good evening, and welcome to "politicsnation." tonight's lead, the president is a racist. that's it. no doubt in my mind. it's been demonstrated time and again, and after this morning's twitter screed, wading into the ongoing tactical feud between house speaker nancy pelosi and four freshmen women of congress with nothing to add but racism. there should be no doubt who president donald trump is speaking to and for. this morning, our president asked his base the following. "progressive democratic congresswomen who originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe, why don't they go back and help fix the

totally broken and crime-infested places from which they came? then come back and show us how it is done." in the last few hours, i've been asked for my take on these comments. no slight to my msnbc colleagues. but naturally, i saved my best heat for my show. this is the president that called african nations and haiti s-hole countries. this is the president who entered national politics by raising questions on the birthplace of the first african-american president of the united states. he has used racism, either coded or blatant, throughout his political career, but now he's come right out because i've heard those same calls of go back to where you come from as i've led marches and participated in rallies over the last several decades.

well, i am where i come from. i come from brooklyn. and, by the way, congresswoman al alexandria ocasio-cortez was born in new york city. tlaib was born in detroit. and pressley born in cincinnati. so come back where they come from, those are the cities and states they come from, and, mr. president, you don't want to talk about if their grandparents or great-grandparents came from elsewhere because you are second-generation person that came to this country from somewhere else. in fact, your in-laws are from somewhere else. so, clearly, you're not talking about people that have had forefathers and foremothers that were born somewhere else. you're talking about race and you're talking about it explicitly, blatantly, and in the most ugly manner as the president of the united states. let us not forget american has destabilized foreign governments

for its own interests and let us not forget that many of those countries are the victim of some of that intervention. joining me now, alexander hefner, host of "the open mind" on pbs and shermichael singleton, a republican political consultant. shermichael, you know, i, when the birther movement was going and donald trump became the face of it, i would say it was rac t racist, and i remember getting a call from michael cohen who was at that time president's lawyer and fixer saying he's upset you're calling him a racist. it led to a meeting, and i told him, no, i said what you say is racist, i'm being very careful not to call people racist. but now for last year or so, i've been very careful to be honest. this is blatant racism. he's a racist. whether he's comfortable with racism or not, it means the same thing. there's no other way i can say

that, you're a republican, i don't see how anyone could say this is not blatantly racist. >> rev, if there had been any other moment in particular, there are quite a few i think we could all cite that should mobilize people to turn out to vote. there's this notion of well, you know, i don't want to trust the polls because we trusted the polls in 2016 and he won, anyway. how many more examples do people need to indicate to them that the country is going in the wrong direction? donald trump has taken advantage of this infighting, interparty fighting within the democratic party. would say the democrats, cut this crap out. tlv there's not confidence on my side to get this right. the country is now reliant upon democrats to get this right. they cannot allow division what's in the best interest of the country, which is making sure that come 2020, 2021, that the country is going in a different direction. and my hope for my side is there's an opportunity for us to reset and correct course.

>> i think, alexander, that when you look at the fact congresswoman omar was on this show last night with me and she said there are some disagreements, but they're clearly not as disunified as has been projected in the democratic caucus. but nancy pelosi was one that came out very quickly today, herself condemning what the president has said. and i agree with shermichael. this may mobilize and energize a lot of people that may have wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, something i lost a little while ago. but that may have wanted to say, wait a minute, now we know what you really mean by make america great again. telling people go back where you come from. >> right. exactly. i think, amen to your sermon, first of all, to open the show. the reality here is that the speaker had to act promptly because she, in effect, alienated those four congresswomen. and whether she did so

intentionally or not, the quickness of her reaction today was necessary. this is really, rev, rebirth of a nation. what we're seeing with this president and this complicit republican senate. the refusal to acknowledge that the present trajectory is an immoral one. you know, this president is someone who has exploited a paranoid politics. you know, richard hofstotter talked about the paranoid style of american politics. let's be blatant like you said about this. this paranoia is peddling bigotry. explicit commendations of bigotry. it is predatory racism. that's m.o. predatory racism and bigotry that are enabling these attacks, and i'm pleased that you didn't repeat those heinous tweets because those tweets are, in

effect, the textbook definition of racism and there used to be in this country an acknowledgement to what dr. king said about judging people on the content of their character and those tweets did the exact opposite. they judged on the basis of skin color, on the basis of ethnicity and, of course, the faulty premise that these women are not american. these women are american patriots. >> well, that is the unsaid part of this which is why i raised how three of the four were born -- >> born right here. >> -- right here in the united states and it doesn't make the other one not -- >> exactly. >> -- un-american. who was elected by american citizens to represent them in the american congress. this is birtherism with steroids. but shermichael, i might add that for him to tweet this on the day that he's announced these i.c.e. raids -- >> the i.c.e. raids. >> -- on immigrants is to set a tone clearly that is race-based. when you look at the cities they've targeted or that he's announced and that he -- first

of all, i don't know how you announce a raid. i've never heard of that. but aside from the fact that there -- it's almost an oxymoron. >> right. >> aside from that, we are now seeing the president saying we're going to raid, and i'm telling people, members of congress, elected members of congress, go back to where you come from. >> well, this is what's interesting. you brought up, you know, dr. king's quote. i think for a lot of people of color, in particular, they will say they have felt for a long time and have known far long time that most of us were always judged by the color of our skin. >> right. >> versus the content. though i do respect dr. king's quote on that. but this is what i will say. there was an axios article that came out today that cited some data that showed that when you look at some of those key states and key congressional races that democrats won in places that donald trump beat hillary clinton in 2016, you look at some of the congresswomen that he targeted, they're not very popular. and what that tells me is that

what the president is trying to do politically speaking is trying to grow more angst and anxiety among some individuals in those particular places who did vote for democrats in 2018 but may say, well, i'm not really sure that i'm liking what i'm seeing. that's why, again, to my original point, democrats really have to be together on this, rev. i cannot urge them enough on this. what donald trump tweeted was despicable. it was foul. it was wrong. but when you look at this politically, and what he is trying to do, i would not underestimate what type of message and signal this sends to people who, again, voted for him in 2016, voted for democrats in 2018, who could come around and vote for him and republicans again in 2020. they got to be mindful of that. >> but, alexander, let's take that point and say he's doing it politically. isn't it also a political possible danger zone that he's going in because some that may

say, well, i disagree with what the democrats have done in congress since i voted for them in '18, but i am not going to turn into blatant racism and say, go back to where you come from. he may have gone too far if that was his political calculus because i don't see how you call this anything other than what it is. this is somebody standing on the sidelines screaming go back to where you come from. in writing. the president of the united states. >> right. it's saying these people are ineligible. >> exact -- >> ineligible receivers. it's morally -- as to your question about the political strategy here, i think that the american people see that the festering disunion, the afflicti affliction, that we are under today is trump induced. now, it's important, as shermichael says, that these congresswomen do not polarize the nation as a whole, but nancy pelosi's comments today, i don't

know if they were forceful enough. they certainly don't undo the damage, i think, of the comments to maureen dowd in that column. i don't know if it was intentional to rupture what was the appearance of a movement toward impeachment. but at the end of the day, the districts that shermichael identifies, whether they are the orange county districts in california or middle of the road districts in iowa, new mexico, here in new york, those districts increasingly favor impeachment and i think pelosi -- at a certain point is going to have to get real -- >> think that -- >> it's that it's not these four, the squad, who want impeachment. it's the nation who at some point is going to demand it and it's going to be ultimately politically effective. >> no arguing from me on that point, but when you look at her statement, nancy pelosi, let me put it up. she says in her actual tweet, "i reject donald trump's xenophobic

comments meant to divide our nation." so she very clearly is saying, wait a minute, we can debate in the democratic caucus impeachment, but this has nothing to do with him telling people go back to where you come from. and all -- she's not debating -- he's not debating impeachment. she's debating what he wrote on his tweet this morning. >> correct. >> which is a total different -- >> racial politics have been conflated in this because she didn't clarify that and that maureen dowd -- >> but she clarified it in her tweet. i think the president made that statement and that was his -- he didn't discuss impeachment in his tweets. >> correct. i think he did. i think nancy pelosi has oftentimes, and, you know, i don't agree with a lot of stuff, but i do think she's done a pretty great stuff. i think history will tell as speaker of the house and as leader of the democratic party and congress. i think what she sort of attempted to do, rev, was draw the line by saying, you know what, we have continuously come out against this guy when we

have found various statements to be appalling. and i think this may be the line too far, but, rev, if i can honestly think alloud here, i have to say this. we've seen these types of antics before from the president. we have. we've seen it with charlottesville, we saw it with president obama, and i just have to, honestly, ask why should people be convinced that some of these voters are going to say, well, you know, i'm all of a sudden offended? why weren't they offended before. >> i don't think -- i'm going to have to cut it off here. you will be back. but i think that what i'm saying, i was responding to alex zender talking about independent voters who went with trump and went democrat in '18. some of them are not, in my opinion, going to be swayed by this kind of blatant racism. we'll have more with alexander and shermichael later in the show. coming up, we'll have more on the deportation raids by i.c.e.

and we'll talk about some horrific events going on at the border. be right back. we're oscar mayer deli fresh and you may know us from...

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it's just another way we're working to make your life simple, easy, awesome. go to xfinity.com/moving to get started. deportation raids by immigration and customs enforcement are currently under way across the country. the agency says its priority is to pursue undocumented criminals in nearly a dozen large u.s. cities. however, nonviolent migrants will likely get caught up as well. now, even u.s. citizens are carrying passports on their person for fear of being mistakenly detained by i.c.e. new york city mayor bill de blasio tweeted about reports of unsuccessful raids yesterday in the harlem and sunset park neighborhoods. he also encouraged new yorkers in this time to learn their rights. and earlier, congressman gregory

meeks of queens discussed how he's advising his constituents to handle potential situations. >> we're trying to do is inform them what their rights are. not to let anyone in unless they have a warrant that's been issued by a judge. and ask to see that warrant. have them slide it under the door. don't open that door. don't lie to them. >> joining me to discuss, elliot williams, a former assistant director at i.c.e. and former assistant deputy attorney general at the doj. and erica andiola, chief advocacy for riezez, the refugee and immigrant center for education and legal services. let me go to you, erica, first. the danger of this raid that has been announced and that had been targeted in these cities is what to people around the country as you see it, and the danger to those that are here, many of

whom have been law-abiding, t tax-paying, contributors to the american government and people of this country. >> yeah, what has happened recently is that there has been an announcement of a raid meaning that there is a public strategy to get people to be scared, to get people to go into panic mode. i can say that raids have been happening for many, many, many years, that they have been done in the most terrible ways and they actually right now happen every day as well, even without an announcement from the administration. and so what i can say is right now, the reason why this announcement was made was, one, to create panic in the community, not just for undocumented folks but also for families who are in mixed-status families, who are really i trade afraid of parents, siblings, mothers, brothers, fathers, to

be taken away from them. it's really just for me, it's terrifying and also really, really sad to see. people in my community, my own family being afraid of the ra s raids, though that happened every day, it's sad to see the president is using tactics to terrorize our communities. >> elliot, let me ask you this. when we look at the cages that people are being held at the border and we look at how they were packed. if there were thousands of people that they raided or put in, where are they going to put them? are they going to fly them in the i.c.e. planes to guantanamo bay? i mean, is this just donald trump trying to play and energize his base? because logistically and practically, how do you, in fact, hold and contain these people if you were to do it, aside from the fact that given their rights, they do not have to engage in any conversation,

open a door, at all. they do have rights in this country. >> want to piggyback on virtually everything erika just said. the goal here isn't thinking about the logistics or the mechanics of actual succeeding in law enforcement, the goal here is frightening people and that has been the administration's goal, frankly, from the president's first days as a presidential candidate when he was talking about mexicans being rapists and on and on and on. virtually every major policy priority of the administration has been targeted toward restricting legal immigration and driving immigrants into fear. so they started with a travel ban that largely directed at muslims on the earliest days of the administration. their biggest infrastructure priority has been building a wall that's, frankly, unnecessary and once again making people not feel welcome. it's also just unnecessary as a matter of policy and governing. as we've seen over the last week, this whole flap over the census has revolved around trying to drive people into the shadows and restrict their power

as -- >> the citizenship question. >> yes, the citizenship question, sorry, i should have been more clear. so it all gets back to immigration and sort of nativi m nativism. this is just the -- so when the president tweeted, we're going to remove millions and millions of people, there simply is no way to apprehend and remove millions and millions of people from the -- even if -- and let's set aside whether it's the right policy, which it's not, but even if you wanted to, you couldn't. the government doesn't have that kind of capacity. so all they're trying to do is stoke fear and it's to score political points and it seems like, frankly, it's succeeding with the president's alleys even if it's not good government. >> various groups have began distributing, erika, information to people on their rights, what they can and cannot do, if they are approached. various immigration rights groups, civil rights groups,

churches, are doing it all over the country. you have rights. >> that's right. >> explain to the american people the rights that people have if, in fact, they were approached by some agents of i.c.e. >> absolutely. i can say first of all that i was really happy to hear that in new york, the raids were not successful. at least the ones that were reported because people actually followed what they've been hearing on social media from organizations i've been promoting, know your rights presentati presentations, know your rights graphics on social media. that's a reason why it was successful for them not to be apprehended by i.c.e. when they show up at their door. what we're always telling our community is make sure if they come and knock on your door, you have a right not to open that door. you have a right to remain silent. you have the right to ask for an attorney before you do anything with them. i can tell you that i.c.e. lies a lot. i.c.e. actually raided my home in 2013. they took my mom, they took my broth

brother. the reason why we ended up opening the door which was a huge mistake. they lied to me and said my brother outside was going to be taken by the police if i didn't open the door. of course, my mom opened it and they took her and took my brother. so i can tell you that i.c.e. lies to the community every day. they are raiding people all the time. that's why we need to abolish that agency. we need to make sure we change the system that is actually targeting people who are here working hard. just asking for an opportunity. congress has failed us for many years. they have not passed any immigration reform. and that's the reason why people right now are in this country suffering and the reason they're being terrorized by the current president and i can tell you under obama, there was also deportations so swe need to change course. we need do it now. of course, in the future, strategy for democrats, we need to make sure we're no longer putting more and more money into i.c.e. and border patrol agents. >> elliot, quickly, we're out of time, but do i.c.e. agents or deportation officers have the right to violate people's rights in the name of enforcing these

laws in terms of immigration? >> no. >> all right. >> i mean, no one ever has the right to violate rights and i just, you know, we should be clear about that. people -- as erika said, people do have rights under the 4th amendment of the united states constitution. if someone's not there to execute a criminal search warrant in a home, which most of these warrants would not be, that agent doesn't have the authority to enter a home. most of the i.c.e. warrants that we're talk -- most of the times i.c.e. approaches a home are under an administrative order, not a criminal search warrant that's authorized by a judge or anything like that. >> all right. elliot williams and erika andiola, thank you both for being with us. coming up, as undocumented immigrants brace in fear for i.c.e. deportation raids, we'll talk with congressman adriano espaillat who represents harlem and washington heights in new

york about what he's seeing in his community and about the rapper he's pushing to be released from prison in europe. back after this. oh! ♪ ozempic®! ♪ (announcer) people with type 2 diabetes are excited about the potential of once-weekly ozempic®. in a study with ozempic®, a majority of adults lowered their blood sugar and reached an a1c of less than 7 and maintained it. oh! under 7? (announcer) and you may lose weight. in the same one-year study, adults lost on average up to 12 pounds. oh! up to 12 pounds? (announcer) a two-year study showed that ozempic® does not increase the risk of major cardiovascular events like heart attack, stroke, or death. oh! no increased risk? (announcer) ozempic® should not be the first medicine for treating diabetes, or for people with type 1 diabetes or diabetic ketoacidosis. do not share needles or pens. don't reuse needles. do not take ozempic® if you have a personal or family history of medullary thyroid cancer, multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if you are allergic to ozempic®. stop taking ozempic® and get medical help right away

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vague support for the idea and my national action network conference in april. some mild pushing there by yours truly. and this week when mayor pete buttigieg unveiled his plan for black america, it included in it direct reparations to descend t descendants of black american slaves. that's where we are going into 2020. but i think my continued disbelief stems from my remembering the ancient history that was the 2008 presidential race. when the black democratic front-runner did not, or politically, in my judgmenjudgm could not endorse the idea of reparations arguably because of the blow-back from white voters he needed to win. yet, for all of his care, his care in being politically careful there not to rock the boat on race, barack obama had precious few friends on the

other side of the aisle. perhaps, his biggest human obstacle being then-senate minority leader mitch mcconnell whose political reason for being was to make the first black commander in chief a one-term president. as such, you can imagine mr. mcconnell didn't endorse reparations a decade ago, and last month, senate majority leader mitch mcconnell made it plain. >> i don't think reparations are something that happened 150 years ago for whom none of us currently living are responsible is a good idea. we've, you know, tried to deal with our original sin of slavery by fighting a civil war, by passing landmark civil rights legislation. we've elected an african-american president. >> i don't have time to question what "we" the senator is referring to as having voted for president obama because earlier

this week, nbc unearthed census records from the 19th century that found that two of senator mcconnell's great-great-grandfathers were slave owners in alabama just before the civil war with a combined ownership of 14 human beings. all of two but whom were female. because this is america, the news wasn't exactly a revelation. what was surprising was the breathtaking cynicism of mcconnell's response. take a listen. >> i find myself, once again, in the same position as president obama. we both oppose reparations and we both are the descendants of slave holders. >> senator mcconnell, by that token, i and darn near every black person in america are in that boat that you think you share with president obama. the difference is, and was,

agency, because unless either of your great-great grandmothers was a slave, they probably had a choice to procreate with your male ancestors. for millions of black women enslaved by white men, likely including the 12 that your forebearers owned, that was not a case of choice. but here's where you and president obama are almost in alignment. he couldn't endorse reparations i believe for fear that he'd lose the race and adjacent white voters. you won't endorse reparations for near you'll lose racist adjacent white voters. if you fail to see that difference, i gotcha. best for you, i'll take that. wait honey, no. when you want it. you get a delivery experience you can always count on.

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and with president trump's xenophobic tweet this morning against congresswomen of color making even plainer his views on race and which nations he respects, congressional democrats are doing two things. banding together around a common condemnation of the president and urban representatives, especially those that know the immigrant experience, are telling their constituents to be vigilant, know their rights. in a word, stay woke. joining me now is congressman -- democratic congressman of new york, adriano espaillat. congressman, let me start with the i.c.e. raids. what does this mean to your constituents in harlem and washington heights when they are announcing they're going after tens of thousands of -- i think the president said one time -- millions of people that are here illegally? >> well, from the very

beginning, this president has used immigration as the wedge issue, scapegoating immigrants across the country, setting out chilling effect and fear across the country. and so any time he speaks about immigration, he threatens with raids, he threatens with a census issues, he threatens with the muslim ban and he threatens to split up families, you know, this sets out a chilling effect across the country and people -- some people go underground and so we're very concerned. i've heard from people in north carolina where raids were going on several months back. >> right. >> i heard from some supermarket owners, latino supermarket se owners. they say a drop in 40% of their business because people were afraid to go out and buy and shop in their local supermarkets. so this has a chilling effect. had it been during the school year, maybe families will not take their children to school. >> wow. >> if somebody gets sick, they may choose not to go to the emergency room. so this is hurting people and

we're very concerned, but people should know their rights. do not open the door unless they have a legitimate search warrant signed by a judge. if they do get arrested, they have the right, obviously, to an attorney. so there are some fundamental rights that will not be negated. >> now, what is your reaction to the president's tweets this morning about four of your colleagues that he said should go back to where they come from? >> well, this is all part of his regular rhetoric. this is part of his modus operandi. you know, he's going to drive wedge issues for the next election, and he chooses immigration, people of color, to be the wedge issue for his white nationalist, conservative, racist followers. he wants them to come out. so, of course, he wants to look like he's a macho man and he's deporting a woman and her

9-month-old baby. that's why he considers that to be right and will motivate his base. >> how do we look to the world when people can see people, children, being held in cages? some up to 40 days with no sanitary -- >> horrendous. >> what does this say to the world about -- >> i tell you what i saw down on the border, i saw mothers, primarily women with young children packed on the cold floor of a cell, packed like sardines. this is a horrendous message to send to the rest of the world. the whole world is watching. we should be ashamed of what's going on. >> congressman, i want to pivot to another story you and i have gotten involved in. this week as my national action network headquarters, i met with a mother of a platinum selling rapper, asap rocky, who's under arrest after an altercation in stockholm, sweden, earlier this month. rocky, real name, rockeim myer, maintains he and his entourage were followed and harassed by

hecklers. swedisish authorities held him since july 2nd pending an assault accusation, if convicted he faces up to six years in prison. you intervened, we talked about this, i believe you met with the mother today. >> i met with the mother today. i wrote to the state department, the u.s. embassy, in speedweden. of course, the ambassador to the united states in washington. the letter i got back from the swedish government was very boilerplate language, we don't goat involved in local -- they didn't even have the dignity to pronounce or say, write the names of the three detainees. >> there's two -- >> there's two others. there's bladi and dj nicki related to asap rocky. >> a cousin. >> a cousin, i believe. bladi is from the bronx. he's the photographer. clearly, if you see the video, you'll see, they were the victims. >> right. >> they were followed, harassed, accosted by two males.

those two -- one of the two males threw their headphones at one of the security guard. and they at all times try to avoid the conflict, the fight. you hear them in the video saying we don't want to fight, don't want to wind up in jail. >> we don't want any troubles. >> correct. now they wind up in jail. sweden has this reputation of being the mecca of democracy. has this reputation to be full of niceties. we're seeing the other way, something completely different. >> these are american citizens. why can't the united states state department do something? >> the united states state department should be pushing hard to get them back home. they should be released immediately. they were the victims. and sweden should be ashamed of themselves. they're going to walk out of this with a black eye, believe me. sweden which proposes to the rest of the world that they are the mecca, the haven of democracy and niceties, is looking kind of harsh to me right now. >> you have artists saying they won't perform there because of this. i mean, there's no rationale

not -- fine. give them a bail. let them appear back when and if there's a trial or at least a hearing, but to hold them -- and i understand in horrendous conditions they're being -- >> that's correct. they were until recently confined to a cell for 23 hours with only one hour really in solitary confinement. in sweden, the meccaniceties. i say to you, reverend, they should be released immediately. they were the victims in this case. they were not the perpetrators. the perpetrators should be arrested and prosecuted and the u.s. state department should do what it must do which is to make sure they get released immediately. >> congressman adriano espaillat. thank you. the latest nbc news shows president trump may have a tougher re-election fight than many previously thought. we'll take a look at those numbers, next. stick with us. back in a few. k with us. back in a few. times change. eyes haven't. that's why we created new ocuvite eye performance.

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it's looking like president trump will have a tough re-election fight when he faces the democratic nominee in 2020. an nbc news/"the wall street journal" poll out today looked at potential general election matchups and shows trump losing to each of the top democratic contenders. though his matchup with kamala harris is within the margin of error. but before we start thinking about the general, first, a democrat needs to win the

nomination. in the latest survey, joe biden is still the favorite, leading the pack at 26%. elizabeth warren has moved up to second place at 19% followed by harris and bernie sanders tied for third. and among the crucial democratic voting bloc, african-americans, biden is in front by leaps and bounds yielding 46% of black support, and his competitors nowhere close. my panel is back. alexander heffner, host of "the open mind" on pbs and republican consultant shermichael singleton. shermichael, what does this latest nbc/"wall street journal" poll say to you? president can be beat outright by three at this point of the top contenders, tied and a point below senator kamala harris, and what does the democratic polls say to you even after the first debate as we're now maybe, what,

12 days, 10 days, ahead, of the second debate? >> well, the first poll, rev, i know everyone always talks about how hillary clinton beat donald trump as far as popular vote is concerned, that doesn't matter. you have to win the electoral college. when you look at the key states that delivered the electoral college to him,margins. there's this notion it's difficult to beat an incumbent. i would typically agree with that historically speaking. those incumbents usually win by greater margins than trump. you have states where trump won by 10,000 votes, 44,000 votes. you look at demographic groups that didn't turn out, for example, like african-americans, you could have made up those margins. so i'm almost certain, again, i've said this before on your show, with the right candidate who can turn out individuals, i do believe that the president can be beaten because he did not win in key states by large enough margins to tell me otherwise. going to the second poll, what it does indicate is despite the horrible two weeks that joe

biden had, it didn't really nudge his support with african-americans. and i think there is something to say to name i.d., number one, but also spending eight years with the first african-american president. rev, i believe you even said this a week ago maybe. he was there fighting on behalf of president obama. i think a lot of african-americans will look at that and say, look, the guy isn't perfect, he made some mistakes, he's finally coming to apologize, a little late, but he was there for eight years and he was really protecting our first black president that a lot of african-americans love and respect. i think that really depogoes a way. >> alexander, what would you counsel the democrats given this poll that they need to do in the second debate? >> i think senator harris was right on point about a food fight, not doing a food fight redux, ensuring that there is unity. that's number one. but secondly i think, again, this will be an opportunity for

the democrats to prepare themselves for the reality that biden may not be what they need in terms of having the sufficient charisma, having the sufficient stature -- >> but he's still ahead in the polls. >> look, i think that's soft. i think that the debate eroded some of the support, not with the african-american community. i think once we start hearing the candidates discuss in debates in anticipation of south carolina more issues that are salient to black voters that that may change. the bottom line is the debate demonstrated that biden does not have a natural native instinct right now when it comes to capturing the discontent, the disunion. but if he just really stuck to restating, reasserting his message from that opening campaign ad on the moral decay of this presidency, restoring

decency and honor to the office, if every answer reflected that mission, then i think he could be on to something. but at the moment, i mean i think that that listlessness is contagious. unless there's a stronger performance in the second debate, television matters. we see today that "the apprentice" president is actually the one in the white house. so i don't think biden can just discount the significance of these upcoming debates. >> i don't think he is. >> supposedly he was prepped and he didn't show. >> i think shermichael, that a lot of polling shows that many democrats that are going to vote in the primaries also want to see who's tough enough to stand up there against donald trump. >> that matters. >> and they really want to see if you can really deal with a president who is unhinged in many ways. >> donald trump does not -- look, i worked on three presidential campaigns. there's usually an order and way by which you sort of govern

yourselves on those campaigns. donald trump does not follow those rules. he does not sort of stay away from personal attacks, from family attacks, from character attacks. so whomever democrats ultimately choose, rev, it's going to have to be someone who can go toe to toe with donald trump. i don't know if that's joe biden, i don't know if that's kamala harris. as a republican, i'm not going to dictate who democrats would choose. but the best advice i'd say to democrats and whoever that nominee will ultimately be, you must be prepared for any and everything. >> the former first lady, some of us say first lady forever, michelle obama, say they go low, we go high. is that a good strategy to fight donald trump? >> when you talk about fighting fire with fire, the democrats' fire should not be dishonesty ever. fire with fire means you fight with vigor, you fight with intensity, you fight with the truth. fighting fire with fire is exactly what democrats have to

do. harris did that, and then she flipped on busing days later. she merchandised her moral conviction, which was righteous -- >> wait a minute, i don't want to -- look, i have my disagreements with senator harris but i don't want to pick on the only black woman in the race. does she need -- does she have areas of improvement? absolutely. >> as they all do. >> she was formidable on the debate stage. >> i don't want to highlight her faults as if none of the other candidates don't have faults as well. >> she was commendable on that stage in asserting her truth as a young -- >> everyone felt she was the most effective. >> she was. >> and what was helpless was biden's response. i mean his lack of authority and his lack of ownership. look, he could have said i was the first vice president to champion same-sex marriage. i may have evolved on civil rights, but i am there. >> what he shouldn't have said and i said to him saying it was states' rights. that's a critical point.

i'm going to have to leave it there, we're out of time. thank you both. up next, my final thoughts. stay with us. award winning interface. award winning design. award winning engine. the volvo xc90. the most awarded luxury suv of the century.

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son, were joined by a dozen police brutality victims' parents and mothers, mothers of the movement, as we visited his gravesite. buried next to him, his daughter, who had passed while she helped to champion with her family and mother the fight for justice for eric garner. it reminds us that too many cases are open. many did not achieve any justice at all. the officer who on video was recorded choking eric garner, as he said 11 times "i can't breathe" has yet to be fired by the new york city police department, and the federal government will run out of time this week on whether they could have brought federal charges. clearly that is not going to happen under this administration. this country cannot restore what it needs to in terms of relationship between communities and police based on trust and

partnership without showing that police must be accountable if they step over the line and particularly if they break the law. we must have the law enforced for everyone, not for those that are not guilty. we cannot be anti-community or anti-police, but we must be anti-wrong, no matter who does the wrong. that does it for me this weekend. i'll see you back here next saturday at 5:00 p.m. eastern. up next, "meet the press" with chuck todd. this sunday, the democratic presidential race. >> that's the america we believe in. >> we have a chance to do this. >> and i got a plan for that. >> our brand new nbc news/"wall street journal" poll, who's up, who's down, and our first look at how the candidates' fare against president trump. >> we have a president who is undermining democracy.