at 5:00 p.m. eastern for another live edition of "politics nation." until then, keep the conversation going. like us on facebook.com/politicsnation and follow us on twitter @politicsnation. up next "deadline white house" with my friend and colleague. >> hi everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. the country's attorney general has been given the power to declassify intelligence as part of the president's campaign to investigate his perceived political enemies. attorney general william barr who has staked out ground as the president's ideological twin on the unsubstantiated accusation that donald trump's campaign was spied on has been granted the authority by the president to investigate the investigation into trump's campaign and its ties to russia. the white house directive has unleashed a firestorm of criticism including from senator

mark warner, top democrat on the senate intel committee, warner saying in a statement this afternoon, quote, people risk their lives to gather the intelligence material that president trump and attorney general barr are so eager to politicize. selectively declassifying sources and methods in order to serve a political agenda will make it harder for the intelligence community to do their jobs protecting this country from those who wish to do us harm. the "new york times" reports this about the impact on the intelligence community. quote, the c.i.a. considers confidential sources its most highly classified and most protected assets, and any investigation that could possibly force it to reveal those identities is likely to create a stand-off. donald trump's war against the intelligence and law enforcement community has been under way since shortly after election day and escalated yesterday with the president accusing former officials of treason. >> sir, the constitution says

treason is punishable by death. you've accused your adversaries of treason. who, specifically, are you accusing of treason? >> well, i think a number of people, and i think what you look at is they have unsuccessfully tried to take down the wrong person. if you look at comey, if you look at mccabe, if you look at probably people higher than that, if you look at -- they want an insurance policy so that should she for any reason lose, remember, 100 million to one, maybe said 100 million to nothing, but should she lose, we'll have an insurance policy and we'll get this guy out of office. that's what they said and that's what they meant. that's treason. that's treason. >> more questions than answers today about how this will impact the intelligence community with one former national security official telling me today that high level resignations are a possibility as an investigation into the fabric of the russia investigation without any med cat that any laws have been

broken is brazenly political. all eyes on leaders of those agencies who have clashed with donald trump repeatedly over the last two years. that is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. mike schmidt washington correspondent for the "new york times." jeremy bash former chief of staff at the c.i.a. and the department of defense. joyce vance former u.s. attorney and former chief of staff to vice presidents joe biden and al gore is here. let me start with you. i saw you on the 11th hour last night shortly after this news broke but i wonder if now that a few hours have passed and the fact that not a single -- not a single intelligence or national security official has come out and said this is a good thing, for the intelligence community, makes this a more ominous development than even last nate when the story broke. >> i think this is very serious. i've been talking all day to national security professionals. here's what i think went on. normally if there was a doj

investigation and they wanted to potentially declassify or release intelligence information they'd work it out with the heads of the nsa and director of national intelligence. clearly there was a disagreement, clearly there was a fight, clearly the heads of the intelligence organizations said we're not going to give you the authority to release information about our human sources who risked their lives and our clandestine collection mechanisms because if we do that for a purely political effort, no one is going to talk to america. no one is going to give us their information. it is going to endanger national security. i think bill barr probably said, well i need that authority and i'm going to the president. and the president issued basically a new executive order, overturning an executive order that is basically -- has basically been in place since president reagan which says these intelligence leaders and only these intelligence leaders have the authority to declassify information. >> so much to unpack there. let me follow up on two points.

one, two former intelligence officials likened this move to the one that put secretary mattis over the edge. ultimately a lot of national security officials believe secretary mattis finally resigned not just because he disagreed with the president's syria policy but because he feared that lives were at risk, that perhaps syrians who helped as translators or allies, that their lives would be at risk. they said there might be a parallel concern in the intelligence community that allies, informants, intelligence sharing agreements could very much be at risk if the attorney general who has staked out ground for himself as an ally of the fringiest kinds of beliefs that the president and his allies and conservative media voice about the intelligence community, do you share that concern? >> i do. it's one thing, a bad thing but one thing to politicize intelligence analysis to say, well the analysis of what happened with regard to the iraq war should lead to this policy outcome, war or peace or what have you. it is a completely different

thing to politicize the use of intelligence sources, human sources, assets, confidential sources of the united states that operate in very dangerous situations overseas risking their lives and the lives of their families to give us information and then that information and their identity could be revealed for a purely political effort by bill barr to amplify donald trump's political, wacky political theories. it's insanity. i don't think intelligence professionals will stand for it. >> let me press you a little bit on something you alluded to. you thought attorney general barr was getting a little resistance in his efforts to get his hands on some of this intel. i picked up today it wasn't just the intelligence community but also perhaps at the fbi. there is a real gap opened up between the fbi director chris wray who testified he did not believe the investigation was a witch hunt. you have the current attorney general saying that spying occurred. obviously that is the president's position. you picking up on any widening

gap there between the fbi and the attorney general? >> two points. one is barr is investigating, make no mistake, the c.i.a., the nsa, and the fbi. he is investigating his own career law enforcement professionals. that's point one and that is one of the sources of the split. but second, as i noted, nicolle, this happens sometimes and they work it out. they have a meeting or a process to figure out how to reveal or declassify information. sometimes to include it in a report or sometimes potentially to use it in court against criminal defendants. there is no reason to get a presidential executive order unless there was a massive, knock down, drag out fight and that is exactly what i suspect happened. >> jim comey has weighed in on this development tweeting this in the last couple hours. investigate whatever you wish about 2016 but don't forget the people of the fbi must investigate and stop russian efforts in the 2020 election. what impact will loose talk

about spying and disgraceful talk about treason have on fbi agents and analysts? any sense about how this directive has landed inside the fbi? >> no sense about what the current thinking inside the fbi is but sort of a larger question about what is barr actually doing here? what kind of investigation is this? the justice department does criminal investigations. its inspector general looks at how decisions are made and whether they should be improved. sort of in the noncriminal area of how it functions. so what is going on here if there's not enough to do a criminal investigation? why has it not reached that level but they're still continuing to look at it? it is just sort of this larger thing that hangs over this. there is an inspector general for the intelligence community that could and does have authority over all these departments and agencies to do

this. it doesn't look like that person has been tasked but barr has taken this on himself. it is sort of unusual and different and we're still trying to figure it out and understand what's behind it. is it to keep trump at bay? or does barr really think there's a "there" there? >> what "there" there would be there that wouldn't be uncovered by the other multiple investigations? the president's closest ally in congress ran the house intel committee and declassified documents over the objections of the president's hand picked fbi director for two years. there is an i.g. report as you just referenced. another gentleman mr. huber is investigating this. what were the deficiencies in the existing investigations that barr identified if you know? >> our guess is that it is in the c.i.a. and in the intelligence community. and that the inspector general for the justice department can't get into that stuff. huber may not be able to get into it. the only person who could really unlock that would be someone who has declassification authority over it.

and now that's barr. so there were things outside the justice department that barr wanted to see or have access to that he may have been impeded. and that is why he has these new authorities. that is sort of our best guess at this point because there's no other, you know, explanation i guess. >> there is no other explanation, joyce. there is no other explanation than what has been articulated in the last ten minutes. this is a political power grab. this is so outside the norms of law enforcement and intelligence. and i think one of the most alarming things is that the only people jumping up and down in opposition are people out of government and out of elected office. what strikes you, joyce, about this moment and this development? >> you know, i do think that this is shocking. the problem is this whole administration is so shocking that sometimes the outrage meter, it's hard for the public

to read where we are. but i think we're off the scale today. i've sat on the doj side of the table a time or two when i wanted to use some of the intelligence community's information as evidence in a criminal prosecution. there we're talking about a case where everybody was certain that there was a criminal violation that we wanted to prosecute as opposed to this situation which you and mike have pointed out as an unpredicated investigation, really just virtually a politically motivated scavenger hunt to see if they can find some treasure. but even in those real cases, prosecutors were very respectful even when we didn't want to be because we wanted the evidence. very respectful of the intelligence community's equity. we understood real people's lives were at stake. this country's ability to gather intelligence in the future was at stake. we would always work that out. here i think there is no conclusion other than jeremy's that this attorney general felt like he couldn't take to the

public information that he probably was able to see given his level of security clearance but he wants to take it public and he and the president are willing to trash the entire process to do that. >> ron, we shouldn't let it escape attention in a moment of i don't know what that the president invoked the word "treason" to describe former fbi director jim comey, former acting and deputy fbi director andrew mccabe and former fbi agent pete struck. what say you? >> so this week is the 212th anniversary of our framers' gathering in philadelphia to write the constitution. donald trump stood in the roosevelt room yesterday and decided to crumple up another page of it and throw it away. i mean, him saying that jim comey and other law enforcement officials had committed the capital offense punishable by death of treason is outrageous, baseless, and the hallmark of an authoritarian leader. what is going on here isn't an investigation at all. i worked for the justice department and the attorney

general. what bill barr is doing isn't an investigation. he is just trying to stir up material for fox and friends and for rush limbaugh and alex jones. it is just feeding the president's conspiracy thing. what you see in the end is with michael cohen behind bars, bill has become donald trump's fixer. he is basically trying to fix the game for trump. he's willing to throw our intelligence community under the bus to do that. that's a horrible outrage. >> let me get your thoughts on invoking the crime of treason punishable by death to describe former fbi director jim comey, former deputy and acting fbi director andrew mccabe and former fbi agent pete struck? >> well, it's ridiculous. it needs to be repudiated by all people who are wanting to participate in our democratic process including democrats, republicans, independents, nonpartisan professionals and our law enforcement, intelligence, and military

communities. i mean, let's just make clear what is happening here. the president is willing to risk the lives of the people defending our country so he can spin a political yarn to feed as ron noted political conspiracy theories. that is a dereliction of duty and an abuse of office and i think the congressional intelligence and judiciary committees have to be all over this. they ask to ask exactly what motivated this unprecedented power grab. >> there is a statement this afternoon that says this. i'm confident the attorney general will work with the intelligence community in accordance with the long-established standards to protect highly-sensitive classified information that, if publicly released, would put our national security at risk. in your story is a line about how what barr is seeking is more

information about what foreign assets the cia had in russia in 2016 and what those informants were telling the agency about how president v. putin of russia sought to meddle in the 2016 election. what does barr need more access to information about what foreign assets the cia had in russia in 2016 than what is available through the interagency process? what is he not able to get his hands on that is part of that sort of sweep of intel? >> well, we think what he may want to sort of get is sort of an understanding of how the intelligence community's assessment went from russia's meddling in the election to a counter intelligence investigation on the president. look, there are some very legitimate issues here that the inspector general is looking at. this was a very unusual situation that the fbi

confronted. they were investigating a campaign. it was very delicate. there was a dossier of information they had from one of their sources that had been paid for by the opponent of trump. and those are thorny issues that deserve a full look at by the inspector general. so the question here is that would barr's efforts sort of over shadow that or undermine that or take away from that where there are probably some really important lessons to be learned about how investigations of this nature, big counterintelligence investigations, essentially counterintelligence attack on the united states involving a campaign. >> nicolle, i just have to disagree a little bit. there is no legitimate reason for the attorney general to have human sources in russia. i can't think of a single one. the only one i can think of is he wants to somehow trot them out publicly, malign them, and undermine them, and say the whole basis for the investigation was flawed. that is the only reason he would

do it. to do what michael says which is to review whether or not the fbi had sufficient legal predicate to look at a presidential campaign, he doesn't need russian human sources. absolutely not. there is no need for that. >> joyce, is some of this the remaining toxicity around the dossier and the fact that for whatever reason the dossier was transferred to the justice department was at least floating around and that remains one of the president's triggers, one of the president's conspiracy theories about what mike is describing, the counterintelligence investigation, which was kept secret, unlike the investigation nah hillary clinton, until after the election? >> i think you're absolutely right about that. the dossier, which continues to trigger the president really i think sheds light on his inability to understand this process. anyone who's looked at this with any level of clarity understands that the dossier is raw intelligence. it's the kind of information that fbi and the intelligence

community collect from their sources. they don't take it at face value. they do 'vette it. we all know the dossier did not form the basis for anything that the bureau did, that in fact they'd have had to go to a federal judge who would have made certain they have probable cause, that means reliable information, to use before he or she would authorize them to move forward. but it is the president's singular focus on the dossier as part of the litany of wrongs that have been done to him that keeps this in his focus. >> keeps it in his obsession. we all know how he is when he's obsessed. thank you so much for starting us off. after the break, i know a thing or two about traveling the path from texas to the oval office. we'll talk to someone else hoping to make that journey. beto o'rourke joins us next. also ahead anatomy of a smear campaign. we'll go inside the president's attack on nancy pelosi delivered via a doctored video disseminated by the president's

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this country are watching these games, they take a knee to bring our attention and our focus to this problem to ensure that we fix it. that is why they are doing it and i can think of nothing more american than to peacefully stand up or take a knee for your rights any time anywhere any place. >> an eloquent answer to a tough question. that's when most of us in the

national media first heard about beto o'rourke and started covering his candidacy. it was august of last year only nine months ago if you can believe it. in the months that followed he went from a cable news curiosity to a national sensation, young upstart democrat pushing against an incumbent republican senator who a lot of republicans didn't even like to the brink in texas of all places. he ultimately lost by a very narrow margin but the support he gathered was evident on election day. >> what will it feel like if you see him win this race tonight? >> everything. just everything. we want him to win. and we'll be watching the tv tonight with him. he'll be someplace in the city. but it'll be just -- it'll mean so much. it'll mean my gosh we all still have a chance to have a decent

country with decent values with decent relationships with other people. >> joining me now, beto o'rourke the former congressman from texas now running for president of the united states. thanks for spending some time with us. how is it going? are you moving people the way you moved pamela? >> you know what? people are moving me right now. >> yeah. >> we're showing up in these communities and having the most honest, raw conversations about what is going on in this country right now and how we'll come together to make sure this country full fills its potential and promise. it's never been more challenging given the president we have in office. this democracy was already badly damaged. it wasn't representing everyone. not everyone counted. our state texas ranked 50th in the country in voter turnout not by accident but by design. now you've got somebody in the white house who seeks to undermine it at each and every single turn. a country already very

polarized, a president who wants to divide it even further. so the answer to this cannot be more division, more polarization, more undermining of our democracy. it has to be bringing people together and ensuring everyone can stand to be counted a the this defining moment of truth. that's what i'm seeing as i travel the country. yeah i'm excited about what we're doing and the way in which we're doing it. >> you talked about people moving you. what are the stories that are moving you the most? i don't think that breaks through in the national conversation. the national conversation frankly is who is punching donald trump the hardest? there seems to be some hunger in the democratic base. if it is something different what are you hearing the most on the trail? >> just getting to meet people where they are. we were just in pacific junction up along the missouri river in the southwestern part of iowa with two brothers, both farmers, whose fields are now lakes. the stored soybeans that couldn't get to markets during this trade war and because of

these tariffs literally exploded out of the storage bins in which they were held. they're at the confluence not just of the disastrous presidency and administration but climate change that had produced the worst flooding in the history of their community and they're not looking for a democratic or republican or independent response to this. they just want this country to work and ensure that they can continue to grow the food upon which they -- we depend and do so at a profit. that we invest in the infrastructure to protect their communities going forward and meet this monumental challenge of climate change. again, not one person not one party but all of us coming together. going to lords town, ohio, and seeing the aftermath of gm's pullout from that community after that state invested $82 million in the infrastructure surrounding the plant to make gm a success. meeting with dave green the president of uaw fighting not just for his members but for

everyone who lives in lords town. the barber shop, the diner, everyone who is part of an economy that was built up around an investment in that factory and that way of life. again, not looking for a person or a party he wants this country to come together and be there for those who helped produce its success in the past. folks understand that everything is on the line and more than just voting or registering or tweeting or commenting on facebook. they have to come out and come together. so in these town halls and house parties, and visits we're holding across the country i'm seeing that energy right now. it's made me more optimistic about the future of this country than i have ever been. if i can help bring people together in service to confronting these historic challenges i will have served my purpose. that's what this campaign is all about. >> listening to you it is clear you have that thing that not all politicians have. you remember people's names. you remember where you were when

you met them. you remember their stories. you get very snarky national media coverage. where is the disconnect? >> i don't know. i spend very little time on twitter right now because when i'm meeting people and you're eye ball to eye ball, and you're connecting in the most raw, honest, authentic way, there is something really powerful and magical about that. it is how you bring people together. if this country has never been more divided, never been more consumed by the digital devices we hold in front of our face, it can be absolutely powerful to be together and to connect. to meet a 14-year-old middle school student in newton, iowa, who says i'm sick of going into school wondering if i'm going to come back out again because she understands we have an epidemic of gun violence in this country. i met this 12-year-old girl in las vegas, nevada, who is moving

to mexico because both of her parents, long-time u.s. residents, are being deported. she is a u.s. citizen. and in a really direct way to me, she is not even old enough to vote, she's like, look, beto, i don't want to hear excuses or platitudes. i just want you to tell me how my family can be together again. how we make this country work. i don't find that stuff on twitter. i don't see that so much in the talking heads but that urgency and demand we meet this moment with everything we've got and every single one of us is what i'm finding in real day-to-day life across this country. so that's where i spend my time, where i find my inspiration and what literally drives this campaign. >> let me just do a little bit of a lightning round with you while we have you. i just want to get you in some of the news of the day. donald trump giving his attorney general the authority to declassify intel. good idea? bad idea? >> really bad idea. and in a long line of attacks on the most fundamental

institutions that have made this country the greatest on the face of the planet. we had a preview of this in 2017 when he stood on that stage in helsinki, fin land, and defended vladimir putin instead of this country and our intelligence community. when he accused the fbi of being a campaign arm of the democratic party. how does that feel for those members of federal law enforcement and the intelligence community who are consistently day in and day outputting their lives on the line for this country to keep us safe and to pursue accountability, the necessary investigations, and the justice that guarantees that no man no matter what position he holds is above the law in this country? so his invitation of a foreign power to attack our democracy, his cover-up of it afterwards, his attorney general refusing to testify before congress and calling that investigation an exercise in spying, this is really dangerous stuff for the greatest democracy the world has

ever known. if we fail to confront this in a meaningful, powerful way to ensure the justice necessary, we will have set an unforgiveable precedent that will ruin and unravel this democracy for the generations that follow us. so this is a moment that counts for more than any other i can imagine. i want all of us, republican, democrat, independent alike, to be up to this challenge. >> i want to give you a chance to respond to some of the criticisms out there about you but i want one more answer from you on what you just described. with all that said is nancy pelosi moving too slowly toward impeachment? >> i just read about a case of contempt brought against eric holder during the obama administration. it took eight or nine years to wind through the courts. the only way we'll get answers now is to move forward on impeachment. it is the only way you compel the documentation, the testimony, the truth, the facts then follow them as far as they

go, as high up as they lead. you only get justice and prevent future attacks on this democracy if you take that last important option and i think it's time for us to do that. >> how do you push back against this notion that there's only room for either you or mayor pete buttigieg in this race? it would seem the democratic party is hungry enough for a win in 2020 for there to be room for both of you but, nonetheless, that is one of the media con strukts around your candidacy. what is your push back? >> my pushback is the people who are coming out to our town halls and visits across this country, i'm sure they're doing it with mayor pete as well. you would think with 24 candidates in this nomination process that people would be tired of this. instead, you're seeing record turnout. folks are curious. they want to hold us accountable. they want to ask questions of us, see how we answer. and then ensure that we have the best possible nominee not only to defeat donald trump in 2020

but to bring this country together again in 2021. i think the number of candidates and the quality of candidates you're seeing right now is a very good problem for the democratic party and for our democracy to have. we've got a lot of time before the first caucuses and the first primaries so let's go out and meet those voters and allow them to make an informed decision going forward. so i think we're in a really good place right now and just look forward to continuing to campaign in this way. >> so i've straddled both sides of the campaign and now covering campaigns. play media critic. what can we do better trying to cover your canned dassies from very far from where the first votes will be cast in iowa and new hampshire? don't hold back. >> this is a good question. well, i tell you, it just is what it is. but we'll have -- >> doesn't have to be. >> we'll have an incredibly powerful town hall meeting, ten or 12 amazing questions, people sharing their own stories, their

testimonials that, you know, help us to understand some of the challenges we face on affordability of prescription medication or this crisis in opioid overdose and abuse and death and then afterwards there will be members of the media who are there especially the national media who will ask me, you know, a horse race question, or, you know, some kind of sensational dynamic going on that does not connect to the lives of the people that we all just had a chance to listen to and to meet. and so this is kind of like the question you asked about the disconnect between twitter and what we see in these town halls. i think more engagement on those fundamental issues, how do i afford to ensure that i can take care of myself and fill this prescription or how do i guarantee that my child is going to go to world class public school by ensuring that we pay public school teachers a living wage? how do we confront climate change before it's too late and help our fellow americans understand the devastation that we're seeing in the central valley of california and houston, texas, along the

missouri and the mississippi, in iowa. these are the issues that are on people's minds right now. it's very infrequent that i am asked about one of those issues present company excluded by members of the media especially when we're on the ground and on the trail. i understand how captivating the horse race part of this can be. but i really feel that disconnect between what is often reported and what is often said in these town hall meetings. hopefully our campaign can be to the bridge for that because we live stream this stuff so anyone can tune in and be able to see it for themselves. >> well, i'll leave you with free advice. i used to spend a lot of time on campaigns. grab garret, who is nbc's correspondent and tell him what is on your mind. if you don't like the coverage you can change it. you're the candidate. i hope you'll come back and keep this going. let this be the beginning. glad to have you. >> absolutely. absolutely. thank you very much. appreciate it. >> after the break anatomy of a trump tactic.

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the political war of words between president trump and speaker pelosi has deteriorated to a level beneath words. comprehensible words at least. that's why we're going to do something different here to make sure you understand just how low the president has stooped in his efforts to smear the speaker of the house. we believe transparency is the best disinfectant for dirty politics so we're going to break down what the president of the united states did to the speaker of the house when he shared a doctored video of her with his millions of twitter followers. a slowed down video like the one he tweeted of pelosi has the effect of making anyone look like they're having a hard time speaking. we decided to stop airing the pelosi video so i'll show you what i look like and sound like doctored. here i am yesterday.

>> hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. are democrats closing in on donald trump's red line? >> some would argue i sound like that anyway. a three-second google search i found a video of the president slowed down as well. i'll show you the actual footage of what donald trump said at a campaign rally back in 2016 first. >> 19 trillion going to 21 trillion not billion. we have trillions. nobody even knows what a trillion is. >> 19 trillion going to 21 trillion not billion. we have trillions. >> today's lesson on doctored video. joining me for this conversation, jason johnson politics editor for "the root" plus the former communications director for president obama and my friend reverend al sharpton

host of politics here on msnbc and president of the national action network. ron is still with us in washington. jen, i wanted to cover this story of what donald trump did. he sent out a doctored video of nancy pelosi but i wanted to cover it without repeating and furthering his smear of nancy pelosi. >> right. >> which had the intent to do exactly what he did to hillary clinton, who fell ill at an event on 9/11 i think in new york. this is part of the sexism of donald trump where he makes a woman look feeble and this is part of the debasement of our politics where he irresponsibly tweets out a video of sfwhun a doctored video. >> and you have enough of a campaign person in you to know to not repeat the video and try to use other means to show what he's doing. which i appreciate. this is what he does to strong women. and, you know, when they started going after hillary for being weak and being sick, which i thought was particularly diabolical but smart because she was so strong and worked so hard and that was a strength of hers.

and now he is doing it to pelosi and is trying to make -- and there is a lot of projection, right? he's an older guy. he's not the most healthy. he doesn't take great care of himself. not in the best shape. this is what he tries to do to women in particular to make them look ineffective. >> absolutely i think this is sexist. he does not do this to men. i think he is intimidated by smart women. nancy pelosi is smarter than donald trump and he is intimidated by that. if you notice, every time there is a meeting with them he completely falls apart. he went berzerk the other day. there is no other way to describe it. i think that he -- his being unraveled by a smart woman, he just can't help it. the danger, though, and i agree with her that thank god you didn't run the pelosi tape but

we're talking about finding politics, doing unprecedented things. this is the president of the united states doing it at a presidential level. this is what is so alarming to me. we're not talking partisan politics. this is a president sending this out on twitter. >> look at, the point of a doctored video, we spent a lot of time trying to do this segment responsibly and i showed myself to make the point that we're not trying to insult anybody but to show just how easily you could alter someone by changing the speed. the president didn't put that notification altered video up on the smear against pelosi. we put that up. i mean, he is not interested in transparency or a fair fight because he can't win a fair fight. >> and i think it's always important. we always have these conversations about how this isn't normal, right? we got upset, what, eight years ago when dig cheney used profanity in congress and it got caught on tape? you know, we now have a president of the united states who just tries to personally

debase his political opponents who he supposedly is working with. that is sort of the larger question here. i agree with everyone else. thank you very much, nicolle, for not sort of giving him the attention he wanted to get but i also think it is the idea that he can't give a policy response so he is basically acting like a 7-year-old and saying you're a dumb-dumb head. that's what he does now. he just attacks people because he has no policy response. that's the dangerous precedent we're seeing here. >> it does suggest, you know, politics when you've got nothing left, you go this low. and obviously, michelle obama, you know, you go low we go high. you have to engage donald trump where he is and i actually admire nancy pelosi for taking him on, for questioning his manhood, for questioning his mental acuity this week as she's done but when the fight got too hot, donald trump doctored a video. >> no question, nicolle. we have to remember also that while you've handled this issue really responsibly here on your show right now as we're talking at this moment thousands of

people are seeing this video on facebook, on twitter, on social media florm media platforms, without the context or explanation and that is what donald trump is about. he has, he has done this in 2016 to hillary clinton and is doing it now, he is putting this material out into the political blood stream by using new technology, new social media platforms and millions of people are seeing it and that is corrupting our politics. >> you're one of the best operatives in the business. what do you do? pete, you're right. people that got this video via tweet from the president's twitter feed, they didn't have that disclosure. they may not know it's doctored. they may have figured out donald trump by now. it certainly doesn't say it is doctored. it's been my theory for a long time that 16 republicans lost, hillary clinton lost electorally because of the asymmetry that trump has the audacity to lie. he has the sort of enthusiasm to

debase politics, to tweet out a video like what he tweeted out about pelosi. how do you counter that? >> first of all the social media platforms have to do a better job policing this. it is not just -- it is, nicolle, you're right, definitely trump's debasement and depravity but it is technologically facilitated and we can't forget that. that people are delivering this to one another on these platforms and i think facebook and twitter have to do a better job of policing that. campaigns, i agree. democrats running against him will have to come up with better answers than we had in the clinton campaign in 2016 for how to go and check this. >> i think that he's right on both counts. but i also think there is another cynical part of this we shouldn't miss. he's also distracting us from the fact that he did throw a temper tantrum. >> of course he did. >> when he was supposed to be discussing infrastructure. >> right. >> i travel a lot. the bridges, the tunnels, the highways, the streets are crumbling.

and he, throu threw what my mot would call a hissy fit in three minutes and walked out of a meeting that his own supporters need to see the infrastructure dealt with. >> that's right. >> and could provide jobs for them and he walks out because someone dared say he ought to be investigated, that he's above the law, infrastructure, bridges, tunnels, and highways were thrown to the side because you questioned me and he covers it with this perverted tape on nancy pelosi for saying that he did exactly what he did, threw a temper tantrum rather than deal with infrastructure, which he promised his supporters he was going to deal with. let's not miss that. >> i think people cover this dynamic as she is the perfect foil for him. i think it's the opposite. i think he's the perfect foil for her. she has some challenges keeping her caucus together on impeachment. i think he is such a unifying foil for her that for her to get

the best -- it's friday. she won monday. she won tuesday. she won wednesday. and she won thursday. when you're right, he lined up his staffers, mid level, low level, high level staffers alike and made them all testify like hostages in a individual i don't he that he was calm. it's bananas. >> wasn't even in the room. >> exactly. >> one that was in the hallway. yes, sir, you were calm. they weren't even there. and i think again, she is smarter than him. it reminds me when i was a kid and muhammad ali fought foreman, he had a rope-a-dope. you lay on the rope and let him punch himself out. that reminds me of trump. he is doing the work for her. the american people need to remember this is about infrastructure. >> here is his effort at spinning this. >> did you hear what she said long before i went after her? she made horrible statements. she knows they're not true. she said terrible things. so i just responded in kind.

look, you think nancy's the same as she was? she's not. maybe we can all say that. >> it's like he's on yelp. i read my reviews. they used to be good now they're bad. i'm so sad. >> i don't know that there is a better way for the democratic presidential candidates to handle this because he is such a child, because it is all about projection. i think what you see happening now is checks and balances, you know, as they were imagined in the constitution, happening in a very dramatic fashion not in the way perhaps we would have expected to see a president behave but the speaker of the house holding him accountable. i think, yeah. there's millions of his followers that are going to see that video and believe it. there's many more who are not. and ultimately, she is getting the best of him and ultimately i think she's the one that's got the check on him and, you know, that's yet to be played out how far that's going to go. she's got a lot of power.

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the break. >> no problem. you can't stop this. there's no stopping this. we can't cut it out of social media. this is the new normal. and he may have been person has to be prepared for it. it's not that i necessarily believe in the wisdom of crowds, but a lot of people, there's a branding to trump, people know what he tweets is nonsense and attacks. it doesn't land like it used to. he's been doing this for five or six years. >> feels like eight or nine. >> feels like forever. but i don't think it lands the way it used to. >> i think that's right, but he's still able to sort of turn the conversationn't edges. an insult lands more squarely than a compliment, and this was a smear against a woman in

politics who had his number five days in a row. >> ashe's going to get his numbr again. it's like a he can ler. the comedian is calls going to be remembered, but if he can't come up with a response, the he can ler won. at the end of the day, the fact that he has to go overboard in every single one of his responses, it starts to make him look week. when he throws these tantrums, when he gets this angry for this long, people are like, all right, but she still got you. >> ron, do you accept the prem that some of his tactics are now less effective because they're so trodden? do you think the next democrat that goes toe to toe, the democratic nominee for president will have maybe an easier time than hillary clinton did combating all the lies, combating all the smears, combating the stunts? do you think there's some sort of savvy to how he rolls? >> look, i do think the next

democratic candidate will have it a bit easier in a rum respects. the only way donald trump could have won in 2016 was by people believing there was no way people could have won in 2016. that influenced how comey handled this matter and influenced i think how a lot of the coverage of trump treated him as, like, an interesting spectacle for media but not something to worry about. i do think some of these things as jen said have been seen over and over again, but if you look at the statistics, trump right now is outspending all the democrats combined on social media bay significant margin. and these things aren't just coming from trump. people share them with one another. people don't know they're coming from trump. their neighbor posts it on facebook. the democrats have to work with the platforms to police this because this is going to have an

effect in 2020. >> i read the story on trump spending on social media. i thought why, because it's an unregulated media platform. political ads on networks have to be true. content on facebook, i mean, as everyone has said, this altered video of nancy pelosi is all over facebook without any disclaimer. >> yeah. that is -- having that formula out to all his people, it really -- it hurt us a ton and democrats are -- you can't change human nature and how people respond to things even when they're not true, but you can do a better job putting your message out there. that's something they need to change. >> and they have to aggressively put their platform out there and deal with the issues as it is and let him be the cry baby. for father's day his children ought to give him a big pacifier. >> you and me will send him one. we'll sneak in a break. we'll be right back.

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my thanks to jason, jen, the rev and ron klain and to all of you for watching. i'm nicolle wallace. see you monday for deadly white house at 4:00 p.m. trouble in the playpen. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. tonight we have a friday full of crazy for you. with the trump crowd calling speaker pelosi from nuts to tipsy. donald trump crowning himself an extremely stable genius. once again throwing out the charge of treason against his enemies, a crime that is historically punishable by death. in trump's mind, however, treason is when people are disloyal to him. his incredible lack of understanding about one of the serious charges in the