thanks to chuck. erin, eli and donna, all of you for watching. that does it for us. i i i'm nicole wallace. mtp daily with chuck todd starts right now. >> i was just tweeting. i was buying the five seconds. thank you, nicole. tonight, are we varying towards a constitutional crisis? president trump abruptly ends a meeting with democrats. he won't legislate if they litigate. did speaker pelosi lay out a case for impeachment? one on one with hoyer, an eyewitness to it. the biggest question, what do they do now? if it's wednesday, it's "meet the press daily."

good wednesday evening. i'm chuck todd in washington and we reached the point of a political crisis that could become an actual constitutional crisis. we don't use those phrases lightly here at "meet the press." president has been stone walling democratic investigations for weeks and today in a surprise rose garden press conference, he said he basically told democrats at a meeting at the white house there will be no legislating, period, as long as they are investigating. that rose garden appearance after pelosi held a meeting with her caucus and accused the president of being engaged in the most significant cover-up in modern history. folks, any chance of actual legislating has pretty much gone out the window and that was weeks ago, months ago, realistically, but still, to see it like this. president seized on pelosi's allegations and abruptly ended a meeting at the white house with

democratic leaders. they were supposed to talk about making a deal on infrastructure, how to pay for it in particular but the president threw a major road block in what felt like a planned blindside. >> instead of walking in happily into a meeting, i walk in to the other room and i told senator schumer, speaker pelosi, i want to do infrastructure. i want to do it more than you want to do it. i'd be really good at that. that's what i do. but you know what? you can't do it under these circumstances. so get these phony investigations over with. whether or not they carry the big "i" word out, i can't imagine that but they probably would because they do whatever they have to do. >> then moments after the president mentioned the "i"

word, we heard pelosi lay out a case for impeachment. >> the fact is, in plain sight, in the public domain, this president is obstructing justice and he's engaged in a cover-up. and that could be an impeachable offense. ignoring the subpoenas of congress, article iii of the nixon impeachment. >> as the president keeps upping the stakes with democrats, hoping to drive a wedge in the party and with at least 30 house democrats and one republican calling for an impeachment inquiry, wondering if democratic leadership is starting to agree with them. here's what house majority jim clyburn said compared to what he said this morning, before the president's planned blow-up. >> if you did a secret ballot among the democratic caucus, yes or no on impeachment, what would

the majority likely be? >> the majority would be no. the vast majority would, in fact, support impeachment. just not now. >> so there you go. both statements can be true, as you can hear there. is the mood in democratic leadership changing on impeachment? joining me now, someone who was inside that wild white house meeting today and also the number two house democratic leadership. maryland congressman and house majority leader hoyer. nice to see you, sir. >> chuck, good to be with you. >> let me just, look, you were an eyewitness. tell us what happened. >> first of all, it was a sad d day. we were prepared to do the business and the campaign campaigned on infrastructure, we campaigned on infrastructure. we had a meeting three weeks ago. frankly, not much has changed. we were conducting oversight

hearings as we think is our responsibility. at that time, we were investigating. we were trying to get to the bottom of the facts of what has been done, when it was done and who did it. so nothing really changed except apparently the use of word cover-up, but in any event, it was a sad day because what the president of the united states said, i will not do the people's business if you continue to exercise your oversight authority. he used the word investigation, and we use "oversight authority" but whatever word you use, it is our constitutional responsibility to pursue the facts. >> take me back to the start of the meeting. you're there at the white house. it's on the president's schedule. it looks like we assume it's going to be one of these things that we and the press would cover you there, the house leaders on one side. what happened? was he there when the meeting began? >> he was not there. well, first of all, the meeting didn't begin, but when we walked into the cabinet room, it was

different. and what was different was the curtains were drawn on the windows looking out on the rose garden. so when i said, that's kind of funny. up wonder if somebody was taking pictures or something, made a mistake, didn't put the curtains back in place. we could not see outside of the room. we were there for about 10 minutes. the president was about 10 minutes late coming in, and what i noticed is there was no chair set for where he regularly sits. so there is no doubt in my mind this was a show with no go on infrastructure. the president was angry. reiterating what he said in the state of the union, essentially, that he would not do the people's business if we continued to have oversight hearings, investigations, and try to look at documents we think are relative to legislative business. and then the president walked

in, 10 minutes late, clearly had no intention of going around the room as he usually does and shaking hands, but stood at the one end of the cabinet table, closest to the door, leading to the oval office, and said, nancy pelosi has accused me of cover-up. there is no cover-up. i'm not covering up, and therefore, i'm not going to proceed. i'm not going to go through this meeting and essentially, then turned on his heels and walked out. it was a little bit like the meeting that you may recall where we were talking about border security and he asked nancy pelosi, will you support the wall? she said no. that was about four or five minutes into the meeting and he said, okay, and he walked out. that seems to be his style, but it is interesting that, not liking a cover-up, this is a, frankly, threatening the legislative body, the democrats, particularly, in the congress,

and the american people. i will not do your business if you continue to investigate me. >> all right, well, he's obviously calling, you know, put this in poker terms, he's calling your bluff, or what he thinks is a bluff about impeachment, and he clearly knows that if it's dividing the party, maybe that's harsh, it certainly is a debate in your caucus and your party. what do you do now? >> chuck, let me tell you what is not a bluff. we'll continue to do our duty. we'll continue to have oversight hearings. we're going to continue to ask for documentation and the testimony of witnesses that we believe are relevant, in particular, to the russia investigation. the fact that russia may have cooperated with, worked with, had information from individuals in our country to undermine our democracy is a critically important issue and tend to continue to look into that and get to the bottom of it.

we also are going to go where the facts lead us. that's our responsibility. that's our duty. so if this is a poker game, we're going to ante up. >> this all happened after you had a members only caucus meeting, which, it appears just publicly, jim clyburn said it seemed to change lightly. is there a growing group in your caucus essentially feeling as if they may have no choice but to go to impeachment? >> chuck, i think the honest answer is every time the president says "i will not cooperate," every time the president says, "i won't give you any information" or any time the president, in effect, covers up, there are more members who say, well, we may not have any alternative, but even at the caucus this morning, the general feeling. a lot of people thought we ought to move ahead but they were

prepared to continue on the path of getting the information and not going before we have solid information as to what action ought to be taken. but i don't think there was any rush to judgment, but there is no doubt that every time the president refuses to cooperate, contrary to my view, the members become more frustrated and more inclined. >> so does this mean, let's be realistic, none of us thought, ideologically, there was going to be a majority that you guys could find to figure out how to pay for infrastructure, but let's set that aside because unfortunately, that's not the debate we're having. are you guys going to be able to keep the government open? are you going to be able to raise the debt ceiling? forget infrastructure, but you've got to do the bare minimum. is that doable? >> we'll be able to do it. we'll pass legislation that does all of that. i don't know about the infrastructure because we need the cooperation and leadership of the president of the united

states. i sat at the white house a few weeks ago. the president response was, steny, i agree with you. need to do that. the expectation is, this is what this meeting would have been about. there's no reason why this meeting couldn't go forward. we agreed we need infrastructure for today, for tomorrow, and the competitiveness of our people and the creation of jobs for our people. >> is it politically -- >> we're going to move ahead on doing our appropriation bills. we're going to move ahead on making sure we do the responsible thing and hopefully the senate and the president will help and cooperate, not for us, not for us, not for democrats, but for the american people, after all, he represents the american people, as we do and he's acting on their behalf in infrastructure or other matters, the budget, debt limit, it's his responsibility and ours. >> look, i know you've got to run. i want to ask you about justin amash, the republican from michigan. he's laid out a case for

impeachment more detailed than anybody on the democratic side of the aisle. does that complicate your ability to tell the members, hey, hold your water? >> no, i think it complicates a lot of republicans who are stone walling in terms of reviewing and coming to grips with what the facts lead them to. i think the fact that a republican member of congress has now done that makes it pretty difficult for the republicans not to say, well, there is smoke. love to see whether there's fire. >> congressman steny hoyer, i know you've got to run to votes. thank you very much for sharing your views. >> appreciate it, bye-bye. >> let me bring in our panel of reporters. carol lee, nbc news, correspondent. michael steele, former rnc chair and doug thornell. what did you think of steny hoyer's description of the darkened windows, couldn't see outside there. they walked into a trap. >> oh, completely.

it was an ambush. the president is disingenuous thereowiatinnarrating, and thought i was going to my happy place. >> no chair for the president. never was going to happen. >> in about half an hour's time before the president walked in and he was late, the entire thing was scrambled. they decided to do the press conference. the president notified his aids that he wanted to do it. there was some division among aides about that and scrambled the whole thing and he never intended to, from that point forward, he never intended to have the meeting. that's according to reporting by my post colleagues and then he walks in, sees hoyer and everybody else and they realized almost immediately, that

realization in his retelling, they realized what was about to happen. >> carol, what did you pick up? >> in some ways, this is the go-to move. he gets in a box and feels like he's not going to win. we saw this with the immigration meeting before and with kim jong-un in north korea, the last summit he had, you know, ending it abruptly and holding a press conference. there's drama. >> it's what deal makers do. got to lowalk away. >> not going to get any legislation. once you get into infrastructure and how you pay for it. the republicans and democrats have always been divided how to pay for it and even within the own parties but at least pretended they were going to try and work it out and here, not going to go there and probably not going to get what he wants on trade, so all he can do is try to draw democrats out and get to a point of where voters are more disgusted with what they're doing than what he's doing. >> one thing about donald trump, never thinking long-term.

it's always short-term, short-term, short-term. but short-term, he looks at this and says, oh, wedge issue for them. and it is right now. >> it is right now. i mean, he's got a number of wedge issue cards he can play. certainly the "i" word someone -- is one of them. and now the whole thing around infrastructure. showing that the president was willing to come into the room to have the conversation, and damn it, they stopped me, they shut me down. nancy pelosi beforehand said she was not serious. >> can you imagine if you stopped going to meetings every time the president insulted you? nobody would show up for meetings. even his own staff. >> you'd have a very long breakfast. that's how that would work. no leaving the office to go to the meeting. but that's the way the trump team is playing this. from what i understand, there was a lot of giddiness. although there was some

disagreement, there was giddiness, like, we got you sort of deal. it shows the immaturity of this white house. three years in. they're still playing small ball. and it's amazing to me just how, to use my word again, feckless republicans are in responding to the small ball. all adds up to your point about how voters look at this in the end and it could hurt them. >> he's trying to make democrats own gridlock by doing investigations but in some ways, sharing the gridlock pain now. >> i think he gave democrats a gift today and they're already talking about it. he's basically shut down the government and now shutting down doing any work for the american people to protect himself. and to protect his interests. democrats will push this for, i think this is similar to what he talked about owning the government shutdown, and now owning not getting anything done

in washington. this was a complete stunt. there were podium placards. >> the only answer they're claiming and correct me if i'm wrong, they had this ready, they didn't know when they were implementing it. >> they're in the closet. >> get the no collusion placard out. >> handouts in the crowd that were the same thing of the back ari -- placards, so you can take them home. >> democrats should make the case the president is only out for himself and he's not interested in doing the work of the american people. he also can't make deals. he can't make a deal on immigration. hasn't been able to make a deal on infrastructure. health care, he wasn't able to make a deal. prescription drugs. this guy ran as a deal maker and every time, as carol mentioned, gets in a box because he can't pay for the infrastructure bill. >> you work for leadership though in the democratic side. you have to, on one hand, keep an eye on the national ball and

i know that's one hand. on the other hand, rankin file members in a different place. what are you thinking? it seems like we're stumbling towards impeachment. >> not sure of that. there's not unity within the democratic caucus for impeachment. you've got different sides. it's not just, you know, progressives, front liners, the new members. there is no unity around it. there is unity around holding him accountable, continuing to investigate him, and following the facts. i think that is where democrats want to keep going and nancy pelosi is a very strategic leader. she's not going to lead her soldiers into a battle she knows we can't win because mitch mcconnell is not going to bring up a vote on it. >> if democrats go down this path and winds up like the mueller report, they were promising all of these goods and it's not there. >> it's foggy.

>> foggy or murky, then they've really gone in a direction that could very much hurt them in 2020. >> and i think that's why, to the point you just made about what nancy is doing, why all of the sudden, starting to reframe the narrative. you're right. there is confusion. there is no organized. everybody wants to do impeachment and rank and file, let's coalesce the reason. saw her first in laying out that. >> that seems to be what she's missing. >> trying in a subtle way to separate what's happening now versus what happened in the period covered by the mueller report, and if you listen carefully to what she said today, she's talking about what the president is doing in blocking investigations, the current ones, some of which are an outgrowth of the mueller report and some of which are not and saying that obstruction of justice, in her phrase, is a potentially impeachment offense.

he's not going all the way there. but that is a separate set of arguments than the one the president is making rhetorically and that he made today about, you know, the mueller report cleared me. i'm completely blameless here. how can the democrats be saying what they're saying? >> michael steele, i do feel as if careful, trump has in his head, he can basically do what clinton did and i know he has this in his head, but everybody else that's going along with us, i mean, careful catching this car. begging for this. keep thinking, really? it's only just amash, but mitt romney will have an open mind. what are you doing? it seems like you're playing with matches near a gas can. >> there's a great deal of distance between the match and the gas. >> for now. >> the calculation is the democrats won't be able to get them closer than they are at the moment. any kind of plays to what we

were talking about, what is the narrative or the coalescing narratives to where democrats will make the case for impeachment, that doesn't come off wholly political and wholly sort of anti-trumpian and that's the sweet spot that trump is in right now, knowing that his republicans aren't going to -- >> i understand that but what senate republican, and i'll have one on, john kennedy. my god, if he comes from a state in louisiana where if you refuse to work somebody investigating you, you wouldn't work with anybody. everybody is always stabbing somebody in the back with louisiana politics. republicans, do they want their only accomplishment to be protecting trump? >> remains to be seen. that's what it's been so far. and everyone, it's all a calculation of their own political fate. if they think, look, i'm a firm believer if they think suddenly their own careers are on the line, they might not get reelected, they'll fully switch in a second.

>> politics is personal, not local, personal. >> whether they get there at some point before november 2020, you know, who knows. >> we've seen that with senate republicans on important votes. the ones up this year are voting with the president. look, i think the democrats do have a card to play. >> they weren't crazy about this version of the president. >> how can you be? >> we've seen that before too. not crazy. >> how can you be? the information in the mueller report is damning, but if you're a democrat, i'm wondering, why don't they call stormy daniels before congress? >> you would start trolling him. you sound like ryan fallon. he said, when are democrats going to stop letting trump dunk on them? >> that is a legitimate case, right? >> you're going, oh, yeah? troll for troll. >> why not? what's the reason not to? he's an unindicted co-conspirator in that case. why not bring her before

congress? bring karen mcdougal? >> this goes to, what i think you have a democratic party, people like you, doug, who have gone through this over the years, we always play with one set of rules and they play by another. >> yeah, and i think trump's hat tricks today are a good example of that. he thought, wait a minute, the democrats are getting the upper hand here or at least the top hand. >> that was the thing. like, democrats were not. this is an uncomfortable debate with or without him. >> the same set of investigations were happening yesterday and this morning when they were still planning to have the infrastructure meeting. what happened was he heard or saw somebody send him that nancy pelosi accused him of a cover-up and he went, you know. >> this whole idea been on his mind and said in the state of the union, it was the whole

peace and legislation, we can't have war and investigations. he laid it out. just went dormant for a little while. now felt like, had to rev it back up. >> this is what roy and roger stone would say to do. >> it goes back to the gas tank analogy. he's standing in between the match and the gas tank right now. >> as a conductor? >> very comfortable there. >> very comfortable there. and this is the part that everyone needs to understand. he's very comfortable there. so how do you deal with an actor who plays asymmetrically and doesn't mind standing between the gas can and the match? >> this is what i think. i think you have too many leaders in the democratic party who think somehow, this white house is going to conform at some point. >> they're never going to conform. >> don't you think there's a little naivety? >> i think democrats are trying to establish some normalcy again because that's what they want. it's not going to happen with

trump. he is who he is. and we'll have to deal with him. but i do think that democrats have to think about some different ways to approach the president because he isn't playing a fair game here. >> here's what i don't understand though, what democrats haven't done. make republicans vote on bills that would tighten our campaign finance laws to prevent russian interference in the future, or national security, election security. where are the bills that marco rubio would co-sponsor, which we know he would on anything election interference. where's the cleverness? >> i think that is the best lead into a counternarrative. and it gets you beyond the whole politics of mueller, impeachment, put some legislation on the board. that the members have. don't worry about, we have to wait for the white house. put an infrastructure bill out there. put the things, the pieces out

there that you can then point to republicans, so, you want to do that or not? >> in defense of house democrats, chairman, they have pass add good deal of legislation. >> i've heard this. >> it's true. >> sitting in violence and collecting dust in the sand. the equality act. they're doing it. >> as he said, he'll be the grim reaper, if necessary. >> that's your problem. >> in part because of all this nonsense that's happening here. >> hitting the pause button here. you have to stick around though. we have a lot more on today's breaking news. always colorful senator john kennedy of louisiana. i wonder if he heard what i said about louisiana politics about all this. >> let me say something about my democratic friends in the house.

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it's fuel for thought. welcome back. president trump today ended legislative talks with democrats after speaker pelosi accused him of an historic cover-up. in response to the president's actions, some republicans pushing back against his suggestion that investigation and legislation cannot be done at the same time.

>> here's my view. kavanaugh was pretty contentious. i didn't like what happened but i'm still showing up and i'm still trying to find common ground. all i would say is just try to rise above it if you can. your country is looking for leadership. we need leadership, and my advice to the president would be to try to find solutions to problems like infrastructure and prescription drugs and our broken immigration system and see if we can do to things at once. fight with each other and find common ground. >> for more on how republicans react to this, joined by john kennedy of louisiana. also a member of the judiciary committee. senator, i mean, of all states, louisiana, if you refuse to work for people trying to stab you in the back or investigate you, i don't think it would be a state. >> well, that's fair. and certainly, i listen to your

very able colleagues there talking about this. i mean, i don't know what the president's motivation is. it could be machiavellian. i understand why he's frustrated. i think that some, i don't want to speak too broadly, some members of the house leadership are just toying with him. to urinate, get off the pot, impeach if you think he needs to get impeached but stop toying him. you say, well, they're in good faith. some have said that, maybe some, but i'll give you an example. house ways and means chairman. i've got to see trump's tax returns because it will help me evaluate how well the irs conducts audits. right. and jimmy died of natural causes. nobody believes that. what i tell my house leadership friends, either impeach him or

go ahead and -- remember the trump administration in contempt and get it into court to get back to work. one other thing, i was critical of my republican colleagues in the senate because we can do more too. we need to bring some of those bills to the floor that your colleagues just talked about. >> let me ask you this. >> okay. >> do you think it would be cathartic for the country for essentially, you know, impeachment is not an automatic, doesn't mean you're voting out of office. bringing charges, having a trial essentially, and the house is the prosecutor and you guys would be the jury. would that be the most healthy cathartic exercise in that everybody would see everything? there wouldn't be a redacted this or a redacted that? public hearings and a public trial and in some ways, either everybody would see for themselves? is there any part of that you think, as nasty as that could

get or divisive, it's better than this? >> here's what i honestly think, chuck. i think the people in america who care about this issue, which is political, as you know, are the well intentioned crankwanks. the ones center right, obey their law, pay their taxes. i don't think they care about who is winning or losing but expect congress to try to do things to make their lives better and they look at us. i've said this before. they look at all of us and wonder how we made it through the birth canal. they msay, people back home, wh don't you guys spend a little bit of time thinking about the next generation instead of all of your time thinking about the next election? and that's true of republicans too. i mean, i gave a speech on the floor today. why haven't we brought a bill on

prescription drugs? there's common ground there. why weren't we allowed to consider a bill reforming the national emergencies act? >> what does mitch mcconnell say? i mean, the democrats will say mitch mcconnell doesn't want to give house democrats bills, they're due and all this. what does leadership say to you? >> he's not chairman of every committee. and i'm not, i didn't come on here to be personal and call him out names. i'm just saying -- >> he's in charge. >> i was sent up here and i think most senators were, to deliberate, not to participate and delay and see, here's what some of my colleagues say to me. kennedy, we're in an election cycle. this isn't the way it's done. well, first, we're always in an election cycle. number two, maybe what i'm suggesting is not the way it's been done, but frankly, for the last 10 years, what we've been doing, it sucks.

secondly, they say, you're taking a pretty big risk there. maybe we are. maybe we'll win. what's the problem with putting a prescription drug bill, we don't need the president of the united states' permission or the house's permission. on the floor of the united states senate and see if we can pass it. i promise, i promise you, i'm not saying it will pass. i don't know. we'll find out. but we have more in common on that issue that n we don't. same on reforming our national emergencies act. >> viewers are sitting there going, probably a lot of people going ape mmen and then they'reo going, and you're one of 100, but why you alone can't do it. >> i can't bring a bill to the floor of the senate. only the majority leader can. and in the house of representatives, it's even worse. if speaker pelosi, she wouldn't do this, but if speaker pelosi told all her people to line up and join the taliban and they'd

say, where's the line? i'm not saying she would do that. of course she wouldn't do that, but my point is there are two people running the house and we both know it. nancy pelosi and one is congresswoman ocasio-cortez. there are more people involved in the senate. >> well, a lot of people, what you just said basically look at it, it's essentially the president and mitch mcconnell who decide what gets negotiated and what gets done. let me ask you this. the president said, you're not going to legislate. >> we're not legislating anyway. >> so when are some of you going to go rogue and meet with like-minded house members and come up with your own infrastructure deal? your own prescription drug deal? >> i don't have any control over the house and the two people i just mentioned do, one has the lever and the other has the media, if you will, but in the senate, yeah, talking about it a lot. and some of my colleagues agree

with me and i'm not saying we've done nothing in the senate. we've had some fine judges. i know you may disagree. listen to my words. not saying we've done nothing. i'm saying we could do more. and put a prescription drug bill on the floor of the united states senate, by god, and let senator bs senats be senators. >> have you read the full mueller report? >> i have. >> what did you make of justin amash's take? >> you're going to have to refresh my memory. >> the republican. he looks at it -- >> oh, yes, he's entitled to his opinion. this is america. he's entitled to his opinion. i don't agree with him. when a prosecutor takes hold of a case, his job is, or her job to do one or two things. indict or don't indict. if mr. mueller changed his mind and thinks he ought to be indicted, he needs to step up in front of god and country and say

so, but he said no indictment and he didn't say, i've read it, he didn't say indictment because of doj policy. he said i didn't decide not to indict because of the doj policy. >> that, we only know from bill barr. we have yet to hear that from bob mueller and that's something we want to hear. republican from louisiana, always appreciate it. >> and chuck, if you speak ill of louisiana, god will punish you. >> not just huey long too. >> yes. does kentucky stand for fearful conservatives? governor's race, big trouble for the gop. governor's race, big trouble for the gop. ck gary, who's already won three cars, two motorcycles, a boat, and an r.v. i would not want to pay that insurance bill. [ ding ] -oh, i have progressive, so i just bundled everything with my home insurance. saved me a ton of money. -love you, gary! -you don't have to buzz in. it's not a question, gary.

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2020 vision. the race set for kentucky's gubernatorial election and we think it's an indicator of what to look for in 2020 with a trump-like figure running for reelection. >> we're grateful to be going forward into the general election. >> it wasn't a surprise to see republican governor matt bevin win his party's nomination for reelection but won with 52% of the vote against unknown challenger. the outspoken and brash bevin was trump before trump. in his reelection bid, could be a canary in the coal mine for the president in 2020. >> people in kentucky will have a very clear and distinct choice to make and the voters will decide. >> bevin has low approval numbers despite a relatively strong economy and a history of outperforming media polls and will be going up against a democrat this november in attorney general andy ba sheer that shares the last name of someone considered a more

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welcome back. some other breaking news this afternoon. another federal judge ruled in favor of democrats in their fight to get the trump administration to hand over documents. this time in a case involving a subpoena from congressional democrats. doug, i want to put this at you. this is yet another thing they're trying to get. one of the reasons i think the president feels like say, all they want to do is investigate is there isn't one thing the democrats are going after with trump. it's 30. because there are 30 things to go after. i'm not saying. i get it. but do democrats need to narrow their focus in order to get the public to buy in? >> you know, look, i think that the financial records are important. i think the taxes are important.

if i was telling democrats what to do, i think the, right now, the most important thing they should be calling for is bob mueller to testify. >> that's what i think. >> they need to create a television moment with someone who's respected by people on both sides of the aisle, someone who can give real insight into what happened in russia, and someone who, and right now, before, the main people, the main faces were donald trump, michael cohen, and the attorney general. >> yeah. >> you know, the deck was stacked against democrats there. bob mueller testifying, i'd focus on that. >> so mueller and stormy daniels. >> that would be number two. >> i mean, this, to me, is the challenge for democrats. i could keep track. for the state ag or the u.s. congress?

you know, deutsche bank, we hope has enough lawyers to keep track of it all. >> yeah, because i can't either. you probably do too. we have white boards in the office. all the democrats running. all the investigations. all that stuff. and because you can't keep track of it otherwise. democrats otherwise. democrats are in a quandary here. i can't give them advice. but it is their duty to go after all the balls that are theoretically in play, right? >> every single one, right. absolutely. and they would be darrell 96th their duty if they didn't. >> it is hard to know how it is being consumed by average americans and voters. whether it is coming across as a deluge of everything and anything, that there is an attack on the president or whether it meshes together. >> the swamp. >> that they're all just doing that. and you can see why democrats are, part of it is that they haven't done a good job of

outlining a very clear strategy. telling the public exactly what they're doing and what their end game is. it all just feels a little bit like shooting from the hip. >> so let's say impeachment ends up happening sometime this summer. that they get to this point where they feel like -- let's just do it. what do the presidentials do? what does joe biden do? >> i think in large measure, they stay on the sidelines. now that is a congressional action. it is washington. >> yeah. that's washington. and i don't think if you are a presidential candidate, you really want to weigh in on the unknown of an impeachment hearing. you just don't know where that will go. how it will be received by the public. i believe that's the democrats' ultimate -- >> impeachment will consume the presidential campaign. it will overshadow it. >> only to the extent that they keep getting asked about it.

>> we're going to have the hearing. you would have a television moment. >> if you're a presidential candidate, your opinion matters as much as what? >> i'm curious what it does to the race. i think if you're joe biden, if you're kamala harris, you have to make this a reason why you've got to get rid of trump in terms of, he is incapable -- >> are you talking about the investigations to get rid of trump? >> if he's incapable of doing the work. he's created a mess. he said he would come to washington to change things. he would drain the swamp. and look what we have now. it is more of a mess than it's ever been. that's why i'm focused on health care and the economy. and that's where they have to move things. >> i don't know whether you meant to do this or not. the best thing to happen to joe biden would be an impeachment inquiry. i think it frees the democratic race in a weird way. >> a fair poin that's a fair po. >> and biden is interesting

because he is, of all of them, he has more to risk by backing an impeachment process than others because of the way -- >> in the primary. and our colleague has asked him this question. doesn't answer it. and so -- >> yeah. >> he is, right? >> biden is actually doing what i say. >> what i'm trying to say here. again, it goes through oxygen. there's only so much oxygen. >> and some of them will be asked how they will vote. and maybe eventually have to vote on it. yeah. it becomes something that at the

moment is an abstraction. it isn't a huge thing that they have to say yes or no on. there is still a middle of the country. still middle of the road voters and you can alienate them either way. >> michael steel, he sounded like bob corker today. remember, bob corker was the one who started getting upset at mitch mcconnell. we want to vote on some stuff. and ron johnson is one of these senators who gets frustrated with the iron fist way that mcconnell runs the senate. how alone is kennedy? >> he is not alone in that regard. it will largely because in the tuesday meeting, the tuesday lunch meeting, i can guarantee, having sat in on a number of those meetings, there's a lot of conversation about how this is

playing out to the effects of the senate races. going into next year. a handful are a little bit dicey and purplish blue states. at the want to say, gee, mom and dad, look what i did. they cannot afford to go an entire year with nothing to show for it other than that. >> house democrats called kennedy's bluff and said okay. maybe there is a group of the willing. >> maybe even closed for 2019. look, i pointed out. they've been passing legislation that is popular with the american people. popular with republicans. and they should be holding up signs. where's mitch? i would be trying to bring the senate republicans more into this and applying pressure and blame on them for the fact that nothing is getting done in

washington. what are they could go besides -- they're doing judges but nothing else. >> that's it. there you go. >> if it's wednesday, that means there is a new chuck todd cast. my guest this week, leigh ann caldwell. and kimberly atkins we'll be right back. right back look limu. a civilian buying a new car. let's go. limu's right. liberty mutual can save you money by customizing your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. oh... yeah, i've been a customer for years. huh... only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

that's it for tonight. i'll be back tomorrow with more "meet the press" daily. it's "the beat" with ari melber. >> it's great to be here, chuck. thank you very much. good evening to everyone watching from home. we're here in washington on a wild day that continues to reverberate right now. let's begin with a number. three. it took exactly three minutes for the president to storm out of a meeting with congressional leaders claiming he could not discuss infrastructure policy unless congress halted its work overseeing the executive branch. democrat say president trump entered in full stunt mode. refusing to shake any hands and then turned his angry departure into a chance to lash out in public going to the rose garden to release a live tweet storm. vowing to shut down the government until democrats finished the investigation. this clash is full of theater to be sure. but it's theater against a substantive