go beyond the expected, to do the extraordinary. take your business beyond. . all right. that will do it for me and for our whole team. thank you for watching. i'll see you again tomorrow morning at 6:00 a.m. eastern. now it's time for "up with david gura." ♪ this "up" i'm david gura. new details about president trump's decision not to attack iran. why he changed his mind with minutes to spare even though the strikes were cocked and loaded as he put it. >> i'm not looking for war, if there it is, it will be owe obliteration like you have never seen before. >> in the end, whose advice

mattered most? this weekend all eyes are on south carolina. most of the democratic candidates are there. they're all trying to get the support of black voters in the palmetto state. >> this country doesn't have to be made great again. it is already great. >> jim clyburn's world famous fish fry last night. there was two tons of whiting and more calls for president trump's impeachment. >> i think i win the election easier, i'm not sure i like having it. i did nothing wrong. i was spied on. >> it is saturday, june 22nd. even though he's been running for reelection since day, president trump formally kicked off his campaign in orlando with a speech key hahe could have ded in 2016. there were calls to drain the swamp, lock her up and build the wall. >> he's talking about the wall. it's beautiful. i changed the design. he said i made it stronger, bigger, better, cheaper.

remember that wall i pulled out of my [ bleep ] and never delivered on? it's better than ever. >> up with me this morning is ned price now an msnbc national security analyst. laura barron-lopez is a political reporter for policeco and liz winstat, the creator of "the daily show." barry mccaffrey is a military analyst for nbc news. the general is with us this morning. we begin with the middle east. president trump's decision to call off a strike against iran after a u.s. drone was shot down over the strait of hormuz. u.s. officials say the drone was flying in international airspace, iran says it was in he iranian airspace. on friday president trump said the u.s. military was cocked and loaded for a strike against iran but called it off with ten

minutes to spare when a general told him 150 people would probably die in the attack. the president elaborated on his decision during an exclusive interview that will air in full tomorrow on nbc's "meet the press" with chucked to. >> i'm not looking for war. if there is, it will be owe obliteration like you have never seen before. i'm not looking to do that. you can't have a nuclear weapon. you want to talk, good otherwise you can have a bad economy for the next three years. >> no preconditions? >> not as far as i'm concerned. >> as we piece together what happened we are trying to figure out what could happen next and what the consequences are for u.s. foreign policy. cory shockey on the national security council writes this, the administration points a gun but won't pull the trigger. that will encourage other adversaries to challenge america in other theaters. barry mccaffrey, let me start with you. what do we gain here by piecing together what happened?

what does it tell you, the narrative and what we know of it in the situation room on thursday night. >> i'm not sure we understand fully who was advising the president. secretary pompeo is in the room. bolton is in the room. others apparently possibly over unsecure phones had access to the president's thinking. for sure the president's explanation is implausible. the notion learned only at the last mine that 150 iranians could have been killed. he could have said strike targets that involve no potential loss of life. five static aircraft on the ground. the radar system for the missile site that shot down a global hawk. i think he's making it up as he goes along. there's an impulsivity to this national security process. there are not options being analyzed by the elements of government and the national security council is essentially

dysfunctional. we have a flawed process. i think the jcs finally got to the president and said you risk escalation, an ugly shooting war in the gulf. six tankers did get attacked by the iranians in international waters. they did shoot down a 1$120 million global hawk in international airspace according to the three-star air force guy opt ground. we have a problem. trump inherited it but he's making the situation. >> ned price, i want to ask about the argument of proportionality. there are international laws surrounding the way a country can respond to an attack like this one, the drone being shot down. the fact he was going to go ahead with this attack that would have resulted in the deaths of 150 people, is not

proportionate to what happened. >> the president would not be able undertake a strike without first understanding, digesting, considering, wrestling with the potential casualties. this is not what happened. the story that the president has told, the story that has continued to change. we learned yesterday planes were not in the air. we also learned yesterday that he was, in fact, briefed on potential casualties before this. by the way, it wasn't by a general as he told chuck todd yesterday. so we still don't know why trump called this operation off. there are any number of possibilities. perhaps it had something to do with casualties. i think women and children in yemen might find that ironic. perhaps it was because military officials talked him out of it. perhaps it was because tucker carlson talked him out of it. there's a concept that the simplest explanation is usually

the right one. when you have a simple leader, the simple explanation is probably the right one. trump just changed his mind. >> laura barron-lopez, i want to ask about the outcome. >> for two and half years president trump has veered between bellicose threats against meshamerica's enemies a getting the u.s. out of inta intractable wars, now he had a chance to choose. >> i think it was shocking that the president was tweeting about

it, but the president says one thing, i don't want to go to war, then the attack on the tankers wasn't anything big. then you have bolton and pompeo saying different things. other officials in his administration being more aggressive. so that sends a lot of mixed signals. it's difficult to tell what exactly trump's foreign policy is. >> liz what do you mike how we're peegsi ingpiecing this to. i keep using that phrase n, but there was no press briefing, there is a plasticity to this tale. >> there hasn't been a press briefing in 100 days or something. >> there you go. >> to me, the thing we all looked at is him all of a sudden having a proportionality crisis, when this is a person whoa use a jackhammer when an allen wrench would do almost all the time.

when we look at proportionality with this, or title ten funding that was destroyed, the ruling said hhs would be permanently harmed if we continued to fund clinics that actually provide comprehensive healthcare. proportionality is not even a word that should come out of his mouth. he doesn't fundamentally understand it. >> not in the lexicon for the president. >> no. >> general mccaffrey, let me turn to you again, to look ahead here to the consequences of this, is it your sense that a strike along the lines of the one the president was considering is now off the table? by scuttling this in the way he did or the way he tells us he did, does that take it off the table? >> i doubt cory shockey is just saying this, but there will not be a war in the middle east

unless there's a miscalculation by the iranians. if they struck one of our ships or downed one of our aircraft that would prompt a strong u.s. military response. other than that it makes no sense to fight in the persian gulf. military power could take out their irgc naval elements for sure in 72 hours. we can't keep the gulf open with military power. we can't get their nuclear weapons with military power. the iranians don't want a fight. the saudis clearly will be a target. the iranians will try to bring in the israelis. thoughtful people will pull back and at some point we have to talk to these people and reestablish a nuclear accord. >> ned price, you worked at the national security council in the way it should or has or -- >> different times. >> we have not had a crisis like the one we had thursday night during the course of this

presidency. what does this portend about how the president and how his advisers, both acting and confirmed will react to situations in the future. >> this administration has not faced a crisis that was not of its own making. hard-liners have dictated the contours of this crisis. i mean that both here in the united states and in iran. our hard liners when it comes to ir iran, people like mike pompeo and john bolton were wanting maximum pressure so iron would cow into a better deal. rather than restricting iran's nuclear program, iran is accelerating elements of it. iran is now emboldened. rather than subdue ironan's behavior, they are emboldened.

i think the challenge is hard-liners have been in the drivers seat. they brought us to the point of a near conflict, near confrontation a couple nights ago. the challenge is president trump has not intervened. the first time he intervened was a couple nights ago when he called off the strike. >> laura, you covered congress before. a stunning admission on the house speaker's part is she did not hear from the white house before this happened. what does that say to you, the one second in line to the presidency was not informed that this was considered. >> it's not surprising considering the relationship between the house democrats and the administration. it does, as you mentioned, it represents a brief of protocol, norms that have existed prior to the trump administration. which is when you're about to take a step like this, you do notify congress. also there's a whole question of not having an authorization for use of military force which is

something congress has not taken up eventually, and something democrats are hoping they can do. but this raises the question of whether or not trump even has certain authorizations to take action. >> we'll come back in a moment. my thank to barry mccaffrey. appreciate the time. you can see that interview with president trump tomorrow on "meet the press" with chuck todd. jerry nadler says hope hicks refusal to answer questions will help him and democrats. i will sit down with jeh johnson for an exclusive interview. we will talk about the i.c.e. raids the trump administration has planned for tomorrow. first the battle between former vice president joe biden and senator cooker. >> i thicory booker. >> i don't feel like i want an apology to me. this is something that he should speak to the public about. i think he has an opportunity

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welcome back to "up." this morning 22 democratic presidential hopefuls are in the palmetto state, the early he voting state of south carolina making that pitch to a critical voting block, black voters. all eyes are on former vice president joe biden who is still atempting to smooth things over after his controversial comments about working with

segregationist senators. his 2020 rival cory booker thinks he should apologize. is this direct confrontation about race or could it be a new phase for xwocory booker. laura, help us understand the dynamic here. it could be about the big issues or intraparty politics. what's your sense on what's been happening. >> this raises the larger question that a lot of people in the democratic primary have been asking is whether or not the party passed biden by. has that happened? is he just too out of touch with a lot of the policies they are all trumpeting now. one of those issues is the question of how to address thorny subjects such as race. biden decided to say i can work across the aisle or i can work in a bipartisan manner with

people i don't agree with, because i worked with fervent segregationists while i was in the senate. that didn't sit well with a number of african-american lawmakers. clyburn did come to biden's defense, so did another prominent black republican, but booker took a hard line saying you need to apologize, so did ka kamala harris and biden said no, i think you should apologize. this is back to your question, david, i think this is a bit of both. i think booker and harris probably do believe deep down there shouldn't be a nominee who speaks this way about race. but also it provides them an opening to attack the front-runner. >> through your work on reproductive rights, i want to read a quote from the "new york times." joe biden spent the early months

of his third presidential bid doing a lot of explaining justifying and pushing back. one thing he has not done is bow to critics and apologize outright this has been a hugely difficult thing for him. even in the controversy surrounding anita hill, and the details of that apology are elusive. >> when we talk about strom thurmond's south, his nickname, strom thurmond was spermen thurmond because women were advised not to go in the elev e elevator with him. his horrible past and then joe biden's history of saying i can appease and work with people and i don't support hyde and i have

the ability to smell peoples hair because that's what i do. do you really? what does orrin hatch's hair smell like? it's a totality that goes to your point. has the bdemocratic party and or society passed him by as far as like what is organically going to come to him as a leader and how that serves where we're going as a nation. >> ned price, i don't mean to have you read from your book, but help us understand how this is playing out in that field of these 22 plus candidates running for the democratic nomination. your candidate, running an op-ed proposing the douglas plan to deal with issues of discrimination. this is a moment where this is falling, where this conversation is falling and a broader discussion about race, about black americans and the democratic he electorate. >> i do work for and advise a rifle candidat rival candidate and you won't find me saying a critical word about joe biden. he is someone who served all

americans admirably. no one is accusing vice president joe biden of being a racist. they're accusing him of not being of the moment. asking whether this person who has been repeating some of these lines for years and years in some cases to no reaction is now the appropriate nominee for a party that's moving in a different direction. that's a legitimate question to ask. i think cory booker put it well when he said this is not any ordinary moment. these things that may not have registered three, four, five years ago when vice president biden was mentioning his work with strom thurmond or segregationist senators are registering now because we have a president in the oval office who gives voice to white nationalists, gives voice to racists, tries to disenfranchise minority voters, preys on our worst instincts. it's my sense you can't ignore that.

>> we will come back in a moment. president trump has promised to round up millions of undocument the immigrants, i.c.e. is planning raids in several cities starting tomorrow. former secretary of homeland security jeh johnson will join me for a conversation about that next. ♪ ♪ applebee's new loaded chicken fajitas. now only $10.99.

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>> watch, many more people will come up. that's what happened. president obama is the one who built those brizen ce prison ce.

>> the government doesn't know how many children are still not with their parents. they don't know, which i find inhe credible. >> i put them together. i'm the one that changed the plan. i changed the plan and i brought people together. >> that was president trump speaking on telemundo in the president's first interview with the spanish language broadcaster. there are 19,000 immigrants in border control custody, and officials say they have reached a breaking point. sources say i.c.e. will begin a massive roundup of undocumented families with final deportation orders in several cities tomorrow. joining me now is jay johnson. let start with these raids. these raids announced. how peculiar is it to do that, give this advanced notice. >> first, david, i have to respond to the last interview you just showed this has been

fact checked about 985 times now. in the prior administration we had no policy or practice separating families. let's make that clear. now, in terms of these enforcement actions which are apparently intended for tomorrow, even the most aggressive immigration enforcement person will tell you you don't announce in advance when you're intending to send i.c.e. ero out to conduct these operations. you don't tip off the very people you're looking for that you're looking for them. it's hard to believe that if tom holm is the immigration czar he would have advised president trump it's okay to do this. so they're starting off at a disadvantage by providing advanced notice. it's important for my grants to know their rights if i.c.e. ero comes knocking at their door.

you can't be deported unless there's been an order of deportation from an immigration judge after you have exhausted your remedies, if you have an asylum application pending, that proceeding has run its course. any appeals you have may have one their course. if someone is ordered deported in absentia, in many cases they have a right he to a rehearing in person. >> the acting head of i.c.e. -- and there is an acting head of i.c.e. -- says this is not about fear. this is something the obama administration did not do, you went after criminals but not families. tell us why you decided to target certain individuals. >> it's called prosecutorial discretion, many conservatives say it doesn't exist. there's discretion about how you apply and enforce the law. in the prior administration we

focussed on haven'trecent arrivals at the border but also on criminal. we focussed on convicted felons. and they did -- my three years in office, while the number of overall deportations went down, the percentage of those deported who were convicted felons, already in detention went up. little known fact, my last year in office, morale in i.c.e. went up in dramatically according to the federal employee viewpoint survey because i asked them to focus more like federal law enforcement officers and go after the really bad guys. >> going back to that interview on telemundo. you heard jose sound surprised that the administration can't say who is where when it comes to children and families. a lot of people are astounded that this policy continues to the extent it does. there were two pieces this week about a facility in clint, texas. the a.p. had a piece and the

"new york times" had a piece through the advantage of lawyers who are able to go in being housed by the federal government. lawyers warn that kids are taking care of kids and there's inadequate food, water and sanitation for the 250 infants, children and teens at the border patrol facility in question. many facilities have been driven well past their capacities. how do you read those pieces. a year hence, what do you make of the fact that you have children taking care of children. there are children who are children taking care of infants because they had them as young children, their mothers can't be found. your reaction, your emotional reaction to reading that. >> the first reaction of any american is there are certain basic human rights, certain level of basic human dignity

that everyone is entitled to. so we all hear these stories with great sympathy. as a former secretary of homeland security who oversaw this issue for three years, i also know that when you have infrastructure and facilities for x, but you have x times four, it's not going to be optimal. the circumstances, the conditions are not going to be optimal. we're at numbers right now, 144,000 apprehensions last month, which are incredible. the high on my watch was 66,000 in may 2014. 144,000, i have no idea what that looks like. >> that brings me -- >> the conditions clearly are not optimal. >> the "washington post" had this piece about a hack on a government contractor, the information those hackers were able to obtain. it paints this picture of this apparatus of government s

subcontractors working on government border issues. how different does this landscape look from when you left government to where it is now when you look at how the border is being handled. >> my he second year in office we had the second lowest number of apprehensions on our southern border since 1972. ap mren shprehensions are a str indicator of total attempts to cross the border. through much of 2015 and 2016 the numbers were pretty low. we had the spike in 2014, it went down significantly. and the moral of the story, by the way, david, you can do certain things with this administration to change enforcement policy, to ramp it up that will have at best a short-term impact on the numbers to drive them down. as long as the underlying conditions in central america persist, the push factors, we'll be doling wie in dealing with t over and over and over again. that's why it's so important to

investing to eradicate these policies. the president has suspended that aid, which is the wrong thing to do. >> can't let you go without explaining what went on in the situation room on thursday night. your reaction to the way all of this transpired, from what we have been able to piece together, how out of the norm that is. >> first, i can understand the difficulty of the decision. i can understand why the commander in chief might have second thoughts. totally get that. i think there was a little too much transparency -- >> twitter transparency? >> -- about all of this, which has the potential to seriously compromise such operations in the future. if the president is revealing publicly what the collateral damage assessment might have been, i can imagine that people

in the iranian government might be able to engineer what objectives were. the other point i'll make is, it's not simply a matter of evaluating an unmanned drone, aerial surveillance versus the possibility that 150 people might be killed. the iranian government is threatening vital international commerce through the strait. i think you have to look at it through that larger context. hopefully he they will dial back their aggressive actions in the strait, in the gulf in light of having been brought to the edge of this and rethink their strategy. we'll have to see. >> mr. secretary, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> jeh johnson joining me here in new york on set go to msnbc.com where you can watch the entire south carolina democratic convention. how many times did lawyers stop hope hicks from answering

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. this is "up." democrats on the house intelligence committee say they will subpoena phillip seyer. his attorney said he was feeling ill yesterday and slept through his alarm. house democrats are preparing a

lawsuit to force don mcgahn to testify. congressman jerry nadler telling politico that effort got a major boost this week thanks to what happened during a closed door interview with hope hicks. the former white house communications director refused to answer 159 questions on wednesday. lawyers objected to questions about president trump's decision to fire james comey, questions about michael flynn, at one point hope hicks refused to say where in the white house she used to have an office. nadler says all of that will be a huge help to democrats. we knew this was going to happen. the point was to dramatize for the court what the implications of this are. he said they witnessed an incredib incredible show. chuck, help me understand chairman nadler's line of

thinking here. you look at this transcript, some of the objections do seem surprising. >> on one hand it seems like it didn't go well, because she didn't answer anything. how key be satis could he be sa? the white house is asserting executive privilege over a bunch of stuff. executive privilege is a real thing. presidents of many administrations asserted it over many years. in order to challenge it, nadler has to get on the record the white house's refusal to permit hicks to answer questions. i he know when lawyers start talking procedure early in a saturday morning -- >> we have doughnuts. we'll be all right. >> that's procedurally what has to happen. they ask the questions, hopes refuses to answer, now they can go to court and challenge the assertion. >> help me with the semantics

here. executive privilege, testimonial immunity, are all these part and parcel of the same thing? >> no, they're different things. one is spurious, the other is real. absolute immunity i think is spurious. it's the notion that you cannot testify -- you can't even show up, whether you work for the president, a president, doesn't want you testifying, you don't even show up. you have absolute immunity. the only judge who looked at that issue, judge bates about ten years ago, he rejected it. it was a much longer opinion than that. >> naturally. >> if you boil it down, it says n nonsense. executive privilege is a different thing. it's legitimate. it has to be adjudicated on a question by question witness by witness basis. judge bates said you have to show up, if you want to assert executive privilege do that in the form in which you've been

subpoenaed to, then come back to me and i'll decide whether or not the privilege applies. >> help me understand this situation here. i have great sympathy for somebody who lives and dies by the alarm. he said he slept through it, wasn't feeling well. what's odd about this is all the press out the day before this testimony, this interview was to take place. he said he was looking forward to talking. what do you make of him not showing up? >> i think they probably felt their hands were tied. he doesn't show up. they have been met with a ton of resistance from the administration, from every person that they are trying to get information from, they had just been blocked by hope hicks a number of times. so i think they decided even if this was a case of an alarm clock not going off, they needed to take action. >> what's your read of where we are, chuck talking about the

legal process, but this is the fundamental debate now, what this congress is able to investigate, how quickly they are able to investigate. >> part of it might be that hope hicks thought 150 questions was disproportionate to the one -- >> proportionality is the word of the day here. >> living as a human in the world, all of this feels so much like putting off the inevitable. at what point if -- does the inevitable happen? how do we have an entire administration of people shoveling so many cards when some portion of the truth will reveal itself. >> chuck, respond to that lastly. >> a large portion of the truth has been revealed. it's in this thing called the mueller report. >> heard of it. >> has anyone read that? >> i read it. it's fascinating. it's worth reading. lots of people won't do it. so democrats in the house are

trying to bring it to life. it's a laborious process if they can't get people to answer questions. eventually they'll get some of it. if you want to know what happened, read the report. >> there's a blurb from chuck. check out chuck's podcast "the oath." pat fitzgerald is this week's guest. up next, new allegation of misconduct against the president, an exclusive interview jean carroll who said a chance meeting with president trump turned into a colossal struggle. >> that's when the adrenaline started. it became a fight. and it was -- it hurt. and it was against my will. and it was against my will a wealth of information. a wealth of perspective. ♪

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i was wearing just a black donna karen coat dress and tights. and it was a work of a second to reach in under my donna karen, it opened in the front, through

the dress, and pull down my tights. that's when i -- that's when my brain -- that's when the adrenaline started. it became a fight. that was writer e jean carroll detailing her allegation against donald trump and describes the incident in "new york" magazine in which she says donald trump assaulted her in a dressing room in bergdorf goodman. president trump denied the allegation, saying the incident never happened. he says he has never met this person. "new york" magazine published a photograph that depicts donald trump and e. jean carroll together. let me start with you. this is part of an excerpt that centers on her creation of her most hideous men in my life.

your reaction to it. she in this piece says she's the 16th woman to come forward here. there's a paragraph in which she names the 15 women who have come before her to allege something of this nature, an assault against president trump. >> i think that something that is super important to remember is women that are e. jean's age and a lot of these women coming forward. connie chung came forward with a really powerful story. women who had to go through so much in situations like that, are only now coming forward because #metoo happened. to think that someone should come forward or would come forward. is absurd to think there was a space for that to happen, for you to ever be living in the world again. i don't understand why somebody would think someone could come forward. someone stunning how trump drags you publicly for egregious offenses. she's an incredible woman in her own right. amazing career, comedy writer.

her book without this ex-empt would be an incredible book. with this excerpt it fills a time and space especially for somebody like me who has had the same career trajectory, to show what somebody went through of her age and time had to do to survive. >> the president coming out with this statement immediately after this was published online. i'm going to read a little bit from it. shame on those who make a false stories of assault to try to get publicity for themselves to sell a book or carry out a political agenda. like julie swetnick who falsely accused justice brett cavanaugh. this line the president is drawing between two women accusers. >> this is something that trump typically does, which is pick an example of something he thinks makes the rest of the accounts or everything else just false.

so and he has denied all of these allegations. and he likes to paint them as fake news or as completely made up and that there's no truth to any of them. but she's the 16th woman to come forward. against him. and we see no real response. ever since the, the tape that came out in the 2016 election. where trump you heard him talk about potentially physically assaulting a woman, other than the initial response to that from republicans, they don't talk about it any more, they don't really address when another woman comes forward to accuse trump. i expect there will be no response to this. >> and i just have to say to, it's the 16th woman, as a woman walking the earth, to have there be no move on the needle, no curiosity, no outrage it makes it pretty hard sometimes to wake up every day.

and it seems like a tool of disempowerment of in this larger scope of what we're doing and when we're looking at assaults on women, on equal pay, on reproductive rights, it really does feel like, a conspiracy. and i don't want to feel paranoid. but it does feel like there's a plan. >> that's what gets me. someone credibly accused the president of the united states of rape yesterday. with two contemporaneous witnesses, that's barely registering. yes, there's 16 others, yes we've seen the "access hollywood" tape. but we can't lose sight of what this is. and who this person is. the other point from the white house statement that got me yesterday, they called it unrealistic. you know, the president is denying it. okay. none of us were there. we can't duplicate this on the spot. i think her account is credible there are contemporaneous witnesses. but to call it unrealistic, by someone who has 16 other accusers, the "access hollywood"

tape. how does that happen exactly? >> one more thing from that statement. anybody has information that the democratic party is working with ms. carroll please notify us as soon as possible. indicating that the world should know what's really going on is a disgrace and people should pay dearly for such false accusations. thank you all very much for joining me here in new york. hope you tune in tomorrow, i'll be joined by christine greer, christina beltran. coming up in our next hour as they make their way to miami, most of the democratic candidates are spending a big weekend in south carolina. the 2020 contenders getting ready to address the south carolina democratic party convention. we'll take you to columbia, live. add not one, but two amazing sides. and top it off with dessert.

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this is "up" we start in south carolina where more than 20 presidential hopefuls have gathered for busy weekend worth of events, today in south carolina the democratic party convention in columbia, and there's a planned parenthood forum taking place, msnbc will carry their speeches live throughout the day. the convention is the largest gather of candidates before the democratic debate. which kicks off on wednesday. last night the candidates gathered at congressman jim

clyburn's world-famous fish fry, where they each had a few minutes to address voters. >> we make this government work for us and that means we're just getting started. >> we will have a president of the united states who is in the business not of beating people down, but lifting people up. >> we've got a president today who thinks he's going to win row election by dividing the american people up. >> whomever the democratic nominee is, we have to stay together to elect a democrat to the president of the united states of america. >> this is a fish fry, i want to end with this. from one dad, to guy who likes dad jokes, let's not flounder, let's get out there and kick some bass. >> the growns are audible. the "post and courier" making this note. few remember a clyburn fish fry

for anything that was said. the point of it it is the scene. high-profile politicians chowing down on a southern staple and getting loose on the dance floor. for the first time since he made controversial comments about working with segregationist senators, former vice president joe biden was in the same place as his rivals. recent survey of south carolina's black democrats still indicate biden has a wide lead over his competitors. white house correspondent for the pbs news hour and an msnbc contributor and co-host of the podcast "unredacted." and mara gay is a member of the "new york times" editorial board and an msnbc contributor and david coren is the washington, d.c. editor for "mother jones." and in the field garrett

headache, the south carolina democratic state party convention which is beginning at this hour. garrett for the uninitiated help us understand the fish fry, what it is and what the condiment was that you put on the fish last night. >> it's such a classic event david. it's old-school retail politics at its finest. it's almost a patronage event. you've had jim clyburn who set this event up decades ago to thank his volunteers, it's grown into something that draws thousands here. each candidate gets what they call a generous moment to address the crowd. anywhere from 45 seconds to a couple of minutes to introduce themselves. from a political standpoint i think the "post and courier" has it right, you won't impress anybody with your speech. but there's an opportunity for candidates good at retail to work the room, shake hands, look comfortable in this environment and pay homage to jim clyburn who is the state's most powerful political figure. in short it's a blast.

and i think the candidates really enjoy being down here in a very loose environment. and in a week that's a high-pressure cooker for them heading into the debate. as for the fish -- i ate about my weight in it with a ton of hot sauce and a little bud lite to wash it down. i can't complain, this is how campaigning should go. >> with impunity has garrett headac haik. this moment of patronage when you have to pay respect to jim clyburn. there was a lot of commentary about his week about his role within the democratic party, about what he represents today as we have this conversation about the democratic party of 2019. give us your sense of the role that he plays, the importance of kissing jim clyburn's rim ring in columbia. >> first of all i should say i've had that fish and it's really good. >> the second thing i'll say is that jim clyburn in a lot of way sass gate keeper. i remember when covering bernie sanders there was a big debate about whether or not bernie sanders even went to jim clyburn

to ask for his endorsement when he was running for hillary clinton. but the idea that jim clyburn is the old school democratic party there are people you have to pay your dues, you have to come, kiss my ring, understand how the party works. be in congress for a long time and figure out how things work here. there's this idea that people are saying look, jim clyburn you're really i think trying to come to the defense of somebody who people say you shouldn't in 2019 you can no longer laugh and joke about joe biden, you can no longer laugh about working with segregationists, the joke was they never called me a boy. you can say we have to work with people who have racist simply racist ideas. but you don't have to it joke about calling someone a boy and you don't have to ask the only black man running for president, cory booker, to apologize to you. it's definitely an important event. there are a lot of people looking and seeing jim clyburn

as the past of the democratic party and that's new era being ushered in by the aocs and other millennial democrats. >> this fight deerks bait that's broken out between senator booker and former vice president biden. just the porps of the black vote in south carolina is a huge reason why a lot of the candidates have gone to south carolina. what does that crucible look like to you? how the conversation is playing out there. >> i think 30% of it seems to be a little inside baseball. i would say the other 70% of it, i'm not sure in i don't know how the african-american vote has been breaking down within the primary field. sufficient multiple candidates of color and you have someone like elizabeth warren who i believe is making inroads with people of color and people like buttigieg who is making no words into things people of color. but i think that this issue with biden brings something interesting to me into the fore.

which is i don't think myself, that joe biden is racist. i don't think that joe biden is sexist. but people are going to wonder if joe biden is the guy to fight racism. to fight sexism. can you teach an old senator new tricks? is that enough to, to still want him? because you think he's the best person to fight against donald trump. >> never mind a dog, just an old senator. >> to philippe's point. there's been so much emphasis in the campaign of presenting him as a candidate who is not out of touch. we've heard arguments about age. this is something that the campaign is hyperaware of. >> it wasn't a great moment for joe biden. i don't think the problem is that he was working with senators back in the day.

who were segregationists. because he was a member of congress and part of his job was to work together to get things accomplished. i think the problem for me is that he seemed to romanticize this era of quote-unquote civility. as though it's something to aspire to. forgetting or ignoring the real history and the context of that civility. which is that it was only made possible by a longstanding pact between northern and southern democrats and some republicans in the country, and white politicians everywhere in the country. that started at the end of reconstruction and really, is still in some ways lingering today. which the pact was, let's exclude black americans from citizenship. and that is you know racist, the central, the central tension in american politics, once you've excluded this idea that americans who are black should get citizenship now you can be civil with one another.

that was the pact that existed in american politics for a long time. it means that joe biden may not fully understand or appreciate or being willing to talk about the fact that race is central to american politics and the fact that black americans have paid an extremely high price for that. i just -- for me, i listen to my dad's stories about that time, you know he was born in the late '40s, there's nothing civil about that era. that was an era in which it was a political pact that he's talking about that he's romanticizing that allowed black americans to be lynched. to be discriminated against. to be excluded from every part of american life. so i think clyburn feels that he knows joe biden. i don't think joe biden is a bad man. i think the question is does he understand this, does he care? can he learn? how does he talk about it? >> as you were bellying up to the bar to get a bud lite last night is this something that people were talking about?

was this debate something on the minds of those who were gathered there at that event in columbia last night? >> it's interesting, david, it was, it's something that people were keenly aware of. folks who told me they're not paying close attention to the race so far. are aware of this controversy. but i have to tell you among the black voters who i spoke to here in south carolina most of the folks i talked to told me two things. number one they're willing to give joe biden a little benefit of the doubt. don't think he's a racist. they think this was an inartful comment. don't see him as someone who is a partner of segregationists. they don't want to see him approach this in a trumpian way. the voters i talked to wanted to hear an apology from joe biden. that perhaps he could do better. and the other political dynamic i think is important in this state right now, it does feel like joe biden is running against himself. the level of knowledge about the other candidates, the level that the average voter has dialled in in this state is tell relatively low. joe biden benefits of the fact

that he is such a known commodity in this state. as the other candidates start to rise, the risks for him become a little greater. right now it's joe biden against a bunch of other people that folks have only sort of begun to become familiar with. >> there's a great piece by jonathan allen on nbc news.com saying this is a race for joe biden to lose, the race is joe biden's to lose at this point. >> not to criticize john, i think that's obvious at this point. he comes in with the most name recognition, people know him and most democrats have been supportive of him as vice president and he was seen largely in a positive way by most of the democratic electorate despite problems with the anita hill hearings many years ago. i think he has gotten to the point where well that's joe. it's part of his shtick. it gives him a little bit of protection. but not in this case. there are times when he goes

beyond the -- well, that's joe, argument. i think he's on the cusp of this generational moment. when you talk about clyburn being the old guard. when you talk about aoc and the millennials looking for a different approach to some of these identity questions and racial politics. you talk about how people look for him in a #metoo movement or a moment where racism seems to be on the rise, and particularly fuelled by the president at the moment. whether he has the ability to meet this moment, his skills as a politician, as a legislator. as an orator, as a generally good guy that people like, are all there. whether he can meet these other challenges at the age he is, and with all the baggage he has is really the big question that gets to john allen's question is whether he can basically beat himself. >> david to save myself a horrible day on twitter, when i

said inside baseball, i meant the booker/biden phone call back and forth. not the whole issue itself. >> i think the central think that's maybes we sit here is we have a president who ran on make america great. people who saw it as going back to the time when segregationists could be in the senate working and looking civil while also calling for black people to be killed all over the country. that's the moment that joe biden is talking about. that's the moment those men were talking about. there's a although lot of people i talked to that joe biden is going after this crowd, makes them very nervous. african-americans were suffering all over the country because people were quote-unquote getting along. people have seen joe biden going to the moderates as saying look white identity politics is in some ways in people's minds, he could be going after these people. >> i think what he's, i think what he thinks he's doing is that he's trying to respond to the divisiveness that trump has

bred and he's saying there was a time when we actually, democrats and republicans could talk. now some of them were segregationists, some of them were bob dole it all blurs together in his mind. >> hickenlooper said i can work with mitch and no one wanted to hear that. >> we're going to leave it there. thanks to our low country culinary correspondent, garrett haik. can you watch the the entire south carolina democratic convention. including the candidates' speeches, we'll be playing close attention to the stage behind garrett there, we'll bring you the speeches, when they begin. is staying happy and healthy. so, i add protein, vitamins and minerals to my diet with boost®. boost® high protein nutritional drink has 20 grams of protein, along with 26 essential vitamins and minerals your body needs. all with guaranteed great taste.

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this is "up" the first democratic debates are four days away. for many democratic candidates this will be thir chance to break away from the crowded field. if there's anyone who knows a thing about debate prep, it's philippe ryan who play the role of donald trump when hillary clinton was preparing for the presidential debate. here hillary clinton practices how to avoid a hug from donald trump. let's pause here to take a look. >> i'll tell you what her iran plan is, it's to pay ransom. ransom. did you see that pile of cash? i mean i've got a lot of money,

and i've got a big plane, i couldn't fit that much money. it was like, i'm sorry, i know if i step away, i get too close and she loses the debate she's going to say i got too close, ridiculous, i was standing at my electric tern. there was 1.7 million in cash they couldn't wire it? that's ridiculous, i ran a casino, we're in vegas, i've anyone seen that much money. the ran himself, it's amazing how prescient that was. what are candidates doing ahead of the debates, what should they be doing? i'm struck by this line. gabe benedetti. who is a friend of the show. no one has any idea on earth about how a candidate is supposed to be prepared. >> you have 20 different candidates who have 20 different plans. i guarantee you not all 20 are

good or smart, you have 20 different people who have debated to different extent. some are good at it. the biggest thing is, first of all there's a superficial em elment to it. the five of us are wearing makeup. men are wearing ties, when you first turn it on, we're all jaded. you think i know all of these guys. i know all of these candidates, i see them all day on tv. this will be the first time you see them together. it will be like a surprise party. you're surprised who is there. like oh wow, pete settle and he's wearing a jacket and bernie came and bernie is bernie and kamala, i'm so happy kamala is here. we've never visually seen this. in 2015 had you a bunch of white republicans and carly fiorina and ben carson. i don't think we've ever seen two women on the same stage. in simple terms if you're

preparing to go into this debate. being a different person than you are before, you have problems. someone like elizabeth warren who has great momentum probably going to do well on debates. she's going to do what she's been doing. you've got a lot of people out there who are 1%ers, trying to be more. there's a reason why they're 1%ers, it might be reinforced. >> i want to dip into this and see jim clyburn, the congressman from south carolina speaking on the stage at the democratic convention. let's listen to what he has to say. >> congressman i came here today to seek relief from my cotton farm. but that's not what's on my heart. i want to talk to you about the people, the families in my

community who go out to work in the morning. come home after 5:00, in the evenings. they load their children up in automobiles, and take them down to the parking lot of the local library. where it closes at 5:00. and they sit out in the parking lot in their automobiles to do their homework. something needs to be done about them. so that might i'm sharing this with some of my colleagues. and i was told that this is common. that children in my neighborhood go down to the local fast food mcdonald's and sit there in the parking lot of mcdonald's, to do their homework. because they do not have the

internet at home. i think i'm in touch with the school district and i asked them what was the adoption rate of clarendon county school district number one, the home of scotch branch high school. and they told me that only 34% of the students in their school district had the internet. that means that over 60%, about 60% do not have the internet. now ladies and gentlemen, clarendon county school district number one is where brown versus board of education all started. we worked together as a people to get rid of separate but equal. but if we do not do something to

connect our children so they can be properly educated in the state that has a sandrd of minimally adequate for education, we are not going to grow good citizens. >> we have just experienced in south carolina, the closing of five rural hospitals. i don't want to embarrass anybody, but i'll name fairfield county closed, williamsburg county closed. allendale, bamberg, barnwell, these rural hospitals closing. why? because we cannot provide them with the ability to do telemedicine. we're not going to do that unless we have broadband in rural communities in south carolina.

this is a great country. it does not have to be made great again. it's a great country and it's been a great country for a long, long time. our challenge, it seems to me, is make the greatest of this country accessible and affordable for all of our citizens. that's what we've got to do. >> jim clyburn there, congressman from the 6th district of south carolina. speaking at the south carolina democratic convention. we'll continue to monitor what the majority whip has to say. we're talking about debates, looking ahead to the debates. yamish, we're talking about the difficulties of prepping for something like this. gabe benedetti talking about the risks associated with prepping for them. you can tell from moments in the past you can tell a candidate

has something he wants to say. in terms of sheer time limitations how do you avoid that happening? how do the candidates talk to each other? in the past that's what you want. the interaction that philippe was describing a few moments ago between one candidate and the other. >> i think the worst thing you could have is if you start repeating the same line over and over. we've seen it in debates in the past you can tell someone had like three talking points and they're sticking to them for all they can hold. i think especially in this democratic race authenticity is so important. that is good if you're a candidate is good at being authentic and can speak to the things they truly believe. because i think the things that i've talked to when i talk to sources, they tell me they're looking for someone who actually believes in what they're saying, not so much that they agree with everything the person is saying, but they feel like if they check the quote receipts or check their past that they have a consistent viewpoint. >> mara weigh in on this, what we're going to be listening for on wednesday. what will evince to you the

authenticity. >> i totally agree, i think it's authenticity and i think democratic voters, primary voters are looking for something who wants to stand up to donald trump. and there are ways to do that that involve inpeachment or don't but if candidates are on that stage trying to talking about the coming together of americans over middle ground. i don't think that's going to resonate. i think that democrats feel like they've been beat up for years and they want fire. >> how much does policy prep matter at this point, versus style? is he going through briefing books on policy, joe biden or is he going through -- >> if joe biden in particular has to study policy at this point, it's not going to work out well. he knows what he knows and he's actually a smart guy who has worked object domestic policy, foreign policy. i expect he'll talk about iran, he was involved in that deal,

too. i to me what's interesting is you have biden and then you have two or three candidates really, bernie sanders and elizabeth warren who are within striking distance. they are one or two or a few points behind and everybody else at 2% or 1%, all of those people are going to want to have a moment. the whole type about run something i can get in the debate. i can have my moment. people will see how great i am. the money will come in, i'll shoot up in the polls. you'll have a lot of people trying to figure out what is my moment? is it the one line that marco rubio said over and over and over again that boom ranged against him in the new hampshire debate? or is it some gimmick? and are they going to get the chance for this? i'm going to look for those moments and see if anybody can actually pull that off and get some attention. if they don't a lot of these candidates are going to stay at 1% or 2%.

>> my colleague joy reid is in south carolina and she attended the fish fry last night and they had the yellow dog breakfast this morning. what can we expect as the convention goes on? what's the agenda look like? what are you hoping to hear from these candidates today, joy? >> good morning, david. i think what we're expecting is each of these candidates have to, i think david cornyn was making that point. it's a field of 24, not all 24 are here. they're going to be speaking all throughout the day. kamala harris drew the hot card in a sense, she's the opening act for all of these candidates. we've seen that a lot of these candidates have pretty big organizations, cory booker has a big organization here. for kamala harris, cory booker and joe biden, this is a must-win state. a must win place or show state. the pressure is more on those three in a lot of ways. elizabeth warren last night got a very warm reception, she's somebody that is on the move.

that is rising, she wants to try to lock that in. we're hearing from a lot of african-american women who are taking a look at warren. they're taking a second look at her. people may have gone in thinking biden is the man. right now everyone is trying to be not biden. someone is going to stand out as the main alternative to him. i think at this point it is warren, harris, and cory booker who are fighting for the not-warren spot and south carolina is where they could get it. >> i was talking with garrett hake and i asked him about the degree to which people were talking about the dynamic between the former vice president joe biden and senator cory booker. what is your sense of how much that's resonating for those who gathered at the fish fry, it's interesting, we interviewed cory booker. i did ask him about that. back and forth between himself and biden. joe biden was not talking about

bipartisanship when he made those comments. they were segregationist democrats, he was just in a sense gratuitously praising his ability to work with these pretty problematic figures for african-americans. but what i have seen is a very generational divide on that issue. older african-americans we spoke with at the fish fry are writing that off. they're saying look, we know joe biden, joe biden was barack obama's guy and they're pricing in anything about joe biden that might be problematic. if you think about it the very things that are now rankling his candidacy are the things that made him valuable to barack obama. he's a guy who can translate the older white american to people who might have been uncomfortable with obama. he kind of made -- he said to those people -- obama's okay. so a lot of people are saying the same thing about him. younger african-americans, younger people we're talking to here, they are shopping, they are not sold on joe biden. more shopping among younger voters and older voters pretty much pricing in whatever you hear about joe biden, they're

still with him. >> looking forward to that interview and all the conversations on "a.m. joy" coming up from columbia. >> you look at the debate prep footage, how much work is that? >> it's tremendous. when you're spending hours a day for weeks on end in that kay, from the general election, you're not doing other things, you're not shaking hands, you're not raising money. some people don't take it seriously. the thing we're not talking about is there are going to be ten podiums, but there will be an 1 1th player on the field. it's going to be donald trump, live-tweeting. and to go back to biden, we did not think would be successful at this point because he was an older white male who had been in washington for a long time. people are giving him a pass to some extent. think he's going to be the best against trump. what happens when you're watching these debates and there's someone else who defines

him. if i'm elizabeth warren, i would say there's ten of us on stage and each one of us are better than you. i hope it's me, i'm going to make sure everyone knows why you lost. you're going to have kamala harris sitting next to bernie sanders, someone might say, biden is i have other options. who will be good against trumpth and then you have problems like are these racial comments going to be a problem. some advice from the veteran prepper. >> i do prep for the -- you know armageddon, but that's different. coming up with i.c.e. set to make good on the president's promise to round up undocumented immigrants, we'll talk to a lawmaker in lawmaker in one key sanctuary city.

you have again children who are taking care of children. this are children who are taking care of infants because they have them as young children. their mothers can't be found. your reaction, your emotional reaction to reading the story? >> the first reaction of any american is -- there are certain basic human rights, certain level of basic human dignity that everyone is entitled to. >> reaction separation of migrant families from former homeland department secretary

jeh johnson. the raids are going to take place in ten cities. joining me is democratic congressman from new york. i was looking at your twitter feed. something that secretary john johnson said is it's important for the immigrants to understand their rights. you tweeted off comments making that point. the counsel they should take if this were to happen to them tomorrow. what's your reaction to this, the effort that the president teased a few days ago, what's being reported now. what's likely to happen tomorrow. >> round-ups happen on a monthly and daily basis all over america. so this is opportunistic. i think it's designed to send out fear out there. i think it's you know, lacing communities with fears. sending 0 ut a chilling effect to communities and particularly cities like new york city.

which are sanctuary cities. they're not cities that harbor for example violent criminals, they're cities that allow for example a mom to take her kid to school without the fear they're going to call ins on them. cities that allow a senior to go in a emergency room in a hospital without fear they're going to call authorities or a woman to go to police precinct to report domestic abuse, without fear that the police captain is going to call immigration and get deported. that's what a sanctuary city is, it's a safety net to provide basic services. so we, it's not harboring violent criminals. this is an effort to misrepresent that in that way and this action by the president is just basically to set out fear. he's running country based, pushing the buttons of fear. we must equip the population with information with, a list of things to do in case if and when that happens. but that happens every day, every week, every month of the

year. >> what's your sense of the public's engagement of this. this is, the family separation policy was supposed to have ended a year ago. it's continued this week along the border. and there was a quote in michelle goldberg's piece, column for the new york times about fatigue, there's so much badness in the world today, you can push stuff out of mind, things can fall out of mind how do you stay engaged with the real personal issues that are happening here. >> once you go to the border and see the situation down there and a mom sleeping with their children on the floor packed like sardines or you understand the concept of a woman getting their 9-month-old baby ripped away from her. i think this marks you permanently. for me it's somewhat personal because i've seen the border, had a center in the district that had children that were ripped away from their parents. >> under cover of the night. >> this continues. i know there are crisis where

you have the iran crisis, with the drone recently, you have all kinds of crises popping up on a weekly basis. but that's something that marks the soul of our nation to have children that may be breastfeeding from their mother ripped from them? >> we have heard so little from the democratic candidates about immigration and democrats don't like to talk about the issue, they've ceded so much ground to the president. what should the democratic message to the people of the united states about immigration be. other than anti-trump. we're not in favor of putting children in cages. what's the message here? >> i agree with you first, mara. i think they have been silent on this issue. this is going to be a critical issue in this race. this is a wedge issue that the president has chosen to run on, right? he's going to continue to run on attacking sanctuary cities. he's going to continue to represent immigrants as violent criminals, he's going to

continue to wedge this issue in the middle of america and they're being conspicuously silent on this. i ask them to come out. they should come out with a full immigration plan. they should push back against this trump rhetoric. if they want the immigrant vote or the latino vote. the asian vote. the african vote. they have to come out to a substantive program. think they're being con speckously silent. >> fundamentally. this a very difficult issue. it's not difficult to say you shouldn't put children in cages or separate them from their parents. that's easy from a progressive approach. but if you have people coming to the border in large numbers and figuring out what to do with them, other than dealing with them in a humane way, ultimately what happens when they get in and how do you deal with those who don't show up for the hearings that you know now they're going to be targeted? i keep wondering, i look at the

democrats in the house, i look at the democratic candidates. if anybody does have a real way of talking about this that can go head to head with donald trump's hate-fuelled demagoguery. there is a way to deal with this. here's what we should do. >> i've been thinking long and hard about this and i say why is this developing this way? you know, they don't vote. but guess what, their relative votes, their neighbors vote. many people around their lives vote. so they may not be able to vote themselves, but other people do. i've introduced the family reunification act. i want it make sure that there's a plan, they are substantive proposals on the table to address this particular issue. that maybe some of these candidates can look at. they should come to an immigrant community. i haven't seen any of them in an immigrant community talking to immigrants about immigration. >> when you read the stories of

the children, 10-year-olds taking care of 4-year-olds, children with no toothbrush. what's the plan? what do you think democrats should be pushing? >> i think there needs to be greater investment in insuring that at the border you have pediatricians that take a look at these children. they're coming through rough terrain, desert, mountains, they come in in real bad shape. they should be looked at by a professional. they should be looked at by a pediatrician. there needs to be an infrastructure of services there for these families that come in and they're seeking asylum most of them led by women. by women. little children, too. really horrendous stuff, when you see it yourself, it changes your life. so i think that there needs to be an investment. the problem is that many of us feel that if we give money to this administration, they're going to take the money and troy to build a wall. they're going to take the money and try to -- put the deportation machine on steroids. this is a real -- we must insure that whatever money we give for services down there, that it

will be used specifically and exclusively for that. >> you mention there's a lot of stuff going on. you call for impeachment. i want to get your perspective on breakdown between the executive and legislative branch. funding, the issue of impeachment. you're on the house foreign affairs committee also, you're keenly aware of what happened on thursday night. how deep is the fissure, we're talking about fixing this immigration problem. is there any hope for any sort of repairability of that divide? >> the president, he cannot hold the country hostage. i saw congressman clyburn. i heard him speak about broadband. the president cannot say for example we want to do infrastructure. woe want to make sure we fix our rural bridges and tunnels, we do broadband, we do second avenue subway for east harlem, right? and gateway tunnel, right? >> you cannot tell the american

people that you want to do infrastructure and then say well we could only do this if you don't investigate me. you know, we are adhering to what article 1 of the constitution tells us to do. we cannot abdicate our responsibility. if we go smoke we're going to see if there's fire. i came up for impeachment last year before it was popular, right? so you know i still stick with it. i think that the mueller report is one report that everybody should read. in fact i was away, i was going through the airport. i had had like a little luggage piece, the guy said to me, what you got in there? and i said i got the mueller report. he couldn't believe it everybody should read it. i think it's a document that tells a lot. >> stay with us, we'll come back and talk about iran. we'll be back with much more on "up."

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what went into that decision not to strike back against iran. your observations of what happened there? i continue to be struck by the fact that your speaker, house speaker nancy pelosi said in comments yesterday, she had no advanced i'm concerned that we have a muddled strategy to address iran or any similar situation. >> do you think? >> well, no -- >> with the trump administration? >> look, this is bad for america obviously but we should be developing a strategy along with our allies, right? to address iran issues or other similar issues across the world. i think that that situation cannot be trusted. >> your reaction to all of that. i'm curious how all of that played out on capitol hill about what the white house is saying about what happened next, we were talking with general mcbarry about this takes strikes off the table, being so transparent and public about what was being considered. >> i'm struck by the idea that

the president said that striking these three targets and killing 150 people would not have been a, quote, proportional response, but then the question i've been asking the white house is what is a proportional response and we don't know the answer to that. next week could be the president finally settling what we're going to do is take down this tower and that will be a proportional response. the other thing to think about is the reporting, great reporting in the "new york times" today that the president was talking to tucker carlson of fox news -- >> noted foreign policy expert tucker carlson. >> while balancing that information with the experts that he employs with the white house. i think to see the president thinking about kind of these large foreign policy issues and relying on television personalities, i think just reminds us that this president is someone who is fueled and getting advice from all sorts of unconventional sources. >> david corn, i had a fevered dream last night. >> tell us about it. >> i was stuck in a green room and i watched tucker carlson's show. you have this beginning part of the show in which he's talking about john bolton saying he is not a normal person, that was

his take away as he played excerpts of interviews that he had done with onbolton, moved from there to glen greenwald invoking jeffrey goldberg conspiracies going back to the iraq war. we know of the friendships, relationships we learned more about it with paul manafort and sean hannity the degree to which yes there are experts around the president there, some acting some officials to offer advice but this whole other crew of advisers on the side. >> it's scary, but we don't have a functioning government at the moment in a lot of ways, particularly at the top. the agencies do what they do and a lot doesn't require coordination or even instruction from the white house, but in the white house itself and particularly on foreign policy there is no functioning government. there usually is they call is the interagency process where you bring in state department, defense department, commerce, whatever might be involved and you come up with options and you debate things and then it goes up to the president, he has

advisers, he may turn to outside advisers, but there is a process in which options and debates are presented. this doesn't happen. we have a person in the white house, you know, you say -- thinking about foreign policy, i don't think he thinks. i don't think he thinks he needs to think. he thinks he knows everything. he has told us that many times. he acts as of impulse, he has no ideology. i don't think he really cares about much other than what's good for him. so, therefore, he can be swayed in any different direction, he wants to have fire and fury against north korea, then he says kim jong-un is his best pal and sends love letters to him. then he lies to chuck todd by saying i didn't hear about the casualties until ten minutes before. >> he had to ask about it. >> there is no way that options are presented to the president. this is not working. if we don't have a working government we shouldn't have war. if you are going to have a war you need things to function and so i think in the end he probably made the right decision for all the wrong reasons. >> congressman, last question here.

what can you and your colleagues do about how many acting officials there are in this government, david laid out the contours of that debate as much as there was one in the situation room, and you have the defense department greatly handicapped by the fact that the acting defense secretary was present but not imbued with the authority that a confirmed secretary would have, even worse in this situation because that acting secretary of defense is on the way out yet to be replaced which another acting, but i assume to be nominated defense secretary. >> now that we have secretary tucker -- >> there you go. >> you don't need anyone else. >> been through as many confirmation as the other, i suppose. >> obviously there's havoc in the white house. maybe that's -- this is his management style. this is crisis management, constantly moving people in and out. no stability. inability to develop a strategy that's a confident strategy not only for our nation but for the rest of the world. i think that the situation room is in trouble. >> management by crisis i think you could say. yamiche, quickly here. >> i think the bottom line is it was remarkable to hear both

democrats and republicans say the president showed restraint, even if he was going with his instincts, even if he was listening to all these different unconventional sources and all this people, at the end of the day the president didn't get the united states into war and he's getting really credit for that which is remarkable. >> small victories in washington. thank you very much for joining us here on set. thanks to my panel for the hour. thanks also to joy reid and garrett haake who join us from columbian. we are back sunday at 8:00 eastern time right here on msnbc. up ahead, special coverage of the south carolina democratic party convention with joy reid, the reverend al sharpton talking to the 2020 contenders in that crucial primary state. 0 contendt crucial primary state. se? we know their rates are good, we know that they're always going to take care of us. it was an instant savings and i should have changed a long time ago. we're the tenney's and we're usaa members for life. call usaa to start saving on insurance today. i come face-to-face with a lot of behinds.

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quick correction here, i called garrett haake our low country culinary correspondent, my apologies, our midlands culinary correspondent. thank you very much for watching, a special south carolina edition of "a.m. joy" with joy reid starts right now. ♪ ♪ i'm in this fight because i believe that the time for small ideas is over.

>> it is a fight for our future and a vision of our future and a vision of our future, of our america. >> whomever the democratic nominee is, we have to stay together and elect a democrat president of the united states of america. >> this election is not about one person, one office, it is about who we are as a nation and who we must be to each other. >> we are the 99% and 99% is a hell of a bigger number than 1%. >> good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy," live from columbia, south carolina. that is just a small portion of what democrats heard last night at congressman jim clyburn's world famous fish fry. over the next several hours south carolina democrats will hear more from the candidates who are running for president as the party's state convent