"weekends with alex witt." i will see you at noon eastern. stay where you are. it's time for "up with david gura." this is "up." i'm david gura. this morning the battle lines over abortion rights from alabama to missouri, a wave of new restrictions hit states across the country. the bill's backer banking on the supreme court to take on the issue while the women try to hold the lines. >> we are under attack and will not stand for it. >> a nine wiationwide assault o women's rights. >> a new filing sheds light on how donald trump's team pried to put pressure on michael flynn while attorney william barr remains focused on investigating the investigators.

>> it wasn't handled in the ordinary way. i think people have to find out what the government was doing during that period. spoiling for a fight? the military buildup in the middle east, the president dismissing reports from the national security adviser as he waits for a phone call from tehran. head to iowa with a sit-down with governor ensley and his state on climate change. >> this is a demanding situation where we have people being flooded and burned out of their homes. yet we have a guy in the white house saying it is a hoax. it is asaturday, may 18, equipment and governor inslee is part of a democratic field that keeps getting more and more crowded. the question this morning is who is not running? >> at this point announcing you're running for president is like you're running a 5k. good for you. who cares? don't post pictures. up next, speaker of the vice chair of the new york state

party and democrat don calloway, ashley pratt, think contributor and member of the republican women for congress and a senior editor at slate. for more than four decades a woman's right to choose has been federally protected. the supreme court decided roe versus wade in 1973. this week two more states passed legislation restricting abortions. alabama sign missouri bill just backed the bill. it would only provide exceptions for medical emergencies, not rape or incest. alabama's bill makes it a felony for a doctor to perform or attempt an abortion during any stage of a pregnancy. republican lawmakers are gearing up for fights in court. anti-abortion advocates hope at thee least one of these bills will be a vehicle for the supreme court to take up abortion rights once

again. let me mark this moment. i mentioned the two states and other states are passing -- or attempting to pass similar legislation. help us understand the moment we're in right now. >> to be simple about it, it's a bad moment. it's not just a bad moment for women and girls. it is a bad moment for the entire country because some of our worse fears of what air donald trump presidency would be are coming to fruition. really something that was settled decades ago in 1973, that's always been controversial, but was settled and has given women and girls access to -- full access to their lives, full agency over themselves, is now being whittled away by a very vocal minority. seven out of ten americans do not want roe versus wade overturned. which means they would not support any of these bills because that is what they do, because that is what their goal is. i've heard people in the

religious right say they're the new kind of moral majority, and they're going to go state by state and get rid of roe versus wade. they're the majority of nothing. if you look at the content of these bills, these so-called lifers have no concern about a woman's life, if she's at health risk in many cases, no concern of women and girl's emotional life if they're going to make somebody who is a survivor of rape or incest carry a baby to term, these are people who are driven by their own twisted ideology and although it may -- we may see more setbacks, we will prevail. i want to know, and why it hasn't coverage, a pro-choice bill in maine which is what new york did codified roe versus wade into law and moved through the senate. it is good news. not a law yet but moving

forward. >> you 0 wrotewrote a great pie this. this is not about maternal health and safe practice of medicine and never was. it's about job. that makes thing awkwards for john roberts. i mentioned the end goal here for the champion of these bills is get it to the supreme court. explain on-roberts saying the result of this about a law like this being passed in missouri or alabama. >> since 1992 and the supreme court reaffirmed roe, there was always a notion that we're not doing this to hurt women. we're doing this to make sure that they're protected, that they make good decision. so there's a a huge uptick of informed laws, even though it isn't true, suicide, and abortion, breast cancer and abortion e. a whole host opens laws that are track lies that

try to close clinics, laws that say doctors have to do mandatory ultrasounds that are not needed. and the costs surge and it's great for john roberts because clinics are closing all across the country. but always with the patina of we're doing this to protect mothers and help them have good information and make choices. what happened in alabama is different than what happened in the other states because it's purely punitive. it's just going to hurt women. and there's no longer the sort of mythology i motherhood and childhood and bonding and they make good decisions. now the story is good, let them suffer. >> you mentioned how the terrain shifted. "the new york times" noted six states now where there's only one abortion clinic in each state, kentucky, mississippi, north dakota, south dakota, west virginia as well. >> think if you're low income or a young girl who's in an incest situation. who are you going to ask in that situation, mom when it's dad or

the uncle to take you to the clinic? what if you literally don't have the car fare money to get there if it's all the way on the other side of the state? so state having one clinic is just about the same thing as not being able to get an abortion. >> let me ask you about the degree to which this is driving republican policies overall. christine making the point this is a minority, a small percentage of religious and evangelicals pushing for these types of bills. how does this change the republican position, and make it uncomfortable for republicans to talk about the issue of choice and roe versus wade. >> as someone who used to be a republican trump changed that to me. i don't recognize the republican party anymore. i think this is exactly why we are seeing them become more white, more male and older because they are completely disassociated with reality here and the fact that women need access to health care. they take this moral superiority high ground that is unrelatable to a majority of americans.

the real disconnect is you look at things like birth control and access to it, which republicans stand against in most cases and say no, close your legs. that is incredibly insulting. that puts pressure on women, right, to what? i mean, honestly, i don't understand what that means other than to just insult women for their anatomy and their gender. to that point we have seen abortion rates go down because of the affordable care act. so as we've seen increased access to health care, lower birth control, whether it be, you know, ieds, pills, anything that women can now have access to that lowers the abortion rate, which should be what republicans want, they decry moral superiority again and say no, you shouldn't be taking these things, practice abstinence, all of this stuff. that's not reality here. being pro-choice doesn't mean you're pro abortion. it means you are pro women's right to do what she wants with her own body and the government should stay out of that. another hypocritical point

because if they are limited government and believe that, then you shouldn't want the government dictating what a woman does with her body. you should be the one making that decision. but again, hypocrisy abounds, same thing with gay marriage. if we're going to tell people who they can and cannot marry, the government shouldn't be in that personal choice either. >> at what point is this a pivotal political point? you saw "gq" write an open letter to men about how they should respond to this. >> first of all, men should have nothing to do with the discussion, almost to the degree you and i shouldn't be here. our colleagues are completely on point, completely correct. i have very little to add to any of the substantive points they made. i would say it's entirely political but at this point the republican party is no longer the party of life. you have the party of life in as much as these are people who are okay with kids and cages and dyeing at the border. these are people who are okay

with rampant death penalties throughout the states in america and people okay with ripping americans away from any type of affordable access to comprehensible health care. life is not part of this discussion if we want to be intellectually honest here. i'm a former member of the missouri legislature and dual citizen of missouri and alabama. yes, so i apologize to the world on behalf. this is not about -- it is entirely political but this is not about women's health care. it is not even about abortion. this is about enforcing the patriarchy. in the wake of the resistance, in the wake of women coming to power and on the back end of the me too movement, this is about finding a way to de facto and jury the white vote. >> there was a piece about the

anger she felt and was mad at republicans but angry at democrats as well. in the essay she talks about the brett kavanaugh nomination as a pivot point here. help us understand the degree to which it was. we're looking at this week, not in isolation, of course, but how has this colored brett kauv gnaw to the bench. >> i think it's important to understand the alabama bill and other bills are nullification. they're not constitutional. in fact, the missouri ban cannot even go into effect until roe is overturned. it's important to understand this is massive resistance. this is saying we're going to pass patently unconstitutional bills. why? we want it to be a vehicle to go to the supreme court. that's why we're taking out rape and incest, by the way. those exemptions are carveds out so it will go like a rocket to the court and i think it's a pivot point because nobody would do that if brett kavanaugh were not on the court. if anthony kennedy were on the court, we would not be nullifying roe v. wade.

>> thank you very much for joining us this morning. up ahead, new information someone tide to the white house and congress attempted to interfere with robert mueller's probe and why the president may be trying to distance himself from one of his first advisers. s this time, it's his turn. s you have 4.3 minutes to yourself. this calls for a taste of cheesecake. philadelphia cheesecake cups. rich, creamy cheesecake with real strawberries. find them with the refrigerated desserts. [spanish recording] so again, using "para",

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congressman matt goetz direct messages, urging the president to, quote, keep the pressure on. early filings shed light on michael flynn cooperating with the special counsel's investigation, telling robert mueller's team people leaked to the trump administration and congress attempted to interfere in the investigation. there is a voicemail mission flynn received from one of the president's personal attorneys selling him, quote, if there's information that implicates the president, then we have another national security issue. we need some kind of heads up for the sake of protecting all of our interests. remember what we always said about the president and his feelings towards flynn, and that still remains. a judge said transcripts of that recording and redacted portions of the mlgs report that have to do with michael flynn have to be made public by the end of may. glen kirscher joining us at the table, former federal prosecutor. help us understand this moment. these filings came out. we knew about the existence of

these voicemails, something cited and referenced in the mueller report. now with judge emmet sullivan's demands, do we get the transcripts? perhaps the audio of the voicemail and another phone call as well? how does that change the story and narrative surrounding michael flynn and his relationship to the president and legal team? >> when i saw the newly unredacted information talking about how there people connected to the administration that might be trying to dissuade flim from either testifying, cooperating or continuing to cooperate, and then what really piqued my interest is there were people connected to congress for apparently doing the same. it all sounds a little obstructiony to me. i think if i were a prosecutor i would want to -- and i'm sure mueller already has dug into all of that to see what it involves. listen, i love judge emmet sullivan full stop. i litigated before him. he marches to the beat of his own drum, and that drum is usually banging out justice. he gets really angry at

government misdeeds and corruption. i find it really interesting that he has directed that the prosecutors start to make things public. i will tell you as much as i embrace that, judges don't have discovery rights and it's unusual for a judge to say, you know, i know you have presented certain information to me in furtherance of what you think is an appropriate sentence for mike flynn, but i want you to start making things public. that's really unusual. again, i applaud it. i think everybody is sick and tired of playing the waiting game. congress cannot -- mueller passed congress the ball and they can't break out of the huddle. they will not go up to the line of scrimmage, they will not begin running plays. so i welcome judge sullivan directing. you know what, the people are entitled to see some of this. let's see what barr or mueller

or some combination, how they respond to judge sullivan's order. >> actually there was a moment on rachel maddow's show talking about the news and does a wonderful side where she processes to say in light of this how can there not be impeachment proceedings? to glenn's point, it seems to obstructiony. how can this not be grounds for congress to take further action? >> here's my two cents on it. i think 2020 is the reason why. democrats want to take this to the ballot box. they want to show he's untrustworthy. gosh, man, there's so many words you can use to describe this trump administration. untrustworthy seems to be the best one i can use on air. so when you're talking about this, right, democrats are in quite the pickle when they go out to small towns in iowa, new hampshire, because is this what the people care about? no. they care about the issues. so if they make it all about impeaching trump, it's less of a ballot box issue and more of a it's trump, it's trump, and that's not what they're going to

win on. they care about the issues. so i think once we get past '20, if trump unfortunately were to win another term, i think that's when democrats pursue impeachment because what do they have to lose at that point? right now they will let it play out at the ballot box and why we're not seeing measures running plays right now. i think that's concerning though at the same time becauses we w all of these people in trump's circle answer questions. the only one who didn't is trump, who somehow can't recall anything, which to me is the real issue here. that tells me something definitely happened because he's just saying, i don't recall. all of these people around him seem to recall just fine what was going on. >> the man with the self-proclaimed best memories. coming up, the later edition of application of politicians & the plate i go to iowa to speak with jay inslee. you wouldn't accept an incomplete job

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this is "up." i'm david gura. this week i was in iowa to interview candidate jay inslee. the governor of washington unveiled a $9 trillion plan to tackle climate change. the issue is the cornerstone of his campaign and he's having trouble getting traction with voters as he toured businesses with recent flooding in davenport. i asked him how he will make that issue resonate. >> as we listen to the business owners, they talk about what's

immediately in front of him, rebuilding their businesses. what you say might be a coda to them. how do you increase the resonance of that message, that is it is bigger than once again tearing down a building and putting it up again? >> we just talk about the science. i heard from a young woman after the dress for success who will talk about the need for a president who will find the climate presence. >> to continue our conversation at ross' restaurant nearby, its world famous cinnamon buns were on the table of this discussion of "politicians & the pastry play." >> we pick up the paper we have carbon dioxide levels we have not seen for 11 years. how do you explain the gap between that and how serious things are and look at your polling and what people think about climate change. why is that gap between the two? >> the gap is between who want climate change and the gap are people from iowa who deserve to

have a president to protect them. this is a maddening situation where we have people being flooded, we have people being burned out of their homes. communities have to tax themselves and rebuild infrastructure. yet we have a guy in the white house who thinks it's a hoax. we have a president who thinks wind turbans cause cancer? this produces jobs and we have a lerd like we did in the apollo project and world war ii and when we have that leadership, we will protect people from fires, we're going to protect people from floods and wire going to get gene energy jobs in the millions across the nation. we speed to spark leadership. that's what makes me mad, that we don't have that right now. >> what do you think of the voter who looks and says i'm a single issue of guy. i don't deal with climate. how does your plan differ from the green new deal or what

senator elizabeth warren has proposed, what joe biden is going to propose when he unveils his plan for clean energy? >> my plan is the only plan i think that is up to the job. my plan is the only job that was specifically saying we need to rid our cities of coal by 2030. my plan is the only plan that said we need to wean ourselves off fossil fuels by 2035. my plan is the only plan that has a job creation at the central core of ways to build jobs throughout our industry, including blue collar jobs. my plan is the only plan that's based on a couple decades of experience. but there's a lot of challenge in the field. i already counted 18 possible vice presidents. but i'm the only guy who ever delivered on this. >> you have a president wrong on the science and president wrong on economic when's you talk about trade, how do you combat

that? how people can become what the president is saying, if it's wrong, that we are bringing in millions of billions in the tariffs put in place, that there is no climate crisis? >> listen, i think we need leaders who will base their position on two things, one is reality and science that ultimately wins debates and is winning the climate crisis debate. the american people understand the jig is up. they're demanding a response to the fires and floods. they're seeing the jobs being created and we're winning this debate over time. number two, i think this is very important as well. we need leaders who will put themselves allied with the basic character values of the american people. look, we are a farsighted, innovative people. we event, we create, we build. we're always future oriented. we don't look backwards. and with confidence.

what i'm asking from people if you want a confidence president who believes in the innovative ca capability of the united states, who wants to look forward, not backwards, that's a character issue. i think we appeal to the deeper character of america like john f. kennedy did, we will do just fine. we will make donald trump history and restore the better nature of the character of america. i'm ready to do that. >> i found something refreshing in that conversation, how much he talked about the science, believing the science and what reality is. your reaction to what you heard there. he's a single issue candidate. and historically that's the kind of candidate that hasn't done well in the present area. what do you make of that campaign and what he's trying to do? >> regardless of his 18 vice presidential picks or eight or whatever the number was, he's a single-issue candidate on a critically important issue -- >> kbbig issue.

>> -- life threaten eing to the planet so i applaud him of being a one-issue candidate on an important issue. but one-issue candidates do not prevail. they don't carry the day in presidential elections. so i hope he is thinking about how he pov otivots once his ele part is over to continue to m y amplify the issue. i totally get it he's talking about how his plan is distinct, et cetera, et cetera. i'm worried about the climate change issue because there's already in-fighting. people were attacking biden's plan before they saw biden's plan and he's trying to differentiate himself from oscasio-cortez. so i think this speaks to a man with an important point, raising an important issue, but we have to think about how we have one voice on climate change and he needs to figure out how to be a big part of it, particularly because he has delivered. >> don, it's an issue, it's a political issue, yes.

it's a moral issue as well. when you listen to him, when you listen to what he said, what i asked him about, it's so fascinating. >> jig is up, david. jig is up. >> but we meet somebody who would with talk about what happened and he would introduce climate change, it's happening for this reason. so there was still a point of education happening there as well. somebody stands out in my mind, we're the first generation to feel the sting of climate change. how does when he dovetailed the two things, political and moral issue and make it something folks care when they go to the ballot box. >> you don't dovetail the two things. it is a real issue. it's important to know we're at a space in democratic party politics where we recognize climate change is not real, no longer an issue or debate and top of the agenda. let's take it jack to jay inslee and state the facts here. my tie is yellow. jay inslee will not be president. these are real things. what should jay inslee be doing to take that agenda item, to take that thing as a real moral

imperative and implant it in the democratic party platform? that's what a team player would do. i'm at the point i'm welcoming all colors but at the same time if you're asking people to give you money, you and i ran for office before, you're asking people to invest in you for something that is a quick-sighted mission at best, you have no business doing this. so what is your real goal here? ultimately and fundamentally an exercise in hubris, and he's not the only one guilty of this but the one who happened to be on the video i sat on this platform. so one would have to look at the '22 field and say hey, who is doing this for reasons, i get it, you're elevating an issue. but let's take that issue and inject it florida the party platform because it's time 0 to to narrow it down and get to the real issue and separate from the pretenders. god bless jay inslee, he's a great guy.

>> he joins governor hickenlooper from colorado as well. how important is that when we talk about the field being distilled to have that kind of state executive experience? >> i think state executive experience is huge but look what happened to jeb bush, exclamation point. so that's where politics has changed a lot. i think a degree now that i have in political science means nothing. you can study the science of this until you're blue in the face and realize trump won an election that none of us really saw coming. if you look at some of the trends that are occurring, and i agree with that point wholeheartedly, you have got to determine if you are a democrat is our goal to beat donald trump? or is our goal to just make noise, change our platform, run more to the defendant and not really capture those moderate suburban swing voters who voted for obama and voted for trump in '16? if the end goal at the end of the day is defeat donald trump,

they need to coalesce behind one person. right now that one person is joe biden. i argued he's the best to take on trump. for many reasons, his liability, his polling, record, bipartisan. he knows how to get the job done. i think at this point in time it's great to have conversations and see the differences out there but a decision needs to be made soon, and maybe it will be after the first debate in june. >> we will have more conversation up ahead in the our next hour of thoughts and immigration and health care, how he hopes to make president trump the blip in history. tune in tonight for "saturday night politics" with cory booker joining donny deutsche right here on msnbc. up next, the president claims there's no plan to send 120,000 troops to the middle east. as his own national security adviser beats the drum for war. that's next. that's next. alright, let's get going! and you want to make sure to aim it. i'm aiming it. ohhhhhhh! i ordered it for everyone. [laughing]

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confront iran militarily, that's according to u.s. military officials who spoke to "time" magazine. president trump is dialing down the rhetoric. officials are now signaling the white house is ready to talk to tehran. tensions with the country reached a boiling point this week thanks in large part to john bolton, the president's national security adviser. the very same john bolton who insisted iraq had weapons of mass destruction. a great headline on mother jones, be john bolton wanted war with iran since before you were born. confusing signaled from the white house and pentagon, one of the president's closest allies senator lindsey graham was not pleased with the lack of clarity. some creative spin on that point on twitter saying all of the confusion could be a good thing and iran doesn't know what to think. jim brennan, former director of the cia, has a different take. >> we have to recognize that it's been the united states that's been beating the drums of increased pressure that they could interpret as preparations for war. the united states has reneged on

its commitments for the joint comprehensive plan of action, the iranian nuclear deal. we have imposed additional sanctions on iran and we have forced other countries to choose between the united states and iran. if there's been a march towards war, the drums of the united states of the trump administration, the ones are beating loudest. >> nbc's correspondent calipari is joining us here. he spent time in baghdad, lebanon and now joining us in new york. i want to talk about bill burns, former high-ranking official and foreign policy adviser to joe biden and others. so far the president's strategy is all coercion and no diplomacy. the blustery rhetoric of he's senior officials and administration's lack of direct engagement with tehran pro tray a fundamentally different goal, the capitulation or implosion of the iranian regime. help us understand what we've seen over the course of the week. there's a quiet that falls as things seem to be re-evaluated

in the white house. give us your take on what's happening. >> i want to be really fair here, it's not just the religious hard liners driving this war. there are religious hard-liners in iran contributing to this. this is what i'm saying, the american people and media have to look at this from a different perspective. the administration was seen ripping up the iranian agreement. the folks in that room with trump, john bolton, never met a war he didn't love. there is no u.s. defense secretary. incredibly dangerous thing when you don't have somebody like general mattis sitting at the table arguing we shouldn't be throwing troop numbers around so cavalierly. we haven't finished the last war yet. instead you have patrick shanahan, a man who spent 30 years at boeing, was brought in two years ago to expand the size of the u.s. military and do exactly this. i think it's important that everybody sort of look at this the way countries and our allies are looking at this around the world, which is that the u.s. is no longer a force for stability around the world.

the u.s. is pushing iran to the brink. and some of this jengs we have to be suspicious of, not just because of the war in iraq but the trump administration has a history of lying to the american public. >> christine quinn, there's so much reporting on the tensions within the national security team. john bolton advocating for war, venezuela. the president, proudly during the campaign said it's something he did not want to get tangled in, foreign disputes. your reaction to that. john bolton is still his job, even in this period. >> it's another example of chaos in the white house and another example of why they reported the president kind of like a food fight between those who work for him that he can oversee and revel in. but this isn't a discussion about some trivial matter. i mean, this is a discussion about iran and war. really two words you would rather never put together or have to think about substantively. so this is i hope a great

example to the american people of how dangerous is really, really is. i think the point about mattis not being there, if you're the kind of leader who really likes to get input from every corner and then discern it -- >> right. >> i'm going to move on from that statement but you would want to have multiple opinions in the room. and only having kind of real hawkish opinion in there, if you only hear one voice, trump's only going to go one way. >> glenn, there are people who want that information. there are members of congress who are frustrated with the fact the white house is not providing it. there was a grieving for the gang of eight last week. all-house briefing this coming week. lindsey graham i mentioned is frustrated by what he's learned here. talk about that, what you're witnessing about this being hatched, and rational not being presented in any sort of to say effective way, literally way that those who need to know. >> and echoing what everybody is

saying. trump when i see him standing up says well, i'm sitting by the phone. i'm waiting for iran to call me. this is diplomacy for toddlers. but i guess when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail with apologies to hammers, which actually serve a purpose. so all he wants to do is hit people over the head. i think really just for the pleasure of inflicting pain. now, i think we also see this distraction coming a mile away, and as bad as the republicans have been enable ing what i thi is a criminal present when we absorb volume of the mueller report and number of felony obstruction offenses this president committed, as bad as the republicans have been enabling everything trump has done, if they actually let trump drag us into a war of distraction and send soldiers to potentially fight and die, is

there any more ultimate sin than that? >> last question, as glenn said the president is waiting by the phone for a phone call from iran, the foreign minister of iran, who was educated here in the u.s., be and is quite adept to debating the president on twitter, indicated the b-team in the white house, making digs on bolton, saying the president prefers himself. the likelihood as you see it there will be this break, opening of communications along the line that the president will be forecasting or wanting at this point. >> i think there's a deal to be made to talk between the iranian and american government. that deal will be john bolton. i think he will say to the iranians, we're happy to open a dialogue but not with john bolton in the room. he's very clear on this. he's a hawk and war guy. iranians have actually been fairly reserved considering that nuclear deal was torn up. but they had a deal. by the way, this deal was about

transaction. it wasn't about transformation. nobody was talking about a democratic utopia in iran. it was about keeping them where they are on their nuclear program and looking to the future. every time i see wendy sherman walk around this building, i think the years of diplomacy that went into that, incredibly, difficult historic agreement, gone. >> wendy asherman, former deput of state and worked on that agreement. up next -- form constituents worried bill de blasio is off and running away. >> obviously, he can run. he's the 23rd candidate. i understand that. but the question is why? like what's up? >> so you -- >> but he's a friend.

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i can't believe it. i just heard that the worse man in the history of new york city and without question the worse man in the united states is now running for president. >> president trump wasting no time reacting to mayor bill de blasio's decision to seek the

democratic nomination. the president tweeting, quote, he is a joke but if you like high taxes and crime he's your man. nyc hates him. de blasio, the 23rd democrat to announce a run, is unfazed. the fellow new yorker. >> donald trump is playing a bin con on america. i call him con don. every new yorker knows he's a con artist. >> plenty of his constituents have reservations about hi run for president and according to the "new york times," some of mr. de blasio's colleagues have scoffed at the idea of him becoming president and have urged him to instead focus on a bev very of nagging issues in new york city such as crumbling public house, problem plagued subways. you have been on stage with him facing off against the mayor in the past. you deal with some of these issues, as well.

how fair is that criticism that the city is in bad shape, that he's not minding the story? >> well, look, there is no argument that this city has big problems right now. i mean, you cannot argue that our public housing authority isn't a mess that has read issues with lead abasement that were not addressed. i run a homeless women's organization. 23,000 to 24,000 children slept in homeless shelters last night. that's more than fit in madison square garden. so these are not always the typical problems with whoever is the mayor. they're significant and at all-time records. the mayor does deserve credit for things he's done like bringing in universal pre-k, moving that down to 3-year-olds, building on policies that i put in place. his move to split up rykers, our

prison in new york, is the right thing to do. so he has positives. >> are you surprised he's doing this? >> look, i wanted to be the mayor of the city of new york. i don't know why you'd want to be anything but the mayor of the city of new york. it's the greatest job in the world. he's got, like, two years left. i mean -- >> to that point, don, margay who has been on the show a number of times, she's a great op-ed about the prospects of him running. she said somewhere along the way mr. de blasio started to seem a little checked out. a malaise checked over him something mrilike a seven-year h seven years too soon. a top aide for de blasio said this is exactly right. he's absolutely bored and doesn't expect to be mayor. he just wants to get out of nyc.

pathetic. >> don the con, that was -- whew, man, that was rough. >> con the don. >> we will not do a spanish translation of that. >> and why the name calling? >> this is new york. that's what you all do, isn't it? >> that ain't what we do. we don't bully. >> i'm glad to see that he's running only because he's a mayor. historically, the presidency has been restricted to senators and governors. mayors are the best job in america because they're immediately responsive to the people. they manage the legislature, they manage a budget, it's a good job to have. that said, he's not the guy. in my soul, i'm a campaign operative. and i track the rise of pete buttigieg as well as the decline of bill de blasio to a campaign operative. poe l politico, liz smith, wrote

something about she is the engine behind all things mayor pete. he is a remarkable candidate, but she is there. his decline, he did a remarkable job in the campaign because of her and he got rid of her. but she is a legitimate boss. if you don't know her, political nerds, you should google her. lis smith. she is legitimate. >> i would concur in her greatness. no, no, for real. >> there are real people behind the scenes of these fingers that we see. she's one of them. and you can track mayor de blasio's design to getting rid of lis smith. >> should anybody who wants to run be able to run? >> apparently so. that's what we're seeing now. >> i'm not a political guy. these folks know politics. but here is the way i see it. when i saw that clip of de blasio saying i'm going to call him con don, i don't think you can freight train up and go like this with donald trump because, one, it drags you down to his level and two, you're not going

to outfreight train here. here is what i think we need, okay? and i'm going to give my wife credit for in imagery and she's brighter than i am. you need a politician who can get trump so angry that he's like a bull and his nostrils are flaring and he's pawing at the dirt and then you hold up the red cape and you pull it away and he let trump fall on his face courtesy of his own momentum. that's what i've seen buttigieg doing. i'm not endorsing anybody, but i've seen him take trump to task and take him down. that's the kind of politician i think we need. not somebody who is going to drop down to trump's level. >> we have to leave it there. thank you for your time. tomorrow on "up on i ", michelle gold fwerg, brier lehrer and michelle lopez. coming up in our next hour, campaign kickoff countdown. joe biden is set to take the

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this is "up." conservative lawmakers pass radical antiabortion laws in alabama and missouri this week.

missouri is the latest state to bring forth restrictive abortion legislation. it would ban abortion at eight weeks. the only exception being for a medical emergency. doctors would face up to 15 years in jail. president trump has not been as outspoken on abortion in recent months. according to politico, that's at least partly by design. back in 2016, he spoke with chris matthews about the subject. >> do you believe in punishment for abortion, yes or no as a principal? >> the answer is there has to be some form of punishment. >> for the woman? >> yeah. there has to be some punishment. >> for a young woman who finds herself pregnant? >> it will have to be determined. >> march 30th, 2016. a major moment in this debate was when brett kavanaugh was confirmed to the u.s. supreme court. the "new york times" reporting red states passed past more restrictions and blue states to pass restrictions. for years, lawmakers have taken

bites out of the process but over time, courts have grown more sympathetic and a broad swath of the country now has minimal access to the procedures. six states each have only one abortion clinic left. kentucky, north dakota, south carolina, missouri, west virginia. obviously this is a political issue. it's always been a political issue. but it's likely to become even bigger going forward. richard lann being quoted in the "new york times," the relationship that evangelicals have with president trump is a transactional one. up with me this morning, alexa mchammond is a political reporter for axios. mimi is a southern district attorney for the southern district of new york now a msnbc legal analyst and david jones. alexa, you wrote a great piece

about elizabeth warren's reaction to this legislation being passed in alabama. we've heard the other candidates about this, as well. help us understand the political significance of what we've seen this week, the way this has helped define or draw those battle lines? >> what's interesting about elizabeth warren and a couple of others is that a lot of the 2020 democratic candidates are coming out with statements saying they're very concerned about it, but very few are coming up with policies to uphold roe v. wade and making sure women have access to abortion. that is setting the stage for others to come out with policies to come out with something like roe v. wade. i think we you a sort of knew that roe v. wade would be

overturned by a thousand small cuts. republicans saw in 2018 that especially in senate races, anti-abortion groups helped them in these deep red states win these senate races. democrats are now saying that they have to have a more forceful response to it and especially plans that sort of back up what they're feeling, not just what they're saying. >> amy, looking at it from a legal perspective, let's look at what happens in alabama. there are those on the right who say this isn't the vehicle that should be going to the supreme court to make this case that roe v. wade should be overturned. help us understand how it was crafted and the viability of it as a piece of legislation that could make its way to the supreme court. >> well, it certainly could make its way there, but i do -- and i can't believe i'm saying this -- agree with hal robertson -- >> might have you on the 700 club. >> we're in this rare moment here that it is probably, i think, not the right vehicle.

and i know that doesn't mean we shouldn't be worried and concerned and prepare, but i think that we had been seeing the death of roe v. wade. and i think that was very effective, right? it kind of was able to go under the radar in ways. it didn't mobilize people who are pro choice in the way that this is. you look at this and people get it. they want to put doctors in jail for 99 years, more than the time as the rapist. as a legal matter, right now it is 100% unconstitutional and cannot with stand scrutiny. there would have to be a drastic change. that is not really an undue burden. you can impose that.

and we restrict access so much that people can't get abortions in the way that we're able to make the choices in the way that they should be able to under the law. so i think this is ultimately going to fail, but that's if people sort of get it and rally around it. >> david corn, there is a theme to a lot of the op-eds i've read and that is wake up. where have you been while this is happening. plenty of people writing today that there should have been a greater awareness by those who are in favor of more abortion rights, who aren't against the abortion rights. >> people have been saying for years, every time an election rolls around, you have to support a democrat if you care about abortion rights because of the supreme court and the judicial appointments. and it's an issue that never polls high. i'm voting this way or that way because of the supreme court, except with evangelicals who went for trump. it means we see him as a

loathsome human being, but he's doing what we like so we're supporting him. what this is doing now is raising the issue in a way that on the of republicans don't want it raised. they like the thousand cut strategy because it didn't get that attention. but how many republicans have you heard in the last few days, national republicans, senators, members of congress come out and say this is great. i'm all for this? no. reporters are asking them about this in the hallways of congress, with they're ducking the question and running away. they don't want to have an all-out fight on abortion because they know the numbers. two-thirds to three-quarters of americans support keeping roe v. wade. then it's a loser of an issue if you get to the fundamental fight between one side and the other side. so this is, i think, right now, a bad thing politically for the republicans. they're going to be forced to deal with this in a way more difficult than for the democrats.

>> there's a piece saying president trump is being quiet or he's being held at bay and not encouraged to talk about this issue. it wasn't many weeks ago that you had him on the campaign trail talking about abortion in visceral, wrong terms. how resonant has that been? he's used things that are scientifically unfounded and foul and that's been used to gin up excitement from this minority that david corn has described. >> it's a little surprising that we haven't heard from him about this alabama law, especially given what you just mentioned and the fact that in his state of the union speech, i think he added more language about abortion than he initially intended. he knows what to do to gin up his base. he knows that relationship between himself and evangelicals. when i interviewed franklin graham for our first season of axios, we talked a lot. >> disclosure now. >> yeah. we had a second season coming

up. >> good product placement there. shameless plugs, always encouraged. >> i interviewed frankly graham about this about how can you be an evangelical leader and support someone like president trump? he made it very clear that everyone around him are looking for people like him in the evangelical community and upholding their beliefs. they don't agree with everything he does politically, but they like that he's looking out for them. and president trump knows that the stronger language he uses reflect the beliefs of what they're telling him behind closed doors. >> look out for him now when the issue is historic and has the potential of energizing the base? >> i haven't talked to him this morning. >> standing by for the phone call. >> if you're watching. yes, please. >> phillipe, your reaction to this and brett kavanaugh's confirmation, there were a lot of people sounding the alarm that his confirmation was a signal that something like this

could happen. >> well, it was a searing moment. i think it was one of two moments in the 2017-2018 window that we reverted back to a standard 50/50 country. it was very unnerving because you had all sorts of people who don't like trump, who don't like the way he does things, but that they kicked into gear the minute that democrats were coming after one of their picks. and i don't know -- you know, i don't think donald trump called someone in alabama and said please get this going, it would be helpful. but he'll make lemonade out of it or think he will in that he'll run around next year saying the next president is going to have, one b one pick, two pick, some people say they will have four picks and you can't trust a socialist picking these folks. i guess what makes me a little nervous is republicans are -- the right wing is much better at animating these issues than the democrats are. democrats, this is item one on a list of ten that were just out

of our mind crazy and ready to vote about. they're the ones that need the motivation. and to the extent that you have this group of -- the real reason they lost the house was this group of, you know, college educated suburban white women who soften their support of trump as compared to 2016. and i don't really know how that plays into this. whether this is a wake-up call for them that they are pro life. these people are also full of it. it's impossible to know how much -- i mean, the evangelical is perfect. i say not what he does. >> very quickly here, we're hearing you talk about this during the kavanaugh confirmations. >> yeah. i think it has the potential to energize people would, while outraged at trump, wouldn't be as motivated, but when they see this in this way, coming at them as women, and because, you know, the state senator, i think it's mississippi, it's hard to keep

all these abortion bans straight who said yesterday -- >> or missouri, consensual rape. >> yeah. missouri. consensual rape. that kind of thing exposes the underbelly about what this is really about which is about controlling women and their choices and not about pro life. that's a whole other debate, i realize, but i think just anecdotally, even, i've seen women who just can't believe that in 2019 this is happening and they're coming after this in this way. i think it's a motivator. >> and it's going to have real impact in 2019 among the democrats because, you know, if you watch the field of whatever, 20 something people, it's very different watching an older white male try to talk about this and a woman talk about it. i think that's going to have an issue. i cringe every time. i cringe watching david talk about it. >> oh. i hear you. we will leave it there.

>> you can say that. >> i'll excuse myself. >> you're fine. >> much more to come including joe biden's kickoff campaign in philadelphia. he is leading the polls. his deputy campaign manager will join us after the break. puty cal join us teafr the break. it's tough to quit smoking cold turkey. so chantix can help you quit slow turkey. along with support, chantix is proven to help you quit. with chantix you can keep smoking at first and ease into quitting so when the day arrives, you'll be more ready to kiss cigarettes goodbye. when you try to quit smoking, with or without chantix, you may have nicotine withdrawal symptoms. stop chantix and get help right away if you have changes in behavior or thinking, aggression, hostility, depressed mood, suicidal thoughts or actions, seizures, new or worse heart or blood vessel problems, sleepwalking, or life-threatening allergic and skin reactions. decrease alcohol use. use caution driving or operating machinery. tell your doctor if you've had mental health problems. the most common side effect is nausea. talk to your doctor about chantix.

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philadelphia. time magazine's washington correspondent writes since he joined the field of democratic presidential contenders, vice president joe biden has worn the mantle of front-runner comfortably. the latest polling from fox news giving the forms vice president a sizable lead over his competitors. he stands at 35%. and in a head to head matchup with president trump, the same fox news poll shows him beating trump in the national election. his campaign chairman is joining me now. >> today you'll hear from joe biden that we have to come together. what we have in the white house now is a divider in chief,

looking to separate people. what we're going to hear about today is government that has people's backs, that's about finding consensus and getting things done to move forward. you're going to hear an articulation today for him, a vision for a different kind of america. >> help us, i was reading fill elliott's piece in time magazine. what is the end result of that? how is it a different kind of campaign than we saw waged in 2016? >> what you'll hear from joe biden is a fundamental belief that our best days lie ahead. he has middle class roots himself, who knows what it's like to lay in bed and worry about whether you're going be able to pay for health insurance, how you're going to put your kids through college. he's somebody who fundamentally upside that experience and that's something that i think

americans can relate to. and so you're rg goal to hear from him a strong vision of rebuilding the backbone of this country. to make sure that everybody gets to come along. that is a core motivating value for him. that is something that has motivated him his entire life. he has always fought abuse of power from working people and regular people. that's something you'll hear from him throughout this campaign. >> how is the candidate going to earn votes going forward here? how much does that phrase get thrown around, inevitable, as you look at the campaign going forward? >> nobody -- look, nobody is going to work harder to win votes than joe biten pup you've seen him out over the first three weeks of this campaign. he's been in nevada if, nevada, iowa, pennsylvania, south carolina. nobody is going to work harder.

nobody is going to do more to listen to voters, to talk about his ideas, his solutions. so i think you will see nobody working harder on the campaign trail than joe biden. >> how much people do you expect to come to philadelphia for this rally today? >> the site will hold about 2,000 people, so something in that area. but we're excited about the energy here and we think we think it will be a great event. >> thank you for your time. phillipe, i want to turn to you first and talk about how you look at what happens in 2016 and use that as a way you can see what went wrong, what didn't work in 2016 and migrate it to 2020. so let's use joe biden as the person to which we do that. what will you counsel they do differently than you guys did in 2016? >> david and i were talking about this before we came on. this motion of biden as a gaffe machine and he has to bite his

tongue, i can everyone needs to get out of joe biden's head, hopefully starting with joe biden. i mean, don't say something crazy and offensive, but let him be joe biden. donald trump just speaks. he lies when he speaks and his english is horrific and he doesn't make any sense, but he just speaks. and it comes across differently. it gets mistaken for being genuine and for being straight talk. s again, it's flat ow out lying, but i think joe biden is in the best position to do it except the political establishment tells him when he does that that it's a political gaffe and he should not do it.

>> another democratic campaign told me the other day, have you noticed that joe biden's people are keeping him on a tight leash? >> let him go. let joe be joe. >> there was the pittsburgh event. now there's the philadelphia event. how does it compare and what does that tell you about where they're going? >> it is very different, at least in size, like someone from kamala harris's rollout. her campaign had a different setting, oakland, california, compared to where they are in downtown philly which the campaign manager or deputy campaign manager said only holds 2,000 people. what's interesting to me, when i was talking with the campaign yesterday about what to expect from his speech was that they were talking, obviously, what kate said, but focussing on how the presidency is more than just being about your with base and how president trump is just a president for his base, he's dividing everyone else.

obviously they're talking about unity and the middle class. i'm not spec him to have policy proposals in the third week of his campaign. i've curious to see if joe biden does that. >> you have written about this. how is that going to cultivate out here in the next couple on of weeks? >> joe biden has more baggage than a 747 going back to his position of busing, his vote for the iraq war which is actually a complicated issue. but, to me, what's interesting is what we just heard. that was not rhetoric for a democratic primary. that was rhetoric for a general

election. i was privileged enough to have a few private conversations with president obama and he always talked about as he saw the presidency of being beyond his own base and he had to work for people who he knew didn't support him. and we heard biden and his campaign echoing that sentiment. you have a democratic primary electorate that is looking sometimes at oh biden saying you didn't take the republicans serious enough. so here we have biden taking that approach versus almost every other person in the primary, and that's a pretty big divide and sort of a big concept. >> if we had sat here lee months ago and said what do you think people are looking for? you would not miss old, white male voted for baggage, you

wouldn't do that. and the fact that he's come out and he's at high 30s, in that area, he's turned it on its head. there's something about him that people think he is the best shot. unfortunately for him, the election is not tomorrow. >> his speech tomorrow at 1:00. my colleague is going to interview beto o'rourke on her program in the next hour right here on msnbc. up ahead, he is going all in on the president's unfounded claims of spying while keeping the allegations alive. attorney general bill barr and his investigation into the origins of the russia investigation, next. origins of the russia investigation, next. alright, let's get going! and you want to make sure to aim it. i'm aiming it. ohhhhhhh! i ordered it for everyone. [laughing] (dad vo) we got the biggest subaru to help bring our family together. i'm just resting my eyes. (dad vo) even though we're generations apart.

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are you comfortable using those words, witch-hunt, hoax? >> i used what words i used. and it was an investigation. but i think if i was falsely accused, i would be comfortable saying it was a witch hunted. >> attorney general bill barr continuing to defend president trump. in an interview with fox news, he told "the wall street journal" the review too lead to rule changes. meanwhile, the mueller report remains redacted. and bill barr responded to that with a joke this week. we saw house speaksy nancy pelosi at an event on capitol hill, he asked her if she had

handcuffs. and pelosi smiled and indicated that the house sergeant of arms was present at the ceremony should an arrest be necessary. bill barr chuckled and walk away. let me get a sense from you on where we are with all of this about the frustration among democrats, they can't get documents, they can't get principals on capitol hill to testify. >> we're in a bad place. one of the reasons is we're not talking about the thing itself. what happened in 2016? russia attacked the election. during that attack, trump campaign people were signaling to russia this they wouldn't mind russia intervention and during that attack, they came out and falsely said it wasn't

happening. this all signaled to moscow that trump didn't mind. we're not talking about that. we're talking about obstruction issues, issues about turning things over, and bill barr is out there saying no, the real thing is how this investigation began. not what it produced, but how it began. so i think trump and the republicans have turned circles around the democrats and have turned this whole story upside down and it's become a process story. we're fighting over who is going to testify where and -- >> mimi, walter dellinger had a piece, i think it was in "the washington post" this week, along the lines of what you're talking about. that is democrats are talking about the redactions, they're talking about what they don't have, and that obscures or

prevents us from talking about what is central to this investigation, what is in that two-volume report. >> 100%. and i agree with david 100%. i agree with walter dellinger. i'll add on to that that we're not even talking about the important obstructive conduct we should be talking about which is in the mueller report. we're not even talking about volume two which is the president of the united states engaging in conduct that it would be a strong case that any prosecutor would have a pretty easy time winning in front of a jury. it is serious blatantly obstructive conduct. mueller didn't take it that way because he's mueller. but as a former prosecutor, i can say that. and the focus is not on that. it's on this legal drama that is playing out that the republicans are almost enjoying letting it linger. we need to get the focus back to

the conduct. i guess there are different ways to do that. but i, like many, and am increasingly saying the only way i can see to do it when you have this kind of an attorney general is to have impeachment hearings. you don't have to impeach him, but have the hearings because you need that weapon, that tool to get the information to the american public. >> you can have those hearings. i don't think you have to call them impeachment hearings, but you can bring up others to talk about trump dealing secretly with russia while campaigning. you can bring in michael flynn to talk about obstruction. you've got rick gates. this is what the democrats have not done yet. how did watergate become the big story? they could start telling the obstruction story and the russian story this way. they need to make it a

narrative. >> we're going to come back here in just a moment. up next on "up," the 2020 candidate would says the race could come down to climate change and sit with jay incidencely on the all-important stay of the iowa race. politicians and the pastry play, just after the break. d the past, just after the break woman: (on phone) discover. hi. do you have a travel card? yep. our miles card. earn unlimited 1.5 miles and we'll match it at the end of your first year. nice! i'm thinking about a scuba diving trip. woman: ooh! (gasp) or not. you okay? yeah, no, i'm good. earn miles. we'll match 'em at the end of your first year. i have heart disease, watch what i eat, take statins, but still struggle to lower my ldl bad cholesterol. which means a heart attack or stroke. could strike without warning, pulling me away from everything that matters most. (siren)

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jay insly is running for president on climate change. this week, we spend a lot of time talking about the subject, but i wanted to hear him talk about a few other issues on which he's focused. health care, immigration and the economy. washington has raised its minimum wage and is home to many companies including amazon, google and microsoft. >> do you remember when donald trump said trade wars were easy to win and he was going to make china pay for everything? man, was he wrong. there's people in iowa that can't deliver their soybeans and corn, people in washington state losing jobs like crazy selling exports to markets. and the reason this is not going well is because of the

incompetence of donald trump who has no end game in this regard. look, we all know that we have to bring pressure on china. i've been involved in that for decades. but if you're going to bring pressure on china, it's better to have the rest of the world with you, to have an alliance. donald trump has burned every bridge with every potential ally in this trade effort that we possibly could have. that is one of the reasons he has not been successful to date. so i would much prefer to have a person who wants to be strong in a trade effort against china rather than weak. and he has weakened the united states. he has no end game. that's why even republican senators are criticizing his mindlessness right now. and i hope that we do better and i believe we will with a new president. >> are the a proud progressive? >> i think that's a fair statement, but more importantly, an accomplished progressive.

one who gets things done where the rubber meets the road. not just one who talks about it, but has brought the victory to home. it's interesting, when i listen to the other aspirants for this position, virtually everything they say they want to do, i've actually done. i've bread it home. i heard other candidates say we need teacher pay raises. i brought it home to average 12% for our teachers. i hear to say we need to raise the minimum wage. i've raised the minimum wage to the highest in the united states. >> how should democrats be talking about immigration in this campaign? >> i think democrats should talk the way i've been talking about it, which is to recognize that diversity is a strength. the law should be followed and donald trump needs to be made a flip in history in part because of this issue. and i have been standing up

against his hate-filled rhetoric and divisiveness since day one. i was the first governor to stand up against his muslim ban. it was based on fear. it is the american tradition, it is one of the things we should be proudest about to helping those who have left the havoc ott other lappeds that are in crisis. i started this career in a republican district, an agricultural community where i saw the hard working people were the basis of our agricultural economy. and it is maddening to me that we don't have a person that doesn't respect that work. we have to recognize a wall that is a person vendetta is not a solution. >> you talk about him being a blip in history.

how concerned are you about that that the policies are going to have a long legacy after he leaves office? >> i think if we have a nominee with a track record of progressive success, like i have had who says i am going to cut donald trump off right at the ankle. he thinks he has an ace card in the hole of a decent economy. you know who has the best economy in the united states? it's the state of washington. i'm going to show him what a real economy looks like where people get decent wages. he's so proud of our economy, but you know what? half the people in the united states haven't had a raise in two decades except in washington state where we've raised our minimum wage, where we have the fastest wage growth in the united states. we are growing clean energy jobs in part because of my leadership on clean energy. i will show donald trump what a good economy actually looks like and that's the state of

washington. so i think if we lead with leadership around around that central message to cut him off at the ankles, we will be doing just fine. >> governor, thank you. >> thank you. don't forget to vote. >> i want to thank cynthia, the owner of that restaurant for providing the kre innabons. i want to go back to immigration. it's an interesting case that he was the first to come out against it pass governor of the state of washington. how are democrats talking about immigration? he says he wants to be out there talking about it. i must confess, i found it difficult to get him off climate. are you seeing the makings of a cohesive message on immigration when it comes to the democrats that you're listening to as you cover the campaign? >> not totally. it's not that they're not talking about it. castro has come out with an immigration plan and he has a comprehensive proposal and that's i think in part because of his background and when i've traveled with him, voters are

always asking him about his immigration plan. some have gone so far as to ask presidential candidates whether or not they would declare a national emergency on something like climb change and the state of immigration. i think that democrats, especially with this new immigration proposal that president trump is backing will have to come one a way to deal with it. and i think they will be in a much better position to talk about president trump even with this new plan. but it is something that voters are asking about and i think it is something that they want an actual plan for, not just yes, we are open to immigrants and yes, we want more lax border security. >> i asked him about trade, as well. yes, those tariffs are left in place after this deal was hatched, left in place for many months afterward.

>> it was one of the pillars he ran and won on, especially in that upper midwest area which remains key to his re-election. and the question is whether he can continue to speak and lie and say we're winning the trade war, this is for the best. or whether he'll be held accountable for the difference. he was saying a lot of things that people didn't know if they were true or not or they gave them the benefit of the doubt. they excused the way he was saying it because he's a showman. now there's a record. so when someone who voted for him in 2016 is sitting there and says he promised me he would get rid of trade wars, he would bring jobs back, what did he do in four years? the problem is we now have someone who will lie about it.

it's very hard to lie about economics and statistics. he's going to do it. the question is can the democrats convince or make sure people realize that it's lies and you know whether jobs are coming back. don't listen to him tell you that this is the best economy in american history when you are in the market. >> hot metal spikes are just the tip of what donald trump has proposed for immigration. it is dead on arrival and why that may be my design. on arriv that may be my design. nooooo... quick, the quicker picker upper! bounty picks up messes quicker and is 2x more absorbent than

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this is "up." president trump's rollout of a new immigration system fell flat. democrats said it was dead on arrival and the president's own party is not for the plan. but it was not about passing legislation as much as it was about giving republicans something to run on.

>> our proposal fulfills our sacred duty to those living here today while ensuring america remains a welcoming country to immigrants joining us tomorrow.. we want immigrants coming in. we cherish the open door we want to create for our country but a big proportion of those must come in through merit and skill. >> cherish that open door. it is rare for the president to use the phrase open door. amid new tent cities being erected and then moved to south florida. >> jared kushner who is toiling

in the darkness somewhere on any proposal. your reaction to what we saw or heard about. we didn't see very much. >> the idea that jared has anything to do with this, you read the stories about how he goes to the hill to brief republican lawmakers, ee se essentially his support group and they laugh when he walks up. it is tough to say this with a straight face. everyone has these seering images of children in cages away from their parents and he's talking about an open door. i don't know what that achieves. his base doesn't care, the rest of us don't fall for it.

what itch is he trying to scratch that easy auto like, oh, good, i have an immigration plan now? >> a 2020 reelection plan. >> this is something he's clearly delivering for them to talk about. >> something more palatable for republicans to talk about but as we've pointed out, there are no real details for this plan, no one believes how us talking about having open doors. the senior officials who briefed supporters on this plan talked a little bit and said, look, we want democrats to come to the table on this. if they don't come to the table on this, then we'll have something to run on in 2020. then it is like, okay. nobody is running against them. >> president trump is not interested in government or

policy or getting things done. you see this on the chaos when they are talking about iran or venezuela. >> on the health care bill, he said he didn't give a you know when on the detail. the reason he doesn't want a war is because it is too much work. he doesn't care about the details. he cares about the performance. let's give republicans some better rhetoric they can use in 2020 if they care to. next time he goes out on a rally and people shout kill him, kill him. he'll be going, well, good idea but i can't do it. it was a spoe for that reason. there wasn't one policy that has mattered. >> one thing we do know is that nothing brings out trump's most

radic radical self is immigration. we mentioned how we think he's thinking about using immigrants as public pawns. i think that speech. i don't know how jared kushner had more influence but i don't think it will last long. >> about that point in this incidence, how the president wanted to paint the wall a matt black so it would have more heat and have spikes on top. >> did you make that up? >> no. it was a piece. >> god help us. >> he what talk through these things about what kind of paint to use and then you hear the phrase, sacred duty. how startling was it to hear what he said there? >> there isn't a word for it.

hypocrisy doesn't even cover it. the words coming out of his mouth in this context and these cruel policies he really wants to put into place. if he were not in some tiny way checked in by some of the people around him. we are hearing that now, not enough. it is just rhetoric. what comes out is his true self in the rallies where he believes that's why it is more comfortable. it seems to be what he really wants. he's fix ated on it. >> in that early part of the campaign, they said, we can't get him to focus on any policy except one thing, the wall. we spend time going over details on the wall like the finish and the spikes. he's a builder.

that's what he cares about. particularly early in the campaign, he would bring it to the wall. >> my thanks to you. up next, joy reid one-on-one with democratic contender beto o'rourke. we'll be right back. did any of you hear the "bundle your home and auto" part? -i like that, just not when it comes out of her mouth. -yeah, as a mother, i wouldn't want my kids to see that. -good mom. -to see -- wait. i'm sorry. what? -don't kids see enough violence as it is? -i've seen violence. -maybe we turn the word "bundle" into a character, like mr. bundles. -top o' the bundle to you. [ laughter ] bundle, bundle, bundle. -my kids would love that. -yeah. bundle, bundle, bundle. with peak season berries, uniqcreamy avocado. and a dressing fit for a goddess. come taste what a salad should be. and with panera catering, there's more to go around. panera. food as it should be.

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listen to your mom, knuckleheads. hand em over. hand what over? video games, whatever you got. let's go. you can watch videos of people playing video games in the morning. is that everything? i can see who's online. i'm gonna sweep the sofa fort. well, look what i found. take control of your wifi with xfinity xfi. let's roll! now that's simple, easy, awesome. xfinity xfi gives you the speed, coverage and control you need. manage your wifi network from anywhere when you download the xfi app today. >> that does it for me. thank you for watching.

"am joy" with joy reid starts ride now. >> the whole second half of the report was about obstruction of justice. multiple instances before and after his guilty plea where either he or his attorney received indication before congress. a personal aside here. how is the president not being impeached for obstruction of justice right now? >> good morning. that darn good question came after we learned just how far the trump's white house and an unnamed person went out to the short-lived national security advisor and that a federal judge has ordered the release of transcripts to prove it. indeed, as you pour your coffee this morning, the president of the united states is refusing all