>> so i'm going to be very calm. i don't want them going out to the press and saying i was anything but calm. much like i am right now. it was very sad when i watched nancy, all the moving of the hands and the craziness. that's a person that has problems. >> i pray for the president of the united states. >> good morning and welcome to "am joy." one of the two people you just heard, the president of the united states and the speaker of the house is said to be unstable. >> calling himself an extremely stable genius. then he made his aids perform

the humiliating ritual of one by one voujing for him and his apparent calmness. >> you were very calm. >> very calm. >> i've seen both and this was not angry or ranting. >> trump also spent this week accusing former fbi officials of treason for investigating russia's intervention to help get him elected. people in mind, people convicted of treason could face execution. >> sir, the constitution says treason is punishable by death. who specifically are you accusing of treason. >> a number of people if you look at comey, mccabe and people

higher than that. >> this is not normal in a democracy. then house speaker nancy pelosi on that same day simply and calmly suggested trump is harming the country with his ee rattic behavior that she said might require a trump family intervention. blowing up over an infrastructure bill let's say he had no plan for and trump retaliating and retweeting doctored videos implying that the most powerful woman in the country is either drinking and by the way, she does not drink alcohol, or losing it because of her age, which by the way is only seven years older than trump is. there are things trump is doing

during his current spasm that are even worse and actually dangerous. on the same day he launched his attacks on the speaker, he handed his fixer, attorney general william barr new power. directing foreign intelligence agencies granting barr the authority to declass anything he wants putting the identities of intelligence sources at risk for being exposed including the kremlin source that tipped off the obama administration. that's where we are. the president flailing and lashing out at the house. demanding that his attorney general investigate his perceived enemies and giving him the power to do it.

just another week in trump's america where congress is still being treated as a trivial inconvenience and subpoenas are still being ignored. and yet, the democratic leadership seems weirdly calm. speaker pelosi insists the house is not headed towards impeachment. the questions remain. if what trump is doing is not impeachable? is anything impeachable? and will the democratic fight include impeachment proceedings at some point? we are going to be discussing impeachment. the pros the cons and what it entails. first, let's explore what would happen if congress did bite the bullet and impeach donald trump. joining me now, professor.

thank you for being here. you are just the right person to talk about on this issue. what is the difference between impeachment and an impeachment inquiry, which you are starting to see members of the congress say that is what they prefer? >> the difference is very fundamental. an impeachment inquiry, which i also am very much in favor of is a systematic investigation into whether or not the president has abused his power in a way that triggers the impeachment clause. whether or not he has committed

treason, high crime. and it involves looking at the law. that's an inquiry. an impeachment itself is something quite different. it is voting on articles of impeachment like an indictment which is then handed over to the senate. >> so we know there has been two presidents that have been impeached. andrew johnson in may of 1868. he winds up being acquitted by a single vote in the senate. he was impeached because he violated a law. he ignored a law and fired the secretary of war and was also trying to under moomine the civ war. >> president clinton was impeached because of a sexual situation. and nixon would have been

impeached but he stepped down first. if a president is acquitted, are they still an impeached president? >> they are. and it goes down in history as a terrible shame. when you have a shameless president, he might not care. we owe it to our nation to ask ourselves the question if these things are not impeachable, what would be? the answer is nothing. it is very important for the house of representatives to exercise its sole power of impeachment and not let the senate veto that power. it is a basic constitutional responsibility. >> a lot of people agree with that and democrats are worried about it. what democrats have said who do not favor impeachment is that

they are already preceding a pace with investigations and they should just continue doing that because those are happening. the chairman of one of those committees, the chairman of the house judiciary committee was on with my colleague on thursday. one of the things people have said is before we get to impeachment, the american public should hear from robert mueller. that should happen first. here is what chairman nadler said about whether mueller is willing to be a part of that process. >> mueller, i think i can say at this point, he wants to testify in private. >> why? >> i don't know why. he's willing to make an opening statement. we are saying we think it is important for the american people to hear from him. >> so you have people like robert mueller and don mcgahn,

donald trump jr. who are having these negotiations in which they are reluctant or like mcgahn refusing to appear because the white house doesn't want them do. if an impeachment were to be empanelled would that be clear? >> in short answer, yes. in the two opinions in the last week, you could force subpoenas to get facts from deutsche bank or trumps accountants on the theory they might be relevant to a lot of legislation. when it comes to hearing from mcgahn, hope hicks, mueller, it is much harder to make the case that you need that stuff.

the real reason you need it is to figure out for sure whether the president has or has not committed impeachable offenses. in addition under rule 6 e of the federal rules of procedure, there is an exception to secracy. and that would be a judicial preceding. for a bunch of reasons, though i under and respect nancy pelosi's political calculation. it really does matter if you call a spade a spade and make it clear the inquiries that are going on now in the oversight committees looking at the possibility of actually impeaching the president. they are an impeachment inquiry.

they don't have to happen only in the judiciary committee. after all, the watergate hearings were in the senate, which did not have the power of impeachments. >> all of these different investigations could be folded into an impeachment inquiry. if you impeach, then all the other investigations stop. you are saying all of those just continue and will be folded in? >> absolutely. people like schiff, nadler, waters and represent cummings, they know how to walk and chew gum at the same time. they can share the gum and floss as well. it seems to me we really ought to put these together and understand the desire to know

exactly what happened. the president seems to me is committing impeachable offenses before our very eyes every day. when he threatens the national security by giving the power to declassify to his fixer as you rightly called bill barr, it seems to me he is weaponizing his power to declassify as a way of going after his political enemies. he is perverting the presidency. it seems we ought to admit that that is what is going on and figure out whether it is technically impeachable, which i think it almost certainly is, and figure out what the facts are. the supreme court has often held that among the most important purposes of congressional investigations is not only law making but holding the executive

branch accountable and informing the american public. an uninformed public is in great danger. when nancy pelosi talks about a public intervention. the most important is not a little chat between ivanka and daddy but the inquiry beginning as soon as possible in the house of representatives. >> i hear this a lot from democrats. if the senate, despite hearing everything you've just laid out. in the unredacted mueller report. if they still refuse to convict on political grounds, would that then allow donald trump to claim he has been vindicated after being acquitted? >> he claims he's been vindicated by the mueller report just because his fixer bill barr

says it. nothing will stop him from claiming he's been vindicated but that doesn't mean we have to believe him. when all the evidence has been laid out in front of him in live testimony, everyone will not if the senate acquits him, it is simply simply abdication. >> thank you very much, sir. >> thank you, joy. >> we have discussed the mechanics and consequences of impeachment. now we want to ask the following question. what would be the consequences of not impeaching. slates our super smart guest to discuss this right after the break. go get some coffee.

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>> nobody is above the law and this is a giant cover up on every level. >> we believe no one is above the law including the president of the united states. we believe the president of the united states is engaged in a

coverup. >> here we are, the congresswoman and nancy pelosi are saying the same thing but coming to a different conclusion regarding impeachment. we started off talking about what would happen if the president is impeached but what if he isn't? laying out the consequences, quote, by attaching no real consequence, they, the democrats, are essentially telling the country that steve mnuchin should keep defying a house subpoena. in ceding that power to a president who believes he is all power is doing so. >> your piece, i've been obsessing over. thank you for coming over on your weekend. you write about the democrats that they are sort of like people stairing into a painting

that just needs one more dot and that's going to make me see it. what p have you learned as a learned helplessness against donald trump. >> i've asked the question. what bit of information would stipul stipulate, that would then make you act. the mueller report is the most eloquent statement of obstruction. so we are done. we know what the painting says. the idea that we are going to get one more yellow dot there and then be ready to move, it

makes no sense. it is caddy womas. >> he believes he'll derive political benefit from it. keep in mind, clinton was done with his second term but they think it will help him politically, there for he is trying to trick them into it. >> it is a lose/lose. they are trying to goad us into impeachment and so we won't do anything or we just won't do anything. they are so obsessed with the optics. what they are doing is creating this long narrative instead of

saying, look, the framers couldn contemplated this. the idea that both sides are now saying, well, he did crimes but oh, well is an amazing con cl s confluence of agendas there. >> president trump will not be the last president. what will the next president learn? the attorney general is no longer another attorney general. he's another. now the attorney general who can classify anybody. throw the person from the kremlin, he can expose them, he can lock up hillary clinton.

they could lock up the former fbi director. that's how far we've gone. will that be normalized? >> of course. this is parenting 101. you create a boundary and then there are consequences. when nancy pelosi says or nadler says, this is a constitutional crisis and look, squirrel. if you are saying time and time again, he is violating a law. the most important thing you are saying there is he is breaking national confidence in the fbi, cia. that doesn't bounce back unless there is a concerted effort to bolster institutions to say there are consequences to say

hunt down my enemy. that doesn't fix itself. you are exactly right. to say this is a catastrophe or crisis. those are not real consequences. >> one thing that is strange. the argument they are making. nancy pelosi saying he needs an intervention. he needs to be baker acted, the president. if that is all true, why would democrats say the answer is to try to give him an infrastructure win. he had no infrastructure plan and then beat him in an election. >> this goes to the heart of it. i think democrats are trying to

win on two fronts. they are trying to delegitimize the president and reintroduce these kitchen table issues. we know you showed up in 2018 because of health care and the disparity between rich and poor. there is this crazy person punching away at them. they have this notion they can hold him by the forehead or just talk about self-impeachment. this is going to be a voting issue in 2020 and the people responsible about educating the electorate are the people saying, we don't know what to do. >> if donald trump is not impeached but also not reelected, will that be sufficient sanction to prevent the next donald trump from attempting to push the

boundaries even further on likes like these? >> for me, the thing that keeps me up is these erosions of institutions that we've said are not going to snap back. the thing about power is you lose it if you don't use it. we are learning, there is no boundary beyond which he will not seize power. you are saying, for the first time in history, you are going to take executive power. every time they step back, he steps forward. it is impossible to understand. every president will say, good, this is already the country where the executive has far too much power. we know that. we knew that under obama and bush. we are giving him more. >> particularly the executive power. they never give it back.

people complained obama used the drones. which president is giving back power to wage war all over the world? not even a democrat. bill barr is essentially a man arcist. >> we are in a perfect patty hurst cemetery. we don't understand why they are seizing so much power but i love them. it is really pathological. >> thank you for coming here. we are now good and scared. next up, did you hear that. democratic leaders insist impeaching donald trump would mean falling into his cleaver

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>> quick and porcht correction.

we played a clip. i had her on the brain and we miss identified the congresswoman. my apologies. up next, the theory president trump actually wants to be impeached. more am joy coming up. that karl brought his karaoke machine? ♪ ain't nothing but a heartache... ♪ no, i can't believe how easy it was to save hundreds of dollars on my car insurance with geico. ♪ i never wanna hear you say... ♪ no, kevin... no, kevin! believe it! geico could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance.

>> the house democratic congress

has not on a path to impeachment. that's where he wants us to be. when he saw that, he got upset. the white house is just crying out for impeachment. that's why he flipped the other day. >> claiming the president actually wants to be impeached to rile up his base and run on pure victim hood. maybe. you have to wonder why a man who wants to be impeached is too afraid to say the word. >> i heard they are having a meeting to talk about the i word. the i word. can you imagine.

>> welcoming my guests here. author of "it's even worse than you think." let me play you what lindsay graham. the new line is, yeah impeachment. that's what he wants. here is lindsay graham. here is not. okay. i'll read you what you said. he said this week, after two years of a political rectal examine, nobody is looked at more than trump but the democratic's is that trump has to go. if they try to impeach him, it will ensure reelection. then he goes. well said. high five. >> boom. >> to a lot of people that

sounds like trying to use a fight on the democrats. >> i don't think he ever sees more than three days down the road. >> he's not playing three dimensional chess. >> he's playing hopscotch. i think the key thing is when she accused him of a cover up. this gets into his own sense as legitimacy as a president. impeachment would dig into a whole new area. the president didn't get a full

kolonoscopy. the stuff we are starting to see come out now through the successful litigation, we are getting his accounting records, tax records. you are digging into his financial history. that's a bigger set of questions and gets into the issue of whether or not the president was kp compromised. he is not going to want a full scale, full blown examination of that stuff. when i would ask him difficult questions about his career or life. he says, if you get into any of this, i'll sue you. i said, why are you taking part in the book. he said i don't care. >> donald trump's financial life

is really coming into greater focus. professor tribe said, impeachment inquiry would consolidate all of these investigations. his taxes, inflagt the value of his buildings, the actual col colonoscopy would play. >> you guys call him donald. another who knows him very well. >> i sat in a speech he gave once in 2013 about a dinner. he criticized a republican party. he criticized him saying why are they taking impeachment off the table on barack obama. do you think any president likes going in the history book. he will hate being impeached.

>> that sounds logical to me. who is right here? are the democrats right that president trump wants to be impeached or is sam right? is. >> i tend to agree more with sam on this. donald on the point, he doesn't think three days ahead. but he doesn't want an inquiry that shows him not to be what he sold himself to be. i think nancy is following the right track here. it would take 20 republicans changing their position is going to help trump and not hurt him. the task here is to layout a record of what a revulsive character beyond what even us who pay attention understand and cause republicans to realize

they cannot continue with him and supporting him. once you establish crimes, money laundering, i think you'll begin to see a crack on the dike on the senate side. mcconnell doesn't even have to allow a trial. to allow this to proceed without the certainty of conviction is to risk a real disaster. to not impeach him means he with not only walk away with the stain of impeachment. donald trump would then avoid that. he doesn't get a stain. if he doesn't convict, he would impeach. move on.org was founded in order to derail an impeachment.

the idea to sensor him and move on. so where do you fall on this idea that impeaching donald trump but not convicting him would somehow help him and he wants that. >> going back to bill clinton, it was a totally different scenario. we are not in business as usual. this is not normal what we are seeing. we are talking about a president who had an affair and lied about it. we are talking about a president who abuses his power everyday. one more thing, he is an unindicted co-conspirator for a crime that has nothing to do with the mueller probe. democrats are giving subpoenas, the courts are stepping in. it is not up to the courts. it is up to the congress, their

duty to hold this president accountable. they are missing out on what they should be doing as congress. we have to remember the reason why the house, the democrats got the house because voters wanted the president to be held in account. they wanted checks and balance. donald trump is not a brilliant mind. he's not walking around wanting to be impeached. he did it himself. he's not a smart man. he is desperate right now. he does not want this impeachment stain. he doesn't. >> very quick lightening round. >> donald trump an impeached president going into reelection, is he stronger or weaker? >> i think weigher?

>> if republicans have not left donald trump now with caged children, bill barr investigate his political enemies, why should anyone believe a single one would ever convict him or turn on him? >> only if things come out through hearings that make it clear the man is an active criminal. i think at some point republicans have to break away and stop being powers. >> do you believe a single republican will break away? >> no. i think the republicans are stuck with him. they are going to be list lap dogs like his core base. he doesn't need to keep them. they are not going anywhere. >> we'll have a fourth person weigh in on that. thank you all very much. up next, history rhymes again. keep it here. at carvana, no matter what car you buy from us,

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>> unfinished business further designation of house 611. a resolution impeaching william

clinton, the president of the united states for high crimes and misdemeanors. >> andrew johnson who su seeded reverse the results of the vifl war. also bill clinton, neither man was convicted and richard nixon face faced charges, but he resigned. joining me now is michael beschloss, the author of "presidents of war." we have been talking about the consequences of impeachment and not.

you're so good at the analogies in history. the andrew johnson impeachment feels more like this. he violated a law, boom, impeachment. applicant felt more nakedly political. we're going to send a message about him. can we learn from either of them? >> i think andrew johnson was almost of the preface of what we're seeing right now. he was in a state of complete confrontation. he was trying to relax controls on the south, the radical republicans that were in control with congress, they wanted to use military force to make sure that the south respected the rights of african-americans and changed their ways from what it happened. so he basically deliberately

defined thom. defied them by saying i don't ca care. i'm going to fire my secretary of war. they went to impeach him. they say he escaped a trial by one vote. that was 1868. that was an election year he could not be nominated for another term as president. >> does the impeachment sanction withstand acquittal. if you're acquitted are you still impeached and what does that do in terms of the way they historians view a president? >> it really depends on the case. in the richard nixon case as you said he never even made it to a house vote on impeachment before after nixon quit to avoid impeachment and conviction, he thought the house voted and said if there had been a vote we

would have voted to impeach. >> so for trump, the question that democrats are asking is that losing an election, is that an equivalent sanction. is becoming a one-term president, from a lis torian's point of view, equal to impeachment? >> in a way it is. people have said that you were defeated because of the reasons that you were impeached for. so that is one thing to think about. i think the larger think to think about and this has been a really excellent show all of the way through, joy, one of the things that has come through this as a pattern is that one thing impeachment does is there is a president who is going out of control and impeachment is a statement by congress even this cannot continue. in the same sense if donald

trump tries to expand power and congress doesn't say this is something we have to blow the whistle on, we have to restore the balance of power between the congress and the presidency, then we're really in tanger of -- danger of our presidency. we know now that richard mix son tried to manipulate intelligence. tried to push the boundaries. >> yeah, absolutely. >> is what donald trump is doing unusual? or is he pushing it even further? >> he is pushing in every direction. this is a guy trying to grab power in every respect he can. he has lawyers headed by the attorney general telling him here is a law where you have possibly some wiggle room, and earlier presidents abused the

fbi, for instance, or the cia. this is another way to grab some power. this is a guy who is doing everything had can to extend is own power. that will be the presidency we have in the future and it borders on dictatorship. >> and you wrote president's of war, what adds to that starting a war. >> one power that the president's sadly now have is the power to get us involved in possibly unnecessary wars almost on our own. the founders wanted that to all be in the hands of congress but the last time congress declared war was 1942. there was a big prospect that we could be at war with iran at some time and that came out of the present with very little input from congress. >> when you start to see power, it is seeded. >> that is true and you have to

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the president sen gauis eng a cover up.

i think that impeachment is a very divisive place to go in our country. we can get the facts to the american people through our investigation, it may take us to a place that is unavoidable in terms of impeachment or not, but we're not at that place. >> good morning and welcome to a.m. joy. in our last hour we discussed the ins and outs of impeachment. the legal implications, the history, and the potential consequences. now we will talk about the politics. the implications for 2020 and beyond. if democrats take the plunge, and senate republicans equip their leader, despite all evidence of wrong doing, would impeachment work in republicans favor? or would democrats be punished by their own base for seeing the danger of an increasingly authoritarian trump presidency unfolding right in front of their faces and doing nothing. let's get this debate started.

joining the table, maya wiley. republican media strategist rick wilson. thank you for all being here. before we jump into that political conversation, you want today make a point about what an impeachment inquiry would entail. >> what impeachment means is charges. impeachment itself does not result in the removal of a president which means the way our constitution is set up is the house decides whether or not to charge, but charging in and of itself, this is what your previous panel was constitutioniconstitutiovering s is what happened here. any democratic process requires that. >> nancy pelosi's argument is that the best outcome, for

politically for democrat social security to -- democrats is wha you said, is tell the american people what is happening through the hearings. >> the hearings under way are what i think is part of an impeachment process. they're part of a process to determine whether or not to charge. just as a practical matter, if you're having hearings and investigations in congress, you're moving toward a process to determine whether or not to actually charge and then have a conviction proceeding in the senate. politically just one quick point that i think is important here, when the mueller report came out most people believed that because william barr told us that mueller exonerated him on conspiracy, he did not. what he said is i don't have sufficient evidence to establish conspiracy. now the polling shows that most americans show they understand he was not exonerated. that's because there has been a

process. that is most important for the public to understand the facts. >> that is important to know and i want to get the whole panel in on this. the term both sides is my bug a boo. when i hear that phrase i melt a little bit. i will say that both sides of this argument, and you'll never hear me say that again, they have genuine belief in what they believe, right? i think both sides are trying to argue this in good faith. one of the big argues that speaker pelosi and the other leadership team are making is that certain exoneration in the senate, which we have to presume, i don't know why they believe they will overtime change their minds. they will stick to trump to the end, right? politically, would that then help them go out on the campaign trail and say no obstruction,

they didn't get me. >> let's think about what would happen if the house leadership moves forward with what they need to do, which is to impeach this president. a majority of the congress saying he will be impeached. he will have to go on the campaign trail and at every major vermont, every forum that he participates in, he will have to be regarded with and dealt with in question for impeached president trump. we have never had an impeached president seek reelection before. i think it is disastrous. you hear trump say over and over, don't throw be in that

br brier patch. what is wrong with being open with the american people. we were told over and over let's wait for the mueller report. it is available for every american to go read, he is took an accounting, he is said obstruction of justice happened, i wasn't planning on calling for impeachment, now it is here, it is clear. this idea to trying to interpret the motivations, there is a hidden plan, that's not what the intentions are, i think that is dangerous in a free society. particular lay society where the question of truth in and of itself open and direct engagement with the american people is what is needed here and the mueller report lays out clearly this president committed obstruction of justice. that is a high crime and misdemeanor that calls politically and legally for

impeachment. >> that is a solid argument. part of that argument is that even if republicans in the senate were to acquit, which we have to presume based on their abject loyalty that they would, right? that why wouldn't that become a political item that they could wield over republicans. one particular guy that loves trump now, didn't like him before, but lindsey graham, mitch mcconnell, they're both up for reelection. here is how they sounded on clinton impeachment, why couldn't they just role this tape and say you're a hypocrite and use that against them. >> the president endpaged in a per ssistent practice and patte of obstruction of justice. and ascertaining the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

unqualified, unevasive truth is critical. >> he encouraged people to lie, i think he obstructed justice. i think there is a compelling case that he has engaged in conduct that leads to him being better out of office than in office. >> lindsey graham is up for reelection. i'm counting north carolina, maine, colorado, georgia, arizona, that is one, two, three, four, five, six, seven potential targets that democrats would simply say if you're not going to convict this president, if you didn't do it, then that is a reason to vote against that particular senator, why wouldn't democrats use that even if donald trump was e kwacquitted.

>> all you need is a democrat leaning super pack to flood sho shoes states, having them go back to back, who are they talking about? bill clinton or donald trump? what changed. it would speak for itself. i was on this program a few weeks ago arguing that we're going to get to impeachment, but we should not push for it right n now. that was before subpoenas were ignored. before they did not give up the president's tax return after a legal request for them from the house committee. we're in a situation fwlou now impeachment is coming. the hearings that are happening now. that are driving democrats crazy, they're kind of already

happening. a story needs to be told and laid out, and by the time that story is told and laid out through these committee hearing and through the formal impeachment process, and the formal impeachment vote, fine, it goes to the senate and the president is acquitted by then the american people will have gotten a full story, have seen as much evidence as possible and it will cast the president in such a horrible and negative illegal criminal light that sure the president is more, you know, nor his power to run around the country and say aha they didn't get me, but we have been hearing that since he came into office. and the last point they will make on this is that they want impea impeachment proceedings right now because they want them to

fight. if he is convicted or acquitted in the senate, the proceedings, the hearing the right now should be seen by the democratic party faithful as the democratic party fighting. it will be the democratic party and democrats still fighting. it is a political process, but by the time we get to formal proceedings, it will be about protecting the united states from a president that does not revere in t in the way that his 44 prez ses sors have. >> this is an argument that i do hear a lot. others say it, too, we're going to keep doing these hearings. they're not exactly great at commanding the stage, right? particularly the media stage, but the question of whether or not ongoing hearings will somehow like be the thing that jump starts the republicans or

that suddenly concentrates the public's mind, impeachment hearings would be like an oj trial, they would be pushed on social media. this would be the thing that no one could look away from. they would be one focused media stage that the democrats would have if republicans had this opportunity. give us a sense of what they would be doing if they had the same scenario of a president ignoring them and going off of the rails. what would they do. >> oj got away with it. the trial was a big deal but oj got away with it. he wasn't put in jail until much later for different crimes. if i were doing this, i would be pursuing t pursuing the death of 1,000 cuts. we live in a 24 hour a day social media and cable media

environment now where this will become must see broadcasting where you ramp it up. i want dinner and dessert. i think he committed crimes that are impeachable. you build up this long run up to it, there is plenty of great television to come. getting his tax returns, the court wins of this weekend, they're setting up a predicate, setting a stage that will be a wig deal. you don't want to rush sex, cooking ribs, and impeachment. >> this is why you watch. >> you also need to know what he named his book. we're going to come back on the other side of the break. we have to pay for all of this. we have to go cereal

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let's roll! now that's simple, easy, awesome. xfinity xfi gives you the speed, coverage and control you need. manage your wifi network from anywhere when you download the xfi app today. let me say something about my democratic friends in the house. they have the right to impeach a

president. but they need to urinate or get off of the pot. >> with republicans taunting democrats, they have spent weeks agonizing over the question of impeachment, but what is the actual cost to them. >> first of all, the glove fits here. we have evidence of the glove fitting. >> there is no john ynie cochra. we need to dispel that at front end. so many members of congress are saying we already have sufficient evidence for charges of impeachment. politically the other thing we have to remember is that senators may not vote against their party, we don't know, but there was sufficient evidence to back republicans into a corner, but remember that if the house votes charges out, the senate

has to have signal will a trial where both sides call witnesses and it is witnesses. not watching, and that means the american pub lib essentially gets a full viewing to be able to make it's own decision and that is exactly what donald trump does not. it's not just the taint of an impeachment vote out of the house. it is a trial of a senate. it's not a criminal trial. all of the evidence of abuse of power and authority they can charge those things and e even a ma yourty of republicans are polling that we need to hear from mueller, from mcgahn. so the public interest from

hearing from the witnesses themselves is here. >> isn't that the real trial analogy. it destroyed him. he had a lot of tampering on the other side. but he was destroyed by it. donald trump -- even bill clinton saw his ratings go down. republicans for all of the talk of them benefits from it, they held on to the house and the senate and they rendered bill clinton unuse for for al gore. he declined to even campaign. >> look, again, i think there is an inveftble impeachment coming. every predicate here needs to be built up beforehand. you need friction in the system. you need to reduce the ability of the people to play the games that others are playing.

you need to hold them to account. corruption is the killer act. republicans lost 49 house seats and eight senate seats because the perception was they backed a corrupt president. and democrats were engaged -- they had been there for 52 years, engaged in basically corrupt enterprise. you need to not make it a one shot and you're done thing. but you to build up the case adequately. >> what would be, what are the risks to democrats of even if they were holding hearings, trying to get documents with the

public still hemming and hawing? . >> there are major risks to the democrats. the most important human being alive today on planet earth is whoever the democratic nominee is going to be in 2020. that individual, and we don't know who he or he is is yet, stands between donald trump for the next 20 years. and right now the cross current arguments that the democrats are putting out, the leadership saying no impeachment, you have several presidential candidates including senator elizabeth warn, beto o'rourke, they're saying no, impeachment is now. that is a mixed message. if i could push back a little on the brilliant and hysterical rick wilson. in june of 1972, the watergate

crime happened. then he left office when he was forced out. two years ago in may of 2015, we saw trump commit his high crime and misdemeanor in the eyes of the world. the mueller report was the standard. we now have the result of that. not some political prison im, but what constitutional duties are that are impeachment. that is not what he wants. >> stl leadership and there is what is seen to be leading, and it looks like what is overly

calm. they are looking about it and not really decided and fighting among themselves. is that damaging to the perception that they should be given more power if they seem so reluctant to use the power they have. >> who is saying they're reluctant to use the power? is it us sitting on television talking about how reluctant they are. i don't know about that, i think the democrats, particularly the house chairman and speaker pelosi are trying to operate at a 38,000 foot level, not being buffeted, and trying to keep their eyes on the long ball, on the long gene. trying to make sure they are doing things that are not reacting in the short time but setting themselves up for the long term and this is what maya

has been talking about since the beginning of this sellment. i'm squarely in camp maya here. the one thing, this is how i know that republicans are extremely worried about what is coming down the road. senator kennedy, that sound bite, when he comes on this network, or goes on other networks, he is the republican, i turn the sound up for because i want to hear what he has to say because even though he doesn't agree with democrats and he takes a strong line, he is always someone that seems relatively measured and accommodating and pends to the will of the reality. the pressure of all of tr is getting to him. for him to say urinate or get off of the pot, seriously?

>> coming from a republican strategist point of view, do republicans seem worried, number one, is there any chance that more than one or two republicans would ever flip on trump, and number three if they had the ability for instance to jail a democratic administration official who refused to come play with the law and handover the president's taxes, if they had an opportunity to drag someone in, i think thor exception is that we have all of these powers that we can use. >> i have concerns that they're soft peddling that a little too much because steve mnuchin is sounding off. they need to start applying the powers. they should have been in court

the millisecond after bill barr issued that four page memo. they should have filed it that night. they should have filed for an emergency injection that night. there was four major decisions this week that all went against the trump administration and they were moving that ball quickly right now, but there needs to be some sanction. if there is not a body count. if they were overtly contemptuous, but you put hope hicks in jail, or steve mnuchin in for not testifying and thing get lit real fast. >> we didn't get this in earlier, the other fear that people have politically for the democrats is if they are ultimately successful, and some democrats vote to convict, and you end up with president pence,

should democrats be thinking about that in their calculations? >> not at all, i think the stain of a removed president is on pence just as much. just a quick point, lawrence made such an incredibly important point about the precedent that it would set not to impeach. if we don't impeach the most deserving person in history, and they wrote the articles of impeachment for, who else do we impeach. it is also the laymens logic, joy. if they don't impeach me, it's because they don't think they have anything to impeach me for. for the average person on the street, that is the calculation they're going to make. the democrats have control of the congress and if they choose not to impeach him it is because they didn't think they had it. one last point, i said this before and i will say it again. our allies around the world are

watching. they are trying to make a judgment. is america still who they think it is. and the strongest message message is if there is opposition in the government saying yes, we're going to do our duty and impeach, we will send our message to the world. >> we're officially out of time. this is a really great two segment segment. thank you. coming up, congress is not crump's only problem, believe it or not, we'll explain after the break. explain after the break. this is anne marie peebles. her saturdays are a never- ending montage of comfort. [tv sfx]: where have you been all my life? but then anne laid on a serta perfect sleeper. and realized her life was only just sorta comfortable. not just sorta comfortable. serta comfortable.

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with the mueller report, the state's attorney general here has a number of investigations going on, do you think the president did something wrong financially that his tax returns will reveal. >> all i know is the president seems to be hiding something and that the american people through their elected represent i haves in congress have the right to understand what that is. >> donald trump is trying to stone wall congress at every turn, this week house democrats got a big gift from the state of new york. they passed a bill that would allow congress to gain access to trump's state tax churns. it is not the returns that house democrats want, it could still give them a treasure-trove of information. he is still facing an onslaugt

of investigations. he has 10 from criminal informatio investigations. joining me now professor butler, and siemi, he is a legal analyst on court tv. on the federal level our producer dwayne put this all together, we have the trump inaugural committee donations and spending. a few are related to the inaugural committee. there is the possible roll of trump and others concealing hush money payments, inflating the insurance value of his properties. there is a lot there that is federal. on the state and local level, the trump organization. you have trump inflating assets,

under paying taxes, and one more, according to the congressional investigation, congress is investigating potential foreign influence over trump, obstruction of justice, potential abuse of power. tax returns, money laundering, on and on and on. pa paul butler, could trump end up fating legal jeopardy at the federal and state level. >> you already know, joy, every completed investigation of trump as uncovered crime and corruption. the new york attorney general go out of business in the southern district of new york. and the mueller investigation

found ten episodes of obstruction of justice. so we look at these 29 ongoing investigations now, there is every reason to think that he faces huge financial league jeopardy. >> would the impeachment hearing force those investigations to stop? >> absolutely nop. it is a remedy to remove the president from office. after he is remauved from office robert mueller reminds us he could be tried. he could be put on trial. the only rp he eason he is not jail with michael cohen is because he is the president. >> he seems to be freaking out, take a listen. >> they don't feel they can win the lix, so they're trying to to the 1,000 stabs. keep staffing.

let's have financial -- if you look for $40 million i would think seriously that bob mueller and his group of 18 killers have gone over my taxes, my financial statements, to a level that nobody has gone over them before. and they not discussed, even, they were not even discussed. >> those behind him are like what about us, you're talking about stabbing and killing, what about our farms, should donald trump be worried that his taxes will come out? that congress will get him and he will end up indicted? >> he should be worried about going to jail, that is absolutely correct. that could happen. here is the greater point and what he is right about is that the democrats are wasting their time with all of these impeachment proceedings. if the democrats truly want donald trump to have a day of reckoning and have v this day,

then let them do their job. you just said there are ten state and local investigations. there subpoeo much ridiculous overlapping between state, local, and federal investigations that the democrats are just wasting their time. do your job, worry about health care, worry about immigration, worry about the things that matter to your constituents. and there are 457 democratic nominees for president, why do we whit that number down to focus on the primary. >> what about the argument that we heard earlier today that if you don't impeach impeachment becomes a dead letter. if they can't be impeached. if he can go this far in distorting the president, then just take it out of the constitution. >> it has never worked for a

president. >> one of the articles included him gossiping agent legislatures. that didn't work. there is no point. paul, you better agree with me on this, i'm not playing today, everything in the law is a balancing test, right? you have to balance. so what is important to the constituents? as opposed to impeachment. how are you going to get a democratic in the presidency? think about that. stop wasting time with the impeachment. let the prosecutors do what they are paid to do. they are going to get him. >> the problem is that the foreign general of the united states. the flunky for the president,

directs every federal, and criminal and civil investigation. there is no reason for the american people to have any confidence that the federal investigations, no matter what the hard working prosecutors uncover will result in any indictment. and so i think it is important to both the state investigations to continue, that is how we will get the president's tax returns from the new york state filings that he returned, and also to allow congress to do it's job. we have a president who has an unprecedented level of corruption. it's not about what johnson did back in the day, it's about this president directing people to lie. it is about this president trying to fire anybody who is investigating him. this is an extraordinary level of corruption. this president, his administration, it is corruption to their core, and if congress doesn't fulfill it's constitutional responsibility to do checks and balances on this

administration, we don't need the congress. again, that is what they're there for. that's what they're paid to do. >> we're going to table this, pay a few bills. stay there, don't move, when we come back we will continue this conversation. in the next hour, my friend alex witt will be interviewing presidential candidate 438 seth moulton. that will be interesting. watch that today at 12:00 noon eastern. t 12:00 noon eastern. steakhouse dinner, now at outback. get your choice of soup or salad, entrée like our signature sirloin, and dessert, starting at $14.99. hurry in for this complete dinner before it's completely gone. and try our everyday lunch combos, starting at $7.99. the 2019 subaru outback is how safe is the car you're considering? an iihs top safety pick plus. the honda cr-v is not. sorry, honda.

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it is a very unusual situation, to have information like that to conduct a political campaign. it was a strange development. i think there was strapg deveng developments in that period that we want to look into. >> you mean stranger than the president giving his attorney general the ability to open classified documents. it is all part of the "review."

the move is setting off alarm bells among current intelligence officials that fear that barr will selectively release information like he has done before. paul and seima back with me. william barr said a thing that no attorney general said before. that the activity of fbi investigators that noted and noted after they were tipped off by a kremlin source, after the obama administration was tipped off, that the kremlin was attempting to help donald trump, they investigated whether or not donald trump tried to benefit from it. that's what their job was, here is what william barr said about that. >> we want to make sure that burning an election -- i think spying on a political campaign is a big deal. i'm not suggesting the rules were violated, but i think it was important to look at that. i'm not talking about the fbi

necessarily, but intelligence agencies more broadly. >> so you're not suggesting though that spying occurred? >> i don't, -- well, i think spying it did occur, yes. i think spying did occur. >> william barr said he felt like he was protecting the presidency gauze i felt the rules were being changed to protect trump. just like you cannot commit treason when you are not at war, you cannot call it treason to investigate a guy running for president. this idea that barr is warping the term spying, investigating a thing that is alarming you should investigate, are you worried william barr is essentially running a starr chamber up there? he's just going to investigate whoever donald trump wants locked up? >> i am concerned about that

because he is the attorney general for the american people and one of the legal principles at play here is something called the rule of completeness, that when the american people are given just little bits and pieces of a story, it's not proper. and that's -- you know, that is the problem with what william barr is doing. he's not giving us the complete picture. you can't parse out what is favorable to your president. it is what the american people want, and that is everything. and that's exactly why we should get the unredacted mueller report. >> and i will bring you back here, miss seima, one way to sanction the attorney general would be to impeach the torg aty general for what he's doing and hold him in contempt. >> i think that would be less december tramtal to the american people. i believe in impeachment proceedings, in the past eight federal judges have been impeached. other people have been impeached besides presidents, so perhaps

there's enough to at least investigate william barr to initiate impeachment proceedings and, again, as long as this didn't detract. listen, joy, here's the danger. if donald trump gets impeached but doesn't get convicted, then his supporters are going to ratchet up their enthusiasm, and there's more likelihood he will get re-elected. >> is it possible for them to get more enthusiastic? they're pretty darn enthusiastic. i don't think it's possible to increase it but i will let you talk. >> so we know during the other impeachment hearings, including the watergate hearings that were leading to the impeachment of president nixon, once people hear the testimony, once they see folks talking about the finality and corruption of a president, that changes the politics. that's one reason why the house wants to get all of these

documents and evidence, so they can haul people like robert mueller into the house chambers, put him on national television and tell them, it's one thing to read the mueller report, it's another thing to hear this guy who looks like the prosecutor on "law & orderese" with all of th gravity talking about these ten different counts of obstruction of justice. >> what do you make of the fact robert mueller doesn't want to do that? it seems clear jerry nadler doesn't want to testify in public, he just wants to go in private and have a tricht come out? >> i hauled so many people in front of the grand jury that didn't want to be there. that's what he does. >> they're not going to haul in robert mueller. what's happening? >> we're talking about subpoena power and power and authority of congress. it's an equal branch of government. that's what you were talking about earlier in the show, joy. it's not like the president has

more power than congress. at the end of the day it's not robert mueller's car. if the house wants him to testify publicly, the house has the power to command that. >> seima? >> yes, they do have the powers to command that and in terms of investigation, that's fine. paul, i don't understand why you keep harping on obstruction of justice. the mueller report, one of the takeaways was there were no findings of obstruction. >> that's not true. there were about ten different instances even justin amash has come out and said a thousand different u.s. attorneys have said there are tens of incidents but you cannot indict a sitting president. >> seema, you sound like you've been drinking bill barr's kool-aid! here's the problem, when people stop me on the street and ask is he going to get away with this? is the president of the united

states going to get away with all of this that has been exposed, the last words of the mueller report are that no person is above the law with regard to donald trump. that remains to be seen. >> we love having you guys on together. come back. >> oh, god. >> you know you love it, seema. love you guys. thank you very much for being here, paul butler. this has been a fun show. we will have a little more after the break. the break.

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all right, that does it for me. we will see you tomorrow on as a.m. joy. now i will toss it over to alex witt. you have a great show teed up. you have seth molten. >> i do. this will be so interesting to see where he stands. remember he such a big platform trying to oppose in anancy pelo. and we will see where he stands. and two seconds we have to talk about "game of thrones." >> we're like sensei and arya. >> we are. >> have a good day. >> good day to all of you in new york. 9:00 a.m. out west, almost noon eastern. far away in japan, the president fighting over the 25th argument with nancy pelosi.

to believe or not believe, a viral video of nancy pelosi sprets across social media and stays there. th found, a hiker turns up alive after going more than two weeks missing in a hawaiian forest. but new this hour, a federal judge in california is blocking president trump from using defense department funds secured under his national emergency declaration to build parts of his u.s./mexico border wall. it begins work on two planned projects across 50 miles. and the battle between democrats and house republicans intensifying, house impeachment growing with 38 democrats supporting it and one republican. david gura joinhad this guest earlier. >> ty