we'll be back here tomorrow night at 6:00 p.m. eastern. don't go anywhere, "hardball" with chris matthews is up next. hopeless, let's play "hardball." [ music playing ] good eveninging i'm chris matthews back if washington. we got a big show tonight. we know who is pushing trump to start a war in iran, the big story who's not pushing them? speaking of war, joe biden's comments about hit former senate colleagues has got opponents hoping. first up, though, showing up isn't enough. the only real witness the democrats have managed to bring before the house judiciary committee walked in today gagged. hope hicks, the president's former communications director and close aide showed up for a

closed door hearing. that's it. showed up. she refused to answer questions about her time in the trump administration or the transition as the "new york times" says, no, she even refused to identify the location of her west wing office. the real question is why did anyone bother? in a letter to the committee, the white house said hicks is absolutely immune from testifying. democrats seeking cooperation were clearly frustrated. >> almost every question i've observed, you know, she is refusing you know to answer and that's a problem and you know saying that she's dock it at the behest of the white house -- that she's doing it at the behest of the white house. she doesn't have to follow these orders. there is no penalty if she didn't follow it. >> they are trying to cover up to prevent congress from finding the facts and for the american people to know the full truth. >> but house judiciary chairman

jerry nadler told nbc news the white house is having the doctrine of absolute immunity, which we'll destroy in court. as a close aide to the president, hicks' participation in today's hearing was initially viewed as a break through to the committee. and featured prominently in the mueller report. in africa, her name, hope hicks is mentioned over 180 times in the mueller report. it prompted a new round of attacks from the president saying quote, democratic congress am hearings are rigged. after today's hearing, he tweeted, so sad that the democrats are putting wonderful hope hicks through hell. trump went after the mueller probe, itself, tweeting, if i didn't have the phony witch hunt going on for three years, i would be way up in the polls right now. with our economy, winning by 20 points, but i'm winning anyway. i am joined by magdalene dean of

pennsylvania, she was behind closed doors. pull butler a former prosecutor, david coren, thank you, congressmen for so much. you know what we don't know. i'm going to give you all the time you want. what did you learn of probative value about potential impeachment of donald trump? >> what i learned was, number one, we did finally have somebody in who was a witness in to this history in front of us. so i'm not as hopeless as you might be. think of it, she was front row seat in three different capacities, two we could question her about. she was front row as a press secretary and on the transition and of course she went into the white house. what happened today was dozens of objections based on this false blanket immunity by two deputy white house counsels, who blocked her from testifying before us on anything having to do with her time inside the white house january 20th of 2017

until she left the following year. but that did not prohibit us from asking her about her work both on the campaign and then in transition. so, i'm not hopeless. we got some information. but i think it was telling that this white house did not want her to say one word about her work. >> well, there she is, wearing sunglasses going into the meeting room. i don't know, i get the feeling she didn't want to say anything from the time she agreed to testify. did you get a sense up front that she would give you something of value about trump? let me go through some possibilities. if terms of the hush money payments, the potential campaign faimt payments, the jeff sessions please take back your recuse am. the trump tower meeting afterwards on air force one they put together the cover story having to do with the adoption of russian kids, did you get any information on those three fronts? >> no, because of the blockade by the deputy council for the white house.

each time they claimed blanket immunity saying she could not comment on anything she learned while she was employed in the administration. i was in the room for the beginning when chairman nadler asked her specifically about the lewandowski documentation of notes regarding telling jeff sessions to make sure that he would unrecuse or that he would make some very boastful speech about the president. she was prohibited and she agreed to be prohibited from talking about that. with the exception that she did think it was odd that that role was being played or that the president asked mr. lewandowski to play a role? after all, he was not in the administration. what role would he have to play with mr. sessions? >> we're watching. thank you so much. we are looking at a picture, kasie hunt my colleague trying to get a word from her as she is entering the witness room. do you have a sense just as a political figure, do you get a

sense that they have decided they will go through the form of showing up, but fought give your committee anything? >> no i think they found themselves between a rock and a hard place. she is now a private citizen. so they had to deal with the fact that we made an agreement to have her come in. her testimony will be transcribed and we have the ability to question her, as did our council, as did our chairman. so i think the administration finds itself between a rock and a hard place. it's quite usual that she came in and spoke to us about whether or not she saw contacts with russians or russian officials during the campaign. she was right up front for that. >> tell us about that, if you can. >> that was an area of questioning they wanted to ask her about. i was making sure i limited it to transition and/or campaign. so i asked her about communications with russians or russian officials. she tried to say that there were no communications whatsoever. when i asked a little more specifically, she admitted there were probably an e-mail or more.

she didn't think they were relevant. i tried to impress upon the witness that it wasn't up to her to decide what was relevant. we were here to get the facts, the truth before the american people. so i had some stonewalling there. >> did you come into the meeting with that position on whether we should proceed with impeachment? >> maybe i told you. i have called for impeachment inquiry at the moment mr. mcdawn failed to answer our lawful subpoenas. i feel i am one of the foot soldiers on this judiciary committee, a worker for this caucus and at the time that mcgahn ignored and stonewalled of course with the aid of this administration our lawful subpoenas, i have called for an impeachment inquiry. i believe that's what we have to do. >> well said, thank you, palm louisiana give us a sense of this claim of executive privilege. i mean, i look at this political person, hope hicks. she's now in private sector. but there is a thought she may

go back and work in the next campaign. she's a political warrior. >> so the white house is going scorched earth. they're saying no person who works in the white house should ever have to answer to congress about anything that happened during their time in the administration. hope hicks wouldn't even say where her office is. now, i think that a court would take seriously the idea that the president should be able to have sensitive conversations with his top advisers that remain private but that has to be balanced against the congressional power and right to do oversight. the democrats are also saying that hope hicks waved her right when she went and spoke to robert mueller for hours. her name appears in the muller report 183 times. >> remain us. >> so she was there. she knows where the bodies are buried. she was there when comey was fired. she was there when flynn was fired. she was there when trump tried to fire mueller. she was on air force one when

trump dictated that memo that was a lie about what happened in trump tower. >> so she was an intimate, the kind of person that a political figure or a business person would trust to be in the room all the time, a fly on the wall? >> under the white house definition of executive privilege or immunity as they call it, you could be a white house official, you could see someone walk in and pour a million dollars on the president's desk to bribe the president and you still are not compelled to talk to congress. >> if this were impeachment hearings right now then it would be a criminal investigation. >> there is an argument that under impeachment, the congress would have a greater right to break through this wall they're putting up. and having spoken and done some reporting on this, the judiciary committee now intends or at least is considering taking this issue to court. they wanted to bring her in because they know to get don mcgahn and others before them, they're going to have to take this issue to the courts. so that's why they agreed not to

do it publicly. >> what do you think about that? either one of you guys, do you think the court is going to rule they will testify, no more gagging rule? >> i think it would be very -- you are a better expert. i would say, briefly, i think it would be very hard pressed for the court to buy, lock, stock and barrel the argument in the white house that nobody can ever be forced to talk to congress. >> i think david is right. but the problem is when? again, it's easy for the trump administration to try to run out the clock so the dirt doesn't come out until after the election. justice delayed is justice denied. >> let me go back to the congressman dean. pled me ask you what is your hope? you are doing this as a political figure with a very important charge here to try to get the story on potential impeachment. do you think, are you hopeful? you and the chairman, mr. fad ler, that you will get the courts to rule on your side and force witnesses, mcgahn, and the rest of them to come forward next? >> i want to be really precise. while i was in the room and

recognized we had another important hearing on the issue of reparations, hr-40 so we had these competingtistically important hearings going on. while i was in the room and during my questioning of hope hicks, the only assertion that the lawyers made was not privilege, was fought executive privilege. it was this blanket immunity. so i'm certain that the chairman wanted that on the record and it was on the record. >> what's that mean? >> exactly. there is no such thing. so it will not hold up in a court of law. it was none an assertion of executive privilege which we know was waived in large measure during the mueller investigation. the president failed to claim it. so he doesn't have privilege. they're claiming something like immunity, blanket immunity. the court will not uphold it. it is not a salient argument. >> that itself something we had to get on the record. again, think about this. this woman could be an important voice for this administration to proclaim its innocence and they have silenced her. >> i just wanted the whole

manner of coming in with sun glasses on, not answering kasie hunt's question, there seems to be a point of view they can stonewall this. >> again the story is the ting. the democrats would like to see the mueller report acted out by people like hope hicks. what did donald trump say? did he know -- why did he lie about this meeting with the russian lawyer. what did i tell you about? we read those things now in the mueller report. if we actually get to see and hear witness like hope hicks, it's a different ball game. >> i'm wondering about adam schiff. the idea that the clock is running. meanwhile, democrats want robert mueller to testify before the house intelligence committee even as it begins issuing a subpoena to get him. if that means getting him by subpoena, here's congressman jim hines of connect on that point. >> it's going to happen. he's going to get suspend. we have a profound hearing.

it will be behind closed doors. i do believe mueller will be suspended. i do believe he is show up. he's not the kind of guy that ignores a subpoena. >> committee share adam schiff yesterdaying a knowledged time is running out. the calendar is running out. >> i think time is running out. the best way to get a witness to testify if you can get them to testify voluntarily. particularly with someone like bob mueller making an appeal to his patriotism, a sense of duty is the right way to go. but at the end of the day he needs to come testify. >> is august too late? >> yes, i think it is. i think we are reaching a points where if we can't reach an agreement, i hope we will. we will have to use a subpoena. >> congresswoman, i'm a skeptic. i think speaker pelosi is one of the greatest speaker in political terms. she keeps the caucus together. i accept all that political talent and whatever seriousness if you call it that, maybe. i don't think you will impeach. i this i the calendar is running out.

i think we will have this conversation october. it won't be any different. because you will not get the big witnesses to give you game changing blockbuster testimony, which i think will take to shake loose the middle of the american people, not the trump block, but the middle. what do you think looking to the future if. >> fortunately, i think we have a very strong strategy. it's led by speaker pelosi along with our caucus council. you have seen we have taken cases to court. our side has been upheld against the obstruction off this administration. we'll continue to do that. today was a building block where the chairman got on the record over and over the false claim of blanket immunity, which we'll be able to get in court i don't think the clock is running out. i think the american people have the right to the information. i believe mueller will come before intelligence or our committee. i hope he comes before both. the american people need to hear from mueller. i don't care if it is actually a recitesation of the report. it will bring the report and the

extraordinary wrongdoing to life. let's not forget what voum 1 is about? it's about a systematic sweeping interference by the russians in 2016. the welcoming of this administration wallowing in it. we have a president a week ago who said he would invite other foreign countries to illegally help in his next re-election. we got to put an end to that. the constitution is much stronger than this administration and corruption and its indecency. i'm very helpful. >> all your values, i do worry about the thank you. thank you. coming up, president trump launches his trump re-election campaign. trump 2.0 looks a like like trump 1.5. he's not running against hillary clinton. joe biden takes some heat for his talk of civility. specifically his ability he said as to work with old time

segregationists in the u.s. senate. some of his democratic challengers fired back suggest he is wrong and out of touch with today's party. today, biden's camp is speaking out against that criticism. much of that coming up. stick with us. nst that criticism much of that coming up stick with us. vehicle protecting those inside and out. and it's the mercedes-benz of today that will help us get there. the 2019 e-class, with innovations that will change the way we drive from this day forward. visit your local mercedes-benz dealer for exceptional lease and financing offers. mercedes-benz. the best or nothing. woman: (on phone) discover. hi.

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[ sigh ] introducing an easier way to move with xfinity. it's just another way we're working to make your life simple, easy, awesome. go to xfinity.com/moving to get started. welcome back to "hardball" after weeks of hype and dozens of self promoting tweets, the president's 202066off last night turned out to be another trump rally. in fact, it sounded like one of his more than 300 rallies back in 2016. take a look. >> crooked hillary. >> crooked hillary. >> deleted and acid washed 33 to it. e-mai e-mails. >> 33,000 e-mails were deleted and acid washed.

>> lock her up! lock her up! build the wall! build the wall! build that wall! build that wall! >> i will never, ever let you down. >> i will never, ever, let you down. my only special interest is you. >> my only special interest is you. >> you want to shut down this rigged system once and for all, then show up november 3rd, that's your day, a big day, and vote, vote, vote. >> with your votes, you can beat the system. the rigged system. >> isn't that great? our producer put together 2016 and 2020, actually 2019, it's exactly verbatim. anyway, no file just yet. the president tried out his 2016

attacks on hillary rodham clinton. here he goes. >> crooked hillary clinton and the dc. >> crooked hillary. >> you remember during one of the debates when crooked hillary said. the free pass they gave to hillary and her aids. hillary used the word deplorables. i think hillary clinton made a big mistake with that speech. >> i am joined with the white house reporter with the associated press and with us yesterday and susan del percio republican strategist. you know, i don't know a decision, i guess i am, too, let me ask you this about. it looks to me like he is desperately trying to find a hillary clinton in 2020. so until he finds the new hillary clinton, he sticks with the old. >> absolutely. plus we know he has a limited vocabulary, chris, so that explains a lot as well, i think what he is going to use instead of the hillary clinton, i mean he will continue to use it for a while is the line that america will never be a socialist

country. it's us versus them. and that will become him defining the next person he runs against, the democratic noom know. no matter who it is. >> really? >> it's them. >> look, i've talked to elizabeth warren, the senator, she made it very clear to me like a year-and-a-half ago, two points she made with me. one, i am not a socialist. i believe in a capitalist system. it needs to be refined, people need to be protected. two, i am a democrat. i am not a socialist. she wants that to be clear in partisan and ideological terms. she believes in the market. >> when did the truth get in the way the donald trump? that's a reality. i don't disagree with elizabeth warren's character ifkistic of how she is running. i'm saying that is what donald trump is going to try and do. >> oh well. there it's the most divissist iive thing he can do.

>> does gentleman biden look like a socialist to you? >> donald trump will take down the narrative with those words until he has an trouble opponent to run against. >> could be. you were there last night. how did it look and smell like to years ago? >> i have been to dozens of rallies, if you put me back in time and plot me in that arena, i would have no idea what arena it was. it was the exact same playbook. they had behind this launch campaign, despite the fact he has been running now for three-and-a-half, two-an-a-half years. they could have done something different, hired a new speech writer, had some balloons, had some new messaging, instead, they pulled back that exact same script, repeating it word-for-word. >> look at the faces of these people. all these smiling faces behind him, grinning from ear-to-ear, men and women, what do you make? >> no, the crowd loved it. trump was playing to his base here. this was the lines about hillary clinton had the whole room

screaming. there were lock her up chances again. >> she's a movable face doesn't she? hillary, the glee they get out of it. >> exactly. that's why trump continues to do it. this is a way to rev up the base. >> facts i need it, news fact, bulletin. is it make america great again or keep america great? keep sounds like you already got it made, i'm defending the status quo. bad politics what do you say? >> it was funny. they had both banners in the stadium. the president at one point polled the crowd asking them which version they wanted. he really wanted to stay with make america great again. >> the political questions, i think make is a much better word tan keep. keep is a terrible word. make is a great word. if he admits, says we've gotten to the promised land, this is what i said i was going to do it for you, give me credit. >> that never works, he has to say i have to keep beating the

deep state and the bad guys. >> absolutely, chris. really he has not achieved anything he set out to do from when he's been elected or sense he was sworn in. he got a tax plan through. but he had a republican house and senate. he couldn't do anything on immigration. he couldn't get mexico to build the wall. he did absolutely nothing on healthcare. so he hasn't delivered a lot. so i guess he can still say i'm still trying. >> according to washington post fact-checker, president trump's speech last night was littered with the same false or misleading claims he has so often repeated as president. here are three of the 18 unfounded false or exaggerated claims the president made and "the washington post" has debunked. here they go. >> we passed va choice, va choice for veterans. they have been trying to get that passed also for about 44 years. we will always protect patients

with pre-existing conditions. we stared down the unholy alliance of lobbyists and donors and special interests who made a living bleeding our country dry. that's what we've done. >> well, the veterans choice program, which president trump took credit for was sponsored by the late for john mccain and signed into law by president barack obama. on healthcare, the trump administration is pushing to repeal the entire affordable care act or obamacare, including its protections for people with pre-existing conditions. so he wants to get rid of that protection. not protect it. president trump says he is draining the swamp. look at this, has filled his cabinet with former lobbyists. he's got four of them now, a republican megadonor is in there and a hedge fund executive. i don't know, susan, maybe it's impossible to put together a clean as a whistle cabinet. he looks like he is going back to people from daddy warbucks types, the kind that make their

lives selling war equipment as hess defense secretaries. >> yeah. he happens to like most of them are acting in those positions because he feels like he can hold it over their heads. i don't know, he really said only the best and i think we really have seen just the bottom of the barrel, frankly. >> manafort was one of his first choices. there is cleaning the swamp. >> i will say that mattis was a really good choice, so was tillerson, so i'll give him that. >> he is better off helping people getting better prison assignments than picking for his cabinet. jim, thank you. you get the greatest assignments, you get to go to these things. thank you. still ahead, who was the president that's got us here when it comes to iran, who is the hawk? who is the dove? he has hawks like bolton, pompeo and for tom cotton, i call him bates moment for obvious reasons and the other, the dove i guess is fox news host comparing to

him rhetoric that led us into misbegotten war in iraq. he's got one person here saying don't go to war again. how does this end? that's coming next with "hardball." coming next with "hardball. my experience with usaa has been excellent. they really appreciate the military family and it really shows. with all that usaa offers why go with anybody else? we know their rates are good, we know that they're always going to take care of us. it was an instant savings and i should have changed a long time ago. it was funny because when we would call another insurance company, hey would say "oh we can't beat usaa"

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that's right. t-mobile will match your discount. welcome back to "hardball." well, today we are hearing president trump is telling his team to slow down the drumbeat with the war with iran. that's good news.

the daily beast is reporting president trump privately pushed his representatives, surrogates, if you will, to talk back the tough talk with iran. president trump is reportedly getting conflicting advice, where i the way, when iran complicates everything. according to politico, republican senator tom cotton a real hawk from kansas, arkansas, rather, has been speaking, advocating for airstrikes, in other words acts of war. here we go. >> ivan for 40 years has engaged in these kind of attacks going back to the fine 80s. in fact, ronald reagan had to reflag a lot of vessels going through the persian gulf and take military action against iran if finiation. these unprovoked attacks on commercial shipping warrant a retaliatory missile strike. >> on the other side, the daily beast reports tucker karlsson of fox news is privately advising the president not to do those

airstrikes against iran. with the president's iran strategy, personally, what's he think? in an interview with "time" magazine, he down played the oil tanks in the gulf of oman as minor. the pentagon announced this week, it would be sending another 1,000 troops to the region. what's the message? i am joined by elyse jordan and national security council aid under president george w. bush. and a former state department senior adviser under president barack obama. what do you read here? i mean, tucker karlsson is sort of a maverick in many ways. in this side, he is taking the cautious don't go to war position, which is politically astute i think. the other guy, i don't know it's a mania, this guy cotton has been a hawk from day one. >> it certainly doesn't make sense in terms of the cohesive republican strategy or position on this particularly when you have john bolt wlon is a national security adviser, one

of the oldest war hawks architect of the rack war advocating regime change. this tells you that president trump doesn't have a policy so he can be persuaded by people in his party, whether it's the press and the crowds or the base who are essentially isolationists and don't want to see another war. or people like john bolton and secretary pompeo, who are heavily influenced by the ideas of regime change and israeli and saudi influences of wanting the united states to do tear dirty work in the region. >> elyse, first of all, i don't know anybody reasonable wants to go to war in iran. it was persia, it's a real serious country, we used to be friendly, they have aed mo earn air force arc pod earn society. the ayatollahs are there. underneath that is a real society like western standards pretty dam tough in terms of war. and yet, the guy brings in john bolton, who wants to go to war

with iran since fine 98 with the iraqi, way back then he's been pushing for regime change. why do you bring in bolton? why is he listening to tom cotton if he has learned anything? >> here's my concern, chris, in theory, donald trump talks like he doesn't want regime change, like he wants to not have as much intervention around the world. then in practice, he can be very quickly manipulated to take one off actions and he essentially has a transactional foreign policy that is impulsive and it is not reliant at all on our allies, and you look at how this tension is brewing now, and all it's doing is even pulling us further away from our european allys that we entered into the jcpoa with and driveing a wedge as the sessiituation that the sp p trump administration -- trump administration has, i'm not by

any means saying what eastern is doing is absolutely terrible. but it's par for course with their behavior and they certainly have made it far worse by escalating their actions with the sanctions and by getting out of the nuclear agreement. >> well, you are, elyse of course as well, trump back to his wise guys days, he was a little more serious as president. he thought he'd say w. george w. bush. he may not be the best president, but he was the spupdist. he was talking about iraq. he thought it was the stupidest thing to go into iraq. the reason he might be listening to tucker calson, who is sort of a commentator, the common sense might be be careful you might talk the iranians into a war, all of a sudden it's a war. >> i think it's realizing the united states has been on a knife's edge when it comes to iran and the relationship.

but there is far more to this relationship than there has been with a tit for tat verbally with north korea. so we are starting to see and hearing from military advisers, and other folks in the national security community about the gravity of this. words general p genuinely matter in this situation. there is three reasons his administration has stated in the past under mattis and under the former secretary tillerson about why you would go to war with iran. either it's nuke, to stop it from getting a nuclear weapon, regime change or an attack on u.s. assets. neither one of those three has really happened now, the first two, iran is threatened now because of the bellicose words of donald trump, to start ramping up its nuclear programs so that could be a reason why trump would implicate strikes and john bolton has always advocated for regime change. this tanker issue is key. it references back to reagan and reagan's involvement. but the tankers that were attacked is fought u.s.

so it's a part of the broader oil strategy. it's important to remember no u.s. assets have been attacked at this point. >> i think iran is dr dr. strangelove, the way tom cotton talks, he wouldn't have been elected. he said no more stupid wars, infrastructure, i will rebuild the mark. neither is credible. up next, what do democratic voters want in a candidate? do they want a fighter, someone out with fists up or compromise? joe biden is pushing for a return to self compromise, bipartisanships, candidates say it's more than past time to fight fire with fire. which message has momentum going into next week's debate. "hardball" is back after this. . "hardball" is back after this. toward things like complimentary maintenance. or for vehicle accessories. and with fordpass, a tap can also get you 24/7 roadside assistance. and lock your vehicle.

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reforms we need to pass now. so call your state senator. ask them to support ab 1505 and ab 1507. welcome back to "haroldball." now just one week if you can believe it from the democratic debates of 2020.

an increasing divide has emerged. among them, how often the next democratic president should work with republicans. >> that divide was on display earlier this week when the poor people's campaign formed in washington, senator elizabeth warren and former vice president joe biden discuss the republican senate led by mitch mcconnell. >> we cannot let him block things the way he did during the obama administration. i have been there when it was one senate rules when president obama was president and now it's a different set of rules. now that they've got trump in the white house, we can't do that as democrats. we have to be willing to get in this fight. >> i know you want to think it's naive to think we have to work together. the fact of the matter is we can't get a consensus if nothing happens except abuse of power by the executive, zero. you got to make it clear to republicans, you understand on some things, there is a rationale for compromise. >> warren has said she will find

places to work with republicans, biden repeatedly referenced his time in the senate touting the value of civility and bipartisanship in getting things done. >> people are saying you know biden just doesn't get it. he can't work with republicans anymore, that's not the way it works anymore. folks, i will say something outrageous. i know how to make government work. i'm not talking about going back to the past. i'm talking about avoiding a terrible future if we do not, if we do not figure out how to make this work. the republicans are my opponents, they're not my enemies. i just think we have to be a lot more civil in the way we engage one another. >> look, i got to the senate, there was even more divided on issues than it is today. and, you know, i got there, they're all the odd segregationists were there for horse sake. after the fight was over then you moved on. >> well, last night biden again talked about his history of

builden consensus, recalling his work with democrats james eastland of mississippi and herman talimage. he said i was in a caulk cau/* caucus and he never called me boy, he called me son. we didn't agree on much of anything. we got things done, got it finished. today you look at the other side, you're the enemy, not the opposition. the enemy, we don't talk to anybody anymore. biden's contrasting his time with the current political landscape highlighted with the reality of today's democratic party, generating fares rebuttals from his democratic opponents. that's coming up next. his demo opponents. that's coming up next. new shell v-power nitro+ premium gasoline

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said, vice president byte biden's relationships with proud segregationists are not the model for how we make america a safer and more inclusive place for black people and for everyone. and, frankly, i'm disappointed. senator elizabeth warren told reporters, i'm not here to criticize other democrats, but it's never okay to celebrate segregationists. is that what bietden did in the most response is bill de blasio, it's 2019 and joe biden is longing for the good old days of civility, multi-racial families should be illegal. well, the mayor of fork added, it's past time for apologies or evolution from joe biden. he repeatedly demonstrates he is out of step with the values of the modern democratic party. for more i am joined by joel pape, a frequent guest here, a

democratic strategist kristen hahn, for blue dog democrats. so this looks like it was a long time coming and here it has. joe biden, he got along with the people that guy got alodng with the people that used to run the democratic party. they were all southern segregationists. even the food was all southern. you had to dig up, not kiss up but put up with guys like eastland and tallmadge. remember the guy who said i took the money in my rain coat. >> strom thurmond. how do we deal with the modern democratic party where there's no more segregationists. now we have modern people of color. >> i think there are reasonable takes here. i think to say he was celebrating segregationist is probably a bit strong. i don't think that's what the former vice president was doing. i think this reveals what the fear is about joe biden that a lot of democrats had when he started this race, that he has a propensity for dpgaffes and he'

out of step with the modern democratic party. those things are true. it does not mean he can't be the nominee but he has an uphill battle because of the things that he's fighting against. the inertia of joe biden, the guy of 1975 running in 2019. >> that's the trouble of being old. he's defending a time most voters don't remember and don't want to remember. >> i don't know that i totally agree that he doesn't fit in with the modern democratic party. he's older, but i'm using the midterms as an example. you look back and a lot of states we have to win, the rust belt stay, we won those because the right candidates came through. >> what were they? >> they were your abigail spambergers, you're talking about people that were supported by the far left, but they won their primaries. they won democratic primaries an then they went on to win the general. if they hadn't won their primaries, we would have lost

those seats. so i think it's granular then. >> i'm going to be a little less nice and i really like joe biden and we'll probably see at the ending. i'm worried that he's like one of the last moderates standing. if he gets knocked off, who's left, because then it will just be left. but he never called me boy. for a white guy to say that, there's no history of that. >> it's tone deaf. there are the obvious comments about talking about segregationists in a very loose way. you're doing this in a roomful of wealthy donors. >> white guys. >> you're seressentially defend old white bigots to a room of old white donors. >> by the way, i know all these people. they're all liberal democrats. >> but that's essentially what you're doing. >> he got a defense out by the end of the day. biden's senior advisor blasted the former vice president's critics writing joe biden did not praise segregation, that is a disingenuous take.

he said sometimes in congress one has to work with terrible or downright racist folks to get things done and then went on to say when you can't work with them, work around them. she added let's be honest here. a person currently sits in the white house who has actually praised white supremacists, refused to acknowledge the innocence of the central park five and talks about criminal justice reform but has yet to allocate a penny to do it in his budget. this is the other thing in politics, if you can't defend somebody, you say what about trump? >> and i think that you've got a case where you've got some people, house, senate, those running who are activists. then you've got joe biden who's a legislator. you've got the same thing reflected in the house and senate. you have to at some point, you're somewhat an activist running for office but he's somebody who sees the value in bringing people together. >> i wanted to do this and am jumping in on your time but i dug up something teddy kennedy wrote right as he was dying in his book. let's take a look at that. it's about dealing with people

like seggies. by the way, the senate was filled with them back then, they were awful. one of biden's long-time senate call leagues, the late senator ted kennedy recalled his experience working with eastland. by the way, teddy was on that committee. in his memoir published shortly after his death kennedy wrote eastland's racial views poed a moral problem for me. civil rights became one of the defining causes of my career. how could i seek guidance or cooperate in any way with a proponent of segregation? my decision regarding eastland, in fact my abiding impulse to reach across lines of division in my career took strength from the concluding phrase of link up's inaugural address. on the eve of the civil war. i decided to put my faith in the better angels of our nature. i worked with james eastland, in fact the two of us became friends. then and always i would work with anyone whose philosophies differed from mine as long as the issue at hand promoted the

welfare of the people, and i would continue to await those better angels and to remain confident in ultimate justice. teddy had to do it, he did it. he got along with the guy to get the civil rights bill through. >> let's cut through all this. i think this race, the biden race and biden/trump, it's about do you think donald trump broke washington or do you think washington existing created donald trump? what came first, the chicken or the egg? >> what do you think? >> i think washington was broken by mitch mcconnell and it allowed donald trump -- >> let's come back and have a fight about that case. up next, what i call the baskin robbins phrase of this 2020 process. you're watching "hardball." i wanted more from

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next week we're hosting the first debate of the 2020 race. a poll, by the way, from suffolk university in "usa today" shows four out of five democratic voters plan to watch the debate next week. it shows seven candidates right now are gaining more than 1% support. they are biden at 30%, bernie sanders at 15%, elizabeth warren at 10:00, buttigieg at 9%, harris at 8%, o'rourke at 2%, booker at 2%. the others who qualified for the debates had less than 1%. again, it's early. this isn't about picking someone

to be president yet, it's deciding to give someone a look, going to a fataste of them. for some voters it will be like going into baskin robbins and try a new flavor. i think i'll try buttigieg. maybe i'm getting tired of bernie. it really is like that. there's going to be winners next week and candidates that wish it never happened. this is "hardball" for now. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on "all in" -- >> make america great again. >> as the president kicks off his campaign, the raging controversy over the growing detention camps on our border and what we call them. >> the united states is running concentration camps on our southern border. then, what we learned from hope hicks today. >> is the white house letting you answer any questions today? >> and what democrats plan to do about it.