>> former florida governor jeb bush. >> wow. >> let's hope tonight's ten candidates have an easier time finding the stage than the seven republicans did in 2016. remember that. awkward. good morning. and welcome to "morning joe" wednesday june 26th. debate night. this is the big night, along with joe, willie and me, we have political reporter for the "new york times" and political analyst, nick confasori. the host of saturday night politics on msnbc donny deutsch is with us and washington bureau chief of "usa today" and author of the matriarch, susan page. >> do you think there's any change that we can maybe draft

ben carson to do these democratic debates just because he was so fascinating to watch, even getting out on to the stage was always an adventure. >> we didn't have time to show the full beauty of that moment. his name had been called several times prior. he was greeting people as he went out to the stage. hopefully they will be more organized down in miami tonight. >> let's hope so. >> so three weeks from today, this is the big news and we'll get to the debate and preview what's happening. former special counsel robert mueller is scheduled to testify on his report before lawmakers on capitol hill. congressman adam schiff and jerry nadler, the chairs of the house intelligence and judiciary committees subpoenaed mueller's testimony for back-to-back hearings on july 17th. mueller will appear in open sessions before both panels and later his staff will answer questions in a closed hearing. all this despite mueller's

insistence that he has nothing more to say which chairman schiff reacted to last night. >> the report is my testimony. i would not provide information beyond that which is already public in any appearance before congress. >> what they have represented to us is that they view themselves as prosecutors and prosecutors don't normally talk outside of the trial or indictment, but let's face it, this is not a traditional prosecutorial case, and what's more, bill barr has felt more than free as the attorney general to speak well beyond the mueller report, and if he is able to speak beyond the four corners of the mueller report so too should bob mueller feel free to do so. >> you know, also, he's not run of the mill prosecutor here, and he didn't act as a prosecutor in that report because from the very beginning he said i can't do the main job of a prosecutor.

i can't tell you if donald trump is guilty of crimes. so it's not like he was going to make a decision to indict or not indict. we're in a middle ground here, and he needs to go to the hill. and he needs to talk about his report. and he needs to explain some of those conclusions. >> president trump's lawyer, rudy giuliani responded stating i think his testimony is going to be just like his press conference, totally useless, with him repeating i can't make up my mind. >> donny deutsch, again, it is hard to believe this man ever ran a city like new york let alone the fact that people like myself consider him to be a very effe effective mayor. it's just a cynical, cynical, stupid thing for rudy giuliani to say. when robert mueller said at the top of the report and the justice department guidelines made him say at the top of the

report that he couldn't -- he could not say that the president should be indicted. he could not draw that conclusion, and here you have the president's lawyers just being stupid, just lying. i'm sure there are a lot of stupid people that will pick that up and will tweet it. but it is totally separated from the fact, it doesn't change the facts at all, and again, just more embarrassment for rudy giuliani. >> joe, you know, you said i've lived through rudy giuliani as mayor, his very strong job at 9/11, and just watch him degenerate into this pathetic circus figure, stupid, lying, grotesque in every way, sold his soul. >> that's a great way to describe it. rudy giuliani a prosecutor who worked for the justice department, who knew that robert mueller was a guy, by the way, he used to vouch for robert mueller as did a lot of other

people, but knew that he could not reach a conclusion. for him to then turn around and use the fact that he followed the law, followed the constitution, to use that against him is grotesque, but go ahead, sorry to interrupt. >> and what people will do at a certain age to just be in the spotlight is sad. it's actually, he's pathetic, he's taken on a pathetic tone. the one thing i will say moving off this critter giuliani and i want to give everybody a heads up not to be too disappointed, joe, i agree with where you were last week though mueller is a war hero, and dedicated his life to service, there was this weird place he's occupied like i'm above it. we need to hear him. i don't think anything is dramatically going to change. we will see a face to it. we will hear words but all along we have been waiting for mueller and the mueller report and this investigation to be a silver bullet, to be a defining moment,

and it won't. hopefully it will be one piece of what we have talked about and i have talked about overall ongoing criminal investigations but i want to warn people to not again have this post mueller depression. when he gets up there, we hear the things we know he's going to say. once again, it will be recorded for history but i do not think it is going to dramatically change where we are. >> except if he just reads the report, the report itself is devastating. ten examples of obstruction of justice and if you read the russian portion of the report. >> but joe, don't we know that? at this point, don't americans know that whether they want to accept it or not? >> no. the overwhelming number of americans had their view of the mueller report framed by one of the most intellectually dishonest public displays i have ever seen in my life and that was of attorney general barr trying to frame it as

aggressively as he could as donald trump's roy cohn. look through it. most americans haven't read this report. most americans will see robert mueller testify, and it will be the first time for, i would say over 50% of americans that they actually know what's in the report. now, this is going to depend on the democrats actually doing something that they don't usually do. they need to coordinate their message. they need to coordinate their questions. they need to coordinate their themes to make sure americans get as much of the mueller report that day as possible. >> there is real power in just hearing the voice of robert mueller, the man who spent two years working on this case. remember when he came out and read his statement for eight minutes or so, there was power in that, and nick, he will be asked direct questions about obstruction of justice because that was the part of the report volume two that he left open to congress, he said i couldn't reach a conclusion one way or

another, but here are 10 or 12 moments that it could be interpreted. he will be asked, is that obstruction of justice. will he say my report speaks for itself. he's going to have to answer questions at some point. >> no one knows what's going to happen here or how it's going to play out. it's probably the most anticipated moment in a hearing in years and years, and, you know, the vast majority of americans have not read this report. they have seen the headlines, and the report is long, it's written in legalese in some ways. it's not a criticism. it's very carefully written. there can be a great effect for democrats for people who care about this if he simply is asked to zero in on key questions and frame them in the way they are framed in the report, just not the surrounding part rs of the report, all the hundreds of pages that are in there.

it's -- parts of the report, all the hundreds of pages that are in there. they can watch the testimony, for democrats it's the last chance to reframe the question of impeachment, to reframe how the public saw the results of the investigation and drive forward on them. >> and mika, that's true. it's not just for the american public, people watching and hearing it in mueller's own words, it's democrats in the house. some sitting on the fence for the question of impeachment, could robert mueller say something directly that knocks them off the fence toward impeachment. >> to donny's point because i think donny made a good point about waiting for muler aeller post mueller depression. we don't need to wait with baited breath to find out that this president is corrupt. this is a president who has said on national television that he's willing to sell out our country for foreign dirt on an o poenpp.

this is a president who said he was willing to commit rape if a woman was his type. that was a defense to a woman who apparently was not his type. we already know he was corrupt. he considers crimes to be something that he doesn't get touched by the law, he has a right to things that others don't. and i think what this report will show is the depth, susan page, of his corruption. we'll learn a little bit more, and americans should want to learn what happened in the run up to the election. and perhaps it will help oversight grapple with how to deal with the concept of impeachment when they have complicit republicans willing to stand up for a man who is flip about rape and sells out our country. that's the part that nobody's prepared for, these republicans. >> you know, one key question about mueller's testimony coming up on july 17th is does this change the dynamic around impeachment pause we do see the -- because we do see the numbers of democrats from the house supporting impeachment ticking up into the 70s but the

standard that the speaker nancy pelosi has set, and it's up to her more than any other individual whether impeachment proceedings begin is a different one. it would require americans, the public to take a different and more aggressive attitude, to be more energized by the conclusions of the mueller report than they have been so far, and for that to cause republicans, especially republicans in the senate to be open to the idea of impeachment, and you know, one thing about mueller's testimony is the clock is teching whicking when it com impeachment. there will be a point in the 2020 campaign that impeachment becomes less and less likely just because of that impending election. >> could i jump in one more time on this. it's interesting, we keep saying people have not read the mueller report, and most people have not read a 488 page report. having said that, there were four or five or six different things, basically as far as mcgahn. if you're a news listener, if

you have watched television, you have picked up the four or five or six bites, is the american public so stupid and i don't think they are that they have to hear the words. i think for me the people that wanted to hear it heard it, and the people that don't want to hear it didn't hear it and i don't think whether it's audio or in words it changes. we all have our ears. people are busy. i mean, people are busy going to work. >> this is 24/7. >> people are busy raising their kids, not all americans, i know this is shocking, sit and watch morning joe for three hours a day. >> what, wait. >> not all americans wax their body and work out for two hours with their personal trainer! you left out the hdh, first i take that. >> then they don't do the hdh shakes and then go to a three-hour, four martini lunch. most people don't live your life, donny. most people are not going to

read a 450 page. >> it's five sound bites. there were six or seven instances of obstruction when it came to don mcgahn. my point is i think somewhere -- >> you have made your .12 points. >> and you rebuffed my .12 times. >> that should end it then. >> you like to say you're buff. you should probably take that as a queue to move along cow biboy. it's interesting that donny deutsch could be so wrong. >> i knew that was coming. >> yeah, he wrote a book called "often wrong never in doubt" alex reminds me, but you know, there is a reason why donald trump fears robert mueller in front of the tv cameras with the nation's attention turned to him more than anything else. how many people watched, i mean,

god, 40, 50 million people on and off have seen system like this before. i remember back in, i think it was '87, the country in the middle of the summer stopped dead in its tracks and watched lieutenant colonel oliver north testify for several days. just stopped. robert mueller, this will be, i got to believe some of the most compelling testimony that will stop tens of millions of americans in their tracks and they will for the first time understand the content of the mueller report. that is why donald trump is so scared of him having this moment in the sun. >> well, everybody else we have heard from, joe, has been a supporting character in this story. it's been michael cohen. his testimony was interesting to the story but robert mueller is the lead character. he's the star of this story. the man who has been immersed in

these witnesses, immersed in this evidence for more than two years, who understands the story better than anyone else in the country and can explain it perhaps better than anyone else in the country, and not from a partisan point of view but from a factual point of view and i think that is the power is that he is viewed as apolitical in this, a man without an agenda, a man who is respected by republicans and democrats alike, despite what the president of the united states says so to hear it from his mouth may change some hearts and minds, again, i think my question is will he answer direct questions or will he stand by what he said which is the report is my testimony. anything that comes outside the outlines of that 450 page report, i'm just not going to answer those questions. it's up to you, congress, to answer those questions and that's what he's said in the past. >> yeah, but mika, the only thing i will say there is it is his responsibility as a public servant to explain some of his reasoning and some of his

conclusions to lay people across america whose tax dollars paid for him to work on this very important project over the course of a couple of years. so just saying i'm too good to answer these questions or i'm going to be stubborn, no, no, he has a responsibility to explain to the american people, to laymen across america who may not have gone to princeton, who may not have gone to university of virginia law school, exactly why, what he found. >> so joe, i think you're right, and i think he can do that, and i think what trump -- but i don't think it will be staggering, most people know that trump is corrupt and criminal like in his behavior and thinking, he has told us that, the president himself, but what bob mueller, what's so frightening about him for trump is that he will visually represent good versus evil.

he will visually send that branding out to america over the course of two days, and that scarce trump more than the truth. the truth's already out. it's come out of trump's mouth. he is corrupt. still ahead on "morning joe" there have several big developments on the immigration front, from a shake up in leadership to a devastating image of those suffering along the southern border. we'll run through it all. we'll get a check on the children being denied their most basic needs. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. "morning jo" we'll be right back. when did you see the sign?

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amid outrage over living conditions at a border patrol facility in clint, texas, there is new reporting that about 100 migrant children have been moved back into the facility. the transfer came just days after about 300 children originally housed at the border station were moved to other facilities to relieve overcrowding.

lawyers who visited the site last week reported that children weren't being given adequate food or water and described unsanitary conditions including outbreaks of the flu and lice. in an interview with msnbc this week, texas gop congressman michael burnett suggested that children aren't leaving the border patrol facilities because they are well taken care of. >> yes, it's a restored walmart. you know what, there's not a lock on the door. any child is free to leave at any time, but they don't. and you know why, because they're well taken care of. >> he's talking about two-year-old toddlers who are going around without diapers. what exactly are they supposed to do. are they supposed to give them their baby uber app and decide to go to dallas and hang out there. nbc news reporting that the customs and border patrol said the agency was not running low

on supplies. it was not running low on supplies. they just chose not to give those children soap. >> that's in response to reports that people who were looking to make donations were being turned away. >> are you concerned about the conditions at these border facilities. >> yes, i am. i'm very concerned, and they're much better than they were under president obama by far, and we're trying to get the democrats to agree to really give us some humanitarian aid, humanitarian money. >> everything you just heard was of course, this will shock you, false. now, listen, i had a lot of people write on my time line that it was just as bad under barack obama because it's funny how this works, donald trump tells a lie and his followers blindly repeat that light like they're in a cult. a good way to find out what the truth is, you can actually go

online. i joke about the google machine but you can find out because i did it yesterday, in three minutes. from multiple news sources, including conservative news sources, that that's a lie. that under barack obama, children were detained only if they came alone or if they thought the children were being abused and barack obama's administration's goal was to release them as quickly as possible. politifact did some time ago what i did yesterday, and they wrote this, the obama administration did not have a policy to separate families arriving illegally at the border. did you hear me? did you hear me? that is a fact. there was no child separation policy during the obama administration.

and in fact, family separations rarely happened under the obama administration which sought to keep families together while in detention. then, based on a court decision, it released families together out of detention. now, when children were feared to be abused or when they came alone, they put them in facilities until they could figure out how to release them as quick as possible. yes, you can snap a photo in time and see children in these detention facilities but their goal was to never get them in those facilities and their goal, their stated goal was to get them out of those facilities as quickly as possible. now, i know for some of you, you can't remember exactly what happened last week, let alone last year or the year before that, you just want to listen to what donald trump tweets and you will re-tweet it mindlessly. >> yeah. >> and i don't say this out of

anger or frustration. i'm just saying it because i'm telling you the fact, and that is your fact, that is your life, but if you will just dig a little bit deeper. >> right. >> if you will use the education that your parents worked hard to pay for you to use it or if you'll just go to the google machine next door at your neighbor, they're waiting, knock, ask to use their google machine, what you will find in 60 seconds of searching, you will find conservative news outlets, liberal news outlets, every news outlet telling you that the trump administration, on the other hand, made it their deliberate policy, made it their deliberate policy, stay with me, stay come here, come here, they made it their deliberate policy to separate children from families, and listen, listen. if you don't want to walk next door to google this, we have

done your work for you this morning. watch this. >> i have put in place a zero tolerance policy for illegal entry on our southwest border. if you are smuggling a child then we will prosecute you. and that child may be separated from you as required by law. >> and willie geist also you had john kelly saying that they would separate children from their parents. >> as a deterrent. >> and they would do so as a deterrent. they would tear babies from mother's arms, this is what was said with cameras rolling that they would separate children from their parents. they would rip babies from their mother's arms, quote as a deterrent. >> yeah, that's the key right there is that they called it a deterrent, and jeff sessions said that time and again, which tells you that it is a strategy, that they believe by appearing tough on the border and again, i

hesitate even to say that because if your idea is being tough is letting babies go around in diapers or as the congressman said to chris hayes, the door is open, the 2-year-olds are free to leave at any time. i don't know what world of toughness you live in. deterrence was a strategy, a goal, and they believe the best way to do it was to scare people with images look the ones we have seen, and stories like the ones we have heard yesterday from even attempting to come to the border with mexico. >> willie, here's the rub. not only did it not work, it actually encouraged more people to come. we have said it time and again. this is what i want trump supporters who think that donald trump is actually doing a good job at the border to understand that barack obama's more humane approach actually led illegal crossings to a 50-year low. donald trump came in and when he

started to talk about building walls and shutting down the border at a time again when illegal crossings were at a 50-year low, that played right into smugglers hands, who would tell scared people in central america, hey, they're about to close the border, i need to rush you and your family, your children and grandparents, everybody up right now because they're shutting it down. that's why there's been a rush over the past two years, and that's why border crossings are at a higher rate now under donald trump than they ever were under barack obama, and by the way, this deterrence has done nothing but torture children. >> yeah. >> it's tortured children, and it's not working as you point out, again last month they set a record for arrests at the border of migrants. by the way, during the 2016 campaign president trump promised to prioritize the removal of quote bad hombres for deportation but the new yorker reports that trump's chaotic

immigration policy of rushing and cancelling raids against families has some i.c.e. officers longing for the order of the obama years. president obama was never popular among the rank and file at i.c.e., but the detailed list of enforcement priorities he instituted in 2014, which many in the agency initially resented as micro management now seem more sensible. one i.c.e. officer said one person told me i never thought i'd say this but i miss the obama rules. we removed more people with the rules we had in place than with all of this. it was much easier when we had the priorities, it was cleaner, since the creation of i.c.e. in 2003, enforcement was premised on the idea that officers primarily would go after criminals for deportation. president trump who views i.c.e. as a tool to showcase toughness has abandoned that framework entirely. quote, i don't even know what we're doing now one officer said. a lot of us see the photos of the kids at the border and we're wondering what the hell is going

on, mika. >> a couple of things here, and then i want to go to susan page. first of all, we showed jeff sessions announcing this policy. we know john kelly did as well. it is clear this is a trump policy. you cannot put this back on obama in any way. the facts are there. you have to look at melania, and ivanka. melania went to the border to check on the children when the separations first came out. ivanka went publicly, her brand is women and children. she has taken that off her brand, she said this was a low point for her, the situation with the separations, so what do you think this is, when you have children in squalor with the flu spreading rampantly around them, with children in danger on your watch. >> lies. >> so for melania and ivanka, this is not being best, this is not a good look and history will show, you will go down in history as having done nothing about this.

i hope that you can live with that. susan page, the i.c.e. agents, the folks on the ground who are trying to deal with this, and who are confused by the policy, confused, i think, morally, about what it is they are being asked to do and the images they are seeing. talk about how, you know, this is where the institutions i worry falter a little bit in a situation like this because institutions are made of people and policies need to be clear and based on moral groundings. >> and you know, the president had actually announced a big ice raid planned for mass deportations and it was after nancy pelosi called him and had a 12-minute conversation that he agreed to put it off. you know, we've talked earlier in the hour about the potential power of robert mueller testifying before congress. if you want to talk about the potential power of an image, think about the picture that the associated press released yesterday that showed a man crossing the rio grande drowning

his 23-month-old daughter, who drowned with his arm around his neck, clinging to the last moments, that is the kind of photo that has the potential to affect and inflame this debate, and to affect even the views of the president. you know, we have seen the president be pretty responsive sometimes to a picture, to the pictures from syria of children who had been killed by chemical weapon attacks, i wonder if this has the potential, either for personal reasons or political ones to make the administration change course to at least some degree. >> well, you know, the administration did change course over the past few days in a few respects, one, they moved the children out. they fired the acting head of border control. they moved 100 children back

into those facilities, i only hope lawyers can follow up to make sure that it is more sanitary this time. but nick, they cancelled the i.c.e. raids this past weekend. there has been some movement, and we should be grateful for that. nick, this image that the associated press published yesterday, let's put it on the screen and show people, this is the direct result of policy of the united states of america. this is a direct result of donald trump's zero tolerance policy, which sounds tough, but which i.c.e. agents themselves are saying making them doubt what they are doing as law enforcement officers trying to keep our borders secure because nick this is the result of that

policy and i repeat again, and if you don't believe me trump supporters, you can just look at the trump administration's own statistics as i.c.e. agents said, nick, under barack obama's more humane policy, where this was more managed and this was more controlled and people weren't dying like this on the border, you actually had the fewest illegal crossings in 50 years, in half a century, now as i.c.e. agents say there is nothing but chaos and suffering on the border and it's all because of donald trump's policies. >> well, joe, that picture, it's very hard to look at. it's the most profoundly disturbing pictures i have seen from the entire crisis. it tears at the heart, according to the associated press, the man swam across the rio grande, he took that risk because he wasn't being allowed to present his

claim for asylum, which is his right under u.s. law and international law, so yes, it is a consequence of a policy decision from the trump administration to prevent people from claiming asylum. look, it actually matters what's said at the top in policy, and policy making. but the president has talked about for two years now is to describe his people trying to come here as criminals and mooches and people who are up to no good and that's going to filter down to the people who are working on the front lines and it's going to affect the priorities and the decisions made on the ground. it's also important to note that what's happening here is a consequence of things that are happening in el salvador and costa rica and guatemala, if you look at that terrible picture of that dead man and his daughter who drowned trying to get here, it underscores how bad things are for them and their family and friends back at home, and why they are taking the risk to

get here. and we're probably not going to see a big change in the crisis at our border if we can't find some way to help there be a solution back home in central america that will make conditions there possible or folks to actually stay. they're coming here because even having their kids in those centers and taking the risk of drowning is a better fate than what's behind them. >> well, and willie, as nick pointed out, this man wanted to present himself and his daughter for asylum. he has that right under american law. for those people that would say, oh, well, he shouldn't have been trying to come here illegally anyway, no, presenting yourself for asylum is legal. and it has been legal. it's what ronald reagan talked about in his farewell address to america that that's what represent america vibrant. and that's what also made us the last best hope for a dying

world. donald trump has even extinguished that flame, the result of that where they can't even present themselves for asylum is what we see in that picture. >> yeah, there's a policy called metering where the number of migrants allowed to come in has decreased by a lot under the trump administration and migrants know that. they know that it's probably a better way to get into this country by crossing the rio grande than by waiting in that line, a line that you may never get to the front of. and i would ask as you look at that picture, i would ask the president of the united states as a human being, his family as human beings, is the man lying in that picture with his 23-month-old daughter wrapped in his shirt is he a bad hombre or is he leaving el salvador because he wanted a better life in the united states of america. is that man right there a bad hombre lying with his father

face down in the rio grande. >> i can't remember being affected by a picture as much as this as a dad, somebody you talk about this, we use the word immigrants and central americans and mexicans and i think it's sad to say so many people in this country almost feel them as different and if you see that as different, you can't picture yourself as a dad and your child jumping in after you and your arm raised around you, you're not human, and this image has to stay. i do believe this is an image that will stay and should stay, and if you can't, i don't care if you're a racist, if you can't feel that, and know, imagine the back story that went into that, and not be affected by that, you're not a human. and donald trump, if you can't feel that, see that, understand that as a man who has children, then you just don't deserve to be leading this country. >> and if you read the report of

witnesses and the story of how this happened, the man had his wife on one side and his child on the other, and he -- they were drowning and he brought his child and put her on the shore and told her to stay there and then he set back to get his wife and then the jump, the daughter felt so nervous away from him, she jumped into the water again, and he tried to save her and they both died. i mean, the desperation this family was enduring before they died, i mean, just members of the administration, this is such a disgrace. this is such a shame and such a dark time that this is where we are. this picture really symbolizes where we are right now. >> i remember after katrina, i remember friends from my church and pensacola, first baptist church and friends from across

pensacola, and i remember evangelicals across america sending money to us. we would go over and when we went over to mississippi and louisiana, i was moved by the number of evangelical organizations, catholic organizations, jewish organizations, religious organizations that were coming together and doing what the government was not doing at that time. it was extraordinarily moving and as somebody that was raised in the baptist church, it was something i was very proud of. it gave me great pride of all the bad things that were said about my church about being an evangelical christian that in this time of trouble, it was people from my church, people who worshipped like i worshipped who along with other faiths were on the front lines to follow what jesus had demanded of us in

matthew 25. to feed the hungry, to cloth the naked, to give a cup of water to the thirsty, to bring hope to the hopeless, i see these images and then i hear some of those same people saying well not my problem. they're coming here illegally. and it's shocking and these are people that perhaps they've never read about the good samaritan in bible study or perhaps they've never read luke 17:2 where jesus talks about if you do a child harm it's better than a mill stone be wrapped around your neck and you be thrown to the bottom of the ocean or when jesus talked about when people were pushing children away because they were beneath jesus. jesus had let the little children come, and i'm not, listen, i'm not here saying let the little children and their extended families come to

america illegally. i have always said we are a nation of laws. and the first thing you should do when you come to america is should not be illegal. but if we now are closing the gates to this country for even those seeking asylum, and then callously saying that because their skin is brown that they mean less to jesus, they mean less to god than white kids, that is a perverted and twisted faith that has absolutely no connection, no connection to what jesus taught in the gospels. it reminds me, yesterday, russell moore, thank god for russell moore, with the southern baptist church talked about the importance of us focussing on these children and was attacked by jerry fallwell, jr.

jerry fallwell said that, first of all, russell said the reports of the conditions for migrant children at the borders should shock all of our consciousness, those created in the image of god should be treated with a dignity and compassion especially those seeking refuge from the violence back home. we can do better than this. russell lifted that directly from matthew 25, he lifted it directly from the story of the good samaritan to which jerry falwell jr. shamefully wrote, who are you dr. moore, have you ever made a payroll. >> what the heck is he talking about. >> have you ever built an organization from any type of scratch, what gives you authority to speak on any issue?

>> whoa. >> that is so -- i mean, i don't have to even say this, that is the antithesis of what jesus taught. this is straight out of jim and tammy faye baker and the ptl club in the 1970s and 80s who had regularly built, my grandma of money once a month. >> yep. >> if you want to know what's wrong with evangelical leaders in the age of trump, do nothing more than read jerry falwell jr.'s texas and look at the picture of that young girl, desperately clinging to her father in her final moments of life. we'll be right back. life we'll be right back. my insurance rates are probably gonna double.

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joining us now, director of domestic policy studies at stanford university, and research fellow at the hoover institution, lonnie chen, and welcome, we want to get into some of the opinion pages and this latest opinion police for politico entitled dear democrat, here's how to guarantee trump's reelection. charl charlie writes, despite early polling numbers trump could still win reelection because he has won essential dynamic working in his favor, you. trump's numbers are unmovable, but yours are not. he doesn't need to win this thing. he needs for you to lose it. there are millions of swing voters who regard trump as an abomination, but might vote for him again if they think you are

scarier, more extreme, dangerous or just annoyingly out of touch. this week's debates give you two more chances to form circular firing squads, turn winning issues into losers and alienate swing voters. he goes on to list 11 ways he sees democrats potentially imploding on their 2020 chances, including promising free stuff with no plans to pay for it. abolishing private health insurance, continuing to talk about reparations, immigration, alexandria ocasio-cortez, socialism, gun rights, abortion, and i'll also bring in the economy, which right at this moment doesn't necessarily hurt trump's chances. the economy is important to people, how they feel they are doing right now. >> well, i think that's actually right, mika, and i agree, i think charlie outlined some of the challenges for democrats here because the temptation in these debates is to go into

attack mode. the temptation is to go out there and draw contrast. remember, you're talking about a very narrow space here that these candidates are competing within, and so there is going to be this tendency to say look, here are the differentiations, here's a reason why i might be a better fit for the progressive base. that could drive them to the left as opposed to focussing on president trump where they by and large agree. the dynamic is going to be different. i think tonight's debate doesn't have a clear front runner, you might see a little bit more contrast with president trump. tomorrow night when you've got vice president bide skpnn and a number of other people, bernie sanders and others who are higher in the polls, there might be a little bit more of a take on one another kind of dynamic. we'll have to see what happens, and i think charlie's observations are absolutely right. >> you're advising these democrat candidates going into the debates, the first one tonight on msnbc, telemundo, what's your approach tonight, let's say elizabeth warren who

has the highest polling of anybody on that stage, and tomorrow night if you're anybody coming after joe biden, what should these guys and women be thinking. >> i think for everybody, you go after trump. after biden is going to be fools gold. i had a theory a couple of weeks ago, people want biden so badly because they see him as the best chance of beating trump, they're going to let things slide off him. the segregation issue slid off him. the tremendous advantage biden has is the same advantage trump had, they wanted trump so badly, those people, because they wanted to make america white again or make america great again, whatever that meant, they were willing to overlook so many things. i think biden has that and any democratic candidate is going to make a terrible mistake, punching up at biden, punching up at trump. >> and also, if he isn't on the stage, biden wouldn't be there. it's going to be weird to be punching up at him. for most people on the stage, this is going to be their 30 seconds, and i'll tell you, it

is going to blow by. people are going to have so little time, it sounds strange to say, it's going to blow by so fast, i think if you're one of those people who are lower down, it's all about like here i am, here's who i am, hear my ideas, it's going to be like a 30 or 45 second sound bite. for warren it's a chance to be like, hey, i'm the alternative to biden. i'm the non-bernie sanders alternative to biden. here are my ideas. for her it's a chance to stand above the pack on the stage and competing for sanders voters on the second night. >> columnist dana millbank has a new piece in the "new york times" saying trump demands subservience and gets incompetence. can't anyone play this game, the trump administration is undergoing one of its frequent paradoxisms of incompetentism.

trump's determination to run the country like the apprentice, the common thread to the mayhem and bungling is trump's insistence on staffing its government with officials serving in temporary, acting roles at the pleasure of the president and without the stature or protection of senate confirmation. this allows trump to demand absolute subservience from appointees because he can replace them at will. they don't contradict him but that tentative status means they lack authority within their agencies, and the stature to stand up to trump when he is wrong. now trump's actings are causing babies to go hungry and they may soon bumble us into war with iran, but that's okay because trump likes the flexibility. that's from dana milbank in the "washington post." the thing i'm seeing with trump is his lies and his ability to sort of brand the truth and to

maybe brand over it with a lie, you know, happening even by blaming obama for what this administration is doing to children at the border, to babies at the border. to human beings, and he is treating americans like he's treating this administration. what he says goes, what he says is the truth, and the fear here is that the recepress and the pe who care about the truth are able to be heard through all the noise and bluster he makes. >> well, loyalty can be a very dangerous thing and i think the challenge with loyalty is what is that loyalty to. each of these executive officers takes an oath not to be loyal to the president of the united states, necessarily, but to be loyal to the constitution and to be loyal to the institutions that they are serving within, and so i think that the challenge really is when one demands absolute loyalty, above potentially loyalty to other

important factors, it does become a challenge, it becomes beyond a challenge in some cases a dangerous situation. so you know, i think a lot of people serving in the administration are going to have to ask themselves a critical question at some juncture, and that juncture may be now, which is what is their loyalty to. whom are they serving and what are the values they serve, and i would hope that all could dig down and answer that question appropriately. look, i'm here to serve the president, and others will say, look, i'm here to serve the country. >> that's the difference right there. coming up, more than 70 democrats and one republican have called for an impeachment inquiry into the president, and next month, they might just get their block buster testimony that they have been looking for. former special counsel robert mueller has agreed to appear before congress. so far the white house is shrugging it off. plus, much more on the first democratic debate, which gets underway tonight. we'll go live to miami for a preview of what we can expect from the candidates.

and the great steve kornacki joins the conversation. we're back in two minutes. e conn we're back in two minutes. ay. whether it's using rewards points toward things like complimentary maintenance. or for vehicle accessories. and with fordpass, a tap can also get you 24/7 roadside assistance. and lock your vehicle. only fordpass puts all this in the palm of your hand. fordpass. built to keep you moving. so, every day, we put our latest technology and unrivaled network to work. the united states postal service makes more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. e-commerce deliveries to homes through the at&t network, edge-to-edge intelligence gives you the power to see every corner of your growing business. from using feedback to innovate...

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i think my go-to toothpaste is going to be pronamel repair. i get old wooden crates and i paint them. i paint the passengers enjoying themselves. >> okay. great. >> on the wonderful bus. >> oh. >> ladies and gentlemen. >> your next prime minister.

>> the could be prime minister of the uk, boris johnson has people scratching their heads after that bizarre answer to a question about what he does to relax. >> what do you do to relax? >> that was just dumbfounding. >> that was a great deleted scene from spinal tap. it was incredible, that long and winding road and that was the condensed version of it by the way as he works through what he does, and he became short with the interviewer, he was annoyed because he knew there was no end to his story. he is likely as you say the next prime minister of the uk and he paints old crates to look like buses in his free time. listen, whatever clears your head, joe. >> welcome back to "morning joe." >> it's john lennon, whatever gets you through. we have political writer for the "new york times," nick c

confasori. >> do you like the show? >> i like the show. and more importantly the president likes the show and that's what i'm here for. >> washington bureau chief for usa today, susan page is with us. director of studies at stanford university, lonnie chen, and white house correspondent for pbs news hour, yamish alsadore, and national political, and nbc and author of the red and the blue, steve kornacki joins us. the rage is here. he's so cute. the first democratic debate. >> by the way, the rage doesn't paint crates, the rage has crates in his garage and he just busts them over his knees and cracks them. >> he has a garage just to throw things against the wall. >> that guy. >> the first democratic debate of the 2020 presidential race kicks off just hours from now, and nbc and msnbc and telemundo

will be hosting live in miami. ten candidates will take the stage this evening, and ten others debate tomorrow night. our msnbc special coverage begins at 7:00 p.m. eastern with the main event kicking off at 9 eastern. and tomorrow, morning joe will break it all down live from miami. it's going to be fun. >> steve kornacki, break it down for us. what are you looking for this first night. >> look, all eyes are on elizabeth warren. right, there's five candidates who are popping in the polls right now, four of them are going to be tomorrow night. elizabeth warren is the only one who's going to be on the stage. it's the biggest opportunity for her to stand out. she's been, i really think she has been good in settings like this historically. if you think about how her political career launched back in massachusetts, she was thinking about getting in a senate race back in 2011, 2012, it was a viral video, at a local town hall event in massachusetts, she had a clip about a 90 second answer that went viral, she raised millions of dollars, it became, you know,

one of those clips that played in the media a lot. i think she's capable of those kinds of moments, the kind of moment a challenge is to produce, and next to her on either side, booker and beto o'rourke, and you've got sort of a story of i think unrealized potential in both of those candidates, you know, cory booker, i remember i started covering new jersey politics about 20 years ago, cory booker, everybody in new jersey talked about him as a future president back then in new jersey before he was even mayor of narewark. a chance for him to pop. beto o'rourke, obviously started double digits, he's done nothing but decline, a chance for him to reverse his fortunes and the other candidates on the stage, i got to say the one thing is this is almost like an ncaa tournament where they say survive and advance, remember the dnc changes the rules at the end of the summer, so the criteria if you want to keep going this these debates through the rest of the year, you got to increase your support, and you got to increase the number of

donors you're getting, so for seven other candidates who are not getting a lot of conversation, they got to stand out in some way because they got to start registering in the polls or they're not going to stay in these debates. >> you know what's so interesting, the candidate that is so dominant that in a poll released earlier this week in the early states is in the 40s in 20 plus points out of everybody else. joe biden will not be on the stage tonight. any reporting that other candidates will be attacking joe biden in his absence? >> from what i have been hearing, the thing that is really focussed and what candidates have on their mind is really they want to measure themselves and present themselves as someone who could beat donald trump. i think with joe biden not being on the stage, that gives elizabeth warren even more air, more opportunity to really go after the person that she really wants to go after, who was donald trump, i think everyone else might be actually looking at elizabeth war skren and sayi

what should we talk about on her campaign. she is starting to make strides with african-american women. she is rising in the polls. what i'm watching for is whether or not cory booker or beto o'rourke or bill de blasio, way off in the wings, whether or not those people are going to be coming for elizabeth warren because joe biden quite literally is not going to be on the stage. everyone that i talked to, democrats, even some republicans say all of this is about the man that's not actually in the room who won't be in the room either night, which is of course donald trump who is supposed to be live tweeting. we'll be watching to see what his responses are. >> there's a question of fundraising on this, if somebody has a good moment on the stage, someone polling at 1, 2, 3, 4,%, they have a good moment, they may see their fundraising go up. if somebody has a bad night, they could be wiped off the stage and not return by the time we get to the next one. there are people up there like tim ryan, the ohio congressman who's got serious policy ideas who may get a chance without bernie and biden and the other

front runners on the stage to stretch his legs a little bit, and explain to the country who he is and why he wants to be president but the truth is with elizabeth warren, her poll numbers have been going up over the last couple of months and the question about relatability, her numbers have been going up. >> it's true. this is going to start chapter two of this presidential contest. chapter one was people get into the pool, right, we have seen candidates add and add, even joe sustick adding himself in the past couple of days. some candidates who are on the stage tonight won't be around when we go to the iowa caucuses in february. these debates are powerful. there was a university of missouri study that showed people who watched primary debates in the presidential election only 40% of them supported the same candidate at

the end of the debate that they did at the beginning. 60% chose a candidate where they hadn't before or switched allegiances during a debate. early debates can be powerful in sorting out a big field, defining it and making it smaller. >> so steve, what constitutes a big moment? we keep using that term. somebody has to have a moment, if you're cory booker, beto o'rourke, one of the lower tier candidates, julian castro, tim ryan, what would be a breakout moment for one of them? >> you almost have to define these in terms of you think of how news spreads these days through social media. it's through going viral. think of pete buttigieg. he's the mayor of a city of 102,000 people, and he's one of the five candidates who's standing out in the polls right now in a field of two dozen. how did the do thhe do that, a that i think of that produced these 45, 60, 90 second clips wide widely shared online.

he was able to raise small donations, picked up in the media cycle and this becomes a self-perpetuati self-perpetuating thing. attention begets attention, if you can get a little attention online, you can get traction, and if you get a lot of traction online, everybody starts talking about how you're getting traction online. elizabeth warren, one of the first sort of viral age clips i can remember was that, you know, introductory video, it was a viral video fundraiser in 2011, and i remember seeing the potential of it back then, and that's why i think her skills are conducive to this. i think booker has a little bit of that too. a dark horse to keep an eye on, julian castro going to be up there. i think he's capable of something like that as well. >> joe, i think it's important to remind everybody, this is an introduction to most americans to this field. we talk about it. we live it every day, we look at the polls and how they change from week to week. we know that beto o'rourke perhaps had a rocky rollout with the vanity fair cover. most americans when they sit down at 9:00 eastern time to

turn on msnbc or wherever they want to watch this debate, will be meeting many candidates for the first time, hearing their stories for the first time, hearing their policy ideas for the first time. >> well, exactly. it's just what i was saying earlier about the mueller report, we're in the middle of this. we live this. there's a subsection of the population who lives this and watches cable news but it's just a small subset of a larger population. it's the same thing with this democratic field. most americans aren't yet familiar with a lot of these candidates, so you're right, this is going to be an introduction. some have had an introduction. we were talking about mayor pete before. mayor pete told us his appearance on "morning joe" produced a breakthrough moment for him, one of their biggest fundraising days. other people have had breakthroughs, elizabeth warren has had her own breakthroughs as well. tonight will be a chance for other candidates to have that breakthrough moment and it's going to be important.

and lonnie, obviously donald trump doesn't want that to happen and more so than any other president, he will be willing to distract to live tweet, to do whatever it takes to draw attention away from the democratic field. i'm wondering what your thoughts are knowing that donald trump is so good at this game. what are your thoughts, if you're a democratic candidate, the president's live tweeting, how do you deal with that looming presence of donald trump when you're up on stage and you're one of ten democrats? >> well, i mean, that's almost what you want, joe. i think you want the president to come after you. you want the president to raise your profile, and raise your attention. imagine someone like julian castro who hasn't had a lot of the traction so far being directly confronted by the president of the united states during the debate. that's debate gold. i think the challenge for these candidates, we have alluded to it a little bit here. you want to create a moment, but

you can't do it intentionally. you can't try and create the moment. being involved in the debate prep. a similar dynamic with lots of folks on stage, you need to be focussed on presenting your own case to the american people and presenting your own contrast with president trump. if you go out there and try to create a moment, it can look like you're trying too hard, that can create real challenges for you, as opposed to being natural and saying here's who i am, here's an introduction for what i stand for and my democratic votership give me a second long. >> all of that is so much easier said than done. joining us from miami, nbc news political reporter, ally vitale, and shaquille brewster. and shaq has been to ten cities and six states and washington, d.c. with senator bernie sanders campaign. two similar candidates who are

getting very different reactions on the trail. >> reporter: whether you're talking about taxing the wealthy or being tough on wall street or even the idea of cancelling student debt they like what they hear from both candidates. if you go to these events and listen to what senator sanders supporters have to say, they mentioned elizabeth warren a lot meaning she has a lot of room for growth. >> i respect them both. they bring different things. she has great ideas. she has a way of explaining them that few people can do. even bernie can't quite touch that, but bernie is the head of a movement and that really does matter. >> we see a lot of the same guts and backbone in elizabeth than we see in bernie but on balance, i think bernie is a stronger candidate to go against donald trump. >> i'm still keeping an open mind for warren at the moment, but it's probably going to be sanders. >> reporter: what's the determining factor there? >> the determining factor is

honestly going to be how the debates go. >> reporter: if you look at senator warren's rise in the polls it doesn't appear to be taking from senator sanders. his numbers have been flat. she has been taking from other candidates, like kamala harris and pete buttigieg. it will be interesting to see if she chips away at sanders support. mika. >> thank you very much. let's go to ali vitale for that so i had of the story. what have you seen on the road? -- ali vitali. >> reporter: i've heard from voters, now that elizabeth warren is in the case, they are kind of up for grabs and sometimes switching sides. listen to what i have heard on the road. >> did you consider supporting bernie sanders. >> i did caucus for bernie

sanders in 2016. >> reporter: because you didn't want to caucus for hillary clinton. >> now bernie sanders without the foil of hillary clinton. >> that's right, but i like the sort of systematic approach that elizabeth warren brings to it, so she's my number one pick this time. >> reporter: i thought bernie was -- >> i thought bernie was a great candidate but he doesn't have the plans in place. >> elizabeth warren, kamala harris, joe biden, cory booker is in there. >> reporter: i'm not hearing bernie sanders in that mix. >> that's true. you know what, let me think about that. i guess bernie is in there. you're right. >> reporter: you're a little skeptical. >> yeah, yeah. >> reporter: i guess bernie sanders is in there. i have to say i have been struck by this idea that when i talk to voters at elizabeth warren rallies and i ask who is on their list, they are listing off kamala harris, and pete buttigieg, it's striking because

as much as elizabeth warren and bernie sanders are policy allies, they stand for a lot of the same things. voters aren't grouping them together when they consider their list making, just like the last voter. >> ali vitali, and shaquille bruce, thank you for your coverage. i'm now hearing from never trumpers, but never warrens who are now saying well, you know, if she makes it through this process, i can see myself supporting her in a way i would never support bernie sanders for many of these people who consider capitalism to be an all right thing, they would still never vote for bernie sanders in the general election, but elizabeth warren is now getting more grudging respect from mainstream democrats and even

mainstream donors. >> that's a great set of words, and there is certainly more, i think real life, if they run against donald trump and donald trump has the simple club of saying she's a socialist, 57% of people think socialism is un-american. i think that's a loser. the one thing in tonight's debate strategy and tomorrow night also, that supercedes everything, there's a difference between what people say they think and what they feel. the candidate that can stand up there and say i can punch donald trump in the nose supercedes everything. we have been watching two and a half years. people are unsettled. people are frightened. our democracy is in play. there's such a deep unsettlement, people are going to be judging the person they

see that can knock donald trump out, i use that as a metaphor is going to be the winner and that is going to drive everything. people go i like this, i like this, the fear of donald trump, the fear of four more years of donald trump, if i'm tim ryan, if i'm castro, elizabeth warren, anybody, convince me that i can get rid of that ogar. >> there were so many instances in 2016 in the republican debates where one republican after another failed to stand up to donald trump. one of the most discouraging for me isas a jeb supporter is when jeb told trump he owed his wife an apology, and trump said no, we don't, and jeb just moved on and didn't follow up with it. you've prepared presidential candidates for debates. what are they doing right now

and what would you be telling, with the knowledge that you learned from 2016 in debate prep, what would you be telling these democratic candidates? >> well, i think there's two things. i think a lot of candidates on the day of the debate, you know, frankly, you think the best thing to do is to take it easy, you know, and not to overdo it. not to feel like you have to squeeze in every last minute of preparation. i think that can create the wrong kind of environment in the candidate. as far as dealing with donald trump, i think the jeb dynamic with donald trump at that time was tough because when you're on that stage together it's very different than having a donald trump in the abstract. so i think tonight these candidates are going to demonstrate. they're going to each want to demonstrate how they are individually capable of taking on donald trump directly. and their challenge is going to be not so much dealing with trump in a direct way but demonstrating without trump in

the room and on the stage how they can respond to him and how they're able to stand up to him come the general election. >> steve kornacki, debate exercises, you know, candidates have different things, cory booker says he does pushups, you know, that was weird, to be honest, but preparation for the debates is important. it's about being flexible, nimble, able to sort of jump on the moment, and we're hearing reports that bernie sanders is not doing a lot of debate prep. what are you hearing? >> i mean, i guess that wouldn't be surprising, though, would it because sanders reminds me of the kind of candidate in a lot of ways who has been delivering the same message, giving the same basic speech throughout his career. and so the sanders approach to this has always struck me as much less tactical and reactive than we see with most other candidates. i think that would make sense. i did see him draw some clear distinctions with biden last

week. they're going to be standing next to each other on stage as you mentioned in the set up earlier. sanders not in the position relative to this field than he was a couple of years ago against hillary clinton. he may be feeling a little bit more of an imperative to draw some sharp contrast with biden. i look at that set up tomorrow night and the question of is anybody going to directly go after biden and mix it up with him, sanders does strike me as somebody who might make that decision. >> why don't you, steve, set this up for us, the state of the race as we're moving into this debate. we're going to see 20 challenges. of course there are so many of us that were saying that joe biden was waiting too long to get into the race, and joe biden, many people considered him to be too old, too unfocussed, it would never work for him, and of course the second he got into the field, we saw at least around the morning joe set numbers that were far

higher than many of us expected, certainly a lot higher than whatever i expected and of course he's been through a series of stumbles over the past week. you can talk about the segregationist comments, also you can talk about the hyde amendment where he talks about federal funding of abortion, but he's moved past those and if you look at the poll that finished up on sunday, after the eastland controversy, joe biden's not only holding on, he's stronger than ever especially in the early states, he's sitting at 38%. bernie sanders is at 19%, but go to those early states that matter, biden actually up 3 at 43%. the closest competitor, bernie sanders, 22 points behind. let's talk about the state of the race. what do you think? >> yeah, and the particular reason too for that early state advantage for biden is south

carolina. he's doing best in south carolina among the early states and the reason for that is you see this in south carolina and you see this nationally, biden is running 10 plus points better with black voters than he is with white voters, so that's been a particular advantage to him so far. in terms of biden, the good news for him is he jumped out to that lead when we got into the race, maybe a little bit higher than people were expecting. he's largely maintained that heading into the debate and he has done that in the face of some pretty intense scrutiny of his entire career. four decades in the united states senate. all of these conversations about the crime bill in the 1990s, school bussing in delaware in the 1970s, abortion hearings in the 1980s, how he would handle as vice president the swearing in ceremonies with all of these videos and you know, putting his arms around people, all of that stuff has been pretty relentlessly hashed out over the last few months, as you mentioned, joe biden is still sitting there clearly in front of this democratic pack.

it leads me to suspect the long-term, the question that i have about biden is less about is he out of alignment with the party on this issue or that issue or is he going to be held retroactively accountable for bussing, that's not the big question. the question to me is what you got to is that judgment people make when they see them on stage with the other candidates and start seeing them on the trail every single day which we have not seen so far. he'll be 78 years old if he is sworn in, we have never had a president that old sworn in. i don't think people have a number where 79 is too old, i don't think it's that but i think there's some kind of qualitative judgment that people are making where they want to get the sense that, yeah, you know what, forget the number, this guy is up to it. we can get behind this guy for four years, and i think that's the test. i don't know: we're sort of in uncharted territory. we have never had a president 80 years old in office. i think that's the test he has to pass from this point forward. >> you're exactly right.

i may have flinched five years ago at that prospect of somebody getting sworn in at 78 and that is until i saw the most effective house speaker since sam rayburn in the form of nancy pelosi, my god, i have known nancy for years, i have had great respect for her for years, nancy pelosi is at her best right now. it's a remarkable thing to see. also fairly remarkable, not quite as remarkable but fairly remarkable was watching reaction to joe biden's comments on jim eastland and working with other segregationists and you always look at a campaign and see who reacts and if they have people standing behind them and my gosh, joe biden in south carolina had jim clyburn. he had john lewis, the living legend of the civil rights movement, had reverend al

sharpton, all standing up and speaking out and vouching for joe biden. that certainly had to help. we saw those polls. that certainly had to help with some voters in south carolina and across the country. >> as much as it might have helped but i think it was also what you saw on display was this generational divide. you named jim clyburn, reverend al sharpton, older after can americans. john lewis being an icon in the civil rights movement, those are all people people will listen to, i understand your point, but joe biden was talking about not just segregationists, but they were calling for the mass murder for people of african-american descent. what we're talking about is whether or not joe biden can move past this. i think if i'm someone going on stage with joe biden, kamala harris or even marian williams,

you're trying to remind people, look at what joe biden has been through in the first couple of weeks. is he someone who can continue on with this. as much as steve said he's not focussed on whether or not these issues are going to be retroactively looked at. as a reporter, i'm very much interested in whether or not other candidates are going to try to hold joe biden accountable. i heard from young african-americans, including people who are ferguson protesters and other people who were just very taken aback by the idea that joe biden would want to talk about a civil time of working with segregationists because the elephant in the room is that people were worried he was talking about making america great again, this idea if you look back at america's history, you'll find an amazing time everyone was getting along. african americans, when you go forward, you start seeing progress for the vast majority of the people that make up the grass roots of the democratic party, not backwards, black people don't usually look backwards to look at the good times. >> you know, mika, that's why

it's so important, you take what lonnie was talking about, to be able to move, be agile on stage, what steve was talking about, what's joe biden going to be able to do, will he be able to say on stage, if let's say kamala or someone else comes at him, elizabeth comes at him on this, will he be able to say what john lewis said, remind people that john lewis said he even had to work at times with klansmen and figure out a way to move forward, and it's so important also for joe biden to continue to say what he said from the floor of the senate back in his farewell speech and what he also said when he came to the senate which was i came to the senate to undo the work of segregationists, i came to the senate to promote civil rights and then taking it as a positive, that he learned how to work on other issues with these

people, these segregationists, whose life mission he was seeking to undermine. joe biden has got to figure out a way to say that on the debate stage tonight to help put this behind him. >> i think he's on tomorrow night. >> or tomorrow night. >> steve car knakornacki, lonni susan page, thank you for being on the show this morning. our next guest represents a district miles from the u.s. southern border. xochitl torres small to discuss issues playing out in congress. you're watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. ss you're watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. my experience with usaa has been excellent. they really appreciate the military family and it really shows. with all that usaa offers why go with anybody else? we know their rates are good, we know that they're always going to take care of us. it was an instant savings and i should have changed a long time ago.

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you had a back and forth with the leader of iran this morning via tweet, what message did you want to send to him with

your tweet. >> there is no message. when they're ready, they have to let us know. >> ready to negotiate, up. >> ready to do whatever. it doesn't make a difference. i'm ready. >> do you have an exit strategy with iran if war does break out. >> you're not going to need an exit strategy. i don't need exit strategies. >> joining us now a member of the house arms services and homeland security committee, democratic congresswoman, xochitl torres small of new mexico. what is your view on the president's strategy or approach to iran at this point? >> itch real concerns and frankly, i think they are bipartisan concerns when it comes to the president's strategy in iran. we are concerned that there aren't, that deescalation techniques we need, the plan for making sure that we are deescalating as opposed to making real concerns for

potential escalating the current situation. >> let's go to obviously the tragedy at the border yesterday, we saw a photo that has broken the hearts of so many americans. what would you say to those who would say, well, they shouldn't have been coming here anyway, it was illegal. could you explain to those people in our audience our laws regarding letting people come to seek refugee status and how that has been a tradition in america for hundreds of years? >> i represent about 178 miles of u.s./mexico border and that includes border towns and communities that are doing the hard work that it takes right now to shoulder a federal responsibility. that includes people who are doing that work, regardless of how they feel about border policy because we are a country of laws but we are also a country of values and we need to make sure as we are enforcing those laws, we're doing it in a

way that keeps kids and keeps the dignity of children so we're not detaining kids in conditions that are inhumane. >> let's look forward, obviously when barack obama left office, the illegal border crossings were at a 50-year low. they have exploded over the past couple of years and the trump administration, many people believe, because trump actually played right into smuggler's hands by saying he was going to shut down the border , so a lot of smugglers were able to push people up to america. what do we need to do to have that number start falling again and get down to the numbers, the legal crossings it was under barack obama. >> since before i was sworn in, i have been advocating to make sure that we have the right resources in the right places along our u.s./mexico border. we have to make sure that we are

stopping human traffickers and drug smugglers and we also have to make sure that we are enforcing our laws in a way that reflects our values. that's why this dhs border supplemental is so important because it gets funds to a much necessary challenge that we're facing, a crisis we're facing along the border. it has guard rails to make sure that the standards for people who are being detained are humane and it also supports our border patrol agents and customs officers who are being asked to do work that they didn't sign up for. that's why we need to get these funds to the border to address the current crisis. >> congresswoman, it's willie geist, good to have you on this morning. i want to ask you about the border patrol detention facility that's gotten a lot of attention because of the media reporting in the last couple of days, where 300 or so children were found to be living in complete squalor, didn't have medical supplies, sanitary supplies that they needed. they were moved out, now we're told about a hundred or so have

been moved back to the facility. do you have a way to monitor, not just that facility because it's in texas, but others like it to make sure children are being taken care of. >> we are working to make sure we have all the information we need on facilities. since before i was sworn in i have been in close contact both with people who are receiving families that have been released with attorneys who are representing children, border patrol agents who are seeing these conditions feirsthand. the constituents i represent, include border patrol agents and customs officers who are concerned. they are trying to do their job in a way that reflects values. they don't have the resources or the guidelines for how to do that, and that's why this dhs s supplemental is important because it includes the funding and standards necessary to keep children safe and to make sure we are protecting our border. >> congresswoman, most americans hear the details of those stories and say how on earth can this happen in the united states

of america. where is the failure in that story? >> there's failure in multiple fronts. one is we don't have the funding we need to make sure that there are appropriate facilities for children in the immediate time that they have been received. two is that we don't have the standards, and i've talked to people on the ground, border patrol agents, people who are providing medical assistance who say we need those standards to make sure we get the funds necessary. we are seeing a break down in leadership when we have the commissioner of border patrol leaving yesterday. there's no continuity in terms of a plan, and that's why this dhs supplemental is so important. >> hey, congresswoman, i wanted to ask you about the debate in your own party about the house bill, there's a group of liberals and hispanic lawmakers who are saying if we give the president some more money for what he's doing at the border, he'll keep doing it. i'm curious what your message is or conversations have been like

with your colleagues in the democratic caucus about how to handle the crisis at the border, the humanitarian part while also taking on president trump as many of them want to on his actual policies there? >> listen, right now when it comes to these conditions that children are being held in, this is not a policy debate. this is about how do we reflect our shared values and do something about this. no one wants kids to be held in these conditions. and that's why we have to get the funding we need and the standards we need to make sure that we have the resources on the ground and we're doing the right thing by kids. >> congresswoman, xochitl torres small, thank you very much. good to have you on, and up next, senate majority leader mitch mcconnell is pushing secretary of state mike pompeo to run for the senate in 2020 but pompeo reportedly has his sights set on a higher office. we'll explain.

>> the dear leader of north korea. >> i don't know. >> what's the higher office. also good news, everybody, it's official. >> oh, good. >> yep. we booked the great willie geist. >> no way. >> to join joe and me in coral gables, florida, tomorrow, alongside my coauthor of earn it, daniel pierre bravo. you can get tickets at knowyourvalue.com. >> you know what the kids are calling this around the university of miami campus, the willie sound machine. >> no seriously they're excited. >> you are. >> so joe books and books has already sold out. >> you do that every day. >> books and books has sold out. they are now finding a different venue so they can fill all of

willie's fans, and donnie, if you come, donny deutsch, that will basically empty the room. we'll go back to the smaller facility, maybe just do it in the store. >> i was offering my services to thin out the crowd a little bit. >> you know what, the way i look at it, donny, you do that on saturday nights. >> exactly. >> i'm just joking, it's an amazing show. more people actually saw donny's show last week, and than saw the beatles on ed sullivan. get your tickets to simi kee mi daniela, and the willie geist sound machine at knowyourvalue.com. knowyourvalue.com.

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america has become the nation with the highest rate of incarceration in the world, according to the equal justice initiative. the increase in the prison population from fewer than 200,000 in 1972 to 2.2 million today has led to unprecedented overcrowding and has put a massive strain on state budgets and that's just the beginning. not even talking about the human toll there. joining us now, the founder and executive director of the equal justice initiative, brian stephenson. he's the subject of the new hbo documentary entitled true justice, brian stevenson's fight for equality, that looks at the legacy and impact of extreme incarceration and centuries of racial inequality in america. let's take a look. >> i was sitting there in agony thinking about why i do what i do. i kept thinking about how broken he was. had been broken by poverty, broken by disability, broken by trauma, bias and discrimination. what i realized that night that

i never had realized before is that i do what i do because i'm broken too. >> and brian joins us now. so great to have you here. >> thank you. >> let's talk about the documentary, and really your life's work. the fight for equality. the fight against inequality, and we can start with mass ma incarceration. how did we get to 2.2 people behind bars. >> the politics of fear and anger. in the 1970s and 80s, politicians were preaching be afraid angry. they are the ingredients to make you comfortable with things you shouldn't be comfortable with. we declared this misguided war on drugs, saying people who are drug addicted and dependent are criminals. we could have said people with addiction and health problems have a health problem and we need our health care system to respond to that. by criminalizing it we have sent hundreds of thousands of people to jails or prisons and we began talking about three strikes laws

and everybody wanted to be tough on crime, and that rhetoric created this explosion, where we now have 6 million people on probation or parole. there are 70 million americans are criminal arrest histories which means when they try to get jobs or try to get loans they are disfavored by that history. the bureau of justice predicts that one in three black male babies born in this country is expected to go to jail in his lifetime. that wasn't true in the 20th century or 19th century. the data for latino boys is one in six, and i think that's the challenge, we have been aculture raised to accept this level of incarceration and punishment, life without parole for simple possession of marijuana, writing a bad check for $50, 50 year prison sentence, and this extreme nature of our system which has made it so abusive and cruel. >> i think the first step as you know much better than i is to shine a light on this and to let people know this is going on, and that has been your life's work. do you feel that now in the

last, i don't know, decade or so, there has been so much attention given to it that it is beginning to change, on the margins, i know, the problem is still there, but we're seeing a roll back, when people look at a kid who was arrested with a people look at a kid arrested with a bag of cocaine walking away and an african-american kid who had a dime bag going away for ten years, that doesn't sit right for some people. >> i think we are encouraging in a narrative struggle around this issue. we just assumed everybody was guilty and everybody deserved to be in this situation. the more we like at these stories, the more we see our system makes a lot of mistakes. i think we have a system in too many places of this country that treats you better if you're rich and guilty than poor and innocent. and that error rate is disturbing. trying children as adult errors, 13 states with no minimum age of trying a child as an adult. and i don't believe any american

believes a 10-year-old should be in an adult prison. so i think this allowed us to level of rate of increase but we still have a lot of work to do to bring down the population. >> good morning, brian. having interviewed a number of wrongfully conflicted men myself, i have to say your work is so important. the criminal justice system is often described as broken but some say it's working the way it's designed and supposed to be working, incarcerating african-american numbers that are not with their population. tell me if the criminal justice system is operating the way it was designed to operate. >> i think we often respond in the african-american community by creating these new systems of

control and throughout our history we used crime and criminality to push back against reform. after man's emancipation we turned to criminals, an error of criminal that that justified decades of lynching and racial terror and violence. dr. king and civil rights workers were called criminals. we use the criminal justice system to push back against civil rights advocates and it was police and firefighters using those tools. it is a real phenomenon. we now see slelective enforcement. drug and drug addiction is involved as well. we use that high rate in schools. but i think if we're a country governed by the rule of law, we have tools that can push back at that and that's why enforcing these laws in a fair and just way is the response. i actually now think fewer and fewer people want us to be

spending $80 billion a year on jails and prisons because it's actually taking away from funds in other areas. that's the opportunity we have to really challenge this narrative. >> brian, first of all, congratulations on your amazing work. if you get to watch the documentary for two hours, you get it. unfortunately, we're in a soundbite world. what is the simple communication message against the other side that says tough on crime. everybody wants to be tough on crime. crime is a big word, bad word. what is the simple response to that to get the point we need to across? >> i think the question is do you want to be tough on crime or smart on crime? do you want to improve public safety or optic of being tough? most americans don't want to hear after they've been raped or robbed or assaulted we would be really tough. they want to hear how you actually lower rates of offending and do you that by

investing in the rates and respond and change dynamics. and we've done very little to lower crime rates in the places we engaged in mass incarceration. crime rates have fallen when we began to think about what do communities at risk need and we respond to those needs. that's right in the death penalty question, do people deserve to die is not the question but the threshold question is do we deserve to kill? in every ten people, we identified one person on death row. if we allow policy and bias to influence that, do we deserve it? i don't think it's that hard to get people to see the choices we made are not the right choices. putting people in prison for decades because they have an addiction or are disabled doesn't make sense. >> so we will see the democratic candidates who want to be president of the united states,

over four hours and two days. what do you should be the areas you would want to hear. >> i think we have the highest areas of population in the in prison in the world and we shouldn't be proud of that. i want to talk about how the federal government will incentivize state governments to engage in reform. this is not a problem to be solved completely at the national level. in the '90s congress gave states millions of dollars to end parole, keep people in prison for longer and that's what i would love to see leaders talking about that. how do we undo that and talk about the policies that gave rise to one of the tragic areas from history when it comes to criminal justice. >> the documentary "true justice" debuts tonight

exclusively on hbo. brian, it's great to see you and the work you do with the equal justice initiative is so important. coming up, robert mueller and democrats pushing for the special counsel to testify. next month they get that chance. plus, debate in miami. msnbc correspondent jacob soboroff has been talking about local residents. he joins us with what he learned. you're watching "morning joe." this simple banana peel represents a bold idea: a way to create energy from household trash. it not only saves about 80% in carbon emissions... it helps reduce landfill waste. that's why bp is partnering with a california company: fulcrum bioenergy. to turn garbage into jet fuel. because we can't let any good ideas go to waste. at bp, we see possibilities everywhere.

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. texas senator ted cruz. >> businessman, donald trump. >> florida senator marco rubio. >> former florida governor jeb bush. >> wow. >> wow. >> let's hope tonight's ten candidates have an easier time finding the stage than the seven

republicans did in 2016. remember that? awkward. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, june 26th. debate night. this is the big night, along with joe, willie and me, we have political reporter for "the new york times" and msnbc political analyst, nick can fa sory. the host of "saturday night politics" on msnbc, donny deutsche is with us. and washington bureau chief for "usa today" and author of "the matriarch," susan paige. >> willie, do you think there's any chance we can maybe draft ben carson just to do these democratic debates? he was so fascinating to watch. even getting out on the stage was always an adventure. >> we didn't have time to show the beauty of that moment but his name was called several times prior and he just stood there, greeting people as they went out to the stage. hope sfli th

hopefully they will be more organized in miami tonight. three weeks from today, this is the big news and we will get to the debate preview for what's happening. former special counsel robert mueller is scheduled it toef with his report before lawmakers on capitol hill. the chairs of the house, intelligence and judiciary committees subpoenaed mueller's testimony for back-to-back hearings on july 17. mueller will appear in open sessions before both panels, and later his staff will answer questions in a closed hearing. all of this debite muellspite m assistance he had nothing more to say, which the chair acted to last night. >> the report is my testimony. i will not provide information beyond that which is already public in any appearance before congress. >> what they have represented to us is that they view themselves as prosecutors and prosecutors don't normally talk outside of

the trial or outside of the indictment but let's face it, this is not a electric additional prosectorial case. what more, william barr has felt more than free as attorney general to speak well beyond the mueller report f he's able to speak beyond the four corners of the mueller report, so too should bob mueller feel free to do so. >> and mika, also, need not run of the million prosecutor here and he didn't act as prosecutor in that report. he said from the beginning i can't do the main job as a prosecutor. i can't tell if you donald trump is guilty of crimes. so it's not like he was going to make a decision to indict or not indict. we're in a middle ground here and he needs to go to the hill and he needs to talk about his report and he needs to explain some of those conclusions. >> president trump's lawyer rudy

giuliani responded stating, i think it's testimony is going to be just like his press conference, totally useless. with him repeating, i can't make up my mind. >> donny deutsche, again, it is hard to believe -- >> it is rudy. >> -- he ran a city like new york, let alone many people, like myself, considered him to be a very ee ektiffective way. again, that's just a cynical, stupid thing for rudy giuliani to say. when robert mueller said at the top of the report and justice guidelines h guidelines made him say at the top of the report he could not say the president should be indicted, he could not draw that conclusion. here you have the president's lawyers just being stupid. just lying. i'm sure there's a lot of stupid people that will pick that up and will tweet it but it's totally separated from the fact it doesn't change the facts at all. and again, just more of --

moment embarrassment for rudy giuliani. >> joe, you know, you said i lived through rudy giuliani as mayor. his very strong job at 9/11. just watching him degenerate into this pathetic circus figure. stupid, lying, grotesque in every way, sold his soul to be near the sun. >> by the way, that's a great word. for rudy giuliani, a prosecutor who worked for the justice department who knew robert mueller -- by the way, he used to vest for robert mueller, as did a lot of people, but who knew he could not reach a conclusion and then turn around and use the fact that he followed the law, followed the constitution against him, is grotesque. go ahead. i'm sorry to interrupt. >> and what people will do at a certain age to be in the spotlight is sad. it's actually -- these pathetic.

he's taken on a pathetic tone. one thing i will say moving off this of giuliani and i want to give everybody a heads up not to be too disappointed, will mueller talk -- i agree, joe, what you said last week, mueller is a war hero and dedicated his life to service, there's a weird place he's occupied like i'm above it. we do need to hear him but i do not think anything will dr dramatically change. we have been waiting for a face and words. all along we've been waiting for the mueller report and this to be a silver moment, defining moment, and it won't. hopefully one peerks apiece andi talked about the ongoing investigation. i don't want a post-mueller depression. when he gets up there, it will be recorded for history, but i don't think it's going to dramatically change where we are. >> except, willie, if he just

reads the report, the report itself is da itself is devastating. ten examples of obstruction of justice. and the russian portion of the report -- >> joe, don't we know that? >> no, no. the overwhelming number of americans had their view of the mueller report framed by one of the most intellectually dishonest public displays i have ever seen in my life, and that was attorney general barr trying to frame it as aggressively as he could as donald trump's roy cohn. but willie, you look through it. most americans haven't read this report but most americans will see robert mueller testify. and it will be the first time for i would say over 50% of americans that they actually know what's in the report. now, this is going to depend on the democrats actually do

something that they don't usually do. they need to coordinate their message. they need to coordinate their questions. they need to coordinate their themes to make sure that the americans get as much of the mueller report that day as possible. >> there is real power in just hearing the voice of robert mueller, the man who spent two years working on this case. remember when he came out and just read his statement for eight minutes or so, there was power in that. and nick confessore will be asked direct questions about obstruction of justice. that was the drikts part of the report, volume two, he said i couldn't reach a conclusion one way or another. but here are 10, 12 examples that could be interpreted the president of the united states committed obstruction of justice. he will be asked that direct question. is that not, mr. mueller, obstruction of justice? what will he say? will he say my report speaks for itself? he will have to answer questions at some point. >> no one know what's will happen here or how it's going to

play out. it's probably the most anticipated moment in a hearing in years and years. the vast majority of americans have not read this report. they've seen the headlines. and report is long, it's written in legalese in some ways. it's not a criticism, it's carefully written. but there could be a great effect for democrats and people who care about this if he simply has asked to zero in on key questions opinion frame them in the way they're framed in the report, not just without the surrounding parts of the report, all of the hundreds of pages that are in there. it's very hard for people to sit there and read this long two-part report but they can watch the testimony and for democrats it's really a last chance i think to reframe the question of impeachment, to reframe how the public saw the results of the investigation and drive forward on it. >> mika, that's true. it's not just for the american public, people watching and hearing in mueller's own words. it's for democrats in the house

so we're sitting on the fence of impeachment. could mueller say something that answers a question directly that knocks him off the fence towards impeachment? >> let's just to donny's point, he made a good point about the waiting for mueller and post-mueller depression. we don't need to wait with baited breath to find out this president is corrupt. this is a president who said on national television he's willing to sell out his current for foreign dirt on an opponent. this is a president in the past few days he would be willing to commit rape if a woman was his type, and that was his defense to a woman who apparently was not his type. we already know he's corrupt, that he considers crimes to be something that he doesn't get touched by the law, he has a right to things that others don't. and i think what this report will show is the depth, susan paige, of his corruption.

we will learn a little more and americans should want to learn what happened in the run up to the election. perhaps it will help oversight grapple with how to deal with the concept of impeachment when they have complicit republicans willing to stand up for a man who is slit about rape and sells out our country. that's the part nobody's prepared for, these republicans. >> one key question about mueller's testimony coming up jl 17th, does it change the dynamic around impeachment? we see the number of democrats from the house ticking up into the 70s but the standard of the speaker nancy pelosi said, and it's up to her more than any other individual whether impeachment proceedings begin is a different one. it would require americans, the public, to take a different and more aggressive attitude. to be more energized by the conclusion of the mueller report than they have been so far. for that to cause republicans, especially republicans in the

senate, that can be open to the idea of impeachment. one thing about mueller's testimony is the clock is really ticking when it comes to impeachment. there will be a point as we're way into the 2020 campaign that impeachment becomes less and less likely just because of that impending election. still ahead on "morning joe," there is little doubt the presidential candidates will be asked abouti immigration. tonight at the democratic debate we will show you where that issue stands this morning after a busy 24 hours of developments. you're watching "morning joe." " that's the only circumstance to which you would separate.

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conditions at a border patrol facility in clint, texas, there's new reporting that about 100 migrant children have been moved back into the facility. the transfer came just days of about 300 children originally housed at the border station where are moved to other

facilities to relieve overcrowding. lawyers who visited the site last week reported children were not being given attitude food or water and described unsanitary conditions, including outbreaks of the flu and lice. in an interview with msnbc this week, texas gop gongman michael burdous suggested children are not leaving the border patrol facilities because they are well taken care of. >> the casa pad dri in brownsville, texas, yes, it's a restored walmart. you know what, there's not a lock on the door. any child is free to leave at any time and they don't. you know what? they're well taken care of. >> he's talking about 2-year-old toddlers going around without diapers, what exactly are they supposed to do? are they supposed to give them their baby uber out and decide to go to dallas and hang out there? that's unbelievable. msnbc also reporting a customs and border protections official said the agency was not running

low on splieds. it was not running low on supplies. they just chose not to give those children soap. >> that's in response to reports that people who were looking to make donations were being turned away. >> is there concern about the conditions at these border patrols? >> yes, i am. that i much better than they were under president obama by far. we're trying to get the democrats to agree to give us humanitarian aid, humanitarian money. >> everything you just heard there was, of course, this will shock you, false. listen, i had a lot of people write on my timeline it was just as bad under barack obama -- funny how this works, donald trump tells a lie and his followers blindly repeat that lie like they're in a cult. a did way to find out what the

truth is, you can actually going online. i joke about the google machine, but you can find out -- because i did it yesterday -- in three minutes from multiple news sources, including conservative news sources, that that's a lie. that under barack obama children were detained only if they came alone or if they thought that children were being abused and barack obama's administration's goal was to release them as quickly as possible. politifact did some time ago what i did yesterday. they write this, the obama administration did not have a policy to separate families arriving illegally at the border. can you hear me? that is a fact. there was no child separation policy through the obama

administration. in fact, family separations rarely happened under the obama administration, which sought to keep families together while in detention. then based on a court decision, it released families together out of detention. now, when children were feared to be abused or when they came alone, they put them in facilities until they could figure out how to release them as quickly as possible. so, yes, you can snap a photo in time and see children in these detention facilities. but their goal was to never get them in those facilities and their goal, their stated goal, to get them out of those facilities as quickly as possible. i know for some of you, you can't remember exactly what happened last week, let alone last year or the year before that, you just want to listen what donald trump tweets and you

will retweet it mindlessly. i don't say it out of anger or frustration but i'm just telling you the fact. that is your fact. that is your life. but if you will just dig a little bit deeper. if you will use education your parents worked hard to pay for you, or go on the google machine next door at your neighbor, they're waiting, ask to use their google machine, what you will find in 60 seconds of searching, you will find conservative news outlets, liberal news outlets, every news outlet telling you that the trump administration, on the other hand, made it their dlibry policy, made it their deliberate policy -- stay with me. stay. come here, come here. made it their deliberate policy to separate children from families. listen, if you don't want to walk next door to google this,

we've done your work for you this morning. watch this. >> i have put in place a zero-tolerance policy for illegal entry on our southwest border. if you are smuggling a child, then we will prosecute you and that child may be separated from you as required by law. >> okay. >> and willie geist, also you had john kelly saying they would separate children from their parent and they would do so as a deterrent. they would tear babies from mothers' arms, this was what was said with cameras rolling, they would separate children from their parents. they would rip babies from their mother's arm, quote, as a deterrent. >> that's a key there, they called it a deterrent and jeff sessions said it time and again that tells you it's a strategy.

they appear by appearing tough on the border and i hesitate to say that. if your idea of being tough is let babies go around in diapers or as chris hayes said the door is open, you can leave any time you want to leave, i don't know what world of deterrence you live in. but deterrence was a strategy and a goal and they believe the best way to do it was scare people with the images like the ones ones we've seen and stories we heard yesterday by even attempting to come to the border with mexico. coming up on "morning joe" -- president trump may relive the unpredictability of his administration. immigration officials, not so much. we will talk about the fallout for them and what role the first family could play in all of this. my experience with usaa

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announcing and then canceling raids during the obama years, the priorities he instituted in 2014 which many resented as micro management now seem more sensible. what i.c.e. officer said, one person told me i never thought i would say this, but i miss the obama rules. we removed more people with the rules we had in place than with all of this. it was much easier. it was cleaner since the creation of i.c.e. in 2003. enforcement was premised on the idea officers would apparently go after criminals for deportation. president trump, who fews i.c.e. as a tool for toughness abandoned that entirely. quote, i don't even know what we're doing now, one officer said. a lot of us see the photos of the kids at the border and wondering what the hell is going on, mika?

>> i couple of things and then i want to go to susan paige. we showed jeff sessions announcing this policy. we know jeff sessions did as well. you cannot put this on obama. t facts are there. you have to look at melania and ivanka. went to the border to check on the separations. ivanka went publicly because her brand is women and children but she's taken that off her brand, children. she said this was a low point for her, this situation with the separations. so what do you think this is? when you have children in squall, with the flu spreading rampantly around them, with the children in danger on your watch? >> lies. >> for melania and ivanka, this is not being best. this is not a good look. and history will show, you will go down as history as having done nothing about this. i hope that you can live with that. susan paige, the i.c.e. agents,

the folks on the grouchbd who are trying to deal with this and are confused by the policy, confused i think morally what it is they're being asked to do and images they are seeing, talk to us about how -- this is where the institutions i worry falter a little bit. institutions need people and policies need to be clear and based on moral groundings. >> the president announced a big i.c.e. raid planned for mass deportations and it was after nancy pelosi called him and had a 12-minute conversation he agreed to put it off. we've talked earlier in the hour about the potential power of robert mueller testifying before r before congress. if you want to talk about the poech potential power of the image, think about the picture of the associated press released showing a man crossing the rio grandy drowning his 23-month-old daughter, who also drowned with

her arm around his neck clinging to him in the last moments of life. that is the kind of photo that has the potential to affect and inflame this debate and affect even the views of the president. we've seen president trump be pretty responsive sometimes to a picture, to the pictures from syria of children who had been killed by a chemical weapons attacks. i wonder if this has the potential to either for personal reasons or to political ones, to make the administration change course to at least some degree. >> well, you know, the administration did change course over the past few days in a few respects. one, they moved the children out. they fired the acting head of border equipment patrol. they moved 100 children back into those facilities. i only hope lawyers can follow up to make sure it is more

sanitary this time. canceled the i.c.e. raids this past weekends. there's been some movement, and we should be grateful for that. but nick confessore, this image the associated press published yesterday, let's put it on the screen and show people, this is the direct result of policy in the united states of america. this is a direct result of donald trump's zero-tolerance policy which sounds tough but which i.c.e. agents themselves are saying. it's making them doubt what they are doing as law enforcement officers trying to keep our borders secure. because, nick, this is the result of that policy and i repeat again, and if you don't believe me trump supporters, you

can just look at the trump administration's own statistics. as the i.c.e. agent said, nick, under barack obama's more humane policy, where this was more managed and this was more controlled and people weren't dyeing like this on the border, you actually had the fewest illegal crossings in 50 years, in half a century. now as i.c.e. acts say, there's nothing but chaos and suffering on the border. and it's all because of donald trump's policies. >> joe, that picture is very hard to look at. it's the most profoundly disturbing pictures i have seen from the entire crisis. it pairs at the heart. according to the associated press, the man swam across the rio grande. he took that risk because he wasn't being allowed to present his claim for asylum, which is his right under u.s. law and international law. yes, it is a consequence of a

policy decision from a trump administration to try to prevent people from claiming asylum. look, it actually matters what's said at the top in policy and policy making. what the president has talked about for two years now is to describe these people trying to come here as criminals and mooches and people who are up to no good. and that's going to filter down to the people working on the front lines and affect the priorities and decisions made on the ground. it's also important to note that what's happening here is a consequence of things that are happening in el salvador and costa rica and guatemala. if you look at the terrible picture of the dead man and his daughter who drowned trying to get here, it underscores how bad things are for them and their family and friends back at home and why they are taking the risk to get here. and we're probably not going to see a big change in the crisis at our border if we can't find

some way to help there be a solution back home in central america that will make conditions there possible for folks to actually stay home. they're coming here because even having their kids in those centers and taking the risk of drowning is a better fate thanz p than what's behind them. coming up on "morning joe," we'll go ahead to miami on the night of president's debate. nbc's jake or soboroff is standing by with a look at florida, florida, florida. orida.

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hey! i live on my own now! i've got xfinity, because i like to live life in the fast lane. unlike my parents. you rambling about xfinity again? you're so cute when you get excited... anyways... i've got their app right here, i can troubleshoot. i can schedule a time for them to call me back, it's great! you have our number programmed in? ya i don't even know your phone anymore... excuse me?! what? i don't know your phone number. aw well. he doesn't know our phone number! you have our fax number, obviously... today's xfinity service. simple. easy. awesome. i'll pass. welcome back to "morning joe." the first democratic debate of the 2020 presidential race kicks off just a little over 12 hours from now on nbc, msnbc, telemundo hosting live in miami both nights. msnbc correspondent jacob soboroff is inside the venue in miami. jacob, you're talking to crucial voters in that state.

>> miami is ground zero in florida when it comes to democratic voters. as blue as it gets. there are about 600,000 right here. miami is also center of pretty much all of the issues we talk about on a regular basis. homestead, the immigration detention center, ground zero for climate change and as much student debt here as elsewhere in the country. and this is what they told me when i was out there earlier. miami-dade county, if you want to know what democrats are thinking in florida, there's no better place to start than here and 600,000 of them. our first stop was winwood, a warehouse district being converted for an area for entrepreneurs. why is this being constructed? >> for tourists alike. >> in to be a place where people want to live and work? >> yes.

>> did you vote for president last time around when it was trump versus hillary? >> i did. >> i didn't. >> nope? >> nope. >> every time somebody tweets or messages me and says if you go back and say there are so many things in your life that matter? >> i guess the only thing that would affect me in politics are the tax bracket. >> you're happy with the way things are? >> yes. >> you voted? >> i voted for hillary. >> when you watch the democrats up on stage, what do they need to say too get your attention. >> i hope no one talks about trump much. i want to hear what you have to say. >> i hope they talk about environmental changes, changes we're doing to not drink out of plastic. >> blame me. >> it's me too. there are so many problems that are not talked about. student loan death bt is huge. >> who has debt? all of you guys. >> in my life being with cool and hip and young people having

coffee, everybody's got student loan debt. everybody. >> those guys are key groups everybody will target in the district. the other by far in the district are latinos and that's why we're headed to coral gables right now. are we allowed to come in? come on. every time i go to a beauty salon, they allow us to come in. what would you say would resonate with you in your everyday life? >> this is generally an affluent area and they can all afford health care comfortable by but that's not the case for everybody. >> i got rid of my health care. last night. it was ridiculous. >> aren't you worried? what if you get sick? >> i don't know. >> not far from coral gables is coconut grove. we took a quick detour. i saw you driving down, we were going to water and i saw you buying lunch or dinner. >> i have a show tonight and came to get food.

you're a musician. you were on "american idol"? >> i was. i made it to hollered in 2017. >> do you think the candidates here will understand what life is like? >> no way, no way at all. i lost government housing like the projects when i was 21, i literally came from the bottom. now i make money. now i pay my rent and i'm doing okay. after six years of sleeping in couches and sleeping in cars and tents. >> i was just in skoecoral gabl not far and a young woman who said she laz to pay $500, $600 for health care. >> i can't imagine. >> you don't have it? >> hell no. i wouldn't be eating right now. >> marquis headed off and we kept driving towards coke note grove's upscale shops and restaurants. and as happens this time of year in florida, it started poushing. how are people doing around here? are times good? >> i'm an accountant and i see small businesses are having a hard time.

>> you think these candidates understand what life is like for you guys? >> i don't think so. >> why? >> in reality they're not here in florida. they're not living it like we are. >> they don't know what it's like to do an interview in the pouring rain. >> there you go! >> miami's nice, really, beautiful place but we're not here just because of that. these voters are really going to matter in terms of who ultimately becomes the dimming nominee and at the end of the day people down there, those people standing on that stage, i'm not saying revolutionary, just have to show they understand the lives of people out here. >> jacob, i love how you say you stumbled upon that beauty salon and not going in for a blowout. >> i did. always true. >> great job. "morning joe" will be live by the way from miami tomorrow morning and on friday morning as well, breaking down those debates that begin about 12 hours from now right here on msnbc, nbc and on telemundo. still ahead this morning --

>> well, you're not very attractive. you're out of shape. >> yes. >> you're skinny yet somehow round. >> uh-huh. >> you have been profounding unsuccessful for ten years. >> yes. >> until about a month ago, we'd call you a complete failure. >> that's not quite how i would put it. >> we would say you were a complete failure. sit, please. but now, now you've hit an extraordinary song writing groove and you want to be the biggest star in the world. >> well -- >> yes is the answer to that question. >> we sit down with that star and the people behind the new beatles inspired film "yesterday" next on "morning joe." n "morning joe. we call it the mother standard of care.

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this encyclopedic knowledge of obscure pop, in this case the beatles. >> wow, this is the most complicated i ever heard. >> it's a nice song. >> it's not very nice. it's one of the songs ever written. >> it's not coldplay. it's not fixu. >> it's not at all, it's a great work of art. >> oh, my gosh, it was so good. john, paul, george and ringo. it might be a surprise to meet somebody that doesn't know the beatles. but in the movie "yesterday" only one man remembers their songs. here's the man who plays the lead role, along with danny boyle and screenwriter alex curtis. i don't like movies.

>> i've got four kids, i've seen t "the avengers" like four times. but she loved this. >> who wants to explain -- because i don't want to take away surprises in it and there are many. but the concept, the overall concept of the movie "yesterday." >> what frustrated musician came up with this? >> the idea is a pretty simple one. it happens every day. hamesh gets hit by a bus. he's unconscious for about six seconds, and during that six seconds, every single person in the world forgets the beatles exist. he's a struggling musician and then becomes very successful having every single beatles song at his beck and call. >> i've been playing music my whole life, and the part of the

movie i can relate to the most is, oh, we're going to go play the festival. you go play the festival. there's about three people there, kids running around in circles and nobody is listening to you. but what was so funny about it was when you started to play beatles songs, even, your parents, playing "let it be." >> that was a fun one. the people who played my parents were so funny. i think it was actually her invention, the "leave it be." >> then your mom starts talking to you. >> and the phones. >> what i always do, i just get the tape. i'd get the tape and go out of the room. >> i listen. >> every musician, every film. >> look at the film. a clip featuring a new working title for the beatles song "hey

jude." >> about the song, the title "hey jude." jude is just -- >> to be old-fashioned? that was a kid, right? >> who? >> that the song is about. >> oh, yes, the kid. >> let me just give you this advice, right? song title. i won't charge you a penny for it as well. "hey, dude." >> umm -- ♪ hey, dude -- >> hey, dude, are you sure? >> that's so much better. >> is it? hey, dude, don't make it fast. >> definitely going to be one of the best songs of the generation. ♪ hey, dude, don't make it bad. >> oh, my god, ed sheeran is adorable. >> he really was. i loved it. but danny, also, what are the

highlights? we won't blow it. but the songwriting sort of sing-off moment, too. ed sheeran plays this wonderful part in the movie. >> very touching as well. as well as being very funny. he's very funny and very, very touching. a very mature contribution from ed, really. sadly, ed wasn't our first choice. originally we asked chris martin to do it -- >> you did not. >> -- and he was too busy. >> wait, chris martin was too busy to do this? >> he just finished traveling with coldplay. he said, i can't leave the kids. >> i love how ed said, i won't charge you for this. >> you actually see it in the trailers with george, paul, john and ringo. there are also these random moments where you ask for something and it doesn't exist. there are certain things that didn't make it through that moment, and when you asked for a

certain soft drink on an airplane and the flight attendant stares at you. it's just wonderful moments. >> by the way, the flight attendant is ed sheeran's wife. >> oh, my gosh. >> in a way the story is about him, because he went from suffolk and became famous all around the world and then married a girl he knew from school. >> that's so nice. >> the big question, danny, is have you heard from paul? have you heard from ringo about this idea? >> i read something yesterday and he wrote back and said, the original title is "scrambled eggs," so that would be a better title. we got a message from ringo, barbara, george's widow, because we sent them the finished film. they were delighted by it. they gave permission for the premise, of course, because

they're very careful to make sure the beatles music isn't used inappropriately. it was very appropriate that they okayed this film rather than a film that sees them inappropriately. >> richard, the pitch. tell us about the pitch for this movie to get a green light. it's always a constant problem for filmmakers, getting the money to make the movie. tell me about the pitch process. >> actually the film was pitched to me, the idea. someone said, you know, i've got a script based on this, and i said, stop right there because i've been obsessed by the beatles now for 57 years, and i can't think of anything nicer than being able to cheat in my next film. when i run out of ideas, i can just put in "long and winding road." >> how did you select the music?

>> we tended to go for the high-profile ones, because the joke is often that he's sitting down in a room and all of a sudden he has access to "long and winding road." it was tricky. there are 174 masterpieces to choose from. >> talk about preparation for the movie and did you channel -- did you try to channel any one of the beatles? i know you were a george fan growing up. >> no, i didn't try to channel it. i think the aim was for it to be kind of through my own voice when playing the guitar. but what we decided early on was to get the authentic nature of the songs across in the movie. we wanted to make sure the movie was recorded live. we didn't dub anything. everything you see and hear me play is live. we spent about two months, two and a half months, made the

offices in london look like jack's bedroom. we spent time preparing these songs, getting them under my fingers instreumentinstrumental my voice ready. you can't be beholdin' to ten t originals in any way. then we asked danny, what do you think, do you want us to shorten them or add something else to them. we have a great version of the songs now which i'm really proud of, the way they sit in the movie. >> including your very frantic frustration of help. >> it takes the songs back to its origin because it was a cry of help. that's been forgotten in a way because it's so sing-alongable. the story is a very big low point for him and his own

personal love story is part of the film. so he sings to this crowd in golston where we made the film. we couldn't afford to pay for a big crowd. 6,428 people turned out for this concert and off he went with this punk rock version. it's a fantastic moment. >> it's such a wonderful movie. thank you guys so much. >> i like when the dad takes the sandwich. so funny, right? everyone was so good. the new movie is "yesterday" and it's in theaters this friday. himesh patel, danny boyle, frank curtis. thank you, everyone, for being on the show. we're honored. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. >> thank you, mika, thank you, joe. hi there. i am stephanie ruhle live from miami, florida. it is 9:00 a.m. on the east coast and there is so much to

get through today. special counsel robert mueller agrees to testify publicly in front of two house committees exactly three weeks from this morning. overnight the house voted to approve $4.5 billion in emergency funding in food and medical supplies to address the growing humanitarian crisis on the southern border. but we must start with the debate. that is why we're here in miami. just under 12 hours from now right behind me, the first 11 candidates will take the stage to make their pitch to the american people. one of those candidates we'll see tomorrow. mayor pete buttigieg will join me in just a moment for an exclusive interview, but i want to get first to msnbc's garrett haake who has been on the trail of these candidates since day one. here we are on the home stretch. how are the candidates spending their final hours? hopefully having a big breakfast. >> that's right, stephanie, the