one more thing on a story we've been reporting on tonight. senators mazie hirono and tim kaine tomorrow are going to discuss their visit to a very controversial immigrant detention center in el paso, and they're going to do it on "the beat." so stay tuned for that 6:00 p.m. eastern tomorrow. but don't go anywhere right now. "hardball" is up next. the russians are here. let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. we could not have a more important guest than we have tonight, the chairman of the house judiciary committee is coming here in a few minutes. tonight we're going to ask jerry nadler of new york to tell us what the democratic house will do now in light of the historic revelations highlighted yesterday by special counsel robert mueller of the trump administration's cooperation with a foreign power in the corruption of the american

presidential election. will there be impeachment or not? that's coming up. you don't want to miss it. but first, and this is really important, robert mueller yesterday issued a dire warning to congress and the american people that the russians are already working to undermine the 2020 election. >> i have seen a number of challenges to our democracy. the russian government's effort to interfere in our election is among the most serious. >> it wasn't a single attempt. they're doing it as we sit here. and they expect to do it during the next campaign. >> even as we sit here. his testimony highlighted several areas of concern including russian hacking, russian propaganda on social media and russian intrusions into our actual voting systems. and now the senate is taking up steps to address at least one of those concerns. in a bipartisan report issued just today, the senate intelligence committee detailed the russian threat to america's

election infrastructure, assessing the vulnerabilities of our voting system, our voting machines that we rely on for fair and free elections. the infrastructure at the state and local level was sorely lacking. aging voting equipment, particularly voting machines that had no paper record of votes were vulnerable to exploitation by a committed adversary. according to this report, the committee's investigation scrutinized the 21 states that authorities originally believed were targeted by russia in 2016. reports suggest, however, that all 50 states, look at them there, were all likely targeted by the russians. and while no evidence suggests that any votes were changed this time, the report ominously says that russia may have been probing vulnerabilities in voting systems to exploit later. in other words, they've been casing, like people walking up the street looking for windows open or the car doors open. and this comes after senate republicans blocked two election security bills last night following mueller's testimony,

including legislation intended to provide cyber assistance to senators themselves that prevent them from being hacked. the hill newspaper was first to report the bill was blocked by a single republican senator, senator cindy hyde-smith. in fact, in a tweet she said senate democrats try to push partisan election bills without going through regular order right after the house hearings with mueller. coincidence? no. just more political theater. that's what she said. i'm joined by mieke eoyang, vice president for third way. ed mcmullin formally with the cia and michael beschloss. we're getting ready for jerry nadler to come. this is big stuff. it has nothing to do with partisan politics, it seems to me, yet it seems to do that. why don't we check out all our systems like the russians but make sure we can't get hacked. we won't get honest accounts next year. >> you're right to point out

this shouldn't be a partisan issue. should it be anything but that. but the republicans in the senate, you a senator today and yesterday saying look, these bills to secure our elections, these bills, one of which would require political candidates to report offers of assistance from foreign entities are partisan. saying that's anti-republican simply because i think the president received such help and has said publicly recently that he won't report it in the future. >> so he is sensitive. >> he is sensitive if we try to clean up our act so we don't get destroyed political. michael, i'm thinking about history here. imagine -- we've had a bad situation in 2000 where florida -- because everybody has a different counting system and you couldn't get a straight count. >> of course. >> suppose the russians make sure that one of the states doesn't have an honest count. and trump says, oh, it wasn't 270? i'm still here. >> absolutely. >> what happens then? >> or he says it was a rigged election, and i'm not leaving,

or he thinks at this point that people on his behalf that this election will be carried for him by the russians or some other friendly government, which is not terribly sharp because there are a lot of governments that do not wish him well and could get involved in this system. and it goes something right back to the beginning of america history. you and have i talked about this. when this system began, the founders thought one of our biggest vulnerabilities was that foreign powers would try to manipulate elections to do their bidding. george washington fired his secretary of state edmond randolph because he thought he was an agent of the french trying to help the french take over our country. this is something we've been dealing with for years. >> the french backing the jeffersonian democrats, and we had the hamiltonians in league with the brits. >> right. >> and the russians decide to join the civil war and the brits from the side of the south. we've been through this mess. mieke, this question is right in front of us right now. we've got 50 states, 50 different ways of counting votes. we've god chads, been through

all that. we don't have a lot of states with paper trails. if something gets screwed up and what the special counsel told the whole world yesterday, they're doing it right now, the russian, right now. >> that's right. you have a bunch of state elections very diverse. one of the advantage of the diversity of the system is it's very hard to hack in a single spot because there are different kinds of election machines out there. and so it's possible that you couldn't get through to all of them at one time. but the challenge is our election is so close that only a few pivotal counties are going to make the difference and would be enough to throw it into chaos. >> i think it's going to be one hell of a close election next time. >> that's right. >> i think trump will make a comeback. incumbents always make comebacks at the end, no matter how bad they are. >> with recalls for recounts. >> to michael's point about it being shortsighted, the president will never be seen as the legitimate president of the united states in his reelection if he doesn't do something to secure the election system.

>> who dares tell him that? who dares tells trump honest elections are good for people who want to win because then you really do win. >> you're trump and you're deeply unpopular at the same time the economy is thriving by traditional measures, you may not care whether you're perceived by everyone as legitimate. you're trying to stay in power so you don't face the consequences of losing office, which for someone like the president who does face legal challenge. he has real legal vulnerabilities if he is no longer in office. >> barry bonds about asterisk. who wants to have an asterisk next to their name? >> on a larger challenge if he is out of office, he can't protect himself from the legal vulnerabilities. >> another election security bill which was blocked last night would have required campaigns to report foreign contacts. pretty reasonable. specifically, it would prevent or discourage any candidate for federal office for withholding foreign offers of dirt from the fbi that is exactly what president trump said he would do again in 2020.

if given a dirt opportunity, he would grab for the dirt. let's watch. >> you want that kind of interference in our elections? >> it's not interference. they have information. i think i'd take it. this is somebody who said we have information on your opponent. oh, let me call the fbi. give me a break. >> the fbi director says that's what should happen. >> the fbi director is wrong. >> do you like the way he resorts so that sort of street accent, things are tough all over. we do what we can. anyway, the legislation was blocked after robert mueller specifically said that accepting foreign assistance was not only unethical, possibly criminal, but also unpatriotic. >> from your testimony today, i gather that you believe that knowingly accepting foreign assistance during a presidential campaign is an unethical thing to do. >> and a crime. >> and a crime. >> circumstances, yes. and given certain circumstances. >> and to the degree that it undermines our democracy and our institutions, we can bring that it's also unpatriotic? >> true.

>> and wrong? >> true. >> do we agree on this, michael? is the country in agreement on this, or is the country when you get back in the dark rooms and everybody is doing what they can to get ahead do, they secretly say if we secretly get dirt on hillary clinton, we're grabbing from it. we don't care where it comes from moscow or where it's coming from. i just wonder if we agree to be citizens again. >> i certainly hope we do not agree on this. >> do not agree? >> do not agree, that we don't agree agree that this is not a bad thing. >> right. >> every democratic candidate from adlai stevenson to hubert humphrey and probably beyond was secretly offered help by russian agents. the soviet ambassador even called up lyndon johnson with a tape recorder running in september of 1964 and said mr. khrushchev would like to see you win. what can he do to help you? that offer was made to all of them and they all said no help, get out of here. >> don't let him know you're

rooting for me. let me go to mieke on this. what do you say about a president? how do we clean up a system where half the political force in the country which is coming out of the white house is like the system it is now. grab what you can for the russians. >> i think this is a real challenge to our democracy. the president won with less than the majority of american support. his support is below 50% now and it's never been above 50%. it's very hard in a democracy to reach consensus when you don't have the support of the majority of the people. i think we have to take a real serious look at some of the campaign forms to be able to fix our electoral. >> i think we should fix the machinery at at least. i can live with the social media and the kompromat and all that stuff, but when it comes down to actual voting, i like to believe the numbers are the truth. >> they have to be sacred. >> this is the thing about that. many of us are focused on whether the russians are indeed changing votes or not. that is important and this senate intelligence committee report today raises that issue.

but there are much -- >> in other words, the case -- >> yes. >> they could rob it next year. >> yes. but there is another issue that i think is far more possible another threat, and we should worry about too, at least as much. and that is that if the russians simply did what they did before, which is to hack into voting rules and maybe a little bit more, 10 or 20% more, maybe they hack deeper, maybe they switch a few things around, if they just do enough so that state governments aren't able to certify elections, or so that news media then responsibly reports that this hacking has occurred, it's a form of voter suppression. >> right. >> people start to lose faith. >> talk about it possibly being compromised the russians win. >> that's right. >> mueller also reprimanded the president, president trump, for encouraging a hostile intelligence service wikileaks to release democratic emails in 2016, calling trump's statements -- well, he was

understating here -- problematic. here he goes. >> problematic is an understatement in terms of displays, in terms of giving some i don't know, hope or some boost to what is and should be illegal activity. >> well, here is what the president said in response to that just minutes later. >> and do you regret talking so much about wikileaks given robert mueller called that problematic? >> so wikileaks is a hoax just like everything else. >> it's not a hoax. >> it's not a hoax. look, wikileaks is a very serious problem. it has been for the intelligence community in republican and democratic administrations alike. they've put a lot of information out there without regard to the national security issues. but it's very clear on a bipartisan basis, the senators and the house members view wikileaks as an intelligence threat. >> and just a minute, i'd like to remind people just in the interest of some kind of fair innocence this country, just

imagine all these facts in the report was highlighted yesterday by the special counsel in bed with the russians. if it had been hillary clinton, hillary clinton, just imagine what the republicans would be doing. they'd be talking about i don't know, capital punishment? mieke eoyang, thank you so much, evan mueller and michael beschloss. the president welcomed the help, encouraged it and used it. what are they going to do than? u.s. congressman jerry nadler of new york joins us next. and joe biden says no more mr. nice guy. he warns he is going to stop being so polite to his democratic rivals. maybe he'll be ready for them this time. and now he is aggressively going after senators kamala harris and cory booker in a preview that is likely to be a knock down, drag-out fight next week in the debate in detroit. much more ahead. stick with us.

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the president has repeatedly claimed that your report found there is no obstruction and that it completely and totally exonerated him. but that is not what your report said, is it? >> correct. that is not what the report said. >> and what about total exoneration? did you actually totally exonerate the president? >> no. >> now in fact your report expressly states it does not exonerate the president? >> it does. >> welcome back to "hardball" that was the chairman of the house judiciary committee. u.s. congressman jerry nadler of new york questioning special counsel robert mueller on trump's repeated claim that he was exonerated by the special counsel's report. mueller also confirmed that russia interfered in our election and the trump campaign welcomed it, encouraged it, made use of it and covered up that help. so what are the democrats going to do in light of those revelations highlighted by the special counsel? will there be impeachment or not?

joining me is the chairman of the house judiciary committee congressman jerry nadler. congressman, i spent a good part of my life working for politicians. i respect you guys a lot. i understand the pressures that come from leadership, the pressures that come from home. i guess my question is at what point do you have to resolve the question to impeach or not? >> well, we have to start by looking at where we are. where we are, as you said, the special prosecutor found that the president welcomed the russian interference in our election on his behalf, that he welcomed it and he benefitted from it, and that he then lied to the american people and covered it up, that he committed a number of acts of between fived on ten acts of criminal obstruction of justice and at least five of them all three of the elements of the crimes are met, and he instructed other people to lie to the american people on his behalf. our next step, and those are the findings of the special prosecutor. we now have to lay out the evidence for the american people

of all these crimes by the president and of the failure of the president to protect us against the ongoing russian attack on elections. that's our next step, and that's what we're going to do as our next step. >> let's take a look at the -- i know you must think about this all the time. it's now almost august. when richard nixon, the house judiciary committee got authorization to move on impeachment against him was in february of '74. he resigned in august. that's about six months. how many months would you need to move a case to the senate? in other words, to move an impeachment if you steed secede in how many months would it take? you've got from august now to maybe next august, right? >> i don't know how many months that would take. but i do know what we have to do next. and we face the challenge that was not faced 20 -- or 40 years ago, and that is that the president and the administration have systematically blocked information from congress, have systematically opposed all

subpoenas, and not only on the malfeasance of the administration and of the trump campaign, but also on things like family separation at the border, the rigging of the census, and everything else. now this we have to break that logjam so that we can get the evidence before the american people, and we're going to court to do that in fact tomorrow. >> i thought you got a lot of information the first couple of questions. you got him to admit the president lied about being exonerated. there is information pretty much up front there about the russian role. it seems to me the lion's share of what you have to prove you guys and women up on the hill have done that it's done thanks to the work done by the special counsel. i'm sorry. >> a lot of it is done, but it is still undone. we -- the american people have to hear directly, for example, from don mcgahn as to -- and he has to testify in front of congresses so that he can what the president said to him, what

illegal instructions the president said to him. we have to hear from other witnesses who testified to mueller. but we need to hear and the american people need to hear their testimony directly. this has been blocked and we're going court to unblock it. >> but you're talking about what you would like to get done. you'd like to hear from mcgann. you might like to get the president's tax returns. but if you don't, the clock is moving. it's this fall. you have six weeks less this year and then you have next year, a presidential election year. i'm just wondering whether nancy pelosi, as good hearted as she is about this, is basically playing for time. that eventually you're going to say it's too late. >> i don't think she is playing for time. we have to do our work, and i don't think there are only six weeks left. there is nothing that says we can't good to court and hold hearings during the august recess. we're not going to just go on vacation for the next six weeks. but we have to lay out this information for the american people so that they can join us

in agreeing on what we have to do. >> you've got about 80-some, sometimes it rises to 90 some members of your caucus, the democratic caucus who want to see an impeachment proceedings again. you've got people i'm sure in your district, any big city district i think it's fair to say there are people burning for something to happen. when is the day of reckoning between those forces which you represent, actually, personally, the forces who want to see impeachment and the leadership. when is the unstoppable push for this reach the hard place. there has to be a reckoning date, doesn't there have to be, or this is going to slip away into 2021? >> no, this cannot -- deciding what we're going to do about this administration and about the crimes that have been committed and making sure that they can't happen again and that the attack on congress powered to oversee this or any other administration is not successful, cannot wait until

2021. and i can't give you a hard date, but i know the work that has to be done, and we're going to be doing it. >> do you know how long it would take you to move 3r50proceeding once they move to the senate? >> no, i don't. what i'm worried about now is how fast we can get these cases through the court. and the key is the grand jury, information asking for tomorrow and the enforcement of the subpoena to mcgahn which will set the stage for everyone else, because the same nonsense legal arguments that they're using on mcgahn are the same arguments they're using on all the others. and we will win in court. we will win fairly quickly because they are nonsense legal arguments. and then the floodgates will open. >> you have you the authority here, mr. chairman you. said the other day you have the power as the chair, and the other chairs do too who are investigating to initiate impeachment proceedings. when will you decide it's time for you to do that no matter

what the speaker believes, that you have to make a decision as a political figure yourself you, have to move? because if this goes by and trump stays in office and gets reelected and history says he got away with this whole thing, the whole engagement, in bed with the russian, all this awful stuff and he never even gets voted on for impeachment, he will have won and your side will have lost. >> well, i certainly agree that we cannot permit the president to get away with these crimes and to set the precedents for other presidents. and we're going to move as expeditiously as we can on the fronts that i said we're going to move on. >> what's more important to the people of your district in the west side of new york, impeaching this president for what he has clearly done and you know he has done and you said it so loud or holding the house in the next election? what's more important?

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welcome back to "hardball." back with the chairman of the house judiciary committee jerry nadler of new york. mr. chairman, i worked for tip o'neill when he was fighting the fight for impeachment back in the '70s against dick nixon. he was pushing for action, and it was the chairman of the house judiciary committee peter rodino of new jersey who was holding it up, resisting it. he was conservative. everybody in the country believes it's the opposite right now, that you believe that it's time to impeach this guy, that the record is there already and that the leadership is holding you back. that accurate? >> i'm not going to comment on that. i think there is very -- i've said there is very substantial evidence that the president has committed multiple crimes and impeachable offenses. but i said there is a three-part test to impeachment. one, has the president committed impeachable offenses, two, are those serious offenses? and three, you have to have enough evidence so an impeachment would not tear the country apart.

>> yeah. >> and that's one of the reasons why we have to get more evidence before the american people, and that's what we're working at, and that's where we're going into court tomorrow. >> so i'm wrong in reading you, sir. i read you every day as really wanting to move. if it was just up to your gut, your feeling about the country, your feeling about what this president has done this the country, what does your feeling say about this guy? does he deserve to go? >> oh, does he deserve to go? of course he deserves to go. but the question is what i said a minute ago, and we have to finish the job of amassing enough evidence before the american people so that we can meet that three-part test. >> if it comes to new year's 2020, can we still do it? if you start it next year? >> well, i think -- i'm not sure where we're going to end up, but we're already moving. >> yes. >> it's not a question of starting anything. the hearing we held yesterday

with mr. mueller is part of it. our continuing hearings that we're going to be holding are part of it. getting the evidence in front of the american people is part of it. going to court in order to enable us to do that is part of it. it's all part of the process, a process. >> i just want to congratulate you, sir. you as chairman and all the members of your committee, the democratic members did a really good job. whatever slowness there was on the part of the witnesses, just life. i think you really did a good job in those questions you put to him. >> thank you. >> if you listen to the highlights yesterday you got the payload. it happened. you got the proof this president should go. thank you congressman jerry nadler of new york city. in the wake of robert mueller's testimony, house speaker nancy pelosi is grappling with the diverging forces in her caucus, pulling her in opposite directions to impeach or not to impeach, to be or not to be. the immediate upshot for democratic leaders who have faced turmoil within their caucus for refusal to begin impeachment proceedings against

trump is the hearings appeared to do little to galvanize against president trump. to discuss a path forward, multiple sources inside the meeting said during the meeting jerry nadler fielded technical questions about the impeachment process. chairman nadler said the six committee chairs leading the house investigation could actually draft articles of impeachment themselves, and a full house to begin impeachment proceedings was not necessary. well, privately speaker pelosi told her members it was up to them to make up their minds on impeachment. publicly, pelosi has urged democrats to build the strongest possible case but warned the trump administration her patience was not unlimited. let's take a look. >> we want to have the strongest possible case to make a decision as to what path we will go down. and that is not endless in terms of time. or endless in terms of the information that we want. but if it comes to a point where

the cone of silence and the obstruction of justice and the cover-up in the white house prevents us from getting that information, that will not prevent us from going forward. in fact, it's even more grounds to go forward. >> for more i'm joined by u.s. congresswoman jackie speier of california who is often on the program, a member of the house intelligence committee, also the oversight committee and robert costa, "washington post," national political reporter. congresswoman, i guess it comes down to a reckoning. when is the reckoning? when do the forces who want to see impeachment in your caucus come up against those who resist acting because they don't think you have the votes or whatever or they think it's bad politics, or whatever. when that's going to happen? >> so chris, i'm at a point in this process, i've already come out in fraifr of starting an inquiry. i'm at the point where we should the be able to decide september when we come back, either we're doing it or we're not doing it. this dance that we're playing is -- is ridiculous. and we're not looking very decisive. >> talk about the timing.

because i went through the numbers. you all know, members of congress are so politically astu astute. you know what the people at home think. you know about the chance of jeopardizing the leadership of the house and keeping control of the house. you know all these things in your soles. my question is do you have enough time if you start in september to impeach this guy? >> well, i think that's the last time that we can really move forward swiftly to have a process that works. i mean, it may require us to take some vacation time away at christmas time. it might reduce the length of time that we can spend with our families at thanksgiving. but i do think that if we -- if we don't do it then, then we're not doing it. and to stop talking as if we might do it. and it's very frustrating to many of our constituents, i think, because it doesn't look like we are making a decision. i mean, the report is very clear. interestingly enough, i had a huge uptick in phone calls today

in my office as a result of the mueller presentation. so i'm sure that's happening in other offices as well, and i think now the american people are starting to kind of focus on what really went on. for the longest time, all we were hearing from the president and others is it's a russian hoax. no. the hoax was on us. >> thank you, congresswoman. robert, that's the best thing i've heard. it's a seasoned assessment of the situation the democrats face. because like most things in life, there is a time limit. you can't just think and think and think. at some point you got to get on that galloping horse of history i mention all the time in the show. the horse is going by. you either get on it or not. she said it's september. the congresswoman. >> i spent all day wednesday by the trains down by the senate talking to senate democrats, senate republicans. when i huddled with senate democrats, they said their party has to make a choice. do they want to impeach trump in the house or do they actually want to win a trial in the senate. if they want to do the latter and actually remove him from

office in 2020 or try to remove him from office, they need to mount the evidence against him in a compelling way. >> that's big if. the question is if you can't do that, if you have what you have now, as rumsfeld would, you have to fight the war with the army you have now. they have a hell of a lot of evidence out there that this guy obstructed justice. that he played ball with the resoluti russians. what do they want now? do you think the tax records are going to incriminate him? who thinks that? >> part of it is a political calculus, they tell me. look at their success in 2018. they won on the economy, on jobs. >> they don't want to impeach. they don't want to impeach. you're just telling me in so many words they don't want to do it. >> in suburban districts. >> that's calculation. >> it's politics. >> back to the congresswoman. i think most people in most districts, if clough put to them in your district in california, what's more important to you impeaching this guy because he

deserves to be impeached whatever happens in the senate, which is republican. they're not going get two-thirds over there, 67 votes. but it deserves to be impeached, or is it more important to make sure you've got secure holding of the 218 votes you've got in the house to hold control of the house. what's more important, controlling the house or impeaching this guy? what would the voters think? >> i want both. and i think we can get both. i think we can get both. we might -- if we lose a couple of seats in the house as a result of pursuing impeachment, i want that in the history books. i want to be able to say that i was part of an effort to bring down a corrupt president, probably the most corrupt president in the history of this country. we have him cold. we have him obstructing justice. we have him working with the russians, giving polling data over and over again to the russians to help undermine our election. it doesn't get much more egregious than this in my book.

>> you know, robert, i know you don't take sides, but i'll tell you this one. >> never take sides. >> it's on the record. it's on the record. not only has he done this, he said he'll do it again. not only is he going to do it again, he said the united states isn't going to do anything to prevent this from happening again. this is bold. it's outrageous. he is with the other side. i'd rather play ball with the russians. >> it's a reflection of this republican party. even with mr. mueller saying what he said about interference in 2020 and fbi director chris wray you have senate republicans refusing to take up legislation to address election security in 2020 because they do not feel any political pressure. when i was up there wednesday, they're saying we don't have to move on anything because the president day in, day out on the tweets, it's framing this in this way. >> here there is our country. jackie speier, i'm so impressed by what you said. >> thanks, chris. >> as i often am. thank you, robert costa for delineating this reality is which we're stuck with the worst sort of message to the american people. we're willing to have our elections trolled with, destroyed, played with, as long

as we keep calm in the republican ranks. up next, the battle for 2020 heats up. the gloves are coming off as candidates prepare for the second debate. look likes biden is going to be in another bout. looks like he is the target of the boxing gloves. they're not wearing boxing gloves this time. we'll be right back. me we'll be right back. ast cancer, there was no hesitation, i went straight to ctca. after my mastectomy, it was maddening because i felt part of my identity was being taken away. when you're able to restore what cancer's taken away, you see that transformation firsthand knowing that she had options that she could choose, helped restore hope. my team made me feel like a whole person again. cancer treatment centers of america. appointments available now. but allstate actually helps you drive safely... with drivewise. it lets you know when you go too fast... ...and brake too hard.

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welcome back to "hardball." robert mueller's testimony yesterday has certainly gwynn a new urgency to the democratic battle to take down president trump next year. in the wake of yesterday's hearings, democrats are now left with one action to end trump's presidency. he writes what democrats were told wednesday, again, is that trump is a president willing to use whatever means necessary to blunt his opposition. robert mueller did not deliver what democrats had hope head would. if they hoped to win in 2020, it's now up to them to convince the voters. with that in mind, the gloves

are off as the democratic presidential candidates jockey ahead of next week's presidential debate. vice president joe biden traded barbs with cory booker of new jersey over biden's new criminal justice reform plan. book told biden's role in championing the 1994 crime bill while brought into question improper police stops by newark, new jersey police when booker was mayor there. >> for a guy who helped to be an architect of mass incarceration, this is an inadequate solution to what is a raging crisis in our country. >> cory knows that's not true. if he wants to go back and talk about records, i'm happy to do that, but i'd rather talk about the future. i introduced a crime bill that i challenge him or anyone else to tell me how he has a better plan than i have. >> well, biden is promising no more nice guy ahead of next week's debate, which is going to be in detroit. he'll be in between. look where he is going to be,

between cory booker who is going after him and kamala harris who already went after him. she saw her stock rise after her confrontation in last month's debate you. gain prizes in this business for going after the leader. that's mr. biden. in a fundraiser in detroit last night, biden said i'm not going to be as polite this time. if they want to argue about the past, i can do that. i got a past i'm proud of. they got a past that's not quite so good. well, there is fighting words. but when it comes to who can actually beat president trump, a new poll out today shows voters in one key state may already be convinced who that is. it won't surprise you. that's coming up next. you're watching "hardball." ♪ that a speaker is just a speaker. ♪ or - that the journey can't be the destination. most people haven't driven a lincoln. discover the lincoln approach to craftsmanship at the lincoln summer invitation. right now, get 0% apr on all 2019 lincoln vehicles

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with getaway deals of at least 15% off, you can be a booker at booking.com. welcome back to "hardball." the infighting among the democratic presidential candidates is heating up ahead of next week's second debate, which is in detroit. but a series of new polls out today shows voters in key states are still betting on the front-runner, vice president joe biden. a new quinnipiac poll out of ohio found only biden beats president trump outright. the poll shows biden leading by eight points over trump. meanwhile, a new monmouth poll out of south carolina finds the former veep leading among likely democratic voter there's by a huge margin with 39%. biden's lead is buoyed by african american supports who make up the majority of voterers in south carolina. i think they make up 62% of the vote with harris at 12, bernie

sanders at 10. they're way down. i'm joined by sam stein, and jamal simmonds, who is a democratic strategist. here is a weirdo. they have one guy who can clearly beat trump and they're beating the hell out of him. >> the process of winning the nomination means going after the front-runner, right? even though his numbers are great against trump comparative to other candidates, what are they supposed to do? just let him coast? >> i'm asking. it means new democratic coalition or november doesn't count. we're just here to beat the moderates and then we're going to have a celebration. your thoughts. >> one, the electorate is very different than it was in the old days. >> oh, tell me how. >> well, it's more minority, it's younger, it's more female. and so i think this idea that democrats are going to go and run in -- i'm from michigan. i'm from detroit. we're going run in warren or oakland county with some uaw guy with a lunch pail, you know, we

might not get that guy anymore. we might get his wife. we might get his daughter. well might get the woman -- >> is that good news in general? >> it's absolutely good news in general. look what happened in 2018 when democrats put 100 women into the house, four governors who are women. i think the democrats -- >> so you're the smiling cheerleader for change? >> listen, jimmy carter was change. bill clinton was change. barack obama was change. >> whose got the best bet to carry pennsylvania, wisconsin? >> we'll see. you're so happy you pull back. >> i think the last thing is that joe biden, if he is going to be the nominee, he has to figure out how to tough it out and prove to people he is tough enough. >> i agreed about everything. change is in the air. i believe elizabeth warren is still shooting up. who they are and how hey they going to do it are different

questions. biden answers the what. i'm not sure he answers the who. >> okay. who answers the who? >> i don't know who the ideal person is to run. i don't know. the white guy with the lunch pail. i don't know. maybe it was sherrod brown. he is not rung. you don't choose the person you. choose among those who are rung thinking is an incredible overgeneralization, but there is not really one candidate like obama in '08 who can check all the boxes of nunes but also a moderately progressive. >> we didn't know those were good boxes until obama prove they'd were. >> barack obama hussein obama? who was competing in that lane? >> the coalition is going to be incredibly hard. so you look for something maybe historic in that case. you look for a kamala harris, first black candidate, people who are generational. >> i want to get to the heart of this. >> sure. >> i just read something by the guy from "the washington examiner." i don't know how good he is, but he raised the point that kamala harris is the new obama. >> it's simplistic. >> that's bad for kamala harris. i think that comparison only rose because she is a mixed race

black senator. >> well educated. >> well educated, in the senate. in the same way people like tri-to look at warren versus hillary clinton. the only similar about them is they're older white women. there is nothing similar about elizabeth warren and hillary clinton. people worried about a woman winning next year are only thinking about hillary clinton and not think about the other women. >> speaking of senator harris, which i was, her performance at last month's debate has reportedly stoked fears among republicans. republican insiders fear she could be the next obama, writing with her surgical vivisection of biden in the first debate, it seemed their fears had been realized. what might be able to do against a real villain like trump kamala is a night. >> obama was -- >> you think he could run scared? just run away. >> remember, he didn't participate in very critical fox debate. but secondarily, this ultimately comes down to a vision of how to

get what electorate. one, do you turn out the new base as jamal was talking about, or two, do you bring out all democrats? and which candidate can do what is still to be determine. >> who can do both? >> harris is the closest to being able to do both. that's why people look at her and say okay, maybe this is the candidate. >> how about biden/harris? >> how about harris/biden? >> here is the thing i just want to say this again. those older democrats who might have been obama trump switchers. those might be issues that democrats can't run without talking about. and is the minute we start talking about them, those guys flip. >> let me ask you about yesterday's performance by mueller. did that hurt biden? >> it's an interesting question. >> he is much younger than biden. >> you know, obviously, the criticism mueller, if you want to talk about it was that he

wasn't there as fully as he could have been. obviously, there has been some smatter about biden and whether he has lost his fastball. i don't think that's overstating things. but i don't think it hurts biden necessarily, because i don't think -- i think we're having two different conversations. one is the conversation we're having and the other is what people are having. i don't think people looked outside are having. i don't think people looked at the mueller testimony and said oh my god, he has lost a step. i think they looked and said just said that the president was not exonerated, could be charged after office. >> i'm with you on the highlight reel. you're going to the highlight reel, which i agree with you. watching it for six or seven hours, what do you think people saw? what did it say about age? >> i don't think you had a lot of confidence that this was leading toward impeachment. >> does it lead towards biden? >> i don't know what the effect it has on biden, i really don't. i think people are looking at this in two separate buckets. >> he does not do interviews. he does not campaign that much out there. >> i heard that. >> people are pushing back and that feeds the idea he is not up

to the task. >> thank you, sam stein. thank you, jamal simmons. up next, will our government heed mueller's warning about russia? boy, that was a big warning yesterday. they're already here. you're watching "hardball." you're watching "hardball. ♪ limu emu & doug look limu. a civilian buying a new car. let's go. limu's right. liberty mutual can save you money by customizing your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. oh... yeah, i've been a customer for years. huh...

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robert mueller warned yesterday that the country's enemies are working even now to sabotage next year's elections. that should be an air raid alarm to the entire political world.

congress, candidates, media, voters. we need to act now and with swift determination to prevent any penetration of our country's vote count in 2020. what happened in 2000 and what the russians did in 2016 should be reason enough. 2000 taught us that a disputed count in a single state, in that case florida, can throw the whole election into dispute. we got a president-elected by a 5-4 vote by the supreme court. 2016 taught us the willfulness of a foreign adversary to influence an election campaign against the candidate it didn't want and toward the candidate it did. thanks to today's report by the senate intelligence committee, we know that the russians worked a number of efforts in 2016, hacking into the democratic national committee, a social media campaign of lies, distortions and provocations. finally, and most alarmingly, a systematic cases of state voting machinery. they were probing for where they can really hurt us in 2020. given all this, we would have to be a country of idiots not to

throw all our knowledge and technology and grit into a fight to protect ourselves. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on "all in" -- >> we should hold our elected officials to a standard higher than mere avoidance after criminality, shouldn't we? >> absolutely. >> in the wake of the mueller hearing tonight, brand-new reason to question whether the president is acting in america's best interests. >> the difficulty with this, of course, is we are all left to wonder whether the president is representing us or his financial interests. plus, what we're learning about the jailhouse injuries of convicted sex offender jeffrey epstein. the court decision that blocked the president's radical makeover of the american immigration system. a remarkable uprising that led to the resignation of puerto rico's governor. and 2020 candidate tom steyer on his new climate plan on the push for impeachment, when "l