determination as to whether the president did commit a crime. the introduction to the volume 2 of our report explains that decision. it explains that under long-standing department policy, a president cannot be charged with a federal crime while he is in office. that is unconstitutional. charging the president with a crime was, therefore, not an option we could consider. >> hello and welcome to "am joy" coming to you live from london. when former special prosecutor robert mueller finally broke his silence rast month, he reiter e reiterated the policy that says a sitting president cannot be indicted. he stated that his office therefore never considered trying to indict donald trump for obstruction of justice despite not being able to clear him of crimes and finding 10 separate instances that now -- nearly 1,000 former federal prosecutors, republicans and

democrats, say would constitute criminal obstruction by anyone other than a sitting president. but in recent days my next guest has put forth a different and controversial take on what mueller declined to do. in his new book "siege" michael wolff writes by march of 2018 mueller's office had drawn up a three-count obstruction of justice indictment before later abandoning it. wolff writes, "according to the draft indict, donald trump's scheme to obstruct justice began on the seventh day of his administration. it traced the line of obstruction from national security adviser michael flynn's lies to the fbi about his contacts with russian representatives to the president's efforts to have james comey protect flynn, to comey's firing to the president's effort to interfere with the special council's investigation to his attempt to cover up his son and son-in-law's meeting with russian government agents, to his moves to interfere with deputy director of the fbi andrew mccabe's testimony, and,

as well, to retaliate against him." the special counsel's office is denying any indictment was drafted. michael jackson wolf joins me now. he's the author of "siege" trump you said fire a follow-up to his best selling book fire and fury. thank you for being here. >> thank you for having me. >> hets talk about this document you have in your possession that says the indictment -- was this an attempt by the special counsel's office, in your view, to game out what an indictment would look like? >> sure. let me tell you exactly what i have and the document is in my possession. it's a 56-page document. it assumes that the president has been indicted. it assumes that the president has gone into court and asked for that indictment to be dismissed on the grounds you can't indict a sitting president. the document i have then is an answer to the president's

motion, and it has two parts. the first part outlines the terms of the indictment. it's about 20 pages highly specific. the second part makes the argument about why a sitting president can be indicted. and it's a thorough and, in fact, powerful and actually at least to me highly convincing argument. >> you had like a blanket pretty hard stop denial that this was ever the case. >> i don't think it was -- i don't think -- the specific denial was the documents as described don't exist. to me that's a nondenial denial. actually when your colleague ari melber went back and asked them about other of the documents that i discuss in the book, they refused to comment and refused to dispute the existence of the documents. you know, we're in -- the

special counsel is for two years it operated under the absolute cone of silence. its narrative. it imposed its narrative. when mueller into not long ago, he said, basically, the report speaks for itself. well, in fact, the report speaks very, very unclearly. so i think we have reason to ask what happened during those two years. i would submit that very obviously they have to consider the terms of a possible indictment, even if they were to reject that. they had to consider whether or not you could indict a president. so the idea that is absolutely accepted policy and law is not true. actually ken starr argued that you could indict a president.

vice president agnew, who would be covered under the same rules as the president, was effectively indicted. or at least he was told if you don't resign, you're going to be indicted. again, there's a whole patina of dissembling around the special counsel. it's just -- washington at this point in time is what's the reflex -- reflexive response is deny, deny, deny. i think we're seeing -- we will see and we will learn what happened during two years -- two years to come up with a very equivocal report, what went on. >> let me ask you a couple of questions. i want to get through the objections of what your report was. the andrew mccabe piece of your reporting in the book, that wassen wo of the counts considered against donald trump was not enumerated in the 10

instance-of-obstruction lan -- n laid out in his report. why was that? >> the document i have goes through march 2018. all i can say is i don't know what happened. what i can say is that in this document, prepared then, that was one of the counts and certainly one of the -- again, something that it would have been very logical for them to consider. >> yeah. is there a chance you would release this document redacted maybe to conceal the origin of it? >> i've given this a the lo of thought. i've gone back to my source on this. i think at this point the answer is no because of the considerations about my source. but having said that, there is a lot of material from that document that is in the book. >> okay. let's talk about robert mueller. you sort of describe him in almost hamlet-like terms.

a lot of people have had that very question as to how he saw his role, what he saw his role as being and doing, this job of being special counsel. was there a reluctance to confront the president that was at the heart of the equivocal answer at the end. mueller report, was there a reluctance to confront the president's family? there was no attempt to interview the president and the children of the president, the adult children were left untouched in his final report. >> steve bannon after the report came out, i quote steve bannon in the book as saying, never send a marine to do a hit man's job. i think it probably does go to both robert mueller's character and his priorities. part of this set of documents that i have is kind of carefully laid out research set of answers

about the fragility of the special counsel. at one point they ask can the president directly fire robert mueller? answer, yes. what happens to the work product if the special counsel office is closed down? possibly it could be shredded. this kind of thing. so i just have the feeling reading through this that robert mueller realized that donald trump could provoke the mother of all constitutional crisis here, he could bring the bill arre -- pillars down. he's the man in the suicide vest in a sense. bob mueller -- this is again my reading -- i think that he thought in the better part of valor here is not to force the president into a situation where he -- where he destroys

everything. >> you just quoted steve bannon so i'm going to read you a quote from your book, another quote from steve bannon. says, "this is where it isn't a witch hunt, even for the hard core. this is where he turns into just a crooked business guy one worth $50 million. bannon, whether mueller or the southern district of new york or the democrats or trump's own psychoactions provided the engine of destruction, the odds of the president going down remained as great as ever and not in a blaze of glory. i want to talk about your reliance with steve bannon as a source. he's associated with alt-right, white nationalism and rolled the dice to get trump into the white house advancing this alt-right agenda he's trying to force on europe. are you comfortable with him as a source and why should we rely on anything he says? >> i think the trump administration begins with steve

bannon. trump became the president because steve bannon entered the campaign and had a vision for how this would work. they then went on to have this very peculiar, to say the least, relationships. i think it's one of the most interesting, dramatic relationships in modern politics. they love each other, they hate each other, they are attracted to each other, they are repulsed by each other. they are wedded to each other and always trying to escape each other. so through that all, my conclusion -- at least one of my conclusions would be that steve bannon understands donald trump in a way that that few others understand him. flaws and virtues. yes, this was a marriage. he understands -- he understands

donald trump like he might understand his wife. >> do you believe that bannon believed donald trump shares his white nationalist, some would say neo-fascist views. he was in europe -- it was put away. he was going to try to create a school to turn out more a alt-rig alt-right-type politicians in europe. >> i wouldn't put this in a way to defend him but said donald trump doesn't know about the agenda, doesn't care about the agenda. it's, again, one of those really interesting, totally fascinating kind of alignments or lack of alignment that steve bannon has this, is the guy who kind of invented the meaning of

trumpism. but trumpism, in its own way, doesn't exist and it is bannonism. so you know, trump is on message some of the times, many times completely off message. >> do you think that bannon is going on the record so much, including with you, because you he now think donald trump just isn't useful to advancing his agenda? if that's the case, is anything he says particularly necessarily truth worthy? >> i think that that's probably not true, he still goes back and forth between thinking donald trump is useful, donald trump is his vessel. there's as series of reachouts from the white house to bannon about whether bannon should back to the white house or what role he should take. then in these situations, bannon

is -- expresses interest and then ambivalence and trump expresses interest and his own ambivalence. they can't seem to get back together yet. one of the other things i would say is that donald trump -- if donald trump has any hope of being re-elected in 2020, that path will probably be back through steve bannon. >> i'm here in london where donald trump just was here on a state visit. he seems to be very eager to have a relationship with the royal family, for them to like him. he did not get the photo-op he wanted with the young royals. it was quite a pointed seeming snub. what do you make of donald trump's needs? he seems to be somebody with great amount of emotional need. you're a new york guy, he's a new york guy, you've known a lot of the same people. what do you make of him? >> donald trump has spent 45 years doing nothing but seeking attention, and seeking attention

in the public sphere. he has no private sphere. i think it's very important. the trip that he did to london a year ago was full of disappointments for him because he couldn't get the attention that he thought he deserved from the royal family. so this is in some ways a successful return. it took them a year to arrange. but he got what might make him happy, happy for a moment. i don't think happiness lasts very long for donald trump. >> last question, we are out of time. should the american public be concerned about how erratic this president seems to be just based on you've done two books about him now? >> is the pope catholic? absolutely. this is the most concerning thing in american political life certainly in my lifetime, i think for anybody's lifetime. the possibility that donald trump is just a madman is not

only likely but it's overwhelming. and the idea that he is as -- that there's a method to his madness or that he's crazy like a fox i think is bologna. i think it's just from pillar to post. it's just what comes into his head at any given moment. there is no method here. it's just crazy town. >> wow, michael wolff, thank you very much. really appreciate your time. good luck with the book. thank you. >> thanks. >> thank you very much. coming up, the pattern should be familiar by now. donald trump starts a fire, donald trump feels the heat from said fire, donald trump puts out the fire he started, donald trump declares himself to be a fireman. we'll talk immigration and the trump total retreat next. nd the trump tatol retreat next ne's go. when it comes to reducing the sugar in your family's diet, coke, dr pepper and pepsi hear you.

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well, there is not much support in my conference for tariffs, that's for sure. i think it's safe to say, you've talked to all of our members, we're not fans of tariffs. >> i think it's a mistake. honest opinion is short-term gain is not worth long-term pain. >> for a lot of republicans, it's a tax. a tax born mostly by consumer. >> we may have enough to override a veto on this. >> this week we learned that republicans in congress are not

as helpless in the face of donald trump's tantrums as they pretend to do. republican objections to donald trump's manufactured crisis of the week, this time a threat to impose tariffs on mexico over immigration which would have severely damaged the u.s. economy and their re-election prospects prompted rare public objections to something their white house boss wanted to do. just like that, with no intervening events other than republican complaints, donald trump backed all the way down on his tariff threat. in true trump fashion bragged on friday that the crisis was averted by a deal with mexico except there was no new deal. "the new york times" the supposedly new agreement consists of actions mexico had already promised. mvp while trump is ignoring the real crisis at the southern border. according to a new nbc report, dozens of migrant children, some as young as 5 years old were

left in vance for as maens as 24 hours. one child was kept in a van for 39 hours before being reunited with their parents nearly two entire days. we're learning just how many migrants have died in u.s. custody under the trump immigration regime. joining me is kwon from colorado and msnbc coordinator jakob sobirov. i want to go to you first. i want to talk about your republican colleagues. they feign helplessness, why do you suppose this time they were able to get their way and make the president come to heel on this tariffs for mexico. >> we do have an election year coming up next year. as you said, many republicans are up for election.

republicans don't tend to like tariffs anyway. they were realizing it was going to devastate their local economies, cause consumer prices to soar. and it's interesting this is the one place that the republicans decided to take a stand. as you said, we have thousands of migrant children at risk at the border and others in the i.c.e. facilities treated. the tariffs are what the republicans decided to take a stand on. >> cory gardner, from your home state of colorado, is someone suddenly very vocal objected to something donald trump is doing. is this because he faces a tough re-elect or do you think it's a principled stand. >> i think cory gardner realizes he's probably the most vulnerable republican center. colorado, we elected a new house member, we elected the democratic governor, all the statewide office and democratic

legislature last time. we are trending blue, and cory gardner has had a very conservative voting record. he just endorsed president trump a couple months ago, for example. he's trying to find any way that he can to put some light between himself and the president. but i think it's going to be a hard sell for him and a lot of the other senate republicans. they have just been walking in lock step for far too long. >> let me go to jacob soboroff. you have republicans who discovered their voice when it came to tariffs, which hurt their re-election because it hurts the economy. we've seen excellent reporting from you. new piece about overcrowding in this of these facilities with migrants are being held. dangerous overcrowding. migrant children stuck at border stations, sleeping on concrete because of hhs overcrowding. warning more deaths if health and human services do not increase their capacity.

we know 24 immigrants have already died in u.s. custody, which is shocking. three detainees just since april alone. i want to let you respond to the fact there hasn't been a human cry from a party that can actually do something about what the trump administration is doing. why do you suppose that is? >> there's a lack of transparency, joy, and it's hard to get to the bottom of what's happening inside the facilities. you see the inspector general's report what's going on in four different, including congresswoman degette's district in colorado. the only way you can actually get inside and see for yourself and there is any accountability is to have someone like the office of inspector general inside. i've been inside another detention facility called out in this report here in southern california where they found literally nooses hanging in the cells of detainees, many of whom are held in isolation, solitary confinement without recreational space or ability to go outside

for a meaningful amount of time. it seems like the only times we have retreats are in the face of manufactured crisis that are pretty transparent and easy to see like the separations where you saw a bunch of republicans come out or like the instance with the tariffs the president was pushing for over the weekend. it's easy to see how damaging this would be easy to the psyche and long-term health of young children or the young public and american workers, republicans seem to get on board and get on board in numbers. >> stay with you quickly before i go back to the congresswoman, jacob. i have the report. what's in here is shocking. we'll show a little bit. one of the facilities you've been in, arora facility, which i believe would be in the congresswoman's district, privately owned facility is among four facilities the homeland security internal watchdog said inmates experience poor conditions such as rotting food, moldy and dilapidated

bathrooms. we have photos. this is shocking. this is meat that's left out. this is food that is spoiled. and the report was released on monday. this is the office for inspector general for homeland security. it shows opened packages of raw meat leaking blood, food not properly labeled and stored. this is garbage open. it shows a shower stall with mold, mildew, peeling paint and overflowing toilet, detainee bathrooms with mold and nonworking toilet. it just kind of goes on and on and on. jacob, these are the kind of facilities -- are children in these facilities, too, or adults? either way would be bad? >> these are adult detention centers. by definition, joy, looking at the pictures it makes you sick. it is disgusting, unhealthy and inhumane. that's the language detainees use when you talk to them about

spending time inside. by the way, what are private prisons. that has to be said over and over again. none of these are operated by the federal government. the only one out of the four cited top rated by local jurisdiction was essex and that's operated by a jail, the rest geo group private prison for profit company, able to make donations to politicians to keep these things up and running. the conditions speak for themselves when you look at what's going on in there. we have to continue to ask the question why are there so many people locked up in immigration detention, be them children in the custody of health and human services or adults, many of them in isolation, solitary confinement than no other reason than they crossed into the country illegally from ports of entry. why they did that often goes back to trump administration won't allow them in the legal way. >> to go back to the congresswoman, the question then becomes what's going to be done about it. now we know congress can act if they want to.

john kelly, former department of homeland security head, chief of staff of the president, joining the board of one of these private companies that operates facilities in homestead, florida. we have elizabeth warren saying there's going to be at least a look at it from her senate office. are we going to see hearings about this? do we need to start asking the question, who is profiting from the treatment, ill treatment in a lot of cases of these migrants. >> absolutely, joy. what's frustrating to us is that the administration does nothing to try to improve these conditions or to try to take care of the children, improve the conditions, unless there are congressional investigations. so i'm the chair of the oversight subcommittee of energy and commercial. we had a hearing on the facilities that are holding the kids. we have jurisdiction over the kids. well, of course, when we finally had the hearing, the republicans and the administration said oh, this is terrible and we're fixing it. they fixed it for about a

nanosecond. now you see all of these kids being held again. so we're going to have to have more hearings. with respect to the i.c.e. facilities, this is terrible. one thing that's been happening with the aurora facility, just outside my congressional district, they have been refusing to allow members of congress to go in there just on short notice. so we actually have legislation sponsored by my colleague to allow congress to go in with only 48 hour notice. the bottom line around these facilities is we shouldn't have private prisons housing these migrants. this is a job of the government, and we should shut these down and we should put more of these -- the people who are not risks, we should put them on ankle bracelets or other ways of surveillance and not be holding them in custody. >> at minimum the people's representatives should at least be able to go in these facilities. you would think that would be basic 101.

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i like joe biden. i've liked him for a long time. we just need to win. >> the results from the latest "des moines register" poll are in and former vice president joe biden remains on top. however, his support is down three points since the same poll

was conducted in march while senator bernie sanders has dropped nine points while staying at number two. rounding out the top five two candidates who appear to be on the rise, senator elizabeth warren, in third place, up six points from march and mayor pete buttigieg up 13 points in fourth. rounding out top five, kamala harris who was static from the last poll at 7%. joining me, caroline, professor at politics. host of podcast "break-dances with wolves" and columnist for "the daily beast" and author of the great new book "if we can keep it." i'll go with you first, carolyn. should biden and sanders are worried about the trajectory of these polls? biden came in with name id numbers. there seems to be a seeping of the air out of the biden and bernie sanders balloon or is that just my perception? >> that's absolutely happening

according to data. i would be worried, although biden is still the candidate to beat. he's the most electable and safe and someone that can win back the midwest. the shifting polls and rapid rise of pete buttigieg kamala harris staying in there an elizabeth warren's rocket rise. all that means it's anybody's race. there's seven candidates, five candidates who have a really good shot of getting the nomination. we're a year and a half out. as soon as we get through a couple of these democratic debates, i think we'll see the field narrow to three or four candidates. >> i wonder if part of what we're seeing here is that biden has that huge advantage because people know who he is. the enthusiasm more about donald trump whereas some candidates have more enthusiasm about

themselves. favorability in iowa, elizabeth warren has the most favorability, four points higher than biden, 40 for buttigieg, sanders 32, harris 31, booker, o'rourke and klobuchar rounding that out. then you had issues. you had joe biden reverse his stance on the hyde amendment after pressing from people on his staff and people like simone sanders. let's hear a little from joe biden on that this week. >> we now see so many republican governors denying health care to the poorest, most vulnerable americans berefusing medicaid substantial. i can't justify leaving millions of women without access to the care they need and the ability to exercise their constitutionally protected right. if i believe health care is a right, as i do, i can no longer make that a right dependent on someone's zip code. >> i wonder if issues are the

problem for biden because right now he's sort of you know coasting on name id. what do you think? >> i think iowans into very clearly. they said we're looking at ideas over perceived electability. let's make that clear that it's perceived electability. they said i don't know what you folks are doing every place else but at least here we don't really like joe biden. we understand that he might be seen as the safe choice. but whether it's because of his flip flopping on this hyde amendment or his decades of trying to -- voting against health care reproductive rights against women. specifically voting twice against having medicaid access, funding for women who were survivors of incest and rape and medicaid benefits for them or in cars rating hundreds of

thousands of brown and black bodies by virtue of being a leading spokesperson for the war on drugs or three strikes amendment, mandatory minimums. for whatever reason iowans say at least at this time we're looking at ideals over electability. they might be saying that we understand that democrats have a long history of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory by going over this electability calculus by the way of al gore or michael dukakis or john kerry. instead they are saying we're looking at ideals and, thus, why you see mayor pete and elizabeth warren soaring in the polls. >> to that very point, michael, and gyasi has invoked the specter of michael dukakis and previous defeats for democrats perceived as a safe choice for democrats. sanders has a similar issue. sanders has high name id, came very close and challenged hillary clinton in the last primary debate but he, too, has

a certain ceiling. he's starting to drift down as well. he's planning to give democratic socialism speech, big speech this coming wednesday. thais a way to revive his standing? it does feel like a lot of the issues he put out last time have been come opted by other candidates, medicare for all and others, other candidates for that, too. as far as the new ideas candidates, that's kind of more elizabeth warren and the new and novel candidate is buttigieg. >> i think that's right. i'm a little surprised to see sanders giving that speech, because i think it's accentuate him over the democratic electorate. younger people, 25 to 40 think reasonably well of the concept of socialism and doesn't bother them. in many ways, many of them are enthusiastic about it. older voters aren't enthusiastic about it, and that includes democrats, liberal and moderate

democrats out there across the country who do make up the bulk of the primary electorate. i think a speech like this probably accentuates the division over him within the primary electorate. i would agree with you that i think he probably has a ceiling. i think his drop of 9 points from last month to this month in this iowa poll probably reminds us of that, that his ceiling is somewhere -- in most states, not all states by my means but in many states somewhere in the 15 to 20% range. i should note 15% gets him delegates. the way it works, no in wither takes all all proportional with 15% threshold. if he hits that 15 in a lot of states he'll collect a lot of delegates along the way. >> let's talk about elizabeth warren. you know, she doesn't get the headlines but she's certainly moving. i think she's moving the most, i would say, other than buttigieg. moving pretty rapidly but kind

of quietly, carolyn. talk about elizabeth warren for a bit. is she taking from these other candidates or really having kind of what we've seen in the past as just an organic catching fire, and it's going to start in iowa and she has maybe a higher ceiling to climb. >> well, she certainly has a harder road in front of her because she's a woman running for this office. it's important to know that she's the only woman in the top four with kamala harris close behind. but warren has distinguished herself because she's simply a better candidate, i would say. i don't have a horse in this race but in terms of policy proposals, responding to things, really having her finger in the wind of what's happening with the democratic party right now, she is probably siphoning votes from bernie sanders because they are so similar but she feels like the most effective campaigner and the most effective policy person at this point. >> i'm going to go to gyasi and

michael, who do you think has the biggest trajectory you've seen so far? >> elizabeth warren is really, really coming on. i've been critical of her and a lot of members from native communities have been critical of her because of the whole cherokee thing, and that's a real thing. nonetheless, she has absolutely amazed a lot of folks, including myself, with her ideals. constantly, constantly communicating in a very effective manner, amazing ideals. i think that absolutely she has the most potential for growth. >> yeah. very quickly, michael, who has the most upward movement in your view? >> if we look at numbers solely, pete buttigieg, from 1% to 14% in a month, that's pretty remarkable. i don't know if i've ever seen that. he has shown that. i'm not sure what it is. he hasn't put out proposal after proposal like elizabeth warren has but he's fast on his feet and smart. >> he got some criticism for brown paper bag drinking thing

but other than that -- >> weird. >> a little weird. carolyn and michael back in the next hour. gyasi, thank you very much. coming up, the flap over pride month. that is next. the flap over pride month. that is next ancestrydna told my dad

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at the capital pride parade in washington, d.c., on saturday, a loud noise and rumors of shots fired sent people running in a panic. several people were injured in the chaos, but police say there were no shots fired and no active threat although they did arrest a man for possessing a handgun. meanwhile, with the trump era three years in, there is pride month controversy to discuss involving our embassies around the world and here to discuss it all is brandon wolf, a grand marshal of the capital pride alliance parade and a survivor of the pulse nightclub shooting in orlando florida three years ago this month. always good to see you, brandon. can you talk about what happened? i know you weren't right near the scene of the panic, but just talk a little bit about that, particularly in the context that you bring to it. >> yeah. you know, first of all, i want to say thank you to d.c. police and also to capital pride staff. i'm really thankful that there

were no major injuries and that everything, you know, was taken care of. but, yeah, it was terrifying. listen, i've seen the looks on people's faces before that i saw yesterday. you know, what -- i think what's so disheartening to me is this is who we are. this is who this country has become. you know, we need to address the elephant in the room, and that is that every single person in this country sits on pins and needles every day waiting for the next mass shooting. every time you see a city trending on social media or a school trending or an event trending, you hold your breath because you think, oh, god, it's happening again. and congress seems to be really powerless to stop it. it's been over 100 days since the house of representatives passed a universal background checks bill and it's dead on arrival in the senate. so for the time being, you know, you have to ask yourself, would you really have been surprised if this was not a false alarm? and for people on the ground, i can tell you they probably wouldn't have been surprised you

be fortunately. >> yeah. of course, the pulse shooting having been the largest massacre of lgbt people in the country has to be doubling jarring. i'm glad you're okay. >> thank you. >> no, of course. this trump administration policy of not allowing our embassies to fly the pride flags that have decades have been standard for pride month, particularly jarring in some ways in berlin where the u.s. ambassador is a gay man who has been trying to decriminalize and been pushing for the decriminalization of homosexuality in 70 countries. >> this is who the trump administration is. they may be willing tow tweet about something at the beginning of pride month. they may be willing to sell tacky t-shirts on their website which are on sale, by the way, but what they're not willing to do is go to bat for lgbtq people. this is the same administration

who banned transgender folks from serving their country. they're working to roll back the equal access rule trying to kick transgender folks out of homeless shelters. it's the same administration that's attacking the children of same-sex couples and dealing with their citizenship. so if you look at the actual actions of this administration, refusing to fly the pride flag as we've been able to do for nearly a decade under barack obama is just one more, you know, insult to injury that this trump administration has lobbed against the lgbtq community. i think for me a mantra that came out of pulse is that i will never honor the 49 victims with just my words. i'll never honor them with just thoughts and prayers. i'm obligated to honor them with action and i think the trump administration and everybody in federal government is obligated to do the same thing, to not honor the victims of pulse and not honor the transgender women of color who have been murdered just with empty platitudes but

to honor them with true action, with real change and, you know, to move the country forward. >> yeah. and i will note that donald trump did tweet last friday in honor of lgbt pride month but he didn't officially declare june to be lgbt pride month as both bill clinton and president obama did. i'll note that. i'm here in london and there's been a lot of talk here about a lesbian couple that was attacked, physically attacked in public, for refusing to kiss in front of men who were demanding -- four teenagers between 15 and 18 have been arrested. what do you make of the state of lgbt acceptance around the world? it isn't obviously just the u.s. >> i think it's really important that we acknowledge the progress that's been made. the fact that major corporations around the world are willing to put rainbow stickers on things and sell merchandise to the lgbtq community specifically during june is a sign of progress but the reality is

pride is rooted in activism and advocacy and specifically a push back against violence against the lgbtq community. they really are vulnerable and specifically within our ecosystem transgender folks are under attack every single day. and so, you know, i would say that the lgbtq community really almost has a right to feel scared. they have a right to be afraid for their safety. we've seen how quickly things can roll back in a short amount of time under this administration. if we want to push back against lgbtq violence, we need to create a culture of inclusion. that means making sure all voices are at the table is paramount. it means making sure the most vulnerable among us have a seat at the table and it means pushing back against the rhetoric and the actions from an administration that's running wild over the lgbtq community. we need to set a tone that inclusion is the only way to go and hate is not it. >> brandon wolf, it's always a

pleasure to talk to you. thank you so much. glad that you're okay. thank you so much for being here. >> thank you. and a happen bring pride month to you. we'll throw that out to you as well. more "am joy" after the break. when cravings come on strong, now you can be stronger. with new nicorette coated ice mint. layered with flavor... it's the first and only coated nicotine lozenge. for an unexpectedly amazing taste... ...that outlasts your craving. new nicorette ice mint. craving relief never tasted so good.

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during the president's important trip to europe, the fake news smear machine in full gear. according to joe concha the president has received mostly glowing reviews from the british

press. >> well, welcome back to "am joy." it didn't take long for donald trump to parrot sean hannity's claim that trump received quite glowing reviews last week. but like everything on earth, too, that was quite a bit off from reality. enter one george conway, husband of kellyanne, who posted a 38 tweet thread showing that trump's coverage in the u.k. was far from glowing. it included these headlines making fun of trump's banquet tuxedo. criticism of trump breaking protocol with the queen and prince harry's apparent chilliness towards the president. glowing reviews. back at home in the u.s. the headlines were quite different. "the wall street journal" hailed trump as a, quote, rare dose of stability to a continent in flux.

"the new york times" called trump's london visit a, quote, royal london family affair. some political reporters praised trump for not veering off of the script. so why the difference? joining me now is gabriel sherman. eric boller, author and media analyst and henry bansu, freelance broadcaster. i'm going to go to you first, henry. there is a columnist for the guardian called maria hyde who wrote a quite scorching review of donald trump's trip. i'll read a part of it. i'm not reading the first paragraph, which is really, really -- just read it online. the whole political class were on the grift just as much as trump. the only people to not get what they wanted out of it were people who think that brittain's mad nostalgia and political self-harm is at an advanced clinical stage, and that just because we've found the one person more of a basket case than us doesn't mean we're

winning. and now let me play frequent sparring partner with the white house, jim acosta of cnn. >> this was perhaps the most on message moment of donald trump's presidency today. we were all wondering whether he would veer from his remarks, go off of his script there, but he stayed on script, stayed on message and i think rose to the moment. it really was one of those moments that i think donald trump needed to rise to in order to i think walk away from the cemetery, walk away from this hallowed ground and have, you know, people back at home saying, you know what, no matter what i think about the current president of the united states, he said the right thing at normandy. he did the right thing at normandy. >> you know, henry, what is it about the british press that they're able to be so much more fiery? >> well, look, i mean, here we have in the u.k. a political class in turmoil. i mean, the like of which we've

not seen before. the two main political parties reduced to shadows of their formal selves, both in the local elections and european elections. it is true that people wanted to be seen close to the donald, but it shows just how low the bar is that someone as revered as jim acosta, a very good political correspond department from cnn, for him to say that trump was essentially presidential was truly embarrassing, i think. what else could he do? he was kept in two straight jackets, one from the royal family and the other from d-day. he couldn't go off the script. the pomp, ceremony and history was just too heavy, even for someone like him. >> you know, eric boller, is the bar now that if donald trump reads the words that were given to him to read without, i don't know, ad-libbing, that's it, that he's presidential? >> that's where we are, right? he recites something off script and doesn't act crazy. let's be honest, he doesn't act like a madman, doesn't act like a bully, doesn't act like a

pathological liar, he gets rave reviews. i don't know if maybe it's because the british -- the press is going through the brexit crisis and they don't have the patience for nonsense, for charletans. they understand what happens when political leaders lead a country into the abyss and they've seen it happening and they're grappling with it and they're not going to deal with it. there's not a cancerous beltway media culture and the press lays down for a republican president. just real quick, the washington post had a piece, some news organizations are just now summoning the courage to call trump a liar. he came down that escalator, trump towers, four years ago this june to announce his candidacy and we're just calling him a liar in the news pages? that's not good. and i think the contrast with the coverage with the british visit, his trip to london, i mean, it just puts that into clear relief.

>> you know, gabriel, you know that from all of the writing about trump, including your own, donald trump really craves the approval of the royal family. >> yeah. >> as has been reported here in brittain, but also of the media, particularly "the new york times." >> of course. >> this week the times ended up taking back a tweet about a column in which, you know, for whatever the purpose of it was, the trumps were compared to the kendis who, you know, gave two sons, one to assassination, one to world war ii. the kennedys are a seminole american family. the comparison was made, maybe it was from the mind of the trumps, i don't know, but it does seem donald trump has gotten some of what he wanted from the times or is that the perception from their twitter account? >> no, i think without question. if you look back into the sweep of history donald trump has gotten so much from "the new york times." "the new york times" in 1976 put him on the front page in a glowing profile that completely inflated his net worth. the paper printed without skepticism that he was worth, quote, more than $200 million. i just recently reread the clip.

when, in fact, all that money was his father's money and he was worth nowhere near that. so "the new york times," they've done some ground breaking work probing trump's opaque finances and hard-hitting pieces, the paper in general has not been the adversary that donald trump has painted it to be. this is real quickly what donald trump does. by painting the enemy and calling them the enemy of the -- the media the enemy of the people, he's redefined what the media does so that when they actually do, you know, tough pieces, the context is that a lot of times they're actually pretty fair to him and he just sort of plays the victim constantly. so i think we should not let donald trump's rhetoric about the times cloud him the way the cloud has bent over backwards to be especially fair, if not overly fair to him. >> you know, henry, there was the stark contrast to that very point, that it seemed clear, at least from reading the press over here in london, that donald

trump really craved not just to be friendly with the royal family but to get photo ops with them. >> absolutely. >> he did get photo ops with the older royals but he was very pointedly denied them with meghan markle, prince harry, and kate. he was pointedly denied the opportunity to take advantage of their popularity. it does seem that eagerness was not returned. the british press were very open about reporting that. >> yes. why would prince harry allow trump or his family to mix with his wife when trump called her -- he didn't mean that she was nasty, but he thought she was a nasty person. it was very, very obvious. let's remember, we're very, very aware of what's going on in the united states. you know, crazy town came to london town. this is not normal and we haven't accepted it as normal. here the scrutiny on the press is robust.

it's vicious. and if you can't stand the heat, then you have to get out the kitchen. here in this country if you're not performing well they'll turn you into turn nis, lettuce, they'll create memes about you. when trump comes here and is wandering around westminster abby or is being shown the bedroom where churchill slept or where d-day was planned. you see a guy who at most has another 18 or so months or maybe four years after that, he is not somebody who's respected. we get american news every night on every single bulletin. we get massive coverage in our newspapers and we know what's going on in the states. 4 million britts go to the states. that's more than the 3.8 million u.s. people who come to the u.k. so we're not the 51st state, but we know what's going on and we're not going to accept it and

our newspapers will tear it down. >> yeah. you know, eric, it is a very stylistic difference. >> yeah. >> you did have george conway having to let trump know in the way he does through twitter, scathing. donald trump seems to have had the biggest criticism that cnn was all that he could watch while he was here and he even claimed there were no protests. that's how much he is encased in a fox news world where he's beloved. >> where is that scathing coverage here? yes, we have opinion columnists who have torn trump apart, but the news coverage, gabe was talking about it in "the new york times", if you read the front page coverage of just trump's meeting with the queen and things like that, you would not know that this is off the charts. you would not know that trump is a monster. you wouldn't know he's a bully in a convent. you would know that a slightly eccentric american president went to visit the queen. that doesn't capture any of it, none of it. there is a reserved stylistic

approach that is completely disconnected and the d.c. press is just absolutely wed to this narrative that he's unusual, he's not the normal president but calm down, we'll get through this. and it's -- it's -- it's a huge failure at this point. it just comes into stark relief when he travels to other countries and the other press says, what is going on here? what has happened to america? >> and then, gabriel, i wonder how much of that in your reporting donald trump actually consumes. is he aware of how he's covered in the international press or is he only sifting his coverage of what he sees in "the new york times" or is read to? >> exactly, joy. the president's media consumption consists of what he watches on television, you know, fox news of course, but then he'll tivoar record cnn and msnbc as well. and so he'll watch that and then he relies on what aides print

out or leaves on his desk. he does not read the internet for news so he is -- he's reliant on what the aides present to him. as we know from i know covering his white house, aides generally don't like pointing out bad news to him. if the british press had been writing about him, aides wouldn't have printed it out. >> henry, the final question to you. what do the british public make that theresa may decided the last hooray was to make the royal family do the royal visit? >> she is destined for legacy. on her domestic agenda there's very little to show. very thin grill. it doesn't enhance her, it diminishes her and it shows how desperate she was in her final week to be remembered for

something. >> the dutifulness of the royal family -- >> remember the wink from camila. >> what was it about? twhafs about? >> that wink was to say, these guys are crazy. crazy town has come to our town. we know. when we're not drinking the trump kool-aide, that's what she was saying. >> camila interpreter. eric fuller, always appreciate you. gabe will be right back. coming up, nobody puts trump baby in a corner. that's next. t. woman: (on phone) discover. hi. do you have a travel card? yep. our miles card. earn unlimited 1.5 miles and we'll match it at the end of your first year. nice! i'm thinking about a scuba diving trip. woman: ooh!

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the mother of tamir rice is fighting to make sure the police officer who killed her 12-year-old son does not get his job back. this week samaria rice delivered more than 175,000 petition signatures to the cleveland police union demanding it stop trying to overturn the firing of the police officer who fatally shot tamir in 2014 as he played with a toy pellet gun. he was fired not for the shooting but because he failed to disclose he was forced out of a previous job. he was cleared of violating

departmental policies of shooting tamir. this is what a mother has to do. >> as tireless, overwhelming, emotional this process is, i should not have to fight for this man not to be a police officer in the city of cleveland. he is a dangerous -- he's a danger. >> the police union's effort to reviews lohman's position is still pending. more "am joy" after the break. the lexus es... ♪ ...every curve, every innovation, every feeling... ...a product of mastery. lease the 2019 es 350 for $379/month for 36 months. experience amazing at your lexus dealer.

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well, the britts certainly know that nobody puts baby in the corner, the trump baby, that is. the 20 foot blimp deticketing donald trump as a snarling infant was authorized to fly explicitly by london mayor

sadiq khan. thousands hit the streets to protest trump's visit. while a smaller version was stabbed by a knife wielding trump supporter on tuesday, nevertheless, trump baby persisted joined by a 16 foot statue of trump tweeting on a golden commode. joining me is gabe and sereb, one of the trump inflators. thank you both for being here. i have to go to you first. where did the inspiration for trump baby come from? >> so it was leo who did it first and i think actually he was just spending time thinking about how to protest trump and he had the idea in a bath and leaped out and got in contact with matt and he designed it. they wanted to make something that was funny and also properly

symbolized how we feel about donald trump. >> and the museum of london apparently is now -- is now looking to acquire trump baby and make it part -- a permanent part of the museum's extensive protest collection. this is a museum that chronicles the city back as far as 450,000 b.c. what do you make of the museum of london seeking to add trump baby to its extensive collection? >> it's been -- it's really nice, actually. it shows how important the protest was for london and how many people kind of got behind it. it was a big moment. it did cause a big stir and it is so funny now so i think, yeah. >> is trump baby okay though? we know that a british woman who likes trump, who thinks she's the best person ever, she stabbed him. is he okay? >> yeah, he's going to be fine.

he's in psychological recovery from such a traumatic attack. it was a very symbolic moment of her stabbing trump in the back. >> touche. donald trump obviously is really very sensitive, we'll put it that way. not only did he face trump baby which followed him to ireland as well. you also had these projections that were done by a group that projected on to madam tousseau. hey, real donald trump, we read the story of the u.s. sailors being ordered to hide from you. so we turned this into a giant "u.s.s. john s. mccain." hi real donald trump, you're wildly unpopular here in brittain. sad. people don't like you though they love barack obama. hope you like seeing your

failing numbers projected onto the tower of london. is this something donald trump's staff would keep from him? would he not know he was aloft here? >> at least publicly he said there were no protests and he talked about how close of a relationship he had with the royal family. so at least in trump's mind he was warmly received in the u.k. which brought to mind the way he talked about his close love affair, you know, that him and chairman kim jong-un of north korea fell in love and yet chairman kim is still firing off rockets. so trump has an ability, well worn ability, to live in his own mind and sort of project a reality as he wishes it was. you know, one thing that struck me watching these protests is just how the british are such keen and sharp observers of our politics in a way that i sort of feel cuts to the heart of the matter. one of my favorite shows on television is veep which was created by the british writer

and his previous film, "in the loop" which was one of the sharpest satirizations of the george w. bush years. i think the british understand our politics in a way that we're too close to it and the trump baby is a perfect distillation is that we feel there is a child tyrant in the white house. >> that's a good point. the british do have a quite wry sense of humor and ability to secure the american president in a very unique way. where does that come from? >> well, we've got a big history of political satire in this country. every newspaper has some cutting political cartoon in it every day being churned out. it's part of our history in many ways. also, i think it is having the distan distance. we're not able to vote. we're not able to have those debates that we would normally have. we have to try another tact which is taking it out on people. seems to work with donald trump.

>> the trump baby is a classic. apparently it will now be a museum person. thank you both very much. appreciate it. coming up, donald trump declares victory. victory on tariffs, but as usual, don't believe the hype. this is the couple who wanted to get away who used expedia to book the vacation rental that led to the ride ♪

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he's using tariffs as leverage in trade negotiations

and i think he used them as leverage in this situation quite honestly. >> if these tariffs had gone forward, the deal not struck on friday night with mexico, were gop senators ready to stand up against this president? >> i think we indicated we do not want tariffs long term with mexico. i think the caucus definitely supports the president to use the tariffs to get them to treat us fairly with reciprocal treatment. >> republican senator ron johnson hailed president trump's threat of tariffs as brilliantly executed. he's wrong about everyone in the republican caucus supporting the strategy. here's what roy blunt said moments after that interview. >> well, i talked to the president friday night, actually, and he of course understood that i'm always pretty reluctant to use tariffs. i'm more open the markets kind of guy rather than look for ways to close those markets. i think the president's willingness to use tariffs even though i'm not a big supporter

of tariffs, he is, and his willingness to use that probably helped produce a result. i hope we don't have to go back to that as an issue again with mexico. >> joining me now is peter goodman, global economics correspondent for the "new york times." carol heldman and michael tomasky. i want to go to you first on this, peter goodman. >> sure. >> what is going on here? you have republicans who have been opposed to tariffs, some of them pretending that it was okay that donald trump implemented tariffs with china and was implicating them and now we find out that donald trump 100% backed down, backed all the way down. nothing else happened and that he was pretending that he had gotten a new deal when he in fact did not as reported by your paper. what is going on here? >> well, i mean, we have seen this dynamic before with trump where, you know, we sort of -- we create a crisis, whether that

crisis is north korea or we claim that somehow national security is threatened by continuing to import aluminum and steel from canada and then we have a process of serious threats, markets recoil in horror. we have a lot of hand wringing about potential economic consequences in terms of launching trade war and then the one metric that this president seems to care a lot about is the stock market and there's a debate between the nationalists that enjoy a holy war that will have economic costs and redrawing our relationship with china and fixing the crisis on the border and then we declare victory that involves the rules of the road before the manufactured crisis. >> carol, let me go to you on this as a political scientist. we've seen his support from his

base is impervious to pretty much anything including economic pain. it's likely that his support from the base of the republican party would have survived the economic downturn created by these tariffs. it doesn't seem that that affects his standing with his base nor is this base responsive to the kinds of news we're seeing this week, the overcrowded facilities, the botched family reunions, the report on over crowding in which people were literally piled on top of each other, migrant families. these reports we were talking about with jacob soberoff, spoiled food, over flowing toilets, just disgusting conditions faced by human beings who were trying to migrate to this country. none of that matters in a sense. it doesn't move his poll numbers down. j would donald trump cave now? >> well, i think he did manufacture all of this. i don't think that it's anything legitimate except to throw what

i would call some racist red meat at his base. i actually think these inhumane images and the performance of taking action at the boarder is all about playing to the higher levels of racial resentment in his party. it would be him tn him the elec quotes, in 2016. he was able to galvanize many people with high levels of racial resentment and every time he talks about the border, whether it's this manufactured crisis with the tariffs this past week or whether it was the threat to close the border a month and a half ago, he is so he liddi fieg his base because they're responding to his actions to the racial resentment that he is tapping into. i think it's a plan and it's working well for his base as evidenced by the fact that 91% of republicans stand by him. >> you know, michael, you're going to have a lot of people in the trump base believe that donald trump somehow was

victorious over mexico in this trade war he declared and despite the fact that nothing has changed, he didn't get anything, but he did, to caroline heldman's point, he cracked down on immigration even with the threat of tariffs that would hurt the country. i don't understand the elected republicans. even if trump wouldn't be hurt, they knew they would. which is why they said you can't do this. >> right. >> i want to play you what jim acosta a few minutes ago said talking to a senior official, that's all we know of the descriptor here, a senior official. we don't know who this person is. let me play you what jim acosta says this person said to him. >> he was venting his frustrations, this particular official. we sat down one afternoon to talk about how things were going with this particular source's area of expertise. i don't want to get too deeply into that. plopped down in the seat in front of me and said, the president's insane. i later went back and talked to

this official and said, why did you say that? this official said, really i was just frustrated with the president's lack of understanding about the constitution, the restraints placed on the presidency, guardrails put in place by our founding fathers. the president wanted to know how long you can keep an acting secretary on. it's this kind of belaf i don't remember behind the scenes that frustrates his top officials i think a lot more than people understand. >> michael, have the republicans come to the movie an hour in? no kidding. these are things that have been true since he was running for president. i wonder just from your point of view, is there some point where republicans do decide that their own political fortunes diverge from his? because they are not teflon to the things he's doing to the country. he is with their base. >> in theory, joy, of course there is that point, but, you know, i think right now it exists only in theory.

i mean, they will dessert him wholesale when they think, when their polls tell them that he is going to cost them senate seats and house seats in a big way and not until then. they'll stand up to him on tariffs because on tariffs they hear about it from their donors and from their constituents so they get squeezed from both sides, but for anybody to think that that's going to extend to any other issue i think is just a -- you know, delusional. you're just in fantasy land if you think that. they're not going to dump trump on these issues relating to the constitution, these issues relating to the possible impeachment, to his -- what he's doing to the constitution. they're going to be with him all the way. so tear revesz ariffs is a very and distinct thing. they will continue to be who they have been throughout these 2 1/2 years. >> you know, peter goodman, here in london one of the things you've heard bubble up was this

idea that trump among his many promises of these economic wonders that he could work as president is the idea that he could get hold of the british health services, which is a public health service that they treasure in brittain and try to privatize it and make it open to u.s. nationals and grabbing pieces from it and profiting from it. are those the kinds of things that donald trump is floating that officials think he's going to try to do or is this rhetorical the way the mexico tariffs work? >> well, i mean, it's hard to know how much is pure theater, almost spur of the moment theater, when president trump is wandering around the u.k. i mean, we know that he is friendly with the people who are trying desperately despite tremendous obstacles to deliver brexit and we know that the chief talking point of the conservative party here in brittain is, you know, if we get free of the old antiquated, overly bureaucratic slow growing

european union, we will find our buccaneering future by striking trade deals with the likes of the united states of america. and certainly it was deflating for even members of the conservative party to be, one would hope to say, reminded though maybe this was fresh information for some, that, you know, if you're staking the future on a trade deal with the united states right now, you're dealing with someone who calls himself a tariff man, who says trade wars can easily be won and who will tear up a deal before the deal is even ratified, you know, as seems to be the case with this new nafta that's now been undermined even after the supposed break through on the migration crisis deal. it's very hard to see how any country on earth that's negotiating with the united states now under its current leadership is going to put a lot of stock in the value of any sort of deal. certainly trump talking about privatizing the national health service, which is sacred to

every party in brittain, i think that did shock some people. >> caroline, to that point. i'm glad peter mentioned the so called replacement of what is basically nafta with very little changes. it is remarkable the extent to which trump's authoritarian wishes are when they match what mitch mcconnell already want to do, right? if it's something they already want to do, he can do it. if they are the least bit resistant to t he can't do it. he can do tax cuts, put far right wing judges on but those are things president marco rubio could do that they would like. >> agreed. we are all living in donald trump's reality tv show where he plans episodes, where he can cast himself as the hero so he plans crises, comes in and rescues, you know, the dam sell in distress at the last moment,

if you will. he ends up not actually doing much of anything unless it is something to do with 9 culture wars, which his party has already gotten behind. we see him drumming up anti-lgbtq i.a. sentiment. it flies through whether it's administrative or something that needs to go through the senate. at the end of the day the republican party is with donald trump because he gives them what they want policy wise when it comes to the culture wars. >> that's a good point, will people figure out the tv show is the gong show and republicans can gong donald trump at any moment they want? if trump is so successful in delivering what he's promised at their base? where is the wall? he's saying it's there but it's not. he's saying he's reined in moer mexico, but he's not. why would the republican party need to unleash all of these anti-abortion measures, which do

feel like an attempt to shore up the religious right. >> he has an excuse. that's all our fault. it's the fault of the make it news, america hating this and this and that and he can't lose either way. if he succeeds, he succeeds. he has built the wall. if he fails to build the wall, it's not his fault, it's the fault of all of the afore mentioned. he can't lose that. i think it's worth remembering this. it's very important to point this out in all of these kinds of conversations. his base is 35%, 37%, something like that. when we come to talking about a presidential election, the democrats only need to peel off a few percent. you know, in wisconsin, in michigan, in pennsylvania, in florida which was also a very close state as you know very well and some other states, all close. the democrats only need a few percent. his republican support is not so

monolith. there is some potential for crumbling around the edges and crumbling around the edges is really all the democrats need. >> yeah, it is interesting, peter goodman. you do have some anonymous officials that they say trump is insa insane. are you surprised there have not been more actions, resignations, people saying i cannot be here while tariffs are being implemented that are hurting soy bean farmers and risking the economy? are you surprised? >> it seems like there's been a tremendous churn in this administration. we've seen an awful lot of cabinet member and other levels move on through. it does seem like this tariff issue was special because we're now close enough to 2020 that the thought that you could put a monkey wrench into the auto industry -- let's just pull back and remember that the united states now buys more stuff from

mexico than it does from china and roughly 1/3 of what the u.s. buys from mexico is auto parts and automobiles and a lot of people wake up and go to work in factories in michigan, which i don't have to tell any of you, is a major battleground state, and they're dependent upon buying steel, now constrained by tariffs. buying an awful lot of parts from mexico, and also selling things to mexico that end up sold back to american factories, either in the form of parts or finish automobiles. that looks like a care jie proposition if you're looking at the electoral math in 2020. >> donald trump who claimed to be the boss of the 2020 party can't make them do it. >> thank you very much. always, my friend, thank you so much. coming up, the great michael k. williams will be here to talk about his role in ava duvernet's "when they see us" and that is up next. up next. she's not a baker. she wears that apron to sell insurance.

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i'm trying to. you need to get yourself out of here but you not listening. you've got to listen to me. listen to me! are you not listening to me? when the police want what they

want, they will do anything. do you hear me? anything. they will lie on us. they will lock us up. they will kill us. >> the powerful netflix mini series "when they see us" caught fire this week laying bear the true story of the wrongful conviction of five black and latino teenagers in the infamous central park jogger case in the 1990s. joining me now to discuss is michael k williams who plays the father of antron mcray. one of the teenagers who spent between 6 and 13 years in prison before being completely exonerated by dna evidence. thank you for being here. it's great to talk to you. >> good morning. thank you for having me, joy. >> thank you. you've done some tough roles. people know you from "the wire," "boardwalk empire." how difficult was this? i know it was hard to get

through this and seeing what these boys went through. how hard was it to be on that set and to get through this role? >> it was very hard. at first glance you look at bobby mcray and he made bad choices in regards to how he looked at the situation but i choose to go deeper and figure out what made him tick. what made him feel like his family would be better off without him. and i believe that when the reality of how he was used, his ignorance of the system, when he realized that he was the nail in the sealing of his son's coffin, that guilt and that pain, it made him walk away from his family. >> yeah. i mean, part of the challenge for antron mcray's dad was his own experience with incarceration, his own fear of the system. one of the things that was so

ze searing in your performance is we are helpless. antrum was one of the littlest ones. he looked like a baby. it had to be tough for you to deal with that. what do you think this film will do for people who watch it? >> well, i hope that -- i know it's going to make a lot of people angry. i hope we take the anger as a community and start the narrative. this is still happening. although this is 30 years ago, people are still being wrongfully convicted and primarily in communities that look like mine, that look like the communities where these five men came from. so i hope that that "when they see us" will strike the narrative. >> one of the things that has changed, a lot of people weren't aware of linda ferestine. she seemed to be pushing to make sure that these boys went to

prison. she has now lost her publishing deal. she was a best selling crime novel author. she's been pushed off of the board of her alma mater, vassar college. do you think that that's the appropriate response for these two prosecutors, the other is elizabeth lederer who is at columbia university. is that the correct response that they should not have celebrated careers after what they did? >> you know, you can't give back what these five men lost. there is no -- there is no amount of money that you can give them, there is no amount of people you can fire, you know, that can give these five men what they -- what was taken from them. what i would love to see is a public apology. no one has apologized to these men yet to my knowledge. i can't speak to what banning

her books would do to her, if it's going to change her mind or soften her heart to the truth, but i would hope that that would happen, that she would come to some light or some of these people that had a part in this wrongful conviction would be driven to -- would be moved to apologize, at least just say i'm sorry for what you went through. >> yeah. yeah. i want to turn and talk about your project. you have a project called "ra d "raised in the system." tell us about that project. >> i found myself talking to then president obama and he was asking me my opinion on the criminal justice system and i had a light bulb moment and i talked to my producers at adviceland. i've never been in prison but i've been visiting prison since

17 years old. why does everybody in my community make these choices? why does the end of the road end up like this, incarceration, jails, institution and death in my community? they ask me, what was the age when your friends and family started getting put in the system? i told them their age and they came back and said, oh, this sounds like the school to prison pipeline. the gold for that documentary, the blessing in that documentary is that's the gift to god from me to my community. my nephew dominic and i who has been exonerated -- excuse me, who got clemensed for good service inside, he and i take that documentary, we go into the

community and we screen it and we engage in dialogue and narrative with our community, whether it be kids, police officers, politicians and we get the conversation happening. that's what i've been doing. >> michael, "raised in the system" is the film. "when they see us" is the film. i'm sure they're edified by your work you've done. >> thank you. >> more "am joy" after the break. joy" after the break. s go. limu's right. liberty mutual can save you money by customizing your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. oh... yeah, i've been a customer for years. huh... only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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