nicolle wallace will be back for "deadline white house" tomorrow. and she will be part of the big night we have here. she and brian start live coverage of the first debate, beginning 7:00 p.m. i'm be there, too, with the old big board. chris matthews will be in the spin room in miami. you don't want to miss it. first, "mtp daily" with chuck todd starts right now. if it is tuesday, breaking news on the crisis at the border. the house set to vote on billions in emergency aid for migrants. democrats are divided whether to give the president the money he's asking for. plus, the white house border chief resigns after two months on the job amid more reports of children living in squaler at

u.s. built facilities. and welcome to miami. the stage is set for the first democratic primary debate. immigration is one of the big issues the candidates will confront. welcome to tuesday. as if miami can't be more hot and humid, it is. thank you, miami, feels like home. it is "mtp daily." i am chuck todd in miami where it is hotter than usual ahead of the first democratic debate which kicks off tomorrow night on the stage. we begin tonight with breaking news on an issue dominating the political conversation nationally, the humanitarian crisis having to do with the migrants coming over the southern border. amid reports of terrible, unsafe, unsanitary conditions at facilities that are housing migrant children, the trump administration border chief, the acting customs and border protection commissioner john sanders, is stepping down after two months on the job. again, he was acting because his boss is the acting homeland security secretary. you need a score card to keep up

with the temporary replacements in the administration sometimes. that news hours after the cpb said it was moving a group of 100 unaccompanied children into a texas facility where some of the worst conditions have been documented. so to give you a sense of some of the conditions, president trump told the hill he would like to see some of these facilities give kids toothbrushes and basic toiletries, because now apparently they don't have them. at the same time, he is claiming his administration is taking care of migrants better than the obama administration did. >> are you concerned about the conditions at these border facilities? >> yes, i am, very concerned. and they're much better than they were under president obama by far. and we're trying to get the democrats to agree to really give us some humanitarian aid, humanitarian money. >> at this hour on capitol hill, there is intense drama over the fate of this humanitarian aid. we expect a vote perhaps soon on

the hours version of the emergency legislation which would allocate $4.5 billion for the white house request to address this dire situation with the migrant children. speaker pelosi is battling a revolt in the progressive wing of the caucus who worry giving the trump administration any of the money will only be used to help carry out the president's aggressive tactics when it comes to immigration and at the border. still, pelosi made a full court press today for support built in public and private, telling her caucus in a closed door meeting a vote against this bill is a vote for donald trump and his inhumane outside the circle of civilized attitude toward the children. she asked the caucus does anyone have a problem with the bill? and according to a democratic aid, the reaction was silence. politically it is a test, an issue so deeply personal and political and yes, presidential.

kelly o'donnell following the action, jacob sober off. kelly, let me start with you. where are the democrats on numbers here, and how many progressive democrats could pelosi afford to loose if we're getting into the vote counting. >> chuck, just in the couple of minutes that you have been doing your intro, we had a few updates from the committees involved here on capitol hill about what they're voting on, and what is new is the progressives you referred to have been able to insert some additional language in the legislation that the house will consider tonight. at 5:30, step one of the rules committee will meet to prepare the legislation for a later full vote. so this will go into the evening. it is $4.5 billion. the progressives want

accountability and certainty as you pointed out, they don't want the trump administration to be able to somehow have consequences not intended by congress, unintended consequences that would go against the sort of policy of feelings of the democratic caucus. look for things like additional help on the legal side, look for provisions to pull back from contractors who don't fulfill the proper requirements. all kinds of things to try to make the conditions better and keep away funding for things that democrats find not to be a policy they want to support. >> kelly, i don't blame the progressives being skeptical. every time they handed the administration what they thought was appropriated money for a specific thing. >> reprogramming. >> they reprogrammed the money. how do they know these guarantees are somehow going to

be followed by this administration. >> putting in language to anticipate some of the ways it could be used. for example, writing and language, to not take money from this pot or that pot to use for something else. it is more of writing a contract where you're anticipating what an adversary would do. here's the other problem, chuck. we have limited time until the fourth of july recess, and the senate bill which nancy pelosi said is a good bill is very different than the house bill. and the president has committed to backing the senate bill. so we have to still get through the house and then see if the house and senate can find some meet in the middle point that will be okay for progressives that said they had to fight this one. you pointed out, speaker pelosi said to her members, a vote no on this is a vote for donald trump. so she has really been pushing for unity in her caucus. she says unity is power.

>> that's serious ratcheting up. i have a feeling you don't get to watch the debate, they have to make a bill become a law in the next 72 hours, while we deal with a couple of debates here. kelly o'donnell, thanks very much. jacob, let's get on it. this money is needed. >> number one, hhs is where the unkpd migrant children are housed, taken care of. by all indications, everything i have seen, hhs has competent licensed child care professionals dealing with, we have to call it what it is, surge, record numbers of families coming across the border at this point. i agree with you. i don't think the fight for more transparency and accountability is not one worth having. that's always been the issue. >> i want to put up something that alexandria ocasio-cortez said.

we need to stop funding detention of children under any and all circumstances. what nancy pelosi is asking them to do is look, you've got to fund these and yes, they're going to be housed at these centers. and that seems to be if you hold this position the way aoc holds this position, it is a hard vote. >> the argument is a necessary evil. we have to have this immigration enforcement system to keep the trains running. i think it is a good debate to have. for 30 years, starting with the clinton administration, prevention through deterrence, had this, every time you have more deterrence, more people die trying to cross. right now it is levels we have never seen before in the trump administration. they keep putting out messages that in the past ten years, nobody died, no child died in custody. six have died in the course of the last year. if there's anytime to debate the system, it is now. >> the acting cpb guy leaves

because the guy who had been the confirmed cpb guy is the acting dhs secretary. what does it mean practically for facilities run at the border. i'm sorry there's command and control has to mean something? >> made me think back to a year ago when i was inside the border patrol processing center, agents would say as an aside, we are stretched to the max, stressed out. we don't know what we're supposed to do today versus tomorrow. imagine how they feel now. >> they don't know who they're supposed to go to, that person is afraid to do anything. >> at the end of the day, who makes the policies they're supposed to carry out. border patrol gets a bad rap. they're law enforcement officers that are like cops on a beat. there are good cops and bad cops. when they have this level of disarray at the top, how are you supposed to do your job. >> really quick. whether you like it or not,

you're the network's expert on immigration laws. congratulations on that. elizabeth warren is joining julian castro, talking about this later, wants to decriminalize asylum seekers, decriminalize immigration. what would that mean for border patrol? >> the reality is many people that are coming here in order to get into this country are declaring asylum. what many of them are doing is looking to reunite with family members that are here. one option, according to some experts, giving people family reunification visas to come here, not go through the asylum process. i would be curious to see if that's part of the decriminalization proposal. >> and then of course there is a practical expense that's come with trying to enforce asylum laws. >> at the end of the day these are lies. every day you are hearing horrific, horrible stories, and

they can be stopped. >> in american custody. that's the part. we're america, supposed to be different. thank you very much. i am joined by someone who sits at the center of the drama on capitol hill. and also the democratic presidential debate. a democrat from california, happens to be the national co-chair of the bernie sanders campaign. congressman, good to see you. your colleagues and yourself working hard to get some of the new addendum to the funding bill. from what kelly o'donnell reported, are you getting this in the bill? >> we have basic health standards that need to be met. we also have commitment that unlicensed facilities can't last for 12 months. at this point i feel like we'll get a lot of progressives.

>> i am curious, i understand the skepticism by aoc or others in the progressive caucus about appropriate ating money to something that you think you're appropriate ating it for, and finding out it is repurposed, especially when it comes to anything remotely touching the immigration process. why are you confident that the new restrictions you are putting in aren't just going to get ignored by this administration? >> chuck, i'm not confident but the language is more restrictive. in previous appropriations, there was no restrictive language. the custom was an administration if they want to reprogram comes to congress, and congress exercises oversight. this administration didn't do that. now we have explicitly prohibited the administration from transfers funds. we get $82 million more for basic supplies, diapers, toothpaste, than the administration wants, and they're not allowed to use a

dime for any other purpose. >> what would a -- is there any bigger deal to be done, is there a bigger compromise on how to deal with the asylum laws? is there anything in here that is remotely at all able to compromise or is this about let's take care of the children, and we're going to have the political debate down the road? >> this is the most shameful thing that's happened that our country has done, the way we are treating the kids in my lifetime. i think there is a way to get to the root of the problem. when i talk to republican colleagues, two ideas come up. one, why not do -- the irony is the obama administration started it, trump said it was an obama idea, so we're not going to do it. second thing, we started to get

u.s. aid to guatemala which 50% according to the vanderbilt study reduced gang violence. and they're cutting those programs. i think people want smart solutions, they understand there has been influx of people coming to the border that's not sustainable. there are solutions that can get bipartisan support. they're not getting discussed. >> elizabeth warren called for illegal immigration to be decriminalized. not the first candidate, castro was the first candidate. i'm curious, senator sanders, is he open to that and where are you on that issue? >> i would prefer that obama approach, i prefer that we have in country processing. if what she means is that we shouldn't be holding people in detention facilities with human rights abuses, then i am sympathetic, but there still has to be a recognition that we're a nation of laws, people should come to this country following our laws as most immigrants have

come to america. >> we do, though, have a crisis in our hemisphere. how do we solve this in our hemisphere? ultimately you talked about you want some investment there. should we open our doors temporarily? >> i think we need to increase the amount of asylum seekers we admit. we're taking only 20,000 asylum seekers, and that's not enough in terms of the extraordinary crisis. america, we have always been a generous nation, a nation that has cared about human rights. so i think we should do more, in terms of direct foreign aid and admitting people with a need. i think the way to do that is process these folks in those countries. >> one final question has to do with a separate topic. this is a bill you co-sponsored i think with a republican, and that's trying to get some clarity on an iran strike, that

the president would have to come to congress. any hope of getting that bill through, over to the senate? >> chuck, i think it is going to pass. i am responsible soring it with matt matt gates, one of the president's closest allies, and there are republicans that i think will support it. this country is wary of war. we don't need another war that costs trillions of dollars in the middle east. i believe the amendment will pass and it de-funds any activity in iran without congressional authorization. >> do you think it has any shot in the senate realistically? >> here is my view. i think the house will pass it, i don't think the senate will take it up. then it goes to conference. if we keep it in conference, mcconnell will have to force a vote, it is in the defense authorization bill. i think the best bet is to keep it in the conference. >> interesting. politics make strange bed fellows. working together on iran of all things. thanks very much, sir. appreciate you sharing your

views. >> thank you. up ahead, 2020 democrats are already in miami, warming up for the big debut on a bigger stage. we go live to the room it all happened. first democratic primary debate is in 24 hours from now. watch tomorrow and thursday here on msnbc, nbc, telemundo. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. when crabe stronger...strong, with new nicorette coated ice mint. layered with flavor... it's the first and only coated nicotine lozenge.

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your service online in just about a minute with a few simple steps. really? really. that was easy. yup. plus, with two-hour appointment windows, it's all on your schedule. awesome. now all you have to do is move...that thing. [ sigh ] introducing an easier way to move with xfinity. it's just another way we're working to make your life simple, easy, awesome. go to xfinity.com/moving to get started. welcome back to miami. we have a lot to talk about. let's bring in experts. doug thornell, and market caputo. dean of florida politics. senior writer here at politico. miami native. hello, sir. doug, i want to start with you. what we're witnessing with the

democratic party. nancy pelosi is saying no, not going to allow, you're upset about something, not going to allow the party to get wedged, give trump an out, somebody else to blame for what's happening at these camps that the kids are being held. but that's not going to be an easy thing to keep the party united around. doug? >> yeah, immigration is a tough issue for the party. i think we are united in terms of how these children are being treated down at the border. this border supplemental bill will likely pass. it has become much stronger in terms of including protections that hold the administration accountable, not spend it on trump's irresponsible policies. i think democrats, house democrats and senate democrats can really prosecute this immigration fight against the president. it has been an abject failure on his part. he ran on immigration and the

system is worse now than when he started. i think that it is important that the party get unified around some core messaging around immigration, but prosecute it against the president. >> doug, are they obligated to work with him on this now politically? we can talk about governing and all those things, politically do you think house democrats, look, if we give you minimum you need to be sure it is not cruel, but we're not negotiating on bigger things, asylum laws, on the larger questions about immigration, is that good politics for democrats for now or risky? >> i think they have to stand up to the president when it makes sense and work with him when they can. this is an example of i think the democrats being forceful with the bill that they're likely to pass tonight. we'll see what the senate does. there's not a lot of time. i don't think there's time for a

krch conference committee. hopefully they pass a bill that can go right to the president's desk. look, there are moments to work with the president, this is one where they have to stand up, express values on what's right and what's wrong. >> mark caputo, having homestead be one of the places the kids are sent, i had my own flashbacks, the camps when haitians were held there as they were coming over. this stuff plays how in south florida? >> south florida, understand all of florida, but especially south florida has a really dynamic base of immigrants. we're here in miami-dade county, more than half the population is born in another country. it doesn't play well when children, immigrant children, immigrants in general are being mistreated. that having been said, president trump shattered the conventional wisdom in florida by winning

florida after running on a hard line immigration policy. >> nobody thought that could work in a place like florida. >> right, it didn't. and then in 2018, his protege ron desantis ran on a hard line immigration position, saying we need to end sanctuary cities which aren't in florida. and won as well. the lesson internalized by the trump wing of the republican party, we should say the republican party is that running on a hard line immigration platform is not killer in a state like florida. >> you spent a lot of time with donald trump the last cycle, you'll be on the road with a lot of folks after this. he never wants to look soft on immigration, whatever he defines as soft, correct? >> yeah. i think that's right. i think you have to look at how adept he is at messaging on this issue in particular. look at the way he closed the 2016 campaign, the way he closed out the 2018 campaign.

it was all with fear mongering on immigration, whether in 2016 it was build the wall, in 2018 t the caravan. i am interesting in seeing if that's one of the closing messages here. i think generally that's the risk democrats run, trump is good at messaging on this. i was so struck in your interview with him where he's talking about why they're in the place they're in on the border crisis, he says we're doing a fantastic job given the circumstances that democrats aren't giving us money for funding. i think that's a trap. if i know trump supporters and hundreds and hundreds i talked to over the years, that's a line you could go to a trump rally and pick up soon. why do you think the situation on the border is so bad, i imagine they will echo that talking point right back to us. >> everything with him is deflect and blame somebody else. it is what he is going to do. speaking of the president, mark, you're going to play the role of defending all of journalism. >> great. >> the rape allegation against this president, there's been

this hand wringing from journalists, amazing how it is just feels as if it is treated with a shrug of the shoulder, collectively, the coverage, totality of coverage. you can claim it is like people already know who he is, whatever it is. what's your theory as to why this allegation doesn't have -- isn't getting the resonance you might expect? >> if you actually look at the circumstances in which the story was brought to light, there's a person making the allegation that's already written it, well known in the journalism community and can speak in her own voice. then the "new york" magazine picked it up, and they were unable to verify through some of the external sources or people she told contemporaneously on the record that it happened, and "new york times" tried to do the same thing. the "new york times" editor bashed his own placement of the story for essentially following the same template "new york

times" had followed in its pulitzer prize winning coverage of harvey weinstein. i think the difficulty is rape is a difficult thing to cover, especially rapes that happen or reported rapes or alleged rapes, i don't want to presume to know. >> it was a long time ago. >> so these are always going to be difficult things, and never underestimate the journalism community's ability to want to commit suicide and shoot itself as soon as possible and doubt what it did, and you're seeing that led by the editor. >> doug, as a political matter, there's one of these things, it is like she said herself, one of the reasons she didn't come out when others did, she thought it would get ignored, thought it would get sluffed off like every allegation has been, he has found a way to at least keep them from politically harming

him. what's your theory of the case as to why? >> why the story -- >> why these things never seem to stick to him. >> i think in part, people look at poll numbers among his supporters, they never seem to drop when the stories are reported on. some ways, they look at the poll numbers, they say see, the supporters, he hasn't lost support with the supporters, we may as well move on, they're still with him. to me, though, there are enough of the allegations, more than a dozen that came out during the election, you have the access hollywood tape with his own language, talking about assaulting women, this compelling story, stormy daniels. the behavior described about the president is nothing short of a sexual predator. that to me, it is shocking to me the republican party, republican senators in particular, you haven't heard anything from them on this.

nothing. of course they were more than willing to go after bill clinton. and they haven't said anything about him. that hypocrisy is pretty clear. >> very quickly, when these allegations bubbled up in '16, it was interesting. what's funny about this president is he is super sensitive to the allegations. he tries to fight every single one of them individually, doesn't he? >> yeah. i remember when he said he was going to sue the women coming out against him, and i looked back at some reporting in october, 2016, i vividly remember when donald trump was talking about the allegations against him at the time in october of 2016. and even then it was the same exact tactic. he mocked them for the way they looked. he has done that this time, saying she is not his type, i think that's the way -- these issues of manhood and the way he contends with these kinds of allegations i think do get at

him. it feels like we're on a carousel when he defends against them, he denies it, always goes after the women accusing him, and the silence of republicans in this, in 2016 at least they spoke out about the access hollywood tape, this one, silence is deafening. >> i have to say, i feel like i'm watching the same movie, except an even rougher one, right, mark caputo? someday republicans are going to regret not speaking out on the allegations. >> so far, you know, they have been winning, they're not regretting because they're in power. >> power apparently trumps all. up ahead, while the 2020 contenders are focusing on florida in the upcoming debate, pete buttigieg's make or break moment may be happening now in the state of indiana. ay be happn the state of indiana gists who developed it. (vo) align naturally helps to soothe your pe

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welcome back. we're in miami ahead of the two night debate extravaganza. we're not the only ones. many other candidates are here getting ready for the biggest event of the primary season. warren is holding a town hall next hour. she will be center stage on night one of the debate tomorrow, along with castro, inslee, and beto o'rourke. they all answered questions in the miami area today, can't tell you enough, first democratic debate is now a little more than

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welcome back. as pete buttigieg prepares to face nine 2020 rivals on the debate stage thursday, he is facing his first real controversy as a top tier presidential candidate. he is under fire from all sides. a white officer in his town shot and killed a black man. he stepped away from the campaign trail several times in the last week to deal with this, facing angry residents at a town hall this weekend.

now the south bend police union accuses him of using the shooting for political gain, releasing a statement that says mayor buttigieg's incident is solely for political gain, not to help the city he serves. mayor buttigieg has in no way unified the committee. he said he is managing the crisis, said he faced people, he didn't avoid it. we are finding out if he has what it takes to handle a moment like this. how is he doing? >> i think he is doing okay. this is the biggest test of his campaign. he is running on his executive

experience. now is the time to test it out. i give him credit for going back to south bend. we know politicians in the past who sometimes don't make that call, even as obvious as it may seem. he went back. he organized several town halls. i would like to see, in part what people want to see is the humanity out of mayor pete, he is a very cerebral candidate. but how does he connect with voters, how does he connect with african americans. can he show empathy, compassion. this is a major test. it is going to ultimately, if he makes it through it, he will have a chance at the nomination. if he fails, his candidacy will be troubled. >> i want to play this sound bite from a resident, jessie davis. not happy with the way he feels as if the mayor has infused the campaign and crisis together. take a listen. >> in the last few days, i

received two emails that were put out by the mayor's presidential campaign. and all they talk about was racism and they briefly touch base on the shooting in south bend, and our mayors never came out like that before about other incidents that were just as bad, similar instances. it appears to a lot of people i talked to that they feel as though he is pandering for the black vote, and using this for his political gain. >> i think he is now being accused from the left for using it for politics, from the right for using it for politics. he is in a proverbial no win situation in the moment because i think south bend is on a knife's edge. >> i think that really is true. and these things are inextricably linked. that voter is not wrong, he has to talk about these things in the context of being arguably one of the top five or six

candidates in the race. but i also think the situation highlights how different pete buttigieg's situation is from some of the other folks in the field. the role of a mayor innately in these communities, always struck when i talk to mayors across america, they're so directly responsive to constituents that the constituents know where to find them when a problem arises. i think in a situation like this, this is not a problem that can be tied up neatly with a bow. pete buttigieg has to find himself at the center of the community, speaking directly to constituents, offering that some of the things he tried to do, like diversify the police force, instituting more body cameras on police officers, those things haven't panned out. i think when you look at how effective he is, those are fair questions to ask in light of this event. the way he handled it, i don't know that he had any other choice. >> before there has been this question, is the country going to consider a mayor of a smaller city than south bend. i think now we're going to find

out if buttigieg has what it takes in about ten days. what does he look like after the crisis is over, does he have a city that healed. i think we'll know the state for good or for bad quickly. >> you will. and the problem he has is this is a shooting that's not in isolation. prior to this, there were reports, there was independent journalism, there was oppo research about mayor pete's black problem in south bend. now you have a shooting death of a black man by a police officer who at least in initial reports didn't have his body camera turned on. if the mayor wants credit for having body cameras instituted, why hasn't he spoken about that. >> the issue is also diversify the police force. my god, during ferguson, we as an organization, i put out maps of police forces that looked like their communities and police forces that didn't, and miami, new york, l.a. paid a

dear price for not having police forces that didn't look like their community. they figured it out. it is weird to me in that period he was mayor, he didn't focus on this. >> and don't forget, being in florida, sanford is where trayvon martin was killed. this is where black lives matter, this state, where it is born. >> doug, is there any scenario you would advice the mayor not to do the debate this week? >> yeah. i mean, if actions on the ground get out of control, he needs to go back home and take care of his number one priority which is south bend and the residents there. if things seem to be under control, i think he can go do the debate. i agree with the points you mentioned about diversity of the police force. south bend i believe is over 20% african-american, and the police force is 5%. so definitely doesn't look like the community. and i think mayor pete has to

address some of those issues. look, i don't know if you can blame him for the body camera not activating, that's on the cop. but some of the fundamental in here -- inheernrent things, he has answer. >> the body camera isn't on, you keep hearing that, they shouldn't be able to turn it off. all up ahead. what do candidates behind the lecterns need to think about when it comes to tomorrow. i ask someone who knows quite well. former vermont governor, presidential candidate, dnc chair. he was an insider, outsider, insider, you name it. he played all of the roles of a candidate. howard dean is next. candidate. howard dean is next. (gasp) (singsong) budget meeting! sweet. if you compare last quarter to this quarter... various: mmm. it's no wonder everything seems a little better with the creamy taste of philly, made with fresh milk and real cream.

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tonight i am obsessed, who is running things at the pentagon. it is the largest office building on the planet, with nearly 3 million people on the payroll, the largest employer on earth. with those kind of numbers and those kinds of stakes, the defense department needs consistent, steady leadership. which is were i was perturbed when i saw this statistic. since robert gates stepped down july, 2011, the pentagon will have had seven secretaries of defense in one capacity or another in roughly as many years. you have that right, seven in

seven years. gates held it four and a half years under the bush and administration administration, end of one, beginning of another. since then, everyone a year or less. the current acting secretary on the yob two job two days. president obama had four defense secretaries. president trump is about to be on his third in one term. that's unreal. assuming that the former secretary of the army, mark gasper is confirmed. we know those processes don't go very well. the "associated press" has it right. this is indeed "a perilous time to have temps running the pentagon for as long as they've been doing it." we've be had seven defense secretaries in seven years and about to be on our third in less than two months. imagine apple with seven ceos in seven years. america with seven presidents in seven years. imagine nel managerial job in america where there wouldn't be major setbacks. remember we're talking about the pentagon. member we're talking ae

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welcome back. we are just about 27 hours away from the first debate of the 2020 democratic primary season. you only get one chance to make a first impression. that's just what the first debate will be for several candidates. joining me is someone who knows about presidential debates, former vermont governor howard dean. if he was on a stage as a an presidential cycle and oversaw the entire process as dnc charnl

four years later. good to see you. i've had a theory about this first debate which is simply, and i want you to help us what's going on in the minds of the candidates. those that are expecting fireworks i'm thinking not from the front-runners. they know there's going to be nine more, ten more debates. what is going on inside the head of the front-runners right now? >> nobody can know, but i can guess. the idea in the front-runners is don't say anything that's going to get you in trouble. have you nice leads. you're in the top tier. you got to be substantive and you've got to be genuine but you don't want to be controversial. >> you also though, what makes this debate different is how many nontop tier candidates there are, and some of them this is their last shot. right? we know there are other candidates actively trying to qualify for the next debate. one or two may not -- that are get to do this tomorrow and

thursday may not ever get on a debate stage again. what's going through their mind? >> they have to stand out in some way and the advice that i have given publicly since i'm neutral and not advising anybody in particular, don't give long policy speeches. that's not going to help you. give us something specific you care about it and do it more than once. you only get seven minutes out of the hour and a half. and secondly, if you attack the front-runner your numbers will go up a little bit and your negatives go up a lot. you can't do it that way. >> you're saying just bashing biden isn't the best -- that isn't what you would be telling eric swalwell to do. have a point in what you're doing. >> actually bashing anybody. i don't mean the front-runner biden. the front-runners, top tier candidates. this is a democratic party whose major two-thirds of the democrats want somebody who can

be beat trump and willing to sacrifice anything else in order to get somebody who can beat trump. you won't get points for calling them out by name. you'll get in trouble. ironically, this is funny because you wouldn't work on the democratic side. the middle east memorable debate on the republican side over the last few years is 999. herman cain went to the top of the primary pac after that debate. he obviously didn't win the nomination. i wouldn't remember that, but something like that. >> i'm curious, do you see parallels in your primary in '04 versus what we're seeing now? i say it this way. you know, you were the insurgent. you were the outsider going you got to take it to bush. you got to go at him. you had others in the establishment going no, no, no, you need somebody with the proper resume, john kerry has the proper resume. do you see something here between biden and say the

insurgents in this field? >> only a little bit. don't forget, in my -- my surge as insurgent came at the end of june in 2003 after we had outraise rad john kerry, the favorite. i actually didn't get on the debate stage till i was the favorite which was completely -- i was by far the most experienced serious candidate who was running. so for me, it was very, very different situation. i made a fair number of mistakes which is why i give the advice i do now. but yes, i do think that there's always this wish among democratic voters, do we get the most electable person, or do we get the person we really love. i think you've got to temper that with both in your -- look, i think the voters are usually right. i'm pretty optimistic about our chances. i don't know if they'll pick joe biden or somebody else or even somebody i think -- i expect two or three people to come out of the pack in the next two nights

we haven't thought about yet. >> i think you're right. people are still shopping and following test drive a lot of cars even if they end up with the same sedan they bought three cars in a row. >> that's true. >> i am curious, what's your advice to biden? >> don't make, try not to make any mistakes no, gaffes. stay on message and say something substantive. >> does he need to do a little bit of risk and show something he hasn't shown yet, or do you think he's got to stay being who he -- there's some people who say you got to reach out to this group or that group. and there's going to be others that tell him look, your whole candidacy is based on the premise of people want a time-out. so play into the time-out. >> without responding exactly to that, let me say what i've been saying for a long time. if we are talking four months before the election after we have a nominee about donald trump, we lose. trump, let trump talk about trump. i hope these things are not just about bashing trump. we have to have a message that

talks about health care, economic inequality, education. trump will remind us why we don't like him every day. we need not pile on or we'll lose. >> governor howard dean, thanks for sharing your views and your wisdom with the rest of the field. we'll be back tomorrow with more "meet the press" dale flip good evening, ari. >> thank you so much. we have a lot to get to tonight. we're on the eve of this first democratic debate. one of the issues is obviously a rolling crisis at the border. one of trump's top border officials saying he'll step down today. amid the furor over the treatment of children in detention. democrats moving it much closer publicly saying they have a road to subpoenaing bob mueller. rob reiner is here later in the hour and this is interesting. a former fox news reporter blasting his old network and trump is here live tonight ooh, as well. the top story, the ongoing chaos and crisis at the border. donald trump's acting borde