twitter. that's just some of the examples. invite you to check it out, leave a comment. we will respond. that does it for us. hope you're enjoying holiday weekend with family and friends. see you tomorrow at 6:00 p.m. eastern, "hardball" is up next. >> un-american, this is "hardball." i'm chris matthews in washington. tonight shine a light on the malignant hate groups in america. white hate groups and neonazis took to streets in altogether 2017 conjured up images of hate. joe biden last month. >> there on august of 2017 we saw klansmen and neonazis come

out in the open. crazed faces illuminated by torches, veins bulging, racism. ant chanting same bile across europe in the '30s. that's what we heard the words of the president of the united states that stunned the world and shocked the conscious of this nation. he shed there were quote some very fine people on both sides. very fine people on both sides? >> nearly two years after charlottesville president trump has struggled to denounce the protesters and stood by his comments at the time. >> racism is evil. and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs. you look at both sides, i think there's blame on both sides. you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. not talking about the neo-nazis

and white nationalists, they should be condemned totally. >> if you look at what i said, you will see that question was answered perfectly. i was talking about people that went because they felt very strongly about the monument to robert e. lee. >> charlottesville revealed visible forms of white supremacy and hate, hardly showed it all. growing list of such events, including attacks at religious organizations. tree of life synagogue in pittsburgh, chabad in california. of 50 killings, 78% committed by white supremacists. violence is reminder to many americans of the hatred that remains in our society, even to

those who have faced down violent racism in america. selma march, u.s. congressman john lewis was georgia was beaten when confronted crossing edwin pettis bridge, bloody sunday. after the attack on jewish worshippers in poway, took to the floor. >> we've come to the point in this nation where we can no longer attend church, go to the synagogue or mosque without feerg the worst. how many lives until we decide there is no room in america for hate? >> i sat down with john lewis in washington. >> it's memorial day but want to talk about the hateful acts in

country last couple of weeks. you've been strong going against what it says about our country right now. >> chris, we have to be strong. there's too much violence, too much hate. and dr. king said on one occasion, hate is too heavy a burden to bear. somehow and some way we got to lay down this burden. i don't know what has happened to america. it makes me sad, make me sometime cry. i can never forget what happened in charlottesville, the church in charleston, and spread like wildfire. >> something new or old hate? people worried about ethic change, change, immigration? what stirred it up just now? >> combination of several things. those of us in political arena

need to speak up and need to speak out. this is not the america that we want. we want a better america. we want to bring people together, because we're one people. we're one family. we all live in the same house. american house. the world house. we're brothers and sisters. we can do wettbetter, much bett. civil rights movement we talked the way of peace, lochve. i was beaten, left bloody and unconscious but never hated anyone, never will. those in the political arena need to preach the way of love of peace, help created beloved

community and help bring people together as one people, one family. >> when you were leading sncc, student nonviolent coordinating committee, one of the first lunch counter sit-ins in nashville, you had people throwing stuff on you, what did you see in your faces when they were trying to humiliate you for trying to get grilled cheese sandwich at department store counter? >> i saw hate. i saw a sense that you don't belong here. you get back, stay in your place. but a lot of those people changed. and nashville is a much better place, the south is a much better place today because people saw it, and we all confronted it. but today it is spreading around america like wildfire. and around the world. >> yeah, what do you make of the

president? >> i don't think this president has been helpful. i think he feels at home with what is going on. when he reacted to what was happening in charlottesville, good people on both sides, i cried. it's not the america that i dream for, the one i was trying to help set right, it's not the america we had during the days of president kennedy and lyndon johnson, it's different. >> did you think -- there seemed to be a pattern. we had bill clinton, pretty darned good -- then obama. >> good. obama was good. >> obama even better. seemed like getting somewhere. what happened to get people to vote for trump? knowing his attitudes about race

and division? >> i'm not so sure but somehow and some way his message arrested that movement toward goodness and openness. and people stopped respecting the worth and dignity of all of us. >> what about the history of our country, look at it in long stretch, going back to the civil war, before the civil war, slavery, 250 years of slavery, then 100 years of jim crow, 50 years of whatever you call this, improvements certainly. is there -- i used to think always battle between good and bad army, never clear who was going to wherein. always a battle. is that how it's going to be? force of going backwards against trying to make it better? >> i think they're going to make it better. forces of making it better will succeed. you have to have faith, believe, you have to have hope.

you cannot give up. i will not give up. i will not become bitter. as americans we must never, ever become bitter, hostile. we must never, ever hate. if not we'll lose it. we cannot afford to lose our country, our democracy. >> let's get to motive. if you look at the times of when the whites in the south had defeated reconstruction completely, and grabbed control of all political power, the conservative democrats. lynchings and worst of the hatred back then, was that a systematic effort to keep the black person down through fear? or fear of the black person? what led people to commit deadly acts? >> i think people had been taught that a certain segment of

the population didn't belong in the same place. so you had a sign saying white and colored. white men, colored men, white women, colored women. but we got over that. and today in many parts of the south people are living in peace and harmony with each other. they lay down the burden of race. and i think today it's minority of people, people come in and try to teach people and urge people to go back. but we've come too far, made too much progress, and we're not going back, we're going forward. and we need leaders to help point the way to the future. >> again we have the president, and the president has used all kinds of code language, sometimes not code language. how do you get that to stop? how does anybody correct this president? besides defeating him and

getting him out of office. >> we have to go out and vote as you stated like we've never voted before. but in the meantime good people must stand up, speak up, speak out. my philosophy is very simple, when you see something that's not right, not fair, not just, do something. you cannot afford to be quiet. >> have you in your years in congress, going back to the '80s, have you ever come across the hate group threats? did they come after you? these groups. >> since i've been in congress we've received calls, some messages. but for the most part the people have been very good to me. they've been very good to me. when i travel all across america, all across the south, people come and say thank you for helping, thank you for what you did for your country.

even on capitol hill, people come and see me, doesn't matter whether black or hispanic, white, native american, they always say thank you. and sometimes people break down and cry. and i say please don't cry. people say i'm going to pass out. once a lady came, i said please don't pass out, i'm not a doctor. >> you're such a man of history. say this to your face but i don't know anybody else who has been through the sit-ins and freedom riders and being there on edwin pettis bridge and getting beaten almost to death and to be with bobby kennedy in indianapolis that night having to talk about him being shot to crowd of african-americans.

you've been there. >> i've seen unbelievable changes. >> you're optimistic? >> optimistic, hopeful. we'll get through this, this will be behind us. we'll regain our country and our place in the world. >> what would you say now to a person watching right now who is thinking -- angry about ethic change, immigration, black opportunity, a white person just profoundly lonely and miserable in their lives for some reason, thinking of joining one of these hate groups because it's some sort of fraternity they'll be part of? that's apparently what happens. >> my brother, my sister, hate is not the way. the way of love is a much better way. love everybody. never, ever hate.

love yourself, love your fellow human being. we're all human. we must love each other. >> more of interview with congressman lewis in a moment. number of hate groups in america now more than 1,000, list is growing. how today's toxic pelt political rhetoric and internet is fuelling that hate. former white nationalist and why she turned her back on it. more ahead on "hardball." oh! oh!

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being beaten by policemen, seeing our people locked up in jail over and over again, and then you holler be patient. how long can we be patient? we want our freedom and we want it now. >> welcome back to "hardball," john lewis at age 23, youngest speaker at march on washington in 1963. bit of the hatred that lewis and others endured then is now rearing its head. asked congressman lewis to look to the future and what he hopes to hear from the 2020 presidential candidates. >> this debate should be about bringing the country together and building one america. one house where we live in peace with each other, where we help each other out, where no one is left out, left behind because of their race or their class.

we all must move up together. >> do you think the african-american community is going to play a larger than in the past role in this election? that's what i hear from everybody, political pundits say watch the african-american woman, that voting group is the profound fulcrum, going to turn this lechlkelection. you know the political vote, is this a time when african-american vote is so powerful we're going to have vote that does that? >> i believe the african-american voter are going to decide the election. people are going to get out and vote like we never voted before. they're not going to stay home. they know everything is on the line. >> more so than in '16? >> they understood that some people didn't get out, some

people stayed home. look what happened. all of the places i've been traveling too during the past few days, going to colleges and universities, commencements, people have said we're going to vote. and i believe that. whether in delta of mississippi, belt of indiana, georgia, new york, detroit, buffalo, people are going to get out and vote. i believe it. >> what is it about the haters that -- i just saw "amazing grace," wonderful documentary about aretha franklin, one of her early concerts. done in room with a lot of african-american singers and church people. and seems like the bad guys shoot people in churches. they always claim to be christians but go out to kill people, go get them in church.

happened in charleston, synagogue out west, all during the '60s in montgomery and places like that. what is it about killing people at church where they're most devotional? >> i don't quite understand it. during the height of the movement in the south churches were bombed, burned. four little girls. >> four little girls, yeah. >> in birmingham. churches is a gathering place where people come to serve and to celebrate their feeling, their faith. and lost so many people in church, in synagogue, in a mosque. i don't quite understand it. i wish i did. >> let's talk about god and your beliefs. you started out wanting to be a reverend, is god still rooting for this country?

>> i believe god almighty is still pulling for us. you have to believe it. you have to feel it. somehow and some way god is pulling for us. we pray, we ask him to bless us, we ask him to redeem the soul of america, dr. king did. before we would march we prayed. before we attempted to walk from selma to montgomery, we knelt. one guy, ambassador andrew young working with dr. king at the time, only person standing, all 600 of us on our knees, say amen, stood, lined up, start marching. >> that was a day. you're 79. >> i'm 79. >> what does a 79-year-old john

lewis know about having wisdom that young guy leading sncc, student nonviolent coordinating committee at the vanguard of everything happening in the '60s, what do you know now that you didn't then? >> i think i know now much more than i knew then how to be persistent. and never give up. i remember standing with president kennedy when i were 23, and talking with him, vice president lyndon johnson. i met dr. king when i was 18, rosa parks when i was 17, all these people made me a better person, a stronger person. >> it's an honor to come in here to this memorial of what you've done, pictures on the wall themselves blow me away, especially getting medal of

freedom from president obama, what a moment for you sir, for the country. thanking for your time. happy memorial today, even talking about rough stuff. >> happy memorial day. thank. coming up, hate groups indock indoctrinating young americans. "hardball" special report. ricans "hardball" special report. -maid? uh, i'm not the... -♪ is she an alien, is she a spy? ♪ ♪ she's always here, someone tell us why ♪ -♪ why, oh, why -♪ she's not the maid we wanted ♪ -because i'm not the maid! -♪ but she's the maid we got -again, i'm not the maid. i protect your home and auto. -hey, campbells. who's your new maid? our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy! whoo-hoo! great-tasting ensure. with nine grams of protein and twenty-six vitamins and minerals.

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rodney: when i think about what makes quality public education, i think about the important people in students' lives that's beyond the classroom. marisa: the needs that students have for emotional counseling are not being met. rosanne: students need art and music. more creative kids tend to be better problem solvers. angelia: one of the things that we're out there marching for is more counselors and more nurses. roxana: when we have those resources and that support, we're able to give students the education that they need. rodney: because we know quality public schools... roxana: make a better california... marisa: for all of us. what are people learning how to fire automatic weapons doing that for if they're not preparing for armed race war. >> that is what they're preparing for. their end game is simply pure,

unadulterated destruction. it is a death cult. >> are we going to see the day they're walking into school, mall, government building and opening fire on everybody? >> if they are, they're not going to tell anyone about it until it happens. >> welcome back to "hardball," to special report, chilling scene from msnbc documentary, "breaking hate," describing one of the 1,000 hate groups active in the united states. "new york times" notes that number of hate groups pushed to record high by toxic combination of political polarization, anti-immigrant and propaganda online. extremists thrive on the dark web using fringe platforms to

inspire and recruit people. people who harbor extremist views can also obtain places of influence. now former white nationalist katie mccue wrote for conservative media outlets, turned a blind eye to or were genuinely ignorant of the fact that one of the young stars -- joined by writer. former undercover fbi agent who infiltrated the klu klux klan, and rabbi, organization standing up for human rights. and our friend, editor of theroot.com. you're all newcomers but jason, this is not pleasant conversation but a true story.

>> young conservative reporter worked for "the daily caller" and "brietbart," at the same time getting involved with alt-right activist in washington, d.c., and white nationalists. >> all white dangerous groups or just right-wing media? >> happened at the same time. social groups leading here into white nationalism at the same time as getting jobs at right-wing media outlets. >> you've been in those groups, what is it like? >> i think it's really important to understand there's a difference between the violent fringe and ideological side of the movement. what draws people in a lot of time is just deviance. for the violent fringe, a lot of time it's people who enjoy being violent, here's a group that

gives them a justification for violent actions and treats them as hero. ideological side it's to be provocative a lot of times. becomes like a drug. people push further and further the limits of what society accepts because they want to draw attention to themselves and this is clearly a way you can draw that attention. >> what draws the line between the violent and nonviolent? >> it's different in all cases. sometimes it's tactical. there was klu klux klan leader louis bean who wrote a strategy, leaderless existence, for the intellectual side had to separate itself from violent groups to retain accountability.

violence is actually counterproductive to their spreading a positive message about their beliefs. >> recent deadly attacks at synagogues in pittsburgh and poway, california, anti-semitic assaults in the u.s. more than doubled in 2018, only six springing from left-wing or islamic ideology, almost 1,800, right wing, antigovernment, other. rabbi, your sense of this on the victim end of this. >> helpful to understand what antism semetism is. it's hatred of jews. started based on the idea that christianity had to replace

judaism and therefore had to daft as something evil. then in late 19th century, racially based prejudice. even if jew converted to christianity, still considered nefarious to society. anti-semitism holds jews responsible for whatever you don't like in society. can be blamed both for marxism and capitalism. whichever side you're on, you think the jews are undermining society from the other direction. >> what about the recent synagogue violence? cycles to this? >> there are cycles. historically when there's anxiety, people look for someone to blame and jews are classic

scapegoats. many people fantasize of vision of white, christian american, looking to see who is stopping them from that vision. at the same time we have a president riling up fear of immigrants, fear of minorities, encouraging people who are already inclined to look for a natural enemy, and classic enemy is the jews. that's why language in charlottesville, jews will not replace us. that's classic. pittsburgh terrorist who suggested that jews were trying to undermine american society bringing in refugees. jewish community is accepting of refugees but he was accusing of plot against his ideal of

christian society. >> people go up to people in mosques, churches, synagogues, where people are most religious and committed to something better than themselves. not doing something bad but where they're at their best. >> it's not vigilantism, grabbing people committing a crime. but violence that strikes at heart of the community at large. makes you think if these good people can be in your sights, what will you do to me. part of the purpose of religious locations. something key here that one of the previous guests mentioned. idea there's a big difference between the intellectual right wing and violence is disingenuous, they're connected together. >> let's talk to michael about that. what's the argument? >> you can't achieve white nationalism in america without

violence, anyone who says you can is a liar. >> what is your clinical estimation of the lack of distinction? >> you just have to understand the numbers. tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people hold racist ideas. number committing racist violence is very low and very low portion of the people committing violence in our society. attacks inspired by ideology, dwarfed by number of spree shooters and other attackers. we have to understand how the groups organize in a way -- because you -- what you need to do to address hate spread through whatever methods is different from what you have to do to reduce the amount of violence in our society. two separate things that require separate responses.

>> rosie, back to you. write about emergence of the alt-right in 2016, all about smooth over public image, becoming approachable, more mainstream. alt-right term represents this effort. who came up with the term? enemy or friend of the group? >> white nationalist leader richard spencer has taken credit for inventing that term. as i wrote, there was attempt to rebrand white nationalism, make it more respectable seeming and mainstream, call it the alt-right. picked up steam last few years. more on the ideological side of the division just being talked about between the groups that carry out actual violence and groups providing ideological underpinning for racist ideas. >> reaction to the alt-right? >> as rosie said, larger

movement is spreading racist ideas, smaller number will take the ideas to extreme to carry out violence but whole movement is terrifying. racist, anti-immigrant, an anti-semitic and anti-muslim ideas. it's not surprising some people take the hateful ideas off the internet and walk into houses of worship and attack. whether it's walking in synagogue in california or pittsburgh, arson in mosque in connecticut, or very recently past weekend attempted arson at synagogue in chicago. people have access to violent means going to move to natural extension of the hateful ideas to try to carry out violence. >> we're all staying together. up next, fighting back against

hate. what can we do? does the government need to do more? how balance with guaranteed right to free speech? back after this. his. line of cr because sometimes inner peace requires a little external soundproofing. or pnc total auto. a place online to easily find and finance the right car for you. and your passengers. or pnc home insight, to search for a new house within your budget. hopefully with a grass yard. pnc - make today the day. (driver) relax, it's just a bug. that's not a bug, that's not a bug! (burke) hit and drone. seen it, covered it. at farmers, we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪

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we have to reach these young people before they become radicalized. how we do that, i leave to greater minds. but ask you to think of my daughter and others who have died because of hate. >> mother of heather heyer, woman killed in protests in 2017. on capitol hill making plea to lawmakers that more needs to be to do to combat organized hate in the country. as legal experts tell nbc news that american law enforcement doesn't have the same tools for domestic terrorism as international terrorism. and some of the laws in place have been shut down, believe it or not, have budgets slashed shortly after this administration came into office, the trump administration. back with gray, jacobs, johnson

and german, what about law enforcement, experience with the fbi and how much on their toes were they watching these groups? >> not very much. episodic. a case agent in the field identified suspects could often get cases, but no real national strategy, and still isn't. today the u.s. government doesn't know how many white supremacist murders are committed every year because they don't collect the data and bifurcate domestic terrorism into domestic terrorism and hate crimes arbitrarily. white supremacist kills someone and called a hate crime and drops down the priority. hate crimes also by justice

department policy are deferred to state and local agencies who don't have the tools and sometimes the interest in addressing those crimes. only 12% of police departments across the country report hate crimes to the federal government. don't know what is happening other 88% of the country. >> this is branding and practicality problem. talking how people can get involved. alt-right is forever 21 of neonazis. same thing with prettier name and better haircuts. but john mccain talked about this ten years ago, be more careful about people we're bringing in the military, seeing neonazi swastikas in baghdad. police departments all the time have people joining to train neo-nazi groups. there is not a concerted effort. obama administration tried to certain extent but unless

there's concerted effort to root people out, we won't stop the problem but be feeding people go into military or police departments and then go out and engage in acts of terror or train those who will. >> rosie, looking for pattern here, lonely, want to join a group. accepts them in, they can't get out. embraced. kids know each other, husbands know each other, wives, part of group you can't step away from. >> real phenomenon here, exploit a sense of is disaffection, loneliness and alienation on the part of people susceptible to the ideas. >> lot of lonely people in the world. and angry. >> not to excuse anyone who gets involved in extremist group, that is to say there is

alienation that plays into group's ability to cohere and keep going. >> this sounds primitive but anti-semitism, there is a classic bad life and they want to blame somebody? you talk about scapegoating? >> i'm not a psychologist. i won't talk about what kind of person might become an anti-semite. but it is in the air. just like every other kind of prejudice. and there are people who are attracted to it. particularly when we have the president, for example, effectively dog whistling to anti-semites. >> how does he do it? >> for example, we had the very last commercial of the trump campaign where you saw it flash to the screen, three prominent jews. with language about those who pull the levers of power. or global power structures. those are classic anti-semitic

language. he didn't have to say these are jews. the anti-semites got it. they understood that he was playing into this conspiracy that they are in the background controlling what is happening in the u.s. pulling the strings on people like hillary clinton and others. so he doesn't have to explicitly say that he doesn't like jews. he can use all sorts of language, talk about anti-semitism like did he in his state of the union address. but at the same time he's making it clear to white nationalists that he's encouraging them and he's on their side. >> to that point, identified by a self-identified white supremacists in march of this year, president trump was asked if he believes white nationalism is a rising threat. here is his response. >> do you see today white nationalism as rising threat around the world?

>> i don't really. i think it is a small group of people that have serious problems, i guess. >> what did he mean by that? i think it is always about holding together this 40% plus coalition that goes all the way to the fringe. and he can't waste a few on the far end. that's how i think about it. and there are a few over there. >> remember, this is the guy who said -- >> i'm not sure about that. >> they said ten, 12 years ago that david duke was a fool. then a couple months ago. i'm a nationalist. he got on tv. >> but he said i've never heard of him. >> at one point. it is not about electoral power. bits emotional leadership. providing a certain climbed of white people and blame them. and there are lots of people complicit on this.

your thoughts about the president's role if you see one. sf right. i think we like to imagine that this anti-semitism and racism is some fringe part of our culture. but it is actually foundational to the development of our country, right? we're now calling it extreme and it notified european colonialism. genocide of indigenous people. it is only recently that these ideas have been pushed to the margin since the civil rights movement. it was the 1970s that george wallace was still running for national office. so while these ideas have been somewhat pushed to the margins, they still animate a lot of our u.s. policies. our immigration policy, our

foreign policy. it is certainly our criminal justice policies. in trying to figure out how to correct this. one of the worst is when people in authority give oxygen to this. the dangerous violent element of this sees it as a green light. and particularly with what we saw as a green light with the far right rallies that were allowed to become vile. and most of the people who committed violent walked away without any charges. that allows them on organize and recruit and develop more aggressive planning that will be hard to put back in the bottle at any point. so we have to understand how these ideas work with actual national policy. what the governments do is often much more dangerous and deadly. >> okay. thank you so much. thank you. up next, my final thoughts

on this memorial day. you're watching "hardball." you'. what?! i'm here to steal your car because, well, that's my job. what? what?? what?! (laughing) what?? what?! what?! [crash] what?! haha, it happens. and if you've got cut-rate car insurance, paying for this could feel like getting robbed twice. so get allstate... and be better protected from mayhem... like me. ♪

on this memorial day we've reminded ourselves of our best and our worst. we've been honored by our guest, a hero of the 20th century's civil rights movement. he was an everman of that movement. they poured cleansing powder down his back riding with the freedom ride here's were so violently attacked along the way. speaking alongside dr. martin luther king at the march on washington and leading the march from selma to montgomery for which he was beaten. an example of kurnlg and wisdom. i am so glad we could have him in our show. and pointing to the dangerous lexts society. those who make heroes like this

so vital. for without our heroes, we might find ourselves vulnerable to our villains because they, too, are part of the american scene on this memorial day of the year 2019. and that's "hardball" for now. all in with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in" -- >> a lot of americans are extremely distrutful of our government. there's a lot of work the restore that trust. >> we need leader smip will start talking about our common bonds, our common pain and return us to a common purpose. >> from criticism of the president's domestic agenda -- >> it is really hard to understand trump's logic or the way he works. >> calls to impeachment for obstruction of justice. >> there is no political convenience exception to the constitution of the united states of america. >> we talk to some of the front-runners for t