alex witt. i will see you in a few minutes this hour. time for up with david gura with the latest on the shooting. >> today is virginia beach's darkest hour, a senseless crime happened, and imposed tremendous grief upon the people of virginia beach, the commonwealth, and this country. >> good morning, i am david gura live in virginia beach where 12 people were killed in a mass shooting friday. any minute now, virginia beach police are expected to give an update on the latest on that attack. we'll bring that to you live. police say the suspect was shot dead after he opened fire in a public works building a few feet behind where i am standing this morning. at least four people were wounded, including a police officer. nbc correspondent hans nichols is outside virginia beach general hospital and joins us with the latest details on conditions of the victims. again, we expect to learn more about them during the course of

the news conference. hans, we heard about an extended gunbattle that took place in the public works building. what can you tell us about the victims in the hospital? >> reporter: well, there are four surviving patients we know of. three of them in critical condition, one in fair condition, stable condition, three of them are here. we know, david, one died on the way to the hospital, and two deceased overnight. at least that's what the hospital announced. they're not providing information on the deceased or patients, pending notification of family member that pertains to age, gender, and what condition they're in, what surgeries they had, where they are now. i know we're going to get a briefing at 8:00 a.m. shortly after, hospital officials are supposed to give an update, then we'll be able to give you the latest on how the patients are doing. david? >> reporter: this is part of the system in virginia beach, largest city in the commonwealth of virginia.

not every victim was brought to that hospital. what can you tell us about how law enforcement brought victims to where they did. >> reporter: this is a level three trauma hospital. we should know, even though level one is a lower level, that patient is in critical condition. of three patients here, two are in critical, and one in stable condition. there had been some reports people were self reporting. we still don't know of four that are still patients, which one is the police officer. the police officer's life was saved because he was wearing that bulletproof vest, and indications from authorities initially were that his life wasn't in danger, he appeared to be in stable condition. among things to figure out is the condition of the police officer and what he has to say

about his harrowing, heroic experience. >> hans nichols at the hospital in virginia beach. we expect to learn more about the victims in the course of the press conference, scheduled to start any minute. my thanks to you, hans. we'll check in in a moment. shawn henry is msnbc's security analyst. he joins me now. help us understand what's happening when it comes to the investigation? this is a local matter, that expanded greatly, fbi and department of homeland security are involved. take us behind the scenes, give us a sense of what will be happening over the course of the next few days. >> thanks, david. i think right now there are a lot of questions, why did this happen, how did it happen, who is this shooter, and what was the motivation here. i think investigators, you've got virginia city police there, virginia beach police there on sight, you have state police, the fbi is working, providing

some capabilities. throughout this investigation they're collecting intelligence to try to determine the cause. they're going to be looking through this person's social media. they're going to be looking at the opportunity to exploit documentation that he may have had on his computer system. they'll be looking for papers through his house, they executed a search warrant there, i saw this morning in media reporting pulling the vehicle away, looking to see if there's documentation inside the vehicle, any forensic evidence. they'll be talking to neighbors, co-workers for statements he made. what the actual cause was, the mayor of the police department there said this was a disgruntled employee. if that is in fact the case, what was leading up to that. if that's not the case, if he was not a disgruntled employee, is there somebody else that may

have been involved with him? this shooter planned for this. you talk about extended magazines, he had a suppression device or silencer, clearly appears he was ready for a shootout as he is going through firing, trying to keep his movements concealed, and a long, drawn out gunbattle he had. you want to make some determination what went into the planning process. so this is going to evolve in the coming days and weeks as investigators pull on the thread, trying to make that determination, what was this shooter's motivation, david. >> shawn henry, i am curious how you watch this, given your professional background. heard from the police chief late last night talking about heroism of the officers, four police showed up and a larger team came, you mentioned a long gunbattle between the suspected gun and police officers. how do you watch it unfold, what are you thinking in real time as you think of what was happening

in real time? >> when i put myself in the position of the police officers, in the past decade or two, there have been tremendous changes in tactics employed by law enforcement when we talk about a shooter. traditionally, law enforcement when there's an issue there executing a search warrant or arrest warrant, when there's a gunman inside a building, there's a deliberate slow clearing of the facility because you want to protect the officers' lives. in a case like this where you've got an active shooter, you've got victims inside, you've got many employees unaware of what's happening. the key is to get to the shooter as quickly as possible to protect and save lives of victims. in those cases, these police officers are putting their own lives in jeopardy. it is not a slow, deliberate clear, they're not using shields, they're not moving methodical room to room, quite the opposite. they're going past doors, going

past corridors, staircases that typically you would be very, very slow in ensuring there's nobody hiding in those areas. they're going towards shooting, the primary objective is to neutralize the threat to save lives. so when i think about the law enforcement officers, all of the training that goes into this, i've got to tell you, david, when i was with the fbi in washington, d.c., we trained with the park police, with washington metropolitan police, with the capital police. the police departments and agencies are very well integrated. when there's a situation like this, there's a plan to back each other up and provide support, provide logistics, help alleviate the situation. to see the police officers in this case putting their lives at risk to get to the shooter, to neutralize that threat to save lives, that's a result of effective long term training, david. >> shawn henry with us in new york. our counterterrorism analyst is waiting for the press conference

to start in a few minutes in virginia beach. we heard from the police chief last night and the mayor as well. shawn, you mentioned how you used to work with the fbi and other law enforcement. help us understand the degree to which that has gotten better, the way law enforcement and different branches work together. >> that's a great point. i think it started when you think about post 9/11 and terrorism and the focus on jihadists and focus on some of these type of devastating attacks, where law enforcement agencies started to work in a more collaborative way. i think each agency has access to different types of intelligence, access to different capabilities, and honestly, the objective of all law enforcement is to protect the innocence civilians, innocent communities, and the best way to do that is to work in a collaborative way. people training together, sharing information together,

sharing resources and assets so that when you take the totality of all of that, you're in a stronger position to identify issues in advance of them becoming catastrophic, and if there's an issue, to respond in a coordinated fashion to be most effective to mitigate that threat. i think there's been some great advancements in the last two decades in law enforcement working together in that type of fashion. it certainly is what the american public expects and it's what law enforcement can do in a way to be most effective and successful. >> shawn, grateful for your perspective. you're staying with us until this press conference gets under way. curious what you're listening for, the police chief will give an update on the investigation. what are you listening for in the upcoming press conference? >> i think that this incident is just about 14 or 16 hours old.

most of us were sleeping, police were working around the clock, executing search warrants, doing extensive interviews, doing forensic analysis, reviewing cameras, video footage that might have been inside that building. there's a lot that happened in the past dozen hours that the police chief will come forward and try to help solve some of the missing pieces of the puzzle. again, what was the motivation, were there other actors, what was the planning that went into this in advance. probably providing more information on who the shooter is, what his background was, those sorts of things. there really is over the last dozen hours or so a lot of investigation. police agencies are not sleeping. they're working 24 by 7 going forward to ensure they can resolve this in a way to ensure

that the citizens of virginia beach are safe. this is one shooter, one isolated incident. but also to answer many questions people have, david. >> shawn henry there. you see the podium in municipal complex where the shooting took place. expect to hear from police chief of virginia beach in a few moments time. hans nichols still with us at one of the hospitals, part of the centera health system. he is looking to see again, it strikes me followed this the last 18 hours, the police chief, deliberate not to name the suspect, says he will name him once and refer to him forever after as the suspect. you and i covered instances like this before regrettably, and this is different, the degree to which we wait for the names to come out, and the police chief saying we're not going to hear the name more than once. >> reporter: that is a little unique. in general we don't hear much

about victims until next of kin are notified. we're in virginia beach. and they have so many military families, a second fleet here, united states navy has air stations throughout. they know how to deal with puncture wounds. i am listening for condition of the three patients in critical condition. how did they fair the night, what is their prognosis, and also protocols and how to be sure this doesn't happen again. whenever something like this happens, david, there are things we learn on how to make the country safer, and there's always acts of heroism and sacrifice. we will find out who the heroes of the moment are, how they sacrificed, what they did, and some quick thinking that may

have led more lives to be saved because when you look at the situation, it could have been worse. a well armed gunman was up against victims. >> 45 caliber semi automatic. hans, help us understand what was happening at the hospital overnight. they have been tight lipped about what was going on there. describe the scene at the hospital. you mention a level three trauma hospital. >> we know that one patient died on the way to the hospital, and yesterday evening two patients that were praut here were pronounced dead, so they couldn't save everyone. there are three patients here, one at another one. there are reports that some individuals self reported, basically thought they had some sort of wound, brought themselves to the hospital. the initial report i believe was that 90 individuals sought help. i want to be clear, david, we

don't know if that's medical help or help, helping them find their way, helping them find family or friends that were involved. the initial 90 number doesn't necessarily indicate they were seeking medical help. the scene as we know it, this is a suburban hospital, they provide all kinds of services, have oncology department, radiology department, it is business as usual here. nothing out of the order here except for tv cameras. hospital officials might be in position to tell us the condition of the three that are here, and down the road, there's another hospital where we have one other patient. david? >> waiting for an update from local law enforcement, from the mayor of city of virginia beach as well, press conference scheduled at any moment. you see the podium on the left-hand side of the screen. ron allen is here with us, covering the story. ron, get us up to speed. what should we expect from the

press conference once it gets under way? >> reporter: we have been talking to a number of local officials and people who were employees, witness to this horrific situation, and we expect the mayor, city officials to reveal identities of the people murdered or massacred. they're not going to release the name or publicly focus on the name of the shooter. they have been calling him the suspect to focus names on the innocent people that were at the municipal building when all of this happened. we have been emphasizing it happened at 4:00 on a friday afternoon, people are preparing to leave for work. it is a very crowded, open

public space where there are offices where people come to pay parking tickets and get building permits. the shooter, the gunman was a long time employee who would have walked in and been recognized by many people that were there. another thing we learned is a lot of victims we believe were people who would have been very public. there are people in the community that will recognize that was the person they dealt with when they were dealing with this type of city business when they came to the municipal complex. i say that to suggest there's going to be a ripple effect throughout the community when it becomes known who the victims are. many people know already. 4:00 in the afternoon a gunman walks in, a long running gunbattle happens on three floors of the building behind me. city officials have been emphasizing the heroic work of the police department. they responded immediately. there were four officers, they

engaged the gunman and took him out and saved a lot of lives. a lot of people barricaded in their offices. a lot of people flood the building as i can determine perhaps hundreds of people in the building where it happened or in the immediate vicinity of things. a lot to learn in the press conference coming up, david. >> ron allen with me in virginia beach. coverage will continue in a moment. we are expecting a press conference at any moment with the chief of police for virginia beach. we'll bring you that as soon as it begins. as soon as it begins.

a press conference is starting at any moment. hans nichols, we were talking about the municipal complex, you were speaking to the rich military heritage of this place. get us up to speed where we are. help situate us. >> reporter: we're in southeast virginia, three hours away from washington, d.c. but in a lot of ways, the center of the united states navy on the east coast. second fleet is there. they'll bring aircraft carriers up river, retrofit them, redo the entire inner hulls. there are a lot of well paying jobs here, a lot of retired military on basically two salaries, drawing a pension and take expertise and do something

else, and a lot of vacation homes here. this is a vacation area for the washington, d.c. area. so it is fairly prosperous. there's some crime. we have shootings and stabbings. that's why they have a level three trauma center. quickly on the kinds of wounds we're expecting, a .45 caliber is a big caliber. there's muzzle speed, but doesn't have a lot of ability to do that much damage the further away you are from the muzzle. when you are hit, and you are hit with a bullet of that caliber, it can cause a great deal of internal damage. basically we don't know what ballistics were used, but it can cause a lot of issues inside your body, exploding sometimes, ricocheting throughout, as opposed to smaller caliber bullets that sometimes pass through. that gives indication of challenges and struggles, the surgical team here at this hospital is dealing with when

they have three patients. again here, they have two in critical and one in fair condition which basically means stable. david? >> hans nichols, important point you bring up. federal law enforcement official telling colleagues at nbc news it was a .45 caliber pistol, semi automatic with extended magazines. i want to go to shawn henry to comment on what he was saying. approaching from a medical perspective, talking about wounds and injuries that might have been treated over the course of tonight. but what does that tell you as you listen to the type of weapon used. >> the .45 caliber is a devastating round. it is heavy. one thing with that round, typically the magazines, because the round is so much bigger that the magazine holds less capacity. in this case what we heard from law enforcement authorities is that there were extended magazines. typically in a 45 you might have 8 rounds inside the weapon, and

with an with an extended magazine, you could have more rounds. they come in various sizes. what we haven't heard and might hear during the presser, whether there was any long gun there. many active shooter, some school shootings we have seen, long guns, ar 15 and something of that nature. we haven't heard about that here. we heard about the happened gun with extended magazine and presser, that will be interesting to hear on the other side of the press conference, david. >> to get more forensic detail, we haven't heard about that yet. the only weapon we heard about is the .45 we were talking about. hanl hans, we heard from ron it is a tight knit community within a large one, this is the largest city in the commonwealth. richmond is the capital, but this is largest, twofold, 75 miles southeast of the capital of virginia. help us understand the close knittedness of the place, what ron was speaking of a few

minutes ago. >> the military leads to the close knit aspect of the community. many families go on deployments, families that are home, sailors go on deployments, marines as well. the unit left at home bonds together. so there's a great deal of connectivity here throughout generations and families, a lot of churches in this part of the country. not necessarily a red or blue part of the country. in the past, the congressional district went from a republican district to a democratic district. i wouldn't characterize it on the political spectrum. it is low level here, some flooding, a lot of rains coming in, james river as well, so there are concerns of global warming, what it will do to sea levels and the navy. in general, a historic part of the country. jamestown just up the street, yorktown, they care about their history here. but there has been explosive growth in this part of the country.

part has to do with the military, part has to do with the economy in virginia and diversifying. yes, this is a port town, a naval town, but it is much more than that, and many generations have been here for some time, david? >> you see that as you drive here, this is in princess anne, part of virginia beach, pass through williamsburg as well. glen kirshner is with us. glen, we were talking about the degree to which local, state, federal law enforcement work together. what are you listening for as the press conference gets under way, waiting to hear from the chief of police and others at the municipal complex where i am standing. >> david, now becomes the sad aftermath that will involve among other things law enforcement officers and agents getting emergency search warrants for the gunman's home

and any other properties, any storage facilities. they'll certainly get search warrants to do forensic searches of his computer, any electronic devices, his cell phone. they'll scour social media to figure out what prompted him to try to figure out if there could be anybody else complicit. it sounds like he was a lone gunman, but one of the things we do and did in the aftermath of the navy shooting in 2013 was to see if there was anybody else that might have been involved in this in any way. again, it doesn't appear given the reporting thus far that anybody else was culpably involved, but something that law enforcement is keenly interested in. >> you look and see folks filing in the room where the press conference is supposed to take place, members of city council, let's listen to that press conference in virginia beach on that shooting that occurred

yesterday. >> good morning. my name is dave hanson, city manager of virginia beach. i appreciate being joined by all of the media that have traveled far and wide to support us. i also want to acknowledge all of my elected officials that are here with me up front as we share information with you today. 16 hours ago the lives of 12 people were cut short by a senseless, incomprehensible act of violence. overnight our chaplains, our

human services, and our family assistance staff and teams completed the most difficult task anyone will ever have to do and that is notifying the next of kin. so today we all grieve. this morning i have the responsibility to inform friends, co-workers, and the public of those who lost their lives yesterday. all but one of the 12 victims were employees of the city of virginia beach. i have worked with most of them we want you to know who they were so in days and weeks to come, you will learn what they meant to all of us and their

families, to their friends and to their co-workers. they leave a void we will never be able to fill. lokitac. brown, works in public works over four and a half years, is a right of way agent. and she's a rest dent of chesapeake, virginia. tara welch gallagher, works in public works over six years and serves as an engineer and is a resident of virginia beach. mary lou ease gail, serves as a right of way agent, is a resident of virginia beach.

alexander mckale gussef worked for over nine years in public works and is a right of way agent and resident of virginia beach. katherine a. nixon, serves in public utilities over ten years as an engineer and as a resident of virginia beach. richard h. nettleman. worked in public utilities over 28 years, served as an engineer, served with me as lieutenant in germany, and was a resident of norfolk. christopher kelly rap who served in public works for just 11 months as an engineer and is a citizen of pal a tan.

ryan keith cox who served in public utilities for over 12 and a half years, and is an account clerk and resident of virginia beach. joshua a. hardy who served in public utilities for four and a half years as an engineering technician, and as resident of virginia beach. michelle missy langer who served in public utilities for 12 years as an administrative assistant and as a resident of virginia beach. robert bobby williams who served in public utilities over 41 years as a special projects coordinator and as resident of chesapeake. herbert bert snelling who was a contractor trying to fill a

permit and is a resident of virginia beach. so as we stop here, take a pause, i'm going to ask the chief of police to come forth and talk about that 13th person. chief? >> an update to where we are on the investigative process. first of all, the investigators and detectives, forensic technicians worked through the night, processing the scene, and with dignity and respect to removing all of the victims in this particular case. medical examiner's office now will take over their part of the investigation and that should take the next 48 hours while they work through it, they're bringing in additional resources

from richmond. during the investigative process we were assisted by the federal bureau of investigation, 40 members of the forensic taskforce from quantico and other places in virginia to assist in this particular case. this is a large scale crime scene. it's a horrific crime scene. please understand it takes not only physical, emotional, and psychological toll on everyone who spent the night inside that particular building. atf is also assisting us, we recovered additional weapons at the scene. i am not at liberty to tell what the weapons are at this time. we recovered additional weapons at the suspect's home. the suspect, this will be the only time we will announce his name, is dewayne craddock. he was an engineer with public utilities, he was employed with

that department for approximately 15 years. the suspect's family has also been notified. victims, employees, any witnesses that wish to give additional information, there's a phone line set up by the federal bureau of investigation. 1-800-call-fbi. we also have a large scale number of counselors available for the city employees, all city employees who are touched by this event as well as citizens and family members that may also be effected by this particular event. we were able to review some film last night, review some film of the officers who responded into the building. officers checked every room on every floor, every closet, under

every desk, escorted a large number of city employees out of the building. remember, they're escorting them out of the building while victims are still in the building. i want you to know those officers worked with compassion, they worked with caring, they worked with professionalism in assisting our brothers and sisters that work for the city. >> thanks, chief. we're very thankful for outpouring of support received from the people in the community, the region, and of course the country. we're especially grateful for the assistance that we are receiving from our sister cities here in hampton roads, from state agencies, and from federal offices. the desire to help is strong and

we appreciate it more than you can say. we have posted on our vbgov website an opportunity for those that wish to volunteer to sign up, because we had an outpouring of volunteers to serve as chaplains, bring comfort dogs, provide supplies. now we have outpouring to donate to families now working towards employ -- we will move our attention for the remainder of today to assign family liaison officers to support those families that have been stricken by this horrible event.

we are going to wrap our arms around those that serve with us here in virginia beach and we are going to make sure that their families, their loved ones are taken care of and are supporteded and that we guide them through the days and weeks ahead. and at the same time, as the chief said, we have a significant number of employees that have been mentally and physically affected by what they went through yesterday and the vision and the images that they had to experience inside r inside one of our major office buildings here in the municipal office center. i want to thank you all for being here today. i want to thank all of my elected officials for standing strong with us. we are prepared to answer your questions. >> is there anything you can tell us about the possible -- >> chief. >> possible motive of the

suspect, no, sir, i can't at this particular time. again, we are doing an in-depth investigation preincident as well as the incident. >> chief, has the suspect tlenttlen tlented -- threatened employees in the past? >> can you tell us his employment status? >> he was still employed. he had a security pass, like all employees had, and he was authorized to enter the building. >> and please keep in mind, we live in a free, open society. citizens enter that building at all times. citizens enter all government buildings except for schools and courts where there's a different level of security. >> do you get any indication he had a specific person that he wanted to target, a person or persons? >> i do not have that at this

time. again, as we go further into the investigation, we may have additional information on that. whether it's an individual or not, we do have a large scale number of victims that were killed by the suspect. >> chief, can you comment on all of the victims? were most of them concentrated to one office, perhaps the office that he worked in? i know yesterday they said victims were found on all three floors. were the majority or a group of them found in one place? >> victims were throughout the building, except for the basement, so no, sir, it wasn't just one particular area. it could be that's what he was looking for, but once he engaged in this activity, it just continued throughout the building. >> was there anyone killed in the office he worked in? >> i have not had the specific information on that right now. >> and did he say anything at all what they heard while the

shots were being fired or before he was hit by police? >> no, they didn't have any engagement with him verbally. once they identified him, he identified them, he immediately opened fire. we immediately returned the fire. again, i want everyone to know that this is a long-term -- lack of my other term -- running gun battle with this individual. this is not what is t traditionally a police-involved shooting. this was a long-term, large gun fight. >> chief, were -- on monday? >> i'm sorry? >> where was the -- on monday morning? >> we are working through that. building two will be closed. we are going to have to relocate some of our major services that the public utilities provided. they, of course, oversee our city services and so we have to

re-establish some financial connectivity for bill paying, etcetera. we're in the process with the i.t. department relocating. but that building is going to take a little bit of time to reopen. we are looking at what level of service the government will provide to our citizens on monday and will be making those announcements today and tomorrow, so stay informed. >> is there any incidents in the suspect's personnel file over the last 15 years that jump out at you? >> i'm not going to comment on hr issues at this time. >> you don't know of any prior criminal background on him? >> i'm not going to make that comment. >> was he prior active military? >> i'm not going to comment on that at this time. >> how secure was the building?

>> it's an open government building. citizens have the right to access open government buildings and employees have the right to access their work site. >> i'm going to follow up on that to say that the entry corridors and the service, the public service guests for those infrastructure departments are served by administrative assistants that work with the public, but all the inner -- all the accesses to the inner offices and conference rooms are secured and require this pass. as i've told you, he was in possession of a pass. >> public access to this building is -- but considering this gut punch of an attack, might you reassess security at this building? >> of course we will do an after action review and take appropriate actions should we determine that is a requirement.

>> i just want to follow up on the trauma, obviously. everyone is experiencing right now. what plan is there for assistance psychologically to all of the witnesses, victims and other employees? >> we have numerous agencies that provide both family assistance and employee assistance. we have an outpouring of support from our sister cities, from state agencies, from national nonprofit organizations that do this. we are bringing them to bear. we have just informed the families. you can imagine what they are going through. we are going to assign honor guard officers as family liaison officers so that they feel secure. they will be supported and assisted and, as i said, we're going to wrap our arms around our employees and their families

and we are going to remain vigilant, as well as committed to recovering from this incident. >> can you talk about the other victims, how many are still hospitalized? >> rights now, we're tracking four that are seriously injured. and i appreciate you asked that question and a lot of us have said a lot of prayers that we're able to pull them through. they are both at virginia beach and norfolk hospitals at this time. >> can you tell us, male, female employees? >> no, i'm not going to relate patient data at this point. >> was there anything in his personnel file -- was there any indication that there was a change in his work status that might have been a fact that would result in him being terminated? was he told he was going to be

disciplined, or something? >> i'm not going to make comment on that, sir. >> how long was this gun battle? >> it was -- i cannot tell you how many minutes or how many seconds. in police work, a long gun battle means multiple, multiple shots were being fired by the suspect. so this wasn't a one-shot incident. also yesterday, the question was asked about training. as recent as march 30th, we had a large scale training event which incorporated not only police, but our fire and ems and sheriff's department to be able to respond to a large scale event such as this. so that was only a few weeks prior to this particular incident. but i want you to know that while we train extensively, while we go over all of our protocols extensively, once you enter an environment such as this, everything changes. things change in a moment's notice, such as the gun battle

with the suspect. so we did train as recent as march 30th, but officers had to make instantaneous decisions at that moment in time on how to engage the suspect. they did it miraculously because, you're right, they did save other lives. >> is there -- >> i'm sorry? >> this officer, how is he doing? >> he's doing well. he was observed last night. it's the fact that he has a bullet proof vest that saved his life. >> what information has he given you that you might be able to share with us? >> i cannot share information that that officer gave. i do want you to know, remember, when we have a situation such as this and we begin to debrief our officers, there's numerous investigations that go simultaneously. then we also have administrative investigations. but we also have to keep in mind

that there's a time period in which we want our officers to be able to not instantaneously have to give a decision. this is the most emotional event anyone can ever go through. that's why we look out for the safety and welfare of our officers. >> you mentioned minutes. are we speaking more or less than 30 minutes? >> less than 30 minutes. yes, sir. >> how quickly did officers arrive? >> within -- from the first call that went out from building two, within minutes, they were in that building. >> you can't say how many minutes? >> i don't have that exact data with me, but two of the individuals were supervisors from our building, which is right across the street from building two. and immediately mobilized and on two of our canine officers were with them so they were in that building. within minutes of the first call. >> chief, you're shouldering all of this. how are you doing? >> i'm fine. we have a lot of support from our city.

my main concern, making sure that our manager is given all the information he needs to move forward. we have a large city. we will open up on monday. and even though we will grieve as a city, we will continue to move forward. and the other thing is, i want to make sure that all of our officers, our firefighters and ems personnel that were at that scene are taken care of at this moment. >> we are going to take one more question and we will anticipate another briefing later this afternoon. one more question, please. >> it is mentioned the two officers knowing this complex ran from the building. is that accurate? >> yes. >> talk about the proximity of the police department of what you said yesterday, around 400 workers in that building. how did the proximity of the police department to building two help you guys out? >> well, it's very close. it's within a couple hundred, maybe a hundred, 150 yards of each building. so those two supervisors and these are detective supervisors.

they were out of the building instantaneously. they had the proper identification equipment on them so they know they are the investigators with our department. once they made entry into building two, they had to immediately determine who was was a city worker escaping from the building and who could be the suspect. so there were a lot of different things happening simultaneously. unlike when you say something like this in a core graphed tv or movie special, this is a very different environment. you cannot replicate the intensity of an environment such as this. >> last question is do you anticipate people coming to this building, like you said, to do business in this building, do you anticipate they're going to be scared in the coming days and weeks? >> our job is to provide public safety is our residents, our

visitors, ow ur businesses and will ensure that they feel safe. as you heard, we can't answer a lot of these questions because investigation continues. we're still inside the first 24 hours. i can't speak enough about the courage that the police and forensics are showing in that building. with the carnage that exist necessary there and the work that they have done and i can tell you that they are performing admirably with great courage and that extends across all of the employees of virginia beach and those that are supporting us as we do the heavy lifting in these initial hours. we will keep you informed. our public affairs team is very

thorough and inclusive and we will announce our next press conference very shortly. so thank you very much for being here. >> let's listen a bit more to the chief of the police here. >> in all the questions i've received up to this point, i want to thank the members of the media for understanding that and for keeping their dignity and respect first and foremost in everything that you've been talking about. >> can we get copies of the photos of the victims? >> thank you very much. we appreciate you all being here. we anticipate having another press conference this afternoon, same place at 3:00. we will be available to speak with you about obtaining copies

of those. >> we'll take care of this right now and wrap up and then we'll deal with that. >> that was the public information officer there for the city of virginia beach notifying us there will be another press conference later giving us another update on the shooting that took place in virginia beach. we just heard from the city police and the manager stressing well through the night, investigators are working assessing the scene here with help from richmond, with help from the atf, as well. that news conference beginning pointedly with the city manager reading the list of those who were killed yesterday in that attack, noting remarkably how many of them are long careers of service with the public works department here in the city of virginia beach, how many of them were residents of this community for a long time, as well. the chief of police saying there is very little he can learn

about this investigation because it is still under way, but noting 40 members of the fbi's task force brought down here with quantico north of the investigation with the local police. he gave us an update on the victims under treatment at area hospitals, four of them under serious care. but first, we're joined by pete williams, our justice correspondent. pete, i want to get a ride from you of what you heard during that news conference. the police talking about other weapons have been found. the chief of police noting that other weapons have been discovered both here at the scene of that crime and in the suspect's house, as well. >> the police chief did formally name the man responsible for this attack, dwayne craddock. he was an engineer.

he had recently obtained his engineer's license and was part of the planning team in that office. but the police chief continues to say, as he did twice yesterday, that craddock was still employed at the time of the shooting, that he had not recently been fired. that leaves some ambiguity about whether he was told that he might be fired or was notified he could be laid off because we continue to hear from other employ r law enforcement people that they understand that he had been fired. but the chief did not in any way want to speculate about what the motive had been, whether craddock had ever threatened other employees, whether he had issues on the job that caused concern. so he said that as of the time of the shooting, he was still employed and significantly he still had a security badge that allowed him full access to the

building. because what the police chief said is folks walking into that building to do business with the city could only access public areas where they could deal with city employees and if they wanted to get access to the other parts of the building, they had to have a pass. victims of the shootings were on all three floors except for the basement. so if they any idea what the motive is at this point, they don't want to say anything about it. also, the chief indicated that this was the only time he would say the name of the suspect and this has been a recent trend among law enforcement people that they don't want to dwell on the gunman. they want the attention to be on the survivors and the victims. >> indeed, the police chooe and the city manager noting of those 12 victims, all but one were employees of the city here of virginia beach. pete, you were talking about

this building being an open building. it was a place of business for those who live here in virginia beach to get permits, to talk to city officials, and there's attention therein, it sounds like. and there was a question, as well, that caught my attention, a question about training. i'm going to quote here from the chief of police, there was training last march, and once you enter an environment like this, everything changes, stressing there were multi.shots fired. this was a real back and forth between the now-killed suspect and the police here in virginia beach. >> yes. and it's amazing given the machine of shots that were apparently fired. one of them said yesterday and repeated today, the officer that was struck, that his life was spared by his bullet proof vest. the chief indicated the gunman

predominantly used a .45 caliber handgun, a semi automatic pistol, meaning it fires each time you pull the trigger, and that the leethality of the attak was aided by the clips that go in the gun. you can get extended magazines that extend beyond the bottom of the weapon that will hold more rounds. and he's indicated that craddock had several of these. it just is an indication of how many rounds were fired. those are legal in virginia. the gun was legally purchased, law enforcement officials have said. the only question is whether craddock legally possessed the silencer on the weapon. those have on the be purchased from the law. >> pete williams helping us

cover this shooting. we just received an update from the chief of police and the city manager here in virginia beach. we expect another update from them a little bit later this afternoon. as we go to break here, an update on those four individuals still under treatment in hospital. the city manager saying they're seriously injured, under care. we'll check in with hans as our coverage of the shooting continues. of the shooting continues. hey, that baker lady's on tv again. she's not a baker. she wears that apron to sell insurance. nobody knows why. she's the progressive insurance lady. they cover pets if your owner gets into a car accident. covers us with what? you got me. [ scoffs ] she's an insurance lady. and i suppose this baker sells insurance, too? progressive protects your pets like you do. you can see "the secret life of pets 2" only in theaters. "the secret life of pets 2" "fine. no one leaves the table "fine! we'll sleep here."."

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moments ago, virginia beach city manager dave hanson calling this one of the most difficult things he ever had to do. >> we want you to know who they were so in the days and weeks to come, you will learn what they meant to all of us, to their families, to their friends and to their coworkers. they leave a void that we will never be able to fill. >> the police chief says the suspect opened fire over three floors of a building in the municipality complex behind me. at least four people were wounded, including a police officer. hans nichols, my colleague, has

been covering that side of the story for us. glenn kirscher is with us, as well, and special agent clint watts is with us, as well. hans, i want to start with you. this is a question that came up during the course of that news conference, how these individuals are doing. what are we hearing about their condition? >> well, we heard it was still serious, but there was an indication that they pulled through. they said that was with thoughts and prayers of the community. so that is an indication that those four -- remember, three of them were in critical, not all of them in this hospital. that's an indication that they may be doing better. we're still waiting for an official is status update from the hospital. they are not giving the names of the patients.

i think we'll learn more here about those 12 individuals, what they meant to the community, what their lives were like. but coming out of that press conference, the extent of the gun battle and how well armed the suspect was i think are two of the big takeaways in that there were multiple weapons found at the scent of the crime as well as the examples of what those weapons were and how many of them were legal and what training he had with those i think are key to the investigation going forward. hans nichols, you saw a list of those individuals. many of these individuals, 11 of the 12 had time with the public works department here in virginia beach. glenn, i want to go to you.

repeatedly over the course of that press conference, they talked about the psychic and emotional stress members of this community are under, how concerned they are by that. >> this tends to shake everybody to their core. and not just in virginia beach, but i think around the country. and our hearts go out to the victims and their families and the brave law enforcement officers who were apparently involved in what's been described as a running gun battle. and when you have shootings in public places in government buildings, it really does public everyone on edge because we, as citizens, are going to be in and out of these kind of public spaces and public buildings frequently. so, you know, we are an open society. we have to give access and that is as it should be to our government buildings, our public spaces. and i think what's going to happen now, david, is you're going to have this intense joint

law enforcement investigation. federal authorities are already involved, state and local authorities. what we have to do is see what can we learn from this to try to avoid these sorts of mass shootings, particularly in public buildings in the future. and what were the signs that perhaps were missed, if any, to try to prevent this kind of thing from happening again. >> and the city manager, the police chief declining at this point to speak to motive. at quantityco, where i know you've spent some time about 140, 150 miles from where i'm standing here and during the course of that press briefing, they're here and as well as the atf. that investigation going through the night as the city manager said. help us understand the role that the fbi in particular is playing at this point. >> yeah. one thing about this is that the fbi crime lap is so close,

they'll be able to find all the evidence that is there and then you have the atf there. they will be following up was this a legal weapons purchase, how was it conducted. and then they will be trying to look at were there any precursors or warnings or any assistance from any other individuals. i don't see any evidence of that at this time and maybe that will unfold, but the first thing they always want to do is make sure if it is a lone attacker, that it is truly a lone attacker, there's not a network of people in on the attack and possibility assisting with it. that's what they're initially trying to do. and i think it will be to look back both in terms of were there any warnings, are there any forensic signatures that we can see here that could have told us

where we might find leads and tips in terms of the future. and i think the other part will be the response. it's fascinating how they repeated that this was a significant gun battle happening over multiple floors. this response by law enforcement seemed to be quite quick, but this was a battle. so i'm sure looking over this crime scene, it will be how did the police respond, how did their training affect the response, were they able to respond quickly and it seems like they did a remarkable job, but what can we do better to respond to these scenes? so it will be a forensic effort, mostly this morning, but we'll be looking for lessons learned probably within the next couple of days. >> glenn, no doubt that stood out to you, as well. the degree to which the police talked about that battle. he was asked about how long in terms of minutes or seconds. he declined to comment on that. but he said this was an extended

battle between the officers and the gunman. >> and i couldn't help but be reminded of the navy yard shooting, a running gun battle at times throughout building 197 at the navy yard. multiple floors. the similarities are really erie and i think clint is exactly right. one of the things that hopefully will come out of this is we'll see how law enforcement responded. it sure seems by all accounts they responded extraordinarily well. but what can be learned in the next, unfortunately, workplace shooting, how can we improve our response? but, you know, it is all about, as clint said, first making sure nobody else was culpably involved with this gunman. that's a public safety issue. and then it's the after action, what can be learned to try to prevent this and try to spot these sorts of folks who might

engage in this workplace violence until the future. >> clint watts, here we have in stark relief this debate over the openness of government buildings. that was something that came up during in press conference, as well. the city manager saying this was a government building, it was a place where residents of this community would go to do business with the government. as that press conference went on, we learned the now dead suspect had a package to get into the building. he had fwree access in aree acc. this is a real issue across the country. >> yes. the difference oftentimes between the precursors of a terrorist attack versus a workplace or school place shooting. at a workplace shooting, the shooter doesn't have to do reconnaissance of the target. they know that place. which makes it much more difficult to preempt such an attack if you're trying to secure the facility. the other part about securing the facility is it's not just cost, it's also the

effectiveness of those agencies. if people can't access their municipal building, how can the city effectively deliver service? at the same time, it put an additional layer of costs. each one of these measure sess an additional layer of cost. so it becomes a compounding problem with each one of these incidents. how much more difficult it is, really, to detect it and try to get out in front of such an attack. it puts law enforcement almost always in the decisions of having to react rather than being preemptive. we see investigations on counter terrorism or preventing violence on government facilities. this is very difficult for a local law enforcement organization to do. it's very difficult for us to pick up on that frequency of these event that's are going to pop up and what is severe or not

when you have very low resources, really, to deal with it. clint, grateful for the perspective this morning. our coverage continues with the shooting that took place here in virginia beach yesterday. just ahead, alex witt with the latest news coming out of washington, d.c. i'll be giving the updates on what is happening here throughout the hour. here throughout the hour. aww.

you never know what life is going to throw at you. [ whimpering ] and from this point on. nothing is going to be the same.

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new developments in the case of mike flynn, the justice department now defying a judge's order to release transcripts of flynn's conversations with russia's former ambassador. this along the heals of attorney general bill barr criticizeding special counsel bob mueller. let's take a listen. >> i personally felt he could have reached a decision. the opinion says you can't indict a president while he's in office, but he could have reached a decision as to whether it was criminal activity. >> under long standing department policy, a president cannot be charged with a federal crime while he is in office. >> mueller this week contradicting the president who continues to claim total

exoneration. >> it's high crimes and misdemeanors. there was no high crime and no misdemeanor. >> if we had had confidence the president did not commit a crime, we would have said so. >> with us this morning, francesco chambers. matthew miller, usa today washington bureau chief susan page and steve inskeep. matt, do you first, what we just heard, how is barr correct if mueller is correct? how can barr say he could have reached a conclusion on indictment and mueller saying, no, actually, we can't indict a sitting president. were mueller to have done that and were he to have found the president was guilty, what is

the justice department supposed to do, go oh, he's guilty but there's nothing we can do about it? >> i suspect that what you would have seen the attorney general do is overrule the special counsel. we know the evidence didn't support that, at least that's what he came out and said. and that is the exact reason why mueller found he shouldn't make that accusation. look, i think the attorney general has been misleading at times by omission. and he's intellectually dishonest. he didn't grapple with the fact that if you can't indict a

president, it means you have to present this evidence to congress. you saw the attorney general appear to reject that and he never had a response to this issue of fairness that mueller came up with. it's this weird thing where the special counsel bent over backward toes be fair to the president, to not accuse him of a crime if he couldn't cheer his name and that fairness is now being used to beat him over the head. it's a bit ironic, i think. >> what is behind the justice department saying we know the judge said we have to release these transcripts, but we're not going to do it. >> officials under any administration would be reluctant to release this information. what is unusual here is the justice department saying we are the ones who are going to decide whether it's legitimate to let

this identity. we will decide what documents you get. we will decide what is fair. it's early here. it is a national security matter. there is a bit of a pattern here. >> okay. but steve, aside from the pattern that's been demonstrated by this administration, is there precedence for this? >> i don't know. >> yeah. anybody on the panel, anyone know if there's precedence for this or are we in totally unchartered water here? >>. >> i think steve is right. there is a transcript where it is clear that you are eavesdropping on the russian ambassador, i can see good arguments for not making that public. the strange thing is it is very

early. i don't know that there's a good reason why the judge needs to make these public in the first place, but the burden really is on the justice department to come in and make that case to him. >>. >> susan, what about the "new york times", the president seized the opportunity. did mueller underestimate the political climate? >> i think mueller decided the political climate was not his assignment, that he had a particular assignment to investigate, which he did, which he did with meticulous care and announced his results in a way that left both sides dissatisfied because he neither said case close, as the white house would have preferred, nor did he make an impassioned statement about the need for

impeachment. he made a much more quieter statement that led democrats to say it amounted to a call for impeachment. because i think that's how mueller saw his role. and what's difference now is that the attorney general has responded as the president's lawyer. we saw with the interview that he did with cbs, time and again, he indicated that he will move ahead with an investigation into the origin of the original inquiry. >> to the first half of the mueller report, let's take a look at what hillary clinton tweeted, the penalty has failed to protect the country's voting systems and he betrays his oath he every day? what does it say to you that

congress can't even agree to get any action particularly hartley under way? >> this has been a very political matter. and the trump administration and the state department say that they're taking all the steps necessary to protect our elections. however, we know that president trump has not brought up the issue of election meddling at every turn with vladimir putin. when they had a phone call recently, he notesed that they talked about mule mule ir and it special counsel, but he didn't press him on this issue because he doesn't think he needs to do that, anyway. and to the point about mueller and president trump, i was one of the reporters out on the south lawn when the approximated departed. i was one of the reporters who was fact checking him in realtime because the special counsel said if they had confidence that the president didn't commit a crime, they would have said so and that is a

critical line. president trump told us essentially mueller said he was innocent. i was one of the reporters who said mueller did not say he was innocent. >> bet you loved that question. lots of presidential candidates talking in san francisco this weekend, so thank you for that. after the break, more from virginia beach, the latest community struck by a mass shooting in this country. david will speak with the city's vice mayor in just a moment. stay with us. city's vice mayor in just a moment. stay with us every day, visionaries are creating the future.

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our chaplains, our human services and our family assistance staff and teams completed the most difficult task anyone will ever have to do and that is notifying the next of kin. so today, we all grieve. this morning, i have the responsibility to inform friends, to workers and the public of those who lost their lives. >> welcome. i'm david gura in virginia beach

where 12 people were killed on friday. four others have been injured in the shooting. during the course of this suppress conference, speak to what has happened in this community over the last 18 hours. >> we've obviously been stricken hard by this. you talk about volunteerism. we have the largest volunteer system, our public safety has

worked well. would he have got our state and federal partners here po assist us. everybody has been working well together, but it's a horrifying event for us. >> describe the life of this place. what is the day-to-day business of this place? >> it's extremely busy. the i.t. department is in there, all these facilities are in there. one of the victims was a citizen who was there to use city

services. >> what have these last 18 hours been like for you? >> it's been very difficult for a lot of us. we knew a lot of these people. i knew a number of these people. i know some of the people in the hospital, as well. this is a long-term process. the city is going to go through a grieving process. >> i know you grew up here and one of your first jobs was in the police department in virginia peach. help us understand what it was like here at the police department. reflect on that from your perspective. >> the police department did a phenomenal job. the fire department, sheriff's department, our 9911 and ems

people. unfortunately, we train for these things, but they train together. they are ready for mass casualties. but i can't say enough good things about how well the integrated public safety system worked in our city and how well they are coming together now to help the other city employees affected by this. >> you're processing all of this. there's the emotional weight of all of it. what are you thinking at this point about what needs to happen here in the coming days? >>. >> i think there will be a lot of discussion. it's a group process where we're going to be talking about what next steps are, what can we do, certainly an after action, if you will, but more than that because in is our family, friends and our family members.

it's tough on us. >> vice mayor jim wood of virginia beach joining must here. up next, alex witt continues our coverage of news and politics from new york. you're watching msnbc. from new . you're watching msnbc. who used expedia to book the vacation rental that led to the ride ♪ which took them to the place where they discovered that sometimes a little down time can lift you right up. ♪ flights, hotels, cars, activities, vacation rentals. expedia. everything you need to go.

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bounty, the quicker picker upper. now with new prints featuring characters from disney/pixar's toy story 4 in theaters june 21. you never know what life is going to throw at you. [ whimpering ] and from this point on. nothing is going to be the same. [ "all these things that i've done" by the killers ] no, no, no. this way buddy. no! liam's heads for comforts is in the 80th percetile. oh that's cool. it's a lot of head. it's like you're the dad and i'm the mom and we're in a relationship and this is our baby. [ laughing ] well... it's exactly like that! exactly! abortion existed before roe versus wade, it's just that healthy women died because of illegal judges. i think the judges, anyone has

to look at that, what this will do is not end abortion. it will simply means women will die again in this country. >> cecille richards there with alex hayes. on friday, a judge issued a temporary restraining order to stop the missouri health department from closing the state's last abortion clinic. that judge ruled the planned parenthood of the st. louis region has until tuesday to resolved a dispute with state regulators who declined to renew the clinic's license. if that were to happen, missouri would become the first state in the country without legal access to abortion since 1974. keep that in mind, the first state in the country to have that happen. all of this could still be head to go a skourtd showdown.

is this all become ago strategy to try to pit state legislations against abortion? >> yes. so republicans have realized that this battle is a state by state vocal battle. the federal courts and supreme court have put these votes on the table. so yes, there has been over years a turn towards doing this on a state by state level and chipping away at the edges, at the periphery of this. we're seeing that come to a head right now. >> in all fairness, should this be a surprise? when you think about republican

ideology, they're all about the states and the power of the states. could we have seen this coming from a mile away? >> yes. the they're going to try to highlight some of these late term abortions. there is a risk here. if you look at the laws in these more restrictive states, that is not necessarily where it is. >> the missouri health department is requiring the

clinic to do a couple of things. .first of all, it would have to adjust who provides the state mandated counselling and add an additional pelvic exam for patients. what do you make of this? >> this is part 069 strategy, push the most restrictive capabilities and take it to the supreme court and intelligent continue to chip away at that.

it took the president three times to get something the courts would allow. so currently conservatives have the majority and they can chip away at roe versus wade. >> when does this get to the supreme court level? >>. >> it could take a significant amount of time. if the court was to take these cases and make a decision, you wouldn't see that until 2020.

i think the question of abortion politics, for years, the country has largely believed abortion ought to be legal. but the people who are more likely to vote on it are those who disagree with abortion. the question is whether that changes in the wake of antawny kennedy whether that threat is imminent or not, it's an open question as to whether it works. >> is it clear where this president stands on the issue of a woman's right to choose?

>> yes. i think he has made that very clear with his supreme court picks. personally, he has a history of being on both sides of this issue, but with his supreme court picks, he has made it very apparent where he stands on this issue. this is obviously a very important issue to the vice president, it's a very important issue to kellyanne conway who is one of the last remaining political advisers and someone who is politically savvy left in the white house at this point. and i think the politics on this is clear. there is no ambiguity at this point. >>. >> is this something you think the president wants on his plate or this is front and center for mike pence and kellyanne conway. >> i can't speak to who is in

his head personally, but politically, this is a good issue to have on the table in 2020. they think this is a winning issue for republicans. there are people who would argue that it is not and that the republicans have gone too far in the other direction and it's not where the public mood is at this moment. >> steve, do you believe, a, that the supreme court would take up an issue like that and the extend it would influence the presidential election in that time frame? >> i don't know that it would happen in time for the presidential election. i think matt miller is absolutely correct that for a minority of voters, this is an important issue. one that causes them to rule out candidates they might vote for

otherwise. nina pointed out that the court upheld one portion of this law, that the feet yum be given a burial or a cremation. however, that is not necessarily a direct strike against the right to have an abortion and the court let stand a lower ruling overturning parts of the indiana law that determined when a woman could ask for or require an abortion. the counter did not yet appear to be willing to go there, even with the changes in personnel, even with the shift. they have not found the case where they want to go directly against roe versus wait even though some of these other moments in the country have done. >> thank you for joining us on this topic today. the rest of you guys have to stick around.

you are required to do so. we'll be right back with that because most of the 2020 democrats are searching for some california sun and a lot of support. up next, how impeachment talk is taking over the democratic confab as the contenders hit the west coast. s the contenders hite west coast i don't want to hear about insurance. 'cause let's be honest... nobody likes dealing with insurance. right? see, esurance knows it's expensive. i feel like i'm giving my money away. so they're making it affordable. thank you, dennis quaid. you're welcome, guy in kitchen. i named my character walter. that's great. i'd tell you more but i only have thirty seconds so here's a dramatic shot of their tagline so you'll remember it. when insurance is affordable, it's surprisingly painless.

still fresh... ♪ unstopables in-wash scent booster ♪ downy unstopables welcome back. delegate rich my home state of california is set to play an important role in the 2020 primaries. this weekend, presidential

hopefulry co hopefulry converging on the state. the nation's most populous state, 14 of the 23 democratic candidates are attending a party convention in san francisco. it is the largest gathering of contenders so far this year. one notable exception, though, former vice president joe biden. beth joins us now at 6:45 a.m. from san francisco. with an early good morning to you, what do we we expect to hear from the candidates today? how long do they, six, seven minutes to speak? >> yeah, that's right. they're going to dry to differentiate themselves. every since joe biden got in the field, nobody has been able to sort of ride up and challenge

him. so this will be an opportunity for others to grab the spotlight. the main candidate i would say would is going to have a lot to prove is senator kamala harris who is running third in polls here, remind people why they elected her three times in this state and to make a compelling case for why she should be the next president. >> eric smalwell will be speaking this afternoon, as well. what is it about california? illustrate has always been delegate rich, but what is it that is making california so prominent this year?

>> they moved their primary up to the 3rd. they are going to mail ballots to voters on february 3rd. so the fact that california has gone from fact california has g from -- they typically had their primary in june. moved it up into march to play a bigger role in selecting the nominee. it's significant. you're going to see more candidates spending time here for that reason. because california is so big, so expensive, probably the only candidates who will try to compete to win the delegates california has will be the very top tier candidates who have the most money to try to spend in a place like this. and at this point, we don't know what's going to happen between now and next february. it looks like it would be joe biden, bernie sanders, and kamala harris. >> don't leave us, beth. stay with us. i'm going to bring the panel back in as well. matt, first to you. beth did a great job of talking about california and its move to

being a supertuesday state. it's really raised the stakes. but who are you seeing as being the leading contender in california right now? i know it's early. it is a snapshot. but joe biden isn't going there. is he feeling comfortable there? or is it something else? does he not think california maybe appeals to his more centrist politics? >> i think vice president biden so far has shown a different outlook than the other candidates. where you see him campaigning on the ground a little bit less. he's the front runner. he just got in. i suspect we'll see that ramp up as we get closer. he's got a different strategy. kamala harris is strong. elizabeth warren had a huge rally last night in oakland. i'll tell you. i remember being at the democratic convention in the spring of 2003, beth was probably there too. similar situation to now. you had an incumbent republican president. you had a large and diverse democratic primary field. and i remember seeing a bunch of

candidates come up and give speeches. and howard dean come up and come out of nowhere and energize that crowd. it was the first sign i saw that howard dean was going to be a candidate that was going to surge and make real waves when no one expected it. you may see a candidate come out of nowhere or maybe not come out of nowhere. somebody you weren't expecting to be a front runner. as beth described it kind of the true blue activist base of the party. >> that depiction, francesca, looking at the april quinnipiac poll finds that kamala harris of california is polling third despite launching and having her rollout for her candidacy with a lot of sfifireworks there. how damaging is that for her that she lands in third place right now? >> again, we're still quite far out. but i will say that kamala harris' strategy relies on her doing very well in this

supertuesday state. it takes her over that hump and carries her journey forward as a presidential candidate. if she cannot compete well in california, not just because it's her home state but because of how many delegates it has, it will be very hard for her to continue in the race. so other candidates have two options. they can bring it to her on her home turf and try to limit the number of delicaegates she gets there for that reason. or as you said previously, they could say this is an expensive media market. i cannot afford to compete there. i think the person she has to be concerned about in california is bernie sanders. he made it all the way to the california primary last time with hillary clinton. and he does have a voter base there already. >> yeah, he does. guys, last question to you. what if the roar of the crowd is greater for bernie sanders than it is for kamala harris? how damaging is that? you've got about 20 seconds to answer. >> kamala harris' strategy is not california focused at the moment. it's focused on south carolina

which comes before california. if she can do well in south carolina, the strategy is she has momentum going into her home state for that crucial primary on march 3rd. >> okay. you did that in 15 seconds. well done, my friend. my thanks to all of my friends there. we're going to go right now back to david, the host of this show who's continuing to follow this morning's developmentous of the virginia beach. that was a sobering news conference we heard earlier. >> it was, indeed. and struck by the priorities of it to name those 12 victims at the top, tell us about them. i'm struck by how many of them had long and storied careers with the city of virginia beach and talking to the vice mayor just a few moments ago, it's clear how well known they were within this community and certainly within this municipal park where this shooting took place. continue to follow the story throughout the day. of course there's going to be a news conference this afternoon. that according to the police chief in which you might learn more about the four wounded victims at hospital here in

virginia beach. another is in norfolk as well including that police officer who survived according to that police chief only because of the vest that he was wearing. our coverage continues right here on msnbc. >> i have to echo your sentiments. i think the fact that the city manager started with those victims, focused on those victims in such great detail, incredibly poignant and the way it should be done going forward. take a listen, everybody, from the city of virginia beach. and everyone, we'll be right back. rginia beach and everyone, we'll be right back with verizon up, we won luke bryan tickets.

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that is going to do it for me and david gura today. i'll see you back next weekend. right now joy reid. stay there, everyone. good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy." well, welcome to america's new normal. where 12 innocent people in virginia beach paid with their lives just for living in a country where buying guns is easier than renting an apartment. and where 151 days in america 2019, almost one mass shooting a day. also part of america's bleak new normal, these disturbing pictures we saw last night of dozens of migrant adults piled on top of each other literally at a dangerously overcrowded detention center in el paso, texas, in a space designed for far fewer humans.

also overnight, what has become another new normal under the trump administration. the justice department has blown right past ignoring congressional subpoenas and is now refusing a court order to release the transcripts of conversations between michael flynn and the russian ambassador in december 2016. so welcome to that. but despite this constitution-bending new thing that has almost become routine where the trump administration simply chooses which laws and congressional and court orders it feels like complying with backed by the attorney general version of roy cohn, what has become the new normal is the leader of the opposition party is weirdly calm and plainly openly extremely reluctant to use impeachment as a sanction against this president. >> you don't bring an indictment or you don't bring an impeachment unless you have all of