ever since he's been no stranger to attacking and undermining the free press. well, it happened again last night. this time trump accused "the new york times" of committing, quote, a virtual act of treason after the newspaper reported that the u.s. has escalated cyber attacks against russia's electric power grid. "the new york times" replied to trump late last night tweeting, quote, accusing the press of treason is dangerous. "the times" also noted that administration officials believed trump had not been briefed over details of the program because they were afraid he would tip off russian officials. "the times" reported, quote, pentagon and intelligence officials described broad hesitation to go into detail with trump about operations of russia for concern of his reaction and the possibility he might countermand it or discuss it with foreign officials as he did in 2017 when he mentioned a sensitive operation in russia to the -- in syria to the russian

foreign minister. joining me now our msnbc legal analysts cynthia, and glen kergsner, and malcolm nance. even though it's sunday and i'm alert and awake, clearly i can't read. thank you very much for being here. you know, the idea that intelligence officials are not comfortable sharing intelligence information with the president of the united states really shows still 2 1/2 years into his presidency shows that we are in new rather dangerous territory, isn't that right, malcolm? >> we are absolutely in dangerous territory. and the danger here is not that intelligence officials are not sharing information with the president. they are doing that because they have an obligation to it constitution of the united states to protect, defend, and

uphold the constitution. the problem is they cannot trust the president of the united states with the details of highly sensitive classified information because he may, as the report said, either have an overreaction to this or share that information with a foreign power. with this specific story in "the new york times" it is clearly a highly compartmented special access program that was authorizized in a very general way where trump thought he was giving broad authority to these commanders to go out and carry out intelligence collection without having to trouble him, the national security counsel and through the secretary of defense, which was secretary mattis at the time. in this particular circumstance donald trump was not given information that of the details because technically he not only didn't have a need to know, he wouldn't want to know. >> actually, to that point we

should point out that in that "the new york times" story it says that two administration officials say -- said they believed mr. trump had not been briefed in any detail about the steps to place implants, software code that can be used for surveillance or attack inside the russian grid. again, to the overall point we've been talking about, it's extraordinary for the president of the united states wasn't briefed on this. let me get your reaction. >> jonathan, i hate to start this way on a beautiful sunday morning, father's day of all things, but this really is going to prove to be a lose, lose, lose, and here's why. first of all it's understandable as malcolm said meantgon officials might be reluctant to give the pentagon information about sensitive information about our attempts to counter

russian interference in our affairs. we all saw, for example, the president inviting the russians into the office after he fired fbi director james comey and telling them i just fired the nut job so the pressure is off on this russia thing. so it's not a surprise pentagon officials would be reluctant to share information with the president. however, what that does is sets up this argument that there's a shadow government within a government operating separate and apart from the president. now, that may be necessary to protect american interests but it's not sustainable and it's deeply troubling. the other way this is loss, i think, for everybody is it gives these deep state conspiracy theorists something to argue about that, you know, i think adds fuel to their fire. and then the third loss, jonathan is that don't we think we might now see president trump

directing his attorney general barr to open an investigation into the pentagon and barr being no more independent, frankly, than a tapeworm and will probably sheepishly go along with-touch mesothat is lose, lose, lose for our country. >> that's a perfect segue for cynthia. pick up what glen was talking about. how extraordinary would that be if the president were to do what glen just mentioned, in normal times what glen just said it would be written off as just conspiracy theory theorizing how can we take that seriously. but in the age of donald trump that could really happen. >> it could happen, and he could also just force the defense department to stop the program, which would be very bad for the country. glen's right. it's a concern we have this level of career people who feel they have interests -- the interests of the country are different from the president.

and while that's a lose, it's very important we have those people and career officials to do that for us. i find it hard to believe he would go ahead and request the attorney general to do that, but he may be having some back and forth with the defense secretary. we understand from the public reporting he does not like the new acting defense secretary and this could be one of the reasons because he does not like programs like this. >> let's bring into the conversation jill wine-banks, former assistant watergate special counsel. before we brought you in glen was talking about mentioning how what's happening could feed into some of the deep state conspiracy theories. and i want to show you a tweet that president trump sent out last night, one of many, where it says anything goes with our corrupt news media today. they will do or say whatever it takes with not even the slightest thought of consequence. these are true cowards, and without doubt the enemy of the

people, all caps, exclamation point. skr jill, let me get your reaction to that. >> there are two reactions. one is that this is just more of the same in terms of his attack on the free press, which is a significant danger to democracy. and the other is that it's false and phony because this story was based on conversations with his own officials who all spoke openly to "the new york times," who shared the information, who probably fear what donald trump might do to this program were he to have been briefed on it. that is a danger, but he is a danger now to democracy. so we have to take these steps and we have to be grateful for a free press for protecting us. >> well, to your point, jill, you know, "the new york times" reported yesterday that both general nakasona and mr. boulten

declined to comment but also said they had no national security concerns about the details of "the new york times" reporting about the targeting of the russian grid, perhaps an indication that some of the intrusions were intended to be noticed by the russians. malcolm, do you buy that? is that the reason -- the reason why this was done? to get the notice of the russians. >> you know, there's several different reasons why we carry out these special access activities. and many a times we want our opponents to know some of our capabilities. we do that with terrorists often. we actually can disarm them by letting them know we know how they're going to carry out their attacks, and that forces them to go into a very narrow planning loop. with regards to the russians themselves, the russians are pretty savvy. they know that any nation state is going to have some

preparations to defend themselves and carry out offensive operations. the only question here is whether they felt comfortable that the president of the united states would be on their side and would be neutralizing these programs. that being said, the department of defense -- the national security agency is under the control of the department of defense. it is a department of defense asset. and that being said, their job is to carry out defensive systems and be prepared for defensive operations in case of war. any president that would put a stop to these or question these unless of course they're actually carrying out illegal acts, which i don't think they are. they're just preparing, then the president of the united states' own decision making process is either compromised or would have to be questioned. >> what's the remedy here? in reading the stories and listening to the conversation in normal times you could turn to congress and depend on congress

in a bipartisan fashion jumping up and saying, mr. president, what you are doing is, you know, putting our national security at risk. democrats control the house, and we know the big conversation happening over in the house. but at what point do republicans step up, say senator lindsey graham who is apparently a foreign policy expert, step in and say to his golfing buddy, mr. president, what you are doing is putting us at risk. glen, i'm going to throw that to you. >> jonathan, that's the perfect question. what is the remedy here because we have republicans who refuse to stand up to a president who has shown himself that he's willing to do russia's bidding all day every day. you have democrats who seem to be a little bit too timid in opening impeachment hearings, so we can begin to see for ourselves as the american public what this criminal president has done. so where does that leave us? it leaves us with the hundreds

of thousands of patriotic federal employees, department of defense and otherwise having to make these difficult decisions. do i keep things from the president in my attempts to protect the country, or do i resign in protest and begin to speak out about what i'm seeing inside government, the corrosion of our nation's security by this president? and the federal workers should not be put in that position. that's why it's up to the republicans and the democrats to be the remedy here. >> well, you know, i'm glad you said that, cynthia, and i'm hoping you can answer this question. but to glen's point, what protections do federal workers have because i could see a situation where given this story and some other stories out there that some president and folks within his administration will seek retribution against those who aren't putting out -- leaking out these stories.

>> well, first of all, let me just say i agree the republicans are going to do nothing and your desire that lindsey graham comes to save the day, i'm afraid, is not going to happen. public employees should be very careful because the president -- the president can make their life miserable. and one of the weird things about whistle blowers is how much money it costs them when they want to defend themselves against the government when it's going after them wrongfully. they end up spending a lot of money on lawyers and it's a real problem for whistle blowers. so somehow these poor people have to try to figure out a way to stay under the radar and still get the information out, and it's very difficult to put them in, and all we can do is support them because clearly the president is more interested in whatever his relationship is with russia than he is with

protecting the country against russia and their incursions into our power grid. >> jill, let me throw the last question to you and just a segue of what cynthia was talking about, as a former watergate special prosecutor, what message would you send not just to federal employees who might be caught in this difficult spot but to members of congress who are looking for the courage, the strength or the spine to stand up to the president of the president of the united states in a situation like this? >> jonathan, that is the key question is when will a republican grow a spine and when will someone stand up to the president? when will there be a john dean who goes to the president and says there is a cancer growing on the presidency and we must stop it? in this case, of course, the cancer is the president. so i don't know how you tell the president that he is the problem, but i think that we need to have someone who he

respects say that to him. i don't expect it to be linda graham. he has shown who he is now. but i do remember the days of bipartisanship, which is what is required. i remember it was republicans who went to president nixon and said you have no more support in the senate. you have gone from a high approval rating to none, and that was at the facts came out. so to me the key here is let's have public hearings, let the american people and the members of congress who are still standing behind the president, let them know the facts and let them know their constituents know the facts so they have to act on those facts, and there are only one set of facts. whatever is being reported that is not consist with those, and by that i mean the conservative news media that lead people to say, well, i had no idea that there was anything negative in the mueller report, we need

people to know what this particularly threat to america is and how significant it is and why we need to have this counter intelligence ability and act on it. >> jill wine-banks thank you very much for being on this show. cynthia and glen will join us later in the show. coming up, new polling that should have donald trump worried about the "i" word. that's next. worried about the "i" word that's next. -driverless cars... -all ground personnel... ...or trips to mars. $4.95. delivery drones or the latest phones. $4.95. no matter what you trade, at fidelity it's just $4.95 per online u.s. equity trade. no mattthe ♪exus es...de, at fidelity ...every curve, every innovation, every feeling... ...a product of mastery. lease the 2019 es 350 for $379/month for 36 months. experience amazing at your lexus dealer.

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the republicans in the senate, every single one of them that i see know this is a witch hunt. they get it 100%. and that's what matters. the democrats are going to do it only because they might think it helps thel. i think it actually hurts them in the election. >> donald trump may think it's the democrats in congress who are out to get him, but it appears that more american voters support impeachment, too. fresh new polling out this morning by nbc news and "the wall street journal" shows just a 44% approval rating for trump, a number that has remained somewhat stagnant, but the same poll also shows that 27% of americans say there's enough evidence to begin impeachment hearings now, up 10 points from last month's poll. joining me now former federal prosecutor and msnbc political -- i'm sorry -- legal analyst paul butler and cynthia and back with me.

and joining us carlos carbello. okay, before we went on-air the president of the united states sent out this tweet. a poll should be done on which is the more dishonest and deceitful newspaper. they were both a disgrace to our country, the enemy of the people, but i just can't seem to figure out which is worse. the good news is that at the end of six years after america has been made great again and i leave the beautiful white house, parenthesis, do you think the people would demand i say longer, question mark, all caps, keep america great, end parenthesis. both of these horrible papers will quickly go out of business and be forever gone. the key thing here is that parenthetical comment. do you think the american people -- paul, help me here. the president sounds like he's

signaling or saying flat out what makeal cohen has been saying from the very beginning that president trump might not leave after his constitutional duty of either one term or two terms in the white house. >> so again the president loves to talk about treason. treason is defined in the constitution as going to war against the united states or providing aid and comfort to the enemy, and so we can ask whether what "the new york times" published, which was an article suggesting our intelligence does not trust the president of the united states. they are unwilling to provide him with sensitive classified information because they'll think he'll spill the beans to the russian oz, and we don't know whether that's because he's ignor want, he doesn't know he shouldn't tell the russians this information or worse, whether he wants to help the russians. and the constitutional remedy is impeachment, and that brings us to the politics. >> right, and congressman, i

mean the democrats control the house which is where impeachment proceedings start, and there's a big democratic majority, so the president could be impeached, but the problem is when those charges go to the senate where the trial happens, and that's controlled by the republicans, and that's not going to happen now. between what we know about the intelligence community not sharing intelligence with the president and now this tweet hinting that he might not leave after his constitutional term limits on his tenure in the white house, at what point does congress in general and do republicans in particular stand up to this president and say this will not happen? okay, we're having a problem with your mic, congressman. cynthia, i knoll you're not a republican, you're not a former

politician, but let me throw that out to you. just from a legal standpoint, at what point do members of congress step in and say to the president in some form or fashion, whether it's impeachment proceedings or lindsey graham trooping over to the white house saying, well, mr. president -- >> give up hope on that. >> keep going. >> listen, here's the thing about the impeachment numbers that i can see and that is that nancy pelosi, one of the great vote counters of all-time says there's only about 25% of people in the democratic caucus, congress people who are ready to go towards impeachment. they're not ready yet. and the numbers from the nbc poll are about 27% of democrats, so that sort of lines up. and we also know there are no democrats in the 17 swing state democrats who were just elected in 2018 who are now advocating for impeachment. it is not going to happen right now.

so the question is what do we do about it because we vicinity a serious amount of information the president is corrupt and has obstructed justice and may or may not have a strange relationship with russia. i think what they ought to do is combine these different committees that are looking into the president, have a select committee look into the evidence, get these witnesses to finally show up. it's outrageous that witnesses are getting subpoenas and they aren't coming to congress, or they're thinking about coming to congress. i mean, when i threw a subpoena out during the grand jury process and it said you come tuesday at 9:00 a.m. you either came tuesday at 9:00 a.m. or you got cuffs on. so i don't understand this i'm thinking about coming and negotiating. that isn't part of my legal experience. they need to do something. they need to get these witnesses, get these documents and do the investigation. >> we've got congressman back. now that we can hear you, my question to you was about republicans and when are republicans going to go to the

president and say this is unacceptable this cannot stand? >> right, so that's one of the two big questions, jonathan. republicans other than justin amash, and then i think the other big question here is how much pressure can nancy pelosi take? we know for now she's wanted to put the brakes and all the impeachment talk but as more and more democrats throughout the country start favoring impeople lt, as more presidential candidates start calling for impeachment how long can the speaker of the household off? there are a lot of moderate republicans in the house who do not want to go down this route but i certainly see the pressure increasing and today's poll numbers are an indication of that. >> cynthia, raises a very good point i'm not a lawyer but i'm old enough to remember just the word subpoena would send shivers down the spine of anyone. not in trump's white house, not

in trump's america. >> again, it's another way they're not just violating constitutional norms but violating the law. if you get a subpoena you have to respond in some way. and when they have this scorched earth, we're not going to cooperate with congress, that's unconstitutional and illegal. but one thing we know about speaker pelosi is she's a boss. so if she wants the house to vote to impeach the president that won't happen. i think her calculus now is that she wants us to keep our eye on the prize. the prize is removing trump from office, and she thinks in some ways impeachment is counter productive. it would get in the way because that fires up trump's base. i still don't quite get that math because i think the idea is that if there is -- if there are impeachment hearings then all of trump's dirt comes out. and it's not just -- it's there now in the mueller report but most americans haven't read it.

if they hear it and see it, see robert mueller talking about those ten times the president tried to obstruct justice, again i think that fires up independence. so i don't think those hearings they get in the way of getting trump out of office, i think they help that effort. >> do i have time to play the sound i wanted to play? let's play this. actually to your point, paul. >> if you answer these questions to me now why not answer them to robert mueller under oath? >> because they were looking to get us for lies, for slight misstatements. >> you didn't answer questions on obstruction. >> wait a minute, i did answer questions. i answered them in writing. >> not obstruction. >> i don't know. i answered a lot of questions. >> not on obstruction. >> george, you're being a little wise guy which is, you know, typical for you. just so you understand, very simple. it's very simple. there was no crime. >> special counsel mueller

before congress testifying openly about all of that that the president just said would be edifying. paul and cynthia will join us later. thank you so much, congressman, for being here. coming up, the latest 2020 polls. that's next. p, the latest 2020 polls. that's next. ♪ [ laughter throughout ] it's funny what happens when people get together. we're there. so you can be too. holiday inn. holiday inn express.

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it's way too early to talk about polls. i think the way that we win is to go out and talk to people all across this country about our plans for the future, about our vision, about what we're really willing to get in there and fight for. i think that's going to be the big difference. >> although joe biden maintains a consistent lead in most 2020 polls elizabeth warn, bernie sanders and pete buttigieg are slowly inching their way closer to biden's lead. the newest poll released this week show sanders, warren, buttigieg have all received a slight boost since may compared to a 5 point drop for biden. but it will all be tested this month in miami, florida, when the biggest 2020 hopefuls finally go to head in the first set of democratic debates. joining me now is tiffany cross,

former obama advisor, watkins, and amy anderson. thank you all very much for being here. tiffany, since you have homefield advantage here what do you make of vice president biden's slight dip in that q poll? >> every time we say the same thing but it's so early. look, in my lifetime i remember michael decaucus was leading in the polls at some point, al gore was leading at some point, ross purow gained traction at some point. in 2008 hillary clinton was the front-runner, you know, when barack obama came on the scene. look, there's a lot of name recognition obviously with joe biden, but i think we have a long way to go. we're still 200 days out from super tuesday. we're still even more than that from the general election, so there's name recognition, a certain level of nustal ju, but joe biden has never really on a

federal level had to carry a ticket by themselves and i think voters are going to examine his long legislative record and history, and they're judging him through a 2019 lens and once you get on a debate stage and they start swiping at each other i think we might see his polls take a dip. so there's nothing against him but we just have a long way to go. >> amy, from your perspective as founder of she the people, this field and the debates we're about to see, what are you going to be looking for and are you looking for the folks on the stage with vice president biden on that second night or on the first night when he's not there? do you think the candidates are going to focus theirire on him or president trump or talk issues or do all of the above? >> if they're smart they're going to focus their attention on doing two things. one is to recognize and speak directly to the core of the

base. i've been saying from day one that women of color have been here to for acknowledged in building momentum. i think joe biden's dip is showing he's been tone-deaf to the kind of political hopes and dreams of black men and women of color. and that i agree with tiffany has resulted in dip. and i think on the stage the candidates are going to be really smart to speak to the politics, economic, racial justice. to speak about how they're going to build a coalition. and that should be the focus of this first debate instead of taking a swipe at trump. because from women of colors perspective we already knew and voted in 2016, we knew trump was bad news. so that's not the motivating factor. what's going to build momentum is to articulate a vision for the campaign that really mobilizes and inspires black women and other women of color. >> so to that point and let me

bring in lori to talk about this, there's a new poll from south carolina, and take a look at these numbers. vice president biden 37%, and the interesting stat here is mayor pete buttigieg at 11% of the vote. i remember a poll out maybe late last month or a couple of weeks ago where mayor pete's standing among black votes in south carolina, he got a big fat 0%, the fact he's at 11% in a south carolina poll, am i to take from that that he is garnering 1% or some kind of support from african-american voters? >> what i would say is, you know, remember a few weeks back mayor pete was saying some disparaging comments about quote-unquote identity politics. and when he came back with that zero from south carolina he

realized there's no path to victory in winning over black voters in south carolina, so he's made some major changes, did some hiring of really top flight african-american staff advising him. and he has embraced some of the issues in order to really appeal to black voters, and i think he may be breaking in. it's going to take a lot more than that to bring relationships and actually mobilize voters on the grounds but it shows he's making inroads. i think what's interesting about his candidacy is that he's connecting his own lgbt status with black millennials and saying, look, there's some ways i can appeal to the young demography of that state. i think the debate is also going to show we're going to see a realignment with not only mayor pete but other candidates. i think it's an indicator and

undersamples black women in that particular poll. so i think we should take the results of that poll with a grain of salt. >> let me bring you in here on this question of that south carolina poll we're looking at here and the 11% mayor pete buttigieg is garnering there. what do you make of that bump up in support for him in that state, that very important state? >> thank you for vag me on, jonathan. i see a bump because before he was not even anywhere near 1%, and now he's come between two african-american candidates, kamala harris and cory booker. i think that's shown a lot. he's been able to gain that ground in just 30 days. he's making inroads, he's communicating to voters that amy was saying that people have been marginalized. he understands what that feels like to be slighted against, feel marginalized and slighted.

also, south carolina, independents, women, people of color, these are the folks that need to be communicated to. and we were talking about the debate that's happening at the end of the month in my home state and in the state of florida. another state that's incredibly diverse, the president is going there next week to het up central florida to talk to the puerto rican community. people have to get out and talk to people of color, minorities, latino community and the black community and not forget about these important groups, these voting blocks that are going to be the determining factor in the general election. >> yeah, i'll sort of jump in there. look i think you made good points. i think the key thing that really helps mayor pete this election cycle is the fact he put out policy this week. and the plan that spoke specifically to economic prosperity for african-americans. and i think that's something people had been long waiting to hear from poout buttigieg. and listen you have to earn this

vote, and he is really trying hard to earn it. his rapid response director is a black woman, so i think his staff is starting to reflect what people wanted to see, but again it's a long way to go. like elizabeth warren has been putting out policy, and i want to quickly touch on what she said about coming between two african-american candidates. yeah, he did that. but i think it's a false narrative that all black people are going to automatically fall into cory booker or elizabeth warren's camps. people vote for the candidate who speaks to them, and african-american, puerto rican, mexican-american, asian-american, whichever then that's the person who you align with. so i think we'll continue to see more of that as policy speaks to the different communities. >> one of the things that's impressed me when it comes to mayor pete buttigieg and speaking to issues important to african-americans, he was on the

breakfast club a few months ago and he was asked flat out, what's your agenda for black america, and he said without flinching, well first item is entrepreneurship, second is homeownership, and to me it's impressive because you had a candidate who was asked about his agenda and it didn't start with justice. entrepreneurship is huge. we're running out of time but i've got to play this mashp because even though we know president trump is going to factor prominently in the debate and joe biden is going to be the one everyone is going to be taking shots at, let's take a look at the interplay between president trump and former vice president joe biden. >> and you see that with biden we would never be treated with respect because people don't respect him. even the people that he's running against. >> i have absolute power. no, you don't, donald trump.

or only i can fix it. fix yourself first, donald trump. >> joe biden is a dummy. >> i believe that the president is literally an existential threat to america. >> okay, real quickly i'm going to start with you, amy. real quickly, is it sustainable for these two guys in a primary season to pretend like they are running a general election campaign already? >> absolutely not. in a crowded field i really think the electorate, and we're acknowledging it's people of color, women of color who are going to be the core vote, are looking for inspirational politics of justice, and this kind of tit for tat back and forth is not going to cut it. >> lori? >> i agree. you cannot let the president take all the oxygen out of the room. it's imperative these candidates remain disciplined, disciplined and focusing on the message, the message of the week. you've got to keep drilling

down, offering details to voters because that's what they're looking for. >> let asinine people say asinine things. do not get into this foolish back and forth, joe biden. that's ridiculous. >> tiffany and laurie will join us again in our next hour. thank you very much amy allison. nothing up ten presidential candidates will have to face joy reid on monday. we'll tell you all about it next. reid on monday we'll tell you all about it next ♪

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why revive the poor people's campaign and how will that effort be new and different this time around? >> we need a revival to deal with systematic racism and pr e poverty. we have to have something to focus on trump and the state capitol and we have to have an offense to bring people together. >> tomorrow in washington, d.c., ten presidential contenders will join my next guests at the poor people's campaign to explain how they plan to help 140 million poor income people living in thenitis. joining me now is bishop william

barbara who'll be comoderating the forum. bishop barbara, thank you very much for being on the show. >> thank you, so much. >> it is great to be with you and i just want to add that the poor people's campaign, the two of us will be raising questions and mainly poorly impacted people. the stage is built for representatives of the 140 million poor people, 43.5% of this nation that will be raising questions to our presidential candidate. >> let me share with the viewers, something you said yesterday that speaks to why you're doing what you are doing tomorrow, take a listen. i will read it to you. during the 2016 presidential primaries and campaign, there were 26 televised debates but

not a single hour was devoted how candidates would address america's poverty, barber says in a statement announcing the forum. republicans talked ant the economy while democrats speak about the middle class. nobody spoke about the poor. forcing those empowered to listen. and so this is the country's opportunity but also the candidates' opportunity to talk specifically and directly to those issues of concerns? >> yes, jonathan, this campaign is connected to tens and tens of thousands of people. 41 districts of columbia. we now we have the over the wall poverty. when you look at the justice systematic system and ecological

devastation and the economy and religious nationalism, they are very real and impacting 140 million people. let me put that into context. our 39 million children in poverty, 74.2 million women are in poverty. 26 million black people in poverty. but, 66 million white people in poverty. 40 million more than the number of black people in poverty. >> i am from the south jonathan. one-third of that 40 million is from the south. low wages and lack of healthcare states. most of the people are being heard in the states they are getting elected are poor, white people. we are bringing all of those together, latinos and asians and saying we are in a moral crisis and we can't have another season

of election where we talk about the wealthy and the middle class and tax cuts and we do not talk specifically about what are the agenda items for the poor 43.5% of this nation. >> there are ten democratic candidates who are going to be on the forum tomorrow. have any of these candidates you were looking at, have they already issued policy positions or papers that address the issues of poverty that you think that they should be addressing? >> well, we hear in bits and pieces. we are talking about an int interlocking justice to a comprehensive. we can't talk about ending poverty or generation. that's 40 years.

some people would be dead. tomorrow we are releasing a moral poverty justice budget. we are going to be listening intently and not just about what you say or using the word moral or poverty. how are you addressing these interlocking injustice. 62 million people in work everyday for less than minimum wage. 37 people not needing healthcare. we'll be listening, that's why poor and impact people are going to tell their stories and ask questions from their perspective so this is no longer about stats. we are putting a face on this statistic. they'll all be there with us. >> bishop barer, thank yber, th being on the show. you can watch the live stream, the forum tomorrow on msnbc.com.

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it is biblical to enforce the law that's actually worked in a number of times in the bible. it is not what i said and i know it is hard for you to understand even short sentences, i guess. >> what you just did is inflammatory for people all over the country. the president is right and

everybody out here is fake news. >> if anything that's in flamed, it is the dishonesty that's taken place by the media. >> can you state which outlets that you and the president regard as the enemy of people. >> i am not going to walk through a list but those individuals know who they are? >> would that include my outlet? >> i don't think it is necessary specific. >> good morning. welcome back to "am joy," in for joy reid. those are some of sarah sanders's greatest hits, back when she use to give press daily givings. it has been more than three months since the last one. trump announced sanders' departure on thursday marking a press secretary who have bended all traditional norms of the

role. according to the mueller report, by just flat out lying. joining me now is tiffany cross of the bcd and terra adele. and eric dagans and laurie watki watkins. terrance, you are the newest member here, why don't we start with you. the new york times has this quote here. others argued that mr. trump never liked the daily briefing as a form to dissimileminate messages of the day. do you think we witness the end of having a white house press secretary? >> absolutely. absolutely. trump wants to speak directly to

people he knows he dan use his twitter account to do so. one of the things that made syr sarah huckabee sanders last so long was he was looking for someone like trump. he was looking for someone that's combative and someone that's going to lie shamelessly. if you notice what she does is she double downs on the lie once she is called o ut on the lie. what they want to do is strategy. i think people need to keep this front and center. what they want to do is create so much confusion among the american public that people can't figure out what's true or not true. in large part, they have been successful. >> eric, let me bring you into this conversation, as tara is speaking, any time i heard

sanders speak anywhere and any member of this administration, i no longer feel they are talking to me as a citizen of the united states. i feel they are specifically talking to just one person and audience of one. that's what the president of the united states. do you have that impression? is that something that's sustainable if there is another white house press secretary? >> certainly the longest lasting membe member of the president's inner circle has been those that kept his interest first and spoken to him first when they spoke publicly. one of the things the president has done is he's governing by speaking to his base exclusively and inviting the rest of us to go along for the ride. sarah huckabee sanders echoes that perfectly. she spoke to him directly and

through him, echoes the interest of his base. she has been one of the more effective members of his inner circle and i think that's why she lasted so long. one of the questions i have is can anyone replace her? can anyone do what she's done because she put his interest above her own interest. her credibility is pretty low at this point. i wonder what she has available to her outside of conservative media, given out of misstatements and truths and lies she told on behalf of this president. >> eric, as brought it out, who can replace her? > >> there are names that are out there. stephanie gresham and hogan

gidley and steve kor tecortes. sarah sanders changed the mood in the daily press room. i remember a long time ago when i used to book jonathan, the people in that room during the obama administration and every other administration, these were hard core journalists, they were there to get the story. the people in the room were sick and basement bloggers, they were not trained journalists, and there is incidents where people would -- kristen welker, she would have to ask are you a journalist? who are you? why are you in this room? you remember sarah sanders lied

saying jim acosta assaulted the interns. these were dangerously happening. donald trump wants that kind of person. hogan is a top contender. stephanie gisham is the top spot. >> margaret sullivan has a column out where she calls out sarah sanders where she writes, should we claim to represent the truth of behalf of the president who lies. she did it disrespectfully and without shame sor understanding what the role of white house press secretary should be. she misled reporters and misled the american people. in the end, that is what the

press secretary's job is, even though they are appointed by the president of the united states to be his spokesperson to the american people. she did not do that. she didn't have the interests of the american people or freedom of the press at heart. >> no. she never did. it was apparent everyday either she did speak or any reference to sarah sanders. what i am constantly reminded of what's going on with this lack of the press and administration is what's going on in turkey and freedom of the press is nonexistence. i feel that's what's happening on a daily bases. the role itself has been eliminated. if a person is -- i really believe it is going to be a name only. the president does speak for himself, he has his own microphone and his own platform

and news and networks to help him do that. having a person there to play defense on a daily bases, that's number one for the president. someone that's absolutely loyal and trust worthy to him and put him before themselves which is what sarah sanders did. >> eric, let me play something for you when halie jackson interviewed the guy who had the job before sarah sanders with sean spicer. >> sarah sanders acknowledged she did not always tell the truth to reporters. let me ask you, do you regreat setting that president for dishonesty when you were at the podium. >> no. >> not at all? none of the things you said were not true? >> you said you regreat st -- id there were times i should have done a better job.

there are times i hope to god that you will look back at some of your shows or questions and say wow, i was not the best reporter i could have been. >> i mean with that, eric, compare to sarah huckabee sanders and sean spicer, do the members of the white house press briefing room have anything to apologize for in the way that sean spicer is talking about? >> well, i don't know. i have not chronicle every minute of how reporters conducted themselves in the briefing room. i will say that there is a code for pr communication professionals. i spoke at a pr gathering professional here in florida a few weeks ago. part of that code is not to lie. it is not part of the job to advance your employer's interest at the expense of the truth. that's the problem that i think

we have with sarah huckabee sanders. there is situations where she either knew she was not telling the truth or clearly should have known she is not telling the truth, instead went ahead and proliferated a message that was misleading to reporters and by extension the american people. and, for someone like sean spicer to not acknowledge that he did that and she also did that is part of the problem. and before i bring terra to amplify your point. in the mueller report, it was said on specifically, countless fbi agents told me they lack confidence in james comey. sanders told this, her reference hearing from countless members of the fbi was a quote, slip of the tongue just to amplify it. you were nodding vigorously when aaron was talking a moment ago. >> i will take his point even

further. the new way that we approach things and i should not say new because i have always approached it that way. encourage the client if they do something or if they make a mistake or do something wrong to own that mistake. whether it is a statement or any sort of public pronouncement that they own it and take full responsibility and offer how they're going to rectify it. in the past it was more about you want to protect the client but never ever in the way that this administration has done. it is in more of the way of defending the client and having the client take full responsibility but never out right lying. that's never part of pr professionals and i worked on campaigns and in the private sector and government clients and with clients across the board and that's never been. what they are doing is

unprecedented. >> i think you know i look at how reporters conducted themselves in the briefing room, there is some solidarity that come out of it. i don't know if you remember she used the cut people off and interrupt people. she cut-off a reporter and he said you know, i think it was halie. halie, you can go ahead and ask your question. that makes so much sense. i wish there were times when jim acosta of the back and forth, imagine what every reporter in the room, i concede my time to jim acosta. i know we can speculate on who's going to take this new role, i don't think this news impacts anybody at all except whoever writes the craontract for news. the next person that comes on is more of the same and dishonesty. >> you took away many i last question, i was going to put you on the spot, in a normal

presidency and a normal world who would make an incident next white house press secretary. if anyone has the name shout it out. otherwise, i am going to commercial. >> does not matter. >> i think we'll see donald trump himself will take the podium everyday. i think he's going to start to come to the podium just how he plays with reporters on his way to some airplane some where and sounds more ridiculous. >> and do it online. the quality of the air sound is muddled. no one can understand what he's saying and it gives him the opportunity to go and defend and walk back statements that he previously stated which are dangerous. >> tell us we didn't hear what we heard. >> right. >> that has happened a lot. >> on that note, we are going to go to a break. tiffany and terra will be back. eric and laurie, thank you for being on. >> happy father's day.

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threats. is it government that works extremely well or giant oil company stepping on a drill everywhere. just not for the rest of us, you see climb change barrelling down. >> 2020 democrats are gearing up for the first presidential debate in miami. a city that signs will be under water by the end of the century if climate change is not addressed. a recent polling, climb chanatee is ranked as the second most issue as to healthcare. dnc chair tom perez says it would be unfair to host a debate on one issue when there are so many high priority issues. climate change has taken center stage precisely because it has high stakes especially for low

income community of color. tiffany cross is back with me and jacqueline patterson. all thank you very much for being on the program. jacqueline, let me start with you. this sort of amplifies why climate change is such an important issue for the african-american community of color. more likely to live near polluting industry. african-americans three times likely to die from asthma-related causes than white americans. latinos 50% live in areas where air quality standards do not meet epa standards. jacqueline, talk more about this. >> yeah, i think you pointed out

of the challenges of the driver of climate change whether it is the cold fire power plants or african-americans living in counties of violation of air pollution standards or the false solutions or as we talk about needing to phase out coal because its polluting practices. when i was in the four corner region west, i was struck by how many mine workers where their impact are some severe. so it is institutionallize those impacts. >> the new movie that's out in san francisco, the opening scene is talking about environmental justice and how the water in

this black kmooucommunity is so hazardous and there is a little girl that's skipping her way with no protection at all. let me bring you in, have you listen to rafael sorio in the wake of hurricanof hurricanewak. >> in the ofrt theend there for listeners, he says i used to think the hurricane is so strong that there is no one living here anymore. do you share that sentiment. is that shared from where you are? >> yes.

here in san juan, across the island, folks are concerned and they are concerned their voices are being unheard. the trump administration policies that they have been moving for ward on the environmental side and climate side are dangerous. there should be a label on the administration policies like cigarettes that says warnings. these policies are dangerous for your health and may actually end your life. >> that's an excellent point. >> to that point, president trump just to let you hear for yourself, why the warning he just said is necessary? >> do you personally believe in climate change? >> i believe there is a change in weather. i think the changes both ways.

>> tiffany, there is a change in weather, that's all it is. >> i don't know anything about football, why would i be talking to him? this is ridiculous. the policies and climate of of climate change are real. i will talk about hurricane katrina and how that impacted new orleans and when you think oaf the vietnamese community where they did not get support from the bush's administration at the time. in this cycle, jay ainsley made this the standing piece of his campaign. i understand the president's point of not wanting to do a debate around this issue. you did this and everybody says what about criminal justice reform or equality pay. this is something that definitely impacts the community of color. i think when you put out policies and as you speak to

that and show people this is something that'll i mpact your life tomorrow. that can gain tractions among our country. >> what some of the candidates ha are saying and what they would do? is climate change an issue where african-americans in particular are actively talking about? it is an issue in a niche group of color. i think across the country and not just communities of color everyo even though they are impacted by it. they don't see it as something that'll change the way they live tomorrow even though it will. they're not necessarily going away. >> tiffany, thank you very much. you will be back with us later on in the show. thank you so much. santiago ali and jacqueline

patterson. thank you for being on "am joy." more of donald trump's interview with george stephanopoulos. that's next. with george stephanopoulos that's next. ♪ ♪ here i go again on my own ♪ goin' down the only road i've ever known ♪ ♪ like a-- ♪ drifter i was ♪born to walk alone! you're a drifter? i thought you were kevin's dad. little bit of both. if you ride, you get it. geico motorcycle. 15 minutes could save you 15% or more.

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mueller comes out and there is no collusion and no ruling of obstruction and they keep ongoing with it. people are angry about it. no collusion and he did not find anything having to do with the obstruction. are you trying to say now there

was collusion even though he says there is no collusion. he says no collusion. >> george, the report says no collusion. >> did you read it? >> yes, i did. >> you should read it, too. >> donald trump continuing to ignore the fact of special counsel robert mueller report with his interview with abc news. paul butler, glenn kersner. i had a question that's set up. i want you to react to this. paul, what you just saw? >> mueller did not find no collusion, he said there was not evidence of a criminal conspiracy to sacrifice the justice department high standards for bringing a case. the investigation revealing hundreds of contacts between russian operatives and the trump campaign and the campaign was receptive to these overtures.

even if it is not a crime, it is unethical or un-american. >> the president does not read anything. he does not read the daily brief, why would he read the mueller report? the mueller report says we did not look at the collusion. the president live in an alternative reality. if the news is not good for him, he does no read it or look at it or accept it or welcome it. the white house basically enables that in our leadership which is a huge problem for our country. >> glenn. >> jonathan, scour the mueller report, nowhere does it say we find no collusion. what it does say is we find 140 s instances of contacts which equals ord equal cors coordination.

it is clearly coordination. that's what the trump, that's what the mueller report redetai. coordination between trump and russia. >> all three of you pointed out, here is what the president had to say to george stephanopoulos in terms whether it is a hitch hunt or not. >> there was no crime, no collusion. the big thing is collusion. no there is no collusion, that means it was a set up. in my opinion and i think it is going to come out. i hope it is going to come out. we'll find out very soon. >> there is a group of people working against you. do you president obama is behind it? >> i would have said he's certainly must have known about it. you will find it out. i am not going to make that statement quite yet. i would say that president obama had no know about it.

>> the idea that there are a group of people working against him answers the whole thing he's been saying for 2.5 years. this is a witch hunt and reporting up until the mueller report came out. there was no such thing but this idea that there was a group of people working against him and blaming president obama. it seems to me that he's still -- you are a lawyer, you are all lawyers. we can see the situation where the sitting president of the united states, not only goes after his former political rival for the presidency, hillary clinton, it goes after his predecessor in the white house. >> that's right. >> especially when that president has an attorney general who access his enabler as his fixer. attorney general barr has signed onto this bizarre conspiracy theory that the obama administration responsible for

spying on the trump campaign and he got three federal investigations going on about that. so we could well have the spe spectrum of the attorney general of the united states prosecuting people of things that are not a crime but interested to donald trump. this is a president that puts his own interest above the interest of the united states. >> we are talking about president trump going after the president of the united states. but, on a campaign trail, there is a conversation on the democratic side at least about whether to go a ever the president and people within the administration once the trump administration is over. let's take a listen to what mayor pete buttigieg had to say on this? >> if parallel, there are investigations going on in to criminal behavior by some people of the highest levels of our government. that's how the justice system

works. you would tell your attorney general look at it. i am not going to tell you which way to come down on whether to prosecute the president of the united states. >> prosecution decisions should not be made in that sentence. what i will say is any attorney general that i would appoint is somebody who'll faithfully apply the concept that no one is above the law and everybody is held accountable. >> cynthia, that's not an unreasonable position, is it? >> no. it is not unreasonable at all. it is an interesting position though. here is why. because we know from the mueller report, crimes have been committed. and a future president is going to face initial decisions about the attorney general and when the attorney general goes before the senate to be confirmed, they're going to say to the attorney general, do you think president trump should be prosecuted, we are going to have that conversation as a country.

i agree that should be left to the attorney general. we already have the facts in the mueller report. reasonable minds canda disagreen that but something has to happen. >> glenn, where do you fall on that scale that cynthia just presented? >> cynthia is dead on. ordinarily, we want a president or a candidate for the presidency to take the position which is a time tested position that i would appoint an attorney general who is fearlessly independent and investigate crimes regardless of where he or she finds it, in the administration and outside the administration and i won't be putting my thumb on the scale. i think pete buttigieg is right about that but i also think cynthia is right. we had an investigation conducted by bob mueller. there is no better investigators

and he uncovered ten instances of let's call it what it is, obstruction of justice because he presented in volume two. the evidence showing that it supports every single element of the crime of obstruction. we had that investigation so i can see kamala harris saying listen, the evidence is in, the president committed crimes and he needs to be held accountable. i think there are valid arguments on both sides of that equation. >> if someone named pedro that committed the act that are outlined by the mueller report, they would be in jail right now. >> we would not be having this discussion. the mueller report says no person above the law. it is up to a future prosecutor to do that to bring the president to justice.

>> senator harris saying she directed doj to look into this and what mayor pete had to say. i'm siting here thinking we are in a situation where a lot of people maybe all three of you can't even trust the current attorney general to exercise the law faithfully equal justice of the whole oath to the constitution. why would anyone believe a future attorney general is pursuing investigations and prosecutions without any fear or favor and just doing it on the law as oppose to it being viewed as retribution. >> that's what i think is the biggest danger of this presidency. it is not just in prosecuting cases. it is not just they're so politicizing and taking the independence of the usjustice away. but, they have taken away the norms that the president tells

the truth. as we are dealing with this crisis in iran, people are wondering, i wonder if when the president says that the iranians did this bombing, i wonder if it is true or not? our allies going, i don't know if we believe trump or not. it is justice and it is true. it is foreign policy. the sand have shifted, we are not on solid ground anymore. it is important that as we pick the next president, we pick somebody that can bring us back to normalcy and decent cy again. >> thank you both for being here, paul will be right back. my panel will tell me who won the week even though they are going to be wrong. the week even going to be wrong. luxury suv of all time. lease the 2019 rx 350 for $399/month for 36 months. experience amazing at your lexus dealer.

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julian castro won the week. it was a huge deal in the last cycle. he went to flint over the weekend and he came out and immediately had a plan to address led poisoning across the country. in his plan, he's going to ask congress to replace all the led pipes and allocate $150 billion to prevent it. over 4 billion households are affected with led. there are so much talks of politics and how it impacts them. every time i hear that, that's really hard for the people of michigan. c

kudos for julian castro. >> i set the bar right here echlt. >> we know who's going to lead that bar? >> i think there were several good samaritans who filmed that police with that pregnant mother in phoenix. that horrible, i should be clear, horrible, vial police interaction. and so we all have seen the video. i want to say there was one good samaritan in particular who, and i don't know if she was related to the victim, but she had her friend or relative get the children of the woman as she was being harassed by the -- brutally harassed by the -- by several police officers actually. and so i think that woman and her either relative or friend won the week. and i want to make a point, a study just came out about how a lot of police officers, i think, hundreds of retired and current law enforcement, i should say law enforcement generally, have been caught in these chat rooms, in these facebook groups, that

are racist, anti-muslim, misogynistic, using violent imagery, racial slurs. this came out -- something came out similar in philadelphia with the philadelphia police department. and i remember when members of these white supremacist groups said they were going to infiltrate law enforcement, that that was a priority for them. and i think we as a country have to come to terms with the fact that they have done what they said they were going to do. this is a serious issue for our community. this is a serious issue, that family, in phoenix, the police report completely contradicts what the video showed us. and that family could be facing charges if it wasn't for those folks who filmed that interaction. that should not be the way justice is done. we shouldn't have to have people with cell phone cameras ensuring that people aren't framed that people aren't abused, that people aren't killed, that is not how this country should function. it is something we're going have to come to terms with as a nation.

i want to -- until we can fully come to terms with it, i want to shout out the brave people who are often putting themselves at risk to film the interactions and also to intervene and so that's my who won the week. >> amen. it breaks my heart every time there is a new -- >> pregnant woman. >> amen. in a regular week, you both would be right, but this week, harriet tubman. >> oh! >> so she's the great emancipator who led people to freedom. the obama administration was going to put her on the $20 bill. huge, she would be the first african-american on any currency and the first woman on paper money. donald trump says it is political correctness. this week, the treasury secretary put a six-year hold on it, but on friday, the new york times literally showed us the money. the bill is ready to go. it is a beautiful image.

to see this black woman on american currency was so inspiring. so in a beef between donald trump and harriet tubman, we'll be celebrating her a long time after donald trump. >> just to be fair to the folks who like slave holders, juk s s andrew jackson will be on the other side of the bill, he'll still have that space, that real estate on american currency, but, again, we're going to remember harriet tubman long after both donald trump and andrew jackson are tragic footnotes. >> before there was james bond, there was harriet tubman. if you don't know her story, she was a spy for the union. you're all wrong!

because here, who won the week -- here's who won the week. >> are you trying to say now there was collusion even though he said there is no collusion? >> he didn't say there was no collusion. he said he didn't look -- >> george, the report said no collusion. >> did you read the report? >> yes, i did, and you should read it too. come on, let's go. >> just to be clear, george stephanopoulos won the week. because there was a journalist, one, who got access to the president. not inside the fox news bubble, where the president is used to calling into, but was able to spend 30 hours with him and get extraordinary comments out of this man's mouth, but also by just pushing him, challenging him on the facts, was able to make the president mad enough to get out of the beast. come on, let's go. and kept going. if you haven't seen it, you should watch it in your free time. but i think george stephanopoulos won the week

because that's the way journalism and journalists hold the powerful accountable. not in a confrontational way. but by saying, you said two plus two equals five, but, actually, two plus two equals four and this is why -- this is why you're wrong. this is why you're in the problem -- the problems that you have. >> i think it is a statement on the state of media today as well. you see this president bully and railroad reporters so frequently. >> he tried to do that to stephanopoulos. >> you have to pursue it. i think it is such a painful time for me, being in journalism, over 20 years, and watching how it has been eroded and there was another network who did this whole documentary on the first lady, do you think birtherism came up? they're still trying to paint this victimhood story of this couple that is eroding core democratic principles of the country. i agree, i don't think you leapt my bar, but george stephanopoulos, good try, good try. sha shoutout to him.

>> i wish robert mueller had the same opportunity that george stephanopoulos had. the media, they bring us transparency and sunshine. but it is ultimately the justice department that is supposed to bring people to justice when they have broken the law. >> just to remember, there is only one profession protected in the constitution of the united states and that's the press. with that, thank you, paul butler, tiffany cross and tara daredal for being on the show. more "am joy" after the break. more "am joy" after the break. hmm. exactly. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. nice. but, uh... what's up with your... partner? not again. limu that's your reflection. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ the ♪exus es... ...every curve, every innovation, every feeling... ...a product of mastery. lease the 2019 es 350 for $379/month for 36 months. experience amazing at your lexus dealer.

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that is our show for today. thanks for watching. "am joy" will be back next saturday, 10:00 a.m. eastern. up next, frances rivera has the latest. >> thank you very much. good to be with you from msnbc world headquarters in new york. it is high noon in the east. 9:00 out west. welcome to "week jeends with al witt." why the president is calling the story virtual treason. >> yes, i did. you should read it too. look, article 2, i would be allowed to fire robert mueller because they were looking to get us for lies, for slight misstatements. >> new polls about the president and the distance between him and the democrats. plus, a new promise from democrats about closing the