tomorrow at 1:00 p.m. eastern with stephanie ruhle and 3:00 p.m. eastern. you can always find me on social media, twitter, facebook, snapchat and even linked-in. "deadline: white house" with nicolle wallace begins right now. hi, everyone, it's 4:00 in new york. at this hour in miami, florida, candidates gearing up for what can objectively be described as the heavyweight round of the democratic primary debate. four of the five candidates democrats are most enthusiastic about at this early point in the contest are getting ready to take the stage just a few hours from now. tonight's debate coming at a time when the country is faced with increasingly alarmed headlines about the conduct of the current president. the erratic nature of its decision making and lack of guardrails to impulse sievety. trump taking his turn on the world stage at the g20 summit,

choosing to spurn our allies. an incredible new allegation of rape is gaining momentum. a brave woman joining the list of 15 others to come out publicly and accuse trump of sexual misconduct. the task tonight then for ten democrats to offer an alternative to all of that. of tonight's front-runners, two, mayor pete buttigieg have been charged with their own. to many democratic voters, this feels out of proportion when compared to the conduct of the current president. the questions tonight, how large will trump loom over the democratic candidates hoping to take him on in 2020? and will democrats turn on their front-runner joe biden? those questions are where we start with some of our favorite reporters and friends. down in miami joined by msnbc correspondent garrett haake, who

was up late with me last night. that's an aexcuse ahead of time in case we with stumble over our words. and msnbc analyst john heilemann, always up with us late, white house communications director for president obama and hillary clinton's campaign, jason johnson is back from the root and tim miller is here, former communications director for the rnc, most recently communications director for jeb bush's 2016 campaign. garrett and jonathan, i start with the two of you. what is the mood heading into tonight where four of the five democrats who sit at this point in the early polls at the top of the rankings will be featured alongside one another? >> i think there's a little bit less anxiety in the air tonight than there was last night. all of these candidates competing tonight got a chance to watch last night's debate and see, a, how we as an organization conducted it and b, how the other candidates reacted to it. we've also got a little more experience on the debate stage.

biden and sanders at center stage have both debated in presidential debates extensively. outside of them the debate experience level falls off significantly. for example, one of the conversations i have been having with some of these campaign and advisers about what they saw last night is the moderators weren't pushing these candidates into conflict. if you want to fight, you've got to pick that fight yourself. if that still holds true tonight, and i'm certainly not privy to any of the questions or how we're setting this up, candidates are adjusting their strategies ever so slightly to be prepared for the fact if they want to mix it up, punch up or afraid somebody will be punching up at you, you know it's less likely to come from lester holt than someone like eric swalwell at the edges trying to make their moment. >> john heilemann, somebody who knows about punching up, down, sideways, written a few good books about it, what do you have to say? >> i believe you just called me punchy, nicolle. >> i think i'm the one that's

punchy. >> look, the point you made a little while ago, one of the most surprising things about last night's debate is so many people decided to put donald trump in play in the debate. as he was barely mentioned. i do not think it will be like that tonight for one reason and one reason only, the central question about tonight's debate is what do we see -- what happens around joe biden? he's the front-runner, the undisputed, ahead of everybody and been ahead of everybody since he got in the race. he's built his front-runnerhood on the basis of waging a general election campaign from the beginning. his whole campaign has been based on i'm the one best suited to take on donald trump. and on tonight's debate stage, there's no reason for joe biden to doing in but continue to prosecute that case. he doesn't want to fight with democrats below him. he wants to fight with the president and show people again and again he's the one who should take on donald trump in the fall of 2020. the question, therefore, as joe biden, i'm sure, tries to fly above the intra democratic

fighting that might break out here, the question is, if joe biden's flying up here, does he get pulled down to ground level either by one of the moderators or by one of his opponents or by a combination, where he gets a question from a moderator on one of these controversies he's been embroiled in, he tries to answer it and you one of the other democrats comes in and tries to t-bone him rhetorically in the course of the debate. that's the main thing we're looking for. joe biden is the front-runner but his front-runnerhood has not been tested. so how durable is it on the combat of the debate stage. >> john, you know this but when you're an incumbent, you want nothing more than for the challenger to make the contest a choice. you want to make it a choice between i might not be perfect but at least you know what you're getting. i'm better than curtain number two. if you're challenging an incumbent, it needs to be a referendum on the incumbent. >> yes. >> let me put up a graphic. these are the trump mentions last night.

amy klobuchar's at the top of the list but claire mccaskill reminded me last night she invoked trump's name not to contrast herself or any of the democrats with him necessarily but to talk about electability in trump districts. if you can't see this, tim ryan seven, jay inslee four. elizabeth warren front-runner at zero. i found that surprising for two reasons. one, democrats have a better chance of winning if they make the 2020 general election a referendum on donald trump and trumpism. and everything that's gone off the rails during his presidency. but they also -- elizabeth warren's rise in the polls happened at the same time she became one of the less most clear and strong and passionate voices calling for donald trump's impeachment. >> right. look, i agree with you, nicolle, in the sense i thought there would be more mention of donald trump given democrats love to hate the president and there's a lot of easy applause lines to be gotten by attacking him. i think it's most surprising in the context the implication of

what you said, it's most surprising elizabeth warren didn't do that work, given she was the clear front-runner on the stage last night, of last night's ten democrats. but i'm not that surprised that in the very first debate, not in the second one, third one, fourth one, in the very first one so many of the democrats last night who were largely unknown to a national audience, that they chose to decide to try to introduce themselves to the american people and avoid donald trump only because they have to like say hello before they can throw a punch. >> it's a good point, fair point. you're all nodding. >> we're so distracted by heilemann's super retro microphone. >> can i tell you, heilemann is like clark kent. i love it, with the microphone. >> he's like wow. like the '80s. >> i love it. >> i think warren sort of set the tone for the debate. i think she wanted to establish that she is the best, and by the way i think she is the best at

this, at having a unified message of her argument and her solution and being able to leave it in a very easily understandable way. so i think the others probably keyed off of that. but you saw like when de blasio brought him up as the greatest geo political threat, he got a big applause. >> inslee -- >> yeah. >> de blasio said russia. >> oh, right, he did say russia. >> another good answer. >> but tonight you have biden, who that is his whole theory of his race but senator harris, who thinks she's the best prosecutor in the case against donald trump and also kirsten gillibrand, who her theory is brave wins and a woman is the right person to replace him. i think you're going to see those two, who are new to the national scene, try to make their mark going after him. >> do you think kristen

gillibrand will use this latest allegation and meghan from "the new york times" will join us later but today two women corroborating jean carroll's account of rape from donald trump, do you think she will carve that out tonight? >> i think she has to. it's a moral issue. >> she took all of the wiater o. >> exactly. there's a strategic argument to be made our president is morally unfit for the job. i think tonight there's an opportunity to talk about trump and not make it about him but what he isn't and what you don't want this country to be. kristen gillibrand is probably the first person to do it. you know joe biden will jump in on that. >> and kamala harris. >> senator harris as well. a lot of people will have opportunities. what i will be looking at and it's the same thing we saw with elizabeth warren. elizabeth warren said i know i'm already winning so i will let you guys fight. she couldn't lose anything last

night so she let beto and castro and cory do what they needed to do. if joe biden can do that tonight, that's his most success. strategy. no one to punch up, kick, let down, whatever. hey, i'm joe, i'm not as much of a scumbag as the president of the united states and you should vote for me. >> a long way from hope and change. >> that is so obvious, i'm confused why we all agree that this conventional wisdom has congealed among democrats in the debate the best way to go after trump is on issues. best way to win this primary is demonstrate who's the most true progressive, who can fire up the base the best and for me it seems like a simple equation. president obama is personally popular. president obama's style of liberalism is popular in the country and especially in the party. pugh showed it as the most popular type of ideology in the party. and donald trump is not popular. yet last night nobody really

talked about carrying the obama mantel and nobody make the moral case against trump. if biden was the only one to do that, it seems like 21 people are giving him this massive lane to run in and i'm confused why that happened. >> let me bring garrett back in to talk about the campaign strategies. maybe there's a clarity coming from the other side of the aisle -- >> or lack of clarity. >> there are physics involved here. i mean obama won resoundingly twice. i worked on one of the campaigns against him, not just by having the policies that animated and excited his base in growing that democratic coalition but reaching a lot of people in the middle and even on the right, why didn't we hear much obamaism last night? >> i was right we didn't hear president obama's name invoked i don't think at all but to tim's point why biden is the only person drawing the contrast is he's the only one who can.

imagine if you're at home on your couch watching this with a beer, the bar is so high for these candidates to introduce themselves. you might remember that casual looking white guy at the far end made a good line about trump but if you don't know who these folks are, it's that much harder to introduce why areself. i think that's why you're seeing this manufactured moment at the expense of candidates to get the name idea. i think we're like three steps ahead of where the general electorate here is how the democrats will prosecute the case against trump, even for those we feel are known like kamala harris and mayor pete buttigieg who are in the high for a greater degree. for the average voter, to most of the millions of people who tuned in last night, they are not following this that closely. they still have to give some baseline of credibility to these candidates before they can prosecute that case against trump. >> heilemann, you made a great point this hour yesterday about this middle range of candidates having the most on the line. and true to your prediction, that's where all of the action

was. just your thoughts about last night and not who's up and who's down, it drives me berserk if we get horse racy about this. it will be forever before we vote. but who has the ride today in momentum or story? >> i got one thing right about a candidate with familiarity with the immigration issue and could grain grou gain ground on it. i thought it might be beto o'rouke. decidingly not beto o'rouke, in fact he seemed to have lost ground by not knowing what he was talking about to julian castro. who came from the middle of the pack combust tbut the lower tie pack and performed with strength and agility, that was castro last night.

the other people you hear, and i subjectively think about who the candidates are. corey book cere walk wk-- cory booker is walking with a spring in his step today. elizabeth warren's campaign walking with a spring in their step thinking they did very well. one other guy and the most polarizing person on the staple last night but there's no doubt he's high as a kite today and that's bill de blasio who went in, annoyed the hell out of a lot of people and yet at the same time if your brand of liberalism is loud and ruckus and sometimes overbearing, he made an impression for a guy who was known not very well outside of new york city, he's a guy who introduced himself to millions of liberals last night as a guy who wants to throw a bunch of punches. >> as the loud talker, if you will. i want to swerve back to tonight and take john's frame, and i think his prediction yesterday that some of the most dramatic

action would be in the middle. joe biden's dominance over the field at this point, at this early point, is so significant that it is probably a fair frame to lay over this night as well, that some of the highest stakes are in the middle. what would you predict for that middle range? >> the people who are struggling. >> not struggling but right below. bernie -- and to tim's point, berne y bernie's right there running against nothing that resembles obamaism either. outside of biden and bernie, where do you think the action or struggle will be? >> i think that -- first of all, bernie could lash out, right. it's sort of -- >> isn't that what he does every day? >> that's what he does every day but we haven't talked about that. i don't know if biden has any use in doing that. biden needs to appear steady and stable and take on trump and that's what he needs to do. sanders just in his normal being is a pretty aggressive guy and

he's obviously very uneasy about elizabeth warren. i can see that. i'm interested in what he would do. and kirsten gillibrand is a fierce fighter. i don't know if she would take on biden. a week ago that seemed like a brave thing to do but now it would be seen an piling on. but i think she can be tough. i think hickenlooper is a pretty feisty guy. i can see him going after biden or bernie. >> is he feisty? >> he can be. >> i would say this, the smartest threat going into tomorrow is the castro strategy -- tonight, the castro strategy. find the person, look at your internals and say if this person falls out of the race and they drop, are their supporters going to go to me? castro just said i'm going to win the battle of texas and took out beto o'rouke on immigration,

an issue beto used to say this is my main area. if i'm kamala harris, i'm going after pete buttigieg on issues of criminal justice right now. he's weakened. i think this is an opportunity for her to say look, as an ag, this is how you deal with police violence issues. this is how you deal with concerns on the part of voters and this is what the responsibility looks like when you have to answer these questions on a regular basis. i think that's a smart move. >> she will not do that. this is her opportunity to show america who she is. they've heard a lot about her. they haven't quite seen her or seen her speak this way. kamala harris wants to present the best version of kamala harris and to introduce yourself by going after a nice guy like mayor pete i think is a really risky thing to do. >> it could benefit somebody else, but that will not help kamala harris. that will help somebody else. >> you can do both though. i don't think people think that pete is that nice anymore, to be

honest. >> you have any reporting on these topics? >> i was nodding along to mayor pete maybe having a target on his back, for that reason, the criminal justice issue but if you're kamala harris or eric swalwell looking to be the young next generation candidate, he may be the person between you and the mantel. and if you're one of the candidates looking up at elizabeth warren, elizabeth warren is a harder target to hit. she's been in the game longer. she's tighter on other issues and she's female. beto o'rouke, the next person down, is not as tight on his issues. if you watched his tape, he's not an aggressive debater and he's male. if you look at the stage tonight, we have two people in the dead center with a ton of experience doing this and the next couple people down you might be looking to try to score points off of if you're one of the lower tier candidates could very well be mayor pete. he does not have much experience in this arena. he's had a bit of a rough week if you want to try to score easy points and he elevate yourself, is he not the guy you target? >> i look at 2016, where we had

a big front-runner and we went to the first six debates and all of the people in the middle ground attacked each other and nobody attacks the big front-runner that much. it doesn't seem like a smart strategy overall. that was kind of a mutual death society strategy in the 2016 campaign. if i'm a democrat in the middle tier, i'm looking at biden. i'm looking at bernie. i'm picking an issue popular with the party. both of those guys have vulnerabilities on issues that are broadly popular with the base and demonstrating contrast with trump. i don't know about picking on mayor pete. i don't know how much that gets you. >> heilemann, your punishment for being right about so many things yesterday, you get the last word on framing my thoughts and brain as we head into tonight. >> i don't want to make predictions but i will say this, jason made the point about what happened last night with castro and o'rourke. there's one other salient fact about that, beto o'rouke had

been losing altitude for weeks come nook this debate. the pressure was on him to try to resuscitate his campaign and because he was losing altitude, he was a prime target. who's been losing altitude on this debate stage tonight? one of those people is bernie sanders, which is why this debate is big for bernie sanders and why he might be a target. another has been pete buttigieg. i would say pete is a nice guy but i agree with those who think because of the troubles he's had with some core constituencies over the last week that he might come under some fire. i also think that if you think about where bernie is vulnerable to, certain candidates on the stage, let's look here to michael bennet. let's look to john hickenlooper, the capitalist attacking the socialist. trying to make the argument the bernie sanders version of the democratic party is too far left. i'm not saying i think that will necessarily be an effective strategy, it might or might not. but if you're michael bennet or john hickenlooper looking for a way in tonight, is not bernie

sanders a very clear target of opportunity for you? i would look out for that possibility. >> good chance of winning over tim and nicolle. >> and there are a minivan full of people like us. don't take the bait. garrett and john heilemann, i might track you guys down later. i will be here all night long. thank you for spending time with us. after the break, two women come forward to back up a sexual assault allegation against the president. they spoke exclusively to our next guest. we will bring you the disturbing details that track almost exactly with the president's own words about his treatment of women. >> also ahead, it's a long wye from the oscars jacket he once were. the president's campaign chairman now a convicted felon. the latest on paul manafort's mounting legal woes. this is the ocean.

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the graphic and disturbing account of sexual assault against writer e. jean carroll has been confirmed by two contemporaneous witnesses to the account. who friends of carroll who she confided in at the time of the alleged attack from donald trump at bergdorf goodmans. she spoke exclusively to the times podcast. >> and i said, what he raped

you? and i said, he pulled down my tights. he pulled down my tights. >> and lisa was emphatic, what you're describing is a rape and you should do to police. >> it was horrible we thought. and i said let's go to the police. no. come to my house. no, i want to go home. i'll take you to the police. no. it was 15 minutes of my life, it's over. don't ever tell anybody. i just had to tell you. >> e. jean i think at this point started laughing was not seeing this within a criminal framework. >> it was an episode, it was an action, a fight, not a crime. it was i had a struggle with a guy. >> you felt you encouraged it probably. >> oh, yeah, i know i did. i know i did. oh, advise you, lingerie, great.

it was getting better and better. >> so you felt responsibility for what had happened? >> 100%. >> the president denied carroll's allegations saying that e. jean carroll isn't his type. joining us now, meghan tuohy, investigative reporter for "the new york times." you have done such a service with this reporting and today's daily. i read most of the book. i saw most of e. jean's appearances and there's something, there's no stereotypical way to be a victim of sexual assault or rape as her friend describes this account. but there's something that you uncover in these interviews that is so personal to her. she doesn't want to call it a rape that makes the account confusing to the reader. just take us through what e. jean described to you, what that attack sounded like to you and what her friends, the impact of her friends who corroborated

hearing this account at the time. >> first of all, i don't think you're alone. i think there has been people who since this story, since this account first emerged last friday have been a little confused and not sure what to make of it. most of the women who came out with allegations against donald trump did so during the presidential race in 2016. they wanted to help inform the public, inform voters. that's not the case here with e. jean. this is -- this is an account among many that are in this book that is going to be coming out july 2, this tuesday. she said she didn't want to speak up during the presidential race, as she tells it, she has not spoken about this alleged attack since it happened in the mid-'90s. but what happened mid-2017 she decided, she's a long-term advice columnist for "elle" magazine and she decided she was going to -- after getting countless messages for readers over the years which always seem to come back to the problem of men, she decided she would head

out on the road gone to towns named after women and get out of her car and talk to people about -- she was going to ask the women, why do we need men? i have been listening to complaints for so many years, why do we need men? what's the case for men? what happened when she was on the road trip the harvey weinstein story breaks. she said by day she was interviewing people. by night she was getting flooded with messages from "elle" readers and others seeking her advice because they were having their own reckonings about sexual assault and harassment and she for the first time in her life said i need to have my own personal recking about this so she sat down and started to make a list of hideous men she encountered, going back to boys in childhood she attributed bad behavior and including donald trump. that gets enfolded in this book. this is not a big tell-all. she did not get a lot of money for this book. yet this book is coming out.

there was an excerpt that came out in "new york" magazine. this allegation of an encounter with trump in the mid-'90s at bergdorf's, where they sort of bumped into each other and had a playful banter that led to the lingerie change room at which point he pushed her up against the wall and pulled down her tights and penetrated her, she fought back and fled the room and when she was outside picked up the phone and called one of two friends. >> and within a few days told a second friend. you interviewed both of them. as somebody who covers weinstein -- >> yes. >> we're glad you back. what is the impact of someone who could corroborate an account at the time? >> once again, she comes out with her account of what happened and an excerpt of this book that will be coming out and one of the things that was not clear, i mean she says there weren't any witnesses, there's no hard evidence that there's really a he said/she said and

trump's claiming she's never met her, that this didn't happen. she's not his type, which is one of his comment responses in the face of these allegations, and so what you're doing as reporters, you know, i have reported on these types of stories is you're looking, okay, did you tell anybody else at the time? were there any people to whom you reported this, whether it was the authorities or friends or family? and if so, we got to talk to them. so these two women are included as corroborators, unnamed corroborators in the book and had been doing that on the phone to reporters who been covering the story but over the past week i and my colleagues at "the new york times" really pressed forward with the case saying it's very important for you to come out with your own names and recall your recollections of what happened when you received these reports of this alleged attack. and that's what happened yesterday in the sit-down interview with two of the women. >> part of the reason you might have been in that situation, and we were in that situation as well, in the way she talked about it -- again, there's no

right way to talk about being a victim of sexual assault, but i wonder, your paper became part of the story by putting out a statement saying we haven't yet been able to corroborate the account e. jean offers. you went out and dp thid that reporting, which you did today. do you have what you view as a account of sexual assault? >> i think there are a lot of ways to assess the credibility of the accusation. you have two friends, all long-term professional women in new york. they were in the media circles in new york in the sort of heyday of new york media. >> it's my favorite part of the daily is listening to the three of them talk of -- they were trail blazers in every way, women in media. they were so proud. and it's not unrelated to e. jean's unwillingness to describe herself as a rape victim. >> that's right. i think there are many women in the me too era who had

especially in the last year and a half came out and said i'm a survivor of sexual assault, i'm a survivor of rain. she does not frame herself that way. she says at the time of the attack she felt like it was her fault, she made the mistake of going into this dressing room with him, they were kind of playfully challenging the other person to try ton lounge way and while her attitudes had shifted, she no longer blames herself today. she's still reluctant to frame this as rape, which is something else people found confusing. if you look at the details that she describes of her encounter with trump and this dressing room, forced penetration without consent, that is rape and that's the most serious allegation of sexual misconduct against the president to date. and yet she does not -- she will not call it a rape. she says it was a fight and i don't want to be painted -- i don't want to be categorized as a victim and damaged goods and this is one among many stories i

have included in my book. >> i don't want to gloss over this. i think what you said is so central to this story. what she describes, the act, regardless of what she wants to call it, every criminal code describes what happened to her as a rape. she gives an answer for why she didn't tell her story during the campaign. >> so she says -- this is the question, i think that there's -- listen, you may have decided -- and these conversations, the first friend she called said this is a rape, you should go to the police, she said no, i'm not doing that and please, you don't tell anybody. i had to tell one friend. then she tells another friend who says listen, i think it's probably best to keep this quiet, trump is pretty powerful. so she kept quiet. you can understand that. but one of my favorite questions is why didn't you speak out during the 2016 race? all of these other women were coming out, the "access hollywood" tape. she said she felt the women that were coming out, the way that played out was actually helping

donald trump. it was at least among some of his supporters making him look strong and commanding and she didn't feel like she was going to make anything better by wading into the public debate at the time. >> it's an appalling concept but the fact he won suggests she's not all wrong in her analysis of human nature. it's an extraordinary episode of the daily. everyone should do listen to it. you have more reporting coming out. >> i have two colleagues, alexandra alter and jessica bennett. we've been doing reporting on this allegation and there will be more reporting soon. >> we're glad you're back. thank you for spending some time with us. we're grateful. when we come back, donald trump traveled halfway around the world to the g20 summit but his thoughts were on the democratic primary contest to replace him. we will dip into the president's latest turn on the stage,

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. you all know what they say, you can take the mob-like actors out of the president's orbit but you cannot take the president out of his mob-lime comfort zone. former campaign chairman paul manafort was in court facing allegations of fraud. these were likely on the tv set for a few of the attendees at the g20 summit with leaders preparing to meet with donald trump. it's not like trump didn't have his work cut out for him already. there's nothing like coming back from the brink of nuclear war with iran to remind you just how much the united states needs these allies these days. last week was a wake-up call and since then doubts about america's credibility and the president's judgment have persisted. in that regard the g20 summit arrived at the perfect time, a chance for trump to reassure

allies face to face, right? instead it seems like he decided to go in a different direction, attacking other country's geopolitical allies ahead of the summit specifically germany, india and host country japan. three countries whose leaders trump will meet on friday but he will also be meeting with vladimir putin tomorrow. so far no tough talk directed at him. same thing goes for mohammad bin salman of saudi arabia, the leader of the united nations accused of likely orchestrating the brutal murder of journalist jamal khashoggi. trump has a breakfast set with him saturday. isn't that special? ashley parker from "the washington post" joins us. ashley, your paper doing bang-up reporting about yet another turn on the world stage where allies get the warm shoulder and our adversaries get the warm fuzzies. >> yes, at this point it is still surprising when we sort of

see his comments and hinz sults before he lands, but it shouldn't be. as we've seen time and time depend, you mentioned it would be a perfect opportunity for the president to reassure our allies but that is never what the president does. the president does the exact opposite. and then someone like vice president pence or secretary -- former secretary of state rex till tillerson is sent over to be the chief and that prompts the president's ire. but if you take the president's general rules of behavior and apply them on the world stage, we talked about how the president admires dictators strong men, even within his own aides and peer group, he almost seems to resent people or look down at people who seem to need something from him or want something. he demands absolute loyalty but when people provide it, he sort of sneers at them. so allies are people who need

something and want something from the united states. they want to work with us. you see him not really respecting that. but people like xi and putin and the saudi leader, he's more than happy to sort of be not as critical of them as just about everyone in the world would like to see him be. >> ashley, there's also some reporting about his enthusiasm to reset relations with putin post mueller. what do you know about that? >> i think in general the president is very reticent to criticize putin and russia, and it's worth noting there's actually some real disagreement that even trump himself has noted between our country and russia. but because of mueller, because of that report, because it gets to sort of his key insecurity and vulnerability, which is again the legitimacy of his election, there's sort of this barrier he can't cross where he feels like if he confronts putin on iran or the ukraine, it

somehow gives legitimacy to his critics who say russia helped him win and steal the election. so it will be interesting to see what does he but if past is any indicator, he's much more likely to be more flattering, more fonding with putin and i take his word, he did nothing wrong and i'm inclined to believe him. >> jen, i'm inclined to believe everything ashley parker said. let me play trump on his meeting with putin. >> i'll have a very good conversation with him. what i said to him is none of your business. go ahead. >> what i say to vladimir putin is none of your business but i'm going to live tweet everything else i do. >> ashley had a good point about the disdain he holds for people who need something from him but putin -- trump needs him. i think this is one consistent

thing in his candidacy and presidency, he will always back putin up. i think we tend to overthink why that is, i think putin has something on him and he needs putin to protect him. every time from the campaign where he was on nato and every presidential nominee ever had to helsinki to this day he tells the american people none of their business to what he has to say to a semi hostile power and great world power is none of our business and that's fine. >> at some point we have to admit these countries are not our allies anymore. alliship is built on a personal trust relationship with the president of the united states. he's ended our allied relationship with many of the western powers. they don't trust us. we have known for over a year they don't want to share security information because they feel like he will leak it. he has a hostile relationship with trudeau. how can you mad at trudeau?

at the end of the day we don't have allies anymore. even the nations -- >> mbs is our ally. they have a great relationship. >> they're not really allies anymore. these are people who basically give him a fantasy version of what he wants to be and that's the real danger we have to look at. we're a country without allies. we have frenemies now. frenemies will not help you if you get attacked. >> getting back to the debate tonight, this is an opportunity where a democrat can show strength. it's this warped view of the world where trump things it's strong to suck up to the murderers and despots and tough guys. for some reason trump thinks that makes him strong if he's the portal for putin and mbs but if he's mean to justin trudeau, he thinks that makes him strong. there's a way to contrast that saying that demonstrates your

weakness that you're not strong enough to say no to a situational ally like mbs when he murders a journalist that writes for a paper in this country. you're not strong enough to stand up to putin even when he was willing to act in your narrow interests during the election. we didn't see any of that last night and i think connected to these meetings today, it's a good opportunity. >> ashley, the president was -- i don't think it was counsel but there were hopes and aspirations he wouldn't do too much tweeting about the democratic debate. that lasted about 26 minutes when he tweeted from aboard air force one, i imagine his color commentary, any thoughts about how distracted he is by the democratic primaries sort of beginning officially with these two nights of debates? >> it's worth noting he sent a few tweets but i think if you hold him to his own standard, he was pretty restrained for himself. it's definitely -- if you hold

him to the trump standard, he was restrained. >> he did not tweet as often as he does to "fox & friends," on this you are statistically accurate. >> i was expecting way worse, i have to say. i thought he was restrained too. >> look, he's following this incredibly closely. this is what the president does. he watches tv. he loves an opponent. he now has 20 of them. and talking to people after last night's debate, the campaign and people in his orbit because of the way the two stages were randomly chosen are more interested in tonight. last night sort of didn't make them worry about anyone new. so the key people in his mind are vice president biden and elizabeth warren, and one thing that was interesting -- and last night's debate, they're still worried warren. they think she can be compelling but they think if she's the nominee she will emerge pretty

badly damaged by the field shift to the left. but one thing that's worth mentioning briefly is they got more worried about elizabeth warren when tucker carlson on fox news, which the president watches, he did a segment where he praised warren's economic policies and that coincided with a rise in the public polls for her and that was one of the things that kind of made the campaign wake up and take notice and start to get a little nervous about her. >> ashley parker, we love when you join us. thank you for spending some time with us. when we come back, a strange sight after last night's debate. those of us who spent any time working in candidates, top-tier candidates each and every one in the spin room spinning for themselves. what that means about the brave, new political world we're living in. in it's cedar plank seafood time

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>> are you feeling like you had a win tonight? >> i'd give myself an a. >> i think it went really well. >> who needs surrogates when we used to work in politics to spin a debate performance when you can go out and do it yourself. most of the democrats have spent last night raining themselves. and jen, jason, and tim are here. look, this is something that i think trump helped usher in, like, why have flax if you can just live-tweet yourself. more of the candidate, more access? >> better for the press. i think the reason why you don't want to do it is because -- >> oh, i know. i worked for sarah palin. i know why you don't want to do it. >> but for the viewers, you want to leave the debate stage. elizabeth warren and julian castro, and you don't want to give the press -- you want to force the press to use the footage that you want them to use which is the debate.

so if you put them in the spin room, they are going to use that footage instead because it's their own footage. but the problem is if, you know, one candidate goes, then all the candidates have to go because otherwise then you're like hillary and you're like being elitest and you've got to get in the scrum and do it. i think doing the television appearances afterwards is a good idea. it lets you frame what happened in the debate and, like, put a stamp on it. but the, like, and, you know, it's not very dignified these scrums. >> you got 22 candidates, you've got to do it. >> i agree. >> so we should explain what happens. people like us walk in, and someone has a tall sign with our name on it, and it's like your worst nightmare from third grade dodgeball of not getting picked. you sort of have this feeling of i don't want anyone to talk to me. >> all the big reporters are interviewing trump, and i've got like the finish guy and one guy from "buzz feed."

>> for me, the more accessible people can be the better. like, icon forecast. so last week i was fish fry. everybody said in the past it used to be this thing in south carolina where the candidates with do that and talk to regular people. now since there was 20, they don't have that access. i am glad to see the added debate. people are getting out there, and they are mixing it up. >> regular people access is important with you. the press gets enough -- i mean, look, the spinning is done already on twitter. like, they get off the stage and the spinning is already over. so going into a spin room to talk about how well you did seems pretty silly at this point. we are going to have 18 of these debates. i think maybe we should let them stand for itself. >> it shows you are willing to get in the mix, and that's what's important for the canneds. >> so all ten were in the spin room last night, and they all sat with our own chris matthews, and it was great.

>> so any news made? >> well, beto and castro sort of attacked each other in the post. >> that was a bad idea for both of them. i thought castro should've left it alone. >> i thought so too. but there is already some reporting that tonight of the ten, nine are expected. and guess who is not expected? >> joe. >> is that a mistake? >> no. >> it's not going to have any impact on him. he is still going to be the frontrunner. >> kate beddingfield is his instructor, she's got a lot of hard calls to make, and she is totally right. if you put him in the spin room, nothing to be gained and there is riz and, like, don't do it, and he's not going to lose his status as frontrunner. >> the only risk is by leak out there that he might not if he has a debate and has to go into the spin room, you are kind of showing your cards that you know things didn't go well. >> because he is still joe biden. he does have a certain amount of

testi teflon. he should be fine regardless. i don't think he is going to have to go into the room. >> and i think he is going to be more likely to go into the spinning room if he is more likely to have a good debate. >> depends on how bad, i guess. >> all right. we are going to sneak in our very last break. don't go anywhere. we will be right back. t break. don't go anywhere. we will be right back. i switched to liberty mutual, because they let me customize my insurance. and as a fitness junkie, i customize everything, like my bike, and my calves. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance,

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watching. that does it for this hour. i'm nicolle wallace, but i am going to be back tonight, like, forever. i think six hours, not just me, all the fun friends you like, round two of the debates here on msnbc. but first "mtp daily" with my friend chuck todd starts right now. ♪ if it's thursday, it's meet the press daily coming to you live from the arch center for the performing arts and the heart of beautiful miami, florida. a little hot, are i'll admit. once again we are here in the debate spin room. we've got hot air in here. and once again queue the election music. ♪ don't tell me you're tired of it already. i'm not. i can't wait. it feels