beat." and it's a reminder that as with sports and culture and so many other things that fill our day-to-day lives we can take inspiration for the kind of world we want to live in. hats off to that incredible team that does it for "the beat" tonight. i'll see you back here tomorrow, 6:00 p.m. eastern. and i'll see you in washington next week when we go down there for the mueller report and the mueller hearing. "hardball" starts now. passing the buck. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. it was a remarkable scene this afternoon urged by the president, labor secretary alexander acosta took questions from the press about his role years earlier in letting jeffrey epstein off with a light sentence. it was a reality tv effort to salvage his job, and let's watch. >> times have changed and

coverage of this case has certainly changed since that article. facts are important and facts are being overlooked. the goal here was straight forward. put epstein behind bars, insured he registered as a sexual offender, provides victims with the means to seek restitution, and protect the public by putting them on notice that a sexual predator was in their midst. it was complicated by the fact that this matter started as a state investigation. a state grand jury brought that single completely unacceptable charge. we believe that we proceeded appropriately. >> well, as you heard there, secretary acosta blamed the palm beach state attorney's office for the 2008 plea deal, but late tonight the former palm beach state attorney himself slammed the secretary's defense, writing in a statement, "i can emphatically state mr. acosta's

recollection of the matter is completely wrong. if mr. acosta was truly concerned about the state's case and felt he had to rescue the matter, he would have moved forward with a 53-page indictment that his own office drafted. instead, mr. acosta brokered a secret deal. mr. acosta should not be able to rewrite history. acosta was critical of the lenient jail term, telling reporters he deserved a harsher punishment. he seeaid he never approved letting epstein out of jail to go to work every day. >> they didn't hear back from you until it was too late. do you owe them an apology? >> the agreement that had been negotiated had an unusual provision. >> you have no regrets? >> we believe that we proceeded appropriately. >> would you make the samt agreement today? >> today's world treats victims very, very differently. >> but these victims say you

failed them. >> we did what we did because we wanted to see epstein go to jail. >> what is the message to victims who say they don't trust you anymore? >> the message is you need to comeacosta's latest defense again undertaken at the urging of president trump comes amid a growing chorus of people calling for his resignation. that includes the "miami herald," writing today in an editorial, "if acosta when he was u.s. attorney in miami had shown an ounce of sympathy for the vulnerable girls epstein sexually exploited, they would have had a powerful voice on their side. they didn't. not only did acosta fail to get it right in 2008, he didn't care to. he has to go." sources tell nbc news tonight that president trump spoke to labor secretary alex acosta by phone tuesday afternoon, that was yesterday, and urged him to hold the press conference today. "the new york times" report the president monitored his performance today closely. a former administration official familiar with the matter told

politico that accoosta amountedo a kavanaugh 2.0 rebuttal. he was talking to trump today in that press conference. acosta made a point of addressing the president directly here. >> my relationship with the president is outstanding. he has i think very publicly made clear that i've got his support. he spoke yesterday in the oval office. he and i have spoken. i'm here. i'm defending this case. that's my job. >> well, earlier today, the house oversight committee invited secretary acosta to testify to a hearing on july 23rd. in a letter to the secretary, chairman lyme elijah announced the committee would examine acosta's actions as well as the finding that he violated the crime victims' act by keeping the agreement he made secret from the victims. we're joined by kimberly atkins for wbur, peter baker, chief correspondent for "the new york times," barry burger, former federal prosecutor in the

southern district of new york. i want to go to bird on this one. a couple of things. unpack this. the secretary of labor said today it wasn't his fault because if he hadn't gotten involved as a federal prosecutor, there wouldn't have been any jail time at all because the state wasn't going to put him away for any time. and secondly, don't blame me for this crazy deal where the guy can come out every day and go to work six days a week when he was supposedly in jail that is something that was cooked up after the deal and in violation of the deal. how true are those claims? >> what you see there is acosta really trying to pass the buck to the state prosecutors. essentially he is saying the state had negotiated this terrible deal. we had to swoop in and try to save the day, but i think that really falls short. first of all, if he really wanted to swoop in and save the day, it sounds like there is a 53-page indictment that his office had drafted, why not go forward with those charges? we still have not seen a good explanation for why they decided to walkway from federal charges altogether. and if he didn't like the way

that the state charges ended up playing out with him getting out of jail six days a week, again, there were at that time in 2007 and 2008 very on-point federal statutes that would have guaranteed accoosta went to jai for years, not months. that didn't carry much weight for me. >> watching as a prosecutor, what did you think of the latest victim coming uout today? it's amazing listening to what he did to her. this thing is not going away, is it? >> it is definitely not going away. it was incredibly emotional watching her interview today. i think this is going to feed right into the case that the southern district of new york is going to bring. i think perhaps they will add her as a victim to their case. and it just goes to show why sex trafficking charges were so important and continue to be so important for prosecutors to bring. this is a man, jeffrey epstein, who simply has not been held accountable for the horrific conduct that he did. and it's time for somebody to

actually say no. 13 months in jail where you get to leave six out of seven days a week just doesn't seem sufficient. >> knowing what you know of this case and this guy's misdeeds, how much time would you put him away for? >> i did sex trafficking cases where we gave people with far fewer victims a mandatory term ten years in prison. years in prison is absolutely appropriate. >> kimberly, this does a couple of things, because you and i talk about so many things on this program. trump's personality, trump's own rap sheet, the "access hollywood," the women he paid off, all that behavior of his. takes him back to the sleaze problem. he must be thinking every day we're talking about epstein. we're basically talking about me too. >> yes. >> i mean him, not just a movement. >> he's done two things. he distanced himself from epstein as someone he did know and socialized withes years ago. >> 14 times his different phone numbers show up in epstein's book, his black book.

>> but at the same time he demanded that secretary acosta go defend himself in the way, the same as he wanted to see brett kavanaugh defend himself against those charges. but in this case, he wanted acosta to deny it, to defend himself, to give a reason for him to stand behind him. because at the same time, president trump does not like the perception that he is being pushed to do something by democrats, by people in the media. so he wants to fight back against this, and his instinct is to back acosta and to get acosta to defend himself. that's what we saw today. but acosta's biggest concern, according to folks who i talked to who are close to republicans on the hill and the white house is that republicans were not liking the job he was doing. they were trying to get the president to remove it for a reason, because he wasn't rolling back the regulations at the speed they wanted. so this may actually save him to get the president to back him and join in this fight against the democrats. might in a weird way make his job more safe instead of less. >> well, the storm engulfing the secretary of labor has pushed the president's own relationship

with jeffrey epstein, as i said, back into the spotlight where trump doesn't want it. "the new york times" saying a florida businessman saying donald trump and jeffrey epstein were the only guests at an exclusive mar-a-lago party in 1992 attended by -- this is interesting proportions -- two dozen or so women flown in to provide the entertainment. the businessman told "the new york times" he warned trump and jeffrey epstein about epstein, but trump didn't care. the white house did not respond to a request for comment on that allegation. peter, i get the sense that the president -- and kimberly is right. he is with him for an hour or two. but i get a sense that the egg timer has already started on this guy's demise, and today was the first step on the plank to leave the ship. your thoughts. >> well, it's certainly possible. we've seen in the past the president, as kimberly said, forced people under him to go defend themselves when they get in trouble, and when they do well in his view, he keeps them, and when they don't, he doesn't. in this case, we don't have a

verdict yet from the president. he hasn't weighed in on twitter. white house aides assure us that he did well, that mr. acosta did well, but he did not respond to him. so we don't know how he comes out on this at this point. acosta offered sort of a measured even nuance kind of explanation here, whether you accept it or not, by saying i thought that the plea deal was a safer course than taking -- going to trial which would have been a roll of the dice. trump likes a more trumpian kind of defense. this is not a -- he is not known for nuance. we'll see if this satisfied his thirst for a kind of a more robust kind of the defense of the sword that he himself would give if he came under fire. >> kimberly, you're agreeing with this, robustly. >> yes. that's one of the things that i saw is that this was not a kavanaugh defense. kavanaugh was angry and vocal. >> and he attacked his attackers. >> he attacked the attackers. in this case, acosta was very measured, very technical in a sense, trying to explain why

that this deal was secretive that was somehow meant to protect the victim. >> you can't imagine, du it seems to me the victims -- let many go back to berit. it seems if you're a victim of this guy and there are scads of them now coming forward in this dramatic way, as we saw today from the latest victim, they were kids at the time. they were 14 years old. some that young. imagine watching on television what this guy's defense of what he didn't do, his sin of omission. what do you think would work with them? would they be happy with that? by the way, talk about the streaksy of this. he cut a deal with the state of florida in palm beach, the district attorney down there. why was that deal cut secretly and not with the knowledge of the victims? >> yeah, that's a fantastic question. i mean, i think one of the most offensive parts of this whole situation is how these victims were left out of this entire process. i mean, there is a statute, the crime victims rights act that guarantees victims the right to be a full participant in a case.

and not only were they not full participants, they were intentionally kept away from this. they didn't them them they were negotiating a agreement and they were doing that somehow on behalf of the victims because they were hope thanksgiving would get restitution. you know what? some of these victims may not have wanted just restitution. they may have wanted their abuser, jeffrey epstein to actually be behind bars. they may have wanted a different kind of accountable. i think they really let the victims down, and it had to be pretty painful for them to watch that today. >> let me go to peter. it seems to me my memory is pretty good on these things. republicans as a political faction has always been for victims rights. they thought come out against the defendant in the criminal cases, but they were very big on the rights of victims. no interest in this case. no interest. in fact, we're not telling you victims what happened. >> yeah. his explanation was rather -- was technical and hard to maybe follow. his argument was that the deal

they were negotiating would include the ability for victims to seek financial restitution, and that if they had talked to the victims about that, then if mr. epstein didn't follow through with the agreement and insist on a trial, they would understood cut the credibility of the victims by saying they were only out for money. so it's kind of a loose explanation for why the victims were cut out of this. but you're right, it has historically been a republican issue, the victims rights legislation and policies have been in place over the last couple of decades. and that's one of the things that really grates on his critics. we talked to a lawyer for seven of the alleged victims of mr. epstein from the past who says that what secretary acosta is doing here is rewriting history and trying to blame both the prosecutors and in some ways the victims for not being willing to stand up in court at a trial. >> politically, why wouldn't he apologize? acos acosta? he won't do it. >> it is known that this is a president who doesn't like

people who apologize. he doesn't like his aides to apologize. the few instances i can think of when advisers publicly said they might have done something better, that they had some regrets about something, it worked against them with this president. >> yeah. >> i don't know if that's what his motivation was, but certainly he must be aware of that, having served in this administration for a while. apologies don't go over very well in the oval office. >> i guess that's the truth. anyway, president trump has made a habit of defending his cabinet secretaries before having them walk the plank. it's a two-step. he defends and then he dumps. take a look. >> general flynn dozen joy the full confidence of the president. >> michael flynn has resigned. >> i think he is a very fine person. i certainly don't like the optics. >> the secretary of health and human service thomas price offered his resignation earlier today and the president accepted. >> i like him. he is a good man. he is not a racist. i can tell you that. he's a good person. >> a senior administration official is confirming that bannon will be leaving. >> kimberly, a two-step?

>> it is. it depends on the circumstance a lot of times the two-step comes after somebody does something like in bannon's case that trump was angry about. sometimes they defend him. he defended michael flynn for a long time. acosta so far is doing what he thinks the president wants him to do. we will see if he continues to do that and as peter said, if that will be enough for the president. >> well, he left today with some ballyhoo for the economy. i think he was doing his best to throw a doys the president. anyway, thank you, kimberly. thank you kimberly at tins, berit berger, peter baker. the latest example of the british ambassador to the u.s. who said president trump was insecure and incompetent, but the ambassador learned a hard way not to express an opinion, not even in a private cable. today he resigned. trump won this one. plus, more stonewalling from

the justice administration. trying to prevent two of robert mueller's top deputies from even testifying before congress. they got their talons into those guys. what is the attorney general afraid they're going to say? and 20 years after his death, john f. kennedy jr. remains a fascinating american icon. a friend of his will be here with new details of his incredible life and death. stick with us. icwith us. why fingerstick when you can scan? with the freestyle libre 14 day system just scan the sensor with your reader, iphone or android and manage your diabetes. with the freestyle libre 14 day system, a continuous glucose monitor, you can check your glucose levels any time, without fingersticks. ask your doctor to write a prescription for the freestyle libre 14 day system. you can do it without fingersticks. learn more at freestylelibre.us it's how we care for our patients- like job. his team at ctca treated his cancer and side effects.

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welcome back to "hardball." british ambassador to the u.s. kim darroch has learned the hard way not to give his opinion of donald j. trump. darroch resigned today after days of leaked cables where he called president trump inept, insecure, incompetent. in his resignation letter, darroch wrote "the current situation is making it impossible for me to carry out my role as i would like." in a series of tweets yesterday, president trump called darroch wacky and very stupid before

adding "i don't know the ambassador but have been told he is a pompous fool". this is the president of the united states talking about the ambassador from britain. the "washington post" reports the president's selective amnesia, noting that darroch has been in every meeting between british prime theresa may and donald trump. he adds the familiar pattern for trump who is quick to minimize ties with people who criticize him or who find themselves facing an onslaught of negative intention that reflects poorly on him. here are just a few of the others who have gotten the "i don't know them" treatment from this president. >> has nothing to do with our campaign. >> i haven't spoken to mike until a long time. >> whittaker, i don't know whittaker. >> james comey, i hardly know the man. i'm not going to say i want you to pledge of allegiance. >> ann coulter, i don't know her. >> i don't know anything about david duke, okay. >> do you have anything further to say on this miss universe thing? >> no, not much. i mean, look, i hardly know this person. >> you and john oliver, hbo guy

got into a little twitter thing. >> i don't even hardly know who he is. >> i don't know who little john is. >> for more, i'm joined by zerlina maxwell, for siriusxm and john brabender, republican strategist. john, you first. the british ambassador from everybody i talked to is an impressive guy, a good guy. he is now been put in the barrel by this president, humiliated, thrown out of his job. his career is a public service. he is no rich guy. he is gone flow a career he worked 40 years to get to u.s. ambassador to the united states. now he is finished because the president -- somebody leaked. >> i don't know the british ambassador. i'm using that as a standard line right now. here is the truth of the matter. the bigger story is this is a relationship that is critical to both sides. and for this to have escalated to this is uncomprehendible. look, when president trump sees these type of criticisms, what

i've learned about him, he sees the criticism of not him but america. >> he is america inept? is america incompetent? nobody has ever said this country is incompetent. >> let's make the point. this guy did write those things down about a country that is very important to them. >> in cable. >> somebody over there leaked them purposely to embarrass this guy, and he is right that he kocould no longer serve in this duty while making these type of comments. and there was no opportunity other than to resign in my opinion. >> zerlina, there is a pattern here of character, which is the president drops anybody who criticizes him from his memory bank. he separates himself from anybody who may have a sleaze problem. he's not reliable as a witness to fact. that's a problem. >> well, i mean, and also he doesn't tell the truth. but chris, if you think about the description in those cables that were released, those are

not unatrue things. to say this administration is dysfunctional, to say that it's disorganized and to allude to the fact that you have to deal with this administration in a particular way when it comes to important issue like foreign policy, i don't think any serious person watching thinks that what the british ambassador said was untrue. i think that it upset trump personally. i disagree. i don't think that he thinks that people are talking about america because he's not defending america and attacking an entire country in these instances. he is attacking people personally by calling them names, calling them stupid. and i think that, you know, it's really beneath the office of the president, but here we are, another day where trump is pretty embarrassing. >> well, i've learned in washington over my many decades here that you don't get in trouble for lying. people get away with lying all the time. when you get in trump for is speaking what you think is the truth. it may not be the truth, but

what you think is the truth, like this guy. this guy is gone from his career because he said the president is what most people think he is. >> well, but the truth of the matter is the president also spoke the truth. and what people criticize this president for is really being a disruptive force in washington, not following the norms that we're used to. >> okay. >> and frankly, you can't argue that some of the results haven't been quite positive by him making -- >> look, you just said to it me five seconds ago. you made fun of the fact that i might have met a few of the british ambassadors, like i'm hanging out with the tops. come on, this is so trumpian. it's like popeye doyle. i'd rather be a lamppost in france than the president of france. he retweeted video from you. let's watch part of what he retweeted. >> if there is one thing we've learned, he's not afraid to go it alone. and he does what he thinks is right.

that's called having the courage of your convictions. and despite some hoping he fails and america fail along with it, he just keeps fighting on instead of getting sand kicked in our face. we're now once again leading from the front, a swagger in our step, respect from our allies, fear from our enemies. >> so you're going to put a billion dollars behind this next year? is that the plan? >> the funny thing about it -- >> watch made in america two? >> i got frustrated at nobody defending the president, nobody putting out his brand that will play in place -- >> tell my we countries respect us more now than under obama. >> i think they all do. >> they do? >> name them, please. >> they liked us under obama, but they didn't respect us. and there is a huge difference. and i will tell you what. on the trade wars or anything else, you go to places -- >> zerlina, get in here. >> wisconsin. >> that's how people are thinking. >> so let's stick to the facts. we were just talking about a british ambassador, britain

being one of our most important allies, right, in terms of our standing in the world. that ambassador had to resign after 40 years for saying true things about the president and the white house's dysfunction which is borne out in reporting. so my push back on what you're saying is not necessarily a partisan one. we need to stick to the facts here. all the countries in the world do not respect us more than under president obama. so just name some and specific quotes, and then question have a serious conversation. but -- >> well, for some reason -- >> many countries are on record saying -- >> paid their share of the united nations. >> -- for this administration and this president because of his behavior. he acts very immature on twitter, in public, pushing members of nato out of the way. this is not how any adult should behave, and certainly not a president. >> john, you know when obama went abroad, whether it was berlin or cairo, he got huge crowds. people loved obama around the world. nobody loves trump. >> right. and what you find with trump is he did not get this job because

he wanted to get pats on the back or see if he could get people in other countries to love him. this is what he talks in america first. the context he looks at what is in the best interests of his country. and sometimes is that is going to anger other countries, like china. and he's not afraid to do that. >> does he listen to you? >> i've never met him in my life. >> you're a good pitchman. you're a ballyhoo boy for this guy. thank you so much, john brabender, zerlina maxwell, as always. listen to her on sirius radio. >> thank you. up next, attorney general william barr's justice department accusing congress of trying to create a public spectacle. that's what they say about having robert mueller testify. isn't that why we did a two-year investigation? he comes to congress to say what he discovered. that's a spectacle? i think that's truth-telling. and the democrats say barr is determined to keep the american people in the dark. we'll have more after the break. maria ramirez? hi.

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apparently they can't quit the cover-up. the trump administration continues to attempt its attempt to gag witnesses who have been asked to testify to the congress about the russia probe. "the new york times" reports that the justice department is trying to silence two of robert mueller's deputies. beth had agreed to testify to the house intelligence and judiciary committees behind closed doors. according to the doj official, quote, the department told both

retired officials not to appear. while the former members of mueller's team aaron zebly and james krouse are not obliged to comply it could have a chilling effect once they do show up. it looks like bill barr's latest attempt to conceal the full impact of the mueller report. changed his opinion this week on testimony which is scheduled for next wednesday. barr now objects to mueller appearing before the congress, even though he gave his word in april he had no objection to it. >> i was disappointed to see him subpoenaed because i don't think that serves any purpose dragging bob mueller up if he in fact is going the stick to the report. it seems to me the only reason for doing that is to create some kind of public spectacle. >> will you permit him to testify publicly to congress? >> i have no objection to bob mueller personally testifying. >> so will the justice

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the american people should hear from mueller what was in the report, should hear from mueller about the evidence of the ten obstructions of justice by the president of the repeated instructions by the president to people to lie to them, the american people and to investigating bodies. and of course barr doesn't want that of course he doesn't want to be contradicted in his lies and misrepresentations. >> welcome back to "hardball" that was house judiciary committee chairman jerry nadler responding last night to the attorney general's criticism of robert mueller even testifying before the congress. well, today he confirmed that mueller is still set to testify next wednesday, a week from tonight, but he wouldn't say whether mueller's deputies would also appear. >> mr. nadler, can we ask you

about your case with mueller? is he coming next week? >> he is coming. >> what about the deputies? >> well, tomorrow nadler's committee plans to authorize a new round of subpoenas for additional witnesses, including jared kushner, jeff sessions and corey lewandowski, among others. it comes amid politico reports that few members of congress have actually read the mueller report. i'm joined by congressman eric swalwell, member of the house judiciary and intelligence committees. it's his first msnbc interview since ending his presidential bid. you're smiling, congressman? are you happy anyway? and natasha bertrand is a national security correspondent. i'll get to you in a minute about the campaign, congressman. i do want to snow some thoughts. let's go to natasha to start this thing out. what is barr up to? is he still doing a rear guard effort to scuttle the whole russia probe by making sure nobody testifies we know what's in the mueller report?

>> well, it certainly seems that way. barr was probably banking on mueller not testifying, right? because mueller made it very clear that he did not want to go before congress and reiterate the report, which he had spent two years working on so. i think now the kind of last-ditch effort here is to try to scuttle his deputies from testifying behind closed doors because they're the ones that can really get into the nuts and bolts of this. not only are they going to be testifying privately, which is a more secure setting, obviously, but they have also been two of the people closest to the investigation, two of the people closest to bob mueller. james quarles is the one that dealt with the white house directly on issues of obstruction of justice. and aaron zebly was the liaison with doj, the justice department. these are two people who could really get into the weeds here with members of congress. and it's unclear -- actually, it seems pretty clear now that barr really doesn't want them to do that. >> congressman, you're a politician as well as an investigator in this case and a recent campaign. it looks to me like barr has already been successful in

dousing the fireworks. from the beginning, he distorted what the mueller report was. he gave a false misleading, didn't have anything about collusion, really didn't have obstruction conclusively. didn't visit. even the day the report he finally let it out, he basically doused it again, and here he is dousing it again. i just wonder if there is any hope to get the fireworks lit up again. even if you have hearing next wednesday with the special counsel. your thoughts. >> he is a full obstructer, and he has been emboldened because he hasn't paid the price. the president is certainly not going get rid of him. this is what the president wants him to do. but he is -- there is going to be an accounting for what he has done. it won't happen as fast of all of us want it to happen, but he is doing this for one simple reason and one reason only, to protect the president, to bury the evidence that hurts the president as far beneath the earth as possible and hope they run out the clock so we can't get it. but we are winning court fights. we are getting these witnesses

to come in. and the american people are going to see that this president drew his campaign very closely to the russians, and then when he was caught and confronted with it, they sought to cover it up. >> well, meanwhile, natasha, you've been reporting that the justice department officials interviewed former british intelligence officer christopher steele as part of the inspector general's inquiry into the origins of the russia probe, and you report the interview was contentious at first, but investigators ultimately found steele's testimony credible and even surprising. the extensive interview with steele may dampen expectations among the president's allies who have claimed that steele's sensational dossier was used improperly by the bureau. during the break i was asking do you think republicans' counteroffense, the red hots, the tea party types on the committees, are they going to get anywhere in disrupting the hearings next week? >> we know what they're going to ask. they're going to play the greatest hits. why did you only hire democrats to proceed with this investigation? why didn't you grill peter strzok more, you know, effectively when you found out

that he was sending these text messages? and they're also going to say, well, when did you find out that there was no, quote/unquote conspiracy between the campaign and russia? these are things that mueller can easily push back on. he chose the most qualified people for the job. the investigation moved at a record pace because these people were so confident. and with regard to the collusion and conspiracy question, there was a lot of corruption in this entire probe there was a lot of use of encrypted communications. these are things that mueller can get at and say it took a while for us to conclusively determine that we could not establish in a criminal context that a conspiracy had occurred. and with regard to christopher steele, we're now seeing that the inspector general perhaps is a looking at him in a new light. so when that report comes out, it may also put everything into a new perspective. >> well, the president today tweeted a video of his lawyer rudy giuliani saying on fox news last night that the entire investigation about the russia probe was a plot to frame trump. let's watch rudy for trump. >> the reality is that this was a plot from the very beginning

to frame trump. that's what you're going to find out. it's rather complex. it has a whole counterintelligence spin to it, and it's going to get worse and worse and worse. >> what do you make of that? by the way, i got to ask you about something that's political. now that you're running for reelection, eric, to the house of representatives. maybe this is too touchy, but it's a good one. back when nixon was in trouble, he said i knew i was in trouble when i saw who was running the show on the hill that was tip o'neill. he was going to get him after watergate. does it hurt your party that the speak other telephone house now, democrat nancy pelosi has been basically horatio at the bridge basically stopping the impeachment effort, and is that going to hurt next year that you lacked the leadership to go after trump when you had the chance? >> i wouldn't say she is stopping at all, chris. >> she isn't? no. >> everybody thinks she is. >> well, mueller wouldn't be coming in next week if she was stopping it, right? she would say move on. i think what she is doing, she plays a different role than i. i want an impeachment inquiry. she is the conductor of this

symphony, and she wants to make sure all the instruments are tuned and all the performers are playing off the same sheet of music. >> you are arguing to me now you believe at some point she will give you the good ahead for impeachment? you believe that in the next two years? you believe that? i don't believe it. >> here is what the president should believe is if she does move in that direction, he should be really worried because she is a very prepared and focused leader, and if that's where we end up, he's in trouble. >> i don't think she's going to move for it. i think she made a decision strategical strategically. it's not in the interest of getting reelected as speaker or the householding the house. do you still think joe biden is too old to be president? >> no, it's never about age. >> you say it's time to pass the or the newschannel the debates. >> right. and someone could be new on the scene that is an older american. it was about having a next generation of leadership and making sure that these issues that we're facing right now on gun violence, on student loan debt -- >> yeah, but you said it's time for a generational change.

it's time to pass the torch. you were talking directly to the former vice president. why you changing your tune now? >> it's time to pass the torch to people who have not been around for decades working on these issues. i am of a generation that has lived with failure to act on a lot of these issues, and we want to step up and lead right now. but look, joe biden can beat donald trump. kamala harris can beat donald trump. elizabeth warren can beat donald trump. we've got a lot of talented folks. it's nice to be citizens sitting on the couch with my 2-year-old son and my 8-month-old daughter and watching this play out. >> do you think biden is competent to be president? >> yes. >> but you said he had to pass the torch. i don't get you on this. explain to me the difference between pass the torch to a younger generation and saying he is too old. what's the difference between those two statements? >> i just happen believe and my candidacy was rooted in that passing the torch to the generation that's going to have to live with the consequences of inaction on climate, that is going to have to live on the quicksand of student loan debt

that people are on and the fear that people have sending their kids to school and fearing gun violence, we're living these issues, and maybe perhaps we should be leading on it and being on the stage with donald trump. but look, our candidacy didn't take off. i feel comfortable that we did get joe biden and bernie sanders and kamala harris to say they supported my ban on a buyback on assault weapons, and we accomplished that. i'm going to go back to the work i do in the house and i'm going to be a better congressman because i made this case. >> welcome back. i had to hit you on this. >> it's my job. >> you threw the long ball and it was intercepted tonight. anyway, thank you. u.s. congressman eric swalwell. >> thanks, chris. >> welcome back to the house and welcome back to "hardball." natasha bertrand, great reporter. up next, a new report of the life and legacy of john f. kennedy jr. who died in a plane crash 20 years ago. we have a lot of details from a great author about how it happened, how he lost his life. stick around. chugga-chugga, charles! my man!

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would you think of a magazine editor getting into politics. steve forbes, barkley, bradley. are we getting beyond the usual suspects and are tired of the usual suspects? >> i'm not sure it's all that different. i think if historically americans have always been frustrated with what they perceived inside washington and outside. i think people are intrigued by novelty. and when you have a new face

comes up, you know, people are -- it's a way of kind of spicing up what is a long election. >> a couple of guys long ago talking about politics. welcome back to "hardball" that was of course john f. kennedy jr. with me back in 1996 on the first edition of the show that later became "hardball." on the prospects of that conversation of nonpoliticians like guess who running for office. next week will mark the 20th anniversary since the death of john f. kennedy jr. the son of a president, he had the same lightness of personality i can say that that his father had, but never jumped at the chance to follow in his footsteps politically. his life was cut shore short when his plane he was piloting crashed off the coast of martha's vineyard killing him, his wife and sister-in-law. a new book titled "four friends" looks at the life and death of kennedy as well as three of his high school roommates who also died young. william cohen, special correspondent for "vanity fair" and a high school friend. so let's talk about risk-taking. he took off that night in the dark. he hadn't been checked out as an

instruments flier. what was that about him that he was the kind of guy who took chances he didn't have to take? >> well, he took chances with his own life, chris, as i'm sure you know this. is a guy who would unfortunately go kayaking in the arctic. he would go kayaking in scandinavia with friends. he got lost on a trip to africa. john always thought the rules of human behavior didn't necessarily apply to him. on this particular night, of course, he was going to go with the flight instructor, but being the kind of guy he was, a real gentleman to a fault, unfortunately, he told the flight instructor not to go with him because it had come late at night. his wife was delayed getting a ma mani/pedi and didn't get to new jersey until an hour and a half late and le told the flight instructor not to go with him. and he wasn't certified for flying in those hazy, hot humid conditions but did it anyway

without a flight instructor. >> your description is so vivid about a guy flying a plane, a brand-new pilot, basically, about three hours of flying time, and he is up there, and it's dark. it's hazy out. it's like he is in a box. he can't see anything, and he doesn't know how to read the instruments properly, and he doesn't know if he is up or down. meanwhile, he has a wife in the back seat with her sister, god knows what mood they were in. imagine the horror. talk about that. that was your -- i don't know how you cannot want to read that and be just amazed by it. >> i mean, obviously, the horror of that realizing, come to realizing at that moment that you've made a fatal error in judgment, you know, and the same thing happened to two of my other friends from andover. literally, chris, i think we could be talking about a president john f. kennedy jr. now if he hadn't made that fatal decision 20 years ago. he was that charismatic. he was that talented. he was a magnet for people, as you well know. you can see from that clip.

talk about a fresh new face. >> he was always light and wonderful when i got a chance to hang out with him. but let me ask you about his decision. he did step back, according to your writing and reporting when hillary clinton wanted to run that seat in new york. he thought the senate was boring. hanging around voting in committee didn't excite him. but according to your report, he was thinking about running against george pataki when pataki went for his third term in 2002. >> absolutely right. john thought of himself as a ceo. he had been running "george" with some various degrees of success. he did not see himself as a one of 100 in the u.s. senate. he did not see himself as a legislator. he saw himself as an executive. he wanted to be different than the other members of his family who went into politics and were more in the legislative branch, obviously, except for his father. and i think that's what he saw himself. and there is no question, i think he could have beaten pataki. i don't think he would have challenged a barack obama in

2008, but i can be damned well sure that he would be challenging a donald trump in 2016. >> quickly, the marriage doesn't look so good. >> no. >> it looked good on the outside. what was wrong? >> just a disaster. from the start, i think it was -- i mean, it was a totally physical romantic relationship. they were desperately in love, but then they fell completely out of love. i think at the end here at the time of his death he was living apart from her. he was living in the stan hope hotel, and i think he was getting ready to move on to find somebody new who could be a political wife for him. >> unbelievable reporting. this is block busting stuff for you. william cohan, thank you. the book is called "four friends" a lot of it about john f. kennedy jr. four promising lives cut short, it's called. up next, the u.s. women's soccer team. boy, did we cheer for them, an incredible on the streets of new york city today when they were applauded as they should been. what a moment for women in

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national heroes back from the front, which of course they are. the victory parade traveled down that special stretch of broadway known as the canyon of heroes where conquerors of the past have been honored where they were given the keys to the city today. here is u.s. team captain megan rapinoe speaking to the crowd. >> this is my charge to everyone. we have to be better. we have to love more, hate less. we got to listen more and talk less. it's our responsibility to make this world a better place. i think this team does an incredible job of taking that on our shoulders and understanding the position that we have and the platform that we have within this world. yes, we play sports. yes, we play soccer. yes, we're female athletes, but we're so much more than that. >> that was team captain megan rapinoe. the world cup champions attribute it to team work, will to win and athletic pride.

they had a lot of that. as a husband and father and family of women athletes, my wife kathleen played tennis at stanford, my daughter carolyn was an inveterate midfielder in soccer, it's even grander to be in a country in love with these champions that thrilled us game after game. i watched a lot of them, especially when we beat the brits. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on "all in" -- >> my relationship with the president is outstanding. >> the labor secretary fighting to keep his job. >> as to a message to the victims, the message is you need to come forward. >> alex acosta defends the sweetheart deal he made with sex predator jeffrey epstein as a new victim comes forward. >> if i wasn't afraid to come forward sooner, then maybe he wouldn't have done it to other girls. >> tonight new detailed of epstein's alleged crimes, and new scrutiny of the president's relationship with him. >> i was not a fan