that does it for me. thank you very much for watching. "a.m. joy" with joy reid starts right now. do you believe that a woman has a right to decide the fate of her own body when it comes to issues such as whether or not to have an abortion? >> well, the challenge is there is that there are two lives involved, so where i believe that we should stay out of people's lives, i don't believe that people's lives should be taken. so the real -- and it's a complex issue because one has to

think, well, there is a host body and that host body has to have a certain amount of rights because at the end of the day it is that body that carries this entire other body to term, but there is an additional life there. >> good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy." on tuesday organizers plan to lead tens of thousands of women in protests around the country demanding that american women be treated as full and free citizens and not as host bodies as florida house speaker josé oliva repeatedly referred to pregnant women. he did later apologize for using that term. but the sentiment that he expressed, that the priority when it comes to women's reproduction is not the woman, but that she be made to give birth, forced to give birth at the direction of the state and by extension under the complete control of men is not something republicans are exactly trying to hide anymore. gone are the exceptions for rape

and incest. gone is the pretense that these restrictions are about protecting health and not seeking to end a woman's right to choose once and for all. donald trump's complete surrender of judicial nominations to the christian right in exchange for their unyielding support, his outsourcing of seating more than 100 federal judges and counting, plus two supreme court justices to mitch mcconnell and the heritage foundation, those things have emboldened the christian far right to go for broke and to try and overturn roe versus wade once and for all by passing draconian anti-abortion laws in republican-controlled states and teeing up brett kavanaugh to cast the deciding vote to end abortion rights. in short, women are just host bodies according to the gop. feel free to furl your brow and express your disappointment at any time, senator susan collins. joining me now he will ease

hoeing, liz win stead creator of the daily show, defense attorney midwin charles, georgia state representative erika thomas and maria kumar. thank you for being here. liz, i'm going to take our dinner conversation, we were out the other night chatting -- >> is that what you call it? >> railing, chatting, whatever you want to call t the thing is that this conversation about women's liberty, i would have to say, has come to a point where republicans aren't veiling anymore the idea that women should maybe go to jail, which donald trump said, that women really shouldn't have any self-determination, really they just need to be under the control of men. >> i think for me and what we talked about so profoundly is this is not new. i formed an organization in 2012 because in 2010 i started watching these laws happen, i started watching state legislators say things that were

aberrant. you look at georgia and you are like, oh, my god, georgia now. no. in 2012 a georgia state rep literally compared pregnant people to heifers saying why do we have to allow for women to be able to have miscarriages or abortions if they don't have a viable fetus because his heifer was fine after it delivered a stillborn. >> then what is the difference between a woman and a heifer. >> that's right. that's just one example of the consistent putting it back into pregnant people as these hosts for pregnancies. >> let me go to erica thomas on that, representative from atlanta. georgia kicked this thing off with this fetal -- i guess -- i don't remember the name of the law, but it was essentially one of the most draconian in the country until alabama came along and topped it. can you just talk about the process? did you feel like the national -- the national attention was enough on what georgia was doing in the run up?

>> no, i don't think we had enough national attention. it's funny that she says they compared pregnant women to heifers. i'm now seven months pregnant and to be a pregnant legislator and to be on that house floor and to be arguing with these people that have no idea what it's like to carry a child and to try to say they have the right to choose, you know, it was bothering. in georgia it's a scary, scary thing that we are doing this when it's a national foster care month, and i went up to each and every one of the representatives and asked them if you are going to pass a bill like this are you going to adopt? are you going to take in foster kids from all over georgia when we doubled our numbers from 7,000 in one year to the next year 15,000 foster kids? so it's scary what they're doing out here. we're trying to find solutions to problems and they're creating more problems. >> let me ask you quickly to stay with you, representative, did anybody, any of the men -- i

assume most of them were men who decided that they needed to push this law through for their own religious reasons, did any of them talk about also increasing funding to take care of women while they were pregnant or take care of children, give children education, maybe pass the extension of medicaid so that people could not die from poverty and disease that maybe children should have a good public school education? do any of those people express any concern about those christian values? do they care about immigrant kids, for instance, in cages, anything like that? >> no, they did not. they did not. we are the number one state for maternal mortality rate. they didn't pay any attention to that while proposing this bill. it's a scary, scary thing. the other thing s yes, they put some clauses in the bill, but they were crazy clauses. one of the clauses is that a six week -- your six week pregnant you're able to drive in the hov lane, you're able to claim your child on your taxes and get child support, but does that help the maternal mortality

rate? no. i go he is they were trying to apiece the democrats with clauses like that, but we want to be able to choose what we can do with our bodies. those things do not help. >> medicine, every woman wants to drive in the hov lane, you get there a lot faster. what else could you maybe do? could you order a table for two at a restaurant? >> and how can you tell me that i'm pregnant? i can be driving in the hov lane, how do you say, oh, ma'am, you get a ticket and i say, oh, wait a minute, i'm pregnant. how do i prove that to the officer? >> maybe they are going to have to dna test every woman at all times and you have to be prepared to give your blood at all times to every man who asks for it. >> ultrasounds in the car. >> she brings up a very good point which i think is important that we all step back and look at the very beginning of all of this, at least with respect to roe versus wade. the supreme court of the united states in 1973 decided that case, it was a landmark decision and it really changed how women would be able to control their

lives. in that decision the court said that women have under the 14th amendment and the due process clause a fundamental right to privacy. that that clause provides a fundamental right to privacy so that they could make the decision for themselves about whether or not to carry a pregnancy to full term. they broke it down into three different trimesters. so no court could legislate that a woman could not have an abortion during the first trimester, but here you see all of these laws being passed in the first trimester at a time when most with em do not even know that they're pregnant. it's clear that these legislatures don't even understand a woman's body. that's one thing. but it's clear that this is also a tactic to kind of race to the supreme court because they know they now have kavanaugh on the bench. >> and they know that they can get rid of it. you've been going to these states, liz, as they've been teeing up these laws. tell us about that. >> i've been to every single one of these, i've been to alabama four times, georgia twice, mississippi five times, kentucky twice. the activists on the ground, and

this is super important to realize, is that the activists on the ground are doing incredible work and a lot of this work legislatively, the abortion funds helping women are run by tremendously bad ass, if i can, women of color. so when these things happen, when people are like what can i do, what can i do? the first thing you can do is google that state and find out where their abortion fund is, find out where those pre productive justice organizations are on the ground and donate to them first. support them first. >> elise, what is the action plan because one must presume that brett kavanaugh is of the same sort of vain as william barr. donald trump nominates people when he knows what he's going to get. he's already given the religious right the courts, that's the exchange he made in exchange for their unwavering support. we have to assume brett kavanaugh votes with that side. if roe goes down what is pro choice america going to do?

>> let's start with right now. we are seeing unprecedented levels of energy. let's be clear, many of the gop are like the dog that caught the very dangerous car. they sort of, you know, have surrendered their party to an extraordinarily radical minority and they are actually worried about the outcome. you saw donald trump this morning trying to distance himself from the no exceptions rule, you saw ronna mcdaniel tweet about it as well and the problem is they broke it, they own it, right? cory gardner is trying to run away from this. no, you can't have nominated these judges, you can't have voted for restrictions in your own state, you can't have supported legislation in federal congress and now say that you are not part and parcel of the problem. but they have awakened an enormous amount of energy in this country. we would our coalitions of groups including liz announced a 50 state day of action on friday morning. as of this morning we have 250

actions around the country. there is so much energy on this. you're correct, joy, that tuesday is just the beginning. we have got to make them examples. we have to make them have political consequences as well as, as liz so rightly says, supporting activism on the ground so that we can protect these women and dig out of the holes. i'm from texas, i'm very aware of the impact on the ground and -- but political consequences, they have most of the country opened to them on this and they're trying to confuse voters, but it's not going to work, women are organized and we are going to fight back. >> you can tell that the republicans writ large the ones in washington are a little freaked out. this is what they've been seeing up the whole time. mitch mcconnell is like only far right judges are going on the supreme court. thank you. now that they're there, susan collins who said she had total faith in brett kavanaugh, she's like, oh, i still have faith that he won't uphold the alabama

law. it's a terrible law says susan collins who put brett kavanaugh on the supreme court. it's very extreme. it's very extreme. her brow was so if you are road. you have donald trump claiming i don't think women should go to prison but he told chris matthews they should. you have pat robertson -- let's play that sound real quick. take a listen. >> i think alabama has gone too far. it's an extreme law and they want to challenge roe v. wade, but my humble view is that this is not the case we want to bring to the supreme court because i think this one will lose. >> i have to throw my papers now. >> i mean, the fact that we have pat robertson slightly in agreement just tells you how turned around the world is. but let's be very clear, the only person that is responsible for a tomorrow's pregnancy that is men. men are responsible 100% for women's pregnancy. so where are they part of this

conversation? and what is happening across these states is basically providing an opportunity for women that have finally demonstrated their voice. let's not forget for the very first time we have over 126 women in our legislative chambers, in congress, representing us because we voted our hearts out this past midterm and what they're trying to do is they're trying to subject gate women, saying your place is not at the table. we also know that when women come to terms with unwanted pregnancy it also subjects them to poverty. we in the country go around the world telling people that the best way to get a third world country out of third world is to make sure that women have access to i a borings, that they have access to healthcare, access to education. this is subjugating american women. they pass a law that says an 11-year-old victim will have to take her term to pregnancy

because she was a rape victim but because she has a viable heartbeat is not constitutional, it's not our country. abortion is legal in this country. we must make sure we embrace that. it's not that we're talking about 50% of this country, we're talking about people who vote, who contribute to this economy and who are humans and should have the opportunity to own their decisions and make it a very personal decision. >> and be full citizens. if you are a full citizen you are in control yourself. if there's anything where the state is telling you what you can and cannot do and telling an 11-year-old -- it's dangerous. >> it could till her. >> that's not full citizenship. >> and shame on that grown men. >> sorry, we are not going to be in the 18th, 19th or 16th century. not willingly, y'all. we're going to bring you guys all back because apparently we have to fight for women's rights

all over again, we are going to have do the 19th amendment again. >> we're ready this time, joy. next up, a republican congressman, get this, he actually read the phillip mena, that's amazing, a republican read it and he's willing to say what even some democrats won't say. keep it right there. ven some det say. keep it right there. helps keep me feeling dry, how will they know i worked hard? i've gotta make stuff harder. ♪ there, that's hard. ♪

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and anger are not a strategy. we need real strategies to deal with the situation. when people say, well, impeach the president, i think that's halfway of what they're talking about. they're talking about removing the president but we are not there yet. we're talking about having an inquiry to decide whether or not impeachment is an appropriate course of action. >> while the democrats in washington agonize over what to do about a president whose administration is acting a z if congress barely exists for the first time a republican has joined 2020 democrats like elizabeth warren, julian castro and beto o'rourke in two two things that lysle trumpists have been unwilling to do. justin amash broke ranks in a series of tweets where he declared that he, a, actually read the phillip mena, actually read it and b, in doing so he was convinced that donald trump has engaged in impeachable conduct. see, that wasn't hard at all. if a republican is finally willing to say it why are so many democratic lawmakers hemming and what youing and

agoniziag agonizin agonizing. joining me now is metty hassan. i'm holding the tweet storm from justin amash and there's nothing in here that has not been said umpteen times on this program by attorneys, by, you know, all the smart lawyers that we bring out here, by you. how is it revolutionary -- i'm sorry -- how is it a revelation that somebody just reads the report and comes to a logical conclusion, but the democrats are like -- >> this is the in a i tour of the trump era, joy, that we've lowered the bar on everything. someone does something that's basically totally normal and we go, bravo, the number of liberals on twitter over the last 24 hours who have been saying credit -- i include myself -- credit to justin amash for doing this, credit to this cobs man for saying this. why, though? why is it such an amazing revelation as you point out. so many people have been saying where are all the other republicans? why can't other republicans say

what justin amash has said. i think the bigger question is why can't other democrats say what justin amash has said? congratulations to justin amash for reading all 448 pages of the report and coming to the conclusion i think more than 700 medical prosecutors came to. >> i think it's 1,000. >> it was 600 on day one, 700 on day two, republicans and democrats who say there is a clear case that trump would be indicted on obstruction of justice charges were he a private citizen, were there not this department of justice policy saying you can't indict a sitting president. the phillip mena lays out i think ten cases of obstruction of justice involving this president. so, yes, the bar is very clear, a mash says the threshold has been crossed. he makes three very important points in my view, number one, he points out that actually you don't need to engage in criminal behavior to be impeached which we know, which is what lindsey graham was saying during the clinton era but doesn't say anymore. he says most democrats and republicans haven't read the report, which i totally agree

with you. you can tell from the statements they put out. the senate democrat who came out first to call for impeachment, senator elizabeth warren, did so after reading the whole report in detail as the good law professor ses she is. the third point is he takes on this argument that you shouldn't normalize impeachment, it's something very, very special. he says in a partisan polarized climate the risk is not that you use impeachment too much, it's that you never used impeachment. the founders created impeachment for a reason, use it. >> i agree with you that -- and i think i said it, too, yesterday, it's almost like congratulating your children for cleaning their room. >> exactly. >> you're supposed to clean your room. you don't get allowance for cleaning your room. >> it's what we do with trump when he reads from a teleprompter. wow, he's so presidential. >> today he became president. i mean, mehdi, the thing that has been confounding that i don't understand, i genuinely don't, i spoke with congressman jamie ras kin and i do not understand how democrats can

both say this president is committing outrageous conduct, he is a threat to the republic, everything he's doing threatens the separation of powers, and then also say but we need a process to figure out if he should be impeached. when reading the phillip mena convinced a republican just having read it that we're already there. >> it convinced a republican, it convinced elizabeth warren, it convinced julian castro, more than a thousand federal prosecutors, anyone with eyes and a brain. >> what do you think they're afraid of? >> i think they're afraid of their own shadow. we've seen that on many issues. on this issue here is where i think the calculation is on their part, they're worried about the backlash were they to do this and they don't get it through. this he don't have a majority in the senate to get it through. they certainly don't have two-thirds and they're worried about the backlash in the election. they say this this will help trump, this will rile up his base. number one, his base doesn't need any more riling up, this is a base that shouted lock her up during 2016, still shouts lock her up. he doesn't need impeachment to

rile them up, he has omar, kaepernick, all sorts of red meat he can throw at them. number two, there is this argument that there is a cost to impeaching. what it doesn't take into account is there is a cost to not impeaching. we saw that just a few days ago when trump tweeted out that there are traitors who tried to investigate me, he called it treason on the part of the fbi. you're seeing this calculated attempt no you to delegitimize any institutions that dare investigate or try to hold this presidency at account. with a bully like that you give him a pass there is a massive cost. >> and there's also the cost to expanding the powers of the presidency. i remember during the george w. bush administration one of the reasons that many of us were opposed to the patriot act is the idea that typically institutions don't give back power. so having given the president broad sweeping power and the unitary executive people who are backed, the john hughes of the world who can say we can do torture, expand presidential power, folks on my end were saying if you give them that

power they're never going to give it back. congress has beginning power back and they're dumping it on the white house lawn, but presidents don't give back power. i wonder if democrats have taken into account that the next donald trump might go even further. if you don't sanction with impeachment you essentially give a green light to what essentially is a monarch. >> it's not just the next donald trump it's this donald trump. he's still got over 18 months in power. you are allowing him to run over the constitution thinking i can get away with anything. i would half agree with you on the powerpoint. there is clearly a case about expanding power but the republicans are very consistent in their view. their view is that there is unlimited power for the presidency if there is a republican in the what u.s. >> right. >> when barack obama was in the white house then he was a tyrant, he was a dictator, executive orders. he can't even fill a supreme court seat. >> that's correct. >> they're consistent in their view that republican presidents and of course bill barr who is attorney general under a previous republican president who he helped to cover up a crime, the iran-contra affair,

who he helped to doll out pardons to his former colleagues. he has been consistent to be fair to barr in his view of the constitution. >> i am officially out of time. i have to add this because you sort of -- you write for an organization that really channels a lot of what the progressive movement is thinking. when i listen to joe biden yesterday and he's talking about unifying the country and getting beyond the divisions as if you could snap your figure and your biddeniness makes it go away, i wonder if the democrats are having an opportunity cost that a lot of progressives who elected people like aoc, these hard charging young women, eye yana presley are going to think we gave you power and now you won't use it. if that might dampen enthuse for voters in 2020. >> it's such a good point. this is the danger of obsessing over trump. we're going to anger trump's

base. worry about your own base. worry about your own base. hillary would have won had she turned out more voters in 2016. we know that. it's important to energize your own base. a "new york times" op-ed talked about electability is about enthusiasm. who is the candidate who is going to get your work out. quickly on biden an anger. we just found out that they caged -- they separated another 1 rk 700 kids at the border. if that doesn't make you angry i don't know what does. >> yeah. indeed. mehdi hasan, it's a confounding thing, please come back and talk about it. thank you very much. have a great rest of your day. cheers. coming up next, the surprise thing the 2020 democratic candidates have in common with the 2016 republicans. more "a.m. joy" coming up. n with the 2016 rubeplicans more "a.m. joy" coming up. a chd is choosing to nurture and emotionally support children in urgent need. it's not just about opening up your home; it is also about opening up your heart. consider fostering.

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tonight a television era ends. we find out who wins the "game of thrones," whether jon snow stops sleeping with his aunty or steals her dragons and whether the show runner can come back from weakening every woman in the seven kingdoms. up next, the white walkers, sorry, i mean white -- my producers -- the white guys looking to take over our own

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democrats want to unify this nation. that's what our party has always been about. that's what it's always been about, unity. >> we have to let them know who we are. what we stand for. we choose hope over fear. truth over lies. and, yes, unity over division. >> former vice president joe

biden used his official kickoff rally in philadelphia yesterday to cast himself as the great unifier, but biden's entrance at the top of the polls and the media's obsession with the candidates who are white and male, the democratic party, by the way, now has more of them running for president hand the republican did in 2016. this raises the question of whether democrats and political journalists believe that the very diversity that defines the democratic party is in and of itself inherently dive sieve. joining me now tiffany cross, jason johnson, politics editor for theroot.com. michelle bernard president of the bernard center for women. we have to hype them up. you guys are all great. let's talk about this for a second. i will start with you, tiffany. rolling stone wrote of biden's launch yesterday and on his kickoff rally and him talking about anger being not the thing. biden coming on stage and telling america to essentially

calm down as babies are kept in cages at the border, women's rights are under assault in a ris to create the most restrictive abortion legislation, as our nation moves towards owe toautocracy is tone. what do you think? >> i completely agree. i would say, mr. vice president, for those impacted about i this president's racist, xenophobic, misogynistic policies we should be angry and so should joe biden. i don't think that tone resonates with what's happening in the country. when you look across this nation and see what's happening, and just to remind people, listen, it is a false narrative to say that trump -- or obama voters who switched to trump did so for economic reasons. that is not true. and we talked about this on your show before, joy, the number one reason these folks switched from democrat to republican in 2016 was they all held hostile views on race. there was a study, there's data to back this up, it came out of uc irvine, ucla and princeton

that showed this was the number one issue. i'm not trying to appeal to those people or resonate with those folks, i don't know how to do that. for candidates to come out and think i'm the guy who can talk to he is no folks, if you are the guy who can talk to those folks then you are not the guy who is talking to me. >> one of the reasons i wanted to do the segment was because of the piece you wrote in the root this week. it was called so many white guys. you said they are convinced that because they are white men they can somehow convert maga voters sometimes for the most ridiculous of reasons but let's be honest what they're really saying is lots of americans think we went too far with a black president than a woman running for president as a white guy i will be able to bring i think so this pack to normal. is that the sub text of these candidates or the media? >> both. the media is often just as white as the candidates. they really do believe we liked obama but that might have been too far. the problem is that it is an incredibly naive way to look at the electorate and an incredibly naive way to look at the republicans. first and foremost obama the black guy won these people over.

you don't win elections by changing people's hearts. obama didn't change one racist to being a progressive he just said my deal is better than the white dude so vote for me. many of these candidates, joe biden, pete buttigieg, bernie sanders, this he all seem to think that they can sprinkle this magical white elixir and it's going to change people's attitudes. no. have a better plan, have a better policy, have a better message and bear in behind that even when your white guy self ends up in the white house next year that doesn't mean mitch mcconnell is ever going to work with you. it's not going to say now that we're all white you can have a supreme court justice. >> there is a misunderstanding of mitch mcconnell for sure because mitch mcconnell will essentially shut down the senate if there is a democratic president. there have been republicans who have said they would hold a supreme court seat open for eight years if hillary clinton were to get elected and reelected. the republicans aren't playing the same game as the democrats are. the democrats have this idea that if they put up a nice enough guy that somehow the

republicans will snap out of it. barack obama used to even say that. the fever will break. what is the evidence that this fever will break? >> there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that it's going to break and if democrats don't learn to play tough and play dirty and play hard like republicans they are going to watch the absolute destruction of the country. democrats need to be angry, they need to think about the supreme court. republicans, if you think about it, they have been so smart in their politics from day one and everything that they said that they wanted to happen we are watching it happen a little bit at a time. it's drip, drip, drip, drip, drip and what do we see? a palatable hatred for women. as ocasio-cortez as she said last week the only thing they want to do is to -- and i'm paraphrasing here, but basically be in charge of women's bodies because the only thing they can think about is what they want from our bodies and to be completely in control of us.

i predict, joy, that it is black women who are going to decide who the next president of the united states is going to be. i think that black women are the true feminists in the country and whether it is a white man or a white woman or a black woman that they decide is going to be the democratic nominee, we will be the deciding factor because we have the anger, we understand what is at stake and we've got our eye on the supreme court. right now that is really the only thing that matters. >> tiffany, there's a thing, you know, kind of about leadership and i will ask all of you guys about that. that there is -- that there's this idea that you not only have to lead but you have to be seen leading. what donald trump has done, that even george w. bush didn't do, is he said i'm going to give you a far right supreme court and then he did it. he just said, mitch mcconnell, get me a far right supreme court. george w. bush all these guys said they are going to overturn roe v. wade, they all low key promised the far right that they would overturn roe. trump is doing it. whether or not, you know, the people in the progressive side,

really the majority of americans think what he's doing is insane he is saying i'm going to have a trade war with china, even if it destroys their own people he's doing it. there is this sense that democrats are shrinking from doing things because they are afraid it will make people mad. i don't know how that inspires people to follow you when you won't lead. >> i completely agree, joyce. this is what makes me so angry when i see folks in the media, folks who were once solidly in his base clutch their pearls every time he does something he said he would do. he said it on the campaign trail, on the debate stage and now that he's doing exactly what he said he was going to do is not the time to fien surprise. when you come to me and tell me you have to love your owe presser to convince them to vote for you, to vote in your interest, that's something i will never buy into. i would discourage anyone from buying into that. this president if nothing else has been consistent with his ridiculousness, with his racism,

with his misogyny and now at some point we think that all of a sudden these trump voters are going to switch. even when i hear people who are impacted by his ridiculous policies, you take the trade policies, for instance, now all of a sudden farmers are saying i'm not going to vote for him again. really, now? not because of kids in ijs can a, not when he called mexicans rapists and drug deal rs, not when he called kneeling nfl players sobs, now that it's impacted your life, this is when you want to break faith. this is not the voters the democrats need to go after. that is how they will become road kill if they don't grab their easter eggs and get into the fight. >> before we go because, jason, there is a sense we were talking about this in the hair and makeup room earlier, midwin and i, the democrats are the lannisters -- the democrats are the starks and the republicans are the lannisters. the democrats keep going thinking if i just make a better deal now i won't get my head chopped off and then it gets

chopped off. the republicans are the lannisters. they are like we don't care. i wonder in this "game of thrones" starks can win. >> they are going to end up dead like they have before. joe biden is saying, come on, i know you really care. she doesn't care. she doesn't care if the whole place gets burned down. the republicans would rather see this country burn than run by a party they think is one by years and black lives matter and dreamers. that is how they see the democratic party. until they realize they have to win on a better message, not that i'm this white guy from the midwest, they will lose. >> i'm going to give the last word to michelle bernard. is there a democrat in the field that has that fighting spirit that the panel that all of you guys are talking about, that's channeling leadership in a way that you think would be more effective than the unifying message of biden? >> look, the country is not

unified, we haven't been unified for a long time, we are just seeing it right now. some of my panelists will disagree with me but i will say it again, my vote is on kamala harris. i think she is the dark horse. she is the obama that we saw in 2008 and i think if we stick it out the only people that are beating her in the polls right now are bernie sanders and joe biden and i think they come with their own baggage and can we just keep saying anita hill, anita hill. she is going to haunt joe biden. >> i will say that the lesson of "game of thrones" really is that it takes a woman to win over the white walkers, it's ariya stark that gets it done not jon snow. >> which say quickly i don't think anybody on the panel is anti-camilla, we just offer analysis. >> she's saving us. she's saving me right now. >> fyi. >> that's a change. >> we're here for change. tiffany, jason and michelle, with he love you guys. next up, i will tell you why florida, florida, florida should now be florida, florida, russia.

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onmillionth order.r. ♪ there goes our first big order. ♪ 44, 45, 46... how many of these did they order? ooh, that's hot. ♪ you know, we could sell these. nah. ♪ we don't bake. ♪ opportunity. what we deliver by delivering. there was no manipulation, didn't have any effect, but there were two counties and i'm not allowed to name the counties. i signed a disclosure agreement.

i would be willing to name it for you guys, but they asked me to do that so i'm going to respect their wishes. >> it was revealed this week that russian hackers breached the election systems of two counties in florida ahead of the 2016 election, but neither the governor nor the fbi will tell us which ones. the "washington post" has reported that one of the counties is in the florida panhandle, the other remains a mystery. joining us now is mark caputo, senior writer for politico, and pam keith, democratic candidate for -- she was a democratic candidate for florida's 18th congressional district. and mark, there's a couple things here. first of all, one of the counties is washington county. do we have any hint of who the other county is and why won't the fbi let us know who these counties are? >> well, i'm going to be dangerous and tell you that we have a hint, but the hints could be wrong. informed speculation tells us it's probably a midsized county, however you define that, on the east coast of florida. if you want to speculate on the speculation, it could be brevard or volusia county. to your broader question, like why aren't they telling us? i mean, who knows? i had a 30-minute phone call

with an fbi spokeswoman on friday. she was very good, informed, intelligent, smart, funny, decent, but she's in an impossible situation because she has to sound like lewis carroll from "alice in wonderland." basical basically, she is speaking in riddles because the fbi's position is you don't have a right to know, voters, because voters aren't the victim of the russian hack of the counties. the victim are the counties themselves, and the counties can therefore disclose it, but obviously, the counties aren't. then i said, well, how about the governor? they said, well, the governor is not the victim in this case. i said, well, he's nonetheless overseeing those counties because of his secretary of state's office overseas elections. they say, well, he signed a nondisclosure agreement. well, fbi, you're the one that made him sign that. why did you do that? well, it's classified. >> wow. >> this is what we're looking at. >> it makes no sense. and pam, as somebody who's run for office in florida, what do you make of this idea that, a, they are saying that the counties are the victims, not the voters, and that we, the american people are not allowed

to know what happened, because if it happened in florida, it could have happened anywhere in the country. >> you make an excellent point, joy. the people of the state of florida were victimized by this infiltration. and i want to make a point to your viewers. florida has 67 counties, and each county has a supervisor of elections. we call it an soe. but the important thing is that every soe has access to the voter rolls of every other soe. why? because they talk to each other when they move voters from one county to another county. if i change my voter registration from palm beach county to miami-dade county, the miami-dade soe goes into palm beach county rolls and removes me and puts me on the miami-dade roll. and that's true of every single county in florida, which means if the russians got into washington county, they got into all 67 counties. at least it's possible that they could have done that.

and so, i think the voters of florida are entitled to hear what really happened, how far did it go, and were they able to access information in all those other 66 counties? >> and mark, you know, this was something that bill nelson warned about, because there are a lot of things that one could do if one could get into those rolls -- take people off the rolls, add people to the rolls. there are all sorts of things you could do once you're in there. bill nelson warned in 2018 that the people, that these county systems had been breached. he was mocked by rick scott, who wound up barely beating him to become a united states senator. what's rick scott got to say now that he literally, practically called nelson mentally unstable? >> well, rick scott's pointing to the fact that bill nelson had kind of said two things, although the scott folks are only pointing out the one thing that nelson said. nelson's problem in some respects, potentially, was one of vertenses. he said that the relations are, presence tense, in the records of the counties.

>> we don't know. we're not being told. >> right. at the time, the fbi did deny that, of course, on background. what we know now is that the russians had been in the rolls and at different times bill nelson had said that as well. now, to nelson's very, he did at least give us the first hint that this had happened. to nelson's discredit, he wasn't very clear, and when we asked him to clarify, we didn't really get that clarification. but more broadly, something was up. something happened. the press, the public, and politicians, and now politicians of both stripes on both sides of the aisle and the press and the public want to know what the hell happened. >> yep. >> and the fbi is telling us it's not their job to tell us, it's these two counties. which counties are they? well, we're not telling you. why? well, that's classified. >> it's classified. and pam keith, why should the voters of florida have confidence in ron desantis, who came up on the winning end in these elections that now people are nervous about, rick scott, who came up on the winning end of now these elections people are worried about, and donald trump obviously came up real

big. >> right. and it's not just the voters of florida, joy. the voters of the united states ought to be real concerned, because florida brings 29 electoral votes to the table in our next presidential election. and for those who do the numerology, if president trump does not win florida, it's very unlikely he gets re-elected. so, this is still very, very much in play. and more importantly, i want to pick up on something that mark said about is it classified or is it just sensitive, as i'm sure you remember, i'm a former naval office. i have a top-secret clearance. i know that you don't sign ndas when you're talking about national security secrets. you do background checks. you get clearance, you know? ndas aren't worth the paper they're written on, certainly not in trump universe as we've seen. >> happened with stormy daniels. >> right. so, the reason you only give classified information to people who have the requisite security clearance is because you've checked to see that they're worthy of the risk. just signing an nda is not

checking that they're worthy of the risk. >> thank you very much, mark caputo, pam keith. thank you guys both. we'll have you guys back. if you get more information, let us know. if you get more information, let us know. you wouldn't accept an incomplete job from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills? flonase relieves your worst symptoms including nasal congestion, which most pills don't. flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances. most pills only block one. flonase.

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i have said for over ten years of coming to these events that the declared policy of the united states of america should be the overthrow of the

knowledge regime in tehran. and that's why before 2019, we here will celebrate in tehran! thank you very much. >> welcome back to "a.m. joy." john bolton, president trump's national security adviser, is hardly a stranger to threatening middle east countries with war. he did it with iraq after 9/11, and he's been spoiling for a war with iran for decades as well. and now, with yet another republican unschooled in foreign affairs sitting in the oval office, bolton seems to be having his way again, as the u.s. ramps up its military assets in the gulf region in response to what it calls -- what it claims are iranian threats. the recent escalation with tehran, we presume, has nothing to do with donald trump's mounting legal troubles in the wake of the mueller report. bolton is trump's third national security adviser, successor to h.r. mcmaster and now convicted felon michael flynn. he's one of the most hawkish foreign policy fixtures in the

country, who as early as 2002 was pitching iran as a threat to the united states on par with north korea and iraq, a notion that he put in print in a "new york times" op ed in 2015 entitled "to stop iran's bomb, bomb iran." and now, donald trump, who ran for president on the idea of getting the u.s. out of all of the foreign wars, has put bolton in charge of america's iran strategy. and apparently, that's not enough for mr. bolton, who according to "the new york times" -- "has quietly voiced frustration with the president, viewing him as unwilling to push for changes in a region that he has long seen as a quagmire." so, we can assume bolton wasn't too pleased when the boss sent this. >> mr. president, are we going to war with iran? >> hope not. >> joining me now is treata parsy, former president of the national iranian american council and author of "losing an enemy: obama, iran and the

triumph of diplomacy." malcolm nance, author of "the plot to destroy democracy," mehdi hasan of the intercept and colonel lawrence wilkerson, former chief of staff to secretary of state colon powell. i want to start with you, because i feel like we're watching a rerun. you have john bolton, who's been spoiling for war with iran for a very long time, in charge of our national security policy. i'm not even sure, do we have a secretary of defense yet or an acting like a boeing execute? and you have donald trump who doesn't know a whole heck of a lot about foreign policy or the world, which was the situation we had with george w. bush. are we setting -- are we being set up for a rerun? >> i think we are, joy. there are two possibilities here. bolton is the being, i've got my finger on the trigger rocket man for donald trump, trying to intimidate rouhani and zarif and the other leadership in iran and then he's going to get negotiations because they're going to beg for them, or we're

looking at, as you described quite well, another run-up to another catastrophic war in the middle east. let me say that there's a bigger picture here, though. most of your viewers will be familiar with hbo's long-running show "game of thrones," which is coming to its end right now, one of the most-watched shows in tv history. and at the last episode, the female heroine, is sperned by jon snow, the leader of the male side, if you will, and she says, okay, if it's not love, then it's going to be fear. and then she rides her dragon and burns almost everyone in the movie -- men, women, children and everyone else. >> spoiler, dude. >> that was her foreign policy. that's america's foreign policy today, fear. >> yeah. it's fear. and you know, trida, let me go to you quickly, because when the united states invaded iraq -- i have no military experience or background, but i thought it was a disastrous and terrible idea. you can't tell people they are

going to come in and liberate them when they haven't asked to be liberated by you. and iraq was a relatively smaller country compared to iran. can we just throw a map up real quick? sometimes i think americans forget. i mean, iran is a much bigger, country with a much more developed military. it is in population double the size of iraq. it is a country with a long tradition. it used to be an empire, right? it was a persian empire. this is a country that is not iraq, and iraq was a debacle. the idea that we could somehow invade iran and that it would somehow go better than invading iraq to me seems like madness. what do you think? >> oh, it certainly is madness. and not only should we look at the size of the country and the population, but also keep one other thing in mind -- saddam hussein made a big mistake because he thought that he could defeat the united states by having a conventional war -- two standing armies fighting each other. no country can defeat the united

states in such a war. the iranians have prepared for more than 30 years to fight the united states unconventionally, as asymmetrically, in case the united states invades. and this actually brings me to a third possibility, adding on to what larry was talking about, which is that there is also a possibility that once this comes to the brink, actually, trump will pull back. and i suspect this is perhaps what happened just this last week, because as his intelligence was showing that the iranians were putting missiles on boats, which bolton tried to portray as an iranian aggression but actually was the iranians preparing to counterstrike, if the united states attacked it -- i think that may have spooked trump, because trump has been diluted by netanyahu, but bolton and others to think iran is just like syria, a country you can hit with a couple of missiles, you can defeat their military and they will never dare to fight back. well, trump just saw based on the intelligence that the iranians were absolutely ready to fight back and defend themselves, if the united states attacked. and i think that may have actually caused trump to walk back. >> i mean, mehdi, i feel like the easiest sort of sale to

make, unfortunately, is a war on a muslim country, right? because american -- islamophobia is a tool that can be used in the toolkit of a president that wants to be a wartime president, unfortunately. and so, people believed it when the bush administration sold this fiction that iraq was amassing nuclear weapons and that it was somehow connected to 9/11, even though osama bin laden despised saddam hussein as an apostate. none of that mattered. and now donald trump needs something, right? he is not in a good place and he needs something. and the worry that i have is, despite everything that colonel wilkerson and trita just said, the logic of that, it will just be easy to sell it. >> i totally agree, joy. i think we should be concerned. we should be worried. the islamophobia point is very important. president trump is the islamophobia in chief and there is years of bad blood between the two countries in a way there wasn't even with iraq, so that's a big problem. and with donald trump -- look, i'm not one of these people who

gives trump a pass on iran. i think there's -- of course, bolton is inciting this stuff, taking advantage of trump's ignorance in the middle east and ignorance of wars. but trump is the guy who ran for election lying about the contents of the nuclear deal, saying he would rip up the nuclear deal. he came in and pulled out of the nuclear deal, one of the few promises he actually kept. since then, he's escalated sanctions, which is basically economic warfare. he's designated the revolutionary guard of iran as a terrorist group against the advice. who appointed john bolton as his national security adviser? donald trump did. so, he's owning this. and he did tweet in 2011-2012 -- i've said this before -- he did tweet that obama's going to attack iran to try and get re-elected. remember, with trump, it's always projection. if trump is suffering next year and wants to get elected, yeah, it's an election year. iran will look very tantalizing, regardless of the blowback that's been outlined. >> and malcolm, the point of donald trump not knowing a lot and being very manipulatable, it does feel like he's sort of a

moveable feast for anyone who's got a policy agenda, whether it's, you know, helping the p puticrats of the united states or whatever you want to do, pollute the streams, he's there for you. the religious right is having a field day. this is one more place where someone like bolton, who does know more than trump, can just sort of get his way. >> well, that's possibly true. and we could be dealing with some circumstances happening here, that the first one is that donald trump is allowing john bolton to run, you know, sort of rampant and make all this noise and rattle the sabres so that at some point he does what he proclaimed that he might do last week, which is go to president rouhani and say look, i'm now going to offer you the kim jong-un deal, we're all going to meet in, you know, versailles and come up with some negotiated settlement, and a new donald trump, new-and-improved iran deal that's the exact same deal obama did, but he can say he got one over on obama.

the second option is he's playing the fool deliberately and they fully intend to go to war and they're looking for a circumstance to incite that in the run-up to the election. now, let me make this clear why i'm giving these assessments. i give it from the basis of experience. and no offense to colonel wilkerson. i have in my career engaged iran three times in combat, or engaged by them and their proxies, including direct naval combat in 1988. iran is not the force that we fought back in the 1980s. they are a competent, large-scale military with 3 million men. they have been preparing, as mehdi said earlier, for a defensive war with the united states. they will as a nation, 83 million people will stand up against us. they will savage the oil fields of saudi arabia, the uae, qatar and kuwait. oil will go over $200 a barrel and we will lose people, quite

possibly sailors, by the hundreds if we go into this with blythely thinking this way. >> yeah. >> i've fought in iraq. iraq, we couldn't do it. they killed 4,493 of us. iran is vietnam war-level combat, and you know, whatever they're doing, they need to stop talking about it now. >> and colonel wilkerson, the other challenge is that donald trump doesn't exactly have an administration stacked with talent. >> no. the only thing wrong with that, otherwise very accurate scenario just painted, is i don't think that's what we're going to do. i think the pentagon's objections would be so strenuous that that is not what we do. what we do is what we did in "operation preying mantas" writ large, conduct battle operations around the clock, 72, 99 hours, whatever. we conduct massive air strikes, and we do considerable damage to iran, and then we back away. we would not put a single marine or soldier on the ground. if we do, as he said, we're fools. so, that's a scenario that

bothers me, because we will think it will work, and it won't because of what he just stated. >> exactly. >> they will not just sit there and take that. >> and take it. and trita -- >> can i complicate the situation a little bit further, though? >> please do. >> because i think a big difference between not only the scenario that larry mentioned, but also early on when it comes to iraq -- the iranians are going to fight asymmetrically by denying the united states the ability to decide where the war will be fought. and as a result, you're going to see much of the middle east becoming a battlefield between the united states and iran, and the iranians are going to fight an asymmetric guerrilla war style. so all of these planings are going to fall apart very, very quickly. >> and mehdi, there's also the small point that by invading iraq, you've kind of handed iraq to iran, so they've got a second place that they can be based. >> yeah. there's this argument, iran is so powerful and regional. who helped them become so powerful? it was the george w. bush administration in 2003, which is ironic. >> exactly.

>> classic blowback from american foreign policy. and another point when you talk about iranian power, you have tom cotton, the republican senator saying we would take them out in one strike. and on one side, you have to stand up to iran, they're dominating capitals, they're run by crazy mullahs. and on the other hand, we're going to drop a few bombs on them and they'll be quiet. you can't have it both ways. this is absurd! >> and last word on this malcolm, because there is a small matter of the american troops that would be impacted by trying to do this. >> yeah, well, you know, all of the people who were in the volunteer force now. but let's take a look at the possibility of what they think they might do, which is to bring two or three carriers up there and throw some strikes and hurt iran along the coast as colonel wilkerson said. i've been in the gulf where we had four aircraft carriers. every air base in saudi arabia, total air dominance. and it still took us 40 to 60

days to suppress the air assets up there of iraq. now, iraq was one-fourth the size of iran. they will launch every ballistic missile they have into the saudi oil fields. they will bomb every base that's along the coast or anywhere within their range. they will use their one million man commando force to do what they tried to do in 1987, which is to come over in small boats and blow up every oil rig in the gulf. the entirety of the middle east will be on fire from the golan heights all the way to yemen. >> well, i don't know that they're listening to any reason. they're listening to john bolton at the moment. thank you, fantastic panel. i'll have you all back as this is what we're going to be talking about. and up next, we'll remind you about the real cost of making reckless, craven political decisions to go to war. reckless, craven political decisions to go to war every day, visionaries are creating the future.

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all should know that there is real data that underlies the risks that we've identified that caused us to make these decisions. the previous administration appeased the islamic republic of iran. so we are pushing back. and when you push back, tension does increase. >> as the trump administration threatens what, to be clear, would be the gravest foreign policy disaster in a generation, a war with iran, we are reminded

of another post vietnam military debacle, the invasion and occupation of neighboring iraq, which began more than 16 years ago in march 2003, when guided bombs brought shock and awe to baghdad. u.s. forces invaded iraq and vowed to destroy their supposed weapons of mass destruction, which didn't exist. the u.s. did effect regime change. saddam hussein was removed from power and executed. the war and occupation of iraq lasted nine years, killing nearly 4,500 american service members and 180,000 iraqis, most of them civilians. it's not clear as of yet to what purpose. joining me now is paul like-off, an iraq war veteran and host of the angry americans podcast and zane alsabi, executive producer and host of "through her eyes" on yahoo! thank you both for being here. i felt like i wanted to talk to both of you because, first of all, it's terrifying to think we might make the same mistake again, but on a bigger scale. iran versus iraq, it's bad versus much, much, much worse,

but no one's talking about the cost. so i want to talk about the cost on both ends. first of all, paul, asking american troops to go back again to that region in a much, much, much worse situation -- how can people even be contemplating this? >> well, they could be contemplating it most of all because it never really ended after 9/11. this is one continuous war. i got into this at length this week. we are in a new normal and that's forever war. if the authorization for the use of military force after 2002 gave the country, gave the president a blank check, so now the president's got a blank check to have war forever with no accountability, no oversight, no public backlash. that's the new normal. it extends not potentially only into iran, but seven other countries -- >> venezuela. >> -- who are actively in combat. and 40% of the world has american forces of some kind or diplomatic forces. so, we're in 40% of the world already. you know, almost every continent. so, this has never ended. so, it can continue because

there is no public accountabili accountability. there's no congressional oversight. the country is profoundly disconnected. we talk a lot about constitutional crises. this in my view is maybe the biggest one we face right now because nukes are involved. >> absolutely. >> nukes are involved. this literally means potentially the end of the world, so the stakes are higher than anything else we contemplate. >> we were talking about this the other day, that the challenge, too, is that as you've got farm bankruptcies rampant, as you've got people -- sure, unemployment's at 3.6%, but a lot of people are driving uber and lyft and have three jobs and get counted three times, right? so people aren't exactly rolling in dough and doing really well. and so, it's easy to just pick off young men, young women and just say, go join the military. fatten up the military, get a check and then you're off to war. >> yeah. there's a lot of talk about supporting the troops. the ultimate disrespect to the troops is to forget about them, forget they are in the middle east. memorial day is coming up in about a week. people in the military are going to go to arlington and the rest of america's going to go to the beach, right? there's a profound disconnect.

and now the president is considering pardoning war criminals, which is in some ways the ultimate insult, because it actually doesn't respect the rule of military law. it doesn't respect the code of military justice. it's the ultimate middle finger to our military to say, you know what, i don't respect your rule of law, i don't respect your laws or your courts, and i'm just going to do what i want. >> yeah. >> that is also another level of lacking accountability that everybody should be shocked about. i think most bothered about. and it also extends to the civilians. >> absolutely. >> it's not just mernamericans,s everybody else in our way. >> and we were talking the previous segment, i said to mehdi that islamophobia encourages a lot of bad action because it encourages a certain recklessness. if the idea is going to war against those people. it's easier to sell it. it's easier to tell americans, those are bad people, they're muslims, go get them. >> it's like we create our enemy and then we fight our enemy and then we, like, create our own fear. when you were showing images of

iraq war -- i'm from iraq. i grew up in iraq. >> yes. >> and i can't help but cry every single time i know one-third of the country is flattened, is destroyed, from my own house i grew up in baghdad from the front lines of isis. every town, every village, every mosque, every school, everything is destroyed. what do we have out of the destruction is the emergence of isis which not only destroyed iraq and the region, it impacts world politics, security, and america itself. we are creating our enemy over and over and over again. and america has to take a moment to step back and look at what has created so it does not replicate the same mistake. you know, the middle east is already unstable. we already have no freedom of press, no women's rights, no human rights. the window that opened in the arab spring now completely shut down. a war with iran would only exasperate the situation, and that destabilization of the region will lead to destabilization of the world and of america itself. >> and it's happening at a time when you have the president of

the united states attempting to ban muslim migration from, including, or initially, iraq. >> exactly. exactly. >> we created the refugees that come here. >> people who acted as translators to support the american army, with people who have risked their lives to support the american arm aerm. it's a vicious circle, but we have to get our senses. the war with iran is not our war. it is us ram's war. it is saudi arabia's war, but it is not america's war. if they want to risk their kids' their civilians' lives -- >> they should do it themselves. >> it's not america's war. second, in islams -- like 1.9 billion people, we are summarizing them as one thing. how insulting and ignorant. ignorant. 1.9 billion muslims in the world, including myself, you know. we are people who are diverse. there is good people. there are bad people. there are intellectual people, there are not so -- as diverse as white people, as black

people, as everyone people, right? and where fnarrowing down is ony one thing, shame on us. it is not the america i know. >> at some point, is there going to be a reaction inside these communities? because you know, i can just remember going to the family readiness centers in miami and talking to family members of people who, they weren't even getting enough support, right? we're not even doing enough to support either the civilians in the countries we're bombing or our own families of our troops, making sure they have medical care. >> yeah. that's right, joy. we met 15 years ago because we do this work. >> yeah. >> she was advocating for civilians. i was acting for veterans. we've been friends ever since and have been both screaming from the mountaintops of the human cost of war. in some ways now it's come full circle, but i think we represent populations that feel forgotten and are manipulated, abused, politicized. and in my opinion, the president's politicize krooized the military, used them -- >> as props. >> the khan family or the parade or the war in iran or farmers,

saying -- >> our patriot farmers, which sounds like the old soviet un n union. >> it's twisted. and people are running these decisions who are not congressionally approved. you have an acting secretary of defense in shanahan -- >> isn't he a boeing executive? great. >> this is a time to remember, general mattis is gone. he was kind of like a guard dog guarding the gun closet, guarding our military, guarding our nukes. he's gone now and there's a secretary that's acting not senate approved -- bolton's not approved and he's third on the pecking order. he's the third guy in there that wasn't aproved. now you've got the voice of reason is pompeo, right? so, the three people potentially taking us to war are people that america should be paying attention to and forcing pressure -- >> and a president who's never in his family has had no gallantry. they have not one sacrificed in terms of being part of the military. >> the damage this will do to american credibility -- further damage to american credibility on the international screen is horrendous. we should all be fighting for not to go for a war, really. it used to be once upon a time

american army, it's a respected arm eye a, you know, it's an army that doesn't actually commit war crimes, doesn't do anything. and now you have a pardon of really a criminal. >> a war criminal. >> and credibility of the seven other countries we're at war with. we have to respect there is no public approval of the wars we're already engaged in, so let's start there, maybe. around memorial day is a good way to talk about the troops -- >> honor them and come home. you have a podcast and you have rachel maddow on? >> i do. it's called "angry americans." we get into a lot of issues. if you're not angry, you're not paying attention. these issues, the abortion ban in alabama, electric scooters. there's plenty to be angry about in america, but we want to turn it into something righteous and positive. >> now that you're podcasting, i'm hoping to get access to you on the weekends, because you don't need to have a life. come back! we'll have you back. you can be a tag team. >> we are a tag team, we are. >> we'll bring them back. >> going for lunch after this. >> civilians and military getting together to fight the same fight. >> you are both wonderful. i'm a huge fan of both of you.

paul and zainab, thank you very much. while mayor pete embraces fox news, we'll tell you why elizabeth warren is giving a stiff-arm to earth two. izabeth a stiff-arm to earth two experience the style, craftsmanship, and technology that have made the rx the leading luxury suv of all time. lease the 2019 rx 350 for $399 a month for 36 months. experience amazing at your lexus dealer. you wouldn't accept from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills? flonase relieves your worst symptoms including nasal congestion, which most pills don't. flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances. most pills only block one. flonase.

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♪ burning every bridge, yeah, picking every fight ♪ ♪ that's why they call him mr. bad advice ♪ ♪ because he lets us do the fox news guys ♪ ♪ i want to make a super straight man out of you ♪ ♪ don't stop us now, we're having such a good time ♪ ♪ having a ball, having a ball, don't stop us now ♪ ♪ you want a huge distraction just give yeezy a call ♪ >> alec baldwin returned as donald trump for the season finale of "saturday night live" which included a spoof of fox host and superfan jean shapiro. >> have you been drinking? >> colin, please! i haven't been drinking. i currently am drinking. i have vowed to enjoy a drink every time president trump ignores a congressional subpoena. and let me tell you, mama is a

lizard. >> all right. well, despite trump's stone-walling, it is still likely that robert mueller will testify before congress. alright, let's get going! and you want to make sure to aim it. i'm aiming it. ohhhhhhh! i ordered it for everyone. [laughing] (dad vo) we got the biggest subaru to help bring our family together. i'm just resting my eyes. (dad vo) even though we're generations apart. what a day. i just love those kids. (avo) presenting the all-new three-row subaru ascent. wave to grandma, everybody. (avo) love is now bigger than ever. you have 4.3 minutes this time,to yourself.rn. this calls for a taste of cheesecake. philadelphia cheesecake cups. rich, creamy cheesecake with real strawberries. find them with the refrigerated desserts.

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♪ ♪ see how investing with a j.p. morgan advisor can help you. visit your local chase branch. i guess the president watches your network a little bit, right? [ laughter ] hey, president trump, my wife and i just released ten years. please do the same. let the american people know. >> making sure that we have

someone in the white house, which is why i'm running for president, that will -- that will obey the law and tell the truth. i think that's a minimum we should expect from the president. >> well, we don't want to darrell on the mueller report because we don't see you doing it on the campaign trail or answering a lot of questions about it. >> fox news has recently taken a break from being donald trump's state-run media and for an hour here and there has turned its airwaves to democratic candidates for president. senators sanders and klobuchar have each taken spins on the fox machine, and tonight, south bend mayor pete buttigieg will take his turn. but you know which democratic hopeful won't be heading across the plaza for a fox town hall? senator elizabeth warren. in rejecting their invitation, she tweeted "hate for profit works only if there's profit, so fox news balances a mix of bigotry, racism and outright lies with enough legit journalism to make the claim to advertisers that it's a reputable news outlet. a fox news town hall adds money to the hate-for-profit machine

to which i say hard pass." joining me now is angelo carisoni, president of media manners, tara dell and gabriel sherman, msnbc contributor and special correspondent for "vanity fair." thank you for being here. media matters was the first to get out there and sort of say that the right thing to do would be for, you know, content to be denied so that the advertisers would also walk away from fox news. you see elizabeth warren doing that now. i want to read you what pete buttigieg said in defending his decision to go on -- "if we ignore the viewers of fox news and every news platform that doesn't share our world view, we will surrender our ability to speak directly to millions of american voters. if we don't show up, the conservative media will tell our side of the story for us." what is your response? >> i have a couple responses to that. first, there's this notion that somehow democrats have already ceded fox news, and that's simply not true. democratic elected members of congress appear on fox news 300%

more than republicans appear on msnbc and 35% more than republicans appear on cnn. so, already democrats are there. so it's never been ceded to begin with. i think what the question here is, what is -- so, i just don't understand the argument. there's a big assumption that hasn't bosh out and has proven no political effect. i think the bigger question is whether or not -- and that's what i feel like elizabeth warren has understood and a lot of these other candidates have not, that fox news was on the ropes. in the little bit of a tease you played before, the reason jeanine shapiro was suspended for a little period of time was because they had to convince advertisers that they had some standards and donald trump attacked the network because of that. that's how you weaken fox news' power. so, my goal is not to empower fox news, and certainly not to enable their single biggest defense right now, which is that, look, some of our opinion people are a little bit out there, but our hard news is our

hard news and you should trust it, and that's simply not borne out. and i don't think it's worth validating that particular piece of counterspin that fox news is using right now to get themselves out of an otherwise desperate situation. >> gabriel sherman, "the loudest voice in the room" and very much an expert on fox news. is there validity to the buttigieg argument, the bernie sanders argument, that you have to go over there, because there is an audience that is somehow fungible between democrats and republicans? >> here's the thing, fox news, the argument they make is that they have the largest audience in cable news and that just de facto by its size there are democrats who watch fox news just because you have millions of people, you're going to get some democrats. now, where this argument falls apart is that, you know, for this one hour of a day, they will maybe have some neutral questions. but as angelo was saying, this is part of their business model, to sell to the world that we are a legitimate news organization. they have a seat in the white house briefing room with the white house correspondents association. they are treated like a

legitimate member of the media. that only works if the rest of the world treats them as a legitimate media. and i have reported that inside fox news, you know, there was tremendous -- there has been tremendous concern about the advertiser boycott. rupert murdoch reported personally called -- i'm sorry, donald trump personally called rupert murdoch when there was talk about suspending jeannie pirro. so, this is something that is a tug-of-war between are we trump state tv or a news outlet, something that is playing out right now. >> and let me play really quickly for you, tara, elizabeth warren. this was just a little while ago, campaigning in new hampshire, and she reiterated what she said about fox news in writing. here it is. >> fox news is a hate-for-profit racket. it's a racket. and much of america's starting to catch up to that. and that means that they are losing right now sponsors. this is all about money.

they lose sponsors because sponsors don't want to be associated with the hate. i will find many ways to reach out. i'll talk to fox news reporters. but what i'm not going to do is give them a full hour of my time so they can raise money and they can raise credibility off it. >> first of all, she's a really good explainer. i have to say. she's a very good explainer. is that message more salient for -- as you as a strategist, putting on your strategist hat -- to a democratic audience, or is the buttigieg and also joe biden, sort of reach across the aisle message more potent in a primary? >> from a political standpoint, the goal is to get the most votes, right? let's be -- i mean, i don't want to be captain obvious here, but it's to get the most votes, right? and so, persuasion politics is extremely difficult. meanwhile, we have democrats who have been sitting out elections, who actually agree with

democrats, but for some reason, they have not -- or many reasons, they have not been motivated to vote for a democrat in any election or anyone else for that matter. so, elizabeth warren is the best positioned at this point to actually appeal to those voters who have sat out because of her level of authenticity, which we're seeing her gain traction while not getting the same amount of coverage. we're seeing her gain traction and we're seeing a level of consistency with her messaging, and we're also seeing that she has the ability to actually have gotten things done and she's an excellent explainer and storyteller, as you pointed out. so, she is the best positioned. so, her strategy is to appeal to those people who are on the sidelines, who are disaffected, and to get them back into the fold, and that is a much easier proposition than trying to persuade team who have been told by a network for years that democrats are the enemy. >> let me tell you -- go on. >> it's really important to

point out the context here. barack obama made the same choice that elizabeth warren did. back in 2007, fox news was set to host a debate with the congressional black caucus and barack obama said no, i'm not going to appear at this debate because you're using me as a political prop to sell that you're a legitimate news organization. that debate fell apart. john edwards and other democrats back in '07 boycotted fox. so, this is not a new phenomenon. >> yeah. >> i just think that now elizabeth warren is so clearly articulating why it's not beneficial to democrats to give them that air time. >> and let me just play just a little bit, because if you're watching this network -- i don't know how much fox you watch, but this is a taste of it, brian kill immediate talking about the border crisis on friday on "fox & friends." >> there is a five-alarm fire on our southern border right now, and the men and women every day need some help. >> when the market fell apart in 2008 and after 9/11, this is almost like that at the border. we've never seen these numbers before, and the men and women who have to round up these illegals who want to become part of our country are saying, please, help us. >> i tell you what -- >> tara, if you're a candidate running right now, would you put

him on fox? >> no, i would not. because first of all, from a practical standpoint, the easiest way if you do want to reach voters who don't agree with you is face-to-face, to get in front of them. there are organizations throughout this country that will host democratic candidates, that will let them make contact face-to-face. because remember, what fox news does is it creates an idea of what people are, an idea of what black people are, and idea of what hispanics are, an idea of what asian immigrants are, an idea of what muslims are, jews are. they create ideas. and so, when you want to combat a negative stereotype, a negative idea, you do it by meeting with that person face-to-face. >> right. >> and that's where you can make the real persuasion. so, why would you expend resources and energy on a tactic that's not going to be as effective as what we know is effective? >> and angelo, with know that president trump starts promoting things like one america news or outlets like newsmax, run by his good friend. is there any chance you're going to see democrats saying, well, if we're going to go on fox, we

might as well go on those, too? >> right, that's what i worry about, especially this idea of, we have to go out and reach these people where they are. they don't seem to be recognizing the reality. i mean, it's even reflected in a lot of these statements, where they're actually validating the notion that somehow it's just fox's opinion part. that's the stuff that really concerns me, right? i mean, it's -- when we went back and chronicled, we looked at just fox news' news division and we found a single, demonstrable lie that at any other outlet or news organization would have been corrected every single day this year so far, and these are things that affect people's lives. in february, it was their news division reporting that babies were being born alive and then aborted afterwards. so i mean, this is the thing. even when they do this, they're not even doing it in a way that is the least damaging, right? they're actually validating it. and what i don't understand is, is what the goal is. if the goal is to get primary voters, then, buzz, there are more primary voters watching this conversation right now in the democratic party than there will be watching that town hall. >> yeah. >> so, then what's the goal? is the goal to send a message?

and my only question is this -- is the cost worth it? why sharpen their spear that they're otherwise going to use to stab you with if you're not going to get anything out of it? >> last word, gabriel, real quick. >> this is clearly a bigger proxy war. democrats, should they be talking to, you know, supposedly the trump voter, or do they rally their base? >> their own base. if you're a strategist, which one? >> rally your base! and expand your base that exists. >> seems elementary to me, my dear watson. angelo, gabriel, thank you so much, tara is going to stick around. up next, we'll tell you who won the week. llell you who won the week ♪

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now it's time to ask my panel who won the week? all right, we are going to have house dowdell, house ross and house johnson tell us who won the week. who won the week? >> it is really great to be able to talk about some positive news. >> i know, we need it, girl. this is not vodka in this cup, but it very well could be. >> i will take all the positive news i can get. so the black women who represent the record number of black women graduating from westpoint won the week for me.

>> oh, yes. >> it just shows that all the barriers that are thrown up that our community and black women are fighters and we just continue to persevere and overcome. and also that we're patriots, which is something people love to say we are not. >> black men are overrepresented in terms of joining the military, anyway. that was a wonderful, heartfelt story tweeted at me. fabulous, fabulous, fabulous, fabulous. tiffany, you have a lot to top there. come with it, tiffany cross. sdp >> who won the week for me is congresswoman grace meng. asian americans are the fastest growing demographic in the country, and she's in the political arm of the asian american caucus in congress. she said, hey, don't ignore us.

it's just another sign the demographics of the country are changing. a majority of asian americans don't identify with any one political party and they get ignored by both parties. so she's saying, hey, pay attention to us, we matter with the fastest growing demographic and you would be wise to court our vote. she won the week for me. >> you have all the influence in the world over politics and everything d.c. can we somehow get the pugh research center and these other polling firms to break out asian americans? it drives me crazy when we're trying to break down a poll and we have african-americans, whites, and latino. >> a lot of people don't consider asian americans people of color, but this country is not inclined to any community of color. we are very much a community of color. they should certainly be included. >> amen, hallelujah.

this is going to be tough on you, jason, because the ladies have brought it. can you bring it? >> i have a winner of the week and a surprise winner of the week. the first winner of the week are all the parents down at morehouse, spelman and clark atlanta who were there for their kids' graduation this week. the famous racist church who wants to protest wanted to come and make a stink. i'm proud of all the parents not to give them the attention they want. not 20 minutes ago, the ceo agreed to pay off the entire debt of class 2019. that is how you win the week. >> he's one of the few black billionaires in the country. he is amazing. >> i'm not sure that i can top that. that's actually -- good for him and good for all of them. sometimes you try throateaten t

you're going to do these things in the black community, you get what you came for. all right, so my contender, and i'm actually going to call it a four-way tie today, honestly, because i loved all you guys' during the week. it's a four-way tie. i'm picking the lunch lady. we've all been to public school. the lunch lady sometimes is the difference between you having a chocolate milk and you being thirsty, a little sandwich, extra fries with your food, making sure you're healthy. this little woman from kimball, she was compassionate to a kid who didn't have money for lurnc, let the child have lunch for free and she was fired for it. they literally said she violated the company that provides the food for the school. she was fired. they got blowback, the whole world was outraged. they tried to offer her job back and she said, i don't want my job back. no. i don't need y'all. i'm going on with my life.

now jose andres has said he will give her a job. we don't know if she's going to take it yet. i hope she does. we're going to go through who wins the "game of thrones," jason johnson? >> they're going to kill daenyrus and it's going to be jon. he's going to do it. >> i don't want to watch. >> tiffany cross, you got to bring it home, girl. >> look, they have hung this entire season on ariya. i feel like at this point she's the only one who deserves the throat. they tried to tell jon, your girl is a little crazy, just like they told jamie that cersi

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joint damage and clear skin in many adults. humira is the number one prescribed biologic for psoriatic arthritis. announcer: humira can lower your ability to fight infections. serious and sometimes fatal infections, including tuberculosis, and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened, as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. man 3: ask your rheumatologist about humira. woman 4: go to mypsaproof.com to see proof in action.

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wasn't collulued in, you almost slightly admonished me. come on, girl. >> i almost slightly did. >> now i have to see it. ariya has to be the one on the thrown. jon snow would be fine but he didn't really want it. i have news to do. i'll talk to you soon. good day to all of you from msnbc headquarters in new york. it is high noon in the east. welcome to alex witt. he's the first, will he be the last? one republican weighs in on the impeachment question. >> there is now bipartisan support. >> i just spent three days in iowa, and not one individual brought up the mueller report. >> you don't see anybody else agreeing with it. >> can impeachment even be potentially successful in the senate? >> the new headline that raises questions about the president's use of pardons. no longer silent, the president tweeut