the value of showing up at an important time in kids' lives. and that will do it for our thursday night broadcast. thank you so much for being here with us. good night from nbc news headquarters here in new york. i i am sort of surprised this story is not more wall to wall everywhere right now. i do think in coming days as people really absorb what this new indictment means, it may end up being as big a story as it deserves to be. as you by now may have heard, the wikileaks guy, julian assange, has been newly indicted. last month he was taken out of last month he was taken out of that embassy in london where he that embassy in london where he had been hiding for the past few had been hidi years trying to avoid criminal prosecution in multiple countries. it looks like sweden is pursuing it looks like sweden is pursuing rape charges against him now, rape charges against him now, the uk the uk has prosecuted him and now jailed him for jumping bail. but when he was pulled out of that embassy last month, he was charged in the united states with a computer hacking charge.

he was specifically charged for helping a u.s. soldier, chelsea manning, helping her try to break a password basically to cover up unauthorized access to classified materials, which manning was illegally downloading from a defense department computer for the purpose of sending them to wikileaks to publish. now, the u.s. laid that charge against julian assange. they said they wanted to bring assange to trial on that charge here in the united states. but he is not here in the united states, he's in the uk. and the uk has to decide whether or not they are going to extradite, whether or not they are going to ship him over here to face that criminal charge. that was the situation heading into today. now today, apparently the united states government has decided maybe they don't want the uk to extradite julian assange here to ever face trial. or at least that would appear to be the intriguing, fascinating and very worrying bottom line of

this remarkable thing that the justice department did today when they unsealed a new superseding indictment, so an additional indictment against assange. only this time it is not the only this time it is not the same kind of criminal allegation same kind of criminal allegation they made against him in the they made against him in the initial indictment. initial indictment. it's not some hacking computer it's not some hacking computer crime like crime like they originally charged him with. now as of today they are charging him with 17 counts under the espionage act. and these new charges are not about stealing classified information or outsmarting computer security systems in order to illegally obtain classified information. it's not about that. these new charges are trying to prosecute assange for publishing that stolen secret material, which was obtained by somebody else. and that is a whole different and that is a whole different kettle of fish than what he was kettle of fish than what he was initially charged with. initially charged with. there has never in this country there has never in this country been a successful prosecution been a successful prosecution under the espionage act of some under the espionage act of some third party for publishing third party for publishing something that somebody else something that somebody else stole or something that stole or something that otherwise made its way out of

otherwise ma the government while the government was trying to keep it secret. we've never in this country we've never in this country successfully charged somebody successfully charged somebody for publishing secret material. for publishing secret material. but by charging assange for but by charging assange for publishing that stuff publishing that stuff that was taken by manning, by issuing these 17 charges today, the justice department has just done something you might have otherwise thought was impossible. the justice department today, the justice department today, the trump administration today, the trump administration today, just put every journalistic just put every journalistic institution in this country on institution in this country on julian assange's side of the julian assange's side of the ledger, on his side of the ledger, on his side of the fight, which i know is fight, which i know is unimaginable. unimaginable. but that is because the but that is government is now trying to assert this brand new right to criminally prosecute people for publishing stuff. newspapers and magazines and investigative journalists and different entities publish secret stuff all the time. that is the bread and butter of what we do. right? there's a reason there's a reason it's called the 1st amendment that the u.s. government has never successfully made that a crime before.

but here with assange, they are but here with assange, they are trying to do it. trying to do it. and as a matter of law, this is and as a matter of law, this is not at all about julian assange not at all about julian assange and wikileaks doing what they and wikileaks doing what they did in the 2016 election. did in the 2016 election. this is not related to them this is not related to them working with russian working with russian intelligence material in 2016 to intelligence material in 2016 to try to help trump win the try to help trump win the election and to try to hurt election and hillary clinton. this is not about wikileaks and julian assange personally strategizing with trump campaign staffers about how to beat hillary clinton as they were releasing all of that information stolen by the russians. these new charges have nothing these new c to do with that. these new charges also frankly have nothing to do with the nature of the material that wikileaks published from the chelsea manning documents in 2010. what this is what this is is now a novel legal effort to punch a huge hole in the 1st amendment by labeling it spying, labeling it criminal espionage to publish secret stuff. in a country where we have a long, proud journalistic history

of journalistic entities publishing secret stuff. and of course this comes conveniently at a time when this administration, this president personally, is calling the press the enemy of the people. the president this week gleefully saying that his new attorney general is looking at bringing criminal charges, bringing criminal investigations against the president's personal enemies. the president expressing glee the president expressing glee about that this week at a about that this week at a political rally that he likes political rally that he likes his new attorney general for his new attorney general for doing that. doing that. and i am sure this president and i am sur would love to establish a new legal doctrine, a whole new legal lane for the u.s. government that's never existed before, where anyone who publishes stuff the government doesn't want published gets prosecuted by the justice department under the most serious statutes imaginable facing long prison terms for doing it. i'm sure this president would want that. i'm sure he is absolutely stupefied that he doesn't already have that power. but he doesn't have that power. he's never had it before. no president has.

this is the president who's saying that the fbi is committing treason. and the press is the enemy of the people. i'm sure he'd be happy to say that the press is committing treason, too, and espionage and all the rest of it. but what's going to happen next here is going to be fascinating because in order to pursue this prosecuti prosecution, the united states will prosecution, the united states will have to persuade great britain, our great ally, that they should extradite julian assange here to face these new charges. and from the uk's perspective, i and from the uk's perspective, i mean, mean, obviously, the uk and the u.s. have an incredibly important and close relationship that extends absolutely to having close and cooperative relationships on all sorts of law enforcement and intelligence matters. but i think there may be reason but i think there may be reason to not expect automatic british to not expect automatic british deference on something like deference on this. i i mean, for one thing, however special the relationship is between the u.s. and the uk, it may have become considerably less special once we inaugurated a new president that heads a new white house where they literally

can't even spell the name theresa may, who is prime minister of the uk. it's not like it's a tough name. they really can't manage it, ever. theresa may right theresa may right now, frankly, has bigger fish to fry. her role as prime minister is uncertain. the future of her government is the future of her government is very very british british politics has not teetered like this in a very long time but teeters right now more precipitously than ever thanks to the brexit disaster. that incidentally our own president has loud lly are supported and tried to link to his own presidential campaign. and honestly even if the u.s./uk relationship were as strong as ever, the brits really do have an unequivocally independent judiciary and legal system that was always going to consider this extradition request critically because it was always going to be controversial. it was controversial even when it was just the one computer hacking crime, right? now that it's espionage? i mean, it will not help the american case to extradite

julian assange that the u.s. is trying something totally novel on him, right? the u.s. has never successfully brought these kinds of charges ever before. i mean, i -- in generaling i'm going to tell you the bottom line here is stay tuned on this, but i think these 17 espionage charges against the wikileaks guy are a huge deal and a very dark development. chris hayes this evening called it a four-alarm development. i absolutely share that. i know, i know you, given everything else we know about the wikileaks guy, i can feel through the television right now your mixed feelings about what i am saying, right? i can feel what may be, perhaps, a certain lack of concern about julian assange's ultimate fate, right, given his own gleeful and extensive personal role in trying to help a hostile foreign government interfere in our election in order to install their chosen president with i know. i know.

i feel you. i got it. i feel you. i got it. but it is a recurring theme in but it is a r history. heck, it is a recurring theme in heck, it is a recurring theme in the bible that they always pick the bible that they always pick the least sympathetic figures to the least sympathetic figures to try this stuff on first. try this stuff on first. despite anybody's feelings about despite anybody's feelings about this spectacularly unsympathetic this spectacularly unsympathetic character at the center of this character at the center of this now international drama, you are now international drama, you are going to see every journalistic going to see every journalistic institution in this country, institution in this country, every 1 every 1st amendment supporter in this country, left, right, and center, swallow their feelings about this particular human and denounce what the trump administration is trying to do here because it would fundamentally change the united states of america. it would fundamentally change the balance of power between the people and our government. but as i said, in the first instance, it will be interesting to see what happens in britain, because they're going to have first crack at this. my guess is that these radical new charges, this novel new

effort by the justice department to turn publishing secret material into a violation of the espionage act for the first time ever, i think that's a good chance that will be viewed as controversial enough by uk authorities that it may preclude them from ever sending him over here to stand trial. i mean, they have rules of their own that preclude them from sending somebody to, for example, face a political prosecution. i don't know if that's how they i don't know if that's how they will define this sort of thing, will define thi but they should recognize that what assange is being charged with, regardless of how you feel about assange, it is a fundamentally novel and radical thing that the trump administration is trying to do. and that will matter to them when they make their extradition decision, which wasn't a sure thing, anyway. and while that is happening, meanwhile, literally today, britain is boiling its own totally different kettle of fish that will have profound implications for tereheresa may for the british government and for that country's relationship with us and every other country on earth. today was the first day of voting in the uk and in the netherlands in the european elections that are happening

over the next four days. uk and the netherlands vote today. tomorrow it's ireland and the tomorrow it's ireland and the czech republic. czech republic. on saturday it's latvia, malta on saturday it's latvia, malta and slovakia. and slovakia. and on sunday it's the other 21 and on sunday it's the other 21 european european countries. other 21 other 21 countries in the european union. these elections happen once every five years. these are elections to fill seats in the european parliament, which has 751 seats. there's going to be hundreds of millions of people voting over these four days. it looks like what we are likely to see as results from this voting is a whole bunch of far right anti-immigrant and fundamentally anti-european parties doing very well in these elections, which ironically will fill the european parliament. their idea is that they will hopefully destroy it from within. you may remember back in 2016 you may remember back in 2016 how the brexit referendum in the how the brexit referendum in the uk happened just a few months uk happened just a few months before our presidential election before our presidential election that year, that shocking result that year, that shocking result of that referendum where british of that referendum where british voters defied the polls and voters defied the polls and narrowly voted to pull up all narrowly voted to pull up all

the drawbridges and saw britain the drawbridges and saw britain off from europe, even though off from europe, even though they they really had absolutely no idea what that would mean or how they would do it. that brexit vote in the summer of 2016 was a global shock. at the time for us as americans, it was shocking. in retrospect, i think we now look back at that vote from the summer of 2016 and recognize that when just a few months later in that same year, november of that same year when our own polls proved wrong, when donald trump was all of a sudden elected president, of all people, i think now looking back with the advantage of both hindsight and a wide-angle lens, it seems at least plausible that that brexit vote in the summer of 2016 was a little bit of a harbinger for what was coming our way just a few months later in the fall of 2016. well, now here we are again with these european elections starting today. and we are seeing that dynamic that we saw at work in the brexit election in 2016 and the

trump election that fall, we are seeing that dynamic not only not reversed, we're seeing it accelerated in some ways, even as it is still being ham handedly supported by some of the same external forces whose nefarious aims are by now quite clear and easy to see. in the uk specifically, they literally just formed a party called the brexit party. and in these european parliament elections where brits voted today, the brexit party is considered likely to win the most votes. and again, these votes are for the european parliament, not for the british parliament. but ultimately after today if it's the brexit party representing the uk in europe, the already teetering theresa may government back home in london that already can't handle the brexit process, stop it, go through with it or find some half measure middle way through it, that brexit party election to the european parliament is going to give theresa may's government in london a really hard shove.

it's worth watching what's about to happen in britain. it's also worth watching overall over these next few days, particularly because we americans are still living through our own ongoing drama in 2016. look at what we're going through look at what we're going through this week. this week. look at what we're going through look at what we're going through these last couple of months. these last couple of months. we have had 63 straight days in we have had 63 straight days in washington of what amounts to washington of what amounts to total breakdown, total total breakdown, total stonewall, total all-out stonewall, total all-out brawling in washington since brawling in washington since mueller's investigation was mueller's investigation was ended 63 days ago, since ended 63 days ago, since mueller's report on what mueller's report on what happened in our 2016 election happened in our 2016 election and what happened with that and what happened with that russian interference effort was russian inte submitted to the trump administration and then submarined and we've never heard from robert mueller since. i mean, we are still right now day to day living through our own drama of our own bizarre 2016 election right now and what happened with those ex-te exter factors to influence it. well, this european election that's happening right now as we speak is a variation on the theme of what we went through. this is the same patterns, the same dynamic at work.

sometimes i think it's even easier to see that pattern when it happens to another country instead of your own. and it's sometimes easier to see when it's freaking dramatic. you got a sense of how dramatic this was going to be when we saw how this week of this big vote kicked off this week in europe. i know this is a little bit weird, but can we just talk about austria for a second? whether or not you think you care with austria, just trust me. this is -- it's worth learning this is -- it's worth learning what just happened in austria what just happened in austria because once you learn it, you because once are going to want to tell somebody else this story, like in a bar this weekend or at the water cooler at work or over a campfire on a long elevator ride. you're going to want to tell you're going to want to tell this story, but it really this story, but it really happened, and it's just happened happened, a in the past few days. all right. so austria is in the european union. they're one of the countries they're one of the countries that are voting on sunday i think is their vote. that are voting on sunday i think is their vote. their chancellor is this guy their chancellor is this guy who, yes, looks like it's take who, yes, looks like it's take your baby chancellor to work your baby chancellor to work day. day.

he is 32 years old. he is 32 years old. he won i01 the austrian government when his center right government got the most votes in the election that year. although his party got the most although his party got the most votes, they didn't get enough votes, the votes to form a government on their own and so the young chancellor had to decide what other entity in the austrian government he would go into coalition with in order to form a majority that would then run that country. and the young chancellor from the center right party decided he'd look around and pick who we would form a coalition with. he decided to pick the party that was founded by the ex-nazis. now, i do not mean that as an now, i do not mean that as an insult. insult. that is not like some ad hominem that is not l hyperbolic attack. i mean, we're talking about austria here, so -- ♪ there's a -- this was a party that was actually founded by actual ex-nauzs ex-n ex- ex-tual exnazis, real nazis. just speaking factually. they are called the freedom

party. and it's interesting, the and it's in government of russia, vladimir putin and his political party in russia have taken a keen interest in supporting the freedom party in austria. the year before the freedom party, this group founded by ex-nazis, the year before they were invited to join austria's coalition government and help form the government in that nation, the top official of austria's freedom party was invited to moscow to sign a cooperation agreement with vladimir putin's party, with united russia, which is putin's party. then the following year was when then the following year was when that freedom party official got that freedom party official got into the austrian government. into the austrian government. he became the vice chancellor of he became t austria, the number two guy in the whole government. that raised all sorts of interesting questions about to what the impact would be of that party taking power in austria while having a formal cooperation agreement with vladimir putin's party in moscow. i i mean, as part of the coalition deal, that center right young chancellor joined with the freedom party in order to form a majority together. the freedom party got half the cabinet agencies, including the foreign minister and the defense

minister. they got control of the nation's they got control of the nation's intelligence services. intelligence services. western intelligence agencies western intelligence agencies were so freaked out by that, were so freaked out by that, they stopped sharing they stopped sharing intelligence with the austrian intelligence with the austrian intelligence agencies because intelligence agencies because they just assumed once the they just assumed once the freedom party guys got ahold of freedom party guys got ahold of anything sensitive that might be anything se of interest to moscow, these austrian guys would just ship it straight to putin so he could have a look at it. they stopped sharing intel with the austrian government. and now all along, the young chancellor in austria who decided to partner with these guys, he'd had to defend the fact he went into coalition with these guys. had to defend them every time they come out with some new racist statement, some new anti-semitic trope. he's had to defend them shutting down all the monitoring and law enforcement agencies against the nazis in austria. what happens when you put ex-nazis in front of the people who are doing these things. the young chancellor has gone out of his way, particularly

when talking to the international press, to say that he doesn't worry at all about the links between the freedom party and russia. he's gone out of his way to say the links between the freedom party, his governing partners in russia, is all overblown. on friday, this past week, two news organizations published this video which -- there we go. which shows the vice chancellor of austria, the number two guy in that government. the head guy of the freedom party. that's him on the right side of that's him on the right side of your screen with the wide neck your screen with the wide neck shirt and the creepy wristband shirt and the creepy wristband thing. thing. the other guy on the left side the other guy on the left side of the screen standing up is of the screen another freedom party official. in this video he functions as the sort of translator here because he speaks sort of elementary-school-level russian. and the blond lady who you see there whose face is pixelated, she's the niece of a russian oligarch who would like to support the freedom party. she's visiting from russia with a whole bunch of money to spend to help them out.

and in this video which stretches for seven hours, the vice chancellor of austria, the head of the freedom party, this guy from this group founded by ex-nazis who they elevated to the number two person of that government, he chats with this young woman about what he wants from her uncle. what he wants from a kremlin-connected russian oligarch to support his party and to support his political aspirations. he tells this woman that this he tells this woman that this russian oligarch should use russian oligarch should use russian money to take control of russian money to take control of the biggest tabloid newspaper in the biggest tabloid newspaper in austria, turn it into a austria, turn it into a mouthpiece for the freedom mouthpiece party, help them get elected. once they get control of the government, the russian oligarch should then form a construction party then this guy who will be then running the government will make sure all the road building contracts, infrastructure contracts in austria would go to the new construction company secretly set up for that purpose and run by the russian oligarch who spent all that money to get the ex-nazi party in charge. so you pay for us to get in power. we will pay you. we will pay you. you infiltrate our country and you infiltrate our country and our press on behalf of russia. our press on behalf of russia.

you install a kremlin-friendly you install a kremlin-friendly far-right political party in austria. far-right political party in austria. and once we're in there, we'll and once we' pay you back with cash, with public contracts. win/win/win. it's all spelled out. it's all spelled out. the video was published on the video friday. the vice chancellor of austria, the vice chancellor of austria, the guy with the wide neck the guy with the wide neck t-shirt and creepy wristband, he t-shirt and creepy wristband, he resigned the next day, on resigned the next day, on saturday. saturday. number two official in the number two official in the government. government. two days later on monday, the two days later on monday, the interior interior minister, also a freedom party guy, he was fired by the chancellor after he expressed not that much interest in pursuing this as a potentially criminal matter. in response, all of the other freedom party ministers said they would quit, too, and yesterday they all did. that's half the ministers in the government including the defense minister and the labor minister and the foreign minister who invited putin to her wedding. and so the austrian government just collapsed. they have to call snap elections. nobody knows what's going to nobody knows what's going to happen. happen.

but it's happened literally on but it's happened literally on the eve of the european the eve of the european elections, and now we're about elections, to find out how well that freedom party, that exact same party, is going to do in the european parliamentary elections when austrians get their turn to vote in those elections on sunday. they've been favored to do very well. they've been favored to do very well. how will they do now that all how will they do now that all their ministers have left the their ministers have left the government and the government government and the government has collapsed has collapsed over them being exposed trying to sell out their government to russian oligarchs? i mean, sometimes exposing russian influence over a political campaign leads to the collapse of, like, the whole government. it's amazing, right? it's amazin it can happen. but this -- this dynamic is at large now, right? it's not just one country. in addition to that cooperation agreement that putin's political party signed with the freedom party in austria, putin's political party did the exact same kind of agreement with the right-wing ascendant political party in italy which is called the league.

the league is poised to win tons of seats in the european elections this weekend. the russian government has also been propping up marine le pen and the far-right racist national front party in france, which is also poised to win tons of seats this weekend. there are open questions under investigation in britain as to possible russian support for the funders of brexit and for the ongoing brexit uprising in the uk. i i mean, all of these far-right anti-immigrant, anti-europe groups are poised to do very well in these elections that started today and that are going to go over the next four days. in italy, in france, in austria, in germany and hungary and the uk. and all and all of them are supported by russia in one way or another for all or most of them, the feeling is also mutual. they also support russia. here's a picture of the head of the league party in italy sitting in the european parliament wearing a vladimir putin t-shirt. the creepy american factor in all of this is that all of these far-right anti-immigrant, anti-europe parties that are poised to destroy the european

union from within, they are not only supported by russia and supportive of russia, they are also being buoyed and to a greater or lesser extent all being advised by steve bannon, who moved his operation to europe after what he did here for us in 2016. so sometimes i think it helps us as americans understand our own situation to take a broader lens on this stuff, right? i mean, we're still muddling our way through our own situation every day. i'm going to talk with the chairman of the judiciary committee in just a minute about the latest fights to try to pry loose information and documents of witnesses from this administration. we are still muddling through we are still muddling through it. it. but europe is hitting this like but europe is hitting this like wall this weekend, and this is a wall this weekend, and this is a global thing that we are in. global thing it's not just us. and in some places, yes, these dynamics lead to whole governments collapsing suddenly and in shame and disgrace. and in other cases that doesn't happen.

in other cases it results in in other cases it results in previously unimaginably shameful previously unimaginably shameful fringe figures not only making fringe figur it into power but clinging to it. we've got a lot to get to we've got a lot to get to tonight and there's a lot going tonight and there's a lot going on but, on but, man, this is no time to check out. your country needs you. stay with us. us with moderate to severe ulceratiyour plans... crohn's, can change in minutes. your head wants to do one thing... but your gut says not today. if your current treatment isn't working...

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a little bit of breaking a little bit of breaking news tonight from the white news tonight from the white house that honestly i'm not sure house that honestly i understand totally. it's just sort of happening now. it's a brand-new white house statement that says, " today at the request and recommendation of the attorney general of the united states, president donald j. trump directed the intelligence community to quickly and fully cooperate with the attorney general's investigation into the surveillance activities during the 2016 presidential election. the attorney general has also been delegated full and complete authority to declassify information pertaining to this investigation, in accordance with the long-established standards for handling classified information. today's action will help ensure that all americans learn the truth about the events that occurred and the actions that were taken during the last presidential election and will restore confidence in our public

institutions." again, that statement tonight from the white house. again, that statement tonight from the white house. the white house then released the white house then released this mem this memorandum which is titled "memorandum on agency cooperation with the attorney general's review of intelligence activities related to the 2016 presidential campaigns." campaigns, plural. the memo outlines the attorney general's authority to declassify information and intelligence, was sent to the departments of state, treasury, defense, energy, homeland security along with the director of national intelligence and the head of the cia. we are still running down the implications of this. we know that the attorney general, william barr, had said that he wanted to pursue some kind of investigation into the origins of the russia investigation. we had had reporting that that we had had reporting that that involved the u.s. attorney in involved t the state of connecticut and maybe also the director of national intelligence and maybe also the cia director gina haspel. attorney general barr was said attorney gen to be personally involved in

whatever this inquiry was. this is on top of the inspector general also pursuing an inquiry along these same lines. this memo tonight, we don't exactly know what it means, but it makes it seem like they're somehow trying to clear a path for whatever it is that barr is doing. it's not totally clear what this it's not tot means yet. i want to tell you, we did get one really interesting response to this news just a moment ago from someone who was there for the early stages of the russia investigation and also for the clinton email probe. when this memo was released tonight, we contacted david laufman, who was chief of counterintelligence at the justice department under president obama, who served at the beginning of the trump administration as well. he was there as the chief of counterintelligence at the justice department when the russia investigation was opened. david laufman tells us tonight that this new decision by the president is, "a grotesque abuse of the intelligence community to further his goal of political

retribution, made worse by the spectacle of the justice department as his handmaiden." so, again, i think that's the first response we've had from a senior justice department official, former justice department official, who was involved in the origins of this inquiry tonight. but again, david laufman calling this a grotesque abuse of the intelligence community. the chairman of the house judiciary committee chairman jerry nadler joins us next. stay with us. dler joins us next stay with us pursuing life-changing cures in a country that fosters innovation here, they find breakthroughs... like a way to fight cancer by arming a patient's own t-cells... because it's not just about the next breakthrough... it's all the ones after that.

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joining us now here on set

joining us now here on set is congressman jerry nadler. is congressman jerry nadler. hes is the chairman of the house hes is the chairman of the house judiciary committee, which makes judiciary committee, which makes him one of the b him one of the busiest human beings in washington today and the man with a lot on his plate. sir, thank you for making time for us, it's nice to see you. >> pleasure being here. >> i want to get your top line reaction to this news that we just got. the president is directing the intelligence community to cooperate with attorney general barr's investigation into surveillance activities during the 2016 presidential election. he's also delegating to the attorney general full and complete authority to declassify information pertaining to this investigation. do you have any idea what this do you have any idea what this is about? is about? >> yeah. >> yeah. it's part of the trump and it's part of the trump and republican plot to dirty up the republican plot to dirty up the intelligence community, to intelligence community, to pretend that there's something pretend that there's something wrong with the beginning of the wrong with the beginning of the mueller investigation and to mueller investigation and to persecute and bring into l persecute and bring into line the intelligence agencies. the intelligence agencies. this is the third investigation. this is the third investigation. remember, the inspector general remember, the inspector general of the department of justice of the department of justice launched an investigation of launched an investigation of

strzok and page and all these strzok and page and all these people and concluded their people and concluded their political opinions did not political opinions did not interfere with their decisions interfere with their decisions in the probe and there was in the probe and there was nothing wrong with being in the nothing wr probe. the attorney general, the prior the attorney general, the prior attorney general asked the u.s. attorney general asked the u.s. attorney in utah, herd i think attorney in utah, herd i think his name is. his name is. something like that. something like that. >> huber. >> huber. >> huber, to do a second >> huber, t investigation. we're waiting for the result of we're wai that. we don't need a third we don't need a third investigation of the same investigation of the same material just designed to material just designed to further the propaganda against further the propaganda against the mueller investigation and the mueller investigation and against an apolitical and against an apolitical and properly functioning fbi and properly functioning fbi and intelligence community. intelligence community. >> to that point, i feel like we >> to that point, i feel like we knew that -- we knew that knew that -- we knew that attorney general barr was atto pursuing something along these lines because he talked about it in testimony before the senate. what's new tonight is this directive, this formal-looking directive in which he says that the intelligence community is essentially ordered to cooperate fully.

that's the part i don't really that's the part i don't really understand. understand. >> i don't know what that means. >> i don't know what that means. it may just be public relations, it may just be public relations, i don't know. >> yeah, that's what i was >> i don't know. the fact of the wondering. >> i don't know. the fact of the matter this is all nonsense. there is no basis whatsoever to believe that anybody in the intelligence community did anything wrong in terms of starting the investigation or the hillary email investigation. what they're really trying to do is to divert attention from the mueller report and from the president's actions against the rule of law to an imaginary scandal. >> it's been just over 60 days >> it's been just over 60 days since mueller's investigation since mueller's investigation was ended and since he submitted was ended and since he submitted his report. his report. we have we have seen hide nor hair of robert mueller in that time. i don't know where he is. i hope he's well. you have talked repeatedly about hoping to get him in to testify about his own findings. today, in fact, is one of the days you put on the calendar as a sort of hopeful day that he

might come in. what's going on? what's wrong with -- what's wrong with our expectations? we had thought that it would be a big deal to get him in there. >> we think it would be. we want him to come in and he want testify. he want others to come in and there are testify. there are a lot of people who should come in and testify who the administration is saying they will not permit to testify. their blanket stonewalling of congress and the american people. the president was foolish enough the president to admit that he was engaged in stonewalling including mcgahn and a lot of other people. mueller, he -- i think i can say at this point, that he wants to testify in private. >> why? >> i don't know why. he wants -- he's willing to make an opening statement but he wants to testify in private. we're saying he ought to -- we think it's important for the american people to hear from him and to hear his answers to questions about the report. >> does he want to testify in private and have it be a closed session where we, the people, would not even get to see a transcript of it? >> no, no, no. we'd see a transcript. we'd see a transcript.

>> do you have any sense of -- i mean, why would witnesses usually say anything like that or do you have any indication of why he might want that? >> he envisions himself correctly as a man of great rectitude and apolitical and he doesn't want to participate in anything that he might regard as a political spectacle, especially if republicans on the committee start asking him questions about the beginning of the -- about this stuff, the beginning of the investigation. i'm speculating really. >> yeah. >> but he doesn't want to be public in what some people would regard as a political spectacle, i think. >> it's hard for me -- i can see if he was advocating for a closed session in which the public would never know. i mean, we can read it, we can act it out. we still have access to what's said. it's it's >> >> transcripts. but there's still a difference, obviously. >> transcripts. but there's still a difference,

obviously. >> yeah. let me ask if there's any discussion about whether or not his team, prosecutors and agents involved in this investigation, should also be testifying? the reason i ask is not just because i'm interested to hear what they have to say, it's because among others the attorney general and the president and republicans in congress have singled out individual people on mueller's team as being particularly bad actors or being the people who might explain mueller's supposed complaints to barr about how barr handled the investigation. they've already been targeted. they've had words put in their should mouths. should we not hear from >> i think we probably will. >> i think we probably will. i think we'll probably hear from i think we'll probably hear from them and a lot of other people. our intention on the judiciary committee is to have this open to the american people, to have everybody relevant testify, so people understand what was in the mueller report, what wasn't in the mueller report p. to understand what was going on. we can ask questions about other things, about the president's derelictions of duty or about his defenses of his dereliction of duty, about all of these people things. people have to understand it. now, the administration decided to use quite indefensible legal

doctrines to stonewall congress, stonewall the american people and say nobody can testify and nobody can bring documents. we're going to beat them in court because that's ridiculous from a legal point of view, but they are going try to waste a lot of time. but we will have witnesses, those who will come in voluntarily, those who will be subpoenaed, and we will enforce the subpoenas. and we will have, i'm sure, other witnesses, too, like some of those 900 federal prosecutors who said that based on the evidence in the mueller report they would have indicted if it weren't for the opinion that a president can never be indicted no matter what the evidence. we will have hearings on other derelictions of duty. for instance, the president's intimidation of witnesses, his dangling of pardons, his intimidating witnesses, his failure -- it's the duty of the justice department, the duty of the justice department to defend

the constitutionality in court ofny any law duly passed by congress unless they can say it's so off the wall that there's no legal argument that can be made. so why did the justice department switch to opposing the affordable care act and opposing it and asking the court to declare obamacare unconstitutional and deprive 20 million people of pre-existing condition coverage and of other things? these are questions that i think -- these are questions that i think -- what about the decisions that led to tearing kids away from what about the decisions that led to tearing kids away from their parents at the border? their parents at the border? all of these are abuses of power all of these that we're going to investigate. >> and these sorts of hearings, this type of aggressive hearing schedule that you're describing, when does it start? >> well, it starts as soon as we get witnesses. >> they're never going to let you get witnesses if they have anything to say about it. >> that's right. you saw in court this week two key cases, and i anticipate we'll win the other cases. because the arguments of presidential privilege and

absolute immunity are pure nonsense. there's no precedent for it. there's no precedent for it. so we will win those cases and so we will we'll get them. some of it will take time because they'll try to appeal it. but but meanwhile, we have that -- and meanwhile, we're doing a whole legislative program separate from the investigations. we just passed this week dreamer we just passed this week dreamer legislation to protect the legislation dreamers. that will go to the house floor that will go to the house floor june 4th. june 4th. we passed out of our committee we passed out of our committee legislation from an antitrust legislation fr perspective that should cut the cost of prescription drugs about $40 billion over 10 years. we've passed legislation on the equality act, major act to say that the civil rights act of 1964, fair housing act and a few others includes lgbt people. we passed major gun control we passed legislation, universal background checks. these aren't get the publicity they deserve because everything is subsumed under the president's scandals. but we're showing that congress can walk and chew gum at the same time and that we can carry a full legislative agenda to do what we promised the american

people during the campaign at the same time that we're holding the president accountable to vindicate the rule of law and to make sure that we keep a democratic government. with a small "d." >> chairman jerry nadler of the judiciary committee. i have one more matter i want o ask you about before you go if you can stick with us. >> sure. >> we'll be right back with the chairman right after this.

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maybe this is the time to open maybe this is the time to open an impeachment inquiry i an impeachment inquiry into president trump for the behavior president tr described in the mueller report and other things. was that reporting accurate? and does that mean that you have evolved in your thinking on this? >> well, i'm constantly evolving >> well, i'm constantly evolving on my thinking on this and on my thinking on this and frankly going back and forth too frankly going back and forth too because it's a very tight because it's a very tight question. question. yeah, i urged the speaker to yeah, i urged the speaker to speed things up and to consider speed things u an impeachment inquiry. part of the rationale for that, which was that if you're in court seeking to enforce subpoenas, you have a better odds in court if you can say this is part of your impeachment inquiry rather than just part of your general oversight. that rationale is weaker since monday when the two court decisions -- >> meaning the courts are going your way, anyway. >> right. or they seem to be. so that's weaker. but the fact of the matter is we have to pursue what's really important is that we pursue the

investigations. we we pursue the contempt we citations. we pursue the subpoenas. we lay it all out to the american people. we lay the case out to the american peel. impeachment, and see where we go from there, whether we call an impeachment inquiry of not is of secondary importance compared to actually doing what we have to >> is do. >> is it clear to you there really isn't much legal advantage to calling something an impeachment inquiry as opp e opposed to not having that open? i heard arguments on both sides. >> it's speculative. >> yeah. >> you're arguing to a court. that the court must intervene between two coordinated brampb s branches of government branches of govern it's reluctant to do, order one branch to do what we wanted to do. arguing we have no arguing we have no got to got to do that because there's no other alternative. certainly, if we're doing it in pursuit of our itch peoplement constitutional right, it's a somewhat stronger argument, at least theoretically, than if you're doing but but how much of a difference

that makes we don't really know. >> the cost of opening an inquiry, though, somewhat everybody speculative. everybody thinks there will be a political benefit to the president of you opening an impeachment inquiry. to t that to me seems also like >> i don't know. speculation. >> i don't know. i think i think lawrence o'donnell pointed this out six or seven weeks ago. if we were to call, hold an impeachment inquiry in the hearings, in the judiciary committee, how would they differ from what we were going to be doing if we don't call an impeachment inquiry? the answer is they wouldn't. >> except they'd be under the headline, impeachment inquiry in the house, which tends to land with a punch. >> yes. >> congressman jerry nadler, chairman of the house judiciary keep committee. keep us apprised. you're in the middle of a lot right now. i appreciate you taking the aim too be here. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back. stay with us. ll be right back stay with us a product of mastery. lease the 2019 es 350 for $379 a month for 36 months.

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there's a lot of moving pieces tonight. there's a lot of moving pieces tonight. joining us to help sort out some joining us of what we learned over the course of this hour is the great barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney from the great state of michigan. barb, thank you barb, thank you so much for being here. i really reesappreciate it. >> thanks, rachel, glad to be here. >> we just got news from >> we just chairman jerry nadler of the judiciary committee. he just told us and i think this is the first time this has been bluntly articulated anywhere in terms of negotiations with robert mueller to testify in congress about his investigation and his report and his findings, that robert mueller wants to testify in private, not in a closed session where we would

never ultimately even see the tran transcript of it but transcript of it but a closed-door session closed-door session that was transcribed and ultimately the transcription would be released to us even though we couldn't see it on tv. what do you make of that? >> well, for curiosity seekers like me it's disappointing. because i'd rather see him testify live. i think it's probably more compelling for the public to see live testimony, but, you know, just based on pure speculation, might think robert mueller is one to sort of shun the spotlight. we've seen the hearings turn we've seen the hearings turn into sort into sort of political he may theatrics. he may want to avoid that sort of posturing by the members of congress as they ask the questions and just stick to the so it facts. so it is sort of keeping with his m.o. of just the facts. >> in terms of how the judiciary committee is going to proceed here, obviously, it's a very interesting prospect in terms of mueller as chairman nadler described it, he said mueller wants to avoid essentially being politicized, being on tverer

suss being on a transcript. it's hard -- i don't know. we'll see how this works out. there's also the broader structural question as to whether or not the judiciary committee can get further down the road of compelling witnesses or compelling documents. if they open up an impeachment inquiry. the chairman the chairman tonight suggested that to him as a legal matter, that's not at all clear. it's an absolutely open question. do you feel like that is an do you feel like that is an unclear part of the law that we unclear part of the law that we don't know whether that would don't know help them? >> i don't know that it does. i think they can get almost everything they want and i think we saw that demonstrated this week with the court orders. this judge mehta who ordered if congress has the power to legislation, or the power for oversight, they have the power to investigatie. so i think chairman nadler is correct. whether they call it an whether the impeachment hearing or not, if they want to continue to investigate i think they can do so and the subpoenas will have teeth. >> the president tonight made a >> the president tonight made a statement from the white house statement from the white house or a statement was issued by the or a statement was issued by the white house press office, and white house press office, and they released a memorandum in they released a memorandum in

which the intelligence community which the intelligence community is directed to quickly and fully is directed to quickly and fully cooperate with the attorney cooperate with the attorney general's investigation into general's investigation into surveillance activities during surveillance activities during the 2016 presidential election. the 2016 presidential election. the attorney general also the attorney general also delegated full and complete delegated full and complete authority to declassify authority to declassify information pertaining to this information pertaining to this investigation. investigation. we assume this is whatever we assume this is whatever william barr was talking about william b when he testified before the senate recently. and said that he's looking into the origins of mueller's inquiry. i don't know what this new i don't know what this new directive from the white house directive from the white house is meant to signal tonight or if is meant to signal tonight or if this is a substantive thing. this is a substantive thing. how do how do you see this? >> i think it's actually very you significant. you know, the idea that they should cooperate with each other, i have no problem with. but the idea of giving william barr the power to declassify all of the material within the intelligence community is really unprecedented. ordinarily each intelligence agency controls its own information because they are best able to assess whether it would compromise a source or method to disclose particular information with the director of national intelligence over all

of it. instead president trump has given all of that power to william barr. when i was practicing and handling cases, there were times when i wanted to bring a case, but i was prevented from doing so because someone in the intelligence community made a decision that it would irreparably harm some source or method and that equity was worth more than my little case. and i, you know, accepted they were acting in good faith when they made that decision. if william barr who i think now has given at least the appearance that he is acting in the best interests of president trump as opposed to the best interests of our national security, has that power, i worry that it gives him the power to create a whole lot of mischief within the intelligence community and with the outcome of his investigation. >> it may also suggest that in this young investigation that he has starteds that he's certainly personally involved in the intelligence community has already been telling him no. he went to the white house to get authority in order to overrule those nos. i don't -- i agree with you, this is worrying but it's not

like anything we've seen before. so i'm not quite sure what we know -- that we know what it means yet. barb, thank you for helping us understand this breaking news tonight as it happens. i really appreciate you being >> we will see you again tomorrow. now this is the time for the last word with the aforementioned lawrence o'donnell who was quoted by the chairman of the judiciary committee right here just moments ago. >> i heard that. >> yes. >> good evening, rachel. speak of breaking news, let's get to the much more important thing than the minor reference you made to me where he's telling us that robert mueller does not want to testify publicly on tv with everyone watching. he's willing to testify very old school with no cameras as if it's a supreme court hearing with fript to be released later. >> because he is worried about