rises. you're getting this from steve levine so you can talk to him about this. >> we were talking about the labor secretary alex acosta earlier. what should we be looking for in from this white house, from president trump in terms of signals that would suggest how much longer the labor secretary will have his job? >> well, as we know in president trump's world he likes to say that everything is coming in about two weeks. i highly doubt that he'll handle that with something so flip nant a situation like this. but what we've seen this folks in the past is that he likes to tweet about these things. he likes to tweet when people are departing with a farewell and usually a positive farewell with people embroiled in scandals. but i don't look for it to come soon because he won't want it to look like he's being pressured from outside forces. >> thank you. of course, as you said, we'll be reading axios in a little while, i think it's about ten minutes or so. to all of our viewers out there you can too sign up for the

newsletter at sign jum.axios.com. >> and that does it for us on this friday -- >> it's thursday. >> it is. >> come on, jeff. >> it's called the trumpian time vortex where every day runs into the next. "morning joe" starts right now. thanks for spending your morning with us. several young women who say they were teenagers when jeffrey epstein sexually assaulted them. they say they went to you looking for help and they didn't hear back from you until it was too late. do you owe them an apology? >> so you're raising the issue of victim notification. and in the documents that i've circulated i've addressed the issue of victim notification as well. the career prosecutor in this case had a difficult decision to make. and she didn't make it alone. she made it in consultation with the fbi and she made it in consultation with the office. >> you have no regrets?

>> we believe that we proceeded appropriately. >> would you make this same agreement today? >> i don't think we can say, you know, take a case that is this old and fully know how it would play out today. >> but these victims say you failed them. >> i understand what the victims say. and i'm not here to try to say that i can stand in their shoes or that i can address their concerns. i'm here to say we did what we did because we wanted to see epstein go to jail. >> labor secretary alex acosta has no apologiy for his action with sex offender jeffrey epstein. a deal that let the wealthy financier avoid the possibility of a lengthy jail sentence and

violated a law to notify victims, according to a recent court ruling. on twitter, former justice department spokesman matt miller asked i don't know why acosta doesn't say this in response to the victim question, i'm sorry, i tried to do my best for you. i'm sorry, i wasn't able to get a better outcome. i wish i had. and in hindsight, maybe i made the wrong decisions. i did the best i could, but you deserved better. nope, no apologies. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, july 11th along with joe, willie and me we have white house reporter for the associated press jonathan la mere. in washington, former chairman of the republican national committee now an msnbc political analyst and host of the aptly named podcast the michael steele podcast, michael steele. and in london, washington anchor for bbc world news north america caddie kaye. not waking up early there.

>> not waking up early. jonathan, before we launch into everything else, really quickly, what's the headline out of acosta's press conference yesterday as it pertains to donald trump? did he help himself at all with his audience of one or did he dig his hole only that much deeper? >> well, acosta is the latest example of a person that's associated with this president who doesn't apologize. there was no i'm sorry. there was no expression of regret. this wasn't the fiery performance that we saw from now justice kavanaugh during his confirmation hearings, but there certainly was some defiance here. what we have heard is the president was relatively pleased with how yesterday went. white house aides signaled to the president that they thought did he well. people are rallying around him on the republican side. but will come to play here is how this plays with the media over the next couple days. what the president wants to see now is how it's covered.

how it's covered on cable, in the newspapers these next few days. does this tint drum beats? are more victims going to come forward. if this stays in the news and stays the dominate story, the secretary may have a hard time keeping ton his job even though he's safe at this moment. >> all right. we're following a lot of stories this morning, including house speaker nancy pelosi appearing to issue a warning to her fellow democrats telling them to come talk to her first instead of tweeting complaints. and alexandria ocasio-cortez is responding. nationwide raids to arrest thousands of undocumented immigrants are set to begin on sunday, "the new york times" reports citing current and former homeland security officials. a state department intelligence analysts has resigned in protest after the white house blocked portions of his written testimony on climate change and its threats to national security. and president trump's fourth of

july administration has bankrupted washington, d.c.'s security and antiterrorism fund according to the city's mayor. and new york city celebrated the four-time world cup champion u.s. women's national team with a ticker tape parade through lower manhattan yesterday as chance of equal pay broke out during the ceremony at city hall. [ chanting equal pay ]. >> all right. i have chills. that's fantastic. >> that's something you could take up with the labor secretary. >> i love it. speaking of the labor secretary, let's talk about the day. >> speaking of labor secretary alex acosta defending his role in cutting a sweetheart deal for wealthy sex offender jeffrey epstein a decade ago.

a 2008 plea deal that let him avoid a lengthy jail sentence and violated a law to notify victims according to a recent court ruling. critics say acosta's offer also shielded others who may have been implicated in epstein's misconduct. so some would say this is a favor for a lot of different people. a person familiar with the matter tells nbc news that president trump spoke to acosta by phone on tuesday afternoon and urged him to hold a news conference to answer reporter's questions about the case. acosta read an eight-minute statement and took questions for about 45 minutes in which he deflected the blame to local prosecutors. victims reluctant to be identified, and the times they were in. >> facts are important. and facts are being overlooked. this matter started as a state matter. he was prosecuted initially by the state of florida and not by

the u.s. attorney's office. the palm beach state attorney's office was ready to let epstein walk free, no jail time, nothing. prosecutors in my former office found this to be completely unacceptable. and they became involved. our office became involved. without the work of our prosecutors, epstein would have gotten away with just that state charge. >> so secretary acosta pointing the finger at the palm beach county state attorney. barry christian responded last night. he said he can emphatically state that secretary acosta is completely wrong. in a statement he said federal prosecutors do not take a backseat to state prosecutors, that's not how the system works in the real world. the u.s. attorney's office produced a 53-page indictment that was abandoned after secret negotiations between mr. epstein's lawyers and mr. acosta approximately the state attorney's office was not a party to those meetings or

negotiations and definitely had no part in the federal nonprosecution agreement. and the usual confidentiality agreement that kept everything hidden from the victims. if mr. acosta was truly concerned with the state's case and felt had he to rescue the matter, he would have moved forward with the 53-page indictment that his own office drafted. instead, mr. acosta brokered a secret plea deal that resulted in a nonprosecution agreement in violation of the crime victims rights act. that is the palm beach county aattorney, mika, firing back at secretary acosta. >> there's a lot to unpack here. in a moment we'll bring in former federal prosecutor us plus more reporting on how the acosta appearance came to be. but first, last night former u.s. attorney and nbc news law enforcement analysts chuck rosenberg had a strong fact check of acosta. we want to play for you now some more of acosta's arguments interspersed with chuck's

analysis. >> the palm beach state attorney's office was ready to let epstein walk free, no jail time, nothing. >> if alex acosta thought that the case was not being properly handled by the state, he had the complete ability to bring charges federally. >> these cases are complex. especially when they involve children. scared and traumatized, refusing to testify. >> they had more than 30 minor child victims in this case. even if a bunch of them didn't want to testify, and i completely understand that, some number would. >> but today they question the terms of that ultimatum, what's called the nonprosecution agreement. >> if they felt they didn't have the quantum of proof they needed they could continue the investigation until they did. there was no time stamp on this. there was no urgency to negotiate a nonpros agreement. >> based on the evidence, there was value to getting a guilty

plea. >> we don't normally or routinely or almost ever end cases with a nonprosecution agreement. if we don't have a case, we simply don't bring it. >> or we'd roll the dice and bring a federal indictment. >> there were thousands of prosecutors and cops and agents around the country making difficult sex crimes cases. the notion that we couldn't bring such a case all the way back in 2007 is deeply wrong and deeply dangerous. and by the way, deeply insulting to the men and women who are doing this kind of work. >> let's bring in former federal prosecutor elliot williams. he has served as develop assistant attorney general for legislative affairs in the u.s. department of justice. elliot, thanks for being on this morning. chuck rosenberg really refuted pretty much everything acosta said in that news conference yesterday. how does this play out moving forward given now what the southern district of new york is doing? it seems like every point he's

making can be undermined and at some point does acosta get held accountable? >> well, i don't know if acosta gets held accountable, mika, because it seems that the thing that gets you fired from this administration is disloyalty to the president or weakness and not misconduct if he's -- >> but what about the law? >> well, he's not likely to face any personal liability for this because -- and let's talk about matt miller's tweet from a little bit earlier. even if he were to acknowledge wrongdoing or fault, he's not going to get sued for it as a prosecutor because prosecutors have a tremendous amount of discretion to decide whether to bring cases. look, sometimes you just make a bad call. what he should have done is said i made a bad call, i exercised my discretion in a poor way and i'm profoundly sorry. but he didn't do that. i think he takes a reputational hit for a while. but until the president decides that he's done with alex acosta, alex acosta remains labor secretary. >> but, elliot, this isn't a close call, though, is it?

here you have a guy who had over 30 victims who had already come forward at that point. and not only did he give this guy a sweetheart deal, he made sure that no one else could prosecute him anywhere in the united states of america. that is not a missed call. that's not just failing of the margins. that's far more than that, is it not? >> seorry, joe. it's the exercise of poor judgment. it's not a close call at all. let's not give the palm beach county's state's attorney office a free pass either. they signed off on that 13-month deal that had epstein able to work every day and, you know, it was a slap on the wrist too. but we have to focus our attention on acosta. as the federal prosecutor here, he's at the top of the pecking order of law enforcement down there and they could have given him 15-year mandatory minimum sentences for some of the conduct if he was found with

child pornography on his computer. so, but i think in this fight between the locals and the feds, i think we're looking away from the conduct of the locals as well. and they fell asleep on the job too. everybody failed here and thankfully the new york federal prosecutors have picked up the ball and hopefully will advance this forward in the way that the victims and these crimes deserve. >> well, michael steele, let's answer mika's question about the accountability. will acosta be held accountable? i think other thapt presiden tht of the united states, everybody that i've heard from and read from thought he did a miserable performance, some white house aides say he hurt his chances of surviving. politically, politically what was the takeaway of yesterday's press conference? >> i think that's close to where everyone settled here in town,

joe, the idea that acosta did not go out there as a fire brand as we saw in the kavanaugh hearings part two where after the break kavanaugh came back and really showed that he was going to fight for this -- this argument on behalf of his appointment. and here you didn't see acosta make the case to the president why he should say. way the president typically likes to see it, which it to push back against the system, make the proper noise. so that did weaken his position inside the administration with the president. to the extent that this continues, to jonathan's reporting earlier, that if this continues to bleed out, which will it will. this story is not going to go away. it is not going to dissipate. there's only going to be more narrative to come from it. i suspect by the end of the summer, beginning of the fall, that bubble begins to have some holes in it for acosta with the

president if he doesn't come back and just forcefully assert his case the way the president would like to see it done. >> you know, willie, unfortunately if you're acosta, there is no asserting yourself forcefully and defending yourself forcefully. sometimes you're just -- you're in a situation that can't be defended. again, this was -- it was very clear, even when we go back to that 2002 party where donald trump and epstein were having a party by themselves. >> oh my god. >> with all of those calendar girls, the guy that was bringing the calendar girls down, and i put that in quotation marks, said to trump, warned him, warned him of his reputation with underage girls. said he wanted no part of it. trump himself in 2002 told new yorker magazine that epstein

liked young girls. everybody knew this. acosta by 2007 had 30 young minors coming forward saying that they had been raped or sexually abused or sexually harassed by jeffrey epstein and he still put forward a deal that would shield epstein forever from prosecution. i don't think you can defend that in a press conference. >> and he tried yesterday, right? that was secretary acosta's best defense. that was the best performance he could possibly give and it wasn't very convincing and for all the reasons we just laid out. president trump, as we know, has no particular affection for alexander acosta. he's not a loyalist and not a guy who's been by his side for a long time. i think if president trump finds him disposable he will dispose of him quickly. and anybody who's not inside the family at this point is disposable. i wouldn't expect acosta to last if this continues to heat up. i wanted to ask elliot to look at the big picture of what's going on. given your experience as a

prosecutor, given everything you know about the legal system and some of the pressures that might be put on from the outside by powerful people, what do you think happened here? why would alexander acosta, a guy who had a good record previous to this, was, you know, he's a well pedigreed attorney and everything else, why would he enter into this nonprosecution agreement? why he would ignore a 53-page indictment and more than 30 victims in this case? what do you see going on here, elliot? >> look, we all read the miami herald piece that laid this out beautifully that said that you had an incredibly influential defend with incredibly high-powered attorneys who was able to beat a case. that's what it came down to. look, there were -- you know, as joe said, dozens and dozens of victims here. and, you know, if they wanted to bring a case, they could have figured out a way to make it. now, as we know,eri everything t was charged in new york could have been charged back then because it was largely the same conduct and there would have been a nexus between florida and

new york if they had taken the time to look for it or been able to find it. and so, no, it's a wealthy defendant with a lot of money that might have caused a lot of heartburn to a state -- pardon me, to a federal prosecutor's office down there and i think they might have just gotten spooked. >> what does that mean to cause heartburn? if your job is to protect the victims and prosecute a case, what does money do to a prosecutor? >> sure. so for instance they could have embarrassed the victims, they could have embarrassed the prosecutor. this happens all the time. people lodge their defenses and they're entitled do so. but when you have a lot of high-power attorneys and a lot of money, you can cause a higher profile problem for a federal prosecutor's office. and i think they might have gotten scared. and julie brown's miami herald piece really lays this out talking about frankly the interplay between how the prosecutors and the defense attorneys were talking to each other. there's a quote from one of the articles that one of the line prosecutors was scouring the

code for misdemeanors she could charge because she wanted it go away and didn't want to charge him with the felony. they were just trying to avoid, it appears, that they were just trying to avoid publicity, they were trying to avoid drama, for lack of a better term for the prosecutor's office. but you're right, willie, your job is to protect the public. and, again, thankfully the southern district of new york has taken -- it took a decade do so. and i guess one additional point in just responding to acosta's point that views have changed since this came out that the way we treat victims is different. i was a prosecutor first in 2004. it has never been the case that prosecutors have been reluctant to believe the views of sex assault survivors or that prosecutors have been afraid of bringing these cases forward. i think that -- it was a master class in defensiveness and in buck passing, but that's just not the way it works and he have you had known better than to make a comment like that. >> so, caddie, what we're

finding as we pull back this sorry story, we're finding that not only acosta and the u.s. attorney's office failed, you also, of course, heard elliot's criticism of what happened in palm beach. you also know are getting reports out of new york that the da's office in new york did not check on -- did not make epstein check in regularly. that the new york city police did not make him check in regularly. we've heard that the palm beach county sheriff's office would allow him to go from his halfway house being picked up by his valet. everybody was allowing this guy to get away with raping little girls, slapping him on the wrist, and doing everything they could to play nice with jeffrey epstein. and the question that hovers above all of these jurisdictions and all of these decisions, is why? >> it's an incredibly painful

sorry from the point of view of the victims. and the only legitimate apology that alex acosta could possibly have made yesterday, the honest one, would be to say i let a wealthy, powerful person get the better of a justice system. we are not all equal in the eyes of the law. this case suggests if you're jeffrey epstein and you have clout and you can use your money and your power because you have potentially political influence as well, then you can get away with this kind of thing. that was the only apology. it was not a question of alex acosta being able to say, i did the best possible job did i or back in 2008 things were different. we're talking about 2008 here, we're not talk about the 1960s. this is 2008 and it's not the case as elliot was just saying, the prosecutors didn't take into account victim trauma or didn't take into account the fact that stories might change or that victim shaming was allowed in the is not very long ago. and yet what this simply is a case of somebody who is rich and powerful being able to get away

with abhorrent behavior because he could use his political clout. >> so, joe, he was button this up and go to break, i just have to ask as we -- as we look at this entire conversation we just had, how possible is it that this is just a miserable job done by alex acosta? that he was just bad at his job? how possible is it that just jeffrey epstein raped young girls in this grand scheme, how possible is it that this wasn't some scheme that involved a lot of powerful men who wanted to cover for themselves and had some sort of deal going with alex acosta? and that is why i wonder how there could be no legal ramifications for those in charge here. for those who were in charge of protecting the victims and, instead, covered up for jeffrey epstein. but you got to be kidding me. that we're just talking about jeffrey epstein here. does anyone disagree? >> well, first of all, that's

why one of the reasons why the southern district's investigation, new york's investigation, in nto these charges is going to be so important. because we're going to find out. there have been people who have accused others. and the miami herald has reported that. we know that jeffrey epstein had power that could scare off prosecutors, perhaps, because of money. powerful lawyers because of money. but also you have to go back to this time period and see that he was closely connected with donald trump, as we've said. he and trump would have parties by themselves at mar-a-lago, shut the whole place down. >> with bringing in girls. >> parties by themselves and bringing in girls by themselves. if you don't think that didn't get around palm beach, everybody knew that he was connected with trump who was one of the most powerful forces in palm beach at the time throwing around money.

and then of course when you go to the state of new york you have recently retired, you know, the 40th president -- the 42nd president of the united states, bill clinton, who flew around with him regularly. you also, of course, very powerful lawyers, like allan r dershowitz were connected with epstein. did he show wits was quoted saying if you're in new york city you had to know donald trump and jeffrey epstein and hang out with them because they were the epicenter of power. those were dershowitz' words. with that as a backdrop, you have to ask the question, was it about money? was it about the powerful lawyers? or was it about the powerful people that jeffrey epstein always surrounded himself with? >> who needed cover. >> we don't know, but we will find out, i think, after this investigation unfolds exactly

who was with him on his island, in his manhattan townhouse while some very bad things were going on. >> oh, and wait, alex acosta gets job as labor secretary. interesting. elliot williams, thank you very much. still ahead on "morning joe," nancy pelosi takes on the squad. tensions are flaring between the house speaker and four progressive freshmen democrats despite a new call for unity. plus, new reporting that iranian ships tried to intercept a british tanker in the persian gulf. we'll talk to a member of the house's armed services committee. but first let's good to bill with a check on the severe weather headed toward the gulf coast. all eyes are on new orleans and louisiana, that's who's going to get hit the worse. the yesterday was bad enough. advertiser of this storm dropped 6 to 10 inches of rainfall and overwhelmed the pump system in new orleans. widespread flood was reported. a lot of that has been cleared

out now with the pump system but additional rain and flooding is expected in this city. let's get to the storm. it's still a disturbance, it is not yet a depression, that should happen later today. the hurricane center thinks it should become a tropical storm in about 28 hours and 48 hours from now become a hurricane just south of southern louisiana. we've taken houston out of this, it's mostly a louisiana problem and rainfall problem in areas of mississippi. here's my greatest concern. here's the storm surge forecast. you don't need a powerful hurricane to cause problems with rainfall and surge. the winds, this is 1:00 saturday right up the mouth of the mississippi river. that's where we're most concerned with the new orleans area. the forecast has it at 20 feet. a lot of the levies are at 20 feet in new orleans that. would mean the possibility of overtopping. at this point we think the levy system should hold up. but overtopping, if it overwhelms the pumps it could cause flooding. we'll give you more updates as

the storm begins to strengthen and possibly becomes hurricane barry. new york city, the northeast, we're watching the threat of some thunderstorms today. grab that umbrella, throw it in your bag. those be coming around this afternoon into the evening rush hour. you're watching morning he joe. we'll be right back. g he joe we'll be right back. johnson & johnson is a baby company. but we're also a company that controls hiv, fights cancer, repairs shattered bones, relieves depression, restores heart rhythms, helps you back from strokes, and keeps you healthy your whole life. from the day you're born we never stop taking care of you. there was no hesitation, i went straight to ctca. after my mastectomy, it was maddening because i felt part of my identity was being taken away.

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caddie, you're in london. i'm curious what the reaction is to the united states pressuring the british government to get rid of their ambassador, making him step down. and also very frightening the hacked cables. it seems to me to be a threat not only it british ambassadors, but ambassadors across the globe. any idea who hacked derek's cables? >> no. there's been a special inquiry launched in parliament around this and there's lots of speculation but at the moment

was it a foreign actor? was it some other state? was it a disgruntled member of the civil servant in someone with a personal grudge against the ambassador to washington? all of that is speculation at the moment. we don't know. it casts a chill, as you suggests, on ambassadors, not just british ambassadors, but american ambassadors who are meant to be sending back their candid opinions from beijing or saudi arabia and will now think, wow, my cables could also be hacked. in terms of what this suggests about the relationship between the british government and washington, the view here is that the trump administration bullied britain and british officials including boris johnson potentially the next prime minister of the united kingdom didn't stand up for their own person. and that is why sir kim darrach had to step down. the special relationship doesn't look very special at the moment. it looks like we are in a position where britain is subservient to washington's way and donald trump, if he doesn't like somebody, can get away with this kind of behavior.

and there's not much recourse that britain has when we are desperate post brexit for some kind of a trade deal that the white house will likely be negotiating. it's a bad precedent in terms of the independence of diplomats and it doesn't look good for the state of politics for the british/american relationship. >> it's also bad because darroch said privately, was trying to say privately what every ambassador i've spoken to from all across the world has said about donald trump. so speaking of boris johnson, is he in line to be the next british prime minister? >> it's hard to see that he won't be, joe. i mean, our political people here in washington -- in london are saying that barring something extraordinary, boris johnson will be britain's next prime minister. he gets to be chosen by conservative party members, that's a very small group of people amongst whom he is

extremely popular. a little bit like trump supporters. there's not much that boris johnson can do that will dissuade them. and what he has been saying over this whole issue of the ambassadors, he's been prizing this special relationship that he says he has with donald trump. but anyone who's watched foreign leaders deal with donald trump thinks that just because you think you have a special relationship means you're going to get a special deal, you have to think again, right? donald trump doesn't stick by people just because they flatter him. emmanuel macron of france tried that, it didn't work out so well. so boris johnson isn't going to be able to think i have this special relationship with trump so i'm going to get a special deal for the united kingdom. i just don't think that's how this white house works. >> just to bounce back to the british ambassador being run out, the president called him on twitter wacky, called him a pompous fool, stupid, all these things. how did this play out in the white house once those cables were leaked? it was a pretty quick death i imagine for the ambassador? >> it was. the ambassador used to be pretty popular in the white house. west wing officials would

frequently be guests at events in washington. but as soon as these cables leaked it changed on a dime. president was, as we reported, in a rage about it. he cannot handle moflt of all is to be embarrassed, laughed at, slighted publicly, not to be taken seriously. that fuels his anger domestically and on the world stage. as soon he's started signaling that he wouldn'ting dealing we this ambassador anymore, the rest of the white house followed suit and as caddie said, it was when boris johnson said he did not offer his support to the ambassador that the writing then was officially on the wall and there was no choice. the white house then pushed him out and the resignation came quickly thereafter. >> all right. the opinion pages are next, including one that calls joe biden a closet republican. we'll be right back. n a closet . we'll be right back. most people think a button is just a button.

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time now for the must-read opinion pages. and in his latest column "the new york times" entitled "joe biden, closet republican" frank puts forth that former vice

president biden is the liberal bob dole, the looser mitt romney, the supposedly safe bet. he writes in part, this. i recognize the model for joe biden's unusual campaign, the former president who's pitched biden's most closely resystemables, george w. bush. i'm referring to bush's first presidential bid in 2000. bush's strategy and success arguably hinged less on selling himself as a new kind of republican than on being seen as a tested, trusted, traditional brand. biden is campaigning on his eight years as vice president. he's also campaigning on the nostalgia of his sir name, the familiarity of his presence and the comfort of his aura. and that's quint erblely is a republican move. biden is trying to get democrats to do something that republicans have more practice at. choose a nominee who's due over

one who's new. he's the liberal iteration of bob dole. the looser version of mitt romney. john mccain without lindsey graham glued to his side. he has part of -- he has his raft of the policy positions, many of them echos or adaptations of obama's, but they're not ha hwhat his suppor think of first. they're not what he thinks of first either. joe, i just wonder, is there something wrong with that? i mean, i'm not sure this is a criticism or is it one? >> well, i'll tell you what, mika, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that whatsoever. >> not that there's anything wrong with that. >> so long as he wins. >> exactly. >> if he loses, people will be writing about it for the next four years. let's bring in the chairman of priorities usa. guy, there have been moments where i talked mainly to democrats. a lot of democrat downers and grassroots people. and when i'm talking to them about joe biden and asking how your feeling about biden, how's the party feeling about biden,

how are the grassroots people feeling about biden, it sounds eerily like what i heard about bob dole in 1995. and i say to myself, uh-oh. so is frank bruni on to something? because after all, going with the safe bet didn't work for republicans with ford, dole, romney, mccain. so even though that's a republican shtick, it's not a winning approach. >> i think one of the things in the pry preer is he's an institutionalist where our faith nins institutions is declining the at the wants to make the institutions of government and washington work for middle class people and for the rest of merveg. and america. he has to do a more compelling job of how fixing those insurance tutions helps us build a more inclusive economy, how it

appeals to the issues that are most salient in the democratic primary. the worst thing you could call somebody in the democratic primary is a closet republican. i'm not sure most republicans would agree with that assessment of joe biden. but certainly he has some work to do in making sure that he's as forward-looking as possible. not just to deal with the fact that he's an institutionalist but to deal with what i consider unfair criticisms of his age as well. >> so, guy, help me out here. because we -- we hear all the time that americans want somebody that can bring both sides together. you look at most polls. and americans say they want to get things done. they want somebody like joe biden who can bring republicans and democrats together. or they like somebody on the republican side that can do the same. i'm wondering if they're just saying that to make the person who's conducting the focus group feel better about themselves or the polster to seem like they are actually not just retreating

into the tribalism. or have all of the people you've talked to and the swing voters, have you found that there actually is a market for somebody that can bring both sides together? >> i think most americans want a president that can bring both sides together to do all of the things that they agree with and none of the things that they disagree with. which typically is how most of us work. but i think this is a reflection more as a response to donald trump. the thing that we hear most often, whether it's in focus groups or talking to people around the country, is that they are uneasy, not just with policy, not just with ideology, but with the incoherent way that this president actually runs or pretends to be run the government of the most powerful country on the planet. what people are looking for is stability. they're looking for vision. they want to believe that every day doesn't bring a new wrath of

horror upon the country that. there's a plan to accomplish the things that they're setting out do. and, yes, they do want both parties to work together. but not just in absence of an agenda. and i think the important part of what democrats need to communicate is not just what they believe, but how they will get it done coming into january of 2021. >> so michael steele, we should point out that the hand wringing we're seeing among many democrats about joe bind comes about a candidate who of that debate in the clear average is up by 11, 12 points in this primary. >> yes. >> a hot can change. a lot changed of that debate. how much of this conversation is a reaction to his performance over those two hours on the stage in miami? >> i think that's a lot of it, willie. i think it is a reaction to that. i think it's always been bubbling beneath the surface. even before vice president biden got into the race. this sort of, you know, sense of, well, we want to push the future now. we want to push into the future

now with this set of candidates versus what biden would bring to the table as a traditionalist, if you will. but i want to push back on guy and joe just a little bit here in terms of the foregone, long- republicans and how this plays out. that works if you're talking about a conventional presidential race. if the republican opponent to joe biden is a conventional republican opponent. that's not the space we're in. we're in a very asymmetrical political space and everybody in this town and outside of this town are still playing a very conventional game against donald trump. which is why he kicks their butt every single day from politics to the media. so what, then, becomes the underlying strategy in an asymmetrical political game against an opponent who doesn't give a damn about convention and about the sanctity and purity of the process?

how do you put together and push forward a joe biden or a kamala harris or buttigieg? >> well, look, i think you have two things that are really important to understand. number one, we can't be chasing trump every time he says something stupid or otherwise we'd just be chasing trump on his terrain every day all day long. and number two, we need to make sure that we are actively pushing things that we think the american people care about, not just in a primary, but in a general election. my biggest concern about where we are today is democrats, is that there is so much focus, so much focus on the primary that we're letting trump get away with add advertising online, probably advertising on television by the spring, organizing on the ground in several states. we need democrats who aren't just paying attention to the primary, but are preparing the largest, most aggressive campaign. and, yes, michael, the most unconventional campaign against this president. >> switching gears to what's going to be a high-profile senate race, amy mcgrath had record fundraising to her

challenge to mitch mcconnell but yesterday voiced very different opinions about judge kavanaugh saying first in an interview that she saw nothing in his record that would disqualify him and then later on twitter offering an apology suggesting she would have voted no for his confirmation and saying she disappointed some of her supporters. it's the same idea. is this a moment where you could work with the other side, that you could work with republicans could hurt her chances or is that something you need to do in kentucky at the risk of alienating the sort of liberal energy that seems to be behind her according to that fundraising number? >> i think the most important thing that amy mcgrang can th cs just be amy mcgrath. you have people trying to calculate the most salient condition and the position that's going to appeal to the largest number of people, which

sounds great for a campaign. but if it's not authentic and not who you, it's going to backfire. i think she has an amazing story to tell. her service in the military compared to what mcconnell has been doing for theyears, which is single handedly destroy iing the united states senate and turning it into basically a playing ground sfr donald trump and his cronies. she just needs to be unapologetic about it and people will forgive difference if they feel like you're being authentic and have them at the core of the campaign. what they won't forgive is just thinking that a set of poll tested narratives is going to be successful. >> so can can a democrat win the state of kentucky being against judge kavanaugh? >> i think so. we have had cases before there's been these disagreements. there's no question it's a

challenge. but i still hope hope people want senators of principle. and it's support somebody like this, it's not a senate i would want to be in. >> dpies, thank you very much. still ahead -- >> go gators. nice gators tie. >> i noticed your tie looked orange and blue as well. >> still ahead, president trump originally planned to have nationwide immigration raids take place in june, but they were postponed. . now they have been rescheduled for this weekend. as we go to break, we have a first look at the new issue of "time" magazine. it's an interview with benjamin netanyahu. he will become the longest serving prime minister in the country's history and according

to "time", many israelis have been alarmed by his efforts to remain in power. they have an exclusive look at the rebuilding efforts taking place at notre dame. the man responsible for overseeing the iconic cathedral says the true extent of the damage will not be known until at least the end of the year. we're back in a moment with much more "morning joe." we're carvana, the company who invented

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in london for some time, it seems there are things that unite americans and brits and that is is even people who support donald trump often tell me they are just exhausted by him. exhausted by the tweets, exhausted by the inflammatory

rhetoric. you say the same is true for people in britain. but a tweet comes and just can't quit. >> i have had a nice couple weeks here with family here in europe. for the first time since 2016 i have not been grilled nonstop about donald trump. it's as if people got over their addiction. then this happens with the british ambassador. and you realize he completely has the capacity to yank everybody's attention back again. not just about american politics, but to insert himself into very sensitive british politics as well. disrupt the global order again, do things unprecedented and once again he dominates headlines. it's all anybody is talking about. he can still do that after two and a half years. there's this kind of growing realization here they be getting exhausted, but trump can still manipulate the news agenda. >> one day we will all figure

out in the news media that that is donald trump's strategy. stay in front of the cameras by becoming more and more outrageous by the day. it's like the census fight. he knows he cant win the census fight, but he wants to fight the supreme court. it's always about the fight. thank you so much. still ahead, labor secretary alex as costa is defending his role with jeffrey epstein a decade ago. but the former state attorney is pushing back saying the cause is is completely wrong. plus nancy pelosi appears to scold a group of progressive democrats. what she said to her caucus behind doors. >> this is going back and forth. and aoc suggesting it might be because they are women of color. it's fascinating. we'll be right back. going to capitol hill with kasie

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welcome back to "morning joe." it's thursday, july 11th. still with joe, willie and me. we have white house reporter for the associated press jonathan lamere. former chairman of the the narnl committee michael steele, and joining the conversation chief white house correspondent for "the new york times" peter baker. white house correspondent for pbs news hour, and nbc news capitol hill correspondent kasie hunt. >> no excuse not to have the lightning bolt. >> she's a mother to be. this is not appropriate. >> we have that out of the way. does anybody other than me know who fog hat is?

jonathan, let's do a little slow ride right into the next story. donald trump always has to seize the initiative. i just used the census as an example. he can't win that fight. but he's still fighting the battle so he can now take on the united states supreme court and thur enough you have breaking news that he's going to once again try to fete out front on that issue. >> slow ride, take it easy. the president just tweeted this afternoon he's hosting a social media summit chrks we knew which twitter and facebook were not invited, and he's foing to meet with some right wing groups. us this is a b unscheduled news conference. he's going to head to the beautiful rose garden. the forecast in washington is for thunderstorms. so outdoor news conference may be tough to hold. he's going to make a pitch for

the citizenship on the census. despite the resignations of teams in lawyers in charge of fighting this. there's a real sense this is -- despite what the attorney general said, this would be an uphill climb to win this. the court has already come down with a decision. whether or not for the legal action about this fight, at minimum, this is another moment the president commands the attention and sends the signals that this is what he wants. another matter where the fight is more important than the actual issue at home for the president and his allies. >> it's about the fight. and as we slow down and take a look at this presidency, we saw it during the campaign. we didn't recognize it as well back then. i give the example of marco rubio sgeting an endorsement

from nicki hailey. that's the day donald trump decides to atrack the pope. so controls the news lead inns of the taut. this is his game. he just wants his base to see him fighting all the time. and too often we in the press just follow along like suckers. put myself at the top of that list. >> we were just talking in the commercial break. the idea that donald trump, that president trump is this crusader for a question on the census is laughable. the idea that he even understands the census is laughable. the idea he's ever cared about the census is laughable. to your point, he's sending a signal to the people that support him. he's seconding a signal to republicans in congress he will fight for them the same wooay hs done for gel calls. i may not necessarily represent you and your values, i may not live the life, but i will fight for you.

so in something courts have top this idea, they did it again yesterday. he has an attorney general on the record saying the president might be able to take some executive action on this. so at 3:30 or 4:00 this afternoon in the rose garden, that may be what the president tries to do, even if it's futile, he's sending that signal he's fighting for it. >> just like when he said he didn't know who david duke was, just like charlottesville, just like calling all latinos breeders. we have the president everything he can to make sure that hispanics don't dpet cuttingeden opt the census. he knows he can't win that battle. but it sends a message to the lowest common denominator in his base and that's all he wants to do. >> he has i.c.e. raids starting sunday.

he does a lot of this to deflect. in new york it worked. you can have screaming headlines about some crazy thing he's done that might deflect from something that's really going on. in term os of the international media covering the presidency, the problem for president trump is we can cover it all. we can cover the i.c.e. raids. we can cover the census issue. we can cover the acosta story easily for a great time of time until we get the answers. we can cover the rush y probe. >> what about the children being used atd the border. >> we have a lot of air time and a lot of great reporters. and we can cover it all. and we will. the more he puts out this, the more we will cover. just weeks after a fight over an emergency border bill broke out within the democratic caucus, nancy pelosi issued morning to

members of her party. according to a senior democratic aid in the room, pelosi said, quote, you have a complaint? come talk to me about it. but don't tweet about our members. she added our diversity is our strength but our unity is our power. without that, we are playing completely into the hands of other people. one democratic peb in the room said her comments came across as a way a strong mother speaks to her arguing children. according to the "washington post," pelosi was clearly speaking to four liberal freshmen known as the squad. it includes congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez, elon omar, and presley. according toers and views with those, allies say they are

struggling with the moves to isolate them. pelosi has made half a dozen remarks dismissing the group on the environment and health care. alexandria ocasio-cortez says she wasn't sure what to do. she told the post, i do find it a little curious that leadership doesn't want us to try to have any sort of conversation about even messaging, but we're just freshmen, right? she told the post, the per sibt singling out it was town to point where it was fits respectful. singling out women of color, congresswoman presley told the paper thank god my mother gave me broad shoulders and a strong back. i'm worried about the signal it sends to people i speak to and who sent me here with a mandate and how it affects them. according to nbc news, one

democrat in the room yesterday said pelosi's remarks were aimed at alexandria ocasio-cortez's chief of staff, who attackeds pelosi and compared democrats to segregationists in a tweet over the weekend. he tweeted, they certainly seem hellen bent to do skblak brown people did to what was done in the '40s. the tweet was later deleted. there are some parallels to your experience in congress and newt gingri gingrich. >> all that is new is all that is old is new. . you could go back and look at things that were written about a group of us in 1995 and 1996 who were constantly after newt gingri

gingrich. we didn't like his negotiations with bill clinton and we were constantly complaining. and what it required, we department have twitter, but we had role call. we tell them things that would show up in the paper the next morning. and let me tell you something. having a big headline about unrest inside your caucus was far more frightening than a tweet. what it required, i give credit to this day, newt never took the attacks personally. we'd fight and he'd say, okay, let's figure that out and colt to a truce and that lasted for about four years. but it was managed in some time. and we had to do that because we didn't have a huge majority. kasie hunt, same thing here. it seems for a democratic party

that just barely gained control. if you look at the number of closed societies in virginia and skpra so and oh states. this is not a democratic caucus that can afford to be divided. i'm just wondering when does nancy pelosi, who i'll just say i love nancy. i have had great respect for her for years, but i will tell you that every time newt gingrich said something negative about us, we made sure we would hit pack as hard or even harder in the press and on the floor. so she sads some demeaning things to these four members. the four members have said many things to pelosi. when to they day sown and say we can all help're other. let's start working together. >> alexandria ocasio-cortez made

an interesting comment in an interview last week. she said a lot of this is premised on the idea that i have a relationship with nancy pelosi at all. she hasn't talked to her since the winter time. and i think that tellhouse a lot about how this rep has been mayed out. i think thr some risks here for pelosi. so far it's been this uneasy where they have watched some messaging victories. they have seen her stride out of the white house and have her be a hero for the same liberal base that sent them to washington. but these comments are getting very dismissive. pelosi simply looks at the world in a completely different way. and i think my question about this going forward is the same one that you had just then about newt gingrich, which is we're living in a different type of media environment and world.

pelosi told matt rein toud they have their politics. can you dismiss that public whatever in a way you used to be able to. nancy pelosi is a hard power person. she's counting votes. these are only four votes. that's not enough to change the calculous. she knows what it takes to actually get things done in the house. but the reality is politics has changed around us. just in the few short years this president has been in office. and the confidence that these people frankly don't have in the baitic funs functioning of the house of representatives means he's some real risks in push in them away so aggressively. >> she obviously has reason to be irritated. >> totally. >> to have people say what do you think about the

progressives, and she said i'm a progressive. ini have opinion a a progressive for time long. and she's right. she's opinion attacked for being too liberal. but she also had to be gulled by the that she tried to bring ooc in. put her on ab elect committee and aok refused. not a smart move. >> the other piece of this, too, in the runup to this emotional debate about this humanitarian border bill, she did work with the progress i-s. think had some tands and wanted some changes in the house version of the bill. so not the senate version. but the bill they wrote, that house democrats wrote. they had some things in there and made some changes. and they still voted against it.

and that is not how you handle yourself in the context of a larger caucus. so i think that is slal to what you're referencing. >> you moon "the washington post" article of yesterday said i have no regrets about anything. regrets are not what i do. but alexandria ocasio-cortez, the congresswoman from new york, explicitly accusing her that she singled out women of color. how important they mend this or does it matter in a big caucus? >> i think this matters in the optics of it. nancy pelosi, obviously, is a powerful woman who understands how to count votes and how to function in the washington she's dealing with. she's beginning going up against four wum of color.

so in some ways she has to be careful going after presley and because there are cants constituents that are going to get the turnout that could be demoralized by watching these four women be pointed out like that. i think the frustrating thing also with this with contracts is they have this bigger person thatten isn't being tub about. there's this unifying effect. the democrats need to be unified going to 2020 if that i want want to be an adversary that they got pab lash. they have shown themselves to be a unified party so i us i that overall democrats, it's an shl that corral democrats are going to have to deal with. i think it goes back to the optics. you haven b older one who understands how her caucus runs, but they are going up against

four women of color who are young who look like the democratic base. >> so go to joe here. you can take it to peter baker. but this public whatever that we put in quotes, the tweeting and everything that's happening with these four. i think it must be discounted. i think they have to learn that what is trending on twitter does not reflect reality. we have seen time and time again twitter take over the media landscape and create all sorts of headlines and sub headlines and online headlines that mean nothing when you actually go out into the real world and talk about what matters to people. you learn at a young age when you're in a public position that you can play the twitter game. but that's not the long game. that's day trading. and nancy pelosi seems to make a lot of sense. if there's nothing to be learned from her, you can go nuts on

twitter and say she's been racially insensitive. but i think she has a lot of experience to offer to these young freshmen and i really would be able the racial a accusations. >> i'm careful about the racial accusations. peter baker, i'm not trying to sound polly annish, but it sounds like poboth sides could learn. they know how to get things d e done. it's remarkable watching her. at the same time, not only the old way of doing politics. that's still the way you do politics. that's something i didn't understand until i left congress. you have to work inside of congress to actually pass bills. and it's hard and frustrating and it's not just a floor speech

or press conference. at the same time, i do have to say aoc and others are part of a new kind of politics where she's building her own basin dependent of the speaker, independent of a state or lel party or even a national party. aoc is building her own brand, as are other young members. so it seems to me these are our two sides that can learn ab awful lot. >> it's not in high demand, talking to each other. you're right. this younger cohort of democrats represents the energy of the party and for a party lead tore dismiss that out of hand, they to that at their own risk. at the same time, what nancy pelosi is worried about is not the seats held by democrats. they will be held by democrats. she's worried about katie hill

and these democrats who won red districts who are not necessarily going to win again snex year unless they are protected. those are the people that gave them the majority. they pushed the democrat over the top. that put nancy pelosi in the speaker's chair. she's not going to be speaker. that's what she's concerned about. >> what a great point. going back to the mistakes we made in '94. we thought everybody was right wing conservative and would say things and trot out every day another bill to bollish, another cabinet agency. while it helped me in florida, you have members in the pacific northwest that would be hurt by what we were doing. republicans holding on in illinois. and it took us actually going out and cam paping for them in 1998 to understand they were

always hanging on by their fingernails. i saw over the hast year, the slast seven months. somebody trying to send a message to those democrats. we're not going to get you out of work or chase -- we aren't going to go so far left that you're going to be left behind and have to vote for republicans next time. nancy is really doing a balancing act. so much of it has been signaling to moderates that this is not the democratic party of san francisco. this is the democratic party that is connected to heartland america as well. >> that's so right on point from nancy's perspective. she's looking at this from a broader point of view than

alexandria ocasio-cortez, who, yes, has a social media package. 4en.2 million followers. but it doesn't get you votes in the house. it doesn't necessarily also help those members who are in those red districts that could be lo. nancy pelosi appreciates ts truth of next year's political campaign. that donald trump is in a better position to win reelection than not. and the house cannot be put the steak. if that becomes the reality for americans in 2021 she wants the house to still be in democratic control. the other thing to keep in mind in this battle, let's not forget how this began. this began on the newly elected congresswoman decided to come here to protest to nancy pelosi's office before she became an actual member of the congress. so that relationship was fraught from the beginning. ien don't think she's forgotten

that. she wants to hold the house not just for aoc and others, but for all those other members much more difficult races than those progressive caucus. >> let's look at labor secretary alex acosta. he spoke to prumpb in the morning. was defensive and pointed his finger at state prosecutors in the case for which he's drawing a the lot of heat and refused to apologized, which a lot of people saw donald trump in that stance. he was defensive up there. was it enough to save his job? >> he wasn't going to skrins the kras who have been calling for his resignation. we were told yesterday that aids told the president that acosta

did well. they assured the president he gave a measured and reasoned explanation of his actions and did pretty well. he took questions. he wasn't afraid of taking questions. he stood up there for a full hour. and yet the president didn't respond to his aids. he hasn't yet responded on twitter publicly so he hasn't given us a hint of where he's going to come out. likes to see how it plays on and often takes his cues from that. so we don't know whether the secretary did not to keep his job president bush we're still waiting on the verdict from the oval office. >> like most people in president trump's office, he doesn't have a personal attachment to acosta. if it ratchets up as more comes

out, that president trump will get rid of him pretty quickly? >> i don't think he's attached in a way that makes him reluctant to do that. he doesn't like responding to the chattering class in washington or especially the democrats on the hill. he will dig in sometimes on that. particularly in areas of these fraught sexual offenses koind of case. . you have to get in on attacks on him because he has been accused of sexual misconduct with women, most wirecently a few weeks agoy a prominent writer who said he raped her back in a dressing room years ago. he digs in on these somethings. if he decides the secretary is causing more you believe than it's worth, he the president will have to continue to ask questions about his relationship with jeffrey epstein, then it

might be he decides to go. >> peter is right. this president is not going to want to see pressure from democrats when it comes to a possess neshl it is but acosta is not all that popular among conservative who is feel like he should have been doing more in that job. this is the key to this president's reelection chances to be able to talk about the economy, talk about the jobs he's creating and your secretary of labor plays a role in that if o'cass he becomes a liability, that's going to be very difficult for a kcosta to survi. at the end of the day, it's about what's best for this president and his political future. >> peter baker and kasie hunt, thank you both. still ahead on "morning

meeting." >> i will say this. it was a wonderful day for all americans. based on its tremendous success we're making the decision and i think we can say we have made the decision to do it again next year and maybe we can say for the foreseeable future. >> he's just a nut. listen to the people clapping. i'm sorry. i've been talking about ground noise and the signal. everything said about that fourth of july event, everything about that fourth of july event, ground noise. now he's going to bring it back next year and critics will be shocked and stunned and talk about it for another three days. >> but we'll cover other stories as well. >> i think it's probably more important covering foreign policy.

children at the border, the russia probe. >> i just thought people clapping, i love the people clapping in the audience. donald trump is is announcing, hey, we're going to have that horrible event again where i talk about george washington seizing the airports. who is in the aund yens audience applauding. >> maybe people in the room thought their jobs were on the line. >> you make a good point. this is another fight that donald trump likes to have. he has this event. >> there were ton of people there. but he may have bankrupt a fund in the city. we'll talk about that in a minute. put he gets his points to go so far in the other direction, he gets people to say this is like

the square. you had a couple behind him making his speech. >> he's happy to bait him into doing that. >> against people that actually on his side are saying, so you hate people who wave the flag? you know what? if he wants to have his little events, let him have the events and -- he's bankrupting the city, but again, he's putting critics in a position where they are criticize iing the flag ande blue angels and just don't go for the bait every statemetime. >> we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." johnson & johnson is a baby company.

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welcome back to "morning joe." two senior dhs officials tell nbc news that the the i.c.e. raids postponed are now scheduled to begin on sunday. they will target roughly 2,000 families in major cities across the united states. the same ten cities named under the previous plan including chicago, l.a., miami and new york. joining us now is a member of the armed services and homeland security committees congresswoman alyssa slotkin of michigan. southern border detention centers are shameful and should be managed with dignity. now the congresswoman is set to introduce new legislation to try to tackle the situation head on. welcome back to the show. great to talk to you. tell us about this legislation

and what kind of support does it have? >> it gets to the root of the problem. or wone of the roots of the problem. the homeland security act set up in 2002 called on customs and border protection to provide food and water to people coming over the border. this says, yes, food and water but shelter, hygiene, access to hygiene, showers, appropriate bathrooms. it expands the responsibilities in a way we have seen in the past couple weeks they haven't been doing appropriately. >> how do you get the accountability to address this and the support in congress to address this? it seems like there's an issue with transparency and obviously the president doesn't seem to have a lot of connection with what's going on inside those facilities. >> i think honestly in congress, whether you're a democrat or republican, i don't know many

people who look at the situation on the border and feel good about that. there's a strong feeling we have to provide for people coming over. so i'm not sure it will be a problem in the house or senate. the president has been reluctant to acknowledge what is going on, but the people certainly aren't reluctant. most of us went home last week. r for the holiday, most people i know of, members of congress heard a serious earful from democrats, republicans, independents about their outrage at what's going on at the border in our name. >> congresswoman, good to see you this morning. it's a shame that you you have to introduce legislation to ensure that children and families get bathrooms and showers and soap and basic hygiene, but here we are. what kind of support do you expect to get and what would be the opposition to that? >> like i said, i expect strong support. there's a bipartisan group of us going to the border on the 19th. there are republican who is

acknowledge very clearly that while we want border security and, let me be clear. you can have security and humanitarian treatment of people. what's going on right now is just not right. and i always remind people that in in 2014 we had a huge surge of people coming over the board er. so mostly boys 15 to 17. this is a manageable problem. at that time, we had to take emergency measures too. we had to open up military bases to get bed space for people, but this is a manageable problem if you acknowledge you have a problem. i think congress on both sides of the aisle have responsibility to send that signal because the people are send iing it. you hear it from people in the streets a the home. >> there seems to be in this long conversation we have been having about conflation between migrants, the people you're talking about, and undocumented people crossing the border illegally. how do you exmain that

distinction to people back home when they talk to you? >> i think the coverage is hard sometimes to sort of sort through. i think most american it is you ask them, do you think someone walking over the border legally who is telling a customs official i am scared for my life or child's life and i'm seeking asylum. do they have the right to get their case heard in court, most people would say yes. i think when you talk about crossing illegally, you go to a different area and say can't they go to a a port of try sbri. if you explain it's so crowded, people may feel desperate, they may understand more, but coming through a port of entry and the appropriate procedures, most people understand that. >> congress woman, i have been talking to some democratic officials who tell me they are worried that the party is going too far left in talking about things like decriminalizing

illegal entry into the united states. they feel that might be conflated as open borders. what do you make of the stances on decriminalizing illegal entry? do you fear your party is going too far left? >> i think this idea that democrats are for open borders is crazy. i worked at the cia sand the pentagon my sbar life. i worked on preserving the homeland my entire life. i'm a believer in border security and there's a bunch that feel strongly we have the right to protect our country and know who is coming over. so i think that the media likes to say we're for open borders, but we have to make sure we're reenforcing that we care about immigration reform. the system is broken and we care about security. that has to be a dual responsibility of security and humanitarian treatment. it's both. >> congresswoman of michigan introducing that new legislation, thank you for your time this morning. >> thank you. let's continue this conversation with documentary

film maker john carlos fry. he's a special correspondent for pbs news hour and author of "sand and blood." it's good to see you. congratulations on the book. let's talk about the book. the signal iing of i.c.e. raids coming on sunday. the conditions inside these detention centers. all appears from the outside to be a policy that it's on purpose. it's not an outcome of some accident. this is deterrence from the top. >> since 1994 when the policy was enacted, this is how we deal with the issue of migration. we build walls. we add border patrol agents instead of some form of immigration reform, we have a militaristic approach. this is all to send a message to

the countries to say don't even try this. we're going to rough you up so you don't think twice about it. and if anybody is thinking about coming back again, they are going it remember the experience they had in the united states. so it is like a border wall itself. roughing people up ask making sure they don't want to come back. >> what's the warks as you describe it. america's stealth war, who is fighting the war and how militarize d has it gotten? >> the united states is pointing weapons towards mexico or the border towards an enemy that isn't even armed. over 90% of the people who come up to the border are economic migrants or coming from some sort of political unrest. they are afraid for their lives. i have been reporting recently the effects of climate change in central america. people are going hungry because crops are failing. so the enemy isn't a true enemy,

yet we're arming ourselves at the birdier. razor wire, incarceration of immigrants, the united states is the largest jailer of immigrants in the world. every piece of war that we see in a theater of war we're starting to see now at the u.s./mexico border in addition to casualties. people are starting to die. it doesn't seem like anyone is responsible. >> the the militarization of the border that you're talking bt, a couple questions on that. did that start with the trump administration? >> absolutely not. that started with the reagan administration. we have been beating this drum for 30 years now. every administration since then has added a little piece. a little piece more. the clinton administration was the builder of the first border walls. then 9/11 we did border policy on steroids. we doubled border patrol. we added 700 miles of border fence. we quadrupled the budget. this is continued to escalate. so trump is just standing on the

backs of individuals who created policy for him to act this way. >> what led the reagan administration to start that stance? >> there was an influx of migration. there was economic depression in mexico. there was civil unrest. people started to look for jobs. and it became a political position to take. let me help you from the invaders. it became this political boom and they have been using the border as something to stand on ever since. >> michael steele has a question for you. >> i liked the approach with respect it the militarization calling it what it is. how do we now since we have 30 years in the tank here and all these externals that defined this space in terms of the um grags policy, how do we now change the thinking? is this something that begins to change from the images we see of

kids in kaejs where we can see what this approach does to the human beings or what else can be done now to sort of retrack this so we begin to get it right for future generations opposed to going further down the rabbit hole. >> it starts with rhetoric. how do we talk about these people? how does the president refer to immigrants coming across the border. they are an infestation and rapists and criminals. i spent some time in the caravans coming up at the end of last year. he referred to them as ms-13. he suggested they were terrorists. most of the people i met were hungry. so i think we have to refer to them as human beings. i always think if we treat the people coming across as our own, as u.s. citizens, i'm not say ing they are, but to treat them on an equal footing as human beings, policy would reflect that. >> how do we step back from where we are? this has been going on for

almost 40 years. how do we step back and have a humane border policy that keeps in place our legal process. >> i think it's up to the media. we're supposed to be telling these stories. we're not supposed to be perpetuating a false lie that children and their families are criminals. we're giving them a felony conviction when they cross the border. that gives us the opportunity to separate the kids from their parents. so why have we criminalized poverty? why have we criminalized people who are hungry? it's up to us to tell those stories. >> the book is "sand and blood." could not be more timely. it's out now. john carlos frye, thank you. pete buttigieg unveiled a new plan to improve the conditions and opportunities for african-americans in the united states on everything from health care to criminal justice reform.

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concerns specific to african-american voters, pete buttigieg has just released the details of his douglas plan, which will dismantle racist strushs and systems structures systems in the federal government. joining us more with now on the proposal, josh letterman. josh, what did you find out? this is a real issue for mayor pete. >> huge issue, mika. and the strategy that mayor pete is trying to employ to deal with this challenge with black voters is to show that he's not just throwing out generalities or making vague promises, but that he's really thought about this .has a comprehensive set of policies to deal with systemic racism. so his adviser have emphasized that even his rivals in the 2020 race who are doing much better with african-american voters such as joe biden don't have this comp hence identify a wide ranging plan that covers health care, criminal justice reform,

access to credit, all the issues across the board. but i think the question, mika, is whether voters are looking for that kind of specificity and wonky plans or whether they're looking for mere pete to connect viscerally on some of these issues and shows that he gets it in the way he struged to the with that shooting in south bend. >> yeah. i think you nailed the quandary for him. >> mayor pete is dealing still with this fallout of a white officer shooting an african-american man. how much do you think his response to that is going to matter comparison to this 18-page plan which people may or may not read? >> that is the million-dollar question. he had a lot of stubblebles, but he didn't seem to be able to connect emotional le to show that he really understood the disparities that had led to what

might have transpired there. he eventually, in that first democratic debate, did acknowledge that he had basically failed as mayor to address some of this by diversifying the police force and by enacting a body camera policy moment. that was a moment that seemed to help him with that issue. in the wake of that debate, we didn't see his poll numbers, particularly among african-americans, get much boost. so now they're trying to come at it again with this policy oriented approach. >> josh, thank you so much for your reporting. and mayor pete will be craig melvin's guest this morning at 11:00 eastern right here on msnbc. next on our show, amy klobuchar will be our guest. we'll be right back. y klobuchar will be our guest. we'll be right back. i can't tell you who i am or what i witnessed,

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an update to a story we told you about yesterday. "the washington post" reports that the trump organization has canceled a golf tournament that a miami area strip club manned to hold at the president's florida resort this weekend. in a statement, trump's company said the tournament was canceled after the beneficiary of the event dropped out early yesterday. the foundation, who not a registered charity in florida, provides mentoring, tutoring and basketball lessons to about 40 young people according to the foundation's director. the director told the post that he paid little attention to the event until the paper called him yesterday. he said he did not realize that his group's logo was being used in advertisements for the event which offered golfers a chance to pay for a dancer to serve as a caddie girl while they played.

still ahead, labor secretary alex acosta isn't offering any apologies for his role in a sweetheart deal for sex offender jeffrey epstein a decade ago. snet, he is pointing the finger at local prosecutors. r at local prosecutors ♪ that a speaker is just a speaker. ♪ or - that the journey can't be the destination. most people haven't driven a lincoln. discover the lincoln approach to craftsmanship at the lincoln summer invitation. right now, get 0% apr on all 2019 lincoln vehicles plus no payments for up to 90 days. only at your lincoln dealer.

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case had a difficult decision to make. she didn't make it alone. she made it in consultation with the fbi and in consultation with the office. >> you have no regrets? >> we believe that we proceeded appropriately. >> labor secretary alex acosta has no apologies for his action in a 2008 nonprosecution agreement with sex offenser jeffrey epstein, a deal that let the wealthy financier avoid a lengthy prison sentence and violated a law to notify victims. matt miller asked, i don't know why acosta doesn't say this in response to the victim question. i'm sorry, i tried to do my best for you. i'm sorry i wasn't able to get a better outcome. i wish i had and in hindsight, maybe i made the wrong decisions. i did the best i could, but you

deserved better. nope, no apologies. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, july 11th. in washington, former chairman of the republican national committee and now msnbc political analyst and host of the aptly named podcast the michael steele podcast, michael steele. and in london, caddie kay. not waking up early this morning there. >> before we launch into everything, what is the headline out of acosta's press conference? did he dig his hole that much deeper? >> acosta is the latest of example of a person who doesn't

apologize. this wasn't the fiery performance that we saw from now justice cavanaugh during his confirmation hearings, but there was some defiance here. what we have heard is the president was relatively pleased with how yesterday went. white house aides signaled that they thought he did well. people are still rallying around him on the republican side. but what will come into play here is how this plays out with the media over the next couple of days. what he wants to see now is how it's covered on cable and how it continues over the next few days. if this becomes a sorry, the labor secretary may have a you very tough time doing his job. >>. >> speaking of labor secretary alex acosta defending his role in cut ago sweetheart deal for

jeffrey epstein a decade ago, a 2008 nonprosecution agreement that let the wealthy financier avoid the possibility of a lengthy jail sentence and violated a law to notify victims, acovered to go a recent court ruling, critics say acosta's offer shielded others who may have been implicated in epstein's misconduction. so some would say this is a favor for a lot of different people. a person familiar with the matter tells nbc news that president trump spoke to accost yeah by phone on tuesday afternoon and urged him to hold a news conference to answer reporters questions about the case. acosta read an eight-minute statement and took questions for about 45 minutes in which he deflected the blame to local prosecutors. victims reluctant to be identified and the times they were in. >> facts are important and facts are being overlooked.

this matter started as a state matter. it was prosecuted initially by the state of florida and now by the state attorney's office. the palm beach he attorney aes office was ready to let epstein walk free, no jail time, nothing. prosecutors in my former office found this to be completely unacceptable and they became involved. without the work of our prosecutors, epstein would have gotten away with just that state charge. >> so secretary acosta pointing the beach at the palm beach attorney. in a statement, cristner said in part, federal prosecutors do not take a back seat to state prosecutors. that's not how the system works in the real world. the u.s. attorney's office produced a 53-page indictment that was abandon after secret negotiations between mr.

epstein's lawyers and mr. acosta. the state attorney's office was not a party on the those meetings or negotiations. and definitely had no part in the federal nonprosecution agreement and the unusual nonconfidentiality agreement that kept everything hidden from the victims. if mr. acosta was truly concerned with the state's case and felt he had to rescue the matter, he would have moved forward with the 53-page indictment that his own offered drafted. instead, he drafted a secret plea deal in violation of the crime victims rights acts. so that is the palm beach county attorney firing back at secretary acosta. >> so there's a lot to unpack here. in a moment, we're going on bring in former federal prosecutor plus more of jonathan lamere's reporting on how the deal came to be. but first, last night, chuck rosenberg had a strong fact

check off akochd ya. we want to play with you now some more of acosta's arguments interexperienced. >> the palm beach state attorney's office was ready to let epstein walk free, no jail time, nothing. >> if alex acosta thought that the case was not being properly handled by the state, he had the complete ability to bring charges federally. >> these cases are complex. especially when they involve children. scared and trauma advertised, refuse to go testify. >> they had more than 30 minor child victims in this case. even if a bunch of them didn't want to testify, and i completely understand that, some number would. >> question the terms of that ultimatum, what's called the nonprosecution agreement. >> if they didn't feel they had the quantum of proof they needed. they simply could have continued the investigation until they did. there was no sort of time stamp on this. there was no urgency to

negotiate a non-pros agreement. >> based on the evidence, there was value to getting a guilty plea. >> we don't normally, in fact, we don't routinely or almost ever end cases with a nonprosecution agreement. if we don't have a case, we simply don't bring it. >> or we would roll the dice and bring a federal indictment. >> there were thousands of prosecutors and cops and agents around the country making difficult sex crimes cases. the notion that we couldn't bring such a case all the way back in 2007 is deeply wrong and deeply dangerous and, by the way, deeply insulting to the men and women doing this kind of work. >> let's bring in former federal prosecutor elliott williams. he has served at deputy assistant attorney general in the u.s. court of justice. thanks for being on this morning. chuck rosenburg refuted pretty much everything acosta said in that news korns yesterday. how does this play out moving

forward, given now what the southern district of new york is doing? it seems like every points he's made can be undermined and at some point, does acosta get held accountable? >> i don't know if acosta gets held accountable. it seems the thing that gets you fired from this administration is disloyalty to the president or weakness and not misconduct. >> what about the law? >> he's not likely to face any personal liability for this. and let's talk about matt miller's tweet from a little earlier. even if he were to acknowledge wrongdoing or fault, he's not going to get sued for it as a prosecutor because prosecutors have a tremendous amount of discretion to decide whether to bring cases. and look, sometimes you just make a bad call. what he should have done is said i made a bad call. i exercised my discretion in a poor way and i'm profoundly sorry. but he didn't do that. so i think he takes a reputational hit for a while. but until the president decides that he's done with alex acosta,

alex acosta remains labor secretary. >> so let's answer mika's question about the accountability. will acosta be held accountable. i think other than the president of the united states, everybody that i've heard from, everybody that i read thought that acosta did an absolutely miserable performance. some white house aids telling reporters off the record that acosta hurt his chances of surviving. what politically was the take away of yesterday's press conference? >> i think that's close to where everyone settled here in town, joe. the idea that acosta did not go out there as a fire brand as we saw in the kavanaugh hearings part two where after the break, kavanaugh came back and really, you know, showed that he was going the fight for this argument on behalf of his appointment. and here, you didn't see acosta make the case to the president

why he should stay, which is to go, push back against the system, make the proper noise. so that did weaken his position inside the administration with the president. to the extent that this continues, to jonathan's reporting earlier, that if this continues to plead out, which it will, this story is not going to go away, it is not going to dissipate, there will only be more narrative to come from it, i suspect by the end of the summer, beginning of the fall, that bubble begins to have some hole in it for acosta with the president if he doesn't come back and forcefully assert his case the way the president would like to see it done. >> so what we're finding is as we peel back this sorry story, we're finding that not only acosta and the u.s. attorney's office failed, you also, of course, heard elliott's

criticism of what happened in palm beach and we're getting reports that the da's office in new york did not make epstein check in regularly, that the new york city police did not make him check in regularly. everybody was allowing this guy to get away with raping little girls, slapping him on the wrist and doing everything they could to play nice with jeffrey epstein. and the question is why. >> it's an incredibly painful story from the point of view of the victims. and the only legitimate apology that alex acosta could have

possibly made yesterday, the honest one would be to say i let a wealthy, powerful person get the better of our justice system. we are not all equal in the eyes of the law. this case suggests, if you're jeffrey epstein and you have clout and you can use your money and your power because you have potentially political influence, as well, then you can get away with this kind of thing. that was the only apology. we're talking about 2008, not the 1960s. this is simply a case of someone who is rich and powerful being able to get away with abhorrent behavior because he could use his political clout. still ahead, leaked diplomatic cables. caddie kay will weigh in on the implication of that and whether russia may have been involved. plus, senator and 2020

candidate amy klobuchar will have our guest this morning. but first, bill carin wes a check on the forecast. >> all eyes on the gulf coast, mika. yesterday was bad enough. this was the appetizer to our big storm on friday and saturday. new orleans had a thunderstorms which dropped 3 inches of rain in two hours. new orleans is like a bowl. we had a lot of flooding issues. again, we could do this again friday and saturday in the area but from a different type of flooding from storm surge. so here is our storm system, still only a disturbance. it's not even a depression yet. we don't have a well defined center of circulation, but the hurricane center thinks that will change later today becoming a tropical one storm and by saturday become ago category 1 hurricane with new orleans on that right side of the storm, which means the water would be piling up and that's why we're concerned with storm surge. so there's two concerns with this storm. one, i think the biggest threat to property and lives is the

flash flooding and flooding from all the heavy rain. we have flash flood watches from central louisiana and all through southern mississippi and alabama. these rainfall totals, it's pretty rare. we're looking at 10 inches plus in a huge area here. we have a high risk of flash flooding on saturday and the last time that they issued a high risk three days in advance was during harvey and florence, just to show you the seriousness of the flooding situation this upcoming weekend. and i mentioned this storm surge. anywhere between 4 to 6 feet, could be going up towards the mississippi river. because of new orleans, it's a bowl, this levee is about 20 feet. the river right now is at 16 feet. if we get four additional feet on top of that, smo of those levees could be overtopping. other concerns out there in the northeast and the ohio valley, we have thunderstorms rolling on through. areas like new york city and jersey city, which you see there, i had i would carry that umbrella. you're watching "morning joe."

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better, faster. i mean sign me up. comcast business. beyond fast. caddie kay, you're in london. i'm curious what the reaction is to the united states pressuring the british government to get rid of their ambassador, make him step down, and also very frightening, the hacked cables. it seems to me to be a threat not only to british ambassadors, but ambassadors across the globe. any idea who hacked darroch's cables? >> no. there has been a special inquiry launched around this, but at the moment, was it a foreign actor, was it some other state, was it somebody internally? was it somebody with a personal grudge against the ambassador to

washington? all of that is speculation at the moment. we don't know. we do know it caused a chill not just on british ambassadors, but american ambassadors who are expected to send back their candid opinions and are now thinking, wow, my cables could also be hacked. in terms of what this means for the relationship between the british government and washington, the view here is that the trump administration bullied britain and british officials, including boris johns job, didn't stand up for their own person and that is why kim darroch had to step down. it looks like we are in a position where britain is subservient to washington's way and donald trump, if he doesn't like somebody, can get away with this kind of behavior. and there's not much recourse that britain has when we were

desperate for some kind of a trade deal. it's bad precedence in terms of npsz for diplomates and it doesn't look good for the british or british-american leadership. >> the president called him out these things. how did this play out? >> the ambassador used to be pretty popular in the trump white house. west wing officials would frequently be guests. but as soon as these cables leaked, it changes on a dime. the with the was in a rage about it. that fuels anger and resentment domestically or on the world stage. and as soon as he started

signaling he would not be dealing with this ambassador, boris johnson said he would not provide his support to the ambassador. the white house then pushed him out and the resignation came thereafter. coming up, he's the liberal bob dole, the looser mitt romney and the supposedly safe bet who is owed a shot. that's how "new york times" columnist frank bruney describes one of the 2020 candidates. we'll tell you which one ahead in the must read opinion pages. d in the must read opinion pages johnson & johnson is a baby company. but we're also a company that controls hiv, fights cancer,

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is in his latest column for the "new york times" entitled joe biden, closet republican, frank bruney puts forth that former vice president biden is the liberal bob dole, the looser mitt romney, the supposedly safe bet who is owed a shot. he writes in part this, i recognize the model.

bush's strategy and success arguably hinged less on selling himself than on being seen as a tested trusted traditional brand. biden is campaigning on his eight years as president and is campaigning on the nostalgia of his surname. that is not just a tactic. biden is trying to get democrats to do something that republicans have more practice at. choose a nominee who is due over one who is new. he is the looser version of mitt romney. john mccain without lindsey graham glued to his side. he has part of -- he has his raft of policy positions, many of them echos or adaptations of obama's, but they're not what his supporters think of first.

they're not what he thinks of first, either. and joe, i just wonder, is there something wrong with that? i mean, i'm not sure this is a criticism or is it one? >> well, i'll tell you what, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that whatsoever. so long as he wins. if he loses, people will be writing about it for the next four years. guy cecil, there have been moments where i talk mainly to democrats. a lot of democratic donors and a lot of grassroots people. i talk to them about joe biden, how is the party feeling about biden? it sounds eereily like what i heard about bob dole in 1985. and i say to myself, uh-oh. is frank broonny on to something? going with the safe bet didn't work for republicans with ford,

dole, romney, mccain. so even though that is a republican schtick, it is not a winning approach. what are your thoughts? >> joe biden is an constitutionalist at a time where our faith in institutions is de-chinaing. he wants to make government work for middle class people and for the rest of america. and i think he has to do a more compelling job of talking about how fixing those institutions actually helps us build a more inclusive economy, how it appeals to the issues that are most salient in the democratic primary. the worst thing you can call somebody in the democratic primary is a closet republican. certainly he has some work to do in making sure that he's as fast looking at possible, not just to deal with the fact that he's an

institutionalist, but also to deal with what i would consider unfair criticisms of his age, as well. >> so help me out here. we hear all the time that americans want somebody who can bring both sides together. you look at american polls, americans say they want somebody like joe biden who can bring republicans and democrats together or somebody on the republican side that can do the same. i'm wondering if they're just saying that to make somebody else feel better, or with all the the team you've talked to and all the swing voters you've focused on, have you found that there actually is a market for somebody that can bring both sides together? >> well, i think most americans

want a president that can bring both sides together to do all the things they great with and none of the things they disagree with. but i think this is a reflection more of a response to donald trump. the things that we hear most often is that they are uneasy with the incoherent way that this president runs or pretends to run the government of the most powerful country on the planet. what people are looking for is stability. they want to believe that every day doesn't bring a new wrath of horror upon the country. that there is a plan set out to do the things that they want to do. they want both parties to work together, but not just in the absence of an agenda.

guy, thank you very much. coming up, amy klobuchar is standing by. she joins the conversation next on "morning joe." she joins the conversation next on "morning joe. wow!

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welcome back to "morning joe." joining us now, democratic candidate for president senator amy klobuchar of minnesota. great to have you back on the show. >> thanks, mika. >> want to talk about how it's going on the campaign trail, but first i want to ask you about labor secretary alex acosta and his response and lack of apology yesterday when he held a press conference throughout the whole jeffrey epstein sweetheart deal situation. i guess some might be worried

that if he's not held accountable, something really wrong could happen again. what could be done to hold him accountable and get the answers to the questions we need. >> i don't think he should be in that job any more. actually, he has jurisdiction over human trafficking. i didn't vote for him in the first place. that being said, people need to step back and look at what this is about. this is about little kids, little girls. the federal government has a lot of power in these kinds of cases. and he made a decision instead of pursue ago longer sentence, pushing this to trial, and by the way, there were a lot of victims. i'm sure some would have wanted to testify and he could have also -- they can subpoena victims to testify. i think he could have made a case. the other piece about this was the sentence. this guy, this billionaire was allowed to work and go to his job to make billions of dollars six days a week. i think it's outrageous. and i think there was a special

deal here and that's why you see so much concern in the justice department investigation going on. and this story yesterday that, hey, he had to take it away from the local d.a., i used to be a local d.a. and i am well aware of the long sentences that u.s. attorneys can get. we had one out of minnesota involving two girls just recently over 30-year sentence for sex trafficking. so this happens. and i just believe that something very wrong about why this deal was made. >> so, senator, you want to be president of the united states. chief law enforcement officer for this country. talk to people that see this story and see that the rich and the powerful live by a different standard because we could blame acosta and trump, but it's not just acosta. it wasn't just the u.s. attorney in the southern district of florida. it wasn't just the fact that

donald trump was running buddies with jeffrey epstein. you could say the same thing about new york. you could say the same thing about bill clinton being running buddies with him. you could say the same thing about we found out yesterday that the new york d.a. didn't require him to check in, the new york cops didn't require him to check in as a registered sex offender, that they actually went to court and tried to get the judge to downgrade him from a level three sex offender to a level one sex offender. the judge said i've never seen anything. so this is more than acosta. acosta should be held accountable. this is the entire system. how do you fix this? >> you have to go in, and i would do this as president, you have to believe that you're going to do your job without fear or favor. and you want to put an attorney general in that's going to do the same thing and u.s. attorneys where they go to work and say i don't care who calls me and who these people are connected to.

i'm going to treat these cases fairley. and believe me, in my former job, i had this happen quite a bit. we tried to put a judge in jail. we were successful. but in the meantime, tons of his friends called me and said, hey, he's not a bad guy. and i said, you know what? he stole hundreds of thousands of dollars from a disabled woman. i think he is a bad guy and i don't care that he was appointed by a democratic governor. these are the things you have to do all the time and it's a prosecutor or as a president. you have to make sure you're looking out for the people and having their back, regardless of how much money people have. and that is what really bothers me and so much other people about this story. >> senator, it's willie geist. good morning. >> hey, willie. >> i want to ask you about health care and there are some voters looking at this large field of democrats deciding which candidate to back or maybe whether to abandon president trump and to vote for one of you. and we're alarmed about some of the things they heard on the

debate stage about health care, namely some of the candidates would like to take away private health insurance and go with a government run single payor health care system. what is your position on the role of government and health care? >> i am not for that bill because i don't think we should kick off of america off of their health insurance. i believe that doctor's creed, do no harm. the affordable care act was a beginning and not an end. if you want a bold idea, a bold idea is to take on the pharmaceutical companies, something that didn't happen during the affordable care act. they actually kind of got a deal and moved on and are now charging increasing rates for things like insulin, simple drugs that americans rely on every single day. my idea? we push negotiations under medicare to bring those costs down. it will bring the cost down for the system. we allow for less expensive

drugs to come in from other countries to create competition. there are two lobbyists for every member of congress from the pharmaceutical industry. they think they own washington. they don't own me. so that's a bold idea. adding a public option so we brick down the cost of premiums and move to universal health care. it's taking what's good and building on it and creating a situation where we will move to universal health care, but not kicking people off their insurance in four years. >> so to boil it down for a voter who is watching, your idea is listen, there's government health insurance, if you feel like you need it, it's there, but we're not going to force you into it. >> that's right. and you can do it, by the way. you can have this public option, something that president obama wanted to do from the very beginning with medicaid is one way that we really didn't look at back then or you can do it with medicare. there's two good ideas out there and either of them have some

advantages. and i think that's what i would want to do as president. and the drugs from other countries, the safe drugs, i can order that as the president. you don't have to wait. >> and another topic you didn't get a crack at on the first night of the debate is would you offer health insurance, government tax funded health insurance to people that have come to this country illegally? all the candidates on the stage the second night raised their hand and said yes. would you offer health care to people who come to this country illegally? >> you know, the undocumented workers that are here are going to emergency rooms. they are getting health care one way or the other. so i think the california model they just passed makes some sense. but i think the best way to do this is as part of comprehensive immigration reform, willie. because until we get some order in this system when we know we have 12 million people here, the

people that are following the law would want to work, they should be allowed to work and have documentation to work and have a path to citizenship. part of that would be starting to earn these benefits and, of course, getting health care from the get-go. but right now, we have a mess. and if we did this, if you want to look at it economically, the forecast back in 2013 with that bipartisan bill, it would bring the deficit down by $158 billion. imagine the money we could use on things like border security, on helping those three countries down there so we don't see the chaos that we're seeing at the border. >> so that kind of reform comes down the road, senator, but for someone who steps across the border illegally, you believe they should be covered with taxpayer money right now? >> first of all, i think we have to have border security. i don't think we should have open boarders. let me make that clear. secondly, when someone is here and they have a health care need, yes, i think they should be able to access health care or we're going to have a public health crisis on our hands.

but the best way to get this done -- >> senator, can i interrupt for a second, senator? >> yes. >> you already correctly, which surprised me that no democrat on the debate stage said this, they already have access to health care. it is against the law for any medical provider, any hospital, any emergency room to not admit a patient in need. so if an undocumented worker, if an illegal immigrant comes across the border and has a hospital need, then they go to the emergency room and they have to be given health care now. correct? >> that is correct. yes. and so that is why i have that position. some of these other benefits, i think that would be part of earned citizenship. i don't think you should be automatically given those benefits. >> jonathan lamere. >> a question for you on the sentence. very briefly, do you believe the u.s. should ask citizenship on the census? >> no. the purpose of the census is to

find out how many people are here. and that question was thrown out over 70 years ago, as you know, and we now know why the administration is trying to put it on. it's for political reasons. we found that in the operative's papers after he died and it's very cheer and that's why i think you said justice roberts throwing it back to the district courts and saying you better come one a rationale that's real. now i guess you have the president looking for rationale behind every painting and under every sofa in the oval office, but the truth is, they don't have a rationale. they originally had the commerce secretary and the justice department saying we're going to go forward with this census. i know he says he's going to have another surprise for us this afternoon, but i am very hopeful that surprise had better be we're going to get the census out there and start because this is a constitutional duty. >> senator, i know you have to go, but on that issue, there's talk this afternoon that the president is going to suggest what his executive order is going to be. if he does issue executive order

about this matter, what happens next? >> i don't think that's right under the law. i think that the census is constitutional. i don't think the president should be doing an executive order. i think it's going to end up in court. and it's just another reason that i want to be president. and i was listening to your earlier discussion with guy cecil. i think it's very clear that we need someone who is not just making a bunch of promises that they can't keep, that we have someone that is our candidate that sees them as not just the ahead of the democratic national committee, but running for the president of the united states. when you look at my record, i have the ability to get this job done and as your previous discussion showed, that is what the people of this country want. >> very good. senator amy klobuchar, thank you very much for being on. come back soon. good luck. >> thanks, mika. up next, as the second set of democratic debates quickly approaches, we'll talk to one businessman turned governor who

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guess people but in real time saying, wait a second. undocumented workers, if they need healthcare in america, the law is they cannot be turned away and has been the law for quite sometime. they have to be admitted to emergency rooms. >> they do. it is one of the glaring aspects of our healthcare system that while people on one hand are saying, look. we want to do all this stuff for immigrants this is something already in place for a long, long time. you don't have to go to an extreme position here. i think amy sort of set out a more common sense approach. look, this is going to happen regardless. let's look at how we address the issue at the border so that we cut down on the folks who are coming here illegally, cut down on the stresses on the system by people accessing that system, sort of beneath it if you will who aren't necessarily recognized. i think she has a smarter

approach that people in the party should take a step back and look at because a lot of it is going to play out anyway. >> even conservatives need to understand it is so inefficient to give people healthcare in an emergency room. >> yes. >> there has to be a more holistic approach. she is right. it'll end up saving billions of dollars. now before this segment i asked our executive producer who we had in the last block and he said, lameer, lamont, steele, scarborough. it sounds like a good law firm. >> i like yours. >> if a friend of yours or you have been injured -- we'll do that later. the governor of connecticut, my good friend, i don't know if he'll admit he is my good friend, he has endorsed joe biden in the 2020 election. governor, thanks so much for being with us. great to see you. tell me why you endorsed joe biden. >> he is a good man. i've gotten to know him and i think given what is going on in

washington how about somebody we know and trust and know is going to fight for the middle class. f.d.r. said it well. nobody cares what you know until they know that you care. i think people know joe biden cares. they know who he is and he'll be standing up for them. >> you know, you've been identified certainly in your previous run for the united states senate as a progressive's progressive. joe biden is seen as a moderate shlths middle of the road sort of guy. are you comfortable with him? do you think he'll take the democratic party too far right? >> no. i think he'll get the job done. look, when i took on joe lieberman about the war in iraq i don't think it was a very liberal point of view. it was in keeping with our american foreign policy, not getting entangled in lousy wars. i think joe biden understands what we got to do. i think he knows our allies well. they feel comfortable with him. the middle class feels comfortable with him. he can win.

>> are workers -- our workers comp lawyer has a question for you. jonathan? >> actually one more question about joe biden first. he certainly entered the race as a front-runner. he had a few stumbles in recent weeks. we've seen the polls narrow. he is still ahead in most. do you think he has addressed some of the concerns about his candidacy so far in particular african-american voters, many of whom were upset with his praise for segregationist senators he said he worked with. do you feel that is the right approach, trying to work across the aisle with republicans, when so much of the democratic party is angry at this president and that may be out of step with a lot of the progressives who share your party right now? >> i think you want to get things done. no need to -- yeah. he does reach across the aisle and he was obama's guy in congress, there fighting for obama principles, democratic

principles, progressive principles, and he had to get some folks from across the aisle to get the job done. he's done that in civil rights his entire life and continues to move the ball forward. i think we want somebody who works with people and joe works with people. >> governor, this is michael steele here in d.c. just a question about joe biden and just broadly speaking, would is it fair to say that joe biden's position to the democrats right now is i'm not so much the future of the democratic party, not running to be the future of the party, but more the transition away from what we've had over the last four years? i want to transition america back to stronger footing on the international stage, back to stronger footing domestically here at home where we are more about helping each other as opposed to tearing each other down. how is he developing that message? that a fair message for him to put out there about how he sees himself as president? >> hey, michael. it's stronger footing. it is also taking america back to its core principles.

where we respect diversity, we look out for each other, we work for allies. we do try and work across the aisle. we keep moving in a progressive direction. i think that is just where we ought to be and i think that is what the american people are looking for. >> governor, going from a presidential race to what is happening in connecticut, you balance a budget. it wasn't easy. it was a strong fight. you did it without raising taxes. but, you know, i remember being at your inauguration and i heard a lot of republicans say a lot of great things about you talking about having a very big table, working with republicans, and i know you were working with republicans a good bit but at the end of the day not a single one of them voted for the budget. how discouraging is that to you as somebody that's really trying to break down the walls of partisanship? >> i'm going to keep trying, joe. look, i'm the first business guy in 25 years. we inherited a fiscal mess.

we balanced the budget. woo he got it done on time. we got it done on time. we did it without raising tax rates. we haven't done that in 25 years. i thought, perhaps, we'd get some bipartisan support. but the republicans -- i got to keep working on that. my door is open. we're much better when we have both people at the table. >> well, and you've got good relationships with the republicans, right? i mean, you have good personal relationships with the other side? >> i think i've got good relationships. there is something funny in the political waters, though. people come in your office. we talk. we negotiate. we laugh. we say we're going to get together afterwards. then they walk out the door, they get on -- see a tv camera, and things erupt. i'm going to keep trying. we'll have the door open and get the job done. connecticut is in a turn-around right now. move back. >> not only is it in the turn-around. it also is -- a second credit

agency upgraded your bond ratings. congratulations on that and on the balanced budget and come back very soon. >> you're great, joe. thank you very much. >> all right. governor ned lamont, thank you as well. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up our coverage right now. >> thanks so much. good morning. we start this morning with breaking news. president trump poised to announce that he will take executive action to add a citizenship question to the 2020 census, despite the fact that the supreme court rejected his administration's rationale for doing exactly that. let's go straight to the white house where kelly o'donnell stands by and justice correspondent pete williams also in d.c. kelly, what exactly do we know about the president's motives and what he is going to say? >> reporter: well, we have limited information about what this will look like. the officials here are saying it will be an executive action and not to conflate