wednesday morning, i'm yasmin vossoughian alongside geoff bennett. "morning joe" starts right now. bennett. "morning joe" starts right now good morning to welcome to "morning joe", i'm willie geist, joe and mika have the morning off. we have professor at princeton university, eddie, and msnbc contributor, careen jean, kristen sol tis anderson, and the cofounder of axios, mike allen. you find out who your friends are when you ask them to come on the day before the fourth of july and i'm surrounded by them this morning. >> we love you willie. >> may i start please with the soccer match, kristen you watched it, i was up watching it as well. alex morgan, the decider with the header into the corner of the net, 2-1 for the american team, and the semifinal was the victory over england in the

world cup, they move on now, just a thrilling game. the brits came back and tied it up. it was called back on a penalty. we stopped a penalty kick. i couldn't breathe for about two hours, kristen. >> i was so nervous at the beginning when they said that megan rapinoe wasn't going to be in the lineup and we didn't know why for a while. she has been a rock star in the world cup. it came down, that keeper, she had such an incredible game, and stopping that penalty late, she was the woman of the match by far. >> and you saw alex morgan there sipping a little tea after what ended up being the game winning goal. they move on, play either sweden or netherlands, that big final, world cup final with team usa, the women's national team is on sunday. congrats to them, can't wait to watch. perfect for the july week. the latest on president trump's plans for the 4th and yes, the tanks, as you can see have arrived. also, another national poll showing former vice president

joe biden following significantly after last week's debate and senator kamala harris rising. we've got the new numbers out of iowa as well. also a controversial question about citizenship will be left off the 2020 census. president trump is calling it a sad day. we'll have more on that. and the fight over president's personal financial information escalates with house democrats suing the treasury department and the irs for access to the president's tax returns. we begin with a federal judge blocking the trump administration's policy that would keep thousands of asylum seekers locked up indefinitely while they wait for their cases to be decided. a u.s. district court judge said it was unconstitutional. the judge saying the governor must give asylum seekers bond hearings within seven days or release them. this after attorney general william barr announced in april the u.s. would no longer offer

bond hearings to asylum seekers and would instead keep them in custody as part of the trump administration's crack down on illegal border crossings. the judge's decision comes as the inspector general for the department of homeland security warns of quote dangerous overcrowding at migrant facilities in texas. these images come from a new report by government investigators who made unannounced inspections at five border patrol facilities and two ports of entry in the rio grande port of texas during the week of june 10th. investigators found children at the facilities did not have access to showers. they had to sleep on concrete floors. they also reported sengingle ads being held in standing room conditions for days, along with serious concerns about health risks. according to the report, senior managers at several facilities raised security conditions for their agents and for the detainees, one calling the situation a ticking time bomb. the acting dhs inspector general

wrote in the report quote we encourage the department of homeland security to take immediate steps to alleviate dangerous overcrowding and prolonged detention of children and adults in the rio grande valley. a group of congressional lawmakers visited a detention center for unaccompanied children in homestead, florida, yesterday. congresswoman frederica wilson who led the delegation vowed to stay there until she could see and speak to the young girls being held inside the facility. another member of congress said he was bothered by the lack of education available to the children. this marked the second straight day of lawmakers inspecting government facilities. on monday, several members of congress toured border patrol stations in texas. here's what some of them told msnbc about that experience. >> as soon as they realized that we were congress members, tears were rolling down their faces as they talked about their conditions. they said that they had no idea when they were going to leave. they have been there over 50

days. they said that they had been separated from their children. >> there was a point where one of the women who was cuban, she spoke some english, and in front of all of us, many of the legislators and also several cbp officers, she challenged them very directly and said they were not telling the truth about the standard of care and the treatment, and she said that some of the agents had used derogatory words, language against the women. >> we saw a little boy, he must have been 4 years old, they locked up the kids at clint so that members of congress could not talk to them. and so they locked these kids up, this little boy saw us, he ran up to the plek si glaglass, hands up as if he wanted to touch us and you can tell by his mouth, he was asking for his dad. it's just heartbreaking. >> those are members of congress giving eyewitness accounts of what they saw. nancy pelosi, after hearing the inspector general's report yesterday said the report provides a shocking window into

the dangerous and dehumanizing conditions the trump administration is inflicting on children and families. she said the inhumanity at the border is a challenge to the conscious of america. >> and it has been created by this administration. they have created this humanitarian crisis at the border. and this is the thing that i was thinking about the other day, which was the cruelty we see from the administration, the cruelty of the policy, the cruelty is not a by-product, it's actually a policy and that is the thing that's devastating and he's doing it in our name, caging babies, caging kids, separating them from their families, all in our name. young people have died. we just heard about a 30-year-old man who died this week. so i appreciate the congress going down and bearing witness. i think that's incredibly important because they have the power and clearly we're talking about it because they're down there but they need to be doing more. they need to bring forth the heads of the dhs, hhs, customs, i.c.e., and just bring them into

a committee hearing and put it live on tv, have them answer questions to the american people as to what is going on down there, and what are they doing to fix it. and they need to be voting every day to condemn their activities at the southern border. >> and in fact, eddie, there will be a hearing next week. elijah cummings has arranged for that to happen, there are some people who watch democrats talk about this, and they think it's a political issue in some way, they will say, of course aoc going off, but it's hard to argue with the inspector general with the department of homeland security who's not pushing an agenda or a perceiving agenda. >> and you know, you juxtapose the report from the accounting inspector general with the comments from the head of the department of homeland security saying this was sensational, that many of these comments weren't corroborated and then you have their own internal office, internal documents

showing and proving what the congressperson said about what was happening in the detention facilities were actually true. what's interesting here, though, willie is this, this is not happening in some far away place. this is not happening out of view. it's happening in plain sight. and so when you know that in one of the facilities in the report, they said close to 50 children under the age of 7 have been held for more than two weeks, when you hear that people don't have access to clothes aren't being able to shower, are fed bologna sandwiches, this is not only incompetent, it's a policy of cruelty. we are complicit in our silence. what we have seen over the last couple of days across the country, in some ways, wildcat

protests, close the camps, so we continue, as long as we shed light on this issue, we think the american people, i think the american people will continue, will begin to at least, let me say this, begin to protest loudly, because this is not who we are supposed to be. it's not consistent with our values. but it's in some ways consistent with our history. >> house speaker nancy pelosi, i mentioned she wrote a letter to president trump on monday urging him to improve the conditions at the border patrol facilityingie. her request includes water, hygiene and sanitation needs. house democrats are demanding to hear from two top officials, including acting dhs secretary, kevin kevin, and mark morgan, which has been consumed with a scandal, a facebook group with

thousands of current and former agents posting racist and sexist images of democratic lawmakers and joking about the death of migrants. house oversight committee elijah cummings sent a letter to facebook officials posting comments, including images, videos and texts including content from the group, and here is the chairman of the house judiciary committee jerry nadler. >> all the people who are in those detention facilities are migrants, all are entitled to humanity, to decent treatment, to decent judicial adjudication and not to be tortured or regarded as refuge. all the people in the administration who have done this, who have permitted it, are guilty of child abuse, which is a crime we ought to prosecute. >> mike allen, the visits this week by congressional democrats

put together with the story about the facebook group reported to be border patrol agents and put together now with the inspector general's report from the department of homeland security have painted a bleak picture and literally we are seeing photographs and pictures from inside the cells. does this change the conversation? does this moved the needle? does this improve things because so far that kind of attention hasn't done anything down at the border. >> you make a great point. now that we're seeing the vivid images, now that we can picture it, now that it has flesh and blood makes such a difference. until now, too much of it has been a washington story. too often it has been written about as a budget story or a statistical story, and now starting with that stark photograph of the father and daughter who didn't make it across the rio grande and now first hearing the tales from inside these facilities from the lawyers, now congress people

seeing it with their own eyes, that for sure makes a difference, and until now, both sides have been able to say it's the other side's fault. this is the moment that americans will say, we don't want to hear about washington gridlock, we don't want our kids eating bologna sandwiches and begging for their dad. >> both the house judiciary and oversight committees will come back next week over the fourth of july holiday with hearings in the detention facilities. we'll come back to this story in a bit. i want to turn to senator kamala harris, beginning a three day campaign tour of iowa as more new polling shows her rapidly overtaking nu overtaking much of the democratic presidential field after last week's debate performance. a national poll from quinnipiac, shows joe biden down 8 points and kamala harris two points behind at 20%. she is up 13 points since just three weeks ago.

senator elizabeth warren in third with 14%, bernie sanders dropped 6 points to 13%, mayor pete buttigieg down 4 points to 4%, senator cory booker rising to 3%. this poll lines up with other recent polls, showing biden and sanders in decline, and warren and kamala harris are on the rise the quinnipiac poll shows democrats are rethinking who is the most electable candidate. asked who has the best chance of winning against president trump, joe biden is seen as the stronge strongest with 42% but that's dropped from 56% in april. senator kamala harris has risen 12 points to 14% in this poll, while bernie sanders holds relatively steady at 13%. elizabeth warren is on the rise as well, up 6 points to 9%. in iowa, a usa today suffolk university poll puts biden in the lead with 24%, and harris in second at 16%. warren there at 13%, and sanders

who nearly shocked hillary clinton in the 2016 caucuses, in fourth place with 9%. buttigieg, amy klobuchar and senator booker also register in this poll which counts toward qualifying for the third debate in september. so kristen, let's go back to the first set of polls, we can get to iowa in just a second, but the quinnipiac poll lining up with what we saw yesterday in a cnn poll, which is joe biden down and kamala harris rising quickly. >> that's right. i think a lot of this is in part is people giving the broader field a look after these debates. a lot of speculation before them was joe biden's lead, mainly a product of, a large contingent of support among african-american voters that was strong but after those debates when he was pressed on his positions from the 1970s, from the 1980s, going back through his record, it's showing this is not just going to be a cake walk for him.

you still have for the most part, the same kind of first and second tier of candidates that you had before. the top five is still mostly the top five. none of the sort of 1% candidates had a breakout moment but in that top five, things have been shaken up in a way that has got to be making kamala harris and elizabeth warren pretty happy. >> we talked about this in miami, which is for those of us in the political world, we know a lot about these candidates, we know where they stand. we think we understand them. to the country, that was the introduction. >> exactly. >> last wednesday and thursday, that was the introduction, who are these people, what do they believe, what's their style, and kamala harris showed them something, and she's up 13 points. >> 18 million viewers on thursday, 15 million viewers on wednesday. that's a big haul, and who knows when you think about the social media aspect how many more millions of people watched, and look, it was an opportunity to introduce yourself, let people know who you are. we knew that bernie and biden had the name recognition.

they had that name i.d. and now they were both tested in many ways. bernie, we see his numbers are a little soft, they're not as strong as we thought they were as well, and the women surged, the two women that won the debates are surging and i think that says a lot. just to be clear, it's still very early. we're at the early stages of this. we have a long way to go. and it's fluid. >> and this was probably inevitable, that joe biden wasn't going to sit there 20 points up and cruise along for a year to the nomination. what do you think thhis campaig takes out of his performance last week and the reaction in the polls this week? >> i think the strategy of just assuming you can run towards the general election during the primary has to be thrown into the trash can. if they do that, this is just hillary clinton 2.0, and i think he's going to have to be much more aggressive in terms of laying out policy positions and trying to demonstrate to voters, he's not a background looking candidate, he can provide the leadership for moving forward,

for addressing our contemporary problems and provide a vision for the country moving forward. what's interesting, though, in terms of the black voter support, for biden, i'm remembering the primary, before the 2008 election. and remember most the black political class and black folk generally supported hillary clinton while barack obama was kind of languishing in the shadows and then suddenly something happened in iowa and folks said, oh, this guy might win, so these practical voters are attracted to name recognition, who are supporting someone who is a part of the first black administration will continue to look, and if kamala harris continues to rise, you might see a change in those numbers for biden. >> and it is early, mike allen as karene says. joe biden as a wide base of support in over 50 years of public life, but based on what he did thursday night, the way he looked, the way he reacted to

kamala harris when she came at him a little bit, should he be concerned about the future of this race? >> the people around him are very concerned, just what we have been talking here "washington post," abc news poll popped up showing biden duriabl in the lead, but why are people really worried. what they say to me is this is what we were afraid of, it's not just looking rusty but it's going into this debate, making a mistake that no rookie would, and that is not being prepared, not having an offensive strategy, not being ready for some obvious hits that were coming. so another debate july 30th, biden has the chance there to exceed expectations, but people who have been around these campaigns worry that the damage will not be in what actually happened that night but what it shows about where the vice president is, is he really ready to transcend the idea that he's a man out of time. because it's just such fleeting

impressions that come away with these debates. axios has reporting from survey monkey which did word clouds, talking to a thousand voters who watched each debate, what did you really remember, and from the first debate it was speaking spanish was what broke through but from the second debate, the word cloud is just the big word kamala harris. she had her moment like a prosecutor. she prepared. and she stuck her landing. >> they were ready for that. >> so kristen, all the focus has been on kamala harris and joe biden, and rightly so, but there's also something else happening when you look at the polls and that is in the warren sanders lane where elizabeth warren and that progressive group slowly has steadily overtaken bernie sanders. >> that's right. and i think, you know, to the point that eddie made earlier about the need for somebody like a biden to kind of put his plans out there, put his policy proposals out there, that's obviously something that elizabeth warren has been doing

a lot of over the last couple of months. i think something else she's done that's very savr vy is bei the star on the first night of the debate gave her an opportunity to have a breakout moment and introduce herself. she's running on a populist message where she's running against corporations, running against big business, almost more so than running against president trump but she's not wrapping herself in the overt language of the word socialism. bernie sanders is a couple of weeks ago gave a speech sort of defending the concept of democratic socialism. elizabeth warren stays away from that, stays on safer ground with a very progressive economic agenda. some folks on the republican side would call socialist adjacent. she herself stays away from that word and that's very powerful, and important, showing democratic voters have a populist economic view but aren't necessarily willing to go all the way bernie sanders is. >> she said i'm a proud

capitalist but we have to do a lot better within capitalist. >> mike allen, thank you very much, happy 4 to you my friend. >> happy 4 to you and yours. the justice department said the 2020 census will be printed without the controversial questions about citizen ship, based on his tweets, president trump may not be ready to give up that fight. former special counsel robert mueller is expected to appear before congress later this month, and president trump just announced some counter programming for his base. we'll explain that, but first, bill karins has a look at the fourth of july forecast. hey, bill. good morning to you, get away day for a lot of people, the busiest day on the roads and airports. we hit a record all time high in miami. today is going to be very hot from gainesville to jacksonville, heat indices from 105 to 110. by florida standards that's hot. wet weather is dying off. we'll see new storms popping up this afternoon. here's today's forecast for the get away day. showers and storms along the

gulf coast, afternoon to the evening. dc could see a stray afternoon shower, a thunderstorm in the northeast looks fine. chicago you're looking good at 87. st. louis, and kansas city, a chance of a storm. your fourth of july traforecast new york city, 87 degrees, sunny, no problems there. atlanta around 93 with a chance of a storm here and there, and there is a chance of storms from st. louis to chicago. as far as the fireworks forecast goes, we are going to be watching the macy's fireworks display in new york city, no problems whatsoever, but we could have a minor delay problem in areas like chicago, possibly through the ohio valley. correct me if i'm wrong it's goi -- i don't think it's going to cancel your fireworks. going to your fourth of july, heading toward the weekend, many areas are remaining warm and dry. washington, d.c. included. a slight chance of a storm later on today. temperatures feeling very summer like. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. joe." we'll be right back. let's get down to business.

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joe", richard neil filed a lawsuit in district court against the trump administration in an effort to secure access to the president's tax returns. according to a committee spokesperson, neil issued subpoenas to the treasury department and irs after months of repeatedly requesting the records from treasury secretary steve mnuchin. he requested the financial documents in april. in a letter last month, mnuchin rejected that request saying it lacks a legitimate legislative purpose. let's bring in danny cevallos. good to see you. obviously the tax returns of the president, people have wanted to see. is this the way to get them? >> this is a good way, and if i were to bet, i would bet heavily on congress on this one, on the ways and means committee.

here's why. federal law protects all of our tax returns from disclosure but there's some very clear exceptions and one of those is upon request from any one of three committees, including ways and means, the treasury shall, not may, not if they feel like it, shall turn over those returns for inspection. and the law was specifically enacted to combat corruption, way back in 1924. you know, before 1924, the president had the discretion as to whether or not to release these returns. congress looked at the issue back then and said, no, we're going to use a different system. that's the system we have today. on the trump administration side, they're arguing, they're taking a step back, and saying, well, look at the law in its whole, look at constitutionally, congress needs a legitimate legislative purpose, and there isn't any here. it's an interesting argument but ultimately, virtually any arcticable purpose will suffice. >> who adjudicates that

question, richey neil says i need the tax returns, the white house says you're not getting the tax returns, then what. >> now they have gone to court. there's always the issue when it comes to stuff like this that this may be a political question the courts can't touch. in reality, i think the courts have jurisdiction over this issue, and i think ultimately looking at the language of the law, they will take the easy route, which is look, it says shall, must, you shall turn over these returns. >> and the trump administration has shown a completely unwillingness to work with subpoenas on other issues so we'll see if they do here. >> it may work for them because the trump administration has learned what trump knew in his private life, if you wage a war of legal attrition, eventually you may win by running out the clock. that works exceptionally well with a congress that changes every couple of years. the 2020 census has been sent to the printers without a question about citizenship. that's according to a justice department e-mail sent to plaintiffs in a related lawsuit.

it's a victory for civil rights advocates, a major defeat for the trump administration which tried repeatedly to justify its decision to add the controversial question to the constitutionally required count before being stopped last week by the supreme court. president trump who openly considered postponing the census until that question was approved promised to continue fighting for the question yesterday, tweeting a very sad time for america when the supreme court of the united states won't allow a question of is this person a citizen of the united states to be asked in the 2020 census. i have asked the department of commerce and the department of justice to do whatever is necessary to bring this most vital of questions, and this very important case to a successful conclusion. what does that mean to you, danny, i'm not sure what it means. >> the last part was usa, usa, i guess i can agree with that sentiment because it is fourth of july. >> yeah. >> it's interesting that trump is tweeting that. i don't know if he read the opinion because he mostly won.

the supreme court mostly gave his administration a win, right up until the last point. the supreme court held that, yes, the administration or the government has the ability to include more than just head count type questions. they can ask questions about other things beyond just getting a number of people who live in the united states. we use the census for different things but ultimately at the end, the court concluded that, well, you know, your reason for giving is isn't so great, so we're going to send it back down, you're going to have a chance to dress that back up again. on the whole, the administration came away mostly with a win, mostly. but time will tell. >> can we understand or can we see this policy, danny, as part of this overall attempt to address the demographic shifts in the country? the census question, there was the kind of political backdrop on republican operative revealed that we can put this question on the census, and it could have this sort of impact in terms of who would be counted and how the

nation would look in some ways, and how that would play itself out politically, is this a part of and did the court recognize that this was part of a broader, more sinister or more insidious strategy on the part of the president. >> you bring up such a good point, and the ultimate question boils down to this, if the government has the unfettered authority to do something under a law, does it matter that they may have done it with a bad motive? in other words, if you have the power no matter what to enact a law or to do something or to include a citizenship question, then the fact that you had a pretext and that was a bad pretikpr pretext, maybe under the law it doesn't matter if you have that power. >> another story, a navy seal chief has been found not guilty of murdering an isis fighter, special operations chief edward gallagher was accused of fatally stabbing the isis teenager, posing for a picture with the body, and opening fire on civilians two years ago.

gallagher was found guilty only on the charge involving the photo with the body. gallagher walked out free. the maximum sentence he can face is four months. he has spent a longer period of time in pretrial confinement. he was turned in by the platoon leader. the trial was turned upside down when a prosecution witness unexpectedly testified that he and not gallagher killed the isis member. the witness who was given immunity for that testimony may be charged with perjury. help us sort through this one. are you surprised by verdict? >> i'm not surprised by the verdict, but the fact that you had a witness go south to the prosecution is not that unusual. it happens fairly often in the context of cooperating witnesses who are there against their will. juries sometimes see past that and convict. to me, argument that probably held more water is what i would have made to the jury, and i'm sure the defense attorneys made,

a two prong argument, first, you don't know what it's like over there, we can sit here in the cool air-conditioned courtroom and talk about decisions made in the battlefield but we really don't know what it's like over there. even the military jury may not fully know what the navy seals went through from day-to-day, and .2, relatedly, is that by the way, we are in the business of killing. we're not accountants, we're not doctors, we are there to kill. we kill with artillery, we kill with missiles and those have civilian impacts. we kill civilians every day accidentally, how much different is this, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, and so to me, it wasn't that surprising that this was an acquittal. at their core, they would be asking the jurors to think about, we don't know what it's like over there, who are we to judge. eddie, i see you biting your tongue. >> i understand. his platoon turned on him. >> that's right. >> so there are rules of engagement. >> that's right.

>> are there rules of engagement that define how our men and women are supposed to behave in the battlefield and if this man did what his colleagues, they broke a code to turn him in, many of them have to walk around with weapons because their lives have been threatened because they broke the code. >> that's right. and so the through line of these three stories is simply an aversion to the rule of law, people aren't being held accountable, whether it's a rogue kpeexecutive power, wheth it's a racist insidious question on the census, or whether you can't be held accountable for doing something profoundly immoral. i don't know anything about war, but you can't do that. >> what you said at the end was key, the fact that we don't, many of us don't know anything about war. many even some of the jurors, though they were military personnel, maybe they don't have the experience that a navy seal has when he's given an order to go over there and kill isis fighters, and he went over there and he killed isis fight ergs.

you' -- fighters. you're right that it's significant that his fellow teammates turned him in. ultimately it's not the teammate's job to interpret the uniform code of military justice. it's the jury. the fact that they turned him in brought him to the court, but it isn't this positive. ultimately it seems like the jury wanted to convict on something, and that was a very clear conviction was posing for a photograph. i mean, that appeared pretty crystal clear. that's maybe what the jury was thinking. >> gallagher is a free man today. danny cevallos, covering a lot of ground for us this morning. thank you very much. happy 4th. coming up, president trump says the pentagon and military leaders are thrilled about his plans for a july 4th celebration that includes tanks, helicopters, and fighter jets. we'll talk to congresswoman and navy veteran, mikie sherrill, and see what she thinks of his plan and protecting the 2020 election. that's next on "morning joe." ♪

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a salute to america and i'm going to be here, and i'm going to say a few words, and we're going to have planes going overhead, the best fighter jets in the world and other planes too, and we're going to have

some tanks stationed outside. got to be pretty careful with the tanks because the roads like to not carry heavy tanks. we have the brand new sherman tanks. >> several tanks rolled into washington overnight in preparation for president trump's july 4th event. despite that it will be nonpartisan, democratic lawmakers may have to stake out spots hours in advance as they have not received tickets. republicans, however, including rnc donors have been granted access to a vip area near the lincoln memorial. here's how the white house justifies that. >> this is a public event. it's open to the public. the public is welcome to come and celebrate our great country, the greatest democracy. i'm not going to allow you to

politicize it. >> the national park service is diverting nearly $2.5 million in fees, meant to improve parks across the united states to help cover costs associated with the independence day event. that's according to "the washington post." joining us now u.s. navy veteran and member of the armed services committee, democratic congresswoman mikie sherrill of new jersey. congresswoman, great to see you this morning. >> thanks so much for having me. >> welcome home to new jersey. >> loving it. >> so i want to get to the important work you're doing on election security in just a moment. first as someone who has served, what's your reaction to this idea of tanks and planes rolling into washington for the fourth of july? >> you know, i think a lot of people are arguing over whether or not we should have the tanks and the planes, but something no one is arguing over is our fourth of july celebrations on the mall should be nonpartisan. this should be a celebration of our country. and so i have been telling everybody, if they're not pleased with the partisan nature of washington to come to

parsipny, we had a bruce springsteen concert last year. >> will there be tanks? >> there will be beach blanket sg. >> nobody objects to a celebration of the military and our troops, it is the idea that president trump may get up there at the lincoln memorial and drop into some kind of a campaign speech. do you have that concern? >> you know, that would be an unfortunate miss of an opportunity to, again, unite the country. to really, you know, bring people together in a celebration our democracy, of our values, of our country, and so i really hope that that is not what the president uses the 4th for. >> he did do it at the d-day celebration. he gave a speech that was not political, so perhaps he can pull it off again tomorrow. >> fingers crossed, considering no democrats were given tickets to the event. my question to you,

congresswoman is as a u.s. navy veteran, what message is this parade tomorrow sending to our troops out there and to veterans, like what does this say when they see this? what do they think about this, do you think? >> you know, i think that they probably are used to tanks and planes, and we go to a lot of air shows. we just had a beautiful air show and paratroopers in normandy to celebrate that, so i think that probably people will regard it in different ways. some people will think that's a nice celebration. some people will think there's better ways to celebrate and use taxpayer money as we're always worried about in new jersey. again, i think what nobody will disagree about is this is a time to bring people together. this is a time to celebrate all americans and celebrate what makes us unique as americans and i hope we can do that. >> to my mind, july 4th has been about the idea of america, not so much our military strength. to put forward the idea that

we're the super power, as opposed to the power of the american idea of democracy sugs -- suggests a shift, but what do you make of this, to pay for it, from the parks and recreation fees will be diverted to pay for this spectacle which seems to be a political rally. what do you make of that? >> if it's a political rally, i don't think anybody will disagree that that is a poor use of funds, it is to be used for funds to celebrate our country. i have long watched the celebration on tv, you know, to see the bands play and the marine corps band play and fireworks go off, and feel a sense of pride in our country, that's what we want americans to feel is this is our country and we share that together. to use it to divide people if that's the case, i think would be a really poor use of our money. i'm really hoping, though, as you mentioned, willie, you know, at normandy, the president did bring people together. and i think that was well received. and i think that's what we want

to see again. so i'm hoping, i'm hoping that's what we see. >> i hope so too. let's talk about the work with task force sentry, which is to help protect american elections in a way they weren't protected in 2016, and frankly 2018. you have a group of six democrats and you did get one republican to work with you on this, what exactly are you doing specifically to help protect our elections? >> we have been for many weeks now really looking into exactly what happened, how the russians hacked into our democracy, how they instigated people into protests, how they influenced chat rooms. you know, we saw with the mueller report, some of the -- some of what they used to influence our election system, and the thing that i think caught our attention is many of us having worked in national security, i was a russian policy, we have seen this type of attack on other democracies, so to have it here at home was particularly offensive and

particularly concerning. we had, i think, assumed that there would be some legislation in planning and we've not seen that, and when the news came out that for me that the secretary of homeland security had attempted to go to the president to plan to protect the 2020 elections and was not able to do so, i thought now it's time that congress step up and do this, the national security expertise, the foreign policy expertise in many ways resides in the freshman class right now. >> what exactly does this do that's not being done in other pieces of the congress? >> so i think other part s of te congress are looking carefully at how we protect our elections at registration and the ballot box. new jersey is one of the few states without paper ballots, which is critical. we have provided some money from congress to protect the elections in that way, in the registration process at the ballot box but what we need to do is take a broader look at how russians are using what i would

call cy ops to influence the elections and that is making sure when people are in chat rooms, they know if they're talking to someone from moscow or if they're going to a protest, they know if that protest has been organized by people in their local community, their neighborhood, along with the values and ideals they want to protest or if that's something the russians have particularly instigated to divide us in this country, and that's what we're looking into. >> that's what they did. a lot of groups were instigated by the russians. >> when you talk about trying to make it more possible for people out there who are news participants, they want to be active participants in their democracy, getting information via facebook, different social media sites, what specifically would your legislation do that would flag for them or would require these tech companies to take action or assist these tech companies in taking action to say, hey, this person you're talking to who you think is

voter mike smith who might live in your community is a dummy account being run by a teenager in a bo itt farm. how would your legislation help people identify what is real and what is fake online? >> that's the key, identifying where information is coming from, so having our tech companies ensure that when you receive information that you can identify where that information is coming from. making sure when you go into a chat room, it's identified if that person is from russia or if that person is from a foreign country and we have some fec regulations regarding foreign influence into our election system, federal election regulation. so we can transfer some of those to the tech companies and that's kind of a new area. we want to make sure that we're telling the american people where information is coming from, while i think not regulating content. we do have free speech implications. we want people to have that.

i tell people if you're getting information from rt, you should know that's russian propaganda, and russian influence on some level. if you're getting information from sputnik, you should realize that that's not just like, you know, msnbc or fox or cnn, that is russian television, and that is a foreign power influencing how people in this country think. >> congresswoman, mikie sherrill, doing important work on our elections and important chamber of commerce work for parsipny. >> we'll see you with your blankets tomorrow, thanks congresswoman. the must read opinion pages are ahead, including one way that offers the one way democrats can defeat donald trump. "morning joe" is back in a moment. trump. "morning joe" is back in a moment this is the couple who wanted to get away

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president trump plans to hold a campaign rally two weeks from today in north carolina, and it happens to coincide with a highly anticipated event. president trump's rally is scheduled for the same day as the testimony of former special counsel robert mueller before the house judiciary and house intelligence committees. kristen soltis anderson, not surprised by this, the president has made a practice of counter programming. >> absolutely. recall back during the primary debates on the republican side when he threw himself a separate event instead of showing up on stage. this is something that he does a lot. but frankly, i don't even know that he would need to do a ton of counter programming to get voters attention away from the issue. i mean, what's been fascinating is since the rollout of the mueller report, you haven't seen really big changes in things like the president's approval, things like generic ballot, big political environment questions have not been shaped by the rollout of that report, and

haven't really changed even when robert mueller came out and gave his press conference saying, hey, everybody, read the report, in case you haven't yet, by the way, please read the report. i'm unsure exactly what will be different coming out of the hearing that is not already in the text of the report. but clearly, regardless, the president loves to do count r progra -- counter programs, unsurprising that he will decide to do a rally that will capture headlines. >> it will be interesting to see if robert mueller offers anyone new. kristen soltis anderson, thank you so much, happy 4th to you. the department of homeland security watchdog is warning of dangerous overcrowding at border patrol stations in texas. we are hearing from lawmakers who have been inside some of those facilities. plus, after a strong showing in last week's debate, several now new polls showing senator kamala harris surging. we'll take a look at the new numbers. you're watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe,"

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ready? whoa. >> yeah. you thought the women's world cup game yesterday was the big moment in sports. that was the big moment in sports. >> are you going to go visit the white house? >> i will go visit the white house. that's called the bottle cap challenge, something i didn't know about until yesterday. there's an mma fighter who did this first, where, you know, you get a big vodka bottle and kick it and touch it so it spins the cap off the bottle. they had me do it with jenna yesterday, on the "today" show, first try. tight pants. let's be honest. >> you have the legs for it. >> i do. i've got some reach on these legs, and now walter isaacson is going to do it. >> we've got a bottle here. >> walter has been stretching beforehand. welcome back to "morning joe." >> new orleans we learned to do that growing up. >> i bet you do. >> down on the corner. >> it is wednesday, july the 3rd, i'm willie geist, joe and mika have the day off. professor at princeton

university, eddie glaude, jr., and karine jean-pierre, and the professor of history at tulane university, walter isaacson, author and nbc political analyst, anna, and former congressman, david jolly who left the republican party to become an independent. have you tried the bottle cap challenge yet? >> no, i got some google searching to do as soon as i leave the studio, willie. >> harder than it looks. we appreciate you being here. let's dig in. a federal judge blocking the trump administration's policy that would keep thousands of asylum seekers locked up indefinitely while they wait for their cases to be decided. a u.s. judicial judge said it was unconstitutional violating the right to do process. the government must give asylum seekers bond hearings or release them. after attorney general william barr said the u.s. would no

longer offer bond hearings to asylum seekers but would keep them in custody as a part of the trump administration's crack down on illegal crossings, as the inspector general for the department of homeland security warnings of dangerous overcrowding at migrant facilities in texas. these images coming from a new report by government investigators who made unannounced inspections at five border patrol facilities and two ports of entry in the rio grande valley region of texas. this was during the week of june 10th. investigators finding children at the facilities did not have access to showers, and had to sleep on concrete floors. they reported seasoning l adults -- single adults being held in standing room conditions for days, along with serious concerns of health risks. senior managers at several facilities raised security concerns for their agents and for the detainees, one calling the situation a ticking time bomb. the acting dhs inspector general wrote in the report, quote, we

encourage the department of homeland security to take immediate steps to alleviate dangerous overcrowding and prolonged detention of children and adults in the rio grande valley. we were talking earlier this morning. we had democrats over the last couple of days going down, eyewitness accounts, reporting what they saw. but this report in some ways is more damming because it comes from an independent inspector general for the department of homeland security. >> it's bar barrism, whatever ideology you have, whoever you voted for, whatever party affiliation you have, who can tolerate those photographs being how our government, because it is our government regardless of who's in charge of it, treats human beings. i mean, people have come to this country for decades and decades to escape places that look like that. and now this is happening in this country. and you know, from the moment

trump was elected, there was this conversation we had on this show and elsewhere, are our institutions strong enough to withstand this man, and i think some of the institutions have done well, the courts have shown certain power as in this story, but we keep waiting for something worse than this. this is what it looks like to have a great country of great institutions, of a civil service that is supposedly neutral be turned into a para military force jailing children in what i would agree are concentration camp like conditions on the border of this country, and when you combine it with the president trying to and failing to infiltrate the census and doctoring that, when you combine that with tanks and trucks rolling into the washington yesterday to have a military parade that was inspired by vladimir putin and kim jong un, the corrosion of our institutions in service of this president who probably doesn't love himself but wants to

corrode our institution so that maybe we will love him, it's very very disturbing. >> so walter, we know that there are going to be a couple of hearings, judiciary and oversight, elijah cummings, jerry nadler, about images we have seen, and about what we have been reading about for the last several months at the border. the question is we know what's happening. it's right in front of us, it's on the front page of the newspaper, what changes, how does it change. >> we're entering july 4th weekend, now, it's always useful when we get to a holiday to remember what the holiday is all about. and july 4th is fundamentally about our values, not just about military might. it's not a veterans day parade type holiday. it's important the most important sentence anybody has written is we hold these truths to be self-evident, endowed by the creator with certain ina inalienable rights.

we can take july 4th and not make it an authoritarian military celebration of this administration, the way some ten pot would do in other countries, are our values being implemented every day especially at the border because we are a nation of immigrants. that's what we should all bei doing on july 4th and instead of blaming this on everybody else, the old line from pogo, we have met the enemy, and he is us. we're just not, you know, reacting to this the way patriotic americans should react to it. >> david jolly if you're still sitting in congress this morning, what are you doing as of today? what are you doing next week in those hearings to stop what we're seeing down at the border? >> first of all, i would move those hearings to prime time. we did that actually during some of the failures of the va with the wait list, we had the hearings in prime time to try to capture the hearts and minds of the american people, if you

will, but there has been legislation introduced in the past and frankly cory booker spoke to it that would dramatically escalate the resources going to the border, not to build additional holding facilities, but willie, in congress, i would be painting a picture of a nation that says we are going to receive these individuals. we are going to keep families united. we are going to dramatically escalate health care resources, education resources, we're going to teach these children while they're there. we will have humane and first world processing facilities where frankly, families even if they ultimately are returned to their home country because they do not have a legal claim to status here are actually being returned in a healthier psychological state, having been exposed to the best character of the united states. that is what we can do even as we continue to enforce the laws and revisit what are the claims that we want to allow as being eligible for establishing legal status here in the united states. >> i guess the question, eddie

is what do you do about an administration, the one that's in charges that's okay with the pictures and in fact is part of the policy of deterrence, they believe if you see the pictures, you're not going to want to come to the border. >> the first thing we have to do is the american public has to make its voice known and we are beginning to see that. we have to have a vigorous policy debate. i think julian castro's claim about what's driving this crisis, his proposal that we decriminalize what's happening at the border that's driving people to these facilities and the like. i'm sitting here thinking about july 5th, 1852, fourth of july, frederick douglass, and douglass at that moment was calling attention to the contradiction that's at the heart of the country, that here we have given voice to these principals, this

statement about we're all created equal, and revealing the lie that's at the heart of it. so part of who we are, who we've been, has always been this contradiction that what we're seeing on the border, willie is not just simply the ugliness of donald trump, it's an ugliness that's always been the underbelly of this fragile experiment in democracy, and we've challenged it in these moments, when it's kind of, when it becomes pronounced. there's a voice, defending the principals. those voices show up and vigorously argue for the best of who we are. so when we see babies being incarcerated, when we see the conditions of these camps, we have to forcefully put forward our vision of who we aspire to be in this moment. so it's not only a policy debate, it's not only about trump, it's about who we take ourselves to be.

so this is a moral crisis of our time, a part of it at least. so we need to respond to it accordingly. >> yeah, i think you're absolutely right, professor. there are two more things i want to lean into that you said. julian castro, section 1325, the decriminalizing of the migrant is what basically is happening, and the reason julian castro brought that up is because of the zero tolerance, is because of the separation of family, is because what we have been seeing with kids in cages and one of the things, you know, people have, you know, talked about, people are commenting if we should be going that way, but the problem is there's such bad things, we're such in a hole be this administration that we have to do big things to get ourselves out of this hole. i give him credit for introducing that and talking about it, and having a real conversation at the debate last week, and also you talked about the american public and yesterday we saw protests out there, you talked about it a little bit in the last hour, of folks going out there and saying close the camps, and they went to district offices of

republicans and that's what needs to be happening. the american public needs to stand up and say something and speak very loudly, otherwise we're not going to see much movement because we don't see a bipartisanship in congress right now. >> the surprising thing is not that those protests happened but that we haven't seen thousands of protests like that. >> i agree. >> and when you said, i think willie said it, but when you say that he's doing this perhaps deliberately to dissuade people from trying to get to the united states, the real question is momoe is i'll pose it to you all is he doing it deliberately for political advantage does he think it will help him in the united states. >> i think to pick up on both of your points, the way we are used to covering a story like this is the government is failing to do something better. you are right. this is the point. this is the policy. and to your point about july 4th, these pictures are designed

to change the meaning of america in the eyes of the world. what they really want to happen, they want to stop this upstream. they want someone in a far away country to see that picture and think twice about ever dreaming about america, so to eddie's point about the fourth of july and the 5th an idea i have for "morning joe" viewers as you celebrate july 4th tomorrow, raise a glass to what you love about this country, these ideals you talk about. i would ask people to also raise a july 5th toast tomorrow and think about what you want to do over the next year to make the country, the underbelly align a little bit more with the ideals because we all have tremendous work to do to narrow that gap. >> so david jolly, these are big moral conversations we're having about the country but there is a practical question, too, about how to stop this, how this thing that's happening right now as we sit here today, these people are

overcrowded in these detention centers. what can be done to stop this, during an administration, jeff sessions said outloud, that deterrence is the policy. we want to have this image out there so people don't come to the country. what can be done to stop what we're seeing on the border? >> yeah, and there's very little congress can do. frankly, the most immediate means is they can pass a provision in an appropriations bill that says none of the funds may be used for the following activities but the senate wouldn't agree to it. the president would veto it. the reality is there's very little congress can do. where i am helpful is we are one whistle blower away from this being recorded as one of the great failures of the modern administration, much like unfortunately we saw after katrina, and we saw through the lens of hindsight, many of the administration failures. this is one of those chapters where we are witnessing an administration failure and once a whistle blower begins to come forward, we will see that.

i also have hope, though, that one talented attorney and a federal judge with conviction has an opportunity to blow this wide open, and we are beginning to see the ground work of some of these cases being laid. we are seeing attorneys demand entrance to see clients. we are seeing cases being filed, the ig report now provides further evidence. my hope on this is in the courts and if not the court, then it looks like we may have to wait until november of 2020 where this becomes an issue, which the american people can speak with conviction. >> so eddie, the argument we're hearing is that the system that we have at the border just wasn't designed to take this many people, and the reason people are being held more than 72 hours, which is the law, is because we have nowhere to send them. we don't have a system that can accommodate all the people who are now coming to the border. >> on it face, that seems to me to be true. the question we have to ask is why. >> right. >> so why are there not enough

beds in the i.c.e. facilities, right. why has homeland security stretched, you know, to the core. what's going on. in so many ways, this has been a manufactured crisis, that has morphed into a genuine humanitarian crisis, right, and then he doubles down. he doubles down, you said in the first hour, right, that it was the policy, the objective is cruelty. he's doubled down. we were reading reports that he's ordered i.c.e. to start raids july 5th. and all of this has everything to do with a deep seated anxiety about the demographic shifts in the country. he's really really trying to staunch, in some ways, right, the shifting, the change that is happening in the country. so the crisis is real. we can't deny that. how it became a crisis, we can look that squarely in the face and try to respond to that at its core.

>> we have a lot more to talk about this morning. david jolly, thank you so much. happy 4th to you. still ahead on "morning joe," house ways and means committee member, dan kildee telling us about the new lawsuit by house democrats, seeking president trump's tax returns rch. a new op-ed argues one way democrats can win in the next election is to be radically anti-war. we'll speak to the authors of that report next. we'll spk eato the authors of that report next this is rick blomquist.

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an icon of american business is being remembered this morning with the passing of lee iacocca, known as the father of the mustang, midwife to the minivan, rescuer of chrysler and restorer of the statue of liberty. iacocca was born in allentown, pennsylvania. his family sold hot dogs while he made automobiles his trade, hi parents came through ellis

island through italy. he rose through the ranks of ford, and led chrysler back from the brink of failure. he drove a multimillion dollar effort to renovate the statue of liberty, and ellis island, a tribute to his parents whose principles guided him as he once told nbc's tom brokaw in 1984. >> i knew nobody was going to say a nice italian boy is going to take care of them, and that's the work ethic, that's your parents, i mean, i think i told you this, i had to be first in my class. my class had 850, and i was 12th and it was like i did something wrong. my father. but he instilled in us that if you keep your nose to the grindstone, keep doing it, they won't care. he believe in the statue of liberty, and this freedom thing and your ability if you work, it

will finally pay off. you might take a lot of crap going up the ladder but it's worth it because you'll score. >> lee iacocca died yesterday at his home in bell air, he was 94 years old. what a story. >> i love the notion he talked about his parents coming in, as you were about to say with the statue of liberty. as we go into july 4th, you want that image of the statue of liberty in your mind, not that image of the border in your mind because people like lee iacocca came in and with that sort of immigrant, you know, grit, he s was able to turn around two different car companies, you know, the pride is back. this is before make america great again, he almost ran for president in 88. >> that's right. his parents came through ellis island and moved to allentown, pennsylvania, they came from italy. his father was a hot dog vendor, and lee iacocca grew up to be the man he became. >> and helped restore the statue of liberty. >> full circle.

his parents said past the statue of liberty, and he came in to save it all those years later. congressman dan kildee of michigan, a member of the house ways and budget committee, and democratic whip. thank you so much for being with us this morning, we appreciate it. >> thanks for having me on. >> you are sitting in the state of michigan, your thoughts on the life of lee iacocca, a man who had a big impact on your state. >> it felt like he was always around and always doing big things. he was a bombastic character, there's no question about that, but, you know, i think the point that was made about the fact that he's an immigrant story, his story of one that people come to the united states to do big things. i think it's a good reminder that there are still people who are coming here who are capable of doing really big things, and lee's legacy, i think is his whole life story, and if nothing else to be remembered for delivering to us the mustang.

what a great car. just an iconic american vehicle. >> that's a pretty good vehicle. >> did you have a mustang, willie? >> i did no the. >> you had a mustang? >> i drove it up to college. it was baby blue. it is not the coolest mustang on the road, but i love it hd it. >> congressman, let me ask you about the lawsuit that was filed, richard neal, filed a lawsuit in district court against the trump administration in an effort to get access to the president's tax returns. that's something you and others have been after for a long time. do you believe now you'll actually see them? >> i think ultimately we will. the question is how quickly the courts will act, but i think in this case, the law is not ambiguous. section 6103 of the tax code makes it clear that upon request that the treasury department shall deliver a return to the chairman of the committee. it doesn't say if the president finds it convenient or if he's

not bothered by it or doesn't exempt the president or any other individual from it, so it's clear. but you know, there are two questions here, one, the fundamental question that we're pursuing and that is whether or not the irs is properly enforcing law on the president of the united states. hi his behavior and everything that's gone on gives us real curious impr curiosity about that. the bigger question now is whether or not this president can exempt himself from law when he chooses to. and i think the case will be settled and both of those questions, i think, are going to be important as this case moves forward and hopefully quickly. >> hey there, congressman, thank you for being on, this is karine jean-pierre. one of the questions i get asked a lot by people is why did you guys take so long to put forth the lawsuit? why not do it, you know, six months ago when you guys took over and when the house took over congress? >> it's a good question, and i

know a lot of members of the committee and my colleagues were anxious about this, but i think the chairman has been clearly deliberate, working with house council to make sure that we get this right. this is unprecedented. the fact that we have to sue in order to execute this law, the fact that we have a president who's so popaque that it takes s to this place. number one. we have to get it right. we're five months into the committee being formed and it was only last month that we acted as a house to empower the committee chairs to pursue legal remedies when the administration fails to comply. so i understand the frustration. i get it except i think the chairman's position has been, look, it's better to get this right than to get it very fast, and now we're going to be before a judge. i think we have a case that is very strong because we have taken our time and worked with the house council to get it right, and now we'll go forward. >> congressman, aman here, a question for you about this and other efforts to get documents

information from the administration. when you have an administration that just says no to subpoenas, as though they are, you know, just whispered suggestions and refuses to comply with requests like this, you have your lawsuit, we'll see where that goes, but it seems to me that our system was actually quite dependent on people being honorable people who complied with these things, even they weren't forced to. what recourses do they have that are more extreme than requests and subpoenas, do you need to call on whistle blowers from the irs to step up. do you need to call on states, new york state and others to do things that frankly you and congress feel too anemic to be able to pull off given this presidency and the administration. >> i think obviously this unprecedented presidency challenges all of these enormous, the fact that a subpoena would simply be denied. the orders to administration officials to deny requests to

come testify before committees have become routine, so i think we have to use every tool available to us, and this among other reasons, principally apply reading of the mueller -- principally apply reading of the mueller record caused me to come to the conclusion that we should open an impeachment inquiry. that inquiry would give us, i think, a much more robust set of capabilities to get answers to questions and to force the administration to comply with these requests. ultimately, however, even if we're not successful in getting this information, it's important that the american public see up close what this administration is doing. circling the wagons, putting donald trump's interest, his personal interests ahead of everyone else, including the country's interest. it's important that they see that, because the ultimate jury in any question will be the

american people. >> the treasury secretary stone walled you on the tax returns, now it's in the hands ot courts. we'll see where -- hands of the courts. we'll see where it ends up. happy 4th to you. >> happy 4th to everyone. best selling author, malcolm gladwell is a back with a new season of revisionist history, what it takes to get into the law school and how to think like a jesuit. plus, human rights watch says the north korean government uses forced labor from ordinary citizens to control its people and sustain its economy and a significant majority of north koreans must perform unpaid labor at some point in theirs lives. white house adviser peter na var c -- navarro calls it calm on the peninsula. we'll play that sound next. peninsula. we'll play that sound next if you live with diabetes,

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many diplomatic veterans from across the political spectrum have criticized president trump's trip across the dmz into north korea this week for what they say is giving dictator, kim jong un another photo op without delivering policy results, but assistant to the president, peter navarro claims north koreans are living

in relative prosperity thanks to president trump. >> let's think about the world we live in. if president trump were not in office, we would see nuclear bombs, detonating under north korean soil as they made bigger and bigger bomb tests. we would see missiles flying over south korea and japan going further and further towards american shores. we're not seeing any of that. what we have now is a relative calm, peace and prosperity on the peninsula, as we move towards denuclearization. >> according to human rights watch, the north korean government uses forced labor from ordinary citizens, including children to control its people and sustain its economy and a significant majority of north koreans must perform unpaid labor at some point in their lives and that's just the start of what's happening in north korea. joining us now, senior fellow at the ygroup foundation, new

foreign policy think tank funded by george soros and the charles koch institute. here's one way democrats can defeat trump, be radically anti-war. good to see you. >> good morning. >> before we hop into your op-ed, mark, i want to start with what we heard there. the argument from the trump administration is relative peace means for the moment anyway there's not a direct threat that north korea is going to lob a weapon into south korea and there's been a little space given perhaps to start talking. >> right. >> it's a truism that you don't typically bomb countries that you're engaged with diplomatically, but i mean, peter navarro clip shows how unhinged the trump administration is from reality. the north koreans are living in peace and prosperity, that's nuts. >> let's talk about one way democrats can defeat trump, be radically anti-war, it's the peace you coauthored in the guardian. we talked about before you came

on the air, apparently it's a radical position to talk about the wars that have been going on for almost 18 years. >> it is, and it shouldn't be. we need to really come to grips with the violence that the united states unfortunately has been inflicting to no gain to ourselves, really. and it's dragging on without end. and that's why you see this slogan of ending endless wars that's catching fire, and i think the democratic candidates have an opportunity here to take it seriously and to take a principled stand from more peaceful foreign policy as they try to figure out a message they can take to the voters and then take against donald trump in the general election. but they can't keep sending these mixed messages. i know donald trump's foreign policy is all over the place. but it really requires a clear direction for foreign policy and not just being against trump from every which way. >> and ironically, mark, donald trump a few years ago ran on

this, we're going to end these wars, bring everybody home, bring our boys home, all the rest of it, what specifically would you like to hear from some of these democrats. >> i would like the democrats to represent the will of the american people. in democracy, it's predicated upon popular support, and so, you know, donald trump isn't the only one, barack obama ran on bringing our troops home from afghanistan. even before 9/11 george w. bush said we're going to stop being the country of nation building. all of these presidents run on, and clinton it's the economy, stupid, all these presidents run on doing less in the world and focussing more at home. it's a popular message. then they get to office and get people like john bolton, mike pompeo in their ear, and disregard largely the popular will, so you know, i think we're starting to see the 2020 democrats come out in support of ending rapidly the war in afghanistan, investing more in infrastructure, making more modest investments in the defense department and winding

down our military spending so that we can prioritize the major investments we need to do here at home. >> walter, not only are we talking about unwinding these wars, there's talk of war with iran coming from the white house. >> it's interesting that some of the people, including people on the populist right and left are saying that's nuts too. we don't need to open another front in the endless wars we're fighting in the middle east, and you were talking earlier, i don't know if you want to talk about it, about, you know, some people on other networks that helped dissuade trump. >> it's not a skecret. it's an open fact, tucker carlson called the president and effectively explained to him why it would be so dangerous to go to war with iran. >> that would be the most convulsive thing to happen if all of a sudden we got into a war with iran while we were still cleaning up in iraq, and still trying to do afghanistan.

i wanted to ask real quickly on the quincy project which you haven't talked about. explain that to me, and start with whether or not it's named after john quincy adams. >> it is named after john quincy adams. >> that was a great speech you gave. >> july 4th, and there's john quincy adams who had been president, goes back to the house of representatives and gives a july 4th speech. >> exactly, and he says that the united states should not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy and talks about how destructive that would be, not just internationally, but also to our own civic life in the united states. >> the defenders of freedom in our own borders. >> exactly. the well wishers of premium and prosperity to everybody around the world but champions only of our own i think is the paraphrase of that. you were talking willie about iran. it's notable that a majority of the american people and including a majority of democrats supported donald

trump's decision to pull back those fighter pilots, right, where have the 2020 democrats been on making a forceful and blunt and bold claim that donald trump's policies have put us into this position in the first place where war with iran looks increasingly likely after two quagmires in the middle east, that's not what the american people want, and the democrats have been largely muted on that topic. >> one of the problems of the democrats is they didn't know how to respond when he pulls back. when he pulled back, i said, hey, that's good, most democratic candidates saying it's horrible, he went up to the brink of war and then he backed down, he blinked, he wasn't courageous, it's the old liberal instinct that they brought to the democratic party. i thought the democrats would say he was right this time to pull back. >> give him that, and say the sanctions that he's playing are not just doing destruction and making the iranian government

flail about but imperilling american interests in that part of the world. the americans have no skin in that game. >> just wanted to say it's an interesting marriage, george soros and the koch brothers, how did that happen? >> really this happened with five of us thinking we need a fundamental rethink of america's place in the world that is fit for the 21st century. it's a century where thank goodness we have overcome colonial empires, the world has moved past the cold war but toortoo often we have not moved on, acted like an empire, inflated adversaries like iran into a grand ideological enemies. we were fortunate enough to get these two very different people on board, but, you know, i think what the excitement about this project suggests to me, just from the news that we're setting up, we haven't opened yet, it suggests to me a real hunger in the american people for some different alternatives coming

out of washington, d.c. >> and walter is very excited about the name as you can tell. >> i still think john quincy adams, one of the great underwriter presidents of our history. >> that's high praise. >> and on july 4th, we should always remember the great statesmen of america, including john quincy adams. >> it's worth me reading the speech and it's worth thinking about how it fits the 21st century, too. we have, i think, unfortunately a nativist movement in this country, and i don't think we have a nativist movement in 2019 or in 2015, 16 without years of people from both political parties, unfortunately, telling the american people that we are in peril from foreigners who want to kill us. >> and send your kids to war, not our kids. >> exactly. >> and we're going to saddle the next generation with the tax burden too. >> thank you for being here. let's hope the candidates are listening. >> mark hannah, thanks both,

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urban violence continues to be an issue in some of the country's largest cities will homicide rates continue to climb. in philadelphia, there have been 164 homicides as of yesterday. up 8% from last year, according to its police department. south of philly, baltimore city has seen 159 homicides so far this year, according to the baltimore sun, and in chicago, while shootings and violent crimes are down for the first half of the year, the "sun times" reports there have been more than 240 homicides in the city in 2019 so far. our next guest is taking a closer look at the effect of urban violence, and how we can solve that problem. thomas app joins us now, a senior fellow at the harvard

kennedy school of government and the author of the new book, bleeding out, the devastating consequences of urban violence and a bold new plan for peace in the straeets. great to have you here, we have a lot of people who want to get in on the conversation that is so important right now. i want to point on the city i'm sitting in, on track so set a new low in homicides since the 1950s, they set a record in 2017, could be even fewer this year, new york city is doing something right in that regard. what can these other cities learn from it? >> sure, there's a lot to learn from new york city. the first thing is that i think new york city is doing a lot of what i've recommended in the book in terms of following three fundamental principles, first, focus. focussing on the people and places that are driving the majority of the violence in any given city. second, balance. using both the carrot and the

stick, using enforcement, targeted enforcement but also widespread prevention and treatment, and finally, fairness, you have to attend to the perceived legitimacy of law enforcement in your has strugglh many of these things but it has made progress. lastly i would point out something ha is not comparable to other cities, unfortunately, which is that new york city is an extremely wealthy city and has more money to spend on these issues. >> eddie glaude, thank you so much for the book, but how do you address this question without falling into the old trap of how we talk about urban violence, that it becomes in some ways a kind of racial dog whistle in our politics where it is a source of a kind of moral panic that leads to punitive measures. how do we actually address the issue directly and substantively without it triggering this kind of underside of our politics in some ways? >> i think it's such a great

question. when the issue of urban violence comes up, you see people even sensationalizing the issue or minimizing the issue, and really, i think the best idea is to simply look at the evidence and 30 years of social science tells us that urban violence is extremely concentrated among a very small number of people and places in any given jurisdiction. and what that means is that we have to avoid stigmatizing entire communities with this broad brush of dangerousness or violence. even in the most allegedly dangerous community, the vast majority of people are not violent, and the vast majority of that neighborhood's geography is not violent, so i think that's an important point to keep in mind. >> i'm curious what the role of the black lives matter movement and the larger calling attention to police abuses of power, shooting of unarmed people, what effect that influential movement

has had on what we're seeing happen in cities around the country? >> sure. i think that, you know, it's impossible to talk about this subject without talking about the ongoing crisis of confidence in the american criminal justice system, and black lives matter figures prominently in that. one of the things that i discovered in the course of my research is when the legitimacy, the perceived legitimacy of the criminal justice system declines in the eyes of the community. that is actually -- that can actually trigger a rise in violence because if people don't believe in the system, they won't use it. they won't serve as jurors. they won't testify in court. they won't offer information to the police, and perhaps, most importantly conflicts that they might have resolved by calling the police they'll now handle themselves, and that can lead to these vicious cycles of retaliation that we see far too often. >> hey there, thomas, this is careen john pierre.

you talk about predictive policing and when some folks hear that they might think of perha programs like stop and frisk. how do you -- what do you say to them if that's where you go and that's what you think when you use that word that phrasing. >> actually, in the book i avoid that word specifically because it is so weighted. i do talk about hot spots policing, which the research shows has consistently been able to reduce crime and violence, but i think what's important to understand is that while when we're talking about urban violence, sometimes targeted enforcement measures are called for, it's really important that they be really limited to the most dangerous people in a given area and that we avoid these broad brushes of zero tolerance approaches that really don't

distinguish between who's at risk and who isn't in these communities. >> thomas, walter isaacson here. we've seen crime, especially violent crime in some places go down rather dramatically over the past 10, 15 years. i know you talk about a lot of factors that could do this in your book, but are there other factors that seem almost out of the blue like the rise of cell phone usage or the change in different types of drugs people are using that affect the rates of violent crime and may be causing this downward trend we're enjoying at the moment? >> sure, so criminologists have been studying the -- what's known as the great crime decline for now decades, and you know, there are some potential answers, but no one has absolute confidence about what has caused the decline except that they're confident that it's not just one thing, so changing drug markets, the decline of the crack wars,

you know, improvements in the economy, actually increases in incarceration while they triggered massive collateral consequences and were far greater than what was necessary did have a small impact on crime rates. so there's lots of different things. you mentioned technology. some people mentioned things like lead. all of these things were being studied but we don't have a conclusive answer. >> thomas argues urban violence is solvable. he makes the case in the book "bleeding out, the devastating consequences of urban violence and a bold new plan for peace in the streets." thomas, thanks so much for being here. we appreciate it. >> my pleasure. >> still ahead on "morning joe" the department of homeland security's watchdog has released photos. republican congressman will herd who represents more of the u.s./mexico border than any

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good morning, welcome to "morning joe" on a beautiful morning, the day before the fourth of july, i'm willie geist. we've got professor princeton university eddie glaude juror,

msnbc contributor karine jean-pierre and the cofounder of "axios" mike allen. you find out who your friends are when you ask them to come on the day before the 4th of july, and i am surrounded by them here this morning. >> we love you willie. >> thank you very much. may i start please with the soccer match that took place yesterday. kristen i know you watched it. i was up watching it as well. unbelievable. alex morgan the decider with that header into the corner of the net, 2-1 for the american team in the semifinal was the victory over england in the world kucup. they move on now, just a thrilling game. the brits came back and tied it up. it was called back on a penalty. we stopped a penalty kick. i couldn't breathe for about two hours, kristen. >> oh, i was so nervous at the beginning when they said that megan rapinoe wasn't going to be in the lineup, and we didn't know why for a while. she's been such a rock star in this world cup. it really came down, i mean that keeper had such an incredible game and stopping that penalty

late really i think was -- she was the woman of the match by far. >> and you saw alex morgan there sipping a little tea after what ended up being the game winning goal. they move on now. they play sweden or netherlands. that other semifinal is today, and that big final, world cup final with team usa the women's national team is on sunday. congrats to them, can't wait to watch and perfect for the fourth of july week. we've got a lot going on. the latest on president trump's plans for the 4th, and yes, the tanks as you can see have arrived. also another national poll showing former vice president joe biden falling significantly after last week's debate and senator kamala harris rising. we've got the new numbers out of iowa as well. also a controversial question about citizenship will be left off the 2020 census. president trump is calling it a sad day. we'll have more on that, and the fight over the president's personal financial information escalates with house democrats now suing the treasury department and the irs for

access to the president's tax returns. but we begin with a federal judge blocking the trump administration's policy that would keep thousands of asylum seekers locked up indefinitely while they wait for their cases to be decided. a u.s. district court judge in seattle ruled yesterday the order was unconstitutional violating migrant's fifth amendment right to due process. the judge saying the government must give asylum seekers bond hearings within seven days or release them. this after attorney general william barr announced in april the u.s. would no longer offer bond hearings to asylum seekers and would instead keep them in custody as part of the trump administration's crackdown on illegal border crossings. the judge's decision comes as the inspector general for the department of homeland security warnings of, quote, dangerous overcrowding at migrant facilities in texas. these images come from a new report by government investigators who made unannounced inspections at five border patrol facilities and two

ports of entries in the rio grande valley region of texas during the week of june 10th. investigators there found children at the facilities did not have access to showers. they had to sleep on concrete floors. it also reported single adults being held in standing room only conditions for days along with serious concerns about health risks. according to the report, senior managers at several facilities raised security concerns for their agents and for the detainees, one calling the situation a ticking time bomb. the acting dhs inspector general wrote in the report, quote, we encourage the department of homeland security to take immediate steps to alleviate dangerous overcrowding and prolonged detention of children and adults in the rio grande valley. a group of congressional lawmakers visit add detention center for unaccompanied children in homestead, florida, congresswoman fed r

congresswoman frederica wilson vowed to stay there until she could see and speak to the young girls being held inside the facility. another member of congress said he was bothered by the lack of education available to the children. this marked the second straight day of lawmakers inspecting government facilities. on monday several members of congress toured border patrol stations in texas. here's what some of them told msnbc about that experience. >> as soon as they realized that we were congress members, tears were rolling down their faces as they talked about their conditions. they said that they have no idea when they were going to leave. they have been there over 50 days. they said that they have been separated from their children. >> there was a point where one of the women who was cuban, she spoke some english, and in front of all of us many of the legislators and also several cbp officers she challenged them very directly and said that they were not telling the truth about the standard of care and the treatment, and she said that some of the agents had had used derogatory words, language

against the women. >> we saw a little boy, he must have been 4 years old. they locked up the kids at clint so that members of congress could not talk to them, and so they locked these kids up. this little boy saw us. he ran up to the plek see glapl, put his hands up, and you could tell by his mouth he was asking for his dad. it's heartbreaking. >> those are members of congress giving eyewitness accounts of what they saw, nancy pelosi after hearing the inspector general's reports said the report provides a shocking window into the dangerous and dehumanizing conditions the trump administration is inflicting on children and families. the inhumanity at the border is a challenge to the conscience of america. >> it was created by this administration. they have created this humanitarian crisis at the border. this is the thing i was thinking about the other day which was the cruelty that we see from this administration, the cruelty of their policy, the cruelty is not a by-product.

the cruelty is actually a policy. that is the thing that's devastating, and he's doing it in our name. cajun babies, cajun kids separating them from their families all in our name. young people have died. we just heard about a 30-year-old man who died this week. i appreciate the congress going down and bearing witness. i think that's incredibly important because they have the power and clearly we're talking about it because they're down there, but they need to be doing more. they need to bring forth the heads of the dhs, hhs, customs, i.c.e., and just bring them into a committee hearing and put it live on tv, have them answer questions to the american people as to what is going on down there and what are they doing to fix it, and they need to be voting every day to condemn their activities at the southern border. >> and in fact, eddie, there will be a hearing next week. elijah cummings has arranged for that to happen. he's called for high level people to come through. there's some people who catch

democrats talk about this, and they think it's a political issue in some way. they'll say of course aoc is going off, but it's real hard to argue with the inspector general of the department of homeland security who's not pushing an agenda or perceived agenda. >> and you know, you juxtaposed the report from the acting inspector general with the comments that -- from the head of the department of homeland security saying this was sensational, that many of these comments weren't corroborated, and then their own internal office and internal documents showing and proving that what the congressperson said about what was happening in those detention facilities were actually true. but what's interesting here, though, willie, is this. this is not happening in some far away place. this is not happening out of view. it's happening in plain sight, and so when you know that and one of the facilities in the report, close to 50 children under the age of 7 have been held for more than two weeks,

when you hear that people don't have access to clothes, aren't being able to shower, are being fed baloney sandwiches as the basis of their diet. when you see that kind of overcrowding, people sitting in standing room only places. this is not only a result of incompetence, it is also a policy of cruelty, and we are complic complicit. what we've seen over the last couple of days across the country, in some ways wildcat protests close the camps, close the camps. so we continue -- as long as we shed light on this issue, we think the american -- i think the american people will continue, will begin to at least, let me say this, begin to protest loudly. this is not who we are supposed to be. it's not consistent with our values, but it's in some ways consistent with our history. >> so house speaker nancy pelosi i mentioned she wrote a letter to president trump on monday

urging him to improve the conditions at those border patrol facilities. her request includes setting requirements for the provision of water along with appropriate nutrition, hygiene and sanitation needs. house democrats also are demanding to hear from two top officials from the department of homeland security including acting dhs secretary kevin mcaleenan. according to "politico" democrats have summoned the acting commissioner of customs and border patrol which has been consumed with another scandal, a facebook group with thousands of current and former agents reportedly posting racist and sexist images of democratic lawmakers and joking about the death of migrants. house oversight committee chairman elijah cummings sent a letter to facebook officials requesting all postings and comments including images, videos, and texts and any deleted content from the group. here is the chairman of the house judiciary committee jerry nadler. >> all the people who are in

those detention facilities are migrants. all are entitled to humanity, to decent treatment, to decent judicial adjudication and not to be tortured or recorded as refuse. all the people in the administration who have done this, who have permitted it are guilty of child abuse, which is a crime. we ought to prosecute. >> mike allen the visits this week by congressional democrats put together with this story about the facebook group reported to be border patrol agents and put together now with the inspector general's report from the department of homeland security have painted a very bleak picture and literally in some cases we're seeing the photographs and the pictures from inside those cells. does this change the conversation? does this move the needle? does this improve things? so far that kind of attention

hasn't done much down at the border. >> you make a great point, now that we're seeing the vivid images. now that we can picture it. now that it has flesh and blood makes such a difference. until now too much of it has been a washington story. too often it has been written about as a budget story or a statistical story, and now starting with that stark photograph of the father and daughter who didn't make it across the rio grande and now first hearing the tales from inside these facilities from the lawyers now congress people seeing it with their own eyes that for sure makes a difference, and until now both sides have been able to say it's the other side's fault. this is the moment that americans will say we don't want to hear about washington gridlock. we don't want our kids eating baloney sandwiches and begging for their dad. >> we're going to have much more on this story ahead, republican congressman will hurd of texas will be our guest.

yesterday morning we showed polls that had senator kamala harris 5 points behind joe biden nationally following last week's debate. another new poll shows the two candidates even closer. we'll dig into those new numbers ahead. bill karins has a look at the 4th of july forecast. >> a lot of people hitting the roads and airports today. florida one of the hottest spots in the country when you factor in the heat index. some spots up to 110. orlando 110, will feel like 109 this afternoon. heat advisories have been issued. the rest of the country, there's some scattered storms along the gulf coast, chicago, st. louis, indianapolis, even kansas city could dodge a few storms, washington, d.c., too. again, they're hit and miss. let's get into your 4th of july forecast. it's kind of the same thing with the hit and miss storms. the greatest concentration will be in the ohio valley. i think they'll be dying off by the time we go to the fireworks show. then the mid-atlantic region could have some storms, too. sunsets, temperatures will be a little cooler. still a little bit of leftover rain it looks like through the carolinas and there's a big

batch of rain in areas of south dakota. that's going to be one of the worst spots. as far as the macy's fireworks show goes here in new york city, live on nbc, it should be perfect, 80 degrees, partly cloudy skies. can't ask for a better 4th of july forecast than that. new york city is one of those spots we'll call it very warm, not quite hot. a little bit of humid. exactly what you'd want for your 4th of july weekend. you're watching morning joe. we'll be right back. we're reporters from the new york times. this melting pot of impacted species. everywhere is going to get touched by climate change.

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senator kamala harris beginning a three-day campaign tour of iowa today as yet more new polling shows her rapidly overtaking much of the democratic presidential field after last week's debate performance. a national poll from quinnipiac university shows joe biden down eight points from a month ago to 22% and kamala harris just two

points behind at 20%. she is up 13 points since just three weeks ago. senator elizabeth warren is in third with 14%, bernie sanders dropped six points to 13%, mayor pete buttigieg down four points to 4%, senator cory booker rising to 3%. this poll lines up with recent polls showing biden and sanders in decline with warren and harris on the rise. asked who has the best chance of winning against president trump, joe biden is seen as the strongest with 42%, but that's dropped from 56% in april. senator kamala harris has risen 12 points to 14% in this poll, while bernie sanders holds rel tuf tivoli steady at 13%. elizabeth warren is on the rise as well up sibs points. in iowa, a poll puts biden in

the lead with 24% and harris in second at 16%. warren there at 13%, and sanders who nearly shocked hillary clinton in the 2016 caucuses in fourth place with 9%. buttigieg, amy klobuchar and senator booker register in this poll which counts towards qualifying for the third debate in september. kristen, let's go back to the first set of the polls. we can get to iowa in just a second. that quinnipiac poll lining up with what we saw yesterday in a cnn poll, which is joe biden down and kamala harris rising quickly. >> that's right, i think a lot of this in part is people giving the broader field a look after these debates, a lot of speculation before them was joe biden's lead, mainly a product of name i.d. i don't think it was. i think there are a lot of folks, especially he had a large contingent of support among african-american voters that was pretty strong, but after those debates when he was pressed on his positions from the 1970s,

from the 1980s going back through his record, it's showing this is not just going to be a cake walk for him. you still have for the most part the same kind of first and second tier of candidates that you had before. the top five is still mostly the top five. none of the sort of 1% candidates had a breakout moment, but in that top five things have been shaken up in a way that has got to be making kamala harris and elizabeth warren pretty happy. >> we talked this a little bit in the miami, for those of us in the political world we know a lot about these candidates, we think we understand them, but to the country that was the introduction, last wednesday ask thursday, that was the introduction. who are these people, what do they believe? what's their style, and kamala harris showed them something. that's why she's up 13 points. >> she did. 18 million viewers, i think, on thursday, 15 million viewers on wednesday. that's a big, big haul, and who knows when you think about the social media aspect how many more millions of people watched. look, it was, it was an

opportunity to introduce yourself, to let people know who you are. we knew going in that bernie and biden had the name recognition. they had that name i.d., and so now they were both tested in many ways. bernie, we see that his numbers are soft. they are not as strong as we thought they were as well. and the women surged. the two women that won the debates are surging, and i think that says a lot. just to be clear, it's still very early. we're at the early stages of this. we have a long way to go, and it's fluid. >> and this was probablyi inevitable that joe biden wasn't going to sit there 20 points up and cruise along for a year for the nomination. what do you think his campaign takes out of his performance last week and the reaction in the polls this week? >> i think the strategy of just kind of assuming that you can run for the general election during the primary has to be thrown into the trash can. if they do that this is hillary clinton 2.0. i think he's going to have to be more aggressive in terms of laying out his policy positions

and trying to demonstrate to the base he's not a back ward looking candidate, right? that he actually can provide the leadership for moving forward, for addressing our contemporary problems and provide a vision for the country moving forward. what's interesting though in terms of the black voter support for biden, i'm remembering the primary before the 2008 election, and remember most the black political class and a lot of black folk generally supported hillary clinton while barack obama was kind of languishing in the shadows, and then suddenly something happened in iowa, and then so folks said oh, this guy might win. these practical voters who are attracted to name recognition, who are supporting someone who was a part of the first black administration will continue to look, and if kamala harris continues to rise we might see a change in those numbers. >> and it is early mike allen. joe biden has a big, and a wide and a deep base of support over

50 years almost in public life, but based on what he did on thursday night, the way he looked, the way he reacted to kamala harris when she came at him a little bit, should he be concerned about the future of this race? >> i can tell you the people around him are very concerned just from what we've been talking here, "the washington post," abc news poll popped up showing biden durable in the lead. why are people around him really worried? what they say to me is this what we were afraid of, it's not just looking rusty, but it's going into this debate making a mistake that no rookie would, and that is not being prepared, not having an offensive strategy, not being ready for some obvious hits that were coming, so another debate, july 30th, biden has the chance there to exceed expectations but people have been around these campaigns worry that the damage will not be in what actually happened this night, but what it shows about where the vice

president is. is he really ready to transcend the idea this he's a man out of time. it's just such fleeting impressions that come away from these debates. "axios" has some reporting up this morning from survey monkey, which did word clouds based on the talking to a thousand voters who watched each debate. what did you really remember, and from the first debate, it was speaking spanish was what broke through. but from the second debate, the word cloud, it's just the big word kamala harris. she had her moment like a prosecutor. she prepared and she stuck her landing. >> coming up on "morning joe," house democrats are escalating their fight for president trump's financial information by taking the administration to court. will lawmakers finally get access to the president's tax returns? we're back in a moment on "morning joe." ♪

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welcome back to "morning joe," house ways and means committee chairman richard neal filed a lawsuit against the trump administration yesterday in an effort to secure access to the president's tax returns. according to a committee spokesperson, neal issued subpoenas to the treasury department and irs after months of requesting the records from treasury secretary steve mnuchin. neal requested the documents in april. in a letter last month mnuchin rejected that request saying it lacks a legitimate legislative purpose. let's bring in legal analyst danny se va lows. >> obviously the tax returns of the president are something people have wanted to see for years now. >> i wouldn't bet heavily on congress on this one on the ways and means committee. here's why, federal law protects all of our tax returns from disclosure. there's very clear exceptions. one of those is upon request

from three committees, including ways and means, the treasury shall, not may, not if they feel like it shall turn over those returns for inspection. the law was specifically enacted to combat corruption way back in 1924. you know, before 1924, the president had the discretion as to whether or not to release these returns. congress looked at the issue back then and said, no, we're going to use a different system. that's the system we have today. on the trump administration side, they're arguing -- they're taking a step back and saying, look at the law in its whole. look at constitutionally congress needs a legitimate legislative purpose, and there isn't any here. it's an interesting argument, but ultimately virtually any purpose will suffice, and the itself doesn't require congress to put something out there. >> who adjudicates that question? richie neal says i need the tax returns, the white house says you're not getting the tax returns, now what? >> now they're going to court.

there's always an issue that this may be a political question the courts can't touch. in reality i think the courts do have jurisdiction over this issue, and i think ultimately looking at the language of the law, they will take the easy route, which is, look, it says shall, must. you shall turn over these returns. >> and the trump administration has shown a complete unwillingness to work with subpoenas on other issues so we'll see if they do here. >> it may work for them because the trump administration has learned what trump knew in his private life. if you wage a war of legal attrition, eventually you may win by running out the clock. that works exceptionally well with a congress that changes over every couple of years. >> big news yesterday. the 2020 census now has been sent to the printers without a question about citizenship. that's according to a justice department e-mail sent to plaintiffs in a related lawsuit. it's a vibt ri fvictory for civ advocates, a major defeat for the trump administration which tried to add the controversial

question to the constitutionally required count before being stopped last week before the supreme court. president trump who openly considered postponing the census until that question was approved promised to continue fighting for the question yesterday, tweeting a very sad time for america when the supreme court of the united states won't allow a question of is this person a citizen of the united states to be asked on the 2020 census. i have asked the department of commerce and the department of justice to do whatever is necessary to bring this most vital of questions and this very important case to a successful conclusion. what does that mean to you, danny? i'm not sure what it means. >> the last part was usa, usa, i guess i can agree with that sentiment because it is the fourth of july. >> of course, yeah. >> but it's interesting that trump is tweeting that because for the most part -- i don't know if he read the opinion because he mostly won. the supreme court mostly gave his administration a win right up until the last point. the supreme court held that, yes, the administration or the

government has the ability to include more than just head count type questions. they can ask questions about other things beyond just getting a number of people who love in the united states because we use the census for different things, but ultimately at the end, the court concluded that, well, you know, your reason for giving it isn't so great. you're going to send it back down, you're going to have a chance to address that again. on the whole, the administration came away mostly with a win, mostly, but time will tell. >> can we understand or can we see this policy, danny, as part of this overall attempt to address the demographic shifts in the country, the census question. there was a kind of political backdrop where a republican operative revealed that we can put this question on the census, and it could have this sort of impact in terms of who would be counted and how the nation would look in some ways and how that would play itself out politically. is this part of and did the court recognize that this was part of a broader, more sinister

or more insidious strategy on the part of the president? >> and you bring up such a good point. the ultimate question boils down this to this, if the government has the unfettered authority to do something under a law, does it matter that they may have done it whoa a bad motive? in other words, if you have the power no matter what to enact a law or to do something or to include a citizenship question, then the fact that you had a pretext and that was a bad pretext, maybe under the law it doesn't matter if you have that power. >> covered a lot of ground for us this morning, thanks so much, happy 4th. >> happy 4th. >> coming up on "morning joe," malcolm gladwell is tackling moments in history that he says often have been overlooked, misunderstood, or just deserve a second chance. the best selling author joins us to discuss the brand new season of his hit podcast "revisionist history." malcolm gladwell next on "morning joe."

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happy birthday alex morgan! >> that was u.s. co-captain alex m morgan of the u.s. women's national team with her own personal tea party celebrating her go ahead goal, which turned out to be the winning goal in the semifinal against england. our next guest is taking a closer look at that other famous tea party, author of five "new york times" best sellers, malcolm gladwell joins our conversation. the fourth season of his hit podcast revisionist history is back now. each episode re-examining something from the past and asking if we got it right the first time. as malcolm puts it, sometimes the past deserves second chance. the new episode tells the real story of what happened in boston on the night of december 16th, 1773. malcolm, it's great to have you at the table. >> thank you. >> i'm definitely not comfortable with this much intellectual power in one place, so i'm just going to step back

and let you guys talk. tell me about this -- i've interviewed you before about the podcast. you do these deep dives and fascinating questions, re-examining history. what did you find about the tea party? >> i should say before i go any further i'm canadian, so i was raised with the other side. you know, when we learned the history of what happened around the american independence, we learned the british side of it. >> right. >> so i have a bias coming in. there's no hiding that, and so i'm trying to expose americans to the way british -- the british made sense of what happened in those dreadful years between 1774 and 1776, and this is a slightly tongue in cheek episode in honor of independence day, and i decided to take the tea part of the boston tea party seriously, so like why was tea such a big deal, what tea were they drinking, what did it taste like? it is sort of interesting. it starts as a joke, but it gets

really interesting and serious because there's a reason that tea was chosen as the symbol of the revolution, as the symbol of trying to throw off the yolk of british oppression. i would think of it -- i would say it was to throw off the genial -- >> you're digging yourself a hole here. >> so i sort of like the first half is sort of digging into what's so special about tea, and i sit down with this hilarious, really fascinating guy who knows more, is a tea sommelier, and he sort of walks you through. then i get the core of the issue that the people who were throwing the tea overboard in boston harbor, were people who were smugglers, they were tea smugglers, and they objected to the tea act, because the tea act lowered the price of tea and made their own smuggled tea less useful, less economically viable, right? they were drug smugglers

protecting their turf. that's really the lesson of the boston tea party. it's about this whole thing begins with a bunch of criminals saying oh, no, the government's moving in on our drug operation. that's the kind of -- >> our sons of liberty? >> the sons of liberty, they're smugglers. >> dressed up as indians and pretending to be, you know, patriots. >> it wasn't about the tax? >> remember, this is actually a serious point of history that gets overlooked in american class rooms, i feel like, which is that -- this also parenthetically is a hilarious fact about the contemporary tea party movement. the tea act lowers the price of tea, so the people who were throwing tea into the harbor were not protesting the fact that tea by virtue of being heavily taxed was more expensive. they were protesting the fact that the tea act had lowered the price of tea, so the tea party is an objection to a tax cut, just to be clear.

that's why the contemporary tea party is so fantastically hilarious because it was a movement that completely misread and misunderstood the -- >> walter isaacson would you like a crack at that? >> yeah, well, i do think that it's nice to see how you can revise history from a canadian perspective. i wanted to go back, actually, because one of the podcasts i most love that you did this year and you do it in a very story telling way. >> yeah. >> involved justice scalia and law schools and how people get into law schools and how the wrong people get into law schools and how we get that whole notion of what is being really smart, we mess that up. >> that first two episodes of revisionist history were -- they began with me and my assistant taking the lsat. >> law school application. >> law school application test, so we lined up with hundreds of other people in downtown manhattan, sat there for like five hours, took this test, and

then i went and -- went to the people who make the test who administer and design the test, and i gave them my critique, and my big problem with the test was i ran out of time, and i wasn't -- it wasn't clear to me why they place such strict time limits on -- it's five sections of 35 minutes each, with 25 questions in each section. where is the notion that you have to do it in 35 minutes come from? i didn't realize that the legal profession was something that worked with a stopwatch, right? i didn't realize that lawyers were encouraged to -- my experience with lawyers is the opposite, that they go really slowly. >> by the hour. >> if that's the case, if the profession is about going slowly and being thoughtful, why is the test to get into the profession about going really fast? >> you can say that about any standardized test, the s.a.t. or whatever. >> let me ask you another question, i've done this podcast i try to do for dell technologies, it's called trail

blazers, and the one thing i've learned about podcasts is that they're the last great medium in the digital age for real story telling. >> yeah. >> that the rest of the digital age rewards hopping around and following links or being opinionat opinionated, and with you, michael lewis and others your podcast company has done, we've created this notion of let me tell you a narrative story. >> yeah. oh, yeah, so i mean my show is typically 40 minutes long, and it's -- you would have thought in today's digital age people wouldn't have that kind of parkpark patience. they absolutely do. people love the idea that we can tell these wonderful long narratives. >> in fact, it's refreshing in a society where everything is just sort of skimming the surface of any issue. walter isaacson took a pass on the first conversation, we'll let you have at it, professor. >> i want to go back to, let's think about the motivation for

revisionist history. the way in which you tell the story of the boston tea party reflects a certain set of interests that you have, so you announce that you're a canadian. >> oh, yeah. >> then you chuckled at the irony with regards to what was at the heart of the tea party, the boston tea party and how the current tea party sits in contradiction with it, so the choices we make, one way to put it, where we begin is the beginning of the problem, right? so how can we think about the boston tea party in different ways? so there's this wonderful essay in shadow and act by ralph elson where he talks about the boston tea party as ill lusttive, the deep racial melancholy at the heart of the american project. he said american life, when it's most american it is apt to be theatrical, so he says that they're donning the mask of native americans reveals a certain sort of anxiety, so i would love to, you know, because i'm interested in that, i would

take that tact. what is the motivation for you to engage in revisionist history? what are you setting out today? what are malcolm gladwell's politics when he takes up this stuff? you see because we don't tell these stories just because we want to tell stories. >> what you just said about ralph ellison's way of looking at the tea party is a lovely illustration of what i'm trying to do with revisionist history, which is to encourage people to think about a settled question in a new way and to remind them that you can -- you can walk all the way around something like the boston tea party and look at it six different ways. it depends whether you're coming at it as someone who loves ralph ellison, whether you're coming at it like me as an english born canadian, you know, patriot. whether you're coming at it as a conservative who's upset about, you know, oppressive government. these are all legitimate ways of

exploring a settled historical question, and i think we should be open to that. i'm not saying every other explanation of the boston tea party is inappropriate. i'm saying let's throw it wide open. let's all have fun with this, and maybe we can all learn from each other. >> the fourth season of the podcast revisionist history is available now. you can hear more about the genial king george. [ laughter ] >> as he describes it. malcolm gladwell, great to have you here. thank you so much. walter also mentioned his podcast trail blazers. you can check that out. while we're at it, check out the "morning joe" podcast and the "sunday sit-down" podcast. >> we'll get together. >> jan do you have a podcast, stage manager not yet. last week congress passed a spending package, texas congressman will hurd said it's good but not good enough, he joins us next to explain why next on "morning joe."

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welcome back to "morning joe." 8:52 in the united states capitol there on the eve of the fourth of july. the inspector general for the department of homeland security warns of, quote, dangerous overcrowding of migrant facilities in texas. we've been talking about it all morning. these images come from new reports of investigators that made five inspections at two

border facilities in the rio grande in texas on june 10. they said they did not have showers and people had to sleep on concrete floors. one called the situation a ticking time bomb. joining us now, members of the intelligence and appropriations committees, republican congressman will hurd of texas. he said, i'm grateful for the border spending bill, but it's still not enough. congressman, thank you for spending time with us this morning. your district covers more, i believe, than the united states congress. what did you expect from the report yesterday? >> the report was expected.

there were similar reports when this really started in 2014, the conditions in these facilities were worse than they are now. border patrol has been saying that these facilities were not built to handle the load that they've been seeing, and i've inspected many of these facilities, and you shouldn't hold anybody there for any length of time, let alone children. ultimately, what we need to be doing is i.c.e. and hhs, they need additional resources, they need additional facilities as well. border patrol was designed to hold people until they can turn them over. if they're an adult, they go to i.c.e., if they're a child, they go to hhs. and because hhs and i.c.e. is also overwhelmed, border patrol has had to get into the detention business, and they are not prepared for that. the people are not trained for that. when you look at the number of people in these facilities, it's crazy. clint has been in the news

lately, and, you know, a couple weeks ago the high water mark was 700 children in a facility that was designed to hold 107. when i was there on saturday, they had 60, and yesterday morning they only had 25, but this is -- this overcrowding is a symptom of a much larger problem, and that larger problem, which is fueling this humanitarian crisis on the border, is lack of economic opportunity, extreme poverty and violence, specifically in the northern triangle which is el salvador, guatemala and honduras, and we need to be addressing the root causes there. it's a fraction of the cost to do it there, before it gets to our border. >> those are the long-term solutions, to invest in those countries. you are in the house and you just voted for that spending bill, $46 million, to address that spending. and you said you need money above the 4.6 billion?

>> absolutely. and that 4.6 billion is just for the rest of this calendar year which ends in december. department of border security was going to run out of money. i tried to put an additional $2.9 billion to help with the unaccompanied minor problem. unfortunately, my colleagues on the other side of the aisle voted that down. i also tried to get an additional 100 judicial teams that are involved in these immigration cases. we have a backlog of 900,000 people in our immigration courts. it's taking an average of 627 days, plus or minus a few days, in order to get to an immigration case. we should be able to do an immigration case in under nine months. so these are short-term fixes. another area nobody is talking about is human smugglers. the human smugglers, the reason we saw an increase in last month -- or actually in may,

144,000 people came in the country illegally. in all of 2018 you had 400,000 people come in. human smugglers are getting better at moving people from point a to point b. they're taking these folks' money. we're not doing enough to attack the infrastructure and demolish the infrastructure of those carriers. >> you mentioned these detention centers as well as your colleagues have spoken to accounts they have seen in the past week. i would love to hear from you directly, what have you seen and have you had conversations with some of the migrants and what did they tell you? >> i haven't had the conversations with the migrants, but i have seen the facilities in clint. i know there is an allegation about people having to drink toilet water. dhs has come out vehemently against it, saying that is not the case that's happening.

nobody should be drinking toilet water, period, end of story, and those allegations should be taken seriously and investigated. what i saw when i was in clint, and this is where they're housing unaccompanied minors, i was there during lunch, so they were eating noodles and burritos. they switched to cotton blankets instead of wool blankets, which was a move from those mylar blankets which the dhs inspector general criticized. i saw some kids playing soccer. i saw a young girl with markers, you know, and a coloring book. and again, the volume at that facility was only 60 at the time, which it had a high water mark of 700. border patrol is overwhelmed. i've seen -- it's unfortunate there is this report about a facebook group where there is some pretty terrible comments being made.

if an active member of border patrol was indeed making those comments, i believe they should be fired. dhs is investigating it. the border patrol union has made this statement, because not only is it a breach of their code of ethics and code of conduct, but it puts the rest of border patrol, the men and women that are putting themselves in harm's way, at risk. and i look at in del rio sector, they've done 422 water rescues in the rio grande, to give a number. that's in eight months. all the previous year, only 75. so the border patrol agents i know are the ones putting themselves in harm's way to help people. >> we'll have this conversation many times in the weeks to come. otherwise, have a happy fourth. thank you for being with us. >> right back at ya. >> read the declaration of independence. remember what the fourth of july is about and the values we want to uphold.

>> i think the same thing. we should not be politicizing tomorrow, fourth of july. it's a day of independence, it's a day of knowing who we are and remembering who we are. >> we celebrate the fourth of july in the midst of a serious moral crisis. where will we be, who are we? >> the president said there will be the, quote, show of a lifetime in washington. chris jansen picks up the show right now. >> good morning. i'm chris jansen in for alex witt. photos that show squalid conditions at migrant centers and it's even more widespread than we knew. these serious and dangerous situations detailed from our own inspector general after surprise vifrt