratt as his government erodes hungary's freedoms. in the foreground is the unresolved trade dispute with china. >> it's not china that pays tariffs. it's the american importers, the american companies that pay what in effect is a tax increase, and oftentimes passes it on to u.s. consumers. >> fair enough, in fact both sides will pay. >> it's a tariffs on goods coming into the country. the chinese aren't paying. >> no, but the chinese will suffer gdp losses and so forth with respect to a diminishing export market and goods that they may need for their own -- >> i understand that.

but the president said china, it pays the tariffs. they may suffer consequences, but it's u.s. businesses and u.s. consumers who pay, correct? >> yes, to some extent. i don't disagree with that. again, both sides -- both sides will suffer on this. >> mack orman, it's -- i find it to be rather stunning to make larry kudlow make these arguments considering what the party has said in the past. >> the 18 months before election, i have a bridge to tell you. they will not let that happen. that's the same reason infrastructure won't get done. let's also pull back for a second. myth was very anniversaryial to china. even chuck schumer earlier this week praised part of trump's tough stand on china. that's broadly popular. but in the short-term he needs to calm the markets and make sure they don't go haywire. and as kudlow was referring to, in the long-term this cannot affect the economy in 2020. trump's one big play is the

economy remaining strong. if it lags because of his signature achievement, that's a huge problem. >> sheryl, how concerned are republicans on the hill about this? >> i think republicans are concerned about it, and you're going to see it play out in the elections, especially in the form states where trump has been very popular. the big question is how long will those farmers stick with president trump. on china, larry kudlow is saying something that frankly a lot of people already know, which is that the american consumer pays there was a study earlier this year from ucla showing that washing machine prices have gone up 12% as a result of the president's tariffs. they're subject to tariffs. not only that, dryer prices have also gone up. consumers are feeling the pinch here, and that is not good for republicans who are running for reelection and who have to stand by this president. >> although, phil, when should point out the president is tweeting in fact this evening about china, saying that they are dreaming that sleepy joe gets elected.

talking about joe biden. i assume that refers to the comments he made about china not necessarily being one of our competitors. >> well, and it refers even more generally to trump's view that the obama administration and democrats overall have been weak when it comes to china not willing to take the same adversarial stance that this president is taking. it's interesting that he keeps tweeting about biden, by the way. but i guess that's another conversation. we should keep in mind that this whole trade dispute with china is going on at the same time that the president is facing three other foreign policy crises in venezuela, iran, in north carolina. he is sort of all over the map making these gambits that are not only economically dangerous for this country, but risk a security threat as well. he is assuring people he has everything under control, but as sheryl was just saying, consumers are already feeling the heat from these tariffs. >> and also, that's where biden has an advantage over democratic candidates, because biden has very deep relationships

throughout the world with heads of state around the world. >> right. >> and to the extent that he can portray trump as a destabilizing force or someone who is not able to manage all these crises, that's a thread that biden will want to inject or play in the campaign. >> it could certainly play in his favor. matt gorman, thank you for being here. thank you also to your mother on this mother's day. >> yes. >> for attending our show. she has been in the audience. happy mother's day to matt's mom. sheryl solberg, thank you to you, as well as happy mother's day to all the other moms. with such a big field of presidential candidates, you would be surprised if marianne williamson is not on your radar. plus, she was a covert cia agent and her identity was leaked as political payback against her husband. now valerie blame is running for congress, as the streak of women running for office continues. "kasie dc" back after this.

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president trump shows no signs of backing off his trade war with china. >> after negotiators faileded to reach a deal. >> we're going to continue the talks. >> i don't think he has a long-term strategy for this. >> he is willing to say no if they don't follow through. >> it's not china that pays tariffs. it's the american importers. >> in fact both sides will pay. >> the president is playing a negotiating battle with the chinese. >> i think it puts us in a

weaker position. >> do you expect china to retaliate? >> yeah, i reckon they will. >> these are not my disagreements. >> the president has china with him on cuba. >> okay. >> the white house appears to be betting that zone walling the congress will not hurt the president politically. >> democrats say the country faces a constitutional crisis. >> we are looking at -- >> constitutional crisis. >> crisis. >> a constitutional crisis. >> what melodramatic nonsense. the democrats are more interested in subpoenas than solutions. >> no question that it is case closed. >> the trump administration has decided to say a blanket no. >> democrats are the winning goading the president. >> this is a time that the country wants us to move forward. >> i think you can walk and chew gum. >> chewing gum and poking someone in the eye. you can't do that at the same time, and let's just say the president is the poker in chief. >> welcome to the second hour of "kasie dc." joining me here on set a member of the house oversight committee and co-chair of bernie sanders's

presidential campaign, democratic congressman ro khanna of california. "washington post" white house bureau chief and msnbc political analyst philip rucker, campaign director for the center of american progress action fund juanita tolliver, and jackie alemany. in realtime and full public view, congress and the white house are testing the limits of their power. phil and jackie's colleagues at "the washington post" report that president trump and his allies are working to block more than 20 separate investigations by democrats into his actions as president, his personal finances, and his administration's policies. house democrats say the trump administration has failed to respond to or comply with at least 79 requests for documents or other information. the president is blocking aides from testifying, refusing entire document requests from some committees, filing lawsuits against corporations to bar them from responding to subpoenas, and asserting executive privilege to keep information

about the special counsel's russia investigation out of public view. and one of the points that the piece makes is that some congressional experts fear the strategy could undermine the institutional power of congress for years to come. congressman khanna, what is the strategy here for democrats as you simply watch the president refuse request after request after request and subpoena after subpoena? >> kasie, it's an assault on the idea of separation of powers. look, every administration pushes back against congress. that's normal and you have these fights. but no administration denies every single request. that's what's going on here. they are simply refusing to recognize congress' role of oversight. there is only one thing we can do, and that's the courts. >> is there a risk there? what is the kind of thinking behind the scenes as to how to approach that without getting a court decision that stops you in your tracks? >> well, i think the courts will rule clearly for us, because the law is clear. unless there is national

security at stake, when there are issues of obstruction or corrupt action in the executive branch, the congress has clear ability to get these documents. and i think courts are ruling expeditiously. i think we had the court in d.c. say they aren't going to stonewall. i expect that the courts will rule for us, and they'll rule expeditiously. >> juanita, you kind of worked in the center for american progress which is very in touch with the base of the democratic party. what is your view of how democrats in congress are kind of going about this and whether they should be more aggressive than perhaps they're being? >> i mean, democrats in congress are operating off the mandate in which they retook the house from voters overwhelmingly supporting democrats in the midterms in 2018. and so they're actually really doing a great job of conducting that oversight. of course there is tension on how far to go, but i think recent polling showed that a lot of democratic voters really want to wait for additional evidence. they want the oversight to run its course. and so i think it's really falling in line with what we've seen from speaker pelosi and

democratic leadership on congress that hey, steady the course. let's tow that line because we're not going to fall into the trap that trump wants us to by pulling the ultimate card of impeople. . >> jackie, the president said this week that the president is trying to goad democrats into impeachment. but at the same time they seem to be moving the line a little bit closer and closer. >> that's exactly rite. over the past few weeks we've seen pelosi's position evolve here. she was pretty conservative at first, and now she is using terms like self-impeach. and goading. but if you recognize that language puts the action back on the president. she is hesitant. there is a frustration among democrats. i'm sure you can speak better to that than i can, but there is clearly an issue enforcement mechanisms working here. and, you know, at the end of the day, this is a fight that the president wants to be having. he'd much rather be talk about fighting these oversight battles than talking about the crises going on in venezuela, china, north korea, iran, and russia.

>> is that -- is that sort of the thinking behind the scenes here, phil, that this is good ground for the president to be on to solidify his base? >> absolutely. because when make himself the victim and the persecuted, and he can argue that the democrats are reaching beyond what is reasonable in the congress to investigate him and to try to force him out of office somehow. >> we are losing our light here is in our studio. sorry, phil. we didn't mean to interrupt you. i think we're still on the air. but to all of our viewers who are now watching us in the dark, i sincerely apologize. all right. i think we're back. so we'll keep going. i know. better look out. maybe there is dragons outside the studio somewhere. i'm so sorry you were interrupted. please continue. >> one thing we should really keep in mind, though, is the scope and breadth of these investigation. there are 20 investigations. it's not just about russia and obstruction of justice and interference in the election, but it's looking into the security clearance process at the white house. how is it that jared kushner and

ivanka trump got their security clearances despite the objections of career staff? it's looking into the president's personal finances, his tax returns. who does he owe money to? where is that money coming from. these are accountability measures that were missing in the first two years of the administration because the republicans controlled both houses of congress. and the democrats are trying to catch up. >> congressman, how far would you say this line is moving? is your caucus in general when you guys get together behind the scenes -- nancy pelosi has her finger on the pulse of that. >> she does. >> unlike anyone. and to hear her moving in this direction tells me there is something building inside your caucus. how strong is it at this point? >> well, there is greater and greater frustration. there was first frustration when the ten counts of obstruction were detailed. then there is frustration when the president refuses to comply with anything and is basically insulting members of congress and our constitutional duty. but new hampshire is very clear. the speaker believes we need to

have public sentiment with us, and we are to make that case. and she will move when public sendment moves. she quotes abraham lincoln all the time. public sentiment is everything. anyone who knows her knows how she is looking at this. she wants to build a case and then she is going to see where public sentiment. >> jackie, i know you look at the polling when you put together your newsletter and all that public sentiment has not moved towards favor of impeachment. >> no, it hadn't. and i didn't have senator s lik senator sanders saying to voters when we're talking about mueller, we're when talking about all of these oversight pushes, we're not talking about health care and issues that affect the american people on a consistent basis. i think speaker pelosi does realize that the more time everyone is spending, the more air time everyone is spending on talking about these fights feeds into what the president is talking about, it helps distract from issues of health care. >> trade, tax issues of

potentially repealing the president's tax bill. >> we get that bombshell "new york times" report on the president's finances. the push for more details is also going on. >> in his mind, he is wildly successful. that's part of his branding. is to be bigger than life. by any reasonable definition, he is successful. he is the president of the united states. he owns a bunch of golf courses that are a lot of fun to play. so the american people figure out about what they want to believe or not believe about donald trump and his marketing. >> on tuesday, a federal judge is expected to rule on whether the president can put a stop to a house subpoena demanding financial records from his personal accounting firm. and the ways and means committee issued subpoenas friday to treasury secretary steve mnuchin and irs commissioner charles rettig by this coming friday. over the weekend the president reflected on the political optics of it all quoting i won

the 2016 election partially based on no tax returns and the voters don't care making it a part of the 2020 election. here is what the irs commissioner said one month ago. >> there is no rule that would prohibit the release of a tax return because it's under audit. >> i'm not aware of such a rule. and i believe i've answered that. >> and let's just be clear in terms of fact checking the president, juanita. first of all, presidents are audited regularly. and yet we still see tax returns from past residents and of course the irs commissioner did some fact checking for us there saying there is nothing preventing this. but at the same time, it doesn't necessarily seem as those democrats have a clear path forward to actually getting these released. >> well, i think the clear path forward is what they're doing already, issue the subpoena, make the request. because what they've done now is looped in the irs commissioner who is not beholden to trump the way mnuchin is. so is really calling on people

further down the chain of command. hey, are you really going to put yourself on the line, put your future on the line to protect a president who is hiding something at this point. and folks have reason to believe. and i think also in terms of public opinion on this, in polls over the last four to six weeks, there is shown that the majority of americans do believe that trump should release his tax returns. i think democrats have that going in their favor too. >> phil, what of these is the most dangerous for the president? is democrats going after his tax returns the biggest nonrussia problem that he has coming from the hill or not? >> you know, it might be the most embarrassing problem for him so far as if the returns from the more recent years show that the ten-year span that "the new york times" reported on, it would show that the president is not as rich as he says he is, and that he had a lot of losses and is not the grand golden success that he has pitched himself to the american people as. but i don't know that that's politically that dangerous for him. if i were president trump i would be much more concerned

about people like don mcgahn coming in to an open forum and testifying on any number of issues where the president could be implicated, and not only bad behavior, but obstruction of justice or other criminal behavior. >> the kicker of the new york report saying how he said it was difficult to make money in real estate. but his father never lost any money except when he investeds in his son. phil rucker, thanks so much for being here. we're sorry again about the lights. everyone else is going to stay with us. you have heard this week calls to break up facebook, even from one of the company's founders. now it is turning into a wedge for 2020 candidates in what has been a pretty tame election cycle just got a little more heated. plus, her identity as a covert cia agent was leaked during the bush administration to settle a political score against her husband. now valerie plame is running for congress. she joins me live ahead on "kasie dc."

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the battle over big tech's accountability problem is now spilling into the presidential race and pitting 2020 democrats against each other. senator cory booker is making clear he doesn't think breaking up tech giants, which elizabeth warren has proposed, the solution. but it's how booker describes his disagreement with warren's proposal that turned heads. >> i don't think that a president should be running around pointing at companies at companies and say breaking them up without any kind of process here. it's not me and my own personal

opinion about going after folks. that sounds like a donald trump thing to say. i'm going to break up you guys. no. we need to create systems and proce processes. >> you just compared elizabeth warren to donald trump? >> i most certainly did not. >> again, let her discuss and debate her positions. i'm telling you right now, we do not need a president that is going to use their own personal beliefs and tell you which companies we're going break up. well need a president who is going to enforce antitrust laws in this country. >> the call to reduce the power of big tech grew loud their week when facebook co-founder chris hughes told it quote, dangerous. hughes wrote in an op eed that the government must break up facebook's monopoly. and this morning senator kamala harris was also asked to weigh in. >> there is no question in my mind that there needs to be serious regulation, and that has not been happening there needs to be more oversight that has not been happening. >> you think they should be

broken up? >> i think we have to seriously take a look at that, yes. >> quite some comments from cory booker. congressman, i know you represent silicon valley. i want to get your take on this in a minute. but jackie, just to kind of look at this from the lens of cory booker telling elizabeth warren trumpian in her kind of attack on this on facebook. at the same time, it isn't just any random company that she might have a personal vendetta against. >> no, it's not. and this has been elizabeth warren's pretty consistent position. it is really interesting as the campaign progresses to finally see positions, different positions between candidates and n the democratic party differentiating from themselves. cory booker sort of, you know, appearing to take actually the sides of corporations a little bit more than elizabeth warren, was i think is a standpoint that you could have surmised from their positions in congress. but, you know, they both are part of a congress that has failed really to regulate facebook over the last few

years, and i think both of them really need to grab well their role in that. france just finished their review in which the government conducted a six-month review internally in facebook overseeing how their regulatory processes work and provided a report which zuckerberg praised. i don't think these two things, breaking up facebook and increasing regulation are necessarily mutually exclusive. >> congressman, to that point about congress, i mean, do you think that the united states congress is equipped to regulate these big tech companies, specifically facebook? are they capable of it? >> we need to have more technology and knowledge. but we need to look to the microsoft case. i think that was an example that worked, that government went after microsoft. they said you couldn't tie internet explorer to windows. if you had done that -- >> we would all have to use internet explorer and our lives would be harder. >> google would never have emerged. but it went to the d.c. circuit, and the d.c. it is get said you don't have break them up.

you need to make sure they can't do bad mergers, they can't be privileging their own platform. i do think elizabeth warren has added a lot to the debate. she has called for stronger, thoughtful regulation. the question is how do we get there. and i think the microsoft case offers the paradigm. >> i'm going to put you a little bit on the spot here. >> sure. >> i'm not intimately familiar with where bernie sanders stands on this question. but you are co-chair of his campaign where. does he fall on the spectrum of these 2020 candidates? >> i haven't asked him specifically. he usually focuses on wall street and defense contractors and airline industries. i mean, i don't know his act position on this. but i do know when he talks about technology, he often talks about how do we get universal broad band, how do we get technology into rural communities and jobs there. but you would have to ask him or his campaign. >> well you are his campaign. that's why i'm asking you. >> i'm one of his co-chairs. i don't want to misrepresent his nuanced view on this without talking to him about it. >> when it comes to the idea of breaking up facebook, chris

hughes really turned heads. to explore your microsoft analogy a little further, you're talking about a centralization of power that is much different from a company that is selling computers and softwares to consumers, right? you're instead talking about the fact that because all these people are using this platform, the platform itself has immense power. how do you actually -- you must have to take steps that are slightly different than what happened in the microsoft case to actually make it work. >> well, i think if you had scrutiny on mergers, right, i thought they shouldn't have been allowed to acquire instagram. i thought they shouldn't have been allowed to acquire what's app. if you have different social media platforms, then you a choice. i don't think it's the end of the world if someone doesn't use facebook. it would be the end of the world if someone didn't have access to the internet. that's why facebook is a utility. it's not like water or electricity. >> for a lot of small businesses it does serve a purpose like a utility does. >> well, thing have to be regulations so that they shouldn't be able to privilege their own products, they shouldn't be able to bully

vendors. >> they certainly bully the news industry in some cases. >> i think that should be looked at. but what we have to do is have a fact-based investigation and then have thoughtful regulation on privacy, on making sure that they're not privileging their platform, on making sure they're not getting a favorable deal against vendors. but here is -- you say well, why not just break them up? there are two reasons. one you don't want china, albie live baba, and baidu to become the social platforms around the world. there is some competition there. >> do you think facebook views itself as fundamentally american? sometimes when i talk to my sources who work there, they view themselves more as a global company than an american one. how important is that global identity to mark zuckerberg? >> i think they know they are an american company because why have never succeeded under chinese or european laws. it is the first amendment and sec 230 that allowed of these companies to emerge. they aren't censored. they have a much more competitive environment than europe allows. i think they understand that their success, they owed it to

america and they want to make sure some of those values continue. now, do they need to be more accountable? absolutely. they need to do a better job to prevent interference from foreign actors. they need to do a better job to create jobs. they need to hire more people of color. it's dismal what the hiring is of african americans, african american women. so there are a lot of issues we can talk about. but we also should look at their success. the me too movement wouldn't have happened in the extent it did without facebook. black lives matter used facebook. barack obama, bernie sanders, they all use facebook. you and josh hawley, the senator from missouri criticizing twitter saying we don't need it. well, why don't you get off the platforms then? of course the social media platforms have been critical to democracy. we need to make sure they're doing it in a positive way. >> it seems like the question whether they have fundamentally, juanita, undermined democracy by empowering authoritarians and

misinformation. >> i think that's exactly right. with 2020 election coming up, all sorts of alarm bells are going off. will our election be interfered in through this platform of facebook, something that i think there has been a lot of evidence of. so how are user data being protected? how are consumers being protected, folks like you and me who use these platforms? i think the other thing here is these candidates, while they're on a spectrum, still belief in those same fundamental components, protect consumer data, ensure innovation in the industry and make sure this platform is working for the american good. >> all right. congressman ro khanna, thank you very much for coming on. it was very interesting to have this particular conversation with you. coming up, she could earn a spot on the 20 tent debate stage over some high profile washington democrats after reaching the threshold for donors. author turned presidential candidate marianne williamson joins me live, coming up next.

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presidential candidate marianne williamson. she is the author of the book "a politics of love: a manned book for a new american revolution." welcome to "kasie dc." thank you so much for being here. >> thank you so much for having me. >> so you have hit 65,000 donor. >> donor, right. >> and yet we haven't seen you really make a mark quite yet in the polling. >> well, it's kind of hard when the polls just don't mention your name. >> i hear you on that, for sure. but help explain to people, you know. 65,000 people is a lot of people who have heard of you and thought highly enough of you to write you a check of some kind. >> right. >> what it is that they are responding to? who are the people that want to see marianne williamson be in this presidential race? >> well, i'm not speaking toward demographic. that's the kind of politics that i actually am not that fond of. i'm not speaking to blacks or to whites or to jews or the muslims or christians or to american or straight. i'm talking to the american people. i think the campaign should be about a deeply american

conversation. i think those of us on the left and the right, i think we're in every socio-economic group, every ethnicity and religion. people are very concerned about the deep swerve our country has made away from our deep moral values, our spiritual values, our democratic values and our humanitarian values. that's not of itself either a right or a left issue. and i believe that many people are hungry for a deeper conversation. they know that a deeper conversation has to exist than the one that so often dominates our traditional political establishment. >> you mentioned demographics in politics. someone else in the field, pete buttigieg was asked about this weekend, had an interesting answer that is getting some criticism. but take a look and then we'll talk about it. >> it is true that each of us could see in our own identity all the reasons we're misunderstood, and then say you don't understand me because you haven't walked in my shoes. what i worry about are the very real walls being put up between us as we get divided and carved up. walls going up within the

working class, within communities, even within families. and what every gay person has in common with every excluded person of any kind is knowing what it's like to see a wall between you and the rest of the world and wonder what it's like on the other side. >> do you agree with mayor buttigieg's comment there's? do you think both sides are using identity politics in a too divisive way? >> i think the conversation needs to happen is deeper than that. i believe one of the first principles of the united states is unity in diversity. on one hand, our diversity is part of our richness. it's exciting that we don't all think the same way. it's exciting that we don't all pray the same way. it's exciting that we don't all come from the same kind of ethnic group or corner of our society. that's part of the richness of the united states. but underlying that, there are common principles to which we are all to pledge fealty, as it were. those are the places where we are all americans and must have in common. it is those prince p.m.s that we have lost our emotional

psychological bonding to, that all men are created equal, that god gave unalienable rights to all men, pursuit of happiness, these things, the idea of life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness that governments were established and instituted to secure those rights. and lincoln's comment of a government of the people, by the people and for the people shall not perish from the earth. we're like a company that has forgotten its mission statement. so i think all americans owe it on one hand to honor our own ethnic identity. i'm a woman. i'm a jew. there are things about me that are different perhaps than about someone else. but we are all american. i feel like a political campaign is like a family meeting. i once lived in a house a long time ago. everybody had their different lives, but we all had to come together to talk about what was going to happen if the garbage truck was going to come on tuesday instead of wednesday, for there was a leak in the roof or if something was happening on the cement outside on the sidewalk that to me is what a

campaign should be, a place where we all come together to think about the common issues that confront our country. and that's what i'm doing with our campaign. >> why are you qualified to be president? >> i'm qualified to be president because for the last 35 years, i have worked very up close and personal with people. my ear is deeply to the ground of what's happening in this country. working with people, helping them to navigate crises in their live, leaving from crisis to transformation. all a country is a collection of individuals. a lot of the crises that i've dealt with people have had to do with their having to navigate damage done by what i perceive to be as an irresponsible political establishment. i understand about political expertise. but i think political expertise at this point should include wisdom. and when your political establishment that claims to be so expert, i challenge the idea that those whose careers have been entrenched in a system whose limitations have driven us into a ditch are the only people we should consider qualified to drive us out of the ditch. there is different kinds of

experience. experienced politicians took us into vietnam. experienced politicians took us into iraq. i think that there is a level of wisdom, experience, understanding of people, understanding of how the world works. i understand how the world works. and one of the things i understand about how the world works is how much what's wrong in the world is how washington works. >> for example, how would you handle bashar al assad in syria? >> well, he is not a good man, is he? but the issue for us is whether or not we are removing those troops. so president trump says i'm going to bring them all home. and within days, of course, the defense department had walked that back. you can't just leave like that, the issues having to do with the kurds who we would be betraying if we left like that. i understand as much as everybody is we want to bring troops home. but this is what i find experienced politicians talking. this is how superficial that conversation. some of them are saying let's bring them home. some of them are saying well, if we stay i want to know what our exit plan is. i want to talk about the united states reclaiming its moral authority as an international

leader. >> why are we in syria in your view? >> we are in syria because there were serious issues about isis, serious issues i believe the president -- i do think that president obama should have kept to his word about the red line when he said that. and now at this point, i understand in syria, i also understand in afghanistan that there are reasons why we are in a place. and i also understand that leaving that place is not necessarily simple. for instance, in afghanistan, everybody says would you leave afghanistan or would you stay in afghanistan? my problem with the conversation about afghanistan is that on one hand, we're having a conversation with the taliban. the taliban says that they won't have anything to do to allow the afghani government to be a part of that. so we're told that the conversation is if we remove our troops, will they promise that they will not allow it to be a hotbed for al qaeda. my conversation is about the women of afghanistan, and i wouldn't do anything until first

i met with some women of afghanistan and asked them their feelings. because i'm very aware of the barbarism of the taliban and their treatment of women. >> back to politics at home, if the democratic national committee does not ultimately -- they could cut you off the debate stage if they have more than 20 candidates who meet your donor threshold. what would you say to them in that event? >> they're going to create another hoop and i'm going jump through another hoop. i think the american people should decide who they can listen to. these kind of shenanigans and dramas actually take the candidates' times, not just mine, but all candidates. it takes time that we could be talking to the american people about issues. but you know, i got the 200 or more in 41 states. we got the 65,000. and i feel very confident that whatever comes next, the polling, et cetera, i feel i have a conversation that is an important one. i think a lot of people want to hear it. and i'm going to do everything possible with all those people to make sure i get a chance to speak my word, have my campaign and offer my option to the

american people. >> well, we certainly have seen many unexpected things happen in politics. >> trump is president. >> that in fact is true. marianne williamson, thank you so much for coming on tonight. >> thank you. >> it's been great to have you. >> thank you. >> when we return, i'm joined live by valerie plame, the former cia agent who is now running for congress in new mexico. how to cover almost anything. even rooftop parking. strange forces at work? only if you're referring to gravity-and we covered it. talk to farmers. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ you won't find relief here. congestion and pressure? go to the pharmacy counter for powerful claritin-d. while the leading allergy spray only relieves 6 symptoms, claritin-d relieves 8, including sinus congestion and pressure. claritin-d relieves more.

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welcome back. former cia officer valerie plame, whose identity was leaked

in a political scandal during the george w. bush administration, is looking to start a new chapter in service to her country. she announced this week she is running for congress in new mexico has a democrat, attempting to claim a seat being vacated by ben lujan. valerie joins me now. thank you so much for being here. >> thank you. happy mother's day, kasie. >> and you as well. why run for congress? >> well, this is my home, and maybe it sounds a little corny, but i really look forward to the opportunity of perhaps serving my country again. the last time it got curtailed before i was quite ready, and this opportunity opened up, and as you know, those things happen often. my twins have gone off to college, and i'm ready to start a new chapter. and i thought okay, i'm going to try. i just feel that if i didn't do it, i would regret it.

>> what drives you to go -- want to go become to washington after what you experienced in the context of the bush administration? i just have to ask. >> yeah, well, let me be clear. the draw is not washington. the draw -- i have lived all over the world, and northern new mexico is actually the first place that feels like home. we moved here in the aftermath of all that happened of the betrayal of my covert cia identity, moved here in 2007 after i left the cia, after shooter libby was convicted, and we were so warmly welcomed. and this feels like a way perhaps of giving back. i dove into the community in a variety of ways of education and the arts and every way i possibly could, because, again, it feels like home. and the idea to go to washington, which, again, not that appealing, but that's how

you can best represent your community and make sure their voices are heard. >> you spoke to the associated press this past week about the president pardoning scooter libby, who of course was convicted of obstruction of justice and lying after cia officer status was revealed. do you think this pardon that president trump gave to scooter libby is problematic? >> i think it has nothing to do with me. it has nothing to do with scooter libby. it had i believe everything to do with trump showing his cronies, look, you take care of me, i'll take care of you. i'm pretty sure trump really has no idea exactly who scooter libby is or why he should care, but he understood enough for a small group of people, it was a very strong signal. >> while i have you, i have to ask you as well, as you sort of get this congressional run under way. the national review brought back

a tweet that you had posted in september 2017, and you got some criticism for this because the article that you linked to said america's jews are driving america's wars. i know you later backtracked saying you messed up. how much of a campaign issue do you think this is potentially going to be for you? and is there anything you would like to say to correct the record now? >> i would, kasie. i did way more than backtrack. let me be clear. it's not who i am. and it's not what i believe. it was extremely painful. i had not read the whole article all the way through. and when i realized what it was, it was embarrassing and hurtful. so i apologize deeply and sincerely, and i've done it multiple times both privately and publicly. it's -- it was really just a very painful period, but i want

to move forward. that's not who i am. and of course there is always going to be people that no matter what i would say are not going the like me, are going to hate me, are going to twist my words. and i can't do anything about that. but there are many, many others who heard what i said, who heard my apology and understood that it was truly heartfelt. and i'm human, and we all make mistakes, and it was just a doozy, and it was very public. >> as you get this campaign under way, have you spoken with the dnccc, the democratic leadership in washington? have you received any encouragement in your democratic bid from leaders here? >> i have spoken to many people, including the dccc. this is -- i think this race is going to be all about the primary. so they have to be very careful. they are not going to involve

themselves in most cases in a primary. i think the field is going to be very crowded, which i think is good. competition is good. all i can do is run my best race and go go out. as you may know in this district which is vast, it's santa fe and everything north we have hispanic. we have native americans. we have anglo. and i think my job in the coming weeks and months will be to go out and listen with respect what are their concerns? what are their stories? what do they want to convey to me, and how can i then best if given that honor represent them in washington. >> all right. valerie plame. thank you very much. always interesting times in politics. so let us know if you're ever going to be here in washington, come back on the show. thank you. >> i sure will. thank you. coming up, elizabeth warren takes on the opioid epidemic in a state donald trump won by more than 40 points. that's next.

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it's an ongoing public health crisis that has the potential to krau draw consensus across a divided country.

elizabeth warren traveled to west virginia on friday, a small town of less than 400 people. it has been hit especially hard by the opoid crisis. >> anybody in here know someone who has been lost to addiction, who's got a problem? oh, my god. if someone you love came to see you, a brother, a niece, and said, i get it. i need help. if i don't get some help, this is -- none of this is going to work. do you realize that across this country, they would have a less than one in five chance of getting the medical treatment that they need? >> "politico" reports that warren's team was apprehensive about campaigning here where four in five residents went for trump in 2016. but voters there were seen

nodding and at times applauding the senator. >> we're always going to have our trump people here. that's normal for us. but i think that if she will help us get something here done, she brought it to us. for her to come to kermit, west virginia. she brought it to us. >> she has shown up. >> she showed up. >> warren's plan would supply $100 billion giving more funds to cities and counties like kermit with the highest levels of overdoses. our panel is back now. jackie, this is something that the president has talked a lot about. but you can still really see that communities across america are suffering deeply. and, you know, anyone that's willing to come and say, hey, i hear you.

i see your problem, and i'm willing to help you could potentially get somewhere. >> that's exactly right. i mean, the president campaigned on this in places like new hampshire, ohio, west virginia and won a lot of support because of it. a lot of people were struggled in 2016 when this was really bubbling up. if you ask a lot of democratic senators and republican senators on the hill, they will say that a lot of think they of what the white house is pushing forth is window dressing. a lot of what the president has done has been a recreation of the last ditch efforts that the obama administration put forward, but he hasn't enacted a lot of new legislation around this. so i do think that this should be talked about by the president and all of the democratic candidates on a consistent basis as much as possible and actual policy proposals should be put forth rather than just rhetoric of, yes, you know, we see you but now actually what can we do to help you? >> i will say, juanita, the

voter we were talking to there who just said, you know what, she showed up here, elizabeth warren showed up, this is the heart of trump country. it takes bravery for a candidate to walk into a place like that. and not everyone on the democratic side has done it so far. >> not only did it take bravery, but it took a plan. elizabeth warren is a candidate who has strong policy ideas and plans she's rolling out that will be able to impact people's lives. the sheer number of hands that went up when she asked the audience, it's heart-breaking how many of them have a loved one or family member impacted by addiction. and those number of hands went up because these people need help. i think this is a prime example of how a candidate can excel. one by meeting voters where they are and having a plan that will improve the lives of americans because yet again this another broken promise by president trump where he campaigned on it, gave it a lot of mouth and talk but has not done anything. >> all right.

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done a complete 180 on the president. >> chuck, listen, i am a man of convictions and principals. unless he can help me, and then it's new lindsey, who this. >> senator collins, how does it make you feel to see the president just unilaterally doing what he wants? >> chuck, i'll be the first to

admit that some of the things this administration is doing makes me want to shake my head vigorously and wag my finger once. perhaps twice. >> kate mckinnen as lindsey graham, i love it. outstanding. before we go, let's talk about what you are watching in the week ahead. >> so there are a million different things, but what i'm watching is going to happen right off the bat tomorrow. the president is meeting with far right prime minister victor orban who hasn't been invited to the white house since 1998 because of some of his beliefs in terms of pushing for an ethnically hungary. i will be keeping a close eye on it. >> for sure. >> ten seconds, china trade implications. still at war with china as far

as ironing out what's going to happen. tariffs are going up and americans will feel it. >> that is going to do it for us tonight. we will be back with you next week from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. eastern. coming up next, breaking hate, a former white national list helps others escape the life he once new. this is anmsnbc special series. 30 years ago, i embraced hate and perpetrated violence. but when i finally wanted to leave america's white power movement, there was nobody willing to help a confused nazi skinhead like me. >> another 15 seconds. >> today, i'm the guy i needed back then. i help