one programing note. we have a new podcast series called "uncorked." you can find it wherever you get your podcasts. it's free. and it has some deeper conversations beyond what we can fit into the hour. the latest one is about george packer, wherever you get your podcasts. thanks for watching "the beat." "hardball" is up next. tanks to trump. seriously. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. we're going to have tanks. with those words president trump has previewed his plans for this year's fourth of july. the president was inspired by what he saw in france's bastille day two years ago. but the president's vision bears a closer resemblance to a chest-thumping put on by his

counterpart china. holding parades in red square. the same kind of heat tracks that his soviet predecessors used as propaganda during the cold war, all choreographed to project military might, even as they fought a losing battle with the world of ideas. and as those dictators would observe the proceedings while flanked by their top military brass, president trump now intends to do the same. according to "the new york times," mr. trump has requested that the joint chiefs of staff, all of them, from the army, navy, air force and marines stand next to him as aircraft from each of their services fly overhead. and by the way, as we speak, the pentagon is delivering on trump's plan to showcase the country's military hardware, tanks, and other combat vehicles arrived in washington, d.c. by train last night. it is unclear how they'll be transported to the national mall. that's because each of these vehicles weighs more than 60

tons, according to "times" and washington's roads and bridges may not be sturdy enough to support their weight. >> it's a salute to america, and i'm going to be here, and i'm going to say a few words, and we're going have planes going overhead, the best fighter jets in the world, and other planes too. and we're going to have some tanks stationed outside. got to be pretty careful with the tanks because the roads have a tendency not to like to carry heavy tanks, so we have to put them in certain areas. and we have some incredible equipment, military equipment on display, brand-new. and we're very proud of it. you know, we're making a lot of new tanks right now. we're building a lot of new tanks. >> well, construction is already under way at the site where the president plans to deliver his remarks in front of the lincoln memorial. and while the event has been dubbed "a salute to america," the festivities appear to center around trump himself. "the washington post" reports

that traditionally major gatherings on the mall have featured a designated event producer. but in this case, the producer is the president himself. nbc news also reports that the republican national committee is giving out vip tickets, some of which went to top donors that included perks such as better standing area and even seating. i'm joined right now by yamiche alcindor, jeremy bash is former chief of staff at the department of defense, and charlie sykes is editor and chief. charlie, i see you grimacing appropriately, this is not what we normally think of a display of our values, rather the values of power, of might making right, of dictatorships in so many cases historically. >> well, that's true, but i'm also struck by the tacky narcissism of it and how thoroughly annoying it is that the president of the needs to take over what was one of my favorite holidays where we

celebrated being american. it was not a partisan event. it was not a political event. it with us not about one man. and yet donald trump cannot resist making everything about himself. yes, the symbolism is disturbing, but i think it's just the obnoxiousness of politicizing and militarizing this really -- one of our nicer, more unified national holidays. >> do you think they'll play "hail to the chief" when he arrives? >> probably, sure. they will stage manage this. sure. look, this is like a -- this is like a trump reelection kickoff. here is a man who wants to make his campaign, his image all about patriotism. he is the guy that hugs the flag. he is the guy that wants all of the trappings of american might. remember make america great again. but the way in which he was clearly influenced by his foreign dictator buddies is i think more of a sign of his

neediness and his insecurity. and there is a certain silliness about this as well as obnoxiousness. >> let's try to figure that out. yamiche, dictators like the head of the soviet union, the political party the communists, would do it i assume to keep the republics in line by showing how much power moscow had, any time they needed to send them to the east bloc, to happy hungary under control, to keep poland under control. they had use for the trumps. who is trump talking to with this display of military power? who is he talking to? >> even though the white house says it isn't a political event, it sounds like he is talking to is his base and the people who want to support him. this is of course inherently political. the president constantly is making political conversations, making political statements. he obviously kicked off his campaign during the inaugural address. so it's the person really trying to show look at all the mighty

things i have. i think when you're talking about yesterday, when he was talking about his comments and the tanks, he said well, remember, before i got elected, people wanted to close down the tank factories in ohio. i'm the one who kept them open. that was an inherently political decision, saying if i wasn't president, we might not have all these tanks. >> you know, the fourth of july is about -- gary wills deserves the credit for it. he wrote how lincoln brought us back through his words at gettysburg and the declaration and the fourth of july. not to the constitution, but to the conversation we had as a country about democracy, and all men are created equal, the very values of our country. it was not about defeating the brits, but was about declaring our values on the fourth of july. that's what we did in philadelphia. what do tanks have to do with it? >> nothing. this is nauseating, chris. this is not just obnoxious tackiness, this is actually dangerous. it's fundamentally unamerican. it politicizes a nonpartisan

celebration of we the people of our declaration of independence, and it also misunderstands the fundamental nature of our military might. our military is not strong because of the weight of our armor or because of the speed of our fighter jets. it's because of the professionalism and skill of our service members who sacrifice everything for our freedom. that's what we should be honoring on july 4th. not displace of military might. >> you see all this on -- you're in greece. your in poland, in angola. you're in anywhere in the world. you're in thailand. when you see this, because it will probably make the rounds, this big show of force, what do they say to each other when they watch it? >> i think they say america has never done this before. something must be significantly wrong. why are they trying to overcompensate for what, some inherent weakness? their inability to affect world events by showing this military might? clearly donald trump wants to transmit a message of his strength because he perceives himself as being seen as weak around the world, which he is.

>> he did run on this idea that he didn't want to send working class men and women into war, this idea that he wasn't going to be hawkish. he painted hillary clinton as the person who was going to send your children off to some country that you wouldn't even know about it. so what you have is the president both wanting to show military might while also still capturing this idea that he is not going to send anyone to war, and that's why i think in some ways it's a political decision, because he is saying i'm the law and order president. i'm the person that is going to celebrate our military. but remember, listen carefully, i'm going to be very careful about how i use this military might. >> kim jong-un has been doing this stuff for years. his grandparents, his father did it too. it didn't impress the rest of the world. we knew it was lousy country that had done nothing right. their people were starving and the leaders were living well. our great military leaders are thrilled to be doing this and showing to the american people among other things the strongest and most advanced military anywhere in the world. the "new york times" reports the top military officials have expressed deep concern about letting the armed forces be used by the president to advance a

political agenda. they have long been reluctant to parade tanks, missiles and other weapons through the nation's capital like the authoritarian leaders of north korea and china. charlie, let me ask about military morale. i don't know what it's like. they must all be talking in the bunk houses and the barracks. what is this about? a lot of them will have to show up on the fourth of july to be part of this exhibition. >> yeah, my understanding is that most people in the military hate being used as props. they don't like parades. i mean, it's one thing to honor the military. it's another thing to sort of use them as -- for staging for president. but there is no question about it, this is a president who has strong man envy, and has this mixed feeling about the military. yamiche is right. he keeps promising not to use them but he loves the flexing of the muscle. you asked how does the rest of the world view this? they already knew america was

strong. we didn't have to show them our planes or tanks. they know who we are. what i think they want to know is america is already great, but it is good? is it stable? is it reliable? and donald trump with his out-of-control me, me, me narcissism is not reassuring in that respect. >> well, here is what trump adviser kellyanne conway told reporters when asked the republican national committee is giving out tickets to a supposedly nonpartisan event that's otherwise open to the general public. >> why is the republican committee giving out tickets to supporters of the president? >> this is a public event. it's open to the public. the public is welcome to come and celebrate our great country, the greatest democracy, the constitution, all the amendments, not just the first amendment that seems to interest you only. the second amendment, all the others, but really just the birth of this country, the greatest democracy that ever lived. i'm not going to allow you to politicize it.

>> well, she didn't answer the question. >> no she did not. >> why is he selling vip tickets to the donor class of the republican party if this is a national celebration. >> she didn't answer the question. we know from my reporting and other reporting the rnc has meshed with the trump campaign. they are now functioning as one big train, trying to get president trump re-elected. there is really no way to say why is the rnc giving out these vip tickets. >> why are they giving them to their fat cats? >> obviously it's because in some ways it's because they want people to be rewarded for supporting president trump, which is inherently political, which is why i think you don't see a defense from the white house on this. >> well, they're fluffing their big contributors. an extra perk, give me another $100,000. >> the reason is because they have no shame. they have no shame in actually undermining something sacred in our country which is a celebration of our independence. what gals me and probably galls other people in the pentagon is this is faux militarism. when it counts, when it comes to conducting joint exercise on the

korean peninsula, donald trump, unilaterally without consulting the secretary of defense or the joint chairman of chiefs actually yanked away those military exercises. with respect to the greatest military alliance we have in the world, the nato alliance, donald trump has undermined it at every turn. this is complete false support for the military. >> while it's unclear how much the event could cost, it could cost a hell of a lot, "the washington post" reports the cost of a military parade trump had planned for last year was about $92 million. however, that parade was scuttled after the potential costs became public. there are going to be problems, charlie. there is going to be problems with the washington infrastructure. there are tunnels all through this city we're on right now. there are trains running beneath us. we have a sort of vacuum under the lincoln memorial of land down there. there is an opening down there. land can shift. there is all kinds of questions when they built the african american here about the water table underneath. you run 60-ton tanks across that, we don't know what's going to happen. >> and none of it matters to

donald trump. he just wants his party. he wants it to be focused on himself, because, what, july 4th was not good enough before donald trump made it about himself. so all the questions you're asking i'm sure have been raised throughout the government, and at some point all of the proxy from the top down, he wants his parade. we're going have to give him his parade. whatever the damage is, it doesn't matter. he doesn't care. >> i just want to have everybody's thoughts. it seems to me that the declaration of independence is really about those amazing words, "all men are created equal," which of course translates today to all people are created equal. and that was the great gold standard that set us off in the right direction, at least we started off with a goal. we started off with an ideal. and this day the declaration of independence, the fourth of july is about that ideal and trying to live up to it. and i -- does anybody have a final thought? i just think this -- the trouble

is like saluting. reagan started that. civilian leaders shouldn't have to take military leaders. they take orders from the civilians. that's how our government works. reagan started. a very nice salute he earned in hollywood. now all the presidents since then have been saluting since then. why are they saluting? they're not in the ranks. they're not in the chain of command. they're the boss because they were elected, not because they worked their way up the militariment your thoughts. you were there. >> as i've seen it, senior military officials salutes the president. >> he returns salute. that doesn't bother me. and the blue angels don't bother me. what bothers me are tanks in the streets of washington, selling tickets to the national committee and making the entire party about faux militarism. >> my problem is donald trump is going to start a standard here, a precedent. help me here, charlie. i think it's a precedent. the next democratic elected president probably will be a democrat in 2020 or 2024.

he'll come in there and he or she will have to do this where everybody will say oh, you moved the winston churchill bust. what's the matter with you? you don't want to be celebrating our republic's founds? you don't want to be a good patriot? you know how it's going to sell. this is the start of something awful. your thoughts. >> charlie. >> i think we'll look back on it as one of the embarrassments of the trump years. what this really shows is at bottom, donald trump does not understand the idea of america. he does not understand the values and principles that we're supposed to be celebrating on july 4th. it should be about that spirit of the declaration of independence, a document that i am absolutely certain that donald trump has never read once. >> and you know who knows what our values are? putin, and he is the one trying to kill them, because he said liberal democracy is dying. i think trump didn't have any idea what he is talking about which gives you a sense who is the intellectual leader in that

duet. thank you, yamiche alcindor, jeremy psychs. the conditions facing the migrants. a situation the homeland inspector general is calling, listen to this, we're going to know this later, a ticking time bomb, he called it. let's watch. >> we came today to say we will shut this down if we have to. >> it's a whole new 2020 ball game for the democrats out there. two major polls now show joe biden's huge lead is melting like an ice cream cone in summer. and senator kamala harris is getting the biggest debate bounce by far. plus, with the television ratings for last week's television debates tell me about republican voters. were they window-shopping for an alternative to trump? a lot of them were watching. much ahead. stay with us. with us

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welcome back to "hardball." there were more expressions of outrage today as a congressional delegation toured the nation's largest unaccompanied minor detention facility down in home steady, florida. let's watch. >> when you see something that is not right, not fair, not just, you have to say something. taxpayers are paying $775 per day per child for people to be held in these situations. >> what is it going to take to comply with the law, have these children reunited with their sponsors, their family members within the 20 days? >> yesterday, a separate delegation toured two facilities in texas and say they heard horrifying stories. >> when we went into the cell, it was clear that the water was not running. there was a total, but there was

no running water for people to drink. in fact, one of the women said that she was told by an agent to drink water out of the toilet. >> nbc news was not present. they could not verify that particular allegation. but today the office of the inspector general issued a new management alert targeting dangerous overcrowding and prolonged detention of children and adults in the rio grande valley. the inspector general's office released these images showing the overcrowded conditions and noted that, quote, senior managers at several facilities raised security concerns about their agents and detainees. one called the situation a ticking time bomb. the alert also mentioned that 31% of children held in custody in the region have been held longer than the 72 hours permitted by law and had no access to showers. the chairman of the house oversight committee elijah cummings of maryland has invited the acting secretaries of dhs and customs and border patrol to

testify about the separation and treatment of migrant children and allegations of overcrowding. they were first invited last week, but neither has confirmed plans to attend the hearing. for more i'm joined by u.s. congressman mike veasey and the human rights deputy watch director. congressman, thank you for joining us. you know what everybody watching would benefit from is a really good description of what you saw as an eyewitness down there. >> well, what we saw was horrible, particularly when we talked with some of the detainees that were in the holding cells at the first facility that we visited. where we were told that if they asked for a drink of water, that the guards told them to drink out of the toilet, that they had gone days without taking showers. and of course when you take those tours, you have to give 48 hours notice as a member of congress before you can take the tour. and of course they try to do everything they can to clean the

facility up. so much of the space at the facilities that we visited were empty, particularly like the outdoor sleeping areas and the outdoor holding areas in the heat. they were completely empty. but i believe everything that those -- the migrants told us while we were there just based on the experience that we had with some of the personnel there with customs, we told them that it was not a good idea for us, for instance, to go out and have a press conference with all of those hecklers nearby. and they were just like no, it wouldn't be fair if we moved them away. and of course they were out there screaming and yelling and what have you. and they did absolutely nothing to help the situation whatsoever. and you would think that after finding out that there was a facebook page where people were making racist, misogynistic comments that they would do everything possible to make it look like they had the safety of

the american public at the front, and they absolutely in my opinion did not. and based on what i saw and read on those facebook pages that was in the propublica article, i 100% think that those migrants were telling us the complete truth about their treatment in these facilities because it guess hand in hand. >> claire, let me ask you about the cases. i think it may be one instant of this border patrol person saying go drink the water from the toilet. is that literal? i heard there was the same sort of tank of water that had the faucet at the top to drink from a fountain, if you will, and then the water used for the toilet. i don't even understand this. explain that appliance, if you will, they're asked to go drink from. >> i think the appliance is very much what you're saying. it's a pony wall. it doesn't go all the way to the ceiling, so there is no real privacy to use the toilet in these cells where you had dozens of people in them. and then, you know, based on

what i've seen and heard described countless times, it's a toilet with a tap on top of it. so the water actually comes up through the back of the toilet. now the water doesn't necessarily have contact, to be fair, the toilet water. but a lot of people find that -- >> life is complicated. we heard the other day, last night on the program we reported that there are some border patrol people that are really so concerned about the welfare of the people they were detaining, they had spent their own money to feed them. and now i hear these bad apples that say go drink out of the toilet. what's going on here? >> asking people to drink out of that tap that comes out of the toilet is common practice across the entire border. i was part of this team of attorneys -- >> but it didn't mean go drinking out of the toilet bowl. >> it's not drinking out of the toilet bowl. haven't heard an account of drinking out of the toilet bill. >> jerry nadler criticized the trump administration today for allowing migrants to be held in these conditions. here he is earlier today.

>> all the people who are in those detention facilities are migrants. they all claim asylum. some of them are entitled under our law to asylum. some are not. all are entitled to humanity, to decent treatment, to decent judicial adjudication, and not to be tortured or regarded as refuse. all the people in the administration who have done this, who have permitted it are guilty of child abuse, which is a crime. we ought to prosecute. >> let me go to congress on that. such strong language about prosecution of public officials. what do you make of it? >> you know, exactly what jerry is saying on prosecution. i mean, i do think that if people's rights have been

violated and there have been criminal acts that have been committed, of course they should be prosecuted. but i think immediately that there should be an investigation. and i don't know if you heard, chris, elijah cummings, who is the chair of the oversight committee, he has announced that there will be hearings to look into these allegations on how migrants were treated on this facebook page, and again if people have crossed the line, then they absolutely do need to be prosecuted. there is no question about that. >> let me go to claire on a couple of points. first of all, when you have gone through these camps, what do you see? describe to a person who has never been there. >> all right. so there are concrete cells. benches around the outside of them. pony walls with the toilets behind. >> what is a pony wall? >> pony wall is a short wall that doesn't go all the way up to the ceiling. it goes up to your waist or something. in a lot of cases, we've seen those pictures that the oig

released today, you'll have so many people in there, that not everybody can sit or lie down at the same time, these pictures we're looking at right now. that's what you see. >> uh-huh. >> let me ask you about these groups of hecklers. who is heckling who? >> you get a lot of people who i think want to make a political statement here. >> are they on the right? >> on the right. >> and they don't like immigrants? >> right. i mean, the congressman just mentioned this facebook group. you have 9,500 border patrol agents in a secret facebook group. that's about half the agents the u.s. has. >> and what are they saying? >> what they're saying are anti-immigrant statements. racist memes, joking about the deaths of children in border patrol stations. i think this congressional oversight investigations are needed and overdue. on top of that, congress needs to work to reinforce transparency and accountability in the agency itself, which has

too long been allowed to continue. >> and congressman, back to something you know about. what did it feel like when you saw people heckling? they were heckling migrants. they were also heckling you, who were showing an interest in their welfare. >> of course the first thing you think of is your own safety. we're in texas, and everybody has guns, particularly people like in the crowd that were part of the hecklers that were there wearing the maga hats. and you worry about your safety particularly when the people entrusted to guard you are probably members of that page. like it was just mentioned about half of the members of customs and border patrol are members of this facebook page. and these are the same people we were counting on to protect us from people that were screaming terrible things, that were distorting people's names, making them into slur words. as we walked down, the local congresswoman, veronica escobar, they kept distorting her first name to make it derogatory.

and they were saying terrible things about everybody there, about migrants, screaming things about planned parenthood. it was -- it was a complete circus. and i just don't think that the border patrol people did anything. and we asked them. we said hey, we know that these people are going to be heckling us. we're not going to be able to hear. we're not trying to do anything to stomp on their first amendment rights, but why don't we move them back a little bit? and they refused to do it. one of the law enforcement officials even suggested well, why don't you cancel the press conference? that was their suggestion on dealing with this rowdy group. it was definitely the worst i've seen of any press conference i've ever been to. >> just give me a idea. where did all this break loose today? was it texas or florida? where was it? >> yesterday in florida on the border is the heckling that we were subject to when we were

visiting the clinton facility there. >> okay, thank you u.s. congressman marc veasey of texas and clara long. thank you so much. up next, democrats in the house file lawsuit against the treasury department today demanding it turn over trump's tax returns, but the president says he'll fight this one all the way to the supreme court. we've got a congressman from that committee that filed that lawsuit to tell us more, straight ahead. straight ahead ♪ that a speaker is just a speaker. ♪ or - that the journey can't be the destination. most people haven't driven a lincoln. discover the lincoln approach to craftsmanship at the lincoln summer invitation. right now, get 0% apr on all 2019 lincoln vehicles plus no payments for up to 90 days. only at your lincoln dealer.

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welcome back to "hardball." tonight the white house is responding to what it's called a sham lawsuit by house democrats and their ongoing efforts to try to get ahold of donald trump's tax returns. how ways and means committee chair richard neal filed a lawsuit today accusing the irs and the treasury department of mounting an extraordinary attack on the authority of congress to obtain information needed to conduct oversight of treasury, the irs and the tax laws on behalf of the american people. this follows repeated attempts by democrats starting in april to obtain six years of the president's personal and business tax returns. treasury secretary steve mnuchin blocked those efforts, even defying a subpoena last week saying the democrats had no legislative purpose to request the president's returns. however, the purpose is irrelevant under the law. the u.s. tax code makes clear that, quote, upon written request, the secretary of the treasury shall furnish sunshine committee with any return or

return information specified in such requests. for more i'm joined by democratic congressman dan kill key of the house ways and means committee. congressman kildee, why does your committee have to give reasons for getting these tax returns when the law says the secretary treasury shall produce them for the committee? why do you have to have a reason? >> well, he really doesn't have to have a reason. congress has its authority. we can exercise that authority based on our own discretion. in this case, we do have a legislative purpose. we have two. one is oversight, to make sure that the irs is properly enforcing the law, the tax code on the president of the united states. and then we have a legislative purpose, and that is the question whether or not we need to codify what has been a practice of auditing presidents when they come into office. that's been a practice of the irs, but it's not the law. but the real point that you make is the most important one. it is not up to the executive

branch of the u.s. government to decide when there is a legitimate legislative branch initiative. the separation of powers makes it clear. we share authority. and that includes us having access to information to inform our decision-making process. and to have the white house call it a sham lawsuit, i guess if there is one thing that the white house has some expertise on, it's shams. trump university ought to know something about the subject. pardon me? >> where does this all end up? i've been hearing about subpoenas and requests for documents and for testimony, and all that seems to be going on and on. we're halfway through the first year of congressional control of the house, and we're getting towards through the summer. i'm wondering if you're going to be able to get the president's tax returns before the next election. do you wonder than? >> that's a really good question. i am worried about it. it's going to be up to the courts to determine how quickly they move on this. we hope they move very quickly. but i hope this is not missed on

the american people, that what we have as a president that is refusing to adhere to the law, the law is very clear and is fighting congress every step of the way to protect his unilateral authority and to diminish ours. if people should be concerned about this, it's partly because we should have access to the information. but more important than that is that this president seems completely unwilling to accept the fact that he was not elected emperor, he was elected chief executive in a government that has the authority divided between three branches. he has never accepted that. he tries to diminish the authority and the integrity of the courts, and now he is trying to diminish the authority of congress. it's just not how our system of government works. >> well, meanwhile, in just over two weeks from now, congressman, former special counsel robert mueller will testify publicly in front of congress, and today president trump is warning mueller to limit that testimony to what's in his actual report. the president tweeted robert mueller is being asked to

testify yet again. he said he could only stick to the report, and that is what he would and should and must do. the president seems to be really trying to intimidate him to stick to his brief. meanwhile, your republican colleagues on the other side of the aisle are clearly getting together a mob attack on this guy where they're going to go after him for the origin of the investigation. they're going to go after him about strzok, that bad apple in the fbi and his romantic relationship with somebody else. they're going to go after all the misbehavior they can find. i'm more confident they're going dig up dirt on mueller than mueller's ability to produce anything new. what do you think? >> well, he is certainly going to do everything he can to try to ruin mr. mueller's reputation in order to diminish the conclusions that mr. mueller came up with. if the president wants mr. mueller simply to stick to the report, we'll be happy to do that, because the president says

that the report exonerates him. mr. mueller makes it clear that it does not exonerate him. the president says the report says no collusion. the report does not say that at all. so if he wants to stick to the facts of the report and have a full and fair hearing on that, game on. but the truth of the matter is, as you said, what he's going to attempt to do, and cynically, what the republicans in congress are going to do is to try to kill the messenger. they don't like the facts in the report so they're going to try to besmirch the reputation of a good and decent public servant. and that's just shameful. >> that's what i see coming, sir. thank you so much. dan keel dee, member from michigan. next up, seismic shifts coming into focus now in the post-debate polling. the democrats are really shook up after what happened last week. looks like we weren't the only ones to see that kamala harris was the breakout star of last week. more "hardball" after this. r ths

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welcome back to "hardball." the race for the democratic nomination is now wide open after last week's debates caused a seismic shift leading to what is for now a statistical tie for the lead. brand-new polls today show that senator kamala harris has officially catapulted into a serious second. and former vice president joe biden has serious reason for concern. a new quinnipiac poll shows biden clinging to a lead at 22% with senator harris leaping up to second place with 20%. look at that. two points apart now. rounding out the rest of the top tier, the other standout from the match senator warren still in third at 14% with bernie sanders now fourth with 13%. he is fading. that national poll comes alongside a new poll in iowa about the caucuses there that shows trouble for the former vp

in a critical first in the nation caucus state. the suffolk universal poll of likely iowa caucusgoers finds biden leading with 24% with harrison second at 16 in iowa and warren in third. bernie again down to single digits, 9%. the polls made something else clear, and i really like this. the reporter, columnists and the american public all saw the same thing at last week's debate, and that's coming up next. totally consistency. you're watching "hardball." that led to the ride ♪ which took them to the place where they discovered that sometimes a little down time can lift you right up. ♪ flights, hotels, cars, activities, vacation rentals. expedia. everything you need to go.

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hey, guys, you know what? america does not want to witness a food fight. they want to know how we're going to put food on their table. >> there is biden clapping for her before the onslaught, before the food starts hitting him in his face. welcome back the "hardball." that was one of senator harris' breakout moments. harris along with senator elizabeth warren have seen their stocks soaring in several major polls since then, dominating their respective nights in last week's debates. a new quinnipiac poll out today made that clear. when asked what candidate did the best job, 47% said harris, followed by warren, a distant 17%. only 6% said joe biden had the best performance.

you had to wonder who they were. i'm joying by former senior adviser to hillary clinton 2016 and ginger gibson of reuters. ginger, a couple of things, what i really liked most what the main reporters wrote that kamala cleaned his clock. what we all saw there in the booth and the spin room and everywhere else, and what the public saw through the polling was the exact same thing. no fake news, no disconnect from inside the beltway, outside the beltway, inside the bubble, outside the bubble. everybody saw the same tv show. she won. >> that's right. they were on the same page there was the same perception. i think because it was such a clear home. it's harder to success out some of the losers. i think bernie is a great example of a place where everyone wasn't sure what to make of his performance. i sort of thought he faded into the background. he didn't have a big standout moment. and his polls have sort of faltered a little, but not

monumentally. >> didn't you think it was replica of bernie being bernie? if there were a hall of the states for losers that lose the elections. he is not a loser, but lose elections, he would be behaving like that. that was bernie being bernie, the way that larry david portrayed him. >> i was just going to say larry david, chris. with one other candidate in the race, bernie being bernie was fine in 2016. rather it served him well. but on a stage with nine other candidates, and now with 25 people in the race. >> you're so smart. that's exactly. whenever somebody says what i've been thinking better than i do. i find it hard to talk revolution when there are nine people around you. they're not in a revolution. how do you claim a revolution? >> said the same thing he said in 2016 this time around. that's not working. >> that's the point i want to make. america has evolved in the last four years. people's perspectives have changed. bernie sanders sounds like 2015 bernie sanders. and if you've expected some

evolution and you haven't gotten it from him, people are scratching their heads. >> i see kamala much longer, talking pretty strong progressive stuff. you have elizabeth out there for four years selling it. and she says it in a somewhat more subtle way. i'm not a socialist. i'm a democrat. i believe in markets, but i want to refine them, i want structural change. very carefully calibrating how far left the country is willing to go. still, bernie is out there with the old left. >> yeah, i think so, chris. and voters know that bernie sanders has been talking about the same policies essentially since he has been in public service, for the past 25, 30 years. but he actually hasn't done anything to pass them. he has talked a lot about them. but we have not seen any of these policies signed into law. you have kamala harris, elizabeth warren, new senators on the scene who i think voters are looking at them saying these ladies may have a chance to get these passed. >> she talked sunday about how

she tried to interview him and talk to him about anita hill and the crime bill and everything else he has had to deal with and get it over with before you have to go into the debate. in other words, soften it up a bit with a soft landing with a somewhat not predatory conversation. instead, he walked in, it was a predatory conversation. she went right after him with everything she had, and he had to explain himself in the toughest possible moment. >> it was like a buzz saw that he should have seen coming. we're talking about biden anticipating these things that had been -- this wasn't an attack out of left field. this was things that had been talked about the week before. i think we saw from biden a moment of realizing that things have changed, and really not -- >> he was in strange territory for him. >> not anticipating this. and let's be clear. biden has a long stellar record on civil rights, but he's got to remember he is talking to a party that doesn't remember him, that many voters didn't see him especially in the democratic base didn't see him in the united states senate, that don't

remember working on voting rights. >> he's got a tough one, though, and it's bussing, and he is going to have to explain a position on that because we're now talking about 30, 40 years ago, 40 years ago and a debate that he was on the conservative side. >> yep. i also want to make this point, chris. going back to biden's record, he has been serving in either the congress or the senate since he was 29 years old. so now because of his poor performance in the first debate, other campaigns are saying we're going to pour through his record, and we're going to decide which vote and which set of issues we actually want to attack him on. so he is going to be playing more defense unless he figures out how to rise above, make it about trump as opposed to defending his record, because i think he can do that. i think a lot of us were expecting him to do that. >> last thought. >> one thing i say as i talk to democratic voters even this week, they don't want to see a fight. they don't want to see attacks. there is a real risk if any of them start boring in harder and harder -- >> tell them to watch "dancing with the stars," because they're going to be at fights in every one of the debates now.

you know that's where it's headed. it's not going to be a food fight. it's going to be a real fight. adrienne elrod, ginger, thanks. coming up next, the most watched democratic debate in history. i'll talk about the audience when we come back. you're watching "hardball." you'. oh my, this heinz mayonnaise is so creamy,

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democrats should take note of something interesting for the first democratic presidential debate last week.

last thursday's encounter was the most watched democratic presidential debate ever. i looked at the ratings and noticed three out of four people who came over to msnbc to watch the debates were viewers of a cable network most associated with republicans, three quarters. now there is several reasons to explain why a partisan conservative would spend two hours on a thursday night watching democrats duke it out. one, they're looking for someone they can vote for besides donald trump. two, they wanted to stoke their commitment to keep the demonstrates out of the white house. and three, they could simply be curious about what the other side is up to. whatever the motive, what struck me is that these voters from trump land on thursday night were intrigued enough to stick around watching democrats for the whole two hours. and for that reason, i think it makes sense for those who see themselves as democratic leaders to think about getting those watchers of democratic candidates to become democratic voters. i'm simply noting that there are people out there searching for a political home. it makes sense for the democrats

to put out the welcome mat. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on "all in" -- >> all the people in the administration who have done this, who have permitted it are guilty of child abuse. >> new detailses on the terrible conditions inside detention camps, brought to light in a government report as the house oversight committee prepares to investigation what's happening to migrant kids. >> this is really urgent. this is a real crisis. i tell you, it's broken in there. >> congresswoman rashida tlaib joins me tonight. then -- >> i think it's totally ridiculous that we would have a census without asking. >> a huge victory as the white house backs down on a citizenship question on the census. plus -- >> what's your tax bracket? i don't know. i pay as little as possible because i'mn honest guy. >> how democrats are finally going after trump's taxes.