>> good morning, and welcome to "a.m. joy", live from new orleans. well, this week on america's birthday, known as independence day or simply july 4, donald trump threw himself a party. ever since he saw that the french president has a parade, it's called bastille day and the dictator of north korea has a parade, it's called authoritarianism, and that they get to have tanks and people marching in front of them and saluting them, and all of that stuff, he's wanted to have one too. he tried to co-op other holidays like veterans day and memorial day, but the adults in the military kept pushing him back. no more. donald trump finally got his special donald trump parade, rolling tanks down the streets of your capital, flying air force planes over his head while he gave an odd speech about the airports, the continental congress took control of during the revolutionary war?

>> in june of 1775, the continental congress created a unified army out of the revolutionary forces encamped around boston and new york. and named after the great george washington commander in chief. the continental army suffered a bitter winter of valley forge, found glory across the waters of the delaware, and seized victory from corn wallace of york town. it ran the ramparts it took over the airports, it did everything it had to do and at fort mchendry under the rockets red glare, it had nothing but victory. >> okay. i'm sure you know this already because you paid attention in school but just so that it's said, the continental army was not named after george washington. there was no air travel during the revolutionary war.

airplanes weren't even invented until 1903, and the battle at fort mchendry happened during the war of 1812. details. in the end, for millions of your tax dollars, this is actually what donald trump got. >> on this day, 243 years ago, our founding fathers pledged their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor to declare independence and defend our god given rights. >> not an american president but what looks like an authoritarian leader, festooned by his military and making a show of force to, well, it's not really clear who because donald trump actually really likes dictators. joining me now is president o and ceo of latino.

craig unger, vanity fair contributor, and author of house of trump, house of putin, and representative ted lou, democrat from california, and a member of the foreign affairs and judiciary committees. i want to go to you first, congressman, what did you make of it, watching an american president do this thing that tom nichols, who is a soviet, expert on the history of the soviet union and of that region, described as looking like an old soviet kind of, you know, parade. >> thank you, joy for your question. let me just first say that natural disaster like earthquakes can strike at any time and i urge to be prepared with supplies and a safety plan. to answer your question, one of the big problems with trump's july 4th event is it was a campaign event paid for by the american taxpayer. not only did he divert millions of dollars to this event, he had the republican national committee give out passes, vip

passes to major donors. that was outrageous. that was a violation of our etheth ethics and he made a mockery of our independence day. >> thank you for mentioning what's going on in your state. we just saw two natural disaster in the state of california, so this is a time when the federal government actually has priorities that are important that we should be spending money on, things like making sure that states are ready for natural disaster like you just saw in your state. when you see the president of the united states diverting money so he can have planes fly over him, rather than spending the money on important things like that, or maybe uncaging children, which he's also doing in the state of california and arizona and other places, as a member of congress, is there something that you plan to do about that. this does seem like a tremendous waste of money. >> members of congress can't use official resources to participate in a parade. in this case, trump diverts $2.5 million of national park fees to pay for his party, and

i've asked the federal election commission to look into this because how can you have all of this taxpayer money do this event and have the republican national committee be involved handing out vip passes to the major donors. >> yeah, and besides that, i want to go to you craig unger, you have written a lot about donald trump, his mafia sort of relationships that he has had throughout his career, particularly when it comes to russia. this is what michael mcfall, the former u.s. ambassador to russia tweeted after donald trump's weird parade. he said i knew this was coming, tweet from julia davis news, russia state tv is obsessively bashing trump's low energy weak parade with rusty tanks, the hosts lol at trump's claim's, there's your city upon a hill, a

world leader and martians have been defeated. donald trump not only wasted america's money to make himself a campaign commercial but also has subjected the united states to mockery because real dictatorships know what a dictator parade is supposed to look like, craig. >> at least sometimes they get their facts straight, and i mean, it's interesting that if the russian state tv is going after trump, that doesn't happen without vladimir putin's say so. it's also interesting, the clip you showed, the number of historical errors in it is just extraordinary, and the white house has an office of speech writing with lots of researchers and interns and they fact check things, and there are only three possibilities for that level of stupidity to take place. one is that that office is completely filled with people with room temperature iq, the other is that all the procedures have fallen apart, and they don't exist anymore, and the

third possibility is it's spraying from the brain of donald trump, and that is deeply, deeply disturbing. >> yeah, there's a lot about it that's disturbing lonnie, i'm going to go to you on this, i'm glad you're here to have a historical context. donald trump admires dictator sh ships around the world. all of the media is his version of the bastille day ceremony. i pointed out earlier this week, the whole bastille day thing is about sending a message to dictators. that's what the whole bastille day is about. that's clearly not what this is. donald trump likes dictators. what was the message that you think came out of what donald trump did this week? >> it was grandiosity and self-inflation, and so one of the things, i think, that's significant here is that the united states, at least in theory, is supposed to operate on the doctrine that we are a nation of laws, that no one is above the law, and that the

constitution is the fundamental authority. that is a different position, fundamentally different position than a state in which the personality or the authoritarian leader is the head of all interest and ideas within the state, and so what donald trump did was essentially hijack this idea and turn it into something that was supposed to glorify itself. it's an interesting paradox here, which is that several years ago, i did a full bright fellowship and spent an entire semester in moscow, teaching at moscow state university and at the end of the semester, there was the may 9th celebration. anybody who has been to russia or knows, you know, about their history post world war ii, may 9th is a gigantic celebration that happens each year somewhere between the fourth of july and new year's and it is a recognition of the soviet defeat

of the nazi threat, an threat in world w world war ii. it's huge. i was there for the parade and there's this complete procession of military vehicles. their missiles, tanks, armored vehicles, their jeeps and it looks like an army amassing for an invasion. someone turns to me and says do you do the same thing in the united states on the fourth of july. i said, no, this would never happen in the united states because they, in the united states believer there should be a really clear distinction between civilian authority and military might and that our authority is supposed to, at least in theory, stem from our laws and our moral believes. and what donald trump did was essentially invert that to create it as the kind of satirical, almost, emulation of something that he sees in vladimir putin, we should

recognize this as the antidemocratic movement that it actually was. >> yeah, i mean, that is an excellent point. he talked about the fact that trump tried to make himself look big from this piece. it was clear from the beginning that independence meant nothing more than a made for television event and an ego message. it invoked mockery. there's a cartoon that's drawn on what airplanes would look like during the revolutionary war. it's ben franklin attached to two kites and this is by somebody i know, the great natalie johnson who drew that. here's the reality, donald trump it seems wants to be seen as this big man, right, he wants to be seen as this grand leader of this great military but what he actually can accomplish through his own, you know, the quality of the staff that he has around him is he can't do that.

the reality is even in the case of russia, which now is an adversary of the united states, during world war ii, they were fighting the nazis. if they're doing a big celebration, talking about defeating the nazi empire, they're sending a message again to dictators. there are two kinds of parades, that and one in north korea. trump is trying to do it. he doesn't even know how. >> or really why. >> we are the largest military operation in the world. we don't have to show that type of display of force because the world already knows it and what i found so disappointing when it came to july 4th is july 4th is to commemorate our roots as americans, the fact that we fled different countries here, and recognize that, our dna is we're a nation of immigrants and we have strength and don't have to show military might because the world knows it, and what donald

trump did was a sad display. he didn't have the courage to join the military when his card was up. he deferred it on bone spurs and basically not only deteriorates the flag but also the meaning of what means to be american and july 4th and come together as a nation. the reasons presidents don't make it about them is because it's one country, under one flag in unison. it's not supposed to be partisan. he created a campaign rally, trying to differentiate us and divide us. what i think is beautiful is you saw families on the lawn saying i'm apolitical and i'm here to sth share it with families. we know what we are. we know who we are, and we know we do it with justice. the fact that he can do this in the backdrop of caging children, that is not who we are. and the more we can stand strong to values, despite the operation in our history, we have to make sure that we are clear minded on

what it means to be american and fair and just. >> do you think that what you saw, donald trump made us look stronger and weaker as a country. >> absolutely weaker. the worst part of it is that had this not been an inept display of pseudo authoritarianism, we still would have looked weaker. if he had down this correctly, in air quotes correctly, we would have looked weaker. now we look doubly weaker, because it's a poor imitation of what it was supposed to be in the first place. >> kwwhen the russians look at , they are laughing at us. is he a subject of mockery to them. >> i think he is subject to mockery, the images that come away is we have concentration camps on the border, tanks by

the lincoln memorial. there was an piece to the "washington post," the architecture is about reconciliation, it's about the lincoln memorial, our original sin was slavery. the civil war, and this is where we were supposed to have reconciliation, and instead today we have images of tanks and the whole crisis at the border. >> i'm going to give you the last word, congressman. as a person who did serve, unlike donald trump, when you saw tanks rolling down the nation's capitol, your thoughts were what? >> having served in the active duty in the military, we have been trained not to participate in partisan campaign events. there's a directive that prohibits military members from showing up in uniform at a campaign rally. this was a massive tax funded campaign rally, handing out vip passes, it eroded what should be a nonpartisan military and that was sad and disappointing.

>> thank you all for being here and sending out good thoughts to your state congressman, jilani cobb, a cobb, craig unger, thank you very much. people locked in cages on the southern board, more on that next. cages on the southern board, more on that next

unconscionable. no child should ever be separated from their parent. >> the mothers, the abuelas, the tias, the madres, who i sat with who we want openly in our arms. >> i'll never forget the image of being in a cell and seeing 15 women tears coming down their faces as they talked about being separated from their children, about having no running water. >> in fact, one of the women said that she was told by an agent to drink water out of the toilet. >> this week democratic lawmakers once again saw for themselves the shameful conditions that migrant children and adults have been forced to live, specifically at a detention facility in clint, texas. conditions at the department of homeland security's inspector general confirmed in a report this week. let me read to you some of the findings, quote, children at three of the five border patrol

facilities that we visited had no access to showers. at these facilities children had limited access to a change of clothes, border patrol had few spare clothes and laundry facilities while all facilities had infant formula, diapers, baby wipes, juice and snacks for children, two facilities had not provided children access to hot meals. but customs and border patrol was so desperate to dispel these firsthand accounts from lawmakers and activists that one of it chiefs filmed a video showing a supply room with an abundance of clothing and supplies, and a clean area, 300 miles away in arizona. back with me, maria theresa kumar, and andrea pitzer author of one long night. and laura, director of

immigrants rights at columbia law school and a lawyer who has visited detention centers for the last 10 years. laura, i want to play for you a little bit, a video that was obtained of a 12-year-old girl, a 12-year-old migrant, her account of being detained for two weeks. it's in spanish for those of you who are watching. you'll have to read the sub titles. [ speaking in foreign language ] ] and laura, we have heard stories of little kids being forced to take care of other little kids.

children sleeping on the ground in nothing but a diaper. children saying they have one meal a day. is this legal? >> no, this is absolutely not legal. federal law provides for protections for children in federal immigration custody. the 1997 flores settlement agreement requires that the federal government provide safe and sanitary conditions for children in its custody. a law from 2008 which was passed with unanimous bipartisan support and signed by president george w. bush says that children must not be detained by customs and border patrol for any longer than 72 hours. the conditions that we're learning about, what we hear, what i smelled when i was at these facilities, it is unlawful, and illegal. >> and then, laura, this is what i have not understood and i'm going to go to you first, and

then maria theresa kumar because we have been talking about why they might be doing this. they're holding kids for 50 days, 40 days, 30 days, almost as if the ransom, they can't leave. how can they get away with it if it's illegal. >> it is illegal and what's important to know is that most of these children have family members in the united states who are desperate to have their children back. 80% of children released from the federal government are housed and cared for and loved for by their own family members. we need immediate congressional oversight and pressure on this administration to release children from detention as quickly as possible and while children are detained they must be treated humanely. >> you know, maria theresa kumar, i have to go to you on this. we have been down there. you have been there much more than i have.

laura has been there. i'm not a lawyer. it strikes me as completely illegal to hold children in this manner when as laura said, they have family to go to. donald trump says that's catch and release, he's not doing it. why in your view are they holding these children? is it the money that they're making, i mean it's 750 bucks a day to hold kids in these camps. is it straight money, why are they not letting them go? >> i think there's a couple of things. one, it's political fodder, it shows that he is the strong fisted person making sure they're trying to use this as a deterrent. he didn't come up with this. it's steve miller, his senior adviser with his finger prints all over it. it's political fodder for his base. he's being tough and it's the parents' fault he came here. two, there's a lot of money to be maid. the private detention facilities, the for profit detention facilities, stock

prices went on the rise. the chief of staff, the former chief of staff john kelly who advised president trump and was head of the dhs, he was one of the architectures of this. guess where john kelly is now. he is now on the board of advisers to one of the largest detention for profit facilities. he has gone down to homestead, in florida, housing 3,200 minors. president obama processed individuals and deported them. this president has little intention of deporting them. these children are not supposed to be in custody more than 72 days. in some cases, they are there for months, in some cases, almost a year, and it's clear the only way you do it is ensure someone is making a lot of profit, and you do it away from the cameras, away from the american public and you do it almost in secret. the fact that this is basically, you have some i.c.e. agents coming out and anonymously showing pictures of what is happening in the facilities.

they're trying to also, you know, ring the red light of this is not normal. this is illegal, and we need the american people to stand up for it. the fact that the united nations have declared that the united states is in violation of children's human rights should be screaming at the top of the lungs of every single american saying this is not who we are. this is what we actually stand for. >> andrea, i mean, we have had a whole bunch of people getting upset and debating over what you call these camps. i don't know what else you would call it other than concentration camps. they won't let them go, seem to be displaying misery to entertain. i don't know what it is they're trying to show the american people. they seem to want us to know they're doing this to these kids. we had a young man who was allegedly shamed. this actually, you know, they hung a sign on him, saying i like men in spanish and put a sign on him to try to humiliate him. this reminds me of the way we

behaved at abu grave where it was trying to display the mockery of these people. i don't understand what's going on here and no one is stopping it. your thoughts, andrea. >> look, it's no surprise that there are echoes of prior camp systems in going back more than a hundred years in what we're seeing on the border today. the turn of the 20th century, emily hob house went down to southern africa and were shocked that the british weren't providing soap to children and women in detention so they could prevent contagious diseases. tens of thousands of people would die in those camps while parliament argument parliament argued over whether it was fair to call them concentration camps. in germany, a man was arrested and taken where nazis put a sign around him to humiliate him. arguments over what to call it, death from contagious diseases. what we have is not a death camp

system like auschwitz but it is a concentration camp system, a malevolent system that has deep roots in a polarized society that is willing to do harm to vulnerable people. if the authorities don't intervene, we know what's going to that happen, we'll move to the next stage of concentration camp abuses, which are going to show up not as negligence but atrocities. >> i'm going to ask you to please come back. >> can i add something. >> very quickly. >> so, joy, i think the bigger issue, too, is that we know that a lot of these folks that are getting these government contracts actually served as security guards for afghanistan and iraq. they have no business being surrounded by children. >> yeah, absolutely. i want to have you guys come back. we want to think about what these children can do. we have to figure out what to do next. thank you very much, maria theresa kumar, thank you very much all three.

later this hour, we're going to talk about disturbing information, about the culture at the border protection agency. please stay tuned for that. coming up next, even after he was slapped by the supreme court, druonald trump is not giving up on his attempts to rig the census. just getting better and better and better. we'll be right back. etter and br and better we'll be right back. it would mean the world to them, and they will love you forever.

officials in southern california are assessing the damage after the second powerful earthquake in the region in just the last two days. friday's quake had a magnitude of 7.1 and was centered in the desert city of ridgecrest, felt in los angeles and las vegas. it rattled homes and businesses and sparked fire and power outages. at a baseball game between the los angeles dodgers and san diego padres, dodgers stadium seemed to shake and roll for nearly a minute, but the players played on. friday's quake comes one day of a 6.4 magnitude earthquake in the same region. officials say there will likely be more. stay with msnbc throughout the day for the latest on this story. up next on a.m. joy, trump and his far right allies want to rig the census but since he's donald

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the census is a constitutionally mandated operation that we are required to implement every ten years. it is one of the most vital and sensitive things that we do in our government. i want to know why this question was magically added after we have seen that a political

operative knew and detailed an intent to intimidate racial and immigrant communities for a partisan purpose? >> a recent supreme court decision last month in which chief justice john roberts sided with the liberals on the court made it clear the majority on the court saw through the trump administration's attempts to rig the constitutionally required united states census to try and take money and resources away from nonwhite people and immigrants. the trump administration's attempts to pretend that they really wanted to add a citizenship question to the census to help them enforce the voting rights act were easily seen right through. the career lawyers at the justice department seemed content to listen to the court. apparently donald trump was not. after going on a twitter tirade, apparently after conoodling with his allies, he ordered the doj to try again. on friday, trump invented a new

power that he thinks he has as president saying he's considering an executive order to force the citizenship question on to census. >> we're thinking about doing that. it's one of the ways. we have four or five ways we can do do it. we can also add an addition on. we can start the printing on and maybe do an addendum after we get a positive decision so we're working on a lot of things, including an executive order. >> it should go without saying, you cannot overrule a supreme court decision with an executive order. joining me now is msnbc legal analyst, maya wiley, adam certificaserwer of the atlantic. can one overrule the supreme court decision by having an executive order. >> no. >> so let's move on to the next

question. i think it's important. but it's important to make it clear. >> i think what's really important here, is justice roberts in his opinion said that judicial review is not just an empty vehicle, that it has to have meaning. he was explicit in the opinion. think about this, a chief justice of the supreme court felt the need to say that in an opinion. that is astounding and donald trump has proven why it was necessary to say. you know, department of justice lawyers right now are trying to figure out how to do what they have an oath to do, which is uphold the laws of the united states and there is no higher legal vehicle in the land in terms of how to understand our constitution or interpret our staff statutes than the supreme court. >> the story that's developing is donald trump gets slapped

down by the supreme court, then with his friends on the far right, the alt-right, folks like stephen bannon, whoever he was talking to. he gets mad, does this tweet form, that it's fake, they're not going to fight to get the question on the census, which is just a straight out lie, and now you have the department of justice twisting itself into knots to try to figure out a way to do what they have been told to do which is to still find a way to get this issue on to the census. we know from the reporting that's out there is the original reason for it is that they wanted to defund areas that had a lot of immigrants in it, especially non-white immigrants. they want to give white voters an advantage, knowing 6.5 million people wouldn't answer the census. the fact that they're making it this blatant, your thoughts. >> i want to say one thing, this is not a question of far right. this is the republican establishment that hatched this scheme for weakening the voting

influence of voters of color to increase white voting power. this is an absolutely establishment republican scheme that donald trump recognizes is important if the republican party wants to keep winning elections in a diversifying country. they need to figure out a way to make white votes count more, and when they went to the supreme court, they gave them a fictional reason and of all the conservative justices on the supreme court, only roberts was willing to say it was fictional. the other supreme court justices said that the plaintiffs were asking like conspiracy theorists in suggesting the commerce secretary was lying. now the president has confirmed it, this is about districting, this is about diluting the minority vote. this is not about enforcing the minority rights act. everyone knew that was a pretext, but what they tried to do was not simply lie to the court, not simply lie to the american people but tell them the thing that they were seeing in front of their eyes was false. >> yeah, and just to show you all that, you know -- and thank

you for making that point because this has been a long-term thing trying to game and game and game the system because they know demographics are changing and they don't want it to change their power. let me play the donald trump sound bite, where donald trump admits it's about dpriistrictin using the census to increase the power of his side. >> you need it for many reasons. you need it for congress, for districting. you need it for appropriation, where are the funds going, how many people are there, are they citizens, not citizens, you need it for many reasons. >> maya normally when somebody is blatant about the whole reason they're going in front of the court is a lie, that would be the end of it, but donald trump has gotten away with it before. he said the muslim ban was a muslim ban and he said i didn't mean it. roberts has not been a huge fan of voting rights. could they just change their reason and slide this right past

the supreme court? >> well, you know, here's -- it's a little bit complicated but procedurally, but let's say this, one of the things that chief justice roberts did was spent about 22 pages saying why the administration could put this question on the census despite the fact that the careerists, the people who behave in a nonpartisan way in the census bureau said no, we don't think this question should go on in order to do what we need to do as a census. that's really important, and what minority on the court said, what liberals on the court said was we actually don't think the whole first part of that opinion is right. we think that this was arbitrary and capricious, which is the legal language for ain't no reason for this, no good reason, that the fact that the careerists said no, this is bad, means it shouldn't happen, and just one more thing i just want to add. 2010 republicans under funded this census even before trump

was elected. >> absolutely, and they sort of made war on it. let me go to you quickly natasha, how will this look on the ground, if people are afraid to answer the census, then what? >> i think part of the problem of people are afraid to answer the census, what you're going to see is a gross undercount. you're going to see an undercount in communities of color, and the challenge is they are $800 million of aid that goes by census data. you'll see a gross undercount because of this. i think there's another issue i want to raise around the president that we have a rogue president that in this process in particular, here is the executive that's saying that immediately after the supreme court ruling, he's actually saying that i'm considering these options. one, i'm considering this option around executive order, and then the second thing he's saying, he's considering the option of adding an addendum. this is a president that does not even respect the law of the land. i really think that we're in a

constitutional crisis, and we don't need to act like this is normal. this is not normal. this is not acceptable. this is beyond. he took an oath and swore that he would actually uphold the law of the land, yet we're seeing this play out very differently. i think we need to make the distinction that here it is that immediately after the supreme court made a decision, he says that he's going to do whatever he wants to do narrow, aanyway got to take that seriously. >> absolutely. hopefully there's a plan. we're going to have you talk about this more. we'll have you back to talk about what the plan is going to be, if he's somehow able to thwart the law. the secret facebook group of border patrol agents that is raising new questions about the treatment of migrants and the culture of the cvp, that's next. culture of the cvp, that's next. t originally discovered... in jellyfish. in clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve short-term memory. prevagen. healthier brain. better life.

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92% of the force is latino. a lot of people ask me how do they get latino people to behave this way against people who are their own heritage and their own culture. it's because in the academy they mandate and they teach the agents to use racist terms for migrants so that they see these people as other and that they are not like them. it does have an effect.

it's condoned and when it happens and somebody complains, everybody groups together, specifically more the male side, and they protect each other. >> a second formerly secret facebook group frequented by current and former customs and border patrol agents have been unearthed. cnn obtained screen shots from two sources familiar with the facebook pages that contain bolder and sexually explicit posts mocking migrants and demeaning lawmakers like alexandria ocasio cortez. nbc news has not independently identified these facebook groups or posts. back with me, mia wiley and adam. feeling kinda cute today.

idk. you have another one that posted the father and daughter, asked if the photo could have been fake because the bodies were so, quote, clean. it goes on and on and on. some are latino. it's not all only white members of the cbp. what the heck is going on in your view? >> any time you give one group of people authority over another group of people you run the risk that the people with authority are going to see themselves as above or better than the people who they have authority over. the way you mitigate that in a democracy, you say they are public servants. they are actually employed by the public, they don't lord over the public. the problem with that is if you create a culture of impunity where public servants who have that authority, particularly authority over life and death are never held accountable when they abuse that authority, then they begin to rationalize those abuses as somehow justified ornes. i think that's what we're seeing

here, particularly with the trump administration imposing policies that are cruel beyond what we've seen in previous administrations, even when those administrations have been strict on immigration enforcement. and the people who carry out those policies have to be able to figure out a way to justify what they're doing. and one way that they do that is by denying the humanity of the people that they are -- they have authority over. >> you know, the dehumanization of these folks, it did remind me, chris hayes put up a post, these aren't even people or in our own past the way that people were able to treat others, whether it's from enslavement on. they're just not people so we don't have to think of them as human beings. you have this customs and boarder protections person saying this does not reflect the values of cbp. they're two different groups where people are making mockeries. mia. >> they're clearly not true. we have no reason to believe

they aren't because there was a 2018 exposure. the facebook groups existed in 2018. i think part of the problem here is exactly what adam said, the leadership has to say not only is this not who we are as an institution, it is not what we will tolerate as managers. and that's critically important. if you don't take action where you have the authority to take action against employees, in this case there is an ability to take disciplinary action if there's inappropriate social media activity. you have to balance that with first amendment rights of course, but here the question is people who have the ability who are armed who can actually violate the human rights of other people must be held to account when they are essentially dehumanizing in a way that really undermines the effectiveness of the agency, which is supposed to be impartial. remember that people coming to the border have a lawful right

based in international law as well as u.s. law to seek asylum and the dehumanization is both offensive but it also fundamentally undermines the role that they are to play at the border and we should be very concerned about that. >> but, i mean, to -- i think i told you every week, adam, cruelty is the point. that's why they're doing it. his base wants to see this so he's showing them that he can dehumanize them. isn't that message coming from the white house that essentially you don't have to treat these people like human beings. who cares? >> i do think the message is coming from the white house that these people are not human beings and you don't have to treat them properly. i will say though that when it comes to children the administration is very aware that its policies are at their political weakest point when people see these images of children being abused or being held in dehumanizing conditions. with the adults it's a little different. the president likes to brag about how he's going to deport a

million people, they're going to do a crackdown and all of that stuff. when it comes to the children, i actually think that they recognize that this is damaging for them among everyone among the most hard core trump supporters. >> they don't do anything about it, maya. that doesn't mean they're changing it. they won't let the kids go. they won't let them go. they're holding them for almost 60 days at some point. they just won't let them go. >> they won't let them go. >> if they see that it's wrong, why won't they let them go? >> they won't let them go. they have the astounding appearance in court where they were in violation of the settlement agreement. oh, well, we don't even have to provide soap. >> yeah. they moved them to another facility because they knew that the cameras were coming. mocked the members of congress in front of the supervisors who did nothing and then moved the kids right back in. if they really believed that, if they said they were going to deport them, they're not doing that. it's insane.

maya, we'll be right back. adam sewer, really appreciate you. keep on quoting you. more "am joy" after the break. b. with tripadvisor, it's easy to discover over 100,000 bookable things to do, from walking tours in rome to wine tastings in tuscany, and if you like what you see, you can book it with ease. just another way tripadvisor helps you make your trip a masterpiece. ♪ hoo - read reviews, check hotel prices, book things to do. tripadvisor.

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i know predators, and we have a predator living in the white house. and the thing about predators you should know is that they prey on the vulnerable. they prey on those who they do not believe are strong.

welcome back to "am joy." almost three years after hillary clinton became the first major nominee of a u.s. political party, we now have six women running. among them, senator kamala harris. who among calling donald trump a predator shares why she has the credibility to take him down. >> i've had a lot of fights, most of which i've won. i know how to fight. let me tell you, we're going to need somebody who can successfully prosecute the case against another four years of that administration. i know how to do that. >> senator harris along with senator elizabeth warren saw their stops soar in new national polls. the quinnipiac poll that was released tuesday shows harris surging 13 points since last month into second place. only two points behind front-runner joe biden. that after harris challenged biden over his comments about working with segregationist senators and his opposition to

federally mandated bussing in the 1970s. when asked which candidate did the best job at the debate, 47% said harris. she was followed by senator elizabeth rar wen with 17%. 6% said biden had the best performance. when asked which candidate has the best policy ideas warren took the lead with 31% compared to 19% in april. sanders came in at 18% while biden received 11%, a drop from 23 in april. despite these numbers, biden remains the nominal front-runner even if barely. the changes in the standings are re-upping the question whether america is finally, finally ready to elect a woman president. there are six options. if not now, when? maya wiley is with me. joining me is rashad robinson, tiffany cross and dean obserida.

i'm going to you first, rashad watching missy elliot at the essence festival. i'm wondering if you had a chance. i don't know when you got here. i don't know if you had a chance to walk around with people that you are running around down here at essence. tell me what you're hearing. is the kamala boom resonating in the real world or is it us people obsessed with polls? >> i think it's a mix of both. it is people that are obsessed with polls and those of us in the political class that follow these things are sort of deeply invested in looking at the up ticks and down particulaticks b are understanding who she is, paying closer attention to us and that's the power of the debates. i'm also hearing elizabeth warren's name a lot from a number of people as i walk around, particularly the way she's rolled out a set of plans and exactly how she's talking about how she's going to close

some of the gaps that have plagued communities for so long. i do think it's incredibly early. even the ticks and hits that biden has taken to his polls is a recognition that many of his early numbers were just that people knew who he was. it's like going into a store, a supermarket and you pick the product off the shelf that you have seen the most commercials for, that you know, you have the most attention to. over time you might change that as you learn more things. so i do think that it's just really early but i do think that these debates are shifting the landscape and giving people more opportunity to see candidates in a different way. >> that's a very good point, tiffany. there is a certain huge advantage that biden had because people knew who he is. people didn't know who a lot of these people were. people watched the second debate, oh, she's interesting. i'm wondering if there's a potential that it's a little

deeper and people didn't know who barack obama was but when they saw him in comparison and saw he was plausible. biden is only two points ahead in the latest poll. warren is right up there. she's passed bernie sanders, at 14. statistically tied but one point ahead of him. she's up 13, harris. biden's gone down 8. she's taking that lead from him it looks like. i wonder if he's a bit too comfortable assuming i'm the guy black voters like. among african-americans, she's only four points down among african-americans. that's a huge change. it feels a little bit like barack obama versus hillary clinton in that '08 primary or am i reading too much into it? >> first i have serious fomo that all of you guys are at the essence festival. i don't want to hear about missy elliott. but back to the issue at hand,

back to the point. i think a lot of -- so many people put how they feel about these candidates through the lens of cable news networks, right? so when you have people offering analysis in how they feel even after the debate, a lot of times that conversation is driven by a media lacking in diversity, ethnic diversity, diversity in thought, socioeconomic diversity. people look through a myopic lens. it became all about elizabeth warren, kamal had a harris. we forget that julio castro had an amazing performance. very overlooked candidate. i think we have to look at this and to that point it is still very early in the process. you and i talk about this a lot, joy. you know how i feel about the polls. polls are mostly older americans, people who answer land lines. people who answer land lines from an unidentified caller, you're not going to have a lot of people doing that. we have to disaggregate the

data. i think kamala harris is a very electable candidate. there are others who are electable. the american people will ultimately say, yeah, ultimately you can't put all your credence into what polls are saying and media analysts even say. so we have to -- there's another debate coming up a the t-- at te end of july. we have to look at it at a wider mainstream outlet. >> you know, i agree with you. we talk about this all the time. i have to say, i'm going to dean on this, here's the challenge. everything tiffany just said is true but most people don't have time to follow this. they look at the polls, listen to us talk about it. you talk about the great debate that julian castro had. he didn't move in the polls. it feeds on it self. he had a great debate but he didn't move. the thing is people are trying to think. i have to nair could he 800 people down to four, right? they have to start thinking of it as four or five instead of 40.

the next debate do you think the democratic party ought to narrow it down a little bit? it would eliminate someone who's not polling very much? do you think it's bad to do another 23 people in the debate? >> the july debate, let it go forward. the next debate, september, already the field is smaller. look, this is going to be a battle. i mean, donald trump talked about it on the fourth of july like when the revolutionary army took up airports. it's that kind of battle we're talking about, the battle of laguardia, onward to jfk. this is the kind of battle that's going to happen between now and november of 2020. internally in the democratic party, things are going to change. people want someone to win. there are three factors they want in the democratic nominee, who can beat trump, who can beat trump, who can beat trump. they say every time, vote blue no matter who. whoever i'm supporting is fine. we're going to unite and win against donald trump. the more polls you see where

senator harris can beat trump. the more where senator warren can beat trump. not just biden can beat trump it makes them more electable and i think undercuts the idea that joe biden is the only one electable and the more that happens, i think the more joe biden can still be the nominee but potentially slides. >> yeah. putting aside the fact that dean brought up the battle in which george washington, you know, used his fighter planes to bomb the british front line, you know, during that first battle to take over the airports during the revolutionary war. we're going to put that aside and come back to politics, maya wiley. the other issue, as dean said, it's been seen biden is the only one who can beat trump. there has been this idea even among african-americans, it's got to be a white guy. when you see her beat him in a debate, doesn't that make people wonder, wait a minute, he can't beat her, maybe this woman actually is the one who can take donald trump down?

>> yeah, i think that's right. i think one of the things that's happening here is the sort of national trauma around donald trump having won the 2016 election. remember that hillary clinton did win by almost 3 million votes, what she lost was the electoral college. she lost that by basically three states in the midwest, right? it was pennsylvania, wisconsin and michigan. so that's where the oh, we need a white man fear comes from but i also think the fact that voters voted for donald trump despite his overt sexism is part of why we are starting to hear what i think is a very dangerous debate about whether is a woman electable. what we don't talk about is is a black woman electable? part of what's happening is this notion is the only way we win the office is by actually sacrificing who we are when all of the fundamentals show that absolutely women and women of all races are electable. that's what 2018 taught us. in fact, back to your earlier

point, joy, about barack obama, once he won the iowa caucuses, he was way behind hillary clinton in the polls, way behind. when he beat her by, what, about 8 points in the iowa caucus in '08, suddenly he was electable. it is early. i agree with everything everyone else said. i think we have to address the fact that our fear could be our worst enemy in terms of getting the kind of leader we need for the country. >> can i top in, joy? >> yeah. >> really quickly to maya's point. i think some people voted for donald trump despite these things. we have to reconcile some people voted for donald trump because of these things. we see ugly rhetoric. these guys are not running against donald trump, they're running against each other. we have to get through a primary. i take dean's point obviously kamala harris is electable. it is something voters should pay attention to. she handled joe biden.

i think there is an underbelly of people who are dying to see her body donald trump on a debate stage, dying to see her slap him around on the debate stage which she could handle well but who's doing the asking? who's saying is a black woman electable? when you look at the people who are questioning that, they frequently don't look like some of us on the panel. sometimes they do. sometimes there are people out of south carolina who really do think that black people can be, you know -- we can question ourselves in a way that sometimes not even, you know, white people question. >> yeah, i mean -- >> to that point -- >> go on. go on. >> to tiffany's point, which i think is excellent, that's why this has to be about expanding the base. expanding electorate, not about how many trump voters can be peeled off but where are the '08 and 2012 obama voters? that means this conversation that oftentimes the political class talks about with low

propensity voters but we like to talk about high potential voters. the black votes, the people of color, the young people who oftentimes never get talked to. who is going to inspire those voters to turn out? because actually we can expand the base of voters and turn out people that have otherwise not turned out in the last election and don't turn out oftentimes in elections, we not only win elections but we win with the type of base that allows us to govern in progressive ways. to pass the type of legislation and the type of policy and practice change that these are talking about. so to the point of both the conversation about who is having this conversation in the media and how the media is covering this but also who these candidates are talking to, this has to be a story about not just appealing to the lowest common denominator but appealing to the aspirations and expanding the base of voters. that's why new voices and voices that are unafraid, women, people of color are going to be so

important to ushering the democratic party into the next phase. >> absolutely. democratic party has to decide. do they have to do a sort of -- kind of a nostalgia version of themselves north to mollify a certain voter or go forward. the women seem to be leading that conversation at the moment. maya wiley, rashad robinson, thank you very much. tiffany and dean will be right back. coming up, we're going to talk biden and whether this past week was a glitch or was it the first hole that the iceberg ripped into the side of the titanic? that's next. that's next. alice loves the smell of gain so much, she wished it came in a fabric softener too. [throat clears] say hello to your fairy godmother, alice. oh and look they got gain scent beads and dryer sheets too!

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i was prepared for them coming at me. i wasn't prepared for the person coming at me. she knows bo, she knows me. >> it was the most dramatic breakout moment of the democratic debate. senator kamala harris confronting former vice president joe biden for boasting about working with notoriously racist segregationist senators in past decades and his stance on bussing. on friday biden did an interview on cnn trying to clean up. >> i think if you take a look our positions aren't any different as we're finding out. >> you were not in favor of bussing. it was a different time and different applications, why not own it. why not say, i was against it and now i've changed. >> i was in favor of bussing.

the question is how do you eq l equalize education in every area? i put forward the most aggressive plan and i've been pushing it for a long time. >> tiffany cross and dean are back with me. joining me is will bunch of the philadelphia inquirer. phil, i wanted to talk to you about this. biden has now been compared to jeb bush. gail collins said she worried biden would be the jeb bush. she said feeble. he's the guy who can beat trump. another performance like this one and he's done. more importantly what you're seeing from biden is that he does seem to be a candidate geared towards the past. i'm going to bring back a past that you liked which is the obama era. he doesn't feel like a candidate of the future. is that a problem in this race? >> i think so. absolutely. i was at his announcement in philadelphia and i thought people were partying like it was 2015. he wants to go back to the near past, right? to the obama years.

i think everything that's happened in the last three or four years i think people are looking for a new direction forward. you know, i have to say in that sound bite you played where he said he wasn't expecting the kamala harris moment, that's really surprising to me. he's really had 40 years to prepare for it. he could tell a good story about his evolution on civil rights up to the point where he became the vice president to the first black president in this country and he really fumbled the answer to where he was mumbling something about states rights. it reminded me of the launch of ronald regan's 1980 campaign in mississippi. i think the broader problem is joe biden has been on the defensive since the day he entered this race and i think democratic voters are really looking for affirmative reasons to support a candidate. i mean, i think that's why you've seen elizabeth warren rise so much in the polls, because she's put out plan after plan and become a hashtag

#ihaveaplanforthat. biden hasn't captured the public imagination. i know he has some. last night there was a new video of him making the rounds where a voter in iowa confronted him about what he was going to about brett kavanaugh and the supreme court. he told her he didn't have an answer for that. a lot of candidates don't have an answer for that. i think again and again if you are going to see joe biden trying to defend his past record or trying to justify his candidacy beyond just he thinks he can beat donald trump, you're going to see him continue to erode in the polls if that's his style and that's the way he campaigns. >> yeah, tiffany, there's something about even that, the thing that will just mentioned, about him saying he'd nominate mayor garland and say he's going to go get that guy. even when president obama nominated him, people shrugged

until mitch mcconnell said no to him. the reality is, democrats love joe biden. democrats love uncle joe, but is that enough of a reason to nominate him to be president? does he need a forward-looking strategy that isn't just you love me, i'm uncle joe? >> right. if voters are concerned, we want to vote for the person who can beat donald trump, if joe biden was not prepared for this moment on bussing, what will he not be prepared for when he's on the debate stage with donald trump? this is a legitimate question that people have to ask themselves. and, listen, it is not enough in today's society in a post trump america for you to say, no, no, no, but wait, my best friend was black. i served the first black president. let me go through this clumsy explanation on how i came to some of these policy positions. that is not going to resonate with voters, particularly we saw in the mid terms the surge in younger voters who were younger people during the obama administration who are paying

mov more attention in this legislative environment. i think he has a lot of work to do to resonate with voters. you have to also look like we know some of the people who work on joe biden's staff. it's like nobody, did you not all think that question would come up? and why this topic is even being discussed in the first place is because he started out by saying, listen, guys, i can work with segregationists. i can work with white supremacists because i have done it before. i don't think a lot of people are looking for you to work with these people. people are looking for you to get these people out root and stem and redefine what this government should be and could be for all people including people of color who have been disenfranchised for decades. >> yeah. let me tell you what biden said. this is an -- dean, i want to play this for you. this is joe biden talking on cnn when he did this interview with chris comeau. >> i think it would be great to

have a female vp. if i don't win i think it would be great to have a female president. >> do you think the democratic ticket can win without a woman in the slots? >> yes. but i think it helps to have a woman on the ticket. there are a lot of really qualified women out there. >> that makes the point a little bit because it does talk about him saying, yeah, it would be great to have a female vp. great to have a woman vp eventually. this is cut one from my producers. this is him speaking about how he felt being confronted by kamala harris. this is cut one. >> it was hurtful to hear you talk about the reputations of two united states senators who built their reputations and career on the segregation of race in this country. and it was not only that but you also worked with them to oppose bussing. >> sorry about that. i didn't have the cut that i was looking for. the one i wanted to play for

you, i'll just describe it to you, dean. >> sure. >> he says to chris cuomo that it was hurtful to him to be confronted that way by kamala harris. she knows my son. she knows my family. something about that i think has a person of color maybe hearing it, it feels like he feels like he's done so much. i don't know, it felt as if he felt that he shouldn't be questioned in a sense because he's been barack obama's vp, that he shouldn't be questioned. >> well, on some level to me, that could be part of it, it harkens back to what we're talking about. joe biden is a throw back to a different time. in politics they wouldn't attack you. they're my friend. to remind people in 2016 in the california primary, president obama and joe biden supported kamala harris in that primary. he campaigned for her. he knows her son as well. he was stunned. someone who's my friend on the stage in front of everyone would mock me. that goes back criticizing on policy. that goes back to an older view

of politics. hey, we're all friends. we're only slightly different on policy and we can all get along. that's not going to work anymore today in 2020. joe biden reminds us why in 2008 he got less than 1% of the vote in iowa before he dropped out of the race. he was not a great candidate. i think he might know the policies inside and out. as a candidate he's not proving each other. he's going to inspire people to go and knock on doors, drive their friends to polls, to make phone calls and donate money. he's going to pick up his game to be that person. it's just not going to work. i was the vice president. i'm inevitable. give me this position. not going to happen in 2020. i can assure you he still can be the nominee but it's not inevitable. >> well, very quickly. last word to you on this. does -- is biden running too much on saying essentially that he's -- he wants to be president -- does he need to make a clearer reason why he

wants to be president other than what he's done in the past? because it does feel like his candidacy is rooted in a thing like i've done all of this for you in the past, now it's time for me to be president. it doesn't sound like a strong -- i don't know, what do you think? >> you're asking me? >> i'm sorry -- >> for will. >> yeah. that's okay. people want to know what he's going to do. also at his announcement he says, you know, you want to do something about climate change, beat donald trump. that's how you do something about climate change. on some level that's right. you have other candidates with much more detailed plans. when he talks about merit garland, that's a perfect reminder why the congenial approach from the 1970s that he wants to bring back isn't going to work in the 21st century. how can somebody who was there for merritt garland and what mitch mcconnell did to him think he can get along with republicans in any way? they had a policy of eight years of trying not to get anything

for obama, to deny him a second term and to deny him a supreme court seat. and why that was suddenly changed with the installation of joe biden as president, i just don't see that at all. >> yeah, i'm not sure that you can beat massive resistance with commity. dean and tiffany will be back. will bunch, welcome to the show. we'll have you back on again. coming up. after multiple indooinlts, over 10,000 lies and bowing to dictators across the globe donald trump has seen exactly one elected republican quit their party. justin amish's independence day next. next and skills and effort and talent. please consider volunteering and feeling that feeling that you helped someone today. play it cool and escape heartburn fast with new tums chewy bites cooling sensation.

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okay. a quick note of host privilege. i want to thank everyone who has bought my brand-new book "the man who sold america, trump and the unraveling of the american story." this week it became a "new york times" best seller. super bucket list exciting. thanks to all of the folks we met at the essence fest. you can get your copy wherever books are sold. coming up, more "am joy." -driverless cars... -all ground personnel...

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i was hoping to set an example for people. i've been involved in party politics for a while and i believe very strongly that it's hurting our country at this point. and i think people need to stand up for what's right, stand up for what they believe in and be independent of these party loyalties that really divide us. >> that is former and that is right former republican congressman justin amash why he chose to leave the party choosing, you guessed it, the

fourth of july to have his independence. he explained his decision to quit the party entirely in a "washington post" op ed saying true to washington's fears, they have ignored the most basic tenants of our constitutional order. the result has been the cons consolidation of political power and the near disintegration of representative democracy. back with me is dean and noelle and jason johnson, not the journalist jason johnson. consultant and former advisor of ted cruz. therefo there are two of you guys. you know this guy. tell us a little bit about him. he is an interesting character. >> a lot of mutual friends. what i do admire a great deal, it took the son of a palestinian refugee to stand up for

impeachment. i say that as a son of a palestinian immigrant. let's be clear about one thing, donald trump called him a disloyal republican. this is a guy who is a founder of the freedom caucus. this is a guy with a higher rating from the american conservative rating, higher than lindsey graham. it's not about loyalty to republican party or conservative principles, it's loyalty to donald j. trump. he refused to be loyal to him. he put the constitution above his party and now he's put his party to the side. i stand up for the united states of america. i applaud him for that. >> very quickly, he's syrian and palestinian? >> he's 100% -- i'm a half arab guy. he's a pure out there. i think it's probably shocked a lot of republicans. >> and, nick, it used to be --

i'm old enough to remember when a blur raplurality, we're geare towards the republican party. there's been a huge exit of the party by people in the background. he's not for that reason. his piece in the washington post i thought was brilliant. he really explained where we are in terms of hyper partisanship eroding our politics. that's really on one side more than the other. you had the republican party say barack obama doesn't exist. we will make him not exist. why is he the only one, noelle? >> i think it was a wrong move that he left the republican party. although he doesn't like president donald trump, he does respect the platform of the republican party. so, you know, you really -- in my opinion, you really can't make change and you really can't make a difference if you just quit, you just quit the party because you don't like who's representing the party.

you know, you've got an opportunity while you're in the party to get other people to convince them, you know, making change with policy. really the way you make change is in policy, not by quitting, because i know he's not going to go on the other side and join the democrat party. so it just leaves him to be an independent and the likelihood of him getting re-elected is probably not good. so, therefore, you know, i wish that he would have stayed and made his case and really fought for what he believed in and tried to change the direction of the core versus just quitting it. >> first of all, democratic party. we don't use sort of fake names. we're going with democratic party. i want to go to you, jason. let's say he loves the tax cuts for the rich. he likes that republican thing. i don't know how he could like the kids in cages. let's say he likes that, too. what he specifically has a problem with is breaking the law. this guy has been very clear.

he actually read the mueller report. he's one of the few in congress that read it. he said, oh, this guy violated ten times the law that fefgs a civilian he'd be in prison for obstructing justice. if you can't be for the president of the united states having to actually uphold the law he swears to uphold, i'm not sure what your purpose is as a politician. doesn't he get credit for saying this guy violated, i'm out of here. >> joy, two things. number one, i'm not going to sit here and try to argue that justin amash's exit from the republican party and declaring himself independent is detached and has nothing to do with his calling for impeachment of the president. it's very important and i understand it's tempting to get wrapped up in just the donald trump section. if you read that editorial, i, too, think it's brilliant. the reality is long before

donald trump came on this hyper partisan ship. why should justin amash, a member today elected by his district of the house of representatives, be any less effective in arguing for his brand of constitutional conservatism simply because he doesn't have an "r" next to his name? i'm not saying he will be less effective, that makes the point. the problem that we have today, you either are on team red or team blue and i think we all know that unfortunately we listen or we're open minded to the arguments presented based upon the color of the other person's jersey, and that's unfortunate. it shouldn't be that way. >> to that point, noelle, answer that. it's true. if you think he is with the conservative principles, if he

takes off of team red people won't listen to him? why shouldn't he he get re-elected? >> i feel like that we have turned politics into a blood sport. i mean -- >> but aren't you doing that by saying that if he takes off the red jersey, suddenly he can't get re-elected. why shouldn't he? >> because it's going to be hard to raise money, that's number one. if you have turned your back on the gop -- he said he was quitting the gop. he could have said, i'm quitting team trump. he's quitting the gop. >> hold on a second. donald trump is the gop. donald trump is the head of the republican party. he's running -- all of the policies that donald trump is putting in place, your party 100% is standing behind him on whether it's the children in cages which violates all kinds of laws and maybe the geneva convention. they're behind him on tariffs which are destroying people's farms and ranches, destroying their lives.

they're behind him on everything he does even if he's saying i'm going to ignore the supreme court. if no one is quit over that, charlottesville, nothing else, does the guy get credit for saying he has some principle? at some point he says enough. >> he totally gets credit for being his own man and standing up for things that he doesn't believe in or agree with, but to quit the party. the party is not the -- the republican party platform is not donald trump. it's a platform -- >> but it is. yes, it is. it is donald trump. it is 100% donald trump. it's whatever he wants, he does it. whatever donald trump wants, that's the platform. >> but he ran under the gop label. the gop didn't run on his label or his brand. so in effect -- >> so then the kids in cages are the republican platform? >> well, i -- i just feel like, you know, back to the original point, i just feel like for him to try to do a re-election campaign raising money, trying to depend on major gop donors to

help get his message out. i jut don't see him getting re-elected when he quits the republican party. i guess you're going to run as an independent. >> you could. >> where are you going to get the funding sources for that? >> it's all about money. let me give jason the last record. ja jason, will there be other justin amashs in your opinion? >> we will see more members. it's amazing, out of 435 elected representatives in the people's house, there now is only one independent. we hear all the time about how at least 1/3 of the country is in fact independent yet there's one out of 435. go forward, and this applies to both parties. unless these are coalitions of policy demanders start to respond in their bases, on the

brand i think we will see more individuals declaring tharp independence go forward. >> last question for you, dean? >> they might. he got a standing ovation. let's be honest. the gop is about loyalty to donald trump only. it stands for nothing. the gop is trump and trump is the gop. it's a party of not team red, it's team trump. not one republican stood up for justin when trump said he's disloyal. the dictator in chief demanded he be gone. >> i recommend everyone reads justin amash's piece. it's very good. coming up, the freak out over a teenage mermaid and what it tells us about america's culture wars next.

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♪ like the song of love that clings to me ♪ ♪ how the thought of you does things to me ♪ ♪ wish that i am unforgettable

too ♪ >> voice of disney's newest aerial, hallie bailey who is set to star in the live action little mermaid remake. well, now here's what you may want to have any kids under 12 leave the room. give you a moment, take them out the room. okay. so mermaids aren't real. i know, they're not real. so in theory, anyone could play a mermaid, right? wrong. the announcement of her casting has caused a multiday freakout among some disney fans who are upsit that the actress cast to play aerial is not white. back with me is tiffany cross of the beat d.c. and joining me entertainment journalist chris witherspoon. this young lady is adorable, the young lady who's going to a ariel. >> yes. she tweets out dream come true, people are excited that you're going to have this little

african american girl being ariel. but the freakout was real. i think it trended for a couple days after this happened. people were screaming she's supposed to be white with red hair, what the "h"? what is going on? >> i was shocked by the freakout myself and a lot of the folks who are freaking out were white adults with little mermaid that came on that had this white depiction of a princess that we have seen for decades. i think that the freakout is unwarranted. the rereality is there have been 11 disney princesses. guess how many of them have been black. just one. so 91% of the depiction in the narrative of what it is to be a princess has been through this white lens. it's past due. and the last time we had a black princess was ten years ago. so calm down, have several seats, and let's embrace hallie and all hef talent. she's fierce and she deserves

this role hands down. >> let me read one tweet. thank you to my team for purting this up there. this sort of made the point well in the is stephanie renee who says my children were raised with ariel. she's an icon in the eyes of manufacture children and adults of today. so change her race is absurd. that would be like somebody making a movie of oprah winfrey and hiring a white girl to play oprah. first of all, she's a real person. so if you made a movie about her you would want to her to look kind of like oprah. this isn't a documentary. there's no such person as ariel. >> there's no time under the sea where sebastian says ariel and your whiteness in your caucasian experience, it doesn't happen. so we could easily recreate and retell this story however we see fit. i think disney is doing a great job at being inclusive and new ways to tell diverse narratives and colorblind casting. >> tiffany, when malcolm "x" was

made, i thought the miff i haov brilliant. i had a slight problem with denzel washington is a genius because he's darker skin and having light skin was part of malcolm "x's" character. if you're looking at someone like that, maybe the casting was odd because his whole personality had to do with his complexion. but this isn't a documentary. it's about a fictional pretend creature that's a fish. >> and even the crazy lady that's tweeting out the tweet you just read, how many white people have actually played real black people? you've had white actors play michael jackson and other people. how often do your stories get whitewashed in mainstream hollywood? honestly, i have a they're prit think the not my ariel thing trended briefly because of those fringe internet section comments crazy people who tweet out these ridiculous things. but i think the overwhelming majority of people who made this trend were people who disagreed,

who were saying how ridiculous you sound saying this is not my era. this goes back to the megyn kelly comments saying santa is not white. we can look at the disney princesses and they all look the same. even among the white princesses they all look the same. there's never been a disabled princess or overweight princess. there's so many areas we can grow and learn in these spaces 'to the your point, it's a cartoon character creditor you idiots, what are you upset about? you have sound so ridiculous. >> i never -- i never disagree with anything that tiffany says, but santa is real, his name is larry, we've had him on the show twice. so i'm just saying, santa as real, don't play with me with santa because i met him, okay. >> i can say about hallie bailey, this girl is so talented. her and her sister, they write music, they understand music, they're part of the beyonce family which you know i'm the honorary president of the bee onsis? >> i did know that. >> chris, you're my honary cochair of the beyonce fan club.

she's so talented. if there's one sad thing to be taken away, it's that her joy was taken away because of these fringe crazy people tweeting these things. >> i think the finger pointing, it should go towards hollywood and the fact that overthe past, you know, since 1937 and disney films we've seen snow white and cinderella and sleeping beauty and they've all looked the same, as you said. so i think it's high time that hollywood begins to embrace and open doors and allow creatives that have these stories to tell. >> exactly. >> they can create new stories. maybe it's not going to be ariel, maybe it will be a black prib says who lives in harlem or brooklyn. we need to see more new stories. >> and by the way, the people sort of overall, this comes to the overall trauma that people are feeling about the changes in the culture and that the culture doesn't look like them anymore, that they're not in the center. this is all a bigger picture. we wanted to talk about this because there is a bigger

picture. pu thank you, guys. coming up, more am joy after the break. up, more am joy after the break. ave moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis, month after month, the clock is ticking on irreversible joint damage. ongoing pain and stiffness are signs of joint erosion. humira can help stop the clock. prescribed for 15 years, humira targets and blocks a source of inflammation that contributes to joint pain and irreversible damage. humira can lower your ability to fight infections. serious and sometimes fatal infections including tuberculosis, and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. help stop the clock on further irreversible joint damage.

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all right. that's our show for today. am joy will be back tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. eastern. alex up next with the latest. i understand you're at home in california and crow felt a little bit of that earthquake potentially? >> felt them both. of course i remember last weekend when you were here everything was calm, cool, and collected. i get to wn