sell now, you can buy later. >> another day with a loss that has a six in front of it on the dow. greater than 2% losses on the markets. sue, thank you very much. thank you for watching. "deadline: white house" with nicole wallace starts right now. hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in washington d.c. where donald trump may be arming congress with fresh evidence of his willingness to abuse his office. a stunning three-pronged attack on the rule of law from the commander in chief this weekend. donald trump expressing his willingness to use his justice department to investigate a political opponent. trump telling politico, he just might talk to his attorney general about a biden investigation saying, quote, certainly it would be an appropriate thing to speak to him about. but i've not done that as of yet. it could be a very big situation. house intel committee chairman, adam schiff sounded off on that comment. >> and what is so shocking to

me, i served for many years on a democracy commission in the congress where we would partner with parliaments in emerging democracies we would say when you win an election you don't seek to jail the losing side and here the president of the united states is saying it's perfectly okay for him, he has said this before, to go to the attorney general and get them to open an investigation of his rivals. sadly this attorney general has turned out to be so political and partisan and frankly without integrity that he might do it. that adds to the crisis these democratic norms are broken down every day. this comes on rudy giuliani's plan to visit ukraine to meddle in that investigation into the bidens. a trip that's been called off due to the bad press it garnered. but the president willing to ask for help from foreign governments.

and the president using his twitter account to harass a witness in the obstruction of justice investigation. that witness former white house counsel don mcghan he's been subpoenaed by congress and instructed by the white house to defy that subpoena. the president tweeting, i was not going to fire bob mueller and did not fire bob mueller. in fact, he was allowed to finish his report with unprecedented help from the trump administration. actually, lawyer don mcghan had a much better chance of being fired than mueller. never a big fan. and that is where we start today with some of our fair reporter and friends. with us on set, robert costa, ab stoddard, jeremy bash, karine jean-pierre is back, and new york times washington correspondence mike schmidt is with us. it's with your reporting friday

night on this white house's effort to get don mcghan to say the president didn't obstruct justice. why was that so important if they felt the mueller report totally and completely exonerated him? >> what happened here and this demonstrates the advantage the white house had with the justice department. before the report came out, the president's lawyers had a sneak peek, a chance to look at it, and they saw a lot of obstruction stuff and a lot of don mcghan. but what they didn't see was a statement mcgahn had made to investigators, which is that he never thought the president broke the law. now, legally it doesn't matter what don mcghan, a witness, thought. but politically and in keeping the president calm. the president's lawyers thought it would be really great to have mcgahn put out a statement after the report comes out. it would take a lot of the air out of it. and the white house, before it's released goes to mcgahn's lawyer

and asks will they put out this statement. they considered it, then the report came out and they saw all of the obstruction and they thought it would be pretty weird to actually put out such a statement and they didn't and trump got upset. >> so, robert costa, why if you're the president are you now harassing on twitter someone who, if any sort of investigation comes to pass, if impeachment proceedings come to pass on capitol hill, don mcghan will be a witness in the obstruction investigation. >> talking in confidence to president trump it's clear the president believes privately that don mcghan would be central to any congressional case made against him on obstruction. and as capitol hill pursues that testimony, the president politically speaking and legally, is laying out his own terms and framing mcgahn has someone who can't speak to his own intent with regard to the firing of robert mueller or anything that led to discussions about that possibility.

mcgahn's interpretation of intent is everything, that's why he won't issue as mike said through his reporting, doesn't want to issue a blanket statement because the debate inside the white house and the legal community around this case is what did the president actually mean when he took action with don mcghan to say do this or do that with regard to robert mueller. >> i'm not a lawyer, i never met don mcghan but i read the mueller report. five people say what the president intended to do was fire robert mueller, it includes chris christie, reince priebus, five people their testimony is quoted in the mueller report. why is this a debate? it seems like a political debate not a legal question. >> i don't think there's a question the president wanted to get bob mueller removed the same way he wanted jim comey removed. he wanted the heat taken off him, the end of the russia investigation. i think it's amazing in mike's reporting we hear that white house officials carried the request by the president apparently to don mcghan's

lawyer, bill burke. why would white house officials participate unless the president was putting a strong arm on them, participate in an effort to request a witness cover up the fact that a president was unlawfully trying to obstruct the investigation. >> you and i are parents. we recognize patterns. isn't there a pattern of constantly trying to change the story of people that offered testimony? are you really surprised? this is what he did through the whole -- i guess to me what's most stunning what you're inching toward, is that the president was acutely aware of the fact he was not exonerated at all. especially in the obstruction of justice investigation. >> he knew what he did. he knew he tried to obstruct the investigation. the question really is for congress and others to look into is how did he do it? did he use the apparatus of his office? did he use his authority as president? did he improperly ask people to

lie? there are many instances in the mueller report if people take time to look at it and review it, in which the president said go ahead and lie, write a memo to the file that's false. he directed reince priebus to direct k.t. mcfarland to do that. there is going to make great fodder for congressional investigators. >> mike schmidt something you and your colleagues reported on was all of the efforts to get the president to sit for an interview. and some of the analysis at the end of the mueller investigation is that no one had a window into the president's intent. is this reporting from the weekend, the president's tweets attacking don mcghan, saying he was more likely to fire mcgahn that mueller, is he giving us a window into his intent that could damage him in an impeachment proceeding? >> i'm not sure. it's interesting. the president claims he cooperated fully with the investigation. he fully cooperated in the parts

he cooperated with. he didn't sit for the interview. and a central question here was why was he doing what he was doing? why was he pushing mcgahn so hard? i'm not sure the tweets over the weekend answer any of that. i'm not sure it gives us any greater understanding. i think the mueller report has far better understanding of sort of what the president was saying behind the scenes when he took these actions and what he was truly intending to do as the mueller report shows the president wanted to get rid of mueller, despite what he says now. look, at the end of the day, i think it's clear and the president can sense the exposure. the most exposure he may face is on this question of trying to get don mcghan to recant what he said to investigators after it comes out that the president tried to fire mueller he pushes mcgahn to create this fake memo to the file as jeremy was saying. he knows the best way to go about this in a situation like this, public opinion, it's a political question not a legal

question, is to attack, attack, attack. that's what he's done for decades and why would he change now? >> he might change now, robert costa, because he might face impeachment proceedings or the commencement of impeachment proceedings. and it would seem this incident that jeremy and mike talked about, and for weeks before the mueller report came out, you were reporting that the obstruction questions, the conduct that could be construed as criminal obstruction were always the thing that kept white house lawyers up at night. it would seem that that problem has not gone away in terms of the exposure that the president faces should impeachment proceedings commence. >> that's right. because of those hovering problems you have the white house asserting executive privilege about mcgahn's testimony. delaying the idea of him coming to capitol hill and testifying about all these events. when you talk to house democrats they say they can't build an impeachment case at this time until they hear not just from

robert mueller but don mcghan. it's not just political theatre for the house democrats to have there. it's critical to have a face, a name, a voice, a story being told about the intent rather than something people read in the report. >> can i just adhere? >> please. >> one of the things looming over the president is not just whether he's impeached he figures, i think, that's a political fight i'd like that, i'm not going to removed from office by the senate. what's looming is the fact that bob mueller said i'm preserving office because the president out of office is not immune from criminal prosecution. if the president violated the law and obstructed justice in office, he has criminal liability when he leaves. that's why he desperate to discredit don mcghan, a witness against him. >> you bring up a good point. if that's the context the president has to answer from, executive privilege is not going to protect him from don mcghan. >> neither is anything about

nonimpeachment, hearings that don't result in his removal from office. fundamentally, the president faces a bigger threat to his own personal liberty and freedom. we came on the air friday and rudy giuliani's trip to ukraine was on, he was heading there to meddle in two investigations. that trip got some bad press and it's been called off. but this picture of the president harassing on twitter don mcghan, the star witness in the obstruction investigation. a man who managed to thread the needle as mike's reported, was willing to say until the day the mueller report came out that he didn't believe the president had obstructed justice. that the president attacked him on twitter. that rudy was on his way to ukraine. and the president saying to politico that he is going to talk to the attorney general about investigating the bidens. this picture is just stunning. we throw around the words banana

republic. this conduct taken together is really chilling. >> when president trump took office he expected the bummers in the republican party to tamp down his controversial conduct. and then they did initially. and over time they've stopped. and they condone it. you have senator lindsey graham basically saying if i were donald trump jr.'s lawyer, i would tell him don't come back and face a lawful subpoena or cooperate with a bipartisan investigation on a subpoena that a republican signed off on. and so, everyone around the president, who he anticipated would be stopping him, become henchmen. he does what he can get away with. he called on the investigation of michael cohen's father-in-law. he has done all sorts of things that there's been no push back to. so the more he sees he gets away with, the more he pushes. there are no rules. people see a witness tampering

tweet about don mcghan roll their eyes. this idea that biden will be investigated is not news to anyone. i think republicans who are worried about the majority in the senate, not enough good democratic recruits but worried nonetheless could not stomach this rudy trip and it wasn't the democratic response. however biden will be investigated whether it's by corey lewandowski or some band of rookies or by the department of justice, there's no question that the president believes it's appropriate. he's going to tell the voters he was spied on and 2016 and anyone who's going to be the democratic nominee is prepared to face that. >> you reported that the president has sought to use his justice department to investigate hillary clinton, i believe, and jim comey in the past, mike. does he have in attorney general barr, someone who will acquiesce to those questirequests. >> on the rudy giuliani point we spent two and a half years

trying to figure out questions like whether michael cohen was in prague to meet with russians to get dirt, and that was a central sort of question of the mueller investigation of collusion and such. and just the other day the president's lawyer said i'm going to a foreign country to look for the same type of thing. it's just like -- look at how far we've sort of come and sort of -- i guess it's an interesting approach on transparency. >> karine jean-pierre, how far we've come, how far we've devolved. i hope we haven't norm alized any of the conduct we've spent time talking about. i think that they feel like committing crimes in the open was part of their defense strategy when it came to obstruction of justice. they're now engaged in this conduct out in the open. you can get away with it. i agree with ab that biden will be investigated. but there's a huge difference between campaigns engaging in opposition research and

outsourcing said opposition research to ukraine. >> yeah. i would have to say that richard nixon must be blushing right now because the amount of obstruction of justice that's happening just way out there in the open is dumbfounding. i think we have to step back for a second because this has always been donald trump. he ran his business like a mobster, it was all about loyalty to him and he took that into the presidency. so this is really no surprise. and also, when you -- the tweeting that he did this weekend. he tweeted about biden, about mueller, he tweeted about don mcghan, did he tweet about melania once on mother's day, no, not at all. you see where his head is at. there is a danger because the founding fathers anticipated someone like donald trump. they really did. and they built the constitution because they knew that we could potentially get a donald trump. what they didn't anticipate is a branch of government, in particular the senate, led by republicans, who would not hold him accountable.

and that's the danger that we're in. and democrats have to do everything that they can to get mcgahn in front of them. because we need mcgahn, we need mueller. it's time. you have to bring the republic into this conversation or else, because people are not going to read this report. they're just not. so that's the way you get the public in. i do believe they need to start impeachment proceedings because that's another way to get it out there. you can get the grand jury documents. there's so much more that would happen if they were to do that, if they moved forward in the direction. >> i don't know that everyone understands this, jeremy, but it does trigger legals legally, impeachment proceedings, the underlying evidence, presenting and making available other witnesses. i want to play something for all of you that adam schiff said about impeachment. >> here the trump administration has decided to say a blanket no. no to any kind of oversight whatsoever, no witnesses, documents, nothing.

they're stone walling, they want to draw this out as long as possible. we're going to fight it, we are fighting it. we have to. it's true these additional acts of obstruction, obstructing the justice department, now congress, does add weight to impeachment. >> i know the political analysis is his base is conditioned, all this conduct and people in the middle, you know, karine said that -- i think a lot of people are buying and ordering the mueller report. they're all reading it -- >> they are. but i feel like this is a way to really bring people in. it's what, 45% of folks are saying impeach donald trump, we have to get that number up and this is a way to do that. >> obstruction of a behavior does reek of hiding something, guilt. it seems to push against trump's brand of washington and draining

the swamp, i'm not sure there's anyone left who believes that. but schiff seems to have landed on a message that could stick. >> there's always a tussle between the executive branch and congress on issues like witnesses, documents, and executive privilege. that's something that's appropriate we want that between our branchs of government. you're pointing to something very important, which is the constitutional design contemplated what happens if a president goes rogue, what if he shuts down his branch -- in this case his branch of government's ability to cooperate with legitimate oversight. what is congress to do? they can't say, okay, we're good. we can't be in a situation where the only test of whether you're going to testify is whether you're going to be physically dragged there. that can't be the test. >> one point. this is a crisis moment for congress about its own oversight authority. this branch of government in recent years has seen itself d

diminished as a legislative body. they barely cut any deals anymore, barely move legislation. it's functioned as an oversight body. now you have a president in a historic and dramatic way saying no thanks i'm not cooperating on any of the oversight. that's why when i sat down with speaker pelosi, it was somewhat humorous when i asked her, could you hold people in contempt, could you jail people for not complying with congress? they're used to people who deal within executive branch norms, suppose nobody abides by those norms, can the branch of government function? >> that's the million dollar question. everyone is waiting to see how congress answers that question. mike schmidt i'm going to give you the last word. in your recording it's not clear that don mcghan e didn't put out the statement because after seeing the mueller report, he believed the president did

obstruct justice? >> i'm not sure. that's something we would see play out on the hill if mcgahn were to go and testify. he would be asked that. again, legally doesn't mean anything but publicly would give the republicans a lot of cover. if mcgahn was up there laying out the incidents and said, look, i didn't think it was obstruction. that would help the president. obviously the president knows, that's why he was upset about this. he gets the help that mcgahn could give him but there were not nice things that the president said about mcgahn in the report and i don't think that helped convince mcgahn to put the statement out. >> the inverse would be true as well. if he refused to say that, he might refuse to give the help to the democrats. after the break, donald trump's war on the fbi continues with a new attack on director chris wray. and fear mongering from the president about a coupe. and the world on fire as donald trump flails on the world

stage with china, new fears he's inching the u.s. to a conflict with iran. and joe biden stays on message and surges in south carolina. we'll check in with all the 2020 democratic candidates. all those stories coming up. dem. all those stories coming up. i switched to liberty mutual, because they let me customize my insurance. and as a fitness junkie, i customize everything, like my bike, and my calves. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

our justice department and our fbi have to start doing their job and doing it right and doing it now. >> these are the top people at the fbi where you had absolute dirty cops. these were dirty cops. >> when everybody sees what's going on in the justice department -- i always put

justice now with quotes. >> at the top they were not clean, to put it mildly. and what they did to our country was a terrible, terrible thing. >> the president has been attacking the fbi since he's been president, and it looks like he may have landed on a new target in his war on justice. the new leader of the fbi, president tweeting this weekend an attack on chris wray, a life-long republican and his hand picked appointee. he was recommended by chris christie. trump and his tweet quoting fox news commentators and then adding his own color writing quote the fbi has no leadership, the director is protecting the same gang that tried to overthrow the president through an illegal coup. adding wray was apparently recommended by the previous doj leadership, even though trump supported him. why is director wray in trump's cross hair now? probably because he's broken

rank on trump's conspiracy theories. >> do you believe they're engaging in spying when they're following fbi policies and procedures. >> that's not the term i would use. >> do you have any evidence that any illegal surveillance into the campaigns or individuals associated with the campaigns by the fbi occurred? >> i don't think i personally have any evidence of that sort. >> robert costa? >> there's an ongoing ig investigation about the orgin of the russian probe. chris wray is acting the way any leader would act there's an o o ongoing investigation.

he's being mum, not going too far. it's attorney general barr when you talk to people, who's out on a limb using rhetoric like spying. but he comes out saying that's just a word he uses. it has a charge connotation for most people in this country. >> why does he do that? >> he's someone who believes spying is not a charged word. >> do you believe that? >> i don't know what's in his man. >> he's not a dumb man, he came out of the cia. my son uses that word spying. no one over 7 uses that word. >> he came out, it was some kind of spy operation from the start with any fair yus context. >> the fbi has two missions a criminal mission and national security mission. when the russian federation through intelligence services engage in unprecedented attacks

against our democratic institutions, including hacking and dumping emails, engaging in social media attacks, if the fbi did investigate russia, this would be a national scandal. the entirety of the fbi would be put out to pasture. we'd be wringing our hands about why america was left undefended. the fbi must protect the united states by engaging in those investigations. now for the president to question whether the investigation was predicated, lawfully overseen, illegal in the first place only emboldens one player, that's vladimir putin. >> the barr testimony was amazing in that his job as attorney general is to defend the institution, just like chris wray. so he can indulge himself in political spin that makes donald trump happy, but he is also there to defend the hard work and the credibility of the department of justice and the

fbi. so if you just take a step back and look at the fact that he didn't, that's quite amazing. if we look back at investigating the investigators and the origin of this, he could have said there's an ig investigation and we'll wait and not indulge in the word spying, which is charged and he knows it. if you look back at sort of trey gowdy when he was in office saying there wouldn't be a mueller investigation without the steeles dossier. listen to mark warner saying funny none of the republicans on our committee are leading this charge about investigating the investigators, because they have seen the report. >> it's stunning to see the president now attacking chris wray, it was not easy to find an fbi director after he smeared and maligned jim comey and decimated the entire senior leadership of the fbi. to see chris wray, who's a close

political and personal ally of one of the president's last standing allies, chris christie, is stunning. >> and bill barr won't react to the attack on chris wray. >> let me show you what jim baker said to rachel maddow. >> it's been horrible. i used the word trauma to describe what happened with respect to starting with the clinton investigation, all the way through starting the russian investigation, the transition, the comey firing and the kind of things you outlined before with andrew mccabe and everybody else. these were people that i worked with every day, especially jim comey, i've known him for years, he's my friend, i care about him deeply. i think he's a fantastic leader and he got fired in a way that was terrible in a very humiliating way. so that was really hard. it was a traumatic experience to go through. quite frankly having it talked about endlessly in the media doesn't help. you have to like relive it every

day, and there's like no escape because it's just on everywhere. it's been challenging. >> a formere today, it is surreal that the democrats are now the only party that defends the cia and the fbi. people say to me all the time, why are you so hard on the democrats? you're all we've got. that's it. >> it's so true, nicole. if you think about it, you see what the republican party used to be, about the rule of law, about being a patriot. now it's truly the party of donald trump. i did skmg something that i don't recommend viewers do, i took an hour or two looking at donald trump's twitter feed. it's filled with conspiracy theory, that's all it is. it is attacks after attacks after attacks. when you think about the fbi, cia and intelligence community. his thing it's loyalty to him so he attacks them for his own

personal ambition. he attacks them and uses them, like he's using barr to attack his own political people, right, like biden. so he's -- it's a -- he uses it as a political arm for his own personal use. and it's no longer an independent branch. and that's just the way that we are -- this is the world we're living in with donald trump. >> we brushed right over the tweet that started this block. but i want to end on it. is there anyone in congress with any discomfort with donald trump naming christopher wray as an accomplice to a coup? >> every republican i've sat down with recently, on record and off record, i brought up the word coup. c coup de tet is a phrase from governments overthrown around the world. not one person in the republican party has shown any discomfort with the term, the origin.

we've probed at the post, it's beyond incendiary with the term coup. it means people are plotting to overthrow the government. it's a term republicans nod at and say it's okay with us because that's the way we believe it all played out. this is before an ig report, before any new facts were out on this issue. >> it's stunning. ab, i have to give you the last word on that. it's a stunning debasement not just to the president but the executive branch -- >> the people like trey gowdy who were still around saying lets let cooler heads prevail are gone and the ones staying believe that their reelection are dependent on this type of c acquiescen acquiescence. after the break, how donald trump's theory for governing is

sowing chaos and confusion on the world stage. that's next. confusion on the world stage. that's next.

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when it comes to america's standing in the world, it's been a story of flailing and failing for donald trump over the last 48 hours. the president plunging the u.s. into a trade war with china and inching towards heightened tensions with iran. the stock market, the president's favorite indicator of his job performance down more than 600 points today after china retaliated with tariffs on immateri imports. "the washington post" writes, mike pompeo's last minute decision to visit the eu capital announce td as he boarded a plane from the u.s. set up a confrontation between the top u.s. diplomat and the european counter parts who have been scrambling to save the iran nuclear deal.

at least one foreign secretary said he feared escalation from the u.s. and iran could spark a conflict. a bold statement that appeared to assign equal culpability to washington and iran. joining the table, eugene robinson. gene? >> it was jeb bush who, during the campaign, said that donald trump would be a chaos president. and that's what he is. >> i think about that all the time. >> i do, too. in fact, i write about it for tomorrow. because that's what he is. you know, laying the ground work, what is ground work? what is laying ground work? he does stuff. and so he has taken us in to this trade war. if you believe his twitter feed based on a complete misunderstanding of balance and trade and how the whole things works and who pays tariffs and that sort of thing. cynically, he's just lying about

all that to appeal to his base, but he wants this trade war. so now he's got it. because guess what, you slap $200 billion worth of tariffs on china and they're going to retaliate. you come up with a last minute of the negotiation with an outray jus demand. that is what people told me, this is the way donald trump operated as a real estate developer. it's why people in new york, many prominent developers would never do business with him. they'd do business with him once and never again because that's the way he operates. so he drops this bomb at the last minute. so yes, they retaliate. and we're in a trade war and we don't know when it ends or where it goes. >> the other flashing yellow light. the dealings with iran. >> it's questionable whether the president made us safer vis-a-vis the iranian's program. i think this merits a vigorous

response from the international community. we're stronger when we act in concert with our european allies. after all, the sanctions effort against iran for many years didn't work. it's once we got uni lateral sanctions on iranians, that's when they started to heel to the community. so we are headed to a more dangerous and sparking time. >> we had an agreement. there was an agreement that the iranians have held to about their nuclear program and donald trump abgrow gaited that agreement. and john bolton who wanted regime change in iran, and he's pushing that in that direction but there's no answer on how to do that. >> go to gene's point. it's not just that he says stuff, he does stuff. he doesn't just say stuff. he does stuff. but he does a volume business of

chaos, that, you know, 35 minutes in we have a hard time focussing in on any one of them for more than a couple minutes. >> the upsetting thing about the crisis with irans and the europeans that the secretary of state are talking to are going to make the point that we had an agreement that at least kept everything stable for a while. and now, you know, you've gotten us into this pinch. we don't have an end game. we knew what john bolton's end game is, it's regime change in iran. we know the president was convinced there would be regime change in venezuela. he's frustrated it's not happened sooner. we don't know his end game with iran. the piece that linked north korea and china to iran is that he believes he can outbully people. with the exception of vladimir putin who he doesn't intend to bully. even with assad, even though there isn't a particular end game, though he loves tariffs, he's made that clear, he

believes he's going to bring them to heel and so far we haven't seen anyone do that. >> he hasn't done that with anyone. amy, thank you for spending time with us. after the break, joe biden sticks to the script and sees it in early polling. we'll talk about it after the break. we'll talk about it after the break. (door bell rings) it's open! hey. this is amazing. with moderate to severe ulcerative colitis, are you okay? even when i was there, i never knew when my symptoms would keep us apart.

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is what makes us happy. i think he doesn't get nearly the credit. he was a great president. a man with integrity, honor, decency, a backbone like a ramrod. >> that's joe biden this afternoon using his obama connection. does it vanish? the former vice president's popularity increasingly clear with each new poll. the numbers show today what they've shown for weeks. biden has a firm grip on his lead. in south carolina he has three

times the support of second place bernie sanders. outside the numbers there's reason for concern, it has to do with that obama connection. "the washington post" interviewed 53 former staff and advisers. quote, the former aides flipped broadly, only eight committed to biden. 11 have flipped to other candidates, and 34 are waiting to decide. lightening our conversation up, jason edwards. go. >> i'm not going to play the it's early. i'm going to play obama has never been behind him on this. most of what i hear is he was initially hot on beto. here's the thing. joe biden's -- >> don't cross over that. on bama was hot on beto? tell me more. >> i heard he was hot on beto. >> i was hot on beto. >> most people are. i think he's going to pop after

the first debate. he's doing a reset this week. >> we love a reset. >> everybody loves a reset. here's the problem with biden. the eight years are obama are great, he can dress himself up in an obama skin suit all he wants, but it's what he did beforehand. that's what i, south carolina, the african-american community is concerned about. you can obama 12 times he's not going to magically appear. >> you don't think you say trump three times and people are like let by gones be by gones? >> i don't think so. his release video, i don't know if that's where you want to start, we know donald trump is a bad guy. i don't think he's stainable. i think joe biden is a nice guy, i think he might be electable if he stumbles into the nomination. he's never been able to do this. in a field he's going to be up

against ten other people, and people who are clearer, sometimes smarter, sometimes more eloquent than him, i don't think he can sustain it. >> did you see the republican primary? >> that was a clown car. that was an absolute clown car. but this is the strongest, deepest field we've seen in 30, 35 years. a lot of these people are competent you can't steam roll them. >> i heard the same thing about republicans in many 2016, it's the strongest deepest field, we have a great bench. and they all got steam rolled. i look at the numbers. south carolina is a vitally important state. it's the first test of african-american support. and yeah, maybe, you know, maybe people will take a second more critical look at joe biden. but right now he's sitting pretty -- you know, sitting pretty good. i'd rather be sitting where biden is than where mayor pete

is or beto is. >> biden is overperforming and doing better than we anticipated. because people said he's going to be a weak front runner. he's pulling in african-american support, grant it it's older, but he's pulling in the support. grant it, it's barack. but good for him. it's early and we have a long way to go and anything can happen. that's one of the unfortunate potential issues for biden. a gaffe can happen. the 40 years of record could happen. >> that's an issue. >> that is a real issue. and the first debate is going to come up in like six weeks. >> no one is going anywhere. we're going to keep this going on the other side of the break. don't go anywhere. on the other k don't go anywhere. alright, let's get going! and you want to make sure to aim it. i'm aiming it. ohhhhhhh! i ordered it for everyone. [laughing] (dad vo) we got the biggest subaru to help bring

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every now and then i say this in commercial break, save it for the tv show. that's what i said to you. make the point you were making. >> i was saying look, african-american women are the base of the republican party -- i mean the democratic party, very clearly. but what we've got in south carolina, the second biggest constituency are black men. they're 20,000 more voters than white women and they're a swing vote and they're late deciders

and more cynical. joe biden can't say obama obama obama and get working class black men to vote for him. that's going to matter. if he gets 43% of the black vote in south carolina, it is done. if he can only get 15 or 20 and not crazy to say that will drop when they hear the statements, this is not a lot for him even in that state. >> what are the policies that will speak to voters in south carolina? >> you've got several. you have criminal justice. that's always important. that's important for everybody because of some of dr draconian laws. health care is close to the top. the economy is great now, there is a slow down in rural communities and people working jobs that are associated with agriculture. we have it in the midwest and in the south. >> does not joe biden speak to economic realities on the ground? >> he kind of has to -- you have to have a policy, too, not just

the verbiage, the language. you have to be this is what i can do and even done in the past. one thing that hillary clinton did during her primary, she went into rural america. and it was really smart. and we saw that. she traveled. she worked that vote in south carolina. what is joe biden going to do to work that vote in south carolina? >> meanwhile, if the race is joe biden and the rest, that's good for joe biden. >> that's what the trump primary was. >> it was trump saying what he was saying and everybody else was blah blah blah. they went off one by one. >> the idea he can keep it as a tiger versus the field thing is dated. he is not going to be able to do that for long. it is not just gas, joe biden. >> no, who's coming up? >> i don't think we know yet. that's key. i think the debates will make a difference.

a lot of people aren't paying attention. they know the names, they know joe biden and bernie sanders, they know elizabeth warren, she has more attention. they know pete buttigieg. my concern for joe biden, this is not ageism, not just him looking old, it is him sounding old. >> even the policies. >> and you can't just stand up there as you mentioned and say barack and i did this and that. hillary clinton said bill and i did this and people didn't care. they wanted to know what you were going to do. we need to know how joe biden differs from barack obama. >> they did care, she won the primary and upon popular vote. >> and still lost the election. >> but in the democratic primary, the legacy of progress of the clinton and obama years carries a lot of weight. >> it did, but that was an exceptionally weak field, a bunch of political has beens, no one had a chance against her. i think joe biden faces a tougher field than hillary clinton faced in 2016. >> this will keep going day

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we've been talking politics. and beto o'rourke is rachel maddow's special guest tonight. thanks to you all. the best of the best. thank you so much for watching. that's our hour. "mtp daily" starts with steve kornacki in for chuck. thanks for that. president trump has another head snapping moment in the oval office. good evening. i am steve kornacki in new york in for chuck todd. welcome to "mtp daily." we have a pair of major developments that are both brewing at this hour. the president is in the middle of an escalating trade war