>> i've seen -- yes, eve seen a visage of peter, paul and mary on a bank in virginia beach. >> you said something earlier, comedian david cross, which is true, this show is live. >> yes. >> and now it's over. >> so it's no longer live. >> now we're overdue. >> it got canceled? >> david cross, big fan of your work. appreciate you being here. >> always a pleasure, sir. >> david corn. that does it for us. "hardball" starts now. witness tampering? let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm steve kornacki in for chris matthews. we have breaking news tonight in the jeffrey epstein case involving possible efforts of witness tampering, and another major shake-up in the trump

white house. alex acosta is out as trump's labor secretary amid unrelenting criticism that the former federal prosecutor helped to cut a lenient plea deal in that sex crime case against jeffrey epstein. tonight in a new court filing, though, this is the breaking news, federal prosecutors are now accusing jeffrey epstein, who was arrested for allegedly trafficking underaged girls. they are accusing him now of witness tampering. prosecutors say that epstein wired $350,000 to two of his possible co-conspirators just days after the "miami herald" began publishing a series of articles about epstein's conduct and the circumstances surrounding that lenient nonprosecution agreement he cut with federal prosecutors. prosecutors write this, quote, epstein's efforts to influence witnesses continue to this day. as in the past, within recent months, he paid significant amounts of money to influence individuals who were close to him during the time period charged in this case and who might be witnesses against him at a trial.

government lawyers obtained bank documents showing that epstein wired one $000 to one individual two days after that "miami herald" story. two days later epstein wired another $250,000 to another alleged co-conspirator. this course of action and in particular its timing suggests the defendant was attempting to further influence co-conspirators who might provide information against him. revelation comes a day after epstein's lawyers argue that epstein was entitled to bail and request that he be released into home detention. for more i am joined by nbc correspondent tom winter. tom, i know you have been working the phones and trying to figure out exactly what is going on here. take us through here. two possible coconspirators within days of the "miami herald" writing this story that kicked all of this back into the news in the last year or so. they're saying prosecutors that epstein swung into action and cut some big checks. >> yeah, what's important about

this, how do we know they're possible co-conspirators? they're identified in the filing tonight, and they'veee bnt that jeffrey epstein was able to get as a result of alex acosta. he authorized that nonprosecution agreement. the two possible co-conspirators were identified within in there. and between the two of them, within five days of the "miami herald" articles coming out, they received $350,000. one received a $100,000 payment. the other got a $250,000 payment. what's interesting to me, within the filing tonight, prosecutors specifically talking about how these were one-off payments that did not occur at another time. so they say neither of these payments appears to be recurring or repeating during the approximately five years of bank records presently available to the government, that being the federal prosecutors. it tells me that they likely have suspicious activity reports from treasury identifying these payments, or at the very least the bank flagged these pay.

s. and it's just indicative of an overall trend they say goes back to when this case was first investigated by the palm beach police department that noticed several attempts to perhaps intimidate or coerce victims. they talk about payments back then. and then you have more recent activity. and here's why it's most important. this is in response to epstein's efforts or his attorney's efforts to get him a bail package. now prosecutors are saying whoa. the bad activity we've highlighted, the things we've charged, the things we are investigating back in '05, '06, '07, '08, that activity has not stopped we have suspicious activity happening with his alleged co-conspirators in the last seven months. it's damning to the juvenile when it's talked about at the bail hearing on monday. >> we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars coming from jeffrey epstein. we're also getting a better picture, a clearer picture of what he has financially. what do you know now? hundreds of millions of dollars we're talking about in terms of

net worth. hundreds of millions at his disposal. >> according to records from a banking institution that they've obtained, he has at least $500 million of assets and cash available to him on hand. in addition, they say he has made $10 million just in that specific institution on an annual basis, and that's the money he has coming in. that's income that he has coming in. he has income that is supplanting the money he is spending on the private jets, on the money he is spending to keep up his mansion here in new york, the $77 million mansion, his property in florida, his island in the u.s. virgin islands. it's not that he has money, he also has money coming in. this is the first time we've seen a detailed accounting of exactly how much money jeffrey epstein might have. and it's worth noting, it's only from one institution. it's likely he has other institutions that he has done banking with. we don't know about offshore accounts. obviously he's got the -- in the

u.s. virgin islands. whether or not he has other accounts. this raises questions. >> that money is a floor maybe, not necessarily the ceiling. >> perfectly put. >> could be more here. tom winter, thank you. great reporting there. i appreciate that. meanwhile, the other big news in washington today, alex acosta, donald trump's embattled labor secretary, has now resigned. acosta joined the president who teed up the announcement while on his way to marine one earlier today. >> i just want to let you know, this was him, not me because i'm with him. he was a -- he is a tremendous talent. he is a hispanic man. he went to harvard, a great student. and in so many ways i just hate what he's saying now because we're going to miss him. >> i do not think it is right and fair for this administration's labor department to have epstein as the focus either than the incredible economy that we have today. and so i called the president

this morning. i told him that i thought the right thing was to step aside. >> now just two days ago, acosta had tried to shore up his standing with the president by holding an hoyer-long news conference, but apparently it did little to quell the public criticism. >> there is no need at all as far as i'm concerned. i would have -- i watched. i thought alex did a great job. you know, you can always second guess people and say should have been tougher. they do it with me all the time. >> and nbc news is reporting that the president sought input from friends and allies on whether or not acosta should be fired or if he could weather the storm. for more, i'm joined by yamiche alcindor, white house correspondent at pbs news hour, danielle moodie-mills, siriusxm host. the president said of his soon to be former labor secretary, it was him, not me. you heard him in the clip saying

in my mind he did not have to resign. of course, the president could have refused the resignation, i suppose. behind the scenes, take us there behind the scenes. was a message delivered to acosta from somebody close to the president, somebody inside the administration that it was time to offer a resignation? >> this was an incredibly awkward moment at the end of an incredibly awkward week for secretary acosta. the president pushed acosta, and sources tell me he encouraged him to go before the cameras, to make a public case to try to defend himself to keep his job. it was essentially a tryout to say if you can go before the cameras and i like what i'll see, i'll keep you. sort of like the "the apprentice." instead, the president looked at that didn't watch it live. essentially, acosta didn't do a great job. as a result, the president essentially walked him out there and really was this was in some ways a walk of shame for the secretary of labor. what we saw was the president, while he was praising him essentially saying this guy is going to be leaving. he has to go.

they're trying to say and white house sources have been telling me this was all about acosta. it was completely his idea. but essentially, the president said yes, i agree with you, you should resign. and this is really the president trying to put space between him and jeffrey epstein. but of course, as tom said, there are these new charges about epstein witness tampering. there are probably going to be more charges coming. and president trump was a very close friend of epstein. with acosta out, this is something that president trump is going to continue to be asked about. >> john, that seems to be the key here. the president, if you accept their version of events here, and acosta got the idea himself, called up the president and i want to resign, the president could have said no, you don't need to, i refuse the resignation. at the very least he didn't put up much of a fight. politically there was no tenable way to go forward with acosta in that position? >> it would have been stupid for him to argue that acosta should stay, like the obviously clean break is a way to distance

himself from the story and to make sure the administration isn't asked daily about why isn't acosta resigning yet. >> is there anything acosta realistically could have done or said in? anything that might change what your describing? >> once the "miami herald" published the story about the deal that acosta struck with epstein in 2008, any resurfacing of the story in which the story became active, which is what happened this week when the southern district from new york indicted him was going to mean that acosta had to go. there is no -- he gave a credible summary of his case the other day at his press conference that he was trying to make sure that epstein didn't get off scot-free. didn't strike a lot of people as all that credible, but it was

the best possible argument he could make, and i didn't resolve anything. >> danielle, just in terms of the politics here, politically from the president's vantage point was to politically create some distance as this epstein story plays out. did he achieve that? does it create any new space? >> no, there is no space to be created. the president tried to do that when he said i haven't spoken to jeffrey epstein in 15 years. we had a falling out. but the reality is look, epstein is doing exactly what the president did before he became president of the united states, tampering with witness, paying them off. does that sound familiar? it's out of the trump playbook. and so the more that we dig into this sex trafficking, this child abuse scandal, the more that we're going to recognize how many more recognizable names are involved in this. he did not start this ring just for himself, right. there are many other men that participated in this. and the idea that the president of the united states in the

1990s was at a party just him and jeffrey epstein and about a dozen women, some of whom i'm sure were underaged is really problematic. i don't think there is any room that is going to be made between him, between epstein and the president of the united states just because the secretary of labor resigns. and more than that, this comes a couple of weeks after the bombshell report on the president. so it's one sex scandal after another. i don't think this goes anywhere any time soon. >> i have to disagree with you, not because i want to defend trump's mafr in any way, shape or form, but we know in 2016, the entire country heard the "access hollywood" tape, and he got elected president a month after or four weeks after. so the idea that more sex scandals are going to level him unless there is some credible case to be made that we don't know of that he participated in

something really horrendous with an underaged person, this is now all been filed. this is -- i wish it weren't the case. >> right. >> but it is. >> i think that the reality is that this isn't just another sex scandal. this is actually involving children between the ages of 13 and 16. and i think that we do -- i think that we do it a disservice to say. these are the people -- remember growing up and your parents used to say be careful who you hang around. when you lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas. the president right now is in need of serious ointment. everybody around him has been involved in some way in some hideous scenario, whether it is domestic violence and now it's child abuse and sex trafficking. >> everyone? i wouldn't say everyone. >> enough people for it to be a story. >> sex scandals and pedophiliaic

and ephoebic people have a strat etiology and a methodology. and until we have any reason that that is a taste of trump's, you are stretching the boundaries of what is acceptable. >> i think if we can reset it, though, to where we started here, just on the basic question here, from the administration's standpoint, trying to change the subject, trying to create some distance here, i think there is that open question politically that the 2016 campaign has put out there on this issue and on so many other issues. how much was out there in the 2016 campaign that would have killed off politically any other candidate. it raises the question where the divisions that were set in place in that 2016 campaign locked in place. did they live with us throughout this presidency? that's one of the questions the next election is going to tell us. also, there is epstein's arrest. it has renewed focus on his relationship with president trump. as we're talking about here, some context to "the new york times." the two had a years' long

friendship with trump famously telling the "new york" magazine that epstein was a terrific guy at one point. the president said years later they did have that falling out. >> why did you have a falling out with jeffrey epstein and did you ban him from mar-a-lago? >> yes. and i did have a falling out a long time ago. the reason doesn't make any difference, frankly, but i haven't spoken to him in probably 15 years or more. i didn't want anything to do with him that was many, many years ago. it shows you one thing, that i have good taste. >> yamiche, let me bring you back in there in terms of your reporting, what you're hearing at the white house. what do they tell you about that trump/epstein relationship? what do they tell you about their expectations as the legal drama with epstein now plays out? >> i should say white house aides really have been very reluctant to talk about this story and talk about the president's relationship with epstein. what we do know is there is obviously this public information which is at one point president trump was saying that jeffrey epstein was a good guy. he did like women on the younger

ages, but that he -- but that they were close friends. now you see the president is saying that there was some sort of falling out, but he wouldn't go into detail. i think those details might be critical. it's really critical to find out what did president trump actually know? if in fact he is in some way -- we come to find out that he knew a little bit more about what jeffrey epstein was up to, he maybe knew the ages of these women and didn't alert authorities. that might be politically and criminally damaging to the president, but i will say that also, i've talked to a lot of trump supporters, and a lot of women trump supporters. the one thing that they seem to always have a soft spot for is children and this idea that even immigrant children who are being separated from their families, when you have people that havei when they think about children being mistreated, they start to question the president. so i think when we start seeing here whether or not the president knew about whether or not 14-year-old children were being abused by jeffrey epstein, that might open up into a different kind of problem that president trump hasn't quite had

to deal with in the past. >> just to be clear, and i think i heard you sate, but just to make sure i heard you correctly, you're saying in terms of talking to the folks at the white house, they're just not giving you any indication of what this falling was about? >> exactly. they're not -- they're not at all saying anything about what this falling out was about. the president obviously was troubled enough that he banned him from mar-a-lago and told him he didn't want to be around him after years of hanging out with him. well just have to figure out what those details are and why they actually fell out. obviously it had to be something very serious for him to go from hanging out with him and having private parties with him to banning him from his private golf course. >> all right. yamiche alcindor, danielle moodie-mills, john podhoretz, thank you all for being with us. coming up, robert mueller's congressional testimony. he is scheduled for next wednesday. well, now suddenly it might not happen, at least not next week. we'll tell you what the holdup may be all about. and bran new poll numbers from the key early state of south carolina. we showed you national numbers yesterday. now we're showing you the first

big state with a large african american voting bloc. new numbers to tell you about there. plus, presidential retreat. trump backing down on the census. part of a growing pattern of bold talk followed by little or no action. and here is something you don't see every day. >> and i'll tell you something about nancy pelosi. that you know better than i do. she is not a racist, okay. she is not a racist. for them to call her a racist is a disgrace. >> there is the president defending the democratic speaker of the house while also trashing her republican predecessor. much more ahead. stay with us. oh! oh! oh! ♪ ozempic®! ♪ (announcer) people with type 2 diabetes are excited about the potential of once-weekly ozempic®. in a study with ozempic®, a majority of adults lowered their blood sugar and reached an a1c of less than 7 and maintained it. oh! under 7? (announcer) and you may lose weight. in the same one-year study, adults lost on average up to 12 pounds. oh! up to 12 pounds? (announcer) a two-year study showed that ozempic® does not

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we like drip coffee, layovers- -and waiting on hold. what we don't like is relying on fancy technology for help. snail mail! we were invited to a y2k party... uh, didn't that happen, like, 20 years ago? oh, look, karolyn, we've got a mathematician on our hands! check it out! now you can schedule a callback or reschedule an appointment, even on nights and weekends. today's xfinity service. simple. easy. awesome. i'd rather not. welcome back to "hardball." despite robert mueller's agreement over three weeks ago to testify before the house judiciary and intelligence committees, the date of his testimony is now up in the air. nbc news is reporting that the

mueller hearings that were slated for next wednesday may now be delayed until july 24th, though the negotiations remain fluid. according to politico, lawmakers have been seeking, quote, more time to question the former special counsel, yet the possible new date is just one day before lawmakers are scheduled to depart for a month-long summer recess leaving little time for impeachment advocates to seize on my momentum. "the washington post" is also reporting late tonight that it was mueller who proposed the new date to give lawmakers more time. the latest poll shows that 59% of americans now say congress should not begin impeachment proceedings. only 37% say they should. all of this comes after the house judiciary committee authorized 12 new subpoenas yesterday for big-name witnesses including jared kushner, michael flynn, and jeff sessions. however, the administration has already proven they will block or limit witness testimony at many turns. i'm joined now by a member of one of the committees that was

scheduled, may still be scheduled to interview the former special counsel, congress steve cohn of tennessee, a the committee. and carolyn flection is author of "the democracy fix." carolyn testified today before the house judiciary committee in addressing presidential misconduct. thank you both for joining us. congressman, let me start with you and see if we can get some news out you have. when is robert mueller going to testify before your committee? >> well, that's still being negotiated by the committee and committee counsel. so we don't really know. but i suspect he will testify i would get the 24th, but that's all up in the air. >> is this reporting from "the washington post" correct that it was mueller who came to the committee and said perhaps a delay would be in order here? he was the one who suggested this? >> i don't know that for a fact. i just know that they had negotiation, and part of it was to have more time for the

judiciary committee so that we could operate as we normally do with every member having an opportunity to participate in questions which republicans as well as the democrats sought. and i think that was fair. originally it was based on the intelligence committee wanting two hours, which covered five minutes for all of their members, but didn't take any consideration the judiciary, and it might have just fallen through the cracks. >> right. originally this looked like it would be two hours for each committee that would be for next week if it goes as schedule. if it goes, say, a week later, how much time you have? >> i don't know. that's being negotiated. i would hope it would be enough, at least three hours, maybe four. but it's up to mr. mueller and his folks and the committee. >> okay. carolyn fredriksson, let me ask you about the expectations for this. we've seen and we've heard from robert mueller in public for the past two and a half years basically at that press conference now a couple of months ago, i say press conference. he didn't take questions. talked for about ten minutes.

i think the impression he left on everybody measured very precise what he was willing to say and what he was not willing to say. whether it's two hours in front of these committees, or whether it's a more expansive questioning, is there any reason to believe he is going to be any more expansive in what he is willing to say publicly? >> well, i doubt that very much. there are simply reading from his own report in his own voice i think would be incredibly forceful for the american public. we all have to be honest. few people have read the report. not many people have read the summaries that were released. but there is incredible content in there. very disturbing findings about misconduct by the president and by his campaign and his associates. that having mr. mueller with the reputation that he has, with his measured delivery, with his history of public service, his

military service, just telling people what happened, i think will have an enormous impact on how much people understand about what has really occurred. >> congressman, let me ask you about that, because we put the poll number up there. this from a couple of days ago, the "washington post"/abc poll, 37% say impeachment, go ahead. 59% of americans say no, don't do impeachment. if you hear from robert mueller and those numbers don't change, is that the end of it in terms of the push for impeachment? >> no, not at all. you know, when they started looking at nixon, it was about 19% were for impeachment. mueller be very important in his words and to affirm and to remind the american people that what was in that report is that there are over 100 contacts with the russians and the trump campaign did not refuse them. they sought them. they called for them. and that there were many instances of obstruction of

justice, and that mueller could not say the president didn't violate the law. and he said the only reason he didn't indict him, or one of the reasons if it's the only reason is because of the office of legal counsel's determination that they couldn't legally indict a president. otherwise he would have been indicted. and would have been like individual one in new york and michael cohen would have been up the river in new york. we need the direct evidence. the people we subpoenaed, the folks that paid off stormy daniels and helped do that and bought the story of miss august. the people who were asked to get mueller to resign, to ask sessions to unrecuse himself, to ask mcgahn to put out a false paper trail and to lie about the president, asking him to fire mueller. those are obstruction of justice charges. >> i think what i'm getting at the is this, though. between the polling we put up at 37/59. i've heard you and other democrats make that case.

here we sit now well into july, and those are the numbers on impeachment. you've got mueller potentially appearing, let's say maybe it's the 24th. as soon as he finishes, then congress is supposed to go on a recess, basically until the end of the summer. so you're laying out all these other things you need. between the poll numbers that show the public is not there right now, that looming recess that is going take you to labor day, the clock running out here? >> steve, it possible for me to jump in here? because i think we're sort of missing the bigger picture. impeachment is obviously something that congress could be considering. but there is so much more at stake. and i was thinking about during your last section where mr. podhoretz mentioned the "access hollywood" tapes and how that didn't affect the election. well, i'd also, if i recall, remember that that was the very day that wikileaks dumped all of the emails that had been hacked by the russians from hillary

clinton and the democratic party. so, you know, we have to be concerned about our elections and the integrity of our elections, and congress needs to get to the bottom of that. whether it leads to impeachment or not, we still need to understand how to protect our elections. >> if you guys are going on recess for the rest of the summer, you just went through a whole list of people you want to hear from. does that run the clock out? >> well, first of all, they're subpoenas, and that's going start a court process. i don't expect that the trump team will not try to stop each and every one of these people, even corey lewandowski, who was not a part of the administration and find every way to stop us. and so i don't think it will happen soon. but the committee has talked about meeting in august, having hearings in august, and continuing our work in august. we're not going to stop because of the recess. we're going to continue to try to pursue the truth on behalf of the american people. that's our duty as the judiciary under article i. >> steve cohn from tennessee,

caroline frederickson. the biggest revelations on the mueller report, 9:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. up next, going to head over the big board. we're going dig into new poll numbers. they go iowa, new hampshire, nevada, and south carolina. first in the south, first state to do with a giant black population. 60% of the voters in the south carolina primary will be african american. is joe biden still number one there after his recent controversies? find out next on "hardball." on ! our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy! whoo-hoo! great-tasting ensure. with nine grams of protein and twenty-six vitamins and minerals. ensure, for strength and energy.

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welcome back to "hardball." yesterday at this time we were showing you our new numbers, national numbers in the democratic presidential race from our nbc news poll, our first poll after the democratic debate. joe biden in first place, but elizabeth warren not that far behind him, only seven points behind him. a question we've been asking coming out of that first democratic debate, how much damage was there to biden, and in particular, how much damage to biden was there among black voters? because remember, the controversy there on the debate and in the days after, it was the showdown he had with kamala harris. it was the issue of bussing. it was racial politics. what about black voters in particular. there is also a new poll, in addition to our national poll. our friends at fox news have a new poll from south carolina. first in the south, state with a big black population, certainly

the democratic side. and here you go, look at this. overall, in south carolina, there is joe biden, out in front, 35%. this looks better than numbers we've seen for him in new hampshire and iowa laterally. 35% for biden in south carolina. sanders in second place. kamala harris back in third place here. let's take a look, though, at the racial split in south carolina. first of all, among white voters in the democratic primary, there is biden, in first place. more than 60% of the democratic electorate in south carolina is going to be african american in the primary next year. and among black voters in south carolina, here it is. look that joe biden in first place still, 41%. bernie sanders actually running in second. kamala harris down at third place here at 12%. this is a big dynamic to keep an eye on in the weeks and months to come. south carolina right now is shaping up as joe biden's strongest of the early states. and the reason it's the strongest for biden of the early

states is because of the support he has from african american voters in south carolina right now. we also showed him running strong nationally with african american voters. does that last for him? or is kamala harris able to surge there? that's something to keep an eye on. we mentioned this in iowa in 2016, 91% of the caucus for democrats was white. in new hampshire, 93% of the primary electorate was white. in nevada, large hispanic population here you. get to south carolina, 61% african american electorate. that's the first big test for democratic candidates next year where african american voters are clearly going to be decisive. it's 61% in south carolina. and remember, if you add up all the primaries across the country, one out of four votes cast next year in the democratic primaries are going to come from african american voters. so south carolina looms large. as a state, individually, and as a barometer potentially of what's to come. biden leaving with african american voters in south carolina right now. does it last? let's see.

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today i'm here to say we are not backing down on our effort to determine the citizenship status of the united states population. i stand before you to outline new steps my administration is taking to ensure that citizenship is counted so that we know how many citizens we have in the united states. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was president trump yesterday claiming he was not backing down on his demand to add that citizenship question to the 2020 census when in fact he is giving up on that idea. the president pulled the plug on the effort just nine days after he declared in a pair of tweets that he had asked the justice

and commerce departments to, quote, do whatever is necessary to bring this most vital of questions and this very important case to a successful conclusion. it's the latest in several examples of the president seeming to back down in recent weeks. at the end of may, he threatened to impose tariffs on mexico if that country couldn't stop the flow of migrants into the u.s. two days before the deadline he announce they'd were indefinitely suspended because a deal had been struck with mexico. however, "the new york times" reported the key points of the deal had been agreed on months before. and a few days later the president announced a nationwide immigration rates. >> immigration officials say they don't know anything about a planned roundup of millions of people. >> well that. >> know. they know. and they're going to start next week. the people that came into the country illegally are going to be removed from the country. everybody knows that. it starts during the course of this next week, maybe even a little earlier than that. >> a few hours after that statement, trump tweeted he had delayed the raids for two week, quote, to see if the democrats

and republicans can get together and work out a solution. there was also his authorization of air strikes to retaliate for iran's downing of a u.s. drone with trump calling them off at the last minute. in a pair of tweets, he acknowledged, quote, we were cocked and loaded to retaliate, adding that ten minutes before the strike, i stopped it. today the president offered a new explanation for this latest retreat on the census. that's next. you're watching "hardball." dbal. carrying flowers that signify why we want to end alzheimer's disease. but what if, one day, there was a white flower for alzheimer's first survivor? what if there were millions of them? join us for the alzheimer's association walk to end alzheimer's. register today at alz.org/walk. i went straight to ctca. after my mastectomy, i felt like part of my identity

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things like separate children from their families and hold them in those kinds of conditions it affects them. they're young. their brains are forming they're not going to be our friends when they get a little older, and especially the teenaged ones. they're aware isis and other groups of people who don't want to do us good are going to go to recruit. i mean, this is -- this is not god for the country. it just isn't good for the

country. and these conditions are appalling. >> tim, it does strike me we always try to figure out the politics of immigration. i think they're very complicated. people often have contradictory views within themselves. but the two moments i've noticed in the last year i'd say the revelation of the child separation policy, and then the description and now pictures of the conditions at these facilities those two seem to be moments there when you start to get a broad consensus out there among people that it does seem to cut across some of the familiar divides, and people seem to say this overall is not a good idea. >> overwhelmingly, when there is polls on immigration, there is a broad national consensus that immigration is good for the united states. that's not where the divide emerges. the divide emerges how do you handle immigration what's the right way to bring people into the country. this administration, however, is trying to score political points for its base it's not actually trying to develop a sophisticated policy

that does two things what governor whitman said which is address the economic distress and the drug wars in honduras, guatemala, in other parts of central america that are driving largely women and children to the border these aren't mexican laborers who came in the past it's a different population of people and then having a system at the border that actually welcomes them and makes decisions in a rational, constructive way about what their future is going to be that's not building a wall and that's not putting them inside jail, all right. tim o'brien, christine todd whitman, thank you both for joining us we'll be right back. if you live with diabetes,

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and that's going to do it for "hardball. for now, i'm steve kornacki. chris matthews will be back here on monday. thank you for joining us and "all in with chris hayes" starts right now tonight on "all in" -- >> you know what i know about alex he was a great student at harvard. he's hispanic, which i so admire >> a big loss for the president as yet another cabinet member resigns in disgrace. >> he is a hispanic man. he went to harvard, a great student. >> trump's labor secretary is out, thanks to a deal he cut with sex predator jeffrey epstein. >> i wasn't a big fan of jeffrey epstein, that i can tell you and now if you look at the remnants hurt this man >> tonight new scrutiny of all