that's our show for today. thanks for watching. "am joy" will be back next saturday. alex witti is next. >> congratulations on your nomination. listening to your butter conversation, i now need some toasts. can i get some toasts. >>. [ laughter ] >> we'll do that in two hours. good to see you my friend. a good day to all of you, 9:00 a.m. out west, welcome to "weekend of alex witt." new reaction of the president's tweeting. >> these are all six members of

congress who are people of color. >> i think we are spending way too much time reidiading in betn the lines. >> our president does not have an agenda. >> president obama endorsed an op-ed critical of the current president. should obama be speaking out more. she was the most googled candidate for night two of the last debate, marianne williamson is going to tell me what to expect this time around. >> two major stories with some serious implications. democrats starting the impeachment process and fresh reaction and outrage after president trump this morning attacked the chairman of the oversight committee, elijah cummings. first and now at least 100 house democrats support and starting the impeachment proceeding and

chairman nadler is reviewing his personal view on whether the president should be impeached. >> my personal view is he deserved impeachment and he has done many impeachable offenses. that's not the question. the question is can we develop enough evidence to put forward for the american people. we are doing it now, we are engaging an investigation into these different alleged crimes. >> the house is now in recess until september. chuck todd asked the chair of the intelligence committee, adam schiff, is there a moment when impeachment is simply too late. >> they are doing everything they can to obstruct the congressional investigation having obstructed justice so they may get to a point in the fall where we decide -- look, he's violating a different provision of the constitution by

obstructing the congress in its lawful and constitutional duty. that would not be a crime, that would be a misdemeanor. there will be a deadline. we'll either get the answers that we need or the president obstruction be so complete that itself becomes a ground for his impeachment. new attacks from president trump who's now accusing chairman cummings to hurt innocent people and to divide our country. the president's new accusation. the democrats have always play their cards. disgusting rats and rodentroden. in one interview, mulvaney in vis cyst insisted that the president's

tweets did not have to do with race. >> you can see the conditions at the border and mr. cummings saying children who are sleeping in their own feces. it is not right. mr. cummings has not been to the border recently and certainly not in this administration. when the president hears lies, he's going to fight back. >> the only african-american in the house drawing the extinction between the attack on cummings and the president telling the four congresswomen of color to go back. >> we condemn the go back tweets, you did not condemn these tweets by the president? >> i would not be doing those and tweeting this way. i think they are different and also elijah cummings and chairman cummings is someone i have worked with closely on all kinds of legislations. he's someone that cares passionately about his community and has been working tirelessly his entire adult life on behalf

of his country and his community and he's someone that he can defend himself. >> listen to what congresswoman tlaib says of what the president says going after cummings. >> our president has a hate agenda. this is a crooked seed in the white house that's making decisions on profits and based on his friends and his four profits industry would benefit from verses what it does for the american people. his hate agenda, we can see it from far away that he's incompetent and has not been able to follow through on the promises he made and people are hurting more and more. >> coming up, i will ask representative emanuel cleaver about the president's attack. let's go to the white house right now. what more are we getting from the white house? >> well, the president is not at

the white house right now. he's out and at his golf course in northern virginia for the second consecutive day. this morning he woke up and notwithstanding all the criticisms and another controversies that he ignited on elijah cummings and the fact that many people are saying he's trying to rob relations raw in this country and he's back at it with the barrage. you heard mulvaney there criticizes cummings of the detention facilities on the southern border and saying elijah cummings has not been there himself. elijah cummings may not have gone. the inspector general for the department of homeland security has had. in his report, it was described the situation as a ticking time bomb as a party inspector has been there and said severe of over crowding and the smell of human wastes that overwhelms

individuals. you heard mulvaney. the president is an equal opportunity at hitting back. if someone hits him, he hits back as well. here is a little bit more of what mulvaney has to say this morning. >> i understand that everything that donald trump says is offensive to some people. keep in mind about two weeks ago the president says things that's critical of aoc and a couple of days later, pelosi said something critical by the same group of people and she was defended by the group in the left. >> human beings would want to live there. >> this is being perceived as raci racist. do you understand why? >> the president is pushing back against and how he's done in the past and will continue to do in the future. >> the president not limiting texts to cummings today and taking onto pelosi of her san

francisco district. >> mike, thank you. liz goodwin, and charlie savage, and yamiche, welcome everybody. yamiche, the president is piling on his attacks against cummings and he's bringing nancy pelosi into this. what do you make of how all of this is playing out the last 24 hours. >> this is an example of president trump yet again scapegoating an african-american making a political point. he's talking about baltimore right now, he could be talking about chicago next week and go to detroit, all of those cities have in common is they have large african-american communities that are struggling at times and who are an example that the president wants to use to really make dog whistles at white nationalists. i often have been talking to

people about whether or not the president is doing this to those specifically to his base and people said these are not dog whistles. members of the white caucuses says this is house of wolves. mulvaney is clearly saying this is working for us and he's going to continue to do that. the trump campaign has told me specifically, he likes the idea of talking about identity, he thinks that's what this election is going to be about. it is going to be about who can be an american and what it should look like. the president thinks he's winning political battle by having these kinds of arguments. >> to the point of what yamiche is saying. i want your reaction. the mulvaney who referenced the criticisms of the border by elijah cummings as that being why all this got doing, is that likely? >> um, i think it is extremely likely there was something on fox news talking about cummings' attacks on the dhs acting

missioner and that is why trump chose him at this particular moment. that's a sort of small scale explanation of this example, i agree that this is also apart of abundantly clear pattern in trump's critical career, picking a fight with a prominent minority and doing so and racially charged terms and leads to this sort of culture war conversation that swirls and swirls and the fabric of the country to some extent. i thought mulvaney's comment, oh, they're playing the race card designs to appeal to that segment sort of white working class conservatives who don't like being accused of being racist when they say black people in the inner city you know living in ways i would not want to live and people would say oh you are playing the race card. he's deliberately appealing to that and he thinks that if he divides people this way, there are more people voting for him.

>> yamyamiche i want to ask you about nancy pelosi, she's from san francisco. and he's tishe's tied into this. >> the democrats believe someone who can play the game and who can be playing hardball politics with him. we go back to the shutdown argument to see pelosi had the state of the union pushed back and had president trump wanting to make that and giving in on a lot of the policies that are in a lot of the deals she wanted to make. he's trying to tie pelosi into this and he wants to make pelosi looks weak. nancy pelosi has not look weak throughout the entire time as speaker of the house. that's what the president wanting to find some ways to really hurt her politically. >> yeah. >> so liz.

charlie made the point that this may be a result of something the president watched from fox news, it may be because of the house oversight committee voted to subpoena all the e-mails and top white house aids. that'll include ivanka and jared kushner. how much did that impacted these tweets? >> it is hard to know as charlie said trump can be guided by what's going on, on tv and what he's seeing on his twitter account. chairman cummings is in a position of great power and he does have the ability to look into some questions that have been dogging president trump such as what happens with jared kushner's security clearance where protocol is not followed there. that's something that i am sure the president is worried about and as we have seen we are defensive of any attempts to investigate him and his administration, he's very good to change the conversation from his own you know behavior to going on the attack and

attacking people who are looking at him and he everyone sasaid f beginning, let's investigate the investigators, i am going to get the senate to investigate the house. it is unclear what that everyn e means. he's good with shifting the focus back on the power looking onto his behavior. >> if real donald trump loses in 2020, this going to be why. every single day he objects the country of the ugly divisiveexh. are people keeping up with the president's tweets and rhetoric? >> i think that statement could also be true if he wins. there are people in this country that are very much zeroed in on the president's ability to suck up air time to change the conversation and to have the topics he's interested in and be

on top of minds of millions of americans. people are aware of what the president tweeting and saying. trump's support are excited by the fact that he's taking on people in the house and the former and people in his political opponents party. the president has continue to say his rhetoric and style works for him. the president continuing to do that means that he's baking on the fact that this is how he's going to win. mulvaney is very clear, nothing is going to change. they think democrats are really crying wolf when it comes to racism. the president sees this as a political opportunity after the squad issues and at the end of the week, i remember someone asking him do you think you are in a better political position? the president says yes. >> at least in private. is the reaction from republicans for the president's latest remarks? >> in private?

i think republicans of those i interacted with have grown near to this. the vast majority of sort of inside the belt way of washington establishment republicans at least are you know privately embarrassed by this. on the other hand, they would rather have trump in office and nominating brett brett kavanaugh and cutting taxes. they see the bombast and culture war and frenzy and as unfortunate but perhaps necessary and working and so they keep their mouths shut. >> liz, after the president's go back to your country tweet. you wrote a piece to focus on race. the campaign uses the strategy, it worked back in 2016, 2020 may be a different matter, how so? >> well, i think this

specifically attack on baltimore really reminds me of 2016 how the trump campaign talks about how they want to suppress black voters and saying things like oh what do you have to lose and democrats have changed condition, places in chicago. what we saw in 2018, even though trump tried to change the conversation away from preexisting conditions and questions about his own behavior and things like caravans coming to america and birthrates citizenships. that's something he was doing thought would help him win and it just did not. going forward is unclear that this is just the silver blet bullet for him. it is sort of his one move.

>> charlie savage and yamiche thank you so much. >> first congressman cleaver thinks the push to impeach the president, where it heads next. t ♪ let's go! ♪ woman: (on phone) discover. hi. do you have a travel card? yep. our miles card. earn unlimited 1.5 miles and we'll match it at the end of your first year. nice! i'm thinking about a scuba diving trip. woman: ooh! (gasp) or not. you okay? yeah, no, i'm good. earn miles. we'll match 'em at the end of your first year. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, yeahmm. exactly.od. so you only pay for what you need. nice. but, uh...

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right now the white house defending president trump's new tweets, taking aim at representative elijah cummings in his maryland district. white house chief of staff mick mulvaney saying today the

comments have nothing to do with race. >> i think it's right for the president to raise the issue. look, i was in congress for six years. if i had poverty in my district like they have in baltimore, if i had crime in my direct or homelessness like they do in san francisco and i spend all of my time in washington, d.c. chasing down this mueller investigation, this bizarre impeachment crew side, i would get fired. i think the president is right to raise that. it has absolutely zero to do with race. >> sir, you just her mick mulvaney say the president's comments have nothing to do with race. and you read the tweets. do you believe that? >> no, it's difficult to believe that because he deserves the most nasty group of adjectives for people of color. i think that can be proven very easily. the footage is all over the world. is t the way he talked about the

living conditions in baltimore and home area of elijah cummings -- who, by the way, had is a phi beta kappa, one of the most intelligent individuals who has ever served in congress. but back to this whole issue, i think he describes african countries in a certain way, south american countries in a certain way and you don't hear that, for example, of european. i don't call people racists. even if i believe down to the core i am they are, only because if i call somebody a racist, we put a cheeld up, curtain up. we could have our communications would have to stop. but what he said i don't think can be confused with racially sensitive words and it's so hurtful to hear him do it.

i grew up in public housing. as what i read about see liejel cummings, and i think about my 97-year-old father putting four kids through college, it made me angry. >> yes. let me ask a question with a bit of a different spin to it. do you think the president is racist or is he simply using race as a strategy for 2020? or is it even impossible to separate those two? >> well, i think the president is racially insensitive. you know, i don't know what his heart is like. i know what his words are like. his words are racially insensitive and damaging and hurtful for us, for people like me. and i think that it may be worse than being a racist, if that's what people want to call him, because he may be doing it for

political benefit. what does that say? it says number one that he doesn't care. he can say that about attacking a whole group of people, americans, by the way, and do so with impunity of people supporting him. the worst part is there are people who defend him and who think what he's saying is perfectly okay. that i think is just so utterly corrupt that it makes me so i don't want to even be around those individuals. >> i bet. i want to look back at a couple of weeks ago when you abandoned your chair while presiding over the house due to the fighting back against trump's tweets in the squad. >> i came in here trying to do this in a fair way, i warned both sides, let's not do this, but we don't ever, ever want to pass up an opportunity, it

seems, to escalate. and that's what this is. i dare anybody to look at any of the footage and see if there was any unfairness, but unfairness was not enough. because we want to just fight. i abandon the chair. >> i'm sorry, i will repeat this. i want you to walk us through this moment and tell us what is clear, you had enough of the division. what will it take to bring more civility back to politics? >> it will take the voters, and that's what troublesome. members of congress, as you know, alex, we're measured by a every organization. we're measured by labor, by corporate america, and so forth. nobody rates us based on our civility, how we function in

congress. so the public is okay, it seems, of sendsing people to washington who are nasty and they try to be nasty in order to win re-election. we have members of congress i think with great intentionality create an opportunity to say something nasty. and in that division we're having, i -- >> can i ask you, when you say they're going to create something to be nasty, are they doing it to try to score points with constituents? do they believe that reflects the values of their voters? are they doing it because they're trying to put something forth like a click bait to play out on social media and get attention to their name? what is behind it? >> all of the above. i think there are voters who are like that who actually want members of congress to go and scream and cultivate that. there's plenty of evidence to support that. i think the other thing is many

people come in and deep down in their hearts, that's who they are. they know, they use culpable names. now we have somebody in the white house, somebody who's actually become ablab atory, someone who comes out and blabs every day and say things about people but never about russia. but we're in a horrible situation right now. not a single parent watching this show whether they're republican, democrat, or a patriot, will tell their children, okay, the president is getting ready to speak, come in and watch him and listen to the way you want to conduct yourself. nobody, no parent will do that. >> i got to tell you, that is sad and you're 100% right there. sir, before we wrap up, i do want to ask you about impeachment in the push of the wake of robert mueller's testimony wednesday.

the judicial chair jerry nadler said impeachment articles are before his committee and it comes at least 100, by last account, democrats support an impeachment inquiry. i know, sir, you're not on that list. how has mueller's testimony, anything that happened with all of the events this week, actually pushed you closer to that point? >> i do support now an impeachment investigation, which is what this would turn out to be. it's not impeachment. i'm not ready to sign off on articles of impeachment but i think we need to go the investigatory route so we can use the effort almost like a grand jury or an investigation that would be an instrument to present information tot grand jury to t -- to the grand jury. we have to be very, very careful as democrats because if we jump

to conclusions, we can end up in a brow patch. let's do this methodically. nancy pelosi has been masterful. in 16 months we can get him out, unless we make some stupid errors. >> rentive manuel cleaver, as we discussed in the commercial break, great weather there in kansas city. get out and enjoy your time. coming up, bernie sanders is in canada. you will find out why next. hmm. exactly. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. nice. but, uh... what's up with your... partner? not again. limu that's your reflection. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪

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let's go to the 2020 contenders, bernie sanders goes on a bus ride from detroit to make a point about prescription drug prices, the destination, canada. shaq is joining us from canada. we known sanders has done it before. why is he doing it today? >> he's trying to highlight a problem that still exists today and he calls criminal. so he took a bus trip over who

people that are have die bities and on life-saving insulin and go to canada to buy this drug. they say they would normally pay $350 to $400 for a bottle of insulin that lasts just a week or two. here they get it $35 to $40. one family saving $10,000. this is all part of senator and sanders push into health care as we head into the debate. we heard his medicare for all. much he's also getting ready for next week's debate, he wants to focus on health care because he believes it's an issue that separates him from many of the other candidates. alex? >> i have to tell you for someone who depends on literally insulin to keep your life, saving $10,000 a year is extraordinary. that's what you got from the women speaking with you on the bus, that's how much they could save just by crossing the border a few miles? >> just by crossing the border. these are families, one family,

she and her husband were college graduates. they had means. she talked about how she went a few days without electricity because she want able to send money on insulin back in the united states. she drove six hours to join this bus ride. she's still undecided when you talk politically about who to support but she valued the fact senator sanders was going on this trip and the high cost of prescription drugs. >> that's a brutal choice to make, cut electricity because let's remind people, insulin has to stay in a cool storage. shaq, thank you very much. nearly 150 african-americans served in the obama administration. coming up, what they say in "the washington post" op-ed that they many pro-is to be heard and vow to make this country a better place. with drivewise. it lets you know when you go too fast... ...and brake too hard.

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we have impeachment resolutions before the committee. we're conducting investigations to determine whether we should report those impeachment resolutions to the house or whether we should draft our own and report them to the house. and we're considering those resolutions and we will make a determination after we get more evidence. >> how judiciary chair there, jerry nadler, with his new revelations on where the impeachment process stands in his committee. he also pushed back against the idea that a decision forrer fromming articles of impeachment

must be reached by september. let's bring in the founder and chair of the aggressive group southpaw mission and former gubernatorial candidate, columnist from daily beast, lucy del percio, and all msnbc analysts. john, how you interpret these developments if the judiciary committee is in the process of reaching a decision on impeachment articles, does that not lock them into going all in or just folding at some point? >> it's a real problem. they're in a tight spot in the democratic party, especially since jerry nadler is now saying moving forward depends on getting evidence. that's what he said this morning, new evidence. and the white house is stonewalling. so it's not clear where that new evidence is going to come from. a lot of democrats believe there's already sufficient evidence to move forward. i think the initial reaction to

mueller is the movie wasn't as good as the move and it might have set back impeachment. after a couple of days, it became clear that there is real hunger in the democratic party to move forward on this and hold this criminal president accountable. >> you have to think jerry nadler is in a bit of a quandary because he said personally he thought this president did impeachable evidence six ways to sunday. and now one of the biggest and loudest voices, in fact, for the house, the president won by a fraction in 2016 but it was enough to deliver him the state certainly. what is the sentiment on the ground today from your perspective? do you think democrats at all risk overplaying their hand after faring better in 2018? >> look, i think there are a couple of things to parse out here. the first as your previous guest talked about, nobody wants a president to have to explain to

their kids, so this idea that somehow that donald trump doesn't bring obscenity in the office, that doesn't change. he, in fact, is doubling down. and we don't governor for the present but the sffuture. it's clear he has committed impeachmentable defenses but we need to deal with the future. and for this case for congress, that means going through impeachment. >> let's play a clib from congressman tlaib that discusses an argument she's making for impeachment. take a listen to her. >> i think there's a caution whether or not they're going to win. but i remind people the watergate class, and this is the largest incoming class since watergate, ironically, did not rely on whether or not that this would go through the senate. they did what was right for the country. put it before political strategy and polling. and they said is this a

constitutional crisis? do we need to move forward? and they did. >> this seems to be the big million dollar question here, how shaw a moral case for impeachment be weighed against political strategy? why do republicans and democrats think about this morality question so differently? >> you heard me say as someone who thought marilyn garland should have had a hearing speaking out against the republicans, i thought those who stood up against the president was correct in declaring a national emergency and more should have voted for them. this was the same case. this is their governance. this is their constitutional responsibility. we have been having this conversation for three months now. what are the powers waiting for? they're supposed to do their job. if they believe there are unpeachable offenses, start impeachment. it's been three months and all we had was robert mueller

testify. they've gotten nowhere. they are denied appearances so they're going to the court to force them to testify but the american people deserve more. this is a question about governance. it's one of the reasons i thought it was great nancy pelosi became speaker, is that she knew how to govern. and we're not seeing that for political reasons. when people ask me because they know i'm harsh on the republican party, especially donald trump, why aren't you a democrat? the democrats are not leading by example either. >> alex, i think some people might be misreading the politics here. so politics are important. impeachment as gerald ford said is fundamentally a political process. so there's nothing wrong with nancy pelosi assessing the politics. i have great respect for her and why i'm a little hesitant to challenge her on they are political assessment. she needs to take care of the swing districts that brought her the speakership in the first

place. right now they don't favor impeachment. for instance only two members of the entire congressional delegation favor impeachment. but what's bothering me is i think people are making a lazy-minded assumption about how the trial in the senate would go the assumption right now, which everybody seems to accept, when the senate acquits trump, which everybody thinks they will, he will say see, they tried to impeach me and failed. it will be a negative for democrats. i don't see it that way. if hiee's itcmpeached in the ho even if not by senate, it will hurt him in 2020. in the hearings you noticed not a single republican tried to abut the charges. all they could do is change the subject, confusion gps or whatever they wanted to talk

about. during the impeachment trial, they will not be able to be do that. they will have to say he did not commit impeachable offenses. and i don't think people understand how it would play out if they go to trial. >> i think you would see more support for impeachment if the figurehead of the democratic party wasn't against it. we haven't seen it and then we hear the numbers, there are 101 members of congress for impeachment and 134 against it. they're not against it, they just haven't said they're for it. yet. there's a lot of room for change. >> critically if you pay attention to what's happening on the ground, people need a reason why. and right now our message has been a little muddled. we are seeing some things coming out of the left wing of the party and something coming from the party leadership. what we need to do is clearly lay out the case. the mueller hearings were

important but what came out of that clearly and should be talking about, had he not been president of the united states and protecting his office, he would be charged and that's a fact. and saying congress, stand up and do your job. i think that's time we give that reason to the people on the ground and people in congress. >> bill, do you think the forces have helped elect a president in 2016? are they still active? would that change with impeachment? >> i think when it comes to donald trump, the reality of the matter is everybody knows who he is and everybody has an opinion. i think that opinion, we keep making this mistake of trying to compare the 2020 election with 2016. do you remember talking about trump in 2016 the going argument is he would change once he came into office, he would be more presidential. if anything, he's gotten even worse. so the people who made the difference on getting him elected, those soccer moms in places like michigan are looking at him saying he's not presidential at all. if i have to explain that to my

kids, you can't say that just because the president did, that will not change because we decided to stand up and take care of the problem, which is likely he did something illegal. the only body that can do something about it right now is congress. >> abdul, jonathan alter, thank you very much. great conversation. it was an opportunity for 150 african-americans who served in the obama administration. why they say they're patriots who will make america better. we will talk to one of the co-authors next. ♪ let's go! ♪

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new criticism today following the president's latest twitter attacks. nearly 150 african-americans who served in former president barack obama administration are calling out trump's attacks on four women of color saying we refuse to sit idly by. reading this op-ed there were couple of points where i teared up. it was very emotional. it was very powerful. tell me where the idea for this op-ed began. >> thanks for having me,

awelcomes. this idea came from a former member of the administration who and i should say that most of the people who have served in the obama administration remain connected in varying ways. we use technology. one of our colleagues said i've had enough. this is unacceptable. i wake up in america every day and the president of the united states is attacking us. many of us chimed in. i chimed in and talked about just having the conversation the day before with someone about being eight years old and at a church camp being told i didn't belong there and i needed to go back to africa. many of us said what can we do. she suggested why not try an especial op-ed to get the ball rolling. >> i know he didn't have a heads up but the president as in president obama tweeted his endorsement of your op-ed saying

he is proud of his team accomplishment and how they are ko continuing to fight for an america that's better. what message do you think his tweet does send? >> it sends a message for us that he continues to acknowledge the ways that we serve and the ways we served during his administration with pride. we put our heads down and get to the work. if you need us to be loud and strong about the work we're doing on behalf of americans that we continued since his administration then we should do that. it was definitely a proud moment for the president to acknowledge that we continue in the legacy that we created together during his administration. to do the work on behalf of american people with pride and with class. >> do you think the president, as in president obama, should he be speaking up more in.

>> i think the president has given eight years of his life to this public and it's time for the rest of us to pick up the mantle and do the work. it's not his responsibility to carry the yiunited states of america on his shoulders. our ancestors did that for us. we know what to do. we need to not keep our heads down when we have someone sitting in the white house who disrespects us daily and challenges our americanness and right to be in the country. >> i really got choked up reading it because you end it by saying expect to hear more from us. we plan to leave this country better than we found it. this is our home. how do you plan to fight back against what you call this poisoning of our democracy?

>> absolutely. after living here for 25 years woke up in baltimore, maryland this morning, had to face my daughters and explain to them what mommy was writing about and why mommy was pushing harder than she already does to make sure every child in america has access to quality education and make sure every american has access to the ballot booths, to make sure we have health care across this great country. these are things that we've been fiegi in fighting for during the administration and since the administration. we're calling on our fellow americans to resist hate, homophobia. we're asking people to register a friend. we see when we all vote campaign coming out of the first lady's office. former first lady michelle obama, she's always my first lady, telling us where we can register to vote. we have different initiatives telling people how they can run for office and not wait their

turn. all four of them models for young women and all people of color to say you don't have to wait your turn to lead. you step in right now. >> you said that baltimore made you despite the fact that president trump has really assaulted your city. tell me what baltimore means to you. >> yes. i came to baltimore when i was 16 to attend the morgan state university. morgan state university helped to raise little old me to be as successful as i could be. i've been here 25 years since. again i raised my three daughters here. baltimore is place where there's a lot of love and a lot of strength and the insinuation from the white house that we are less than human because we want to live here or subhuman living among rodents is per poreposter. it lacks intelligence. it makes me wonder how someone

with such simple ideas about racism and humanity would be serving this country as the president of the united states. i will continue to fight as we do in baltimore. as we did in brooklyn, where i'm from. as i do in d.c. every day to make sure every american is seen and heard and valued. it's incredible that anyone would say otherwise about a great city. we have our challenges. we don't pretend to not understand the work that we need to do but we do it with pride and with see what it would behoove the president to see us as well. as the old saying does, one monkey doesn't stop a show. we're going to keep moving and doing the work on behalf of women and our fellow citizens. >> thank you for your time. it was a pleasure to speak with you. >> for more reaction i'm going to speak with reverend al in just about 15 minutes. also, democratic presidential candidate marianne williamson will join me to talk about what to expect at this week's debates. what to expect as

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doubling down. president trump launches new attacks today on representative elijah cummings, so what's the motive? the new spin from the white house about robert mueller's testimony. taking the stage. the most googled 2020 candidate after the first democratic presidential debate. marianne williamson joins me to talk strategy two days before

the match up. welcome to weekends with alex witt. we have new developments on two major stories. a new revelation from the democrat in charge of starting the impeachment prosays and fresh reaction as the president attacks the chairman of the oversight committee, elijah cummings. first, now 100 house democrats supporting impeachment proceedings and the chair of the house judiciary committee is ve revealing his personal view on whether the president should be impeached. >> my personal view is that he deserves impeachecachmentimpeac. he's violated the law six ways from sunday. that's not the question. the question is can we develop enough evidence to put before american people. we have to do this whatever time frame there is and we're doing it now. we're engaged in investigation into these different alleged crimes. >> the house has now in recess until september so my colleague asked adam schiff is there a

moment when impeachment would be too late? >> justice delayed is justice denied. they are doing everything they can to obstruct the congressional investigation. there may get to alook, he is violating a different provision of the constitution by obstructing the congress in its lawful and constitutional duty. that would not be a crime. that would be a misdemeanor. there would be a deadline because we will either get the answers we need or the president's obstruction would be so complete that becomes a ground for his impeachment. >> also developing new attacks from the president who is accusing chairman cummings is hurt innocent people and divide the country. the democrats also place the race card when they have done so little for our nation's great african-american people. the acting white house chief of staff defending the president

for labeling the district a disgusting rat and rodent infested mess. >> i understand that everything that donald trump says is offensive to some people. keep in mind about two weeks ago the president said things that were critical of aoc and her squad as accused of being a racist. a couple of days later nancy pelosi said something critical and she was defended by the media and by folks on the left for not being racist. >> no human being would want to live there. this is being perceived as racist. do you understand why? >> i understand why. that doesn't mean it's racist. the president is pushing back what he sees as wrong opinion it's how he's done in the past and will continue to do it in future. >> the only republican african-american in the house is drawing a distinction between the president's attacks on cummings and telling four congresswomen of color to go back. >> you can condemned the go back tweets but you do not condemn the tweets by the president. >> i wouldn't be doing those.

i think they are different. also, elijah cummings is someone who i worked with closely on all kinds of legislation. he's someone that cares passionately about his community and has been working tirelessly his entire adult life on behalf of his country and his community. he's someone that he can defend himself. >> listen to what congresswoman tlaib thinks of the president going after cummings. >> our president has a hate agenda. he doesn't have a policy agenda. this hate agenda is seeping into policy making. this is a crooked ceo in the white house that is making decisions based on profit, based on his friends and his trump organization, his for profit industry would benefit from versus what is best for american people. this hate agenda, we're not going to get bayplayed here. we can see it from far away that he's incompetent. he hasn't been able to follow through on the promises he's made and people are hurting more

and more. >> this is putting republicans like will hurd in a difficult position. you don't see a lot of them coming forward. the president is doubling down, tripling down, picking up that baton. continuing to tweet over the course of the evening and into this morning. taking out after elijah cummings and now nancy pelosi. alleging some things about inside her san francisco district similar to what he's talking about with elijah cummings. mick mulvaney is making the rounds. their defense of the president boils down to this. he was not being a racist. he was hitting back at elijah cummings because he had treated the acting secretary of homeland security very poorly in a hearing on july 18th about ten days ago. misrepresenting the facts on the ground with regards to the migrant community, where they are being kept in the detention centers along the southern boarder. not with standing the fact the

inspector general from the department of homeland security has been very critical of the conditions there as well as have other third party inspectors who have been through there. mick mulvaney defending the president today. trying to get back on offense. the president is an equal opportunity retaliator. here is a bit more of what he had to say. >> i think it's right for the president to raise the issue. i was in congress for six years. if i had poverty in my district like they have in baltimore. if i had crime like in chicago and homelessness like in san francisco and i spent all of my time in washington, d.c. chasing down this mueller investigation, i'd get fired. i think the president is right to raise that. it has zero to do with race. >> reporter: couple of things to point out, washington, chicago, other inner cities are not the only distressed areas in this country. many of them are represented by

republicans. the president, we haven't seen tweet in the last couple of hours. he's another his golf property in northern virginia for the second consecutive day. >> always good perspective at the end of your report. thank you so much there. joining me now, betsy woodruff and jeff mason. give me your interpretation on how this is all unfolding. >> chief of staff mulvaney has introduced a significant straw man argument on one of those sunday shows where he suggested the only thing cummings is doing is working on oversight of the executive branch. that's factually incorrect. he's spent a huge amount of his time focused on description drug prices. something he highlighted on twitter yesterday and something the president himself says is a

top priority. thest ki it's kind of thing that could result in bipartisan cooperation especially given the huge problem people of this country have. especially necessary medications like insulin and inhalers. it's just factually inaccurate. this is not unusual from this white house when it comes from efforts the try to engage in rhetorical contortions to criticize opponents. it's not usual. it's not outside the norm and all white houses sometimes will use these kind of tactics but many this case it just bears repeating that the claims the chief of staff made are incorrect. >> what stands out to you? >> a couple of things.

he doesn't like to be criticized. he felt representative cummings was criticizing him with his tough questioning of the homeland security officials. that's how the president fights back. that's what white house officials say all the time. that's what the chief of staff was saying just now. he's dismissing the racial overtones because he's suggesting this is how the president reacts. it's clearly a part of the president's play book. be it somebody on the other side. be it the squad. he attacks like this and doesn't take into account the impact it can have on communities and certainly doesn't take into account what some people would criticize. we don't hear this that often, whether or not it's considered presidential. >> yeah. president's go back to your countries tweet. the republicans defended the

president. they insisted the remarks were based on ideology and not on race. how much does this latest out burst undercut that argument? >> look, it's consistent with the president's pattern of going after or being especially pointed and you might even argue emotional when going after critics who also happen to be people of color. when the president uses certain vocabulary words. the term infestation that has been pointed out widely. he almost exclusively uses it to refer to african-american and hispanic communities in the united states. as was pointed out earlier on this program, it's one thing to try to assess what's going on in the president's head. it's another thing to look at the patterns and the vocabulary that he uses and identify the consistency with which he singles out people and communities of color for this type of criticism. he seems to make a

differentiation between white critics and black and hispanic critics. that's a pattern that's been consistent thus far. >> how do you think this -- when -- ooip not going to ask you to get into the president's head but does this come down to the president's base? is this a strategy? can you envision him as he starts his tweet to think this will play well to my base or is it reactionary? >> it's hard to answer that question. i think it's probably a bit of both. i'm quite confident the president thinks about his base a lot. i'm sure that's part of his calculation. i think he does consider strategy. there's polling that suggests these types of comments and tweets have helped him and helped approval ratings with supporters of president trump.

you may have officials who say this is not about the president trying to stir up things with regard to race, but that pattern is there. there's no suggestion when he's told or pointed out to him there's racial overtones that something he wants to learn from and change. instead he continues in that pattern. it's pretty hard not to deduce it's strategic. >> do you think this might be in retaliation for elijah cummings, house oversight committee or subpoenaing the e-mails and texts from white house staffers that will include those of ivanka and jared kushner. >> it could be. when the president feels attacked as he has said and his supporters and advisers have said, he will attack back. that request could have been seen as an attack and seen by

him and the others around him as justification for pouncing back really hard. >> chairman nadler said they are not bound by a deadline. do you have a sense there will be a time for impeachment proceedings to be too late? >> well, i don't think every one around the chairman necessarily agrees with that. i know there's one comment if the process doesn't start by september that it's too late. there were a lot foeflks saying after mueller hearings it's time to move on. clearly chairman nadler doesn't want to move on. i think he will continue and i think his point is, look, this isn't about an election. this is about standing up for the principles of the

constitution and dealing with that. whether or not there's a deadline looming. not every one in his party agrees with that. i suspect one of the people who doesn't is nancy pelosi. >> okay. jeff mason and betsy woodruff. i understand we lost her audio after her great second answer. a little lheavy on you. thank you for picking it out. >> thank you so much. democratic presidential candidate marianne williamson on trump attacks, impeaching the president. that's next. tacks, impeaching t president. that's next. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. nice! but uh, what's up with your partner? oh! we just spend all day telling everyone how we customize car insurance because no two people are alike, so... limu gets a little confused when he sees another bird that looks exactly like him. ya... he'll figure it out. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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right now the battle for 2020 in full swing as candidates prepare for the second democratic debate. 20 candidates will be taking the stage across two nights. my next guest is one of them. joining me now, spiritual athorough and 2020 democratic candidate marianne williamson. welcome back. nice to see you. >> always great to see you. >> thank you so much. i know you're taking the stage on night one. you'll have some new opponents. any particular strategy that you have as you go into tuesday night? >> no. i just want to be myself. i feel last time i stand by my substance but i think i was a little out of my center. i want to be myself and say what i believe. >> i'm sure you'll do that. people picked up on you. you were the most googled

candidate on night two of that first series of debates. have you seen the level of interest. have you seen more intrigue into your and your candidacy hit the campaign trail? >> absolutely. when i appear in places in the various primary states, the crowds are getting bigger. people, there's so much dog and pony show. then there's the real experience of being with voters. that's what democracy is. people are ready, open, available to deep conversations. that's what we're having on this campaign. my campaign is about a deeper relationship to peace. we're having a deeper conversation about race in this country. absolutely. i'm meeting more and more people

hearing that. want to be part of that and that's moving this candidacy. >> i've been tracking you. i will say earlier you were on another broadcast and you wanted to develop a department of peace. tuesday's debate will take place in detroit. it's a city you're very familiar with. there's an op-ed you wrote about what it's like to raise your daughter in gross pointe. tell them what you note specifically when it came to education. >> you know, i was asked to write that op-ed for cnn where i was connecting some human experience i've had and how that has influenced my politics. an experience i had when my daughter was going to gross pointe south, a very fine high school was there were people who lived in detroit. this is a problem. this is something i'm talking about a lot in my campaign. we base our educational funding primarily on property taxes. this is wrong. this is immoral. it means children who live in

advantaged neighborhoods stand a very good chance of a high quality public education in but people who not live in financially advantaged neighborhoods does not. there were people living in detroit and several families would try to rent an apartment in gross pointe so their kids could go do better high school. it was devastating when they could get caught. what was their crime? they wanted their children to have a better education and how devastating this would be for the children when they had to leave school. that impacted me. it imprinted something on my heart. i knew if i ever had a chance to make a difference, i would. that's what i'm trying to do right now. >> as i think about that story i'm trying to think what that was there are offense. they were renting something so that meant they were paying some sort of taxes whether to landlord or whatever you would think that some of that went to the city. what would you want to do if you

are elected president? how would you address this issue? >> every school in america and if i'm ever president of the united states, every school will be a palace of learning and culture and the arts. this is a civil rights issue fo. we have millions of american children who go to school every day. in schools that don't have the adequate school supplies with which to teach a child to read. if a child cannot learn to read by the age of eight, the chances of high school graduation are drastically decreased and the chances of incarceration are drastically increased. these are millions of american children. there should be a federal standard mandated that every school no matter ha the neighborhood, this is -- when you with hold given we're the richest country in the world. for us to with hold education from a child is a passive form of oppression, in my mind. if every citizen is to be able

to pursue happiness, where the the chance for this child to pursue happiness. we have millions of american children whose psychologist believe have a form of ptsd that is as severe as the ptsd as a returning veteran. we have millions of american children who go to school every day and they are hungry. they ask the teacher if maybe you have some food for me. this is here in the united states. what i see is i go through the country and every state i visit. we have the early childhood experts. we have the people who know who to do to help these children. this has to begin with birth. they are experts in childhood

and in youth but they are not funded. they say probably 10 to 15%. this similimmoral. >> may i ask a bit about the head li headlines with the president lashing out at elijah cummings. what is your message to the president over these tweets? >> my message is not to the president except we'll get you for this stuff. my message is to the american people. be very careful and know what this is. this is beyond racism. this beyond just weaponizing tweets. this is the work of a serious soc sociopathic demagogue. he makes warning shots. you in any way mess with me, he

says, i'm coming after you. that's why so many republicans will not take him on. that's why so many republicans chose not to run again. that's what the political establishment fails to understand. they are taking a knife to a gunfight with this man. this man is coming after anyone who dares to criticize him. mick mulvaney when he said what elijah cummings said was wrong. he didn't say it was inaccurate. when the president tweeted this morning a congressional tour already establishing that those detention centers are clean and well run, no they didn't. we have had experts talking about the terrible conditions. the lying here is extremely dangerous. it's not just what i want to say to the president. i hope that every american realizes we have a problem on our hands and we need to treat this very, very seriously. >> i'm just going to offer

suggestion. bottle up what you just did here and bring that on tuesday night. peelle will be listening. >> thank you so much. a new normal. reverent al sharpton will join me with a reaction to the president's tweets. me with a reaction to the president's tweets gar, but it can be difficult to find a balanced solution. try great-tasting boost glucose control. the patented blend of protein, fat, and carbs is part of a balanced formula that's clinically shown to help manage blood sugar levels. in fact, it provides 60% more protein than the leading diabetes nutrition shake and contains only 1 carb choice. enjoy the balanced nutrition of boost glucose control as part of a healthy diet. whenso if you find your.com, you get troom at a lower rate,tee. hilton is like... we're gonna match that rate and give you an extra 25% off. what would travel sites do if you found a different price? that's not my problem, it's your problem. book at hilton.com and get the hilton price match guarantee.

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the political world is reckrec reckonning as the president attacks the most senior member of congress. reverend al sharpton joining us now. he's host of politics nation. you n you're not here with me in studio. the reality check in your mind on the president this morning accusing democrats of playing the race card and doing quote, so little for african-americans. what is that about? >> well, i think it goes back to his rhetoric of saying african-americans should vote for him. they have nothing to lose. look at what has happened in the two and a half years that he has been in. he promised to help hbcus. that's not materialized. he has really not made any efforts in terms of he's a businessman of increasing the

amount of contracts and business relationships of the african-american community has. i think the most appalling, alex, is he has systematically supported the undercutting of voting rights. he claimed there were voter fraud. had this big ended up dissolving. now when there's evidence there was russian interference with the voting he does nothing and the republicans block bills just this week that would deal with that. i'm in atlanta, georgia. the home of the civil rights movement of the '60s. there was nothing more important than voting rights. how can this president even talk about doing something for black americans when he has tacidly supported my measure that suppressed our votes. >> donald trump takes credit for

lowering the unemployment rate among the african-american community in this country. can he make that claim or was he raiding the tail winds of barack obama's policies? >> clearly he was riding the tail winds and any number of studies have shown that the unemployment level of every one was going down and in some cases down at faster pace under president obama. he just kind of rode the wave. he's the kind of guy that if he was a surfer he takes credit for the wave rather than stay on his surf. even in a good economy, blacks are still doubly unployed unem whites. black unemployment is at 6%. what is president trump's program to close the racist gap in employment? close the race gap in

procurements. the evidence he's riding the wave is ask him what is his strategy to close the gap. he has none. at the same time he keeps talking about infestation only when he lerefers the people of color. if it's haithaiti, baltimore. we're in infested but the special dehumanizing, subhuman titles that he uses for people of color. that's as racist as the day is long. >> you nknow, we heard mick mulvaney argue the president's attacks had zero to do with race. the president was actually responded to criticism from chairman cummings on the deteriorating conditions on the border. do you buy that explanation at all all? >> if i bought it then he would have to explain why the president reserves these less than human titles for people of color. why he would attack congressman

cummings district which clearly is a district that has aspiring people, well educated people and why he stereo types everybody the same way when they are non-white and especially black. we don't buy that. if he wanted to disagree with mr. cummings, why doesn't he disagree like speaker pelosi or senator schumer. he doesn't call their constituents infested with rodents. he doesn't equate them with insects. he deals with them, their policies even he calls them a name. he attacks the base community playing into the suggestive bias of people that all blacks do is live around rats and roaches and are uneducated and carry onto criminalalty and all of that. if you deal with the frame work of the attack and compare it to the frame work he does of those that he attacks that's white,

anyone can see how he distinguishing and sharpens his attack based on who and what the person is. >> i want to you about former president obama's retweeting opinion piece that was signed by 149 african-american who is served in his administration. last hour i spoke with one of them who co-wrote that piece. we are african-americans. we are patriots. the mere retreat twooweeting of article by the former president made headheadlines. do you wish barack obama's voice would be louder given the current environment? my guest suggested he did enough in eight years as president. what's your take in. >> i think that president obama who has always been a very deliberate and thoughtful person does not want to overshadow the process of who will face donald trump. i think he knows if he moves in any more that he would become

the shadow. he would be the shadow that is cast over whatever the nominee is. trump would try to run against obama rather than the nominee. i think he'll weigh in at the right time. i think he's being very careful not to bite the bait. president trump wants to him to bite the bait. he wants to debate this thing between him and president obama and president obama's been accused of many things. stupid is not one of them. >> absolutely right there. reverend al sharpton. you can catch the rev on saturdays and sundays at 5:00 p.m. eastern here. safe travels. claiming victory. claiming robert mueller testimony as a slam dunk. a look at what the special counsel's words actually mean. al counsel's words actually mean. making it easy for you wn to get your windshield fixed. with safelite, you can see exactly when we'll be there. saving you time

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the white house is on the defense today after robert muell mueller's testimony this week. >> mueller answered the single one outstanding question. they asked him would you have indicted the president if he were not the president. mueller said absolutely not. he would not do that. if they had the evidence to indict the president, they would have done it. they don't because there was no obstruction. >> joining me now former federal prosecutor. is that what mueller said under oath on wednesday?

>> i'm not sure what acting chief of staff mulvaney was watching but it wasn't robert muell mueller's testimony because what mueller said in substance that all the elements of obstruction of justice are there. they were committed by the president. in fact, when he told don mcgahn to fire special counsel and mcgahn said no and then he directed mcgahn to lie and claim that he, trump, never told him to fire special counsel mueller. when he told hope hicks to craft a false narrative about what really went on in the trump tower meeting between his son and his son-in-law and campaign chairman and the russians and then craziest of all when he dispatches cory lewandowski, a private citizen, to tell jeff sessions that she should shut down the probe and if he doesn't do it, then cory lewandowski,

private citizencitizen, should him. all of them constitute high crimes and misdemeanors. i don't know what mulvaney was talking about. >> we know they are claiming that mueller's hearing was a victory for them. do you think that mueller, as a prosecutor, was jst trying to be absolutely fair with his testimony. i'm not going to criticize a man or woman for being too fair. bob mueller made it clear he was motte the right person to formally accuse the president of crime. that he said, is up to congress. we all know that means impeachment. real quickly, if bob mueller had said, we have evidence that president trump walked into a bank, drew a gun, demanded money from teller, took money that didn't belong to him and fled the bank, would bob mueller have

to tell everybody he committed a bank robbery ? he laid out facts that support that the president obstructed justice and he said figuratively congress do your job. >> yeah. look, mueller are revealed the president gave inadequate and contradicting answers but other witnesses tried to impede his work. take a listen to this. >> there were many questions that you asked the president that he simply didn't answer, isn't that correct in. >> true. >> there were many answers that contradicted other evidence you had gathered during the investigation, isn't that correct? >> yes. >> by trump campaign officials and administration officials impeded your investigation? >> i would generally agree with that. >> glen, how did that affect the outcome of the investigation? >> it didn't give mueller's team everything they would have liked to have had to decide exactly

what the president's intent was. you know what, in courtrooms every day judges tell jurors you can't find intent by looking into the human mind. you have to infer intent from the surrounding circumstances and the behavior of the person on trial. what we know is president trump was deathly afraid to sit down and interview with mueller. why? one reason he had a guilty conscious. that's why he wouldn't be interviewed because he knew he would have been in even more trouble. >> we'll let that be the final word. thank you so much. mplgt reaction to the president's remarks about congressman cummings. are democrats playing into the president's hand? we'll explain that next. machine president's hand we'll explain that next. machin ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ ♪ let's go! ♪

and here we have another burst pipe in denmark. if you look close... jamie, are there any interesting photos from your trip? ouch, okay. huh, boring, boring, you don't need to see that. oh, here we go. can you believe my client steig had never heard of a home and auto bundle or that renters could bundle? wait, you're a lawyer? only licensed in stockholm.

what is happening? jamie: anyway, game show, kumite, cinderella story. you know karate? no, alan, i practice muay thai, completely different skillset. wthat's right.k pretty disappointed. buckle up. there he is. growing backlash to the president's tweets attacking congressman elijah cummings and new questions about his motives as he doubles down on his comments accusing democrats of always playing the race card. "the washington post" reporting saying the campaign seeing it as a divisive thing. seek is seeking to do the same in 2020.

welcome to you. ladies first. how could democrats avoid playing right into the president's hands with their reactions? might it be better to ignore his comments than give him what he is looking for? >> absolutely not. this is the time when everyone needs to stand up. i shudder at all of the pundits who say this is three-dimensional chess on donald trump's part. we have let archie bunker loose in the oval office. it's time to stand up when he exercises racism and sexism, xenophobic policies. it's time to stand up. it's why i signed on a letter with officials in the obama administration saying, we're not going anywhere. this is our country. we are going to defend it. we know that black and brown

people as well as our allies are going to stand up against this rhetoric, against his policies. >> i spoke with harris. it was very powerful. robert, you a robert, joe lockhart says anyone who supports a racist strategy is a racist themselves. should republicans who won't push back, should they be prepared to be held accountable, especially if this is a first glimpse of what we might expect? >> yes, certainly. i think a number of people over the last day and a half have pointed out that there are at least a dozen, maybe close to two dozen republican districts that have higher levels of poverty than elijah cummings'. rather than just saying, the

president is a racist, just hold them to account. say, mr. president, if this isn't about race, why is it then you ignore the poverty that's going -- that's actually in republican districts? why is it you ignore the high opioid levels in many republican districts? you single out elijah cummings. i thought it was interesting that on wednesday, after the hearings, he didn't go after chairman schiff, who led the judiciary committee hearing. he didn't go after jerry nadler. he didn't even go after nancy pelosi. he decided to single out elijah cummings. >> who was part of that end of the mueller hearing news conference. robert, do you think republicans who are staying silent, do they not care the president goes after people of color, as long as they think it might be to my political advantage? >> i don't know whether it's that they don't care.

i think, frankly, that they are scared of the -- of almost ele the president's base. they saw what happened to people like senator corker, senator flake and others, and they don't want to start getting tweets on the side -- from the president. yes, it's cowardice. it's basically political behind covering. i think i'm allowed to say that. >> you may. larry, in terms of political strategy at play here, is trump camp overestimating the usefulness of this approach for them? don't they risk alienating the moderates and minority voters? >> well, first of all, he doesn't have much minority voters. i don't think he will have many in 2020 either. certainly didn't in 2016. i don't think it's a matter of losing votes there. i think it's exactly what people had been identifying since 2016.

white working class voters who may have resentments for a combination of reasons, not just racial. when you speak to resentments, you connect with that base. that's what trump does very effectively. he accuses of democrats of playing the race card, which is almost amusing. was it the race card when he led the birther movement against president obama? was it the race card in charlottesville? was it the race card with all of these tweets about the squad and now congressman cummings? i kind of think that's part of it. you know? i'm old enough not to be naive anymore. >> republican will herd spoke in an interview. you took a different position on the tweets than he did with those about the squad. he said they are different cases. what's your reaction to that? are these new tweets clearly racist? do you think republicans who stand by the president must also be racist at this point? >> i think that we should stop

splitting hairs on racism. it's trying to take one -- trump's most recent comments or tweets out of context when he has as your former -- your other panelist mentioned, an entire history of racism, starting with the 1973 federal housing discrimination lawsuit against his company. he has a history of racist. tweets are racist. the language is racist. the rhetoric is supported by racist policies. we need to stop splitting hairs about racism. i will say this. not every trump supporter, whether they are the white middle class or upper middle class white voters, not every trump supporter is racist. i think that we need to start calling on them and our allies to start rebuking this racist tone. >> i'm going to have to let that be the last tone. you were referring to your colleague larry, who is one of the best political and historical professors in this

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