>> this sunday, the democrats new reality, as the field of candidates grows, look who's sitting at the top of the polls. >> the single most important thing is defeat donald trump. >> establishment joe biden who has surged past the early progressive favorites. >> with your help, we're going to win the democratic primary. >> we need big structural change in 2020. >> the perception he's best position to defeat president trump. i'll speak with bernie sanders of vermont. plus abortion battle, a

growing number of states. democrats condemn them. >> womens' health care is under attack and we will not stand for it. >> all setting up a 2020 culture fight and a possible supreme court battle over abortion rights. also rising tensions with iran. why some say iran is a growing threat to the united states. >> they take the first military strike. we will take the last military strike. >> while others fear repeating the mistake of iran. my guest, republican senator tom cotton of arkansas. joining me for inside analysis "washington pos "washington post" columnist, and former homeland security janet

napolitano. >> from nbc news in washington, the longest running show in history, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. >> good sunday morning. once again conventional wisdom has been proven to be not wise. bernie sanders was positioned to be the clear presidential front runner and joe biden should consider not running for the nomination of the 21st century version of the democratic party. well, what a difference reality might make. since he entered the race less than four weeks ago, joe biden has dominated the polls. this week's fox poll is just the latest showing biden lapping sanders. look no further than the white house for validation. president trump's near obsession with biden is more likely a sign of fear than confidence. i'll talk to bernie sanders in a moment. let's acknowledge we may

experience biden whiplash yet again. we haven't had a debate or watched biden experience the gauntlet of campaign trail. what we're learning is that the progressive activist twitter verse doesn't reflect the universe. for now, biden is having his moment. >> if you want to know what the most important plank in my proposal is. beat trump. >> at a kick off rally in philadelphia yesterday, joe biden leaned into the idea that he is the democrat best positioned to beat donald trump. >> the american people want a president to add to our division, lead with clinched fists, a closed hand, a heart heart, to demonize your opponent, to spew hatred. they don't need me. they've got president donald trump. >> with a mushrooming field of 24 candidates and counting, 2020 candidates are jockeying to sell the perception of electability.

>> we're not waiting for ideas. what's missing is courage. >> i want to beat donald trump. i beat him 21 times in a row in court. >> i know how to challenge this guy. >> in a fox news poll, 73% of democrats call it extremely important that the democratic candidate for president can beat president trump. just 51% say it's extremely important the nominee shares their views on major issues. >> if trump is reelected, it's going to be a nightmare for many generations to come. >> that angst in biden's ascension is causing some democrats to distance themselves from things like ending insurance and breaking up big tech companies. >> that soupds like a donald trump thing to say. i'm going to break up you guys. no, we need to create systems

and processes. >> bidens rise in the polls has his opponents taking caution aim, attempting remind voters he's a candidate of the vast. >> vice president biden is a good person and was a great vice president. i believe i'm the acandidate for our times. >> it's time for the generation that fought in iraq and afghanistan to step in for the generation that sent us there. >> it is not the real world to think mitch mcconnell is going to embrace a major effort to mobilize against the climate crisis. >> that 1994 crime bill, it did contribute to mass incarceration in our country. >> while the progressive wing of the party sharpens their attacks. >> i will be dammened if the same politicians are going to come back today and say we need a middle of the road approach to save our lives. >> among them, bernie sanders.

>> i disagree with many of the votes he casts. >> i led the efforts against those trade agreements, joe voted for them. the war in iraq. i voted against it. joe voted for it. >> joining me for the first time in a year on meet the press is senator bernie sanders from vermont. good so have you with us. let me start with something the former vice president said yesterday. he was talking about his climate change proposal. he said if you want to know what the most important plank of my climate proposal is, it was beat trump. you have said if all the democrats do is focus on trump, you'll lose. essentially biden is saying no, no, no, it is all about trump. your reaction? >> i think democrats have got to do a couple of things. number one, we've got to beat donald trump who in my view is the most dangerous president in the modern history of this country. he's a pathological liar,

sexist, racist, et cetera, et cetera. but that is not enough. if we're talking, for example, about climate change, what the scientists tell us is that we have 12 years before irrepairable damage is done to this planet. beating trump is not good enough. you've got to beat the fossil fuel industry. you've got to take on the forces of the status quo who do not want to move towards sustainability. the scientists tell us the future of the planet is at stake. we have a moral responsibility to make sure our kids and grandchildren live in a healthy and inhabitable environment. that means massive investments in wind and solar, so forth and so on. you need a real plan to transform the energy system. >> another way to look at it is you have to win. one of the cases you need to make to democrats is when the former head of the democratic party in pennsylvania -- i gather that joe biden has a lot

of support in pennsylvania. but here's what he said about you. he said this. i'm supremely confident bernie sanders could not win pennsylvania. many, many democrats in pennsylvania stick their fingers in their ears. tell us how you win pennsylvania. >> look, let me just say this. let me tell this to ed, there are millions of people who are sick and tire odd of that democratic accomplishment. what ed should know is that a recent poll that came out had me if i'm not mistaken eight points ahead of trump in pennsylvania. we have polls way ahead of him in michigan and wisconsin and all over this country. the reason we can be, my campaign, can beat donald trump is we're going to create the kind of excitement we need to bring out the large voter turn out. we're going to bring out young people who are not only interested and are going to fight for real climate change. they want to raise that minimum

wage to 15 bucks an hour, a fight i've been helping to lead. they want health care for all, medicare for all through single payer pay out program. it's absurd young people should be leaving clj $100,000 in debt. they want colleges and universitys tuition free. they want criminal justice reform. the truth is our campaign can generate that excitement. our generation can talk to m so of the trump supporters who know they were lied to when trump said he was going to provide health care to everybody. i think we are the campaign that can beat donald trump. >> senator, i would argue you made very similar case against hillary clinton four years ago and came up short. why do you think this time -- >> chuck, chuck -- >> i'm just saying, you have part of the party that seems to be gravitating toward biden. go ahead. >> you know, we came up short, yeah. we took on the entire democratic establishment. we took on the democratic

national committee. we took on every democratic governor, took on every democratic mayor, and we ended up winning 22 states and 13 million votes and in fact bringing forth an agenda that transformed the democratic party. four years ago people were not talking about the issues we're talking about now. so, i understand that our campaign is unique in the sense that we're going to try to win the democratic primary. we're going to try to beat trump. but do you know what else we're going to try to do? we're going to try to transform the united states of america, deal with this massive level of income and wealth inequality, deal with wall street, deal with the greed of the drug companies and insurance companies and fossil fuel industry. our campaign has a different goal. it's to transform this country, and we're taking on the entire establishment when we do that. >> i want to focus a second on medicare for all. moikal bennett, another candidate for president believed that the lesson of 2018 was not

medicare for all, but fix obamacare. >> now what democrats are saying is if you like your insurance, we're going to take it away from you from 180 million people that get their insurance from their employer and like it. or 20 million americans who are on medicare advantage and love it. that seems like a bad opening offer for me. >> and senator, i'm well aware that you believe that look, you were in favor of obamacare but it was not your first choice. i know that. as you know there's a lot of voters who voted for democrats in 2018 to fix obamacare first and then and see should it be something different. are you obligate d to fix obamacare first? >> we're obligated to make sure trump and others don't throws millions off of health care they are enjoying. the point is the current health care system is absolutely dysfunctional. you've got 34 million without

any health insurance, even more underinsured. elderly people can't afford dental care, eye glasses, and for all that we spend twice as much money on health care than any other country and pay highest prices on prescription drugs. i know the insurance companies will spend hundreds of millions of dollars including ads on nbc attacking bernie sanders, attacking medicare for all. look at the polling. people support medicare very, very strongly and all we are saying is you've got a good program in medicare expanded to everybody else, improve medicare for senior citizens. and when we do that, we're going to provide comprehensive care to all people and we're going to do it by saving substantial sums of money. >> under your plan we're eliminating private insurance? correct? >> we are going to provide comprehensive health care to all people. and what you're going to have is private insurance if people want it for supplementary type

benefits, cosmetics and so forth. >> everybody has the same baseline government insurance under your plan? >> well, that government health care is what medicare is right now. if you look at the polling, medicare is far more popular than private health insurance. people like medicare. we have to expand it. >> what do you say to the people worried about the disruption? is as you know everybody hates their health care until you try to disrupt them of their current system. >> well, i'm not so sure about that. what i do know is that there's massive disruption. one of the problems with the health care system right now is if your employer, chuck, decides to get another insurance company, you may be able -- you'll be losing the doc you currently go to, have to pay a lot more to get it. every time somebody losing their job, every time an employer changes health care insurance policy, there's destruction that impacts tens of millions of people. when you have medicare for all, you will finally have stability. everybody in the country will

have comprehensive health care covering all bases of health care needs. we will save the citizens of this country on health care substantial sums of money. >> i want to ask you about the big news in the legislature this week and this year on the issue of abortion. lo will you have a litmus test for judges on roe. it is going to be on the ballot, the issue of supreme court justices. do you believe in that roe litmus tests? >> i believe what they did in alabama is unbelievable. other states are doing it. the idea that women should not be able to control their own bodies is unbelievable. they have that right. if you're asking me would i ever appoint a supreme court justice who does not believe in defending roe vs. wade, who doesn't believe a woman doesn't have a right to control her own body, i will not do that. >> do you believe there should

be any restrictions on abortion in law? >> i think that that is a decision that is being -- that should be made by the woman and her physician. and i think many of -- you know, what people are doing is sadly creating a political issue out of a medical issue. so, the decision about women should be able to control their own body and those decisions are made by a doctor. >> are you at all concerned though about the idea that people may try to worry about the sex of a child or essentially look at that -- are those type of restrictions on abortion something you're open to? >> i wouldn't use a restriction on -- that's an issue that society has got to deal with, and it is of concern. >> how would you deal with that in the law? >> i don't know how at this particular point i would deal with it, but that is an issue we have got to deal with. >> all right. i want to move to foreign policy. "new york times" spent a lot of

time talking about your trips to central america. i know you got pretty worked up about those things. i think the larger question -- let me frame the question this way. if you're the nominee, whether you like it or not the right is going to hammer and sickle you to death. how do you prevent it? >> well, i don't mind the right wing doing it. i understand they will do it. i don't want the media to do it. when i was a young man, i plead guilty, i voted -- i worked hard as a young man against the war in vietnam. i don't apologize for that. as a member of the united states house, i helped lead the effort against the war in iraq which turns out to have been the worst foreign policy blunder in the modern history of the united states. as the united states senator, i led the effort to pass a bipartisan resolution to get america out of the war in yemen led by saudi arabia. aif got to tell you something, chuck. i hope you guys pay attention to

yemen. what's going on in yemen now is the worst humanitarian disaster in the world. we're talking about hundreds of thousands of people, children, dying. i'm doing my best to get u.s. out of that. if trump wants to go to war in iran, that will make the war in iraq look like a cake walk. it will make it -- so, with evidence got to do everything we can to stop that. if people want to attack me because i think war should be the last resort, you can attack me. i've seen too much horror. i was the chairman on the senate commit approximate tee on veterans affairs. i will do everything i can to see problems solved diplomatically rather than through war. >> a couple questions. on the issue of the u.s. embassy in jerusalem would you move it back out of the jerusalem if you thought it was a way to get a peace deal? >> yeah. i think it's something that we should -- i can't give you a definitive answer, but yeah. answer is look, whether it is iran and saudi arabia, whether

it is israel and the palestinians, united states needs to bring people together, needs an even-handed policy. and saudi arabia, for example, for decades we have supported a murderous regime which fights democracy every day. i want an even-handed policy which brings people together. >> would you move the embassy now out of jerusalem? >> chuck, that is -- we'll take that one step at a time. it's something -- you know, the bottom line is we need to be a -- we are the most powerful country on earth. let's bring people together and try to bring peace. >> a final question on the foreign policy frochblt you point out humanitarian problems all the time. how would you deal with china and the uighurs, the muslims are re-educating. how do you hold china accountable for that without wrecking the economy. >> i don't think you have to wreck the economy to tell china you cannot have the equivalent

of concentration camps. the united states -- very sadly under donald trump we have moved in exactly the wrong way. he supports authoritarian governments all over the world. i believe we have to support democracy and human rights. so, i think china is an important partner. i think we have to deal with trade issues, but i think it should be known that we cannot allow -- we have to stand up and oppose governments that are doing terrible things to minorities. >> is humanitarian reasons a reason to use military force? that's what we did in kosovo and bosnia. >> it depends -- obviously you have to look at case by case. if you're talking about the need to prevent genocide, yeah, i guess so. but obviously every situation is different. >> okay. senator bernie sanders, we got to a lot. i wish we could get to more. i hope we see you more often than we have in the last year. stay safe on the trail. much appreciated. when we come back the democratic race and the number that should have president trump

concerned. panel is next. ned. panel is next. still fresh... ♪ unstopables in-wash scent booster ♪ downy unstopables

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welcome back, panel is here. eugene robinson, janette napolitano, author of the book "how safe are we," heidi perezbella. nice to see you on this coast. >> i guess it's good to be back. >> let me start with piece of conventional wisdom that might be exploding before our eyes. there's an interesting number here. it shows biden with a double digit lead. look at the match ups and the trump number. you see a pattern there? sapders, 43, 44, and buttigieg

doesn't get to 41. which conventional wisdom is more accurate, that joe biden can't get the nomination or that trump is underrated as an candidate? sometimes we overrate the president's stance because of '16. >> yeah, but how could you not factor that in. unless the democrats a poisonous stance or pick a bad candidates -- on biden, i confess. i underestimated his strength, overestimated the power of the left. maybe it's expected i would get that wrong. but a lot of the democratic field got it wrong and may now be mispositioned to fight him for the large center of the democratic party. >> it does seem as if a lot of democrats spend too much time on twitter. >> yeah, some people -- they do. because twitter is the -- the twitterverse is not the universe. and it's more to the left. i mean, the conventional wisdom

on twitter and in sort of political circles was that biden was too conservative, that he would have a hard time. i've got to say i never quite bought that because there is a larger democratic party. for one thing, you have to get support from african-americans. you have to get support from latinos. you have to get a lot of voters who are not -- some of whom are fairly socially conservative and are the salt of the earth type that is you don't associate with the most left progressive policies necessarily. so, my answer was let's see what happens when biden came in. i have been surprised at the size of his early lead. it is impressive. it's impressive. >> janette napolitano, you live and breathe the california world and sometimes people think uc

berkeley or bay area you live in your own bubble. i'm curious -- this is joe biden's message to all democrats yesterday. i want to see how it plays in oakland. >> our president is the divider in chief. trump huinherited an economy ju like he inherited everything else in iz had life. beat trump. >> is that going to carry -- i just look -- i just think of the bay area, are they pragmatic about biden or like no, no, no, we like kamala harris or want to see a more diverse debate. >> obviously, senator harris is very popular in california. but i think vice president biden will make a serious play there. and before i was in california and d.c., i was the governor of arizona. and democratic politics play a bit differently there than on the coast. so, i'm not surprised that vice

president biden has come out of the gate so strongly because i do believe that within the democratic party there is a core of what i think of as kind of pragmatic progressives who want the country to be working in a more united fashion, that are very conscious and supportive of civil rights, of human rights and womens' rights but are also kind of skeptical of the ideas coming from the far left. >> heidi, if you're a candidate not named biden or bernie, what do you do? >> the conventional wisdom has been to attack biden. but that's not working. maybe the second tier field needs to win know a lit. that's why you're seeing candidates like pete buttigieg and elizabeth warren peel off support from bernie. bernie's base of support was

never as massive as people thought it was because we were talking about caucus states here. we were not talking about the democratic primary vote. that is now spread out and that is why it's hard for any one of these candidates to emerge as a viable threat to joe biden. if you watched his campaign speech launch, he's running a general election strategy here. he was only focused on trump, and he made a specific pledge that i am not going to go after any of these democrats. he was trying to balance that by saying i'm not going to allow anyone to walk all over me, but i think that people are tired of the name calling, they're tired of the divisiveness, and i'm ready for a bare knuckle fight but i'm not going to stoop to that level and alienate pragmatic nominees as well. i want a government that works again. >> what i think is interesting is biden's announcement in this speech, you've put lowest common denominator. it's not new.

it's cliché. we need unity and newed whys. trump rarely talks in those terms. democratic candidates were consuming with making critique of america. this is a caveat i have. whenever have we elected the elder statesman promising a restoration? maybe conditions are right for it, but i think fresh and new is the threat to him, not necessarily the left. >> the only thing i say in this, i worry we're trapped in the past. meaning we know how things work before. we've never had donald trump as president so we have no idea how this works. >> we fight the last election, not the one that's coming up. so, no, we have no idea how really to run against donald trump. what's going to work or not work against -- we don't know. we have some idea of how the president will campaign. but this is -- we're in -- >> should it matter to democrats

whether a guy like bernie sanders can carry arizona. should primary voters be thinking about that as much as they think about medicare for all? >> absolutely. i think the democratic party thinks of the whole country, but there are states in the rocky mountain west, arizona, new mexico, and in colorado turning safely blue, but even in nevada, there are a lot of electoral college votes in those states. and trump won arizona by 3, 3 1/2 points. that's a very doable contest. >> can bernie sanders carry it? >> that's a more difficult question. i think arizona democrats tend to be more conservative side if we're using that kind of spectrum. >> we will pause it here. when we come back the abortion debate and a republican senator from arkansas next. moderate to severe plaque psoriasis.

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>> . welcome back, republicans this week found themselves divided on a couple of important issues. there was a clear division in the administration of how aggressive to pursue. republicans in washington seemed to be open to embrace antiabortion restraints in alabama. senator cotton is the author about my favorite place to go in washington, "a sacred duty, a behind the scenes look at arlington national cemetery." >> thanks for having me on. >> absolutely. i want to talk about it a little bit at the end. let me start with the abortion debate. you took your constitutional law. you went to harvard law.

the question really is when do you believe a fetus has constitutional rights? >> chuck, like a lot of folks here in arkansas, i'm pro-life and i think a basic responsibility of government in a civilized society is to protect innocent life. i know that that's a passionate question on both sides. one of the problems having unelected judges in washington make that decision for us as a nation is that you can't have space for democratic debate where you can reach consensus and find some common ground. i think that's unfortunate, but i think what i'm most proud of here in arkansas is we have recognized the front tiers of medical science are being pushed back. doctors are saving the lives of babies born in nicus in the state. i think that's common ground we can look for right now at a time when unelected judges are setting the basic rules on this passionate issue. >> you yourself must have an opinion on this. when does a fetus have

constitutional rights in your mind? >> chuck, what i want to find in this debate is area where we can agree what we should do in a civilized society. if a baby can survive outside of its mother's womb in a nicu as amazing doctors in this country are able to do, then we should protect that life. there are a lot of issues and divisive debates. earlier in this year in the senate, we proposed legislation that would have said if a baby is born during attempted abortion, that baby has the right to medical care. every democrat in senate voted against that law in one of the most extreme votes i've seen cast. >> you have sponsored a bill that wanted to declare that life began at conception. you did that in the house, but you do not support a similar bill that rand paul introduced. why the change? >> chuck, i haven't reviewed

senator paul's bill. i believe life begins at conception. that's the standard most republicans have held as well. they understand there are certain tragic cases like rape or incest or when a mother's life is in danger that we should make account for. that's the position ronald reagan had as well. i believe life begins at conception. we should try to find ways in which we can protect the most innocent lives that can survive. >> is it hard to make the -- if you believe that life begins at conception, then how do you justify an exception for rape and incest? >> because we live the in a democratic society. i recognize not everybody shares my views. that's why i say that one of the major problems of having unelected judges make these kinds of decisions is we don't have the ability to have those democratic debates. have an open and frank

conversation without playing within the guardrails that unelected judges have put up in this country. states are going to make different decisions. new york state earlier this year adopted an extreme abortion law that would allow abortion up to the point of delivery. some politicians in virginia this year proposed even euthanizing children that are born. i think those are extreme positions. what we should have in the country is the ability to bait these in a way. >> should this be a political decision or a medical decision? i say this. you brought up the science. you talked the arkansas bill was trying to match the science. should this be a -- should you guys be getting a panel of medical doctors to decide this is when a fetus is viable. should this be decided by medical professionals and not by frankly i don't think you or i went to medical school.

>> medical science informs these decisions. medical science is advancing. ten or 15 years ago a child might not have been able to survive at 22 weeks. but as science advances, that informs our debate. it's true from the other perspective as well. we have horrific practices possible by medical science such as screening for abortion. people who look for various kinds of genetic defects or indicators. and they want to abort a child that may not even have those illnesses or those diseases when they're born. i think those are barbaric practices that any civilized nation should not permit. >> do you want roe completely overturned or done in such a way where there is a basic protection. you talked about a democratic process. it is nearly 2 to 1 in the exit poll in 2018 of folks favoring keeping roe as is.

i think these are decisions that the american people ought to make through their elected representatives. again, people are going to make different decisions. those decisions will have more democratic legitimacy as some of its centers in planned parenthood said if they're available for democratic debate. if people of differing view .sthrough their elected representatives can make these decisions informs by all the relevant facts. >> let me move to iran. i want to playing something angus king said. >> i don't think there's faulty sbail. the unanswered question is are they reacting to our assertions of actions in the middle east or are we reacting to them? that's an unanswered question for me.

>> do you concede that the intelligence may be that folks are interpreting it the way they want to interpret it. >> chuck, i've read the intelligence not just over the last two weeks but for the last four and a half years. the intensity and the frequency of this intelligence reporting is significantly heightened over the last two to three weeks. i don't have any doubts that iran started taking provocative action two to three weeks ago. united states on the recommendation of our military made decisions like deploying aircraft carrier to the region. we didn't do those to prepare for military action against iran. we did those things to deter military action by iran. >> the president wants to sit down with the high tola or row hahny and negotiate this. what do you think? >> we're focusing on trying to deter military action against the personnel and allies in the region. that's not fruitful conditions for sitting down with any foreign leader.

iran is an outlaw regime that has been waging a low-grade war against the united states. war has turned hot at times. they attacked vessels in the persian gulf. one of the deadliest bombs was smuggled in from iran. some of the americans as i write about would be buried in arlington cemetery. they're at a site of heightened tension. >> why do you think a war would be as easy as you seem to describe. one strike, last strike. there was a lot of that talk about iraq and obviously that turned out to be not so easy. >> chuck there's a whole range of military options the department of justice does. no one to my knowledge is proposing what you saw in iraq with 150,000 troops mass to invaud a country, overthrow its

government, and govern 80 million iranians. we would like iranians to live in a normal country -- >> so, you're not advocating regime change? >> we would like to see the regime change its behavior. but my point about the first strike and last strike is the united states is not going to take the first strike here. if iran attacks the dwriets or the allies in the first strike it will be up to america in a time and manner of our choosing to take the last strike because our military will devastate theirs. >> before i let you go, "sacred duty," tell me one place you should tell washingtonians, if they've not been to one part of arlington national cemetery they should see? >> every headstone in arlington tells a story. as i write about the old guard of arlington provides to the heroes. if you really want to see a living testament to the heroism

of our soldiers, sailers, airmen. go to section 60. it's unusual that it's got so many visitors, so many family members, so many momentos. it can be sad. but especially as we approach memorial day, even though i know it's the saddest acre in america, i prefer to think about it as the noblest acre in america. >> i find it inspirational. that's for sure. tom cotton from arkansas, thanks for coming on and sharing your views. much appreciated. >> thanks chuck. >> when we come back why voters hurt by the trade war are still likely to support president trump, but there's a reason the president is backing off other tariffs. that's next. other tariffs. that's next. it's tough to quit smoking

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>> we are back. data download time. if there's one policy president trump has always believed in, it's tariffs. mr. trump's trade war with china escalated this week when he increased tariffs on goods imported from china. president xi responded with tariffs of his own.

those chinese tariffs lit states politically that could be impacted in 2020. the top ten states will be hit the hardest, eight of them voted for president ufrp are the in 2016 which on the surface would be bad news in 2020. while he could lose support in indiana and kansas, these states aren't likely to switch, they may be willing to take pain if it means pushing back against china. keep an i didneye on the senate in places like iowa and texas. not all red states are created equal which is why it's a different story when it comes to auto tariffs. this week the president delayed hikes on auto tariffs by up to six months. why? just look at where many of these auto workers live. president trump won each of these frmerly democratic states.

lose a view of those voters who don't like the president's trade policy and trump will likely lose those states and the election overall. president trump seems to believe that trade wars are win able and tariffs are a weapon and answer. so far he's been careful to make sure those tariffs don't fall where they could hurt him the most in the electoral college. we want to announce the third annual meet the press film festival with the american film institute. here's what we're looking for, the best short form documentaries there are which will be show cased in october in washington. you can find more information at afi.org or meetthepress.com if you're a filmmaker ready to submit. when we come back the restrictive abortion laws and the role they could play in 2020.

back now with end game. and we're going to focus on abortion here at the end. as we were discussing, democrats don't like when the debate is about late term abortions and republicans don't like it when rape and incest comes up for debate. here was interesting republican reaction to the alabama law this week. >> it goes further than i believe, yes. >> there's no exexception for rape or incest, it's an e eccextreme law. >> it's going to be up to the

court. senator richard shelby from alabama. when he was a democrat, he supported an act in the senate to cod fie, essentially, abortion. now he's pro-life now that he's a republican. where is this headed? >> you see so many republicans responding this way, it was mccarthy, ron mcdonald -- >> the president. >> the president. because they understand this could change the balance of passions in the culture wars of this country. i covered the women's march and women who believed that trump would never be a threat to abortion rights. these laws that are passing are not just passing in one state. they're passing in multiple states with no exception for rape and incest. it's not just alabama. i think this is a potential for democrats to reach out to these moderates who, by the way, a number of them did vote for democrats in the 2018 midterm elections. but for moderate suburban women

this is an issue for sure, especially if the laws keep pushing the envelope, even if they don't make it to the supreme court because so many are so similar. >> democrats are going to be running using pat robertson in their adds saying it's extreme. >> yes. any law for emotional and purity reform has to strike a balance. i think the heartbeat bills in georgia and other states drive home how early a heartbeat is detectable. so the movement, since it's basically shutdown democratic issue, has to be about public persuasi persuasion. those bills help, alabama doesn't. >> rich, i agree with you. i think the alabama bill is obviously extreme, it was designed to get to the supreme court and get there rapidly.

so if it ultimately gets to that court, the interaction between the court's calendar and the election calendar is going to be very interesting. and i also agree with you. i think this is an issue that, for the pro choice side has never had the kind of urgency has it has -- passion as it has on the anti-choice side. but this could flip that. and and for the life of me, i do not understand why you wouldn't even have an exception for rape or incest. >> you know, gene, an open supreme court seat didn't fire up the left. it is one of these things that the right is so laser focussed on in the grass roots in particular, that it hasn't -- does this actually -- is the crying -- you know, is the idea roe on the ballot -- >> this is why politically i

think the alabama law is such a political misfire. because number one, i'm not at all convinced the supreme court would take up this case. i think it's going to be struck down in the district court level. the same result at the appeals court level. i'm not sure the supreme court would grant cert on this extreme case. and this gives something, a focal point, for abortion rights supporters to vote on. this is a -- it's an iconic sort of thing, no exceptions, no nothing. it was interesting hearing senator cotton say, the judges shouldn't be making these decisions. in fact, what's the alternative? there's no consensus on abortion in this country, and i don't think it's going to be. there's no morally consistent compromise position. >> heidi, i get the sense democratic presidential candidates don't want abortion to be front and center, but it's going to be.

>> i don't know they want it but it's going to be. watch what happened the last 24, 48 hours, especially the women candidates who haven't had a strong a spotlight on them this cycle, it's a time for them to distinguish themselves. and i think there's a broader framing opportunity for democrats, what is pro-life, what is pro-mama, pro-baby. the same states with these laws also have some of the highest infant mortally rates. our friends at "dateline" are launching "13 alibis" ability a convicted murder spending years in prison over a crime he says he didn't commit. that's all we have for today. thank you for watching. we'll be back next week.

because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." nday, it's "meet the press. plants capture co2. what if other kinds of plants captured it too?

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flights, hotels, cars, activities. expedia. everything you need to go. welcome to "kasie dc." i'm kasie hunt. we're live every sunday from washington from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. eastern. tonight brand new reporting about transactions tied to president trump that deutsch bank flagged as subpoenas. plus democrats pour subpoenas on the white house, but so far little to see for it. will they have to impeach to get answers. new laws on abortion send

the nation to political corners